Color. Comfort. Connection. Community. A conversation with Denice Rochelle at the Bronze Chapter

Denice from the Bronze Chapter joins Jennie and Craig to share about her work teaching outdoor skills and belonging to People of Color in the North Sound and beyond. 

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Transcript

 📍 Welcome to the Washington State Hiking Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co-host Craig Romano. Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners, and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun, and inclusive. This episode contains adult language. Please take care while listening Our guest today is Denice Rochelle, and Denice is the founder and director of the Bronze Chapter, which exists to help all people get outdoors and into the environment through outdoor recreation. Denice, thank you so much for being here. Welcome. Thank you for inviting me here. Yeah. Great to have you on, on the program, Denice, uh- Yeah, to, so to start off, can you tell us just a little bit about your story and the Bronze Chapter? How did you come to this work, and what is it? Why does it matter? Okay. Reader's Digest condensed version. That's right. My background, from childhood background,, just happened to be unusual for a person of color. So I had a lot of privilege and a lot of access to a lot of forms of outdoor recreation that other people of color I was meeting didn't have. So,, that was in part because I grew up in Kirkland, um, in the early '70s and beyond, and at that point Kirkland was country. Kirkland was, , suburbian, rural transition, and there was plenty of open space, plenty of green space, , there. And it was mostly a white community, highly outdoor active, and my dad, who's Black, my mom's white, was down for it. He was interested in being outdoors. And so I grew up, camping and fishing and riding dirt bikes and riding bicycle and water-skiing and boating, running around freely, not worried about my wellbeing. You know, we didn't lock doors. Nobody was stealing my bicycle. None of that was happening. So I grew up with a lot of freedom and just felt oneness with outside. And when I was born, my mom took me, to the ocean and taught me how to walk on the shoreline of the ocean. So I've always been connected to the ocean. She always took me to parks, and I learned to walk in parks, so that's just how I grew up. But when we were out doing whatever my family was doing, it was interesting to me that other people weren't looking like us., Where were the Black people, unless they were with us, and where were the mixed race people also? So- Yeah ... it was just a space that I- Just was in. Naturally, it was my space. I grew up in that space. When I took classes to learn things or workshops, I was usually the only Black woman there- Mm-hmm ... or just the only person of color there, and that's been pretty much the case most of my life. Mm-hmm. So, , I left Kirkland after high school and I moved back to Seattle, and not much of that changed. Still the things that I was interested in, I was likely gonna be the only one in that space. Mm-hmm. And,, so the years go by. In 2018, I took a road trip to visit a friend in California, and I was just kind of looking at the map going, "Wow, I'm out here on this solo road trip. My car is pretty new. I can go anywhere. I'm not gonna probably get stuck." And so I just said, "Wow, I wanna get with the... I wanna, you know, hike with the redwoods. I wanna go camping. I wanna get on the ocean. I wanna fly my kite. I wanna poke around in all these small towns and do all the things that I love to do," and I had the time. So that's what I did. The trip was-ish 22, 2,300 miles. And the thing that caught my attention was that I was usually the only one who looked like me where I was, even still. Mm-hmm. And,, I never saw another family of color or single person of color hiking in the redwoods, camping the places I camped, on the beach, touring. And so one of the nights at the campground I was in in the redwoods, I popped open my... lit a fire and popped open my Pacifico, and I was just kinda thinking about why that is. Um, you know, it was just so beautiful out here. I was just thinking that, "Wow, it would be so great to share this beauty with other people," and here I am sitting around this fire pit with these trees around me by myself, and what's going on? So when I got home, I jumped on Facebook on some of the affinity groups that I was in, and I said, "Hey, I took this trip., This is how long it was. This is who I didn't see, you guys." And why is that? Yeah, yeah. Because I had known that there were, there are thousands of people, thousands of people in these Black and brown affinity outdoor groups, and I didn't understand the disconnect of why so many people in those groups, but still- I'm not seeing people outdoors. And it's not like I was doing a Craig and being a million miles out in the wilderness, right? I'm like, I'm accessible. Yeah. I'm at accessible public places. And so people started responding, and I didn't expect that. And so I jotted down their responses, and they all fell into three categories. And the three categories were, "I got no one to go with. Don't feel comfortable going by myself," so lack of community. , "I got no stuff, got no equipment," so lack of resources. And, "I don't know how to do stuff." Lack of skills. And I was like, wow, that ... Those three things weren't something I dealt with, that weren't ... They weren't barriers to me since I was a kid. And so I was telling my husband about this,, who was also very into trail running at the time. He and Craig crossed some paths. Y- yeah, listeners, that's how we met. Actually, Denice and I have known each other for a while from our running club. So yeah, we've had lots of conversations about this. Yes, yes. And I love trail running, and I'm suck at it. , My endurance is not like Craig's. So, um- Relatable ... my husband said- Right? Yeah. We can talk about that. Um- It's not gonna last forever. I, I ... Every day I pray that, "Hey, this is great. Keep going." Okay. But endurance is something to talk about. I would like to talk about fitness because that is a, a challenge in our community, too. So my husband said, "What are you gonna do about it?" Also an expression that I didn't expect. What do you mean, what am I gonna do about it? So I was thinking, well, what can I do about it? And I realized, well, I could rent some campgrounds, see who could chip in. We could share the cost, and I could offer to teach people basic outdoor skills and how to camp, and we could come together as peers and learn from each other. So if somebody else had a skill, "Oh, hey, you do this this way. This is how you light fire. This is how I light fire." And we all come together and we engage in peer learning for the purpose of helping each other, get out. And so that's what I started doing in 2018 and, you know, it was a small grassroots self-funded effort, and it was going really well, and then COVID came down upon us and then when things cleared up a little bit in that space, people were feeling a little better about connecting again, I got some questions about, "Hey, Denice, are you still interested in, in, you know, doing that thing, facilitating some gatherings?" And I said, "Sure, let's, let's do it." So I started again and, , the groups were getting bigger. They were slowly getting bigger, and I was getting worried as the groups got bigger because we had just got a house and I was like, "Ooh, I'm feeling a little exposed liability-wise." And because part of my other life is working in legal, in the legal industry, I was like, "Ooh, I know that this is a real thing." Yeah. That led to me, creating the Bronze Chapter, um, as a nonprofit and- Mm-hmm ... I initially did that as a li- as a protective veil. And at the time I didn't see the bigger picture of what that could mean, and how that could present other opportunities for community, um, meaning partnerships with other organizations and opportunities to, benefit from grants and funding and things like that. So that's really what led to the creation of the Bronze Chapter. The core reason I created the Bronze Chapter was because ever since I was a kid in the '70s, you know, when Earth Day started in 1970, I think I was an or- I think I was an original, like, Earth Day-er, tree hugger. And I've always been concerned about the planet, about the Earth, and it just broke my heart. It, like, hurt my soul when I would see people litter or pluck cigarette butts out the window or, you know, do anything like that. And, and that never went away, that soul feeling I have, that soul care for the environment , and the Earth, and people. I actually really like people. And so my hope was that through the Bronze Chapter I could create a space where not only could more people of color have more confidence and,, be outside more skillfully, but hopefully that connection would lead to connection to the nature and the natural world that we were in, and hopefully that would lead to greater care for the space. So- Hopefully, you know, our greater care for ourselves and each other would translate to greater care for the surroundings that we were in. And that's, that's kind of the secret sauce behind the Bronze chapter that most people don't know, because I really don't talk about it enough. Well, I'm glad you're talking about it here. Yeah, and I, I think that would, you know, put you, put your organization kind of standing out from so many other organizations that it's just not about recreation. Uh, you know, it's about the whole, preservation and, sustainability and giving back. And, , D- I'm a little bit older than you, but I understand what you're saying 'cause I'm a product of that same. I grew up in the '70s. There was so much more of a connectiveness to, you know, the earth and b- And I see, and I've talked about this a lot, and younger listeners may, may disagree with me, but I think that's a big disconnect with a lot of the recreation movement of today. It's more consumptive now, about me , and where back then it was more collective about what we can do for the Earth. And I would love to see, and I love to support any organization that would bring us back more to that 1960, '70s, , model where it's about the Earth, it's about these, these places. If they don't exist, the heck with our recreation, you know? Yeah. So glad to hear your, your, that's y- a main focus. That, yeah, no, pinpoint. We are totally soul brothers and sisters on that one. It's, you know, when I think about outdoor recreation, ever since I was a kid, I think about the environment. I mean, I could exchange those words. When I'm out water-skiing, I'm in the water and I'm like, "I can't be here if this water isn't healthy, if it's not clean, um, if it's not free of debris." When I'm camping, I don't wanna be camping around, like, a lot of shit, um, or in a barren desert. I mean, I wanna be camping where the soil's thriving and the ecosystem is, you know, working and doing its thing and it's, it's beautiful. I wanna, you know, I wanna be snowboarding where there's snow on the mountain. Uh, you know, I want the climate to be right. I want all of these things. And so, you know, when I'm out riding my bike and, and I'm like, "Ooh, look at that little bunny," and I stop to take a picture or something, I mean, that's... Outdoor recreation is all that to me, and I do think the term is really overused. I probably overuse it too much. I think that the meaning is, gets lost. And , I'd be curious to learn about h- you know, learn if other people, most people or most people didn't have a connection, like, related outdoor recreation with the environment, or if people actually think of them as two different things That, that is a really interesting question. I think I see it the same way that you do, Denice, , but I'm curious that I w- I don't necessarily wanna assume that everyone does, you know? Yeah, I mean, everyone has, has their own relationship out there. And I can't make broad generalizations, uh, about what people are feeling. But I'm willing to bet, though, that there, there are definitely, like, two camps. Like you're saying, there's people that are d- definitely all about, you know, connecting to nature, it's about nature, and then there's people, it's just, again, I've got a list. These are places I've gotta see. I'm gonna take pictures, I'm gonna move on. I don't know what I'm looking at. I don't really care about that. It's just something to do. It's consumptive. Part of our whole culture has, has shifted that way. , I think it's great, , that your or- organization is trying to realign again because, it's so important. I can't even imagine how can you separate the two, but, but I, it's, it's easy to do when, , it's just all about recreation , and not about the environment. So Denice, something that I'm thinking about,... It's really interesting to me that, that you were saying you felt like you had this huge advantage because you were raised with this being normal in a multiracial family. And that's making me think about something that I've heard people say a lot , I worked in schools for many years, and my job was helping,, first generation college students apply to college basically. And I'm a white person. Nearly all my students, were people of color. And people would often say to me, and I've heard this about the outdoors too, "Well, why do you need this program that's, that's only for..." This is h- this is how people would say it. "Why do you need this program that's only for people of color, only for Black students, only for, ..." You know, any, insert any other label and so I'm curious from your perspective, from your work and your experience when people say, "Well, why does there need to be something that's particularly for people of color?" What would you say? Oh, wow. As soon as you started down that road, I knew where it was gonna go. Yeah. And I just, my body's heating up. I'm feeling agitated on the inside. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, yeah. How I respond to that depends on l- where I'm at and the mood I'm in and how much- Yeah ... time I have. Yes. My response usually is a combination of educate yourself, what don't you know about history, how much do you know about history? Yeah. What kind of background do you have? Do you have any Black and brown friends? , Do you know about the civil rights movement? Yeah. Do you know the lingering effects of slavery- Yeah ... and all of this history? I mean, what do you know? To me it's an ignorance based question. Yeah. And I want to suggest people learn something. Yeah. While trying to bring some compassion to the picture that, you know, we know what we know. , We're living in our bubbles, and some of us stay there and some of us don't. And the people that are interested in that conversation are open to resources, you know- Yeah ... and learning, and those that aren't quickly identify themselves, and it makes it very easy for me to move on because I don't have the capacity to deal with that as well as other people do. Well, and it isn't, I can imagine it must be exhausting to go through life having to explain that over and over to nice white people. It, it, it is. They're not, they're not necessarily nice that you're talking to some of these people, so. Of course. But I, I think sometime, I'm a, I'm a recovering nice white person, and I think s- I think part of that is, like, owning... just because you have good intentions doesn't make it any less exhausting- But, but, but the thing is- for someone to answer that for the eight millionth time. It's interesting you brought this up, 'cause Denice and I have talked about this too. What I'm finding now out there, I hear this and I see a lot of organizations that I belong to that have traditionally been, you know, kinda insular and everything, and have really made attempts to be inclusive, in its broadest sense. And then you're seeing the, um, the blowback from, from some of these groups. It's like, well, gay people, Black people, eight- they can go out and hike. They have the same rights as I do. Theoretically, correct, but that's not the way the world works. Even hiking organizations started, you know, the, the Appalachian Mountain Club started, in the late 1800s, mid 1800. It was very much very, very, um, exclusive. It was for, very, very wealthy people in the city and, they weren't interested in anybody, whether you were immigrant, other Europeans, anybody. And just watching how this whole shift so what a lot of people now will sit there, "Well, I, I've always been able to hike. It doesn't stop me even though I grew up poor." But yeah, if you grew up poor, you know, with, with a European face, you still weren't, scrutinized as someone who is Black. And as you said, Denice, going back to history, with slavery, runaway slaves and, and, w- the wood- being hunted down in the woods, and the woods were... Th- that was not an inviting place for people. And, also so many, people, who are, working class, , b- hiking and all that was, was recreation. It was for wealthy people. People, you know, they... It wasn't something that workers did, and so th- they were never invited to do that. And so today, our backgrounds have allowed us more privilege, whether, whatever that means, , than other people. And all we're trying to do, and especially you, d- is level the field, make it more inviting for everybody. But yet people still refuse to, to believe that, just saying, "Well, everyone can do this. The trails don't say, 'Black people stay out.'" No, but the culture may say that, though, yes, and I think that's the piece. And you, I think, get it. Craig's a... You have a his- historian historian, history background. So you, you know, you dig researching this stuff. You're thoughtful about the past and how the past affects the present and could potentially affect the future. Um, you know, there might be people listening to this who th- are thinking the same thing, "Well, outdoors is for everybody. Outdoors has no racist feelings, feel- no feeling. You know, outdoor's neutral. Outdoor's for everybody all the time," blah, blah, blah. But the, the piece that I think is- missing and worth consideration is literal history, and it's not very long ago. So for instance, I, I try to relate it, if I have time again and I'm in the mood to talk about this stuff with people, that, that my dad, my dad, I'm living, my dad was one before me. He couldn't go to parks, to national parks,, until the mid-'60s. That's when I was born. Yeah. And so, you know- Especially in the, South. So like, this was a segregated beach. This is where you were allowed to go. Y- you weren't allowed to go to other parts of this park, yeah. You weren't allowed to go there. If you were allowed to go there, it was often the shittiest place. Right. Um- And you weren't gonna be... And even if you were allowed, just the col- I mean, people were gonna be hostile towards you, so you knew better. Then why, why, why risk that? Um. Yes. So yeah, and so that's another piece, the allowance and the reality. And that's the whole thing about, you know, Black people and swimming. If you don't have access to natural water spaces and pools, how are you gonna learn to swim? In the air? So, so- Right Just because something's allowed, you know, as, as Craig mentioned very wisely, doesn't mean that, you know, all of a sudden that page changes and everybody's gonna jump in the river. Well, no. The climate hasn't changed. You know, that's gonna take a while. And so hence, a lot of people of color, Black people, don't know how to swim. Hmm. I didn't grow up going to sleepover summer camps. That's one reason why the Bronze chapter provides such a thing. Right. My dad never grew up, didn't have access to this stuff. This is literally one generation away. Yeah. You know, my mom, when I was born, she wasn't even allowed to get her own checking account. I mean, this, this stuff is not happening that long ago, and I think that people don't realize that it takes time to integrate change. And how people are feeling when they're, entering those spaces of change is- You know, is, is up to them. My dad was very adventurous. He was very brave and very courageous in these spaces, and that was very unusual. Yeah. I just happened to benefit from that, thinking it was normal. I didn't know that wasn't normal until I got much older. Yeah. You know, i- I'm thinking too while you're talking, Denice, that part of what you're doing with the Bronze Chapter is accelerating some of that cultural knowledge. 'Cause you're talking about how it takes time for things to change even if a law has changed, but you're also talking about how it takes time to build up and pass along that knowledge. For someone who doesn't have that, how could they pass it to their child? So that's cool that you're teaching adults who may... Not necessarily only adults, but adults who didn't have that opportunity, giving them a chance to get it. Yeah. There's a lot of fear, I've learned surrounding outdoor recreation- Mm-hmm Being outside, , doing things that are a little unusual for people of color, and that's really what the Bronze Chapter tries to center on. Yeah. Um, a- which is why, you know, you don't see our calendar filled with city walks and very, things that, things that are very accessible. There is a huge need for things that are very, very, very accessible. Mm-hmm. There's also a need for creating opportunity s- um, for people to safely, and skillfully, and confidently, and comfortably move beyond those things. Because the, from my perspective is, . I started teaching people to camp because in my world, camping opens the doors to the outdoors. Camping opened the doors to my outdoors, and everybody I've introduced to has... Their, their doors to the outdoors have been opened because they learned to camp, because they learned to sustain themselves outdoors overnight comfortably. And you can take that skill and bring it anywhere in the world. Yeah. Apply it to the environment, you know, move around. And we've become so disconnected from the outdoors that just literally the activity of sleeping outside connects us to just, darkness, and animals, and dew, and just- All of the things about nature that we don't see that we- Yeah, yeah ... miss now that we live inside of walls and insulation and, all those, all the trappings of, modern life. And things are happening with the environment that are not good. Craig will remember, I remember, it, you know, back in the '60s, '70s, it was kind of a shit show back then. You know, unregulated pollution, blah, blah, blah. I'm not gonna get into that, but other than, you know- But we, but we made some incredible, incredible improvements and strides, yet we've fallen back again. And that's what hurts me the most. Mm-hmm. Watching what we did in the '60s and '70s, through our legi- through our, , through our president, imagine that, things that, that were, that got done, and I thought, "We're on a, we're on the right..." And this is the same thing with civil rights. "We're on the, the right projectile." And then all of a sudden the last 10 years, it's like we're in retreat now. And that's why organizations like yours are, needed more than ever, I'll tell you on the positive side, I am seeing more diversity in the national parks, in the trails, and it depends on where you are too, I know in Southern California, I've been hiking in spots where I'm like, "Wow, there's nobody that looks like me." It's like everyone is speaking Spanish and all this. And , this is great. Um- Yeah ... but I think a lot of it, and we've talked about this too, having a access has a lot to do with your socioeconomic background. What about the underserved communities? Like I live in Skagit County so do you, Denice. With a very, very large Latino population many have never even been to the North Cascades, which is just, you know, an hour away. So, it's providing those resources that, , it, which is overwhelmingly people of color, but there's still plenty, plenty of poor white people out there too. How do we get them connected? Because we've had this privilege, uh, and we acknowledge it. And I know so many people are afraid to even acknowledge it. It's not, necessarily a bad thing. Uh, it's great that we've, we were raised with this access. It's wonderful. But now let's pay it forward, right? Yeah. That- And, you know, what you were s- mentioning there, Craig, seeing different demographics where you go. You get around just the na- because the nature of your work, writing all these guidebooks, you get around way more than I do. , And so you are around. You're in the mountains, you know, you're in the valleys, you're on the trails,, in different states all over the place. The data points that you're able to collect are much broader than the data points that I have, and the Bronze chapter is almost entirely active in the state of Washington. Um- So do you think that there's more, more room, for this inclusiti- this inclusiveness here in Washington than, say, suppose Southern California or, or Atlanta? It's very a community relational situation. But as a model,, m- you know, this is not rocket science. I have no degree in creating models. I'm just following my heart trying to create something that didn't exist for me, , for other people that I think, could benefit from it, could enjoy it, um, would like to share it, engage in it, and share it. And, , I also have been outdoors a little bit in California, and yeah, I see a lot more color on the trails there than I do here. I don't know why, but, data shows that, less than 1% of Black and brown people enter wilderness spaces. Almost nobody, almo- almost no Black or brown person, I mean, the percentages are so low, they're like low single digit that goes to a national park, actually explores the park. Most people that go to national parks apparently don't even leave the parking lot- Hmm ... area, the lodge area. That's true. That's true for all people, you know. Yeah, in across the board. Yeah. Even in state parks, what is it? 5 or 8% of Black and brown people, spend the night in Washington state parks. Most Washington state park, use for Black and brown people is apparently day use. So, there's a lot of room for growth there. Um, I don't know how to make that happen. I know how the Bronze Chapter is trying to make that happen. I have my own thoughts about various government programs that are youth-centered, and bring youth into these, you know, backcountry and wilderness spaces, usually for the purpose of engaging in trail work or some kind of campground work or something. And but it's kind of one and done, so you know, yeah, we've got this youth experience at this beautiful place, but if there's no infrastructure, if there's no familial infrastructure to keep that going, that kid will... How's that kid ever gonna get back there? Yeah. Um, you know, that's, that's not gonna happen. And why is work being introduced for a kid's first, or among their first natural world experiences? Like, I'm always asking people engaging, doing this stuff, engaging outdoors, saying, "Well, when did you start doing trail work? When did you start laboring in the forest and on the trails?" And most people say, "Oh, I was in my 20s," or something like that, you know? And I'm like Yeah ... "Okay, let's get these kids into these spaces to simply be there." Mm-hmm. To just enjoy it, to fall in love with it, and then let them come to the idea of laboring there later- Yeah, yeah ... on their own. And let's get the families involved so we can create sustainable programs where people are invested, know how to get there, everybody's feeling comfortable, we're doing it together. There's a lot of money spent in youth-only one-off programs. Mm-hmm. And the same focus doesn't seem to be on more sustainable family-centered programs in the BIPOC community. Now, some people might not like me saying this or agree with it, but you know, those youth-only programs have worked really well for white kids for a really long time. It's a different familial structure. It's a different framework. It's a different outdoors str- it's a different structure- Doesn't translate 100% to BIPOC community. Mm-hmm. There, I said it. I love that you said that. Yeah. One of the most compelling articles I've ever read about the topic maybe in the early '90s. It was an interview. I wish I knew his name. Uh, it was an interview with the very first Black person who was a thru-hiker on the Appalachian Trail. So in the national parks, I'm definitely seeing more diversity, but yeah, in that thru-hiking community, hmm, I think, I think there's a pretty, you know, there's a demographic that's, that's pretty set there. Um, so what was interesting listening about his experiences, uh, doing this, and, you know, he talked, you know, a lot of people were, were good to him, but I mean, he, he was met with outward hostility to the point, like, "What are you even doing here?" Being the only Black person on the trail at that time, he has this huge burden. It's like you have to be the perfect, the perfect backpacker now, right? Anybody else can be a slob and nobody would ever would think, and they s- "Oh, see him? He's typical of that." And, and I think a lot of people are still dealing with that from these cultural backgrounds, where a white person doing something kind of questionable gets a pass, and someone else is like, "I'm not so sure about this person. Look what he's..." You know. It's just in our innate biases that we're seeing. How do you welcome some- But in the same token, you can't be patronizing. And I know, Denice, we talked about one of my favorite skits, you know, is Blair Underwood, the black hiker skit, which is absolute riot. If you've never seen it, check it out on YouTube. It is a riot. Should I put it in the show notes? Absolutely. Okay. It is one of the fu- And I tell you, when I've shared it- Yeah ... with my listeners, I had so many people that, that were offended by it because it's basically making fun of white liberals because they're patronizing. Here's just this guy. I'm just trying to go for a hike, and like, why is everybody giving me all this attention? Like, where I wouldn't get that attention. You know, Jennie, you wouldn't get that attention, so w- why is Blair getting this attention? Right? So, so- That, yeah, I will, I will dig that up and put it in the show notes. So that, that kind of leads, I think, well into something I wanted to ask you, Denice, if you are, if you are willing to offer this, which you don't have to, and you shouldn't need to. But, um- When, so if, if I am listening to this episode, and this is... And listeners, understand I'm not making fun of you when I say this, because I have been you. I have been fortunate to have people of color in my life as a white person who were willing to educate me, and that isn't fair that they had to do that. So I'm not saying this to you, to, about you with any kind of judgment, right? But if I am for the first time hearing that people of color, and maybe specifically Black people, don't feel comfortable on the trail, in this spirit of not wanting to be patronizing, but also not wanting to, like, somehow hold this person to another weird standard- Mm-hmm whatever that is, how should I interact with them? Or maybe another way to ask, what should I not do or say, or what should I do or say? And Denice, I will tell you, Craig and I have talked about this before in other contexts about other topics, what is and isn't okay to say to other hikers on the trail. So with that in mind, what, if anything, would you say to that? Wow. You know, that's, that's a really kind of loaded, big question. It is. Because usually, you know, when we're on the trail, we're passing people. Yeah. We're, we're not sitting down for a cup of coffee or at a party or, you know, at a convention or in a group where we actually have time to have a conversation. One thing, Denice, that Craig and I have talked about is, like, it's always okay to say something to someone else on the trail like, "Hello." Yes. Yeah. Beautiful, isn't it? It can be a beautiful day. Beautiful. It doesn't, uh, is that something we can all agree on? Um- The lake is gorgeous. And don't be afraid- You know, there were a lot of bugs yeah ... the power of the proactive hello I think is really important. Can't be stated enough. Just say hi, and mean it. Um- Yeah ... and if you're gonna say, "Hey, how's it going?" You know, maybe pause a minute for someone to actually answer you and say, "Not very well. I'm having a problem," or something. Like- Mm-hmm ... you know, be authentic in saying hi. That can help people who feel, you know, marginalized on a trail or anywhere to feel seen- Yeah ... and not watched. Mm. So, you know, white gaze is something that it's just everywhere, and nobody wants to experience that. And just hi, yeah, hi. Hi is great. And don't have to mix that hi with some kind of trail-splaining. Ooh. Like we don't know what we're doing. Um- Ooh, can you give an example of trail-splaining? I like that term a lot. I'm gonna start using it. Oh. Um, "Hey, you know, it's, it's a little bit dangerous around that curve. Watch your step." Um, "Hey, you might be more comfortable if you walk this way or use your, adjust your poles this way." Um... Those are, those are really good ones. "Hey, that flower is eh." Was like- Kind of like that- That's kinda, that's kinda stuff that, that Blair Underwood touches upon with- I was like- Mm ... yeah ... I know exactly- Yeah, when they just come up and explain- They're just assuming I don't know anything. Exactly. Yeah. It, yeah. Watch the YouTube video- Yeah ... that is in the show notes. , It hits on that perfectly on, people trail-splaining to this guy who perfectly knows what he's doing and, and things around him,, and is being scrutinized by, by all these, you know, these white gazes, as you put it. Uh, you know, they're like, "What, what's this guy doing here?" It's a fish out of water, you know? Doesn't he know what he's doing? So- Yeah. Yeah. I, it's interesting, Craig and I have also talked about this before, , so I'm a plus-size, frequently solo, middle-aged female hiker. And when I was younger, I'm gonna peg it to before I had any gray hair, I would often get... And maybe times have changed. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's not that I'm older. Maybe it's that times have changed, I hope. I hope. I hope we're getting better. , But peop- I have had people comment on what I was wearing and if it was adequate, or the fact that I was listening to, like, headphones or something like that. So yeah, I, I... Yes. Okay. So Denice, before we let you go, for folks who are listening or maybe not listening, but somehow stumble across us somewhere on the internet and they're like, "You know, I, I would really love to get outside. This really speaks to me, but it's freaking me out. I don't know what to do. I don't know if I belong," how does the Bronze Chapter help with that? I know you've been talking about that, but, like, specifically, how can people follow you? How can people learn from you? What are, the things that you provide, and how do people find those? And do you have to be BIPOC to, um, to be a part of your organization? Great question. Most excellent questions. So because we want people to engage, with themselves, each other, nature and the natural world in land and marine spaces, , safely, comfortably, confidently, we try to provide, programs. I'm gonna say activities, camp outs, classes, events, workshops, retreats that revolve around that. So we provide ways to learn to be safe outside. Wilderness first aid certification training. Personal safety and outdoor self-defense for girls, women, and non-binary people. , Environmental responsibility. Opportunities to learn about Leave No Trace, and even become a Leave No Trace instructor. We connect people to water, because so many people of color can't swim and are not comfortable with water. So we partner with Community Boating Center Bellingham and offer, opportunities for people to experience sailing and learning to sea kayak, and also learning, about, science and nature, to go out and see bioluminescence at night. Um- That's one of the coolest things ever. That is- So cool ... one of the coolest things ever. And I will say- Yeah ... I think that's one of the- Most brave spaces because we're getting people out into tandem kayaks at night in the dark with a headlamp in a boat very close to the water who don't know how to swim- Yeah who maybe never have been in a kayak before. That's trust. It is. And it just kind of gives me tingles every time I think about, you know, people trust us enough to put themselves in that position, in that space to let us take them somewhere to see the magic of nature. It's beautiful. Um- Okay ... we,, offer camp outs, just community camp outs. Come hang, come learn to camp, come try your camping equipment., We offer a hub, an once a year hub. It's actually coming up in May. It's called Camping Equipment Demystified, and we do it at REI. And people can come. It's like a petting zoo hub for backpacking and camping equipment for beginners to intermediate is usually the, the space. And we show people how to use equipment, and we provide other, um, BIPOC outdoor experts there to help people with, you know, engaging youth and learning about land and water accesses, things like that. We have... We want to get people engaged with l- the landscape, just having more information about what they see and learning to love the land and the earth that way. So we partner with, Nick Zentner, and now Dr. Hannah Shamloo's with us, and we, offer, BIPOC-centered geology retreats. And- Really cool. Yeah ... oh my God, it's kind of a, it's a really a dream come true. Um- Yeah ... we haven't found anything else like that in the nation. We offer a, an annual, , sleepover summer camp for BIPOC and mixed race families that I mentioned earlier, five days, four nights here on Samish Island. It's an excellent opportunity for families who maybe have never camped together before to come and learn to camp together in cabins, which most, most people choose, tents or RVs. It's really an onboarding experience and an experience for community to have something that didn't exist for them for a really long time, the opportunity to enjoy a sleepover summer camp. And the history of segregation in sleepover summer camps is absolutely out there and available. It's actually, linked to the Samish Island Nature and Adventure Camp Retreat webpage. Awesome. So that's really awesome. We get people out backpacking, teaching people to backpack in ways that they can, like, literally turn around without us and recreate that experience. So we don't want to be really focusing on one-off events. We want progression. We wanna help people, learn this thing and apply it here and, and use it this way. So when people- Yeah ... learn to camp and they learn to kayak, well now all of a sudden you know how to camp and you know how to sea kayak, and now what opens up to you? Access to all Washington's beautiful marine trails that you can- Yes ... only get to by watercraft. Yeah. And when you get there, you think, "Oh, this is so beautiful. Oh, how can I help this space remain beautiful?" And there kind of blossoms environmental stewardship and care. And so that's really what we're working for. And- Amazing ... bronzechapter.org is our website, and all of our upcoming events are there. And whatever people wanna learn about the Bronze Chapter is there, and if people want to contact me, that's them. That's how they do it. Love that. I love that. And you have a great email list too. We do. We have an email list. People can subscribe to our, , newsletter and then be informed about everything we're doing, and then some. M- more, some writing about, like, these conversations that we're having. This is the year of the fire horse. Ooh. Um, boldness., This is also a year where we're, specifically, intentionally, working on capacity, growing capacity. We have a lot of internal infrastructure, changes and new stuff happening with the Bronze Chapter that's,, really exciting. So this is a, really great year, and I am exposing myself to talk about things that I haven't exposed myself to talking about before for a lot of reasons. So I'm thrilled that you guys gave me the platform to come here and talk to you about, some things that are sometimes, you know, hard or controversial to- Yeah talk about, I think a lot of us are being forced to have conversations that we probably should have had but haven't, and you have to really look deep in yourself what are your va- what's your value system? It's good. It- we need to have these conversations, yeah, great having you- There's so many more to have. There's so, so more- Oh, God, yeah. So many So mu- Yeah So- So many more to have. It's so hard to frame my talking points with you guys, 'cause there's so much I wanna say and so little time to say it. Well, we'll do it again, Denice, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for sharing with us about your journey and your work, and, , I am just really grateful. I imagine that it must be very exhausting to have these conversations over and over. So we are really grateful for you being here and sharing this with us. Thank you. But also inspiring for people who are interested, so thank you Craig and Jennie for being interested. No, absolutely. You're welcome. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Denice.