Why Women’s Philanthropy Is Bigger Than Money: A Conversation with Meenal Sachdev

In this episode, we explore the inspiring journey of Meenal Sachdev, a social impact leader working at the crossroads of business, government, and civil society. Meenal shares her grassroots work addressing modern slavery, her unique perspective on philanthropy, and her vision to empower women as changemakers in their communities and beyond.

** This episode contains discussions of sex work, sexual exploitation, and human trafficking. Some listeners may find these topics distressing. 

Key Topics Covered:

• How Meenal transitioned from traditional philanthropy to systemic, systemic change-driven initiatives
• The importance of lived experience and survivor voices in shaping effective social impact work
• Building collaborative, cross-sectoral strategies to combat modern slavery and exploitation
• Women's roles in philanthropy: breaking stereotypes, increasing visibility, and expanding influence
• The long-term, systems-level approach needed for meaningful social change
• The challenges of measuring impact 
• Meenal's upcoming role as High Sheriff of Hertfordshire and her future plans
• Practical advice for philanthropists and change-makers committed to responsible, inclusive giving

Resources & Links:

• Modern Slavery Act 2015
• Stepwell Alliance
• High Sheriff of Hertfordshire

Connect with Meenal Sachdev:

• LinkedIn
• X

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to Meenal Sachdev and her impactful work

02:12 - Redefining philanthropy: moving beyond charity to systemic change

03:45 - The importance of survivor voices and lived experience in philanthropy

05:38 - Meenal’s journey into tackling modern slavery through cross-sector collaboration

09:12 - Building policy frameworks and practical tools for lasting impact

11:31 - The perception of women as philanthropists and breaking stereotypes

12:52 - Women’s holistic approach to giving: time, talent, treasure, and trust

14:18 - Harsh realities faced in India: supporting women and girls in brothel settings

19:53 - The limitations of rescue efforts and the importance of systemic change

21:19 - Long-term solutions: prevention, economic alternatives, and systemic reform

25:17 - Barriers women face in leadership and decision-making in philanthropy

26:41 - Strategies for increasing women’s visibility and influence in giving

33:03 - Practical guidance for responsible, impactful philanthropy

36:07 - The importance of sustained investment and long-term commitment

37:36 - Women’s deeper engagement in philanthropy and systemic impact

42:16 - Meenal’s upcoming role as High Sheriff and her vision for Hertfordshire

44:00 - The future of women's empowerment and collaborative community action

46:33 - Closing remarks and appreciation for Meenal’s inspiring work

This episode offers actionable insights into responsible philanthropy, the importance of long-term systemic change, and empowering women as catalysts for social progress. Whether you're a seasoned donor or new to social impact, Meenal's experiences and advice will inspire you to think differently about your role in creating a better world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome to the Women Who Give podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled to be relaunching this podcast and to be joined by our incredible guest today, who is so inspiring. So today we have the amazing Mina Sotchev, who is a social impact leader working in the intersections of business, government, and civil society to address complex societal challenges. Mina is the CEO of Stefwell Alliance, where she partners with organizations to tackle modern slavery and strengthen ethical supply chains, as well as advance human rights and practice. And as if that wasn't enough, she also works in the private and nonprofit sectors. She has extensive experience in public service, having served for over a decade as a counselor at Hertzmere Borough Council. Her work has focused primarily on issues such as violence against women and girls, safeguarding, and community well-being, which is such a topic close to my own heart. Nino has also been nominated to serve as High Sheriff of Hertfordshire in 2027, which is a role she'll be stepping into soon. And she's going to be continuing her long-standing commitment to public service in this role. And I know we're going to see some fantastic things in the coming time with that. So, Nino, thank you so much for joining us today. Can I start with one question? So, when you think about philanthropy today, what does it mean to you? And how do you think the definition needs to evolve?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Well, firstly, let me just say uh thank you for that very kind uh introduction. Um, and thank you for having me on your podcast, Alex, today. I think it's great that you've started this platform. I think it's amazing to be shining a light on um women who give in different ways, um, be that philanthropy or in any way, because the women are always giving, and I just think that someone needs to be talking about it a bit more. So thank you for having me today. Um to your question, um, so what does it mean to me and how that needs to sort of definition needs to change? Um, I think traditionally, and I think to a lot of people, it's philanthropy is um large or family or small organizations giving, it's about charity, it's about generosity, um, all things uh kind and wonderful. Um it's often quite reactive as well to situations. And I think that for me, uh philanthropy, well, for me, and also I think this is evolving as well. So it's not just for me, but for me, it's not just about giving money, it's about moving away from that transactional um piece and going really thinking hard and putting some and leaning into how we can take responsibility for change. Um, it's well beyond giving money. It's about giving your time, um, your skills, using all forms of capital, be that your networks, be that your voice. So it's it's really, you know, I want it to be, and I think it should be, and I think it's moving in that direction that it's not just about, it's about all your resources, it's not just about money. I think today's challenges, especially in the world that we're living in, need a really sort of proactive um systems-level response. Um, we need to be long-term, we need to be preventative. Uh, this is really important because even though the results are slower and we don't necessarily tick as many boxes as quickly as we'd like to in sort of the way it would be in grant-making organizations, private organizations, I think that's the response and the approach that's required for the sort of problems that we're facing. So I think philanthropy needs to be strategic, um, not just emotional. I think it needs to be evidence-based. I think this is really important. And I think it needs to be accountable for outcomes and the sort of shift that we want to be seeing and we might already be seeing, is it goes from doing good to actually systemic and systems change. Um, and really importantly, and this is something that uh is super important to me, I think the centerpiece of all philanthropy or giving or social impact or social entrepreneurship, whatever you want to call it, I think the centerpiece has to be about um lived experience or survivor voices or and not just about donor priorities.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Interesting. Well, I'm kind of interested to hear a little bit more about what got you into philanthropy in particular and your journey. So you haven't necessarily followed a traditional path. You've used your own personal initiative to tackle real world issues, you've been instrumental in shaping policy around human trafficking and how organizations can um combat combat trafficking. And um, this has led to you building really an advisory platform. So can you talk us through that journey and um, you know, how did you uh what I guess where where have you kind of come from and and how has that shaped where you're thinking now around philanthropy?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Um it's funny because when we met, I was wondering why you wanted to speak to me because I I wasn't the traditional philanthropist at all. Um so I I remember saying to you, well, I'm not sure if I'm the person you really want to be meeting. Um, because I've never really seen myself as a philanthropist. Um my starting point um wasn't philanthropy in the traditional way. Um I did a bit of that for sure with various organizations as well as a family um uh charitable family organization. Um my starting point was engaging with NGOs both in India and in the UK. Um and eventually the it was the exposure to sort of real problems that affected me and that I couldn't ignore that got me into certain directions, which I'll obviously tell you about. Um the early experience, there was sort of early, I would say going back 15 odd years, 15, 16 years. Um, once I'd been exposed to education projects and HIV projects in Africa and food um food projects in the UK, various projects around the world I was in involved with. Then about 15, 16 years ago, I came across what we now know, which we didn't have words for then necessarily to coin these terms, what we now know as modern slavery, labour exploitation, sexual exploitation. I mean, there was no modern slavery at the time until 2015 anyway. Um, and I was really shocked as I sort of went on this journey to understand more about the gap between what's happening on the ground, the awareness, and then the policy side of things. So I I learned about the sex trafficking that was happening over in India, and I was really surprised that I had been traveling to and from India for a really long time and I had never ever come across this. I was staggered by like the sheer numbers that were involved in this, and the stories behind it were just heinous, they were just harrowing. Um, then realizing this is not just a problem in India, it's not just a problem, it's a problem in the Far East, it's a problem on our doorstep, it's a it it sh manifests in different ways, but it is a problem. And then obviously in 2015, the Modern Slavery Act passed, and actually there was much more awareness about this. Um, what I did is in 2015 I became a local counsellor, and also there was a family-owned hospitality business as well. I looked at my own personal networks and I looked at how we could approach these issues of specifically modern slavery, sexual exploitation, labour exploitation through both the local council with my counsellor hat on and through hospitality. So I basically used my personal resources networks to pilot solutions in both these areas of both business as well as local government. I brought stakeholders together. This was through Shiva Foundation at the time, so we had a team of five or six of us doing this. Um we brought stakeholders together, so business, government NGOs to share, to learn, to hold round tables, to create strategies, to just figure out what the gaps were. I'm sort of reducing this because this took years to do. And then that worked eventually it evolved into two main pieces. Um one was the stop slavery blueprint uh for the for the hotel sector, um, which was launched at the UN headquarters and now it's been rolled across many hotels around the world and hotel groups.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

On the local government side, there was the Hearts and Monoslavery Partnership, which was a hundred statutory and non-statutory agencies coming together to formulate how we can embed a response to monoslavery at the sort of core ethos of every council in this area. And then based off the success of those two, and especially the local government one, we then went and trained other councils. We consulted with the local government organizations so we could amplify this at a much more national level. Then we moved with those sort of two core pieces of work, we moved on to, it evolved into other sort of policy work and advocacy work and influencing policy at various levels. So some of the outcomes of that were just to highlight, we embedded modern slavery into licensing policy at a national level several years ago. And we advised on government frameworks. We also did a lot of stuff on the hotel side. We worked with the Home Office to create supply chain scorecard for government bodies and organizations. And then from all this, after like a 12-year journey, came Stepwall Alliance, um, where it was not theory, it wasn't, um, but it was sort of tested practical tools that can be embedded within governments, local governments, NGOs, and business to tackle things together. So very much like collaborative, cross-sectoral, how you can respond with better workplace practices and all those things to tackle these issues and the issues broadened, not just of not just modern slavery, not just labor exploitation, but also domestic abuse and other forms of exploitation. So coming back to um the question you've asked, it wasn't that I want to be a philanthropist. It was more like this problem exists, I care about this problem, and I or we have a responsibility to act.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Fantastic. I mean, it's interesting that you don't see yourself as philanthropists. And I think this is part of also that kind of the reason why I feel passionate about this work is because I think sometimes women, we don't own that term. And there's also just a lot of stigma around the term philanthropist. There is this kind of perception of it's like, it's only the people who are giving a hundred million pounds away and have their name on a building. And actually, I think that women in particular, as part of our kind of economic and emancipation and ownership, is really if you give 10 pounds away, go ahead and call yourself a philanthropist because I also think women are transformational in how they and holistic. So what's coming up for me when you're talking about this is you're really holistic in your approach. It's not just a I'm gonna give X to Y and well, hopefully it'll go well, and I'll, you know, I'll come to your thank you event later in the year and I'm done and dusted. You're really trying to tackle it across so many different areas in which there's an issue. And there's also kind of this uh term within philanthropy that says women like to give their time, talent, treasure, ties, testimony, trust, and truth. And I feel like you've kind of spoken a little bit to all of that, and truth in particular is is important. You keep saying that kind of being motivated by something and wanting to to make an impact on it. And I think your example of what you've done really speaks to that. It's not just one element, it's really you brought your networks together. You, you know, you approached it from such a systems level, which I I find really um impactful. You've had exposure to some of the harshest realities that women are facing and girls are facing, as you mentioned, you know, you've done work with it in India and you know what kind of triggered a lot of this, um, and you've supported women in brothel settings. Can you share a little bit about that experience and how it shapes your understanding of where funding and action is most urgently needed? And I guess I should say at this point, and maybe I'll need to add a like kind of warning at the beginning, you know, maybe some of the things we're talking about in this can can be a little bit um uh upsetting or they're quite, you know, harsh reality. So um I'll just give a bit of a I guess trigger warning for lack of better words to what we're gonna be talking about in this section, if you don't mind sharing. Sure. Yeah, I think that warning was necessary.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Um So I, yeah, harsh realities. I have for the last few years working, been sort of outside of my stepball role, just more on a personal level, um, been spending a bit of time with these two NGO leaders in India, um, Gitanjali, based in Delhi, and Robin, who is now was in Mumbai and is now based in Taramshala, who I visited last year. Um both these women are I mean, there's no word to describe these sort of people who have given up their lives, um, the entirety of their lives and dedicated it to such causes and causes that are really, really difficult to be dealing with, like they're life-threatening, they could be killed for this. You know, this is this is serious. And they're both young women who have for various reasons in their lives that they've they've done this, and they run um organizations and they both have very different approaches. So essentially they are working to I wouldn't say rescue in the traditional way, but rehabilitate um sex workers and their families. And they're both doing it in very different ways. But thanks to them, I have learnt a lot about sex workers, their realities, the forced nature of what they do, but also not so forced. I'll explain that in a minute. I've learned about I've actually visited brothels a couple of times that that I never thought I would, I never thought I would visit, but not only that, I never thought I would see what I saw. Um I saw girls um as old as 65 women as old as 65, right? My mum's age, um, all the way to sort of nine-year-old, beautiful little girls from Nepal. I saw men coming in and out. Um, I saw how they lived. Um, I saw um how hard it is to escape these lives and how hard it is for children of sex workers um to escape the stigma and to actually be accepted into mainstream anything, schools or whatever. I saw girl I saw little kids um being shuff shuffled under beds um while their mum would have a client in and having sex. So what these kids saw and watched and were exposed to all day, every day, or quite literally all day, every day. But then um so I saw all forms of abuse, right? So if you look at the menus in these uh brothels, you know, you pay X amount for something quite normal, and then you pay X plus plus if you wanted to add on various different things that I'd never even heard of before. Um so I won't go into those details, but it's it was really, really shocking. Um But what I also saw on a very different note is I saw community, I saw a lot of joy and a lot of laughter and a lot of and these women feeling like this is where they belong, and they're very happy where they belong because they've got their network and their support, and this is all they've ever known. So actually they were not sitting there in a corner wanting to be rescued or wanting to escape or necessarily wanting their kids to even escape. They they didn't know that there was a choice. And as a result, and even if they had the choice, I think that they they didn't have necessarily know what to do with that choice. Um so at average on average, it could take a six months or up to three years or never to be able to convince a sex worker to leave that environment. Um sometimes it's easier because they want the child to then have a different life to them, but without children, they're like very happy they've got their friends there. This is all they know. Um so I saw that side too. I walked in, I spoke to them, I spent time with them. Um, it was actually fun to spend time with them. There were lots of sad stories, but there were also really funny stories. Um so that was sort of my experience in a snapshot. Um in terms of how it shaped my understanding and where the funding and the action go. So that's all very theoretical compared to um it it was it's really hard to make give a tangible answer to these things because I'm not the one articul I'm working with these um NGOs to see if I can help with funding and help with support in different ways. Um, but I'm not actually facing this reality on the ground or understanding how the policy works or how the legal structures work or what the corruption is like. I know it's so that's not my area of expertise, but if I was to say it off the very limited experience I do have, um I would say that the biggest learning was that rescue alone is not enough. It's not it's just too simplistic in the way that uh we want to rescue X many girls. Like, you know, if you're in an organization and you're like, okay, we'll give you £100,000, but how many girls are you going to rescue? Well, it's not that simple. It might be that I rescue £100 with your £100,000, but it might be that I rescue one and that should be okay. So rescue alone isn't enough. Um I think the other thing that I have learnt, and I'm still learning, is that people aren't aware of they are aware that sex workers exist in different parts of the world, but I don't think they're aware of the complexities and what actually happens and what goes on. So I think people need to be more aware of what problems exist. And I think that before people start donating or raising funds for these areas, they need to make sure that they have a really, really they have actually have this complex understanding of what this is and what what layers of society are enabling this to happen. Um what's required, I think, is long-term support. What's required, I think, is uh economic alternatives, um, definitely systemic change and definitely prevention, which could, you know, which could as long as there's a demand for this sort of work, there will always be a supply. And therefore, prevention uh needs to tackle both the demand as well as the supply, and that can take decades. So, you know, which organizations are willing to put decades of funding and thought and strategy behind making sure that this is something that we can reduce over time, not accelerate, and not, you know. Um I think that in terms of actual funding, it's just reinforced that it needs to be targeted, it needs to be sustained, and it needs to be designed with the women themselves. It's really important to have the women in those conversations. Like if I were sitting in my office in London thinking about what these women want, it would be very different to what these women actually want. I might think, oh, if I give them an alternative such as they can go and make pickles so they've got some income, oh, they might escape from these places and they'll have day they'll have enough money to feed their families. They don't want to make pickles. They want their children to go and study at University of London. They want their kids to go and study in Delhi. Like they want they have normal dreams. So what I think they want and what they want, those conversations need to happen.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

I love that. So it's it's interesting because the reason I kind of even have gotten into all of this is that I grew up in very kind of um rural Ohio. I went to Methodist church, and Methodists are all about kind of getting out and doing community service. So I was doing kind of um charitable work from a very young age, from suit kitchens to rebuilding homes as habitat for humanity and all these different causes. And I actually ended up in uh Africa in Uganda on a medical missions trip at the age of 17 with very little life experience and skills. And I was kind of participating in this, and we now kind of have terminology for this, which is the kind of white savior philosophy. But I was kind of sitting there going, uh, why what am I doing here? And why have I kind of been giving given this um this kind of freedom to do this? And are the services that we're providing designed by the people in this community who are accessing it? And it really inspired my kind of future. Your studies, and it's really interesting kind of having this conversation now, nearly well, over 15 years later, where I've been working in the kind of fundraising charity sector, and always on the kind of fundraising side of it, but actually hearing you know funders consider these things, and and this is why I like this area of work because you actually you you have an opportunity to really make an impact and shape the way aid and development and charity is provided to communities.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, it's gonna be much more of an enabling process, right? And much more collaborative. And I think that but I do generally feel that um this is a direction of travel. Everyone is having these conversations and rightly so, and they are setting they are correcting the old traditional forms of we know best, living in this echo chamber of like the Western models are the better models, and we know, you know, we'll we'll bring everyone along our way. And you know, I think I think that most people are moving away from that thought. But yeah, you're right. Like I think that the disjointedness can still be there, and it's really important. And also sometimes like people um want to engage in this way and they want to be bringing in actual voices and lived experience, but it's not always easy to either.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

What kind of barriers do you think are preventing women from stepping into philanthropy and into, I guess, decision-making roles more broadly? In I would say let's confine it to the charity sector, because if we're looking it w wider, that's a bigger conversation. But I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

You touched upon some of this earlier. So I think that um the first barrier would be this sort of perception of philanthropy, um, of being about large wealth, um, big foundations, big money, um, which automatically excludes um women who are already contributing or want to contribute in different ways. So it's the perception, it's that perceived definition of what philanthropy is that needs to be revisited. Um, how do you go about that? Um second would be I think the sort of confidence and the visibility gap. So women often not just charity often underestimate the value of their influence and of their own networks. Um I think that there's generally women need to we have to make sure that women can see that the sort of natural does them living in their normal daily lives actually can influence uh various things that they could be passionate about. As you said earlier, you know, you could be a philanthropist if you just gave ten pounds to somebody uh and it made a difference to somebody's day. So it's a definition, it's the confidence level. It's um control of capital. I think um sort of decision making, uh be it philanthropy or not, we'll obviously just stick to philanthropy, but decision making still largely sits with uh male-dominated structures. Um so even if you're as a person working in philanthropy trying to collaborate with other sectors, like it's it's fairly male dominated in these sort of areas. And so there's that level of control, even within family structures, right? Like if you look at not all families for sure, and it's definitely changing for the better, but where where does the power sit sometimes within these family foundations? Um I think on a very base level, women are a bit more time poor. They're balancing multiple roles, they're working, they've got kids, um, and there's sort of less access to philanthropic spaces, maybe less co access to those conversations that are happening. Um and I also think that and I found this back in the day when I actually entered certain philanthropic sort of spaces and conversations. I feel like these spaces feel quite exclusive and quite okay. And it feels quite like hard to break down those initial barriers and those in these networks. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but I I remember I found that quite a lot at the beginning. But I think, look, I think all in all, um of course there are these sort of structural, these cultural barriers. Um they exist in every sector. Um, but I think making people aware, especially through the work that you're doing and the platform that you're building, I think maybe making people aware that they are already deeply philanthropic. Just by their, you know, being women, being caring, being mothers, being aunts, being, you know, they they do care in a different way. Their brain operates differently to men. Um, I have met incredible women in this journey who would never call themselves philanthropists, who are doing who are shaping the world in different ways, just through their passion and their networks and the stuff they do every day. And this isn't always recognized. It it really isn't. Um so I think there needs to be sort of more inclusive entry points. There needs to be a revisiting of definitions and influence and where that sits. And I think overall, I'm sure everyone would agree we need more women in decision-making roles.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Yay, I love that. And you're so right. I mean, this is what I'm always saying around kind of women's visibility within philanthropy is that 76% of household uh purchasing decisions are made by women in the UK, or maybe 78%, something roundabout there. And even there, you have an option. You know, you can't make every choice uh kind of for the good of humanity, but there's a lot of power in that economic participation, whether you are, you know, a lower income earning family or high income family. And then we know that also women are making decisions around philanthropy with partners as well, even if it might be kind of male as the lead person within the kind of family structure, as you say. Women are behind them some oftentimes, and organizations haven't always engaged with the whole community who is, you know, influencing those decisions. So I loved how you also said the the kind of um decision-making structures or something like that around wealth, because that that is interesting of thinking about, you know, how do banks and uh wealth management offices and and all of the services around wealth generally, um, and how those actually discriminate against women just by the way that they are created. So it's it's very interesting. So for anyone who's looking to kind of make an impact, what would your advice be and how they can kind of get involved? And what does um effective and responsible philanthropy really look like to you?

SPEAKER_02 29:12

So incorporating some of the things that we've said already about listening lived experience, I would say that start with the problem, not the solution. Um, and start with giving time to the problem. You know, like it took me, I don't know, about two, three years of a lot of talking and a lot of knocking on doors and a lot of roundtables to actually arrive at what it is that I wanted to do and where the gaps were. You know, I mean, if I was working for a much larger organization with a restricted amount of funding, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Um so I think that that really helped create some of the longevity sort of the amount of work I was able to do and amplify over time. Um so yeah, listen first, um, especially to the ones who are closest to the issue. So if it's not survivors, then it's uh organizations who are working directly with survivors. So just listening carefully and giving that time and don't not putting time limits on that ideally. I know that's practically a bit hard, but still like that's what the aspiration should be. Um I think focusing on impact and not optics is really important. Um I think asking constantly asking, again, we were this is one of the things we were really good at. We constantly, whether there was a few of us in the office or two of us in the office, we would constantly be asking ourselves what changes as a result of our work. Or what changes as a result of this funding. And if at some point the answer stopped making sense, we would stop the work around it. Because at some point you know, well if if you you're gonna get information along the way, you're gonna build knowledge along the way. And at some point, you know, you've got to keep revisiting the purpose of what you're doing and not keep going for the sake of it. So if someone else completely comes and publishes something else or a law or there's some sort of legal strategy that comes out and it makes your work useless at that point, well then not don't carry on with it because you said you because there's but I know again, sometimes the structures don't allow you to do that, but I think that that that would be ideally great if people did that. And then thinking beyond money. So skills, partnerships, networks, influence, voices, how can you really bring in different people from different backgrounds and societies and rally them around these causes to make a difference? It just can't cannot sit with one sector or one individual or one body. It has to be something that comes, you come in at different angles to actually make a difference. Um it has to be three-dimensional. Um and being willing to sort of uh fund the unsexy things, uh essential things such as the infrastructure, marketing, training systems, I think that's really important for long-term change. Like we spent, we invested a lot, and not time not money, but just time, and we managed to find pots of funding from places for just training, just making sure that if this current iteration of the council and departments understand this through training, well actually let's embed it let's embed it into the longer-term system so that everybody who onboards is part of their training. You know, that's not that that's not something that donors might think is a great thing to do, but actually that's really important for work to survive and not to have it repeated every time people collaborate. I think again not working in silos, which I just mentioned. Um I think measuring outcomes is really important. So even if it's very simple tracking, I think it's really important to measure outcomes in the best way possible. That's not to say that you've got to stick to those, but again, find ways of measuring impact. Um and then finally, I think that to create lasting change, um you've got to be in it for the long term. No lasting change is gonna be created in one cycle of don like funding, like you know, three to five years, two to three years. These are all very, very short periods of time unless you're doing something quite simplistic. Um if you're looking at much bigger problems, then be a bit long-term about it.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

So many interesting pieces there. And I feel like we might need to get you in for a second session around, I think, outcomes in particular, you know, from the the funding side of it, when we're trying to connect individuals with with causes, I remember that kind of process of having to what well, how do you identify or how do you create outcome metrics and what does that look like? And what is um what's actually relevant? And kind of it would be really interesting to hear your experience of kind of going in depth with that, and also I guess how you just I think what you said time and time again is really about I think the pace of it. And again, I think this is why women, from my perspective, are sometimes left out of the kind of conversation around philanthropy. Is that um from the kind of you know, relationships I've had with other women philanthropists and from colleagues who work in this space and work with women philanthropists and research that's come out of the US really who kind of have looked at how women give. Women like to go in depth, they like to understand the topic, and you like to have impact, deep systemic impact, not a short-term, you know, even three years in in our kind of sector is standard practice, and that's like deemed like good. That's like the best, you know. If you get three year funding, you're like over the moon, you know. And as you say, what uh that's not gonna change like these deeply rooted systems that require years and years. I mean, Michelle Obama recently said that, I think about kind of change of like if you're not in it, you gotta you gotta realize that you probably won't see the solution to some of these problems in your lifetime because these problems take so long to actually fundamentally fix. But we still operate in a very from a from the charity speaking, from the charity perspective or the higher education or wherever, on these very short timelines of needing to see results immediately. And it, you know, if you really do want to see that impact and you're interested in kind of developing those relationships and taking things slow, you know, are you gonna be having conversations like this or are you gonna try to get a gift that's quick and over the line and allows you to reach your budget for the year?

SPEAKER_02 35:36

And don't you think that this is all reinforced by the sort of power dynamic at play? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also the the fear, Alexa, I I I'm a trustee at this charitable foundation right now, and my biggest battle there is we are, you know, you as this charity have been doing this work for decades now. You know the work for decades now. You know best. As in take it from me, you know best about the organizations, the area, all the problems. But yet you are afraid of having conversations with your donors about being long term or measuring impact like this because you don't want to shake you just don't want to like you know, lose them. But actually, why is there why are you going to lose them? They should believe that you know best and you should be able to take them on a journey with you. Um all idealistic, I know, but we've done it. Like we I remember with the some of the blueprint work that we did um in the hotel sector with monoslavery, our team was a bit afraid, like really afraid of talking to the suppliers about monoslavery within their supply chains. And so they kept saying, look, we'll look at our supply chains, but we don't need to talk to our suppliers about their supply chains. Like they'll think we're criticizing them and they'll think this. And and I was like, okay, but it's down to how you communicate that, right? We can't do our work unless that work is being done by them. And if they can see that we are on a journey, they might want to mimic that journey. So this conversation just within our internal team took about six months. Six months of like this email just sitting there and not going. Uh in the end, we did it. And in the end, we had the most amazing response, and everybody came on board. Um, so it's also that fear of like, okay, we can we can't do this, but you can do these things, at least try and do them, because ultimately you're not doing it for yourself, you're doing it to serve the cause in a most effective effective way possible. And if you really care about that cause, you've got to have the tough conversations.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I I definitely say this to you know colleagues in the sector of I think in fundraising, we have to you there's no point sugarcoating things, it's absolutely not going to like go anywhere. There's I don't know there there is a fear of having these kind of difficult conversations around the challenges that are going on in an organization where I kind of view that as an opportunity to really deepen relationships with our closest partners to maybe unlock even more transformational support ultimately if you can say, you know, our program or our problem is not something super splashy and amazing. It's about like the fact that we don't have consistent infrastructure to allow us to deliver it and we have high turnover, and that's because of X, you know? And I think we have to we have to confront those, those um, we have to go into those conversations in a brave way, as you say, in order to really see some change. So I hope that and I know there's a lot of philanthropists in the UK who are advocating for, you know, I think better practice within philanthropy and more ambitious philanthropy. So I hope that they set the the tone for it moving forward. So our last question is what's next for you?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

What's next? So yeah, I've left politics after 11 years, um, because I am assuming, as you said, I'm I'm the nominated uh high sheriff for Hertfordshire next year, and you've got to give up your political role once of that. So I had to leave. Um, not a time to leave, but anyway, I'm quite excited about this role, uh albeit it's a ceremonial role. Um, but every high sheriff, um, most high sheriffs, um, apart from uh wearing their hats with their feathers and their boots and carrying a sword, um, they have a theme for the year. So they create a platform, they have a theme for the year, um, and they raise funds throughout the year during various events that they have to host uh for selected charities across their themes. Um so it's a real honour to be doing this, and I am um already preparing so that I can hit the ground running next March, April, whenever I assume the role. Um and I won't give you too many details, but I know that I am going to be setting up a women and girls fund uh for Hertfordshire. And I know that um I want to be really working, again, in a collaborative way, which I've always, I think, been quite good at, in a collaborative way with the main stakeholders in in the whole county, um, on opportunities that I well, first to just understand the good work that's happening because a lot of good work is happening, and then understanding what um people feel is the way forward, or where the gaps are, or where there's issues with funding and challenges, and figuring out like two or three outcomes that we can actually achieve together in that one year. Um, it could be sort of the intersection of technology and AI and digital things, women, and women enabling women to shape these outcomes themselves. I'm not quite sure in terms of what these outcomes will be because it depends on everyone coming together and having these conversations, which will happen later on this year. Um, but I do know that I want it to be something that is that everybody's very proud of achieving. I want it to be something that can then be amplified across other counties, across the country, potentially across the world. Um I really believe in not just doing things that cannot then be replicated in the most sustainable way possible if you're going to be putting that sort of work into things. Um and I want to keep looking at um various issues from exploitation, sexual exploitation, uh, the impact of digital uh things on young women, girls, the manosphere, all these things that we're talking about. But you know, domestic abuse is a big one. Like the that's the highest form of crime in most counties right now. That's where the a lot of money is going in, but actually it's increasing. Why is that increasing? There's a lot of questions to be asked. So I'm going to hopefully have these roundtables and replicate some of what I did going back 15 years with modern slavery, um, with various stakeholders, um, with ambassadors and with people who can actually influence. Um, and I'm really excited about what lies ahead. And hopefully this well hopefully if it's if it's successful, um we will make sure that the fund continues well beyond my high sheriff year.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Amazing. I feel just so pleased that there are people like you working on these issues and really helping to use your expertise that you've you know acquired through that initial process and now applying it to another kind of arena. So um good luck in this next journey that you're on, and thank you for all the amazing work that you're doing to support um women's empowerment here in the UK and really across the globe. So thank you so much for your time today as well. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I could talk to you for hours. Um, and yeah, we'll have to maybe have a catch up at some point. But thank you. Thank you again. And um, yeah, we look forward to to following your amazing work to come.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Thanks, Alex, and thanks for um yeah, letting me share uh my story today. Thanks.