We Bet Ya

03: Three Certainties in Gambling: Winners, Losers & Taxes

• Allan Hillzinger • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Prepare to navigate the twists and turns of the sports betting landscape with ChaseBet's own Ryan 'the Pilot' Freedman riding shotgun.  Host Allan and Ryan bounce back and forth about:

  • the week that was and the upcoming week direct from the Chasebet trading desk
  • dissecting the market changes in the NRL & AFL premiership   
  • the West Tigers' unforeseen victory 
  • gig bets taken on New Zealand Warriors and Essendon to win the premierships 
  • rehashing the Golden Slipper race where Storm Boy's loss was not so unexpected 

Eyes on the prize, or should we say, on the odds, as we gear up for an action-packed weekend of boxing, NRL & AFL clashes along with a great Easter weekend of racing. Why are the Panthers pegged as underdogs this week despite their stalwart performances? Allan analyses the enigma and assess the early bets moves for the Titans & North QLD as well as for Richmond & North Melbourne. The ring is calling with the anticipated Tim Tszyu vs. Sebastian Fundoora showdown, but don't miss Zerafa's battle with Lara or the undercard tussle between Romero and Cruz. They're your cornermen, providing you with the stats, stakes, and strategies to bet smart before the bell rings.

The final round of our podcast bout packs a knockout punch with insider tips and betting strategies:

  • They spotlight the greyhound runners to watch
  • Share their top picks for the Queen Elizabeth and Tankard Stakes
  • Break down the Golden Easter Egg market. 
  • Discuss the underdogs that could upset the odds & throw a wildcard into the mix with Swindled's intriguing odds. 

The episode closes with another hot topic! ChaseBet founder Damian's critical look at TAXES and how they are reshaping the betting game for everyone, from bookmakers to punters. It may just surprise you!

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to we Betcha, a betting podcast dedicated to providing comprehensive information, tips and education that will take your punting entertainment to another level. I'm your host, Alan Hilsinger from Chasebet sporting CEO, professional gambler, now bookmaker. Tune in as I unleash my sometimes unconventional approach and views on all the current sports and races. Chasebet encourages responsible gambling. Imagine what you could be buying instead For free and confidential support. Call 1-800-858-858 or visit gamblinghelponlineorgau. Or visit gamblinghelponlineorgau. Excited to bring episode number three of the we Bet you podcast to you guys, and even more excited that, moving forward in our week in review and our looking ahead at the next week sections, we have the head of trade for ChaseBet, Mr Ryan, the pilot Friedman. Awesome to have you on board, brother.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Pleasure to be with you, Al, and yeah, excited for the week ahead and the week just gone. It was a very interesting week wagering here with us at Chasebet. So, yeah, looks to be a great week of racing and sporting action.

Speaker 1:

Mate, let's start with the week in review. I know a lot of the listeners out there love hearing what's going on behind the scenes the footy I know there was a bit of action last week in the football. Mate, talk us through that Rugby league. Let's start with the rugby league first. Any movers as well, on the back of results or bets or anything like that in the rugby league.

Speaker 2:

Well, we did actually take a wager of $2,000 on the Warriors after their win last week at $17 to win the flag. They actually have drifted, however, as we have seen money for the Panthers after their sensational win against the Broncos last week. So Panthers clear favourite $3.50. But yeah, just keep that in the back of the mind. We did have a couple of good bets on the Warriors, one bet in particular of $2,718.

Speaker 1:

And did we, the Tigers, the West Tigers? Did we see that result land in some people's favour, or was that an absolute punter? What's the word punter? Killer, Multi-killer?

Speaker 2:

It absolutely was a multi-killer. The Tigers certainly clawed the face of most punters out there last week and saved our bacon because we actually got done on Cronulla and the Warriors. So yeah, no, the Tigers definitely knocked out everyone's multis. And I also heard a few on the footy tipping comp including myself as well so I wasn't too happy about that.

Speaker 1:

That's not hard, mate. You're always getting knocked out somewhere in the footy comp. For those that don't know, ryan could take a seven-leg multi, he'll get six. He could take a three-leg multi, he'll get two. You'll start learning that with the pilot, as we refer to him.

Speaker 2:

Mate, as the ladies say, always come up short.

Speaker 1:

Mate. So AFL, AFL-wise, there were some interesting results in the AFL. I know a lot of the favourites did get up. What did that look like from a punter point of view last week?

Speaker 2:

Well, sydney are up to defeating Collingwood. Sydney are now into $5.50 for the flag, just to let you know, and the Magpies have actually dropped a lot of their supporters' teeth and have drifted out to $12.

Speaker 1:

I won't mute that out, mate. I didn't say that you did, so we'll leave that in there.

Speaker 2:

No, that's alright, I've got to have a dig at the Collingwood fans. They're all good people. I've got a lot of Collingwood mates, so I have to say that. So yeah, but the Magpies have actually drifted there, actually up to $12. The Crows are also easy in the market as well, obviously after being defeated at home.

Speaker 1:

to the Craving Cats and mate any big bets on the market. So you just mentioned that Sydney, sorry, are into $5.50. Greater West Sydney still slightly holding favouritism. Any other bets that we've taken on the AFL.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we actually have taken an interesting bet of $1,000 on Essendon at $51. They're still currently $51. Geelong, that has been moved $17 into $15. We have taken a couple of four-figure bets on Geelong has been moved $17 into $15. We have taken a couple of four-figure bets on Geelong but ultimately the big firmer is actually Carlton. So $11 into $8 with Chasebet now. And yeah, on the third line of betting behind GWS and Sydney.

Speaker 1:

And what about the racing mate, the Golden Slipper last week? It was an interesting race. Stormboy was just on the drift and I know at Chase Chase Bet you and the team were definitely laying and taking on Storm Boy. Knowing that the Golden Slipper is traditionally a very, very tough race for favourites to win Was unlucky, obviously missed the kick Overall result as far as the slipper went, as far as the punting on that went. What was the general feel there, mate?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, it's an interesting one because ultimately, I think us as traders, we actually all sort of believed Storm Boy would win the race and arguably did have excuses, you know missing the start by a couple of lengths, then going to the worst part of the track. It actually was a good result for us, but I don't think Storm Boy lost any admirers. But yeah, as you just touched on, it is one of those races where we are forced as bookmakers to try to offer the best price on the favourite. Chasebet certainly was right up there with the best prices available and, yeah, we certainly pushed the market out to reflect that. So, yeah, it was a good result for us and Storm Boy running third. But yeah, lady of Camelot was excellent, but yeah, we actually did get hurt on a big roughy in the next race.

Speaker 1:

Zapateo actually did cost us money, so that was interesting. Yeah, there was one punter that had a nice little bet on Zapateo and I do know that that was a losing result for Chasebet and possibly a losing result for a lot of punters out there as well. That came for a variety of runners right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely yeah, it was a mixed bag in Sydney. I think the track certainly made things interesting and, yeah, a very, very disappointing track for, you know, one of Sydney's premier race meetings.

Speaker 1:

Yeah must agree, mate. I think that's a conversation in itself, isn't it? Always interesting when it comes to those big races? So, looking at the week ahead, mate, there is a lot of sport going on. I know there's been March Madness going on and there's been bets left, right and centre. There's all sorts of sports going down. Let Madness going on and there's been bets left, right and centre. There's all sorts of sports going down. Let's start with the racing, or stay with the racing. While we've been talking about that this week, what have we got to look forward to in the racing, mate?

Speaker 2:

there's the Australian Cup, obviously, but we've also got things like the Tullock Sakes, the Emancipation, the Binary Stud. I mean it's a great program. The Doncaster Prelude it is a fantastic week of racing and obviously, being Easter, you're not out there hunting for your Easter eggs and you're not there trying to make a baby and doing something else with somebody else's eggs. I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself being at home having a fun over the weekend of the racing.

Speaker 1:

It's a really, really crazy weekend. We knew adding you to the we Bet you podcast was going to liven things up, mate. Mr Brightside. What's your expectations with Mr Brightside from a trading point of view? Will it get taken on? Do you think the money will come from it and does it look a good bet?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, very interesting. Well, I've spoken to some really really good form analysts about Mr Brightside, Prada, Jenny kind of thing. A lot of them just genuinely think that Pride of Jenny is a better horse than Mr Brightside and it kind of did sort of work out that way at Caulfield. I am not quite there yet. I still think there isn't much between the two, to be perfectly honest with you.

Speaker 1:

So you reckon the market? Will the market be pretty close to jump or is it just the following and the I suppose it's a bit of a cult following for Mr Brightside? Is that weight of money going to keep Mr Brightside as a clear favourite or do you think by jump time we get pretty close?

Speaker 2:

I think there still will be a slight margin of favouritism for Mr Brightside. The interesting part about it is obviously the track. What's the track going to be doing? You know, ultimately, being at Flemington, I do think that sort of Pride of Jenny was absolutely amazing last year at Flemington when it was successful there and it actually defeated Mr Brightside same weight conditions, you know, obviously over a mile, I think at 2000,. You know there has been questions about Mr Brightside at 2000 previously, but it did then obviously you know, bypass that question and run second behind Romantic Warrior.

Speaker 2:

Very, very tricky. I questioned Prada Jenny doing those bold tactics, front-running tactics over 2,000. I just don't think it'll be able to do it. So therefore I wouldn't stick with Mr Brightside from a personal perspective. However, from a trading perspective, I think we'd have no option but to take it Is an upset on the cards.

Speaker 1:

Do you think there's an upset, or is it a two-horse race? Are the punters just looking at those two if they're doing their quaddies, if they're doing the other exotics, are they just standing the two out? Or is there a potential for an upset? Do you think if the race gets run a little bit differently to what most are expecting, or maps differently, do you think there's an upset, or are we kind of just sticking with those two? Yeah, well, look. Personally.

Speaker 2:

I'm actually a tissue fan so I personally would be leaning towards a tissue to you know, tissue fantasy behind quite a genie and it was a terrific run last year. And yeah, blake Shins, arguably the best drop in the country at the moment. He's riding unbelievable. So I will stick with Waller Shins, but I do think those two will certainly be where the money is at quite a bit. But you can't leave out a tissue. Dom Tichoux with three wide and still ran really, really well. I think $51 is absolutely crazy odds and Legato is obviously very consistent as well at the bottom of the New.

Speaker 2:

Zealand horse and there's been big wraps on here. It has been a little bit disappointing at its last start. Now, obviously, when beaten at a very short price favourite, but there's been huge wraps on here and it obviously takes on our local calipers. So a very, very exciting race. Mr Bryce, I will start, I would say, marginal favourite over Peter Jenny, but there is certainly other chances. What I would say is probably a slightly disappointing Australian car, probably a slightly disappointing.

Speaker 1:

Australian Cup, yeah, in the scheme of it, yeah, but still it's intriguing. It's still intriguing, isn't it? And outside of the Australian racing, the international racing also takes a little bit of a stage, mate, it does.

Speaker 2:

It does the Dubai World Cup, and actually one thing I didn't actually look at was to see if there was actually some Australian horses over there. I know that there was going to be a couple. I think Star Patrol and the astrologist were supposed to be going over there. Obviously, the astrologist has been racing here so it hasn't gone, but maybe Star Patrol did go. I'll have to double-check on that. In the actual Dubai World Cup, which is on Saturday a real interesting story for those that don't know about it, but it's a bit of a cult following online there's a horse called Kabakan or Kabikan, and it actually had its maiden win in Kazakhstan before racing in Russia, and there it is now in a Dubai World Cup as the second favourite in the race of $5. Unbelievable story. There'll be a movie about this at some stage.

Speaker 1:

And it was bought for how much? How much was it purchased for?

Speaker 2:

$12,000 US from Keeneland in Kentucky, I believe it was, and bought by European owners. Taken over there to Europe wasn't showing much. Ended up having its first couple of months in Kazakhstan. There's actually a video of it in a three horse race in Kazakhstan and it looks like a beautiful field, farmer's field, pretty much this race track. We'll have to try and get that up on the socials as well.

Speaker 1:

Ryan, I think this might be a little bit of a story next week. As you said, a win here and a fairy tale could be a movie in the making mate. So outside of that sports-wise, what are we looking at? Sports-wise, I know there's been a few early bets and a few market movers already in the AFL. What have we got that the punters can follow the money in with?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, so with the AFL and this week's sport, so we've actually taken some early money on Richmond at the line at plus 23.5. Now that line is now back to 21.5 as it stands now, but we have actually taken some good bets on that event. We've also had a very interesting larger bet on North Melbourne at the line at 36.5, at plus 36.5 over Carlton. They had the half shortened to 34.5 that line, but it was a pretty interesting wage of that. So keep a little eye out on North Melbourne at plus 34.5.

Speaker 1:

And it'll be interesting as we track along with the episodes just to rewind, and next week we'll actually have a look at how that early money versus the late money has actually gone on. Outside of that, mate, what else have we got on in the rugby league? Has there been much movement there?

Speaker 2:

In the rugby league this week it has been a little bit quiet. I think that's due to weather conditions across the country as well as injury cloud. I'm just going to have a quick look here. It looks like the main game is obviously going to be the derby between the Broncos and the Cowboys, and we actually have seen some money on the Cowboys in early betting. There's been some bets at the line at minus 1.5 or 1.95, which still remains currently.

Speaker 1:

What else have we seen? Panthers Roosters what are we looking at? Panthers Roosters Any money there? Obviously, the Panthers are very, very rarely the underdogs, this week as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and they are, which really surprises me. But the Roosters are in good form too. Yeah, and they are, which really surprises me. But the Roosters are in good form too and obviously weren't fancied last year before disappointing. But yeah, the Roosters are the favourites. A 155, penrith 245. The line is currently at 4.5. We haven't seen much action in that game.

Speaker 1:

I think injury, clouds, who's going to play, as you said, weather conditions there's a lot of factors there and no one's really wanting to put their money too quickly forward, are they?

Speaker 2:

No, they're not. They're not, but there is a real interesting one here. We actually have seen some bets on the Titans this week to beat the Dolphins, so I'm just looking here. We often see a range of bets you know a reasonable amount on the Titans to beat the.

Speaker 1:

Dolphins, so that's where some early money is actually heading, which is interesting no-transcript and North Melbourne at the line in the AFL mate and the boxing. To round us out for this week ahead, the boxing mate Chase Baird is offering markets on the boxing. What are the feature fights we're looking at this weekend and what's the prices?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so ultimately, tim Zhu is racing and we might do a little bit special. Obviously, tim Zhu is racing in the Easter Egg as well, so we wanted to do something about that, yeah great idea, great idea. For everyone this week. So, but yeah, tim Zhu fights on Sunday. What's supposed to be against Keith Thurman. Keith Thurman pulled out with a bicep injury and replacing him is Sebastian Fundora. Now this guy is 6'6" the middleweight division, just to give you an idea. So Zhu's 5'9". He was fighting Keith Thurman 5'8". On 12 days' notice.

Speaker 1:

He's taking on this firefighting a 6'6 guy and this is going to be very, very intriguing for all the Tim Zhu fans. What price can they take Tim Zhu to win the fight?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so Tim Zhu, currently with Chase Baird, was about $1.20, I believe let's just bring that back up. Yeah, so Tim Zhu is currently now we've actually had some support so $1.19, sebastian Bandura at $4.75. So you're looking at, yeah, obviously.

Speaker 3:

Tim.

Speaker 2:

Zoo is a short price favourite and as an Australian, we're going to cheer him on. We expect him to win and hopefully he gets that big payday with a fight against Terence Crawford. But on the undercard there's also Michael Zarafa fighting Erislandy Lara and I'm going to tell everyone I think Zaraffa's a little smoky there.

Speaker 1:

What price.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, so Michael Zaraffa in the boxing for Sunday. My computer is just playing up, as it always happens when we do this. Alan, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely mate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So here we go. So we've got Michael. Zaraffa is currently at $3.50. Now he's taking on Ericsson Landilara. Now People that know their boxing, ericsson Landilara is absolute people. We want the floor with Zarafa. But Ericsson Landilara is now 40 years of age and his last couple of fights has looked pretty slow in his legs and he is a Cuban fighter, so very, very nimble on his feet, likes to duck in and out. He has been very stationary Nationally. That's going to play right into the hands of the Australian Zarafa, and a $3.50 is certainly a smokey in one of the undercard fights.

Speaker 1:

Do you think do we see Zarafa versus Zhu if they both win?

Speaker 2:

No, I think Tim Zhu will probably go on and fight like an Errol Spence or a Terence Crawford, to be perfectly honest, and then if he loses, then he's got a fullback option of falling into a fight like that.

Speaker 3:

And I do apologise about the beating.

Speaker 2:

I'm still trading at the moment while we're doing this, so I do apologise about that.

Speaker 1:

Love it multitasking, mate. Is there a special in the boxing that you can tip the guys into? I know you are a massive boxing fan and you follow it closely. You follow the markets very, very closely. No-transcript.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's another fight on that undercard. It's actually the co-made event and it's been known as Roley Pitbull the fight. So it's Roley Romero versus Cruz and currently the market there says sees Isaac Cruz at $1.35, rolando Romero at $3.20. Rolando Romero has the size benefit, so Isaac Cruz is a big sort of heavy-handed guy, rolando Romero more of the boxer. So they're going to really clash quite well and this fight's going to be a spectacular fight. That one I actually think Rolando can beat Isaac. So the $3.20 value.

Speaker 1:

You think they'll start closer by the time they touch gloves. I certainly do.

Speaker 2:

I can certainly see Rolando being 250, Isaac Cruz 160, 170, something along those lines. The odds are definitely skewed with at the moment. I think 320, 330 is really good value.

Speaker 1:

Mate, really, really appreciate you jumping on. We look forward to having you on each and every week on the we Bet you podcast. Thanks to the pilot, Mate, we'll see how your tips go. And again, I say we'll see you every week. But if the tips don't come off, mate, the listeners may be demanding either you do come back or don't come back.

Speaker 2:

Mate. Absolute pleasure, and I'll try to be on my best behavior next week and say hello to your mum for me See you champion. See, ya thanks.

Speaker 1:

Alrighty, thanks, alrighty. Guys, one of my favourite sections is the black bookers and as I'm doing the black bookers, I've also realised that we didn't give you a golden easter egg greyhound markets with the all-in. So I'll quickly run through that and I'll also drop a few little sneaky. What I believe is value runners if you're having a bet on the all-in markets. So we'll start on the all-in market. So we'll start with the Victorian Greyhounds. There's three Victorian Greyhounds that you want to black book this week Ben Jarrear, lan Franco and Shiv Roy. So again in the Victorian Greyhounds, you want to black book Ben Jarrear, lan Franco and Shiv Roy All what I believe runners that will win very, very soon, heavily backed, indicating they are ready to win. In Queensland. We have one runner for you, which is Haras Caesar. Definitely, be blackbooking this runner. And if we actually shift the pace a little bit, I'm going to give you guys three future Gallops, heavily backed runners. First one, queen Elizabeth Stakes via Sistina. Give you guys three future gallops heavily backed runners. First one in queen elizabeth stakes via sistina, and then in the tankard stakes, both military mission and more felons, both heavily backed. So again in the future gallops, queen elizabeth, stakes via sistina, tankard stakes military mission and more felons, heavily backed by some very smart judges and would be definitely worth following along there if we actually change the pace and we look at the golden easter egg market, what a ripper. And as ryan touched on tim zoo in the golden easter egg, also fighting over in las vegas, and he's the second favorite at $10 along with Alpha Zulu. Mckenna is our favorite $8.50. And McKenna is a young up and comer who has tremendous ability. It's always interesting the golden Easter egg where you get some of the interstate runners. You've got youngsters who are coming through versus the more seasoned regulars at Wentworth Park. So it's a real interesting market.

Speaker 1:

The one thing I will say and this will kind of blend into what our next segment is, which is talking around the better betting is always be aware of first starters on the track. So I'll talk a little bit more about that later. But just be aware of them in their heats. Yes, they can win the finals. However, just be aware of where they're placed in their heats to make sure they get through. If I scroll through and I just look at a little bit of value. So again, mckenna 850, tim Zhu $10, alphazulu $10, zipping Megatron $11, nengar Jim $12,. History's Coming 15, and Nengar Jim $12. History's Coming $15. And Nengar Larry Scalacci, shanghai Susie, superstar Ethics all $15. All obviously fantastic chances to me. I think McKenna deserves to be favorite. I think he's going to perform extremely well.

Speaker 1:

I want to look for a little bit of value. Where is the value in this? I look down and I see dogs like All Natural $26,. First run Wentworth Park. You need to come in the top four to qualify for next week's semifinals. Bearing that in mind for your all-in bets, this is the all-in to win the final. So you're looking to come top four this week, top two next week and then obviously win the final. I think All Natural $26, looks a little bit of value there. We. I think all natural $26 looks a little bit of value there.

Speaker 1:

We scroll through for a few others. Look, scrolling down, going down, looking Isles Entity $51. If it showed a little bit of pace could certainly be there. Shimmer Current $51 to me looks a little bit of value. Shimmer Current hasn't seen Wentworth Park, which is the only question mark I have. You've got to finish in this top four, but I would anticipate he's going to improve dramatically if he makes through to the semifinals. And look at $51, certainly looks value there.

Speaker 1:

What else have we got here? Swindled? I think Swindled is unbelievable value. I think you're getting triple figures around. Swindled, underestimated yes, another dog having first run at Wentworth Park. If it can get through, I think, some of the times it has run in Melbourne and the ability it has hit and miss at the start, if it gets it right, like right now, it's one of the 10 biggest odds and to me I've got it in my top 20. Think it'll make the semi-finals and I think it's going to be a massive chance to make the final. So, at triple figures, I think that's the one that you want to look at as well.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic fields of course we have all of the heats on chase bet. We've got the all-in market on chase bet. We'll be doing an updated all-in market. So when heat one finishes, there will be a brand new all-in market released and then we'll continue throughout that, throughout the night. So as dogs are either eliminated or they perform better, you'll see the prices continually change. They'll be paused before the heat released a few minutes after the heat is completed, and we'll follow that through next week in the semi-finals as well. So looking forward to the golden easter egg this week and make sure you follow those black bookers as well.

Speaker 1:

The we bet your podcast is proudly brought to you by chase bet. For a comprehensive betting experience, download the chase bet app today. Think, is this a bet you really want to place? For free and confidential support, call 1-800-858-858 or visit gamblinghelponlineorgau In our better betting. I always struggle to spit that out In our better betting section.

Speaker 1:

Tonight I'm just going to talk on first starts at the track Now, understanding that, yes, many dogs may have had one, two or more trials at a track, usually on their own, sometimes post to post, sometimes post to post being they're not out of the boxes, their hand slipped sometimes out of the boxes. To me, this is the one area that, from a betting point of view, I am extremely cautious of as a bookmaker when I put the bookmaker hat on. It's one of the areas we are happy to take dogs on and give you better prices when they're having their first start of the track, particularly when they're drawn in awkward boxes. If they're drawn, boxes five, six, seven, sometimes even box eight is extremely difficult first start of the track. So I just want to touch on that and a great example and we'll review this next week. I'm looking forward to it the Golden Easter Egg Heats Group one Golden Easter Egg Heats on this Saturday night.

Speaker 1:

There's a number of runners that are coming from interstate and they may have had one trial, sometimes none, sometimes they're just looking to get through to the semifinals. Top four go through to the semifinals. So, trainers, they might have been competing in other races. They don't want to take the big trip down to Sydney and then back. They are a little bit more aware. So they're just looking to get through the first week. So the first start on the track. Be cautious.

Speaker 1:

There's runners this Saturday night that are going to, on paper, look like they are specials, they look they are a class above, they are better than the rest, but they're drawn in awkward boxes four, five, six, as I said, maybe even out wide If they hesitate slightly. They're not used to the boxes. The boxes in Melbourne are different to the boxes in New South Wales, as an example. They're not used to the boxers, they're not used to the atmosphere. They've had to travel a long way. First time at Wentworth Park, under race conditions, they can miss the kick and it can be a graveyard. There are certain tracks that are graveyards, certain starts that are graveyards.

Speaker 1:

So today I want to share with you guys. Just be aware of this as a punter. If you see some value in the race against the dog that's having its first start, I love that. If you feel like there's a dog that's drawn in, say, box one, when there's two or three runners that are having their first look, that are drawn out wide, that's a great example of a dog that you might want to have a bet on. Each way you might want to back of the win it's likely to pose a little bit more value. So this saturday night, particularly wentworth park, keep your eye out for that. Beware of taking too short of odds, even though bookmakers love you doing so. Love you backing the favorites that are having first starts attracts. Be aware of it, look at it, take notice, love to get your feedback on it. Feel free to message us on our live chat. Feel free to reach out via email support at chasebetcomau and share your thoughts around this topic as well. First starts that track. Looking forward to bringing another better betting discussion next week Everyone's favorite subject.

Speaker 1:

As we go to the bookie's desk, we bring in our man from Chasebet, damien Harris, our CEO and founder. We have a doozy today. Actually, we have a doozy every week for you, mate. We always put you straight under the pump. Today, we're talking about taxes and a lot of people listening might hear the word taxes and be well. How's that relevant to me? Bookmakers pay them, businesses pay them. We're going to talk into this and Damien is going to answer the questions on why all punters need to be aware of how taxes are going to potentially impact the industry and what is behind it. So I've got a few questions for you, damo, but let's start. Firstly, there's two kinds of taxes that let's call it. A bookmaker will pay. Bookmakers pay it directly, but in effect, it's paid by everybody. What are those two different taxes? Let's start with the race and sports field taxes.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So we've got race fields legislation that we pay directly to each co and we also do the same with sports, and they're set at varying rates sports much cheaper, but on average 1.2 percent. However, racing goes up to highest three, three and a half percent. You know, different racing codes have differing rates and there's multiple jurisdictions and I rattle them all off, but one of one of the clear performers from a bookmaker's point of view is Grahan.

Speaker 1:

Racing New South Wales. And why is that, damo? So let's dig into this. So you just said that you pay that percentage. So for the average person out there, that means that if they bet $100 in total on, say, say, racing and, as you said, the top of the market say about 3.5%, $3.50 would go back to that code in that state. Is that correct? That's correct, yeah. So why is New South Wales Greyhounds one of your favourites?

Speaker 3:

Well, apart from the fact I'm a New South Wales boy, is that they're at 1.6%. But they see that their market is. You know, they want to be cost effective in the marketplace, as opposed to the gallops, especially New South Wales and Victoria, that really are just imposing huge taxes on bookmakers. But in turn, the punter and not just the professional punter, we're talking the recreational punter, those punters that $100 of entertainment value just doesn't go as far.

Speaker 1:

And so $100. In effect, you're turning over $100, $3.50 is going out the door. $1.60 is going out the door. So, as a bookmaker, do you look at that when you're doing your pricing, your promotions, all of those kinds of things? Do you take that into a little bit of account? And I know it doesn't sound like a lot 1.6 to 3.5, but 2% on every dollar that is spent is significant.

Speaker 3:

Well, bookmakers work on low margins so that 2% is significant. So from a promotional point of view I will push New South Wales greyhounds every day of the week. You know Queensland greyhounds are very competitive GRV down in Victoria they're reasonably competitive too. So that's why we like to have a good focus on greyhound racing is because it's cost effective.

Speaker 1:

And sport's the same as well, mate, is that correct? So sport's pretty competitive in the scheme of it, in what they're charging as well.

Speaker 3:

Well, yes, sport is an even lower margin operation, but it is still much better to have runners betting into sport or same game, multives or things like that, than betting at Sydney or Melbourne Racing on a Saturday afternoon.

Speaker 1:

Do you think then here's a question for you do you think that if this continues and each of the racing codes continue to raise their amounts and don't look at this that a lot of bookmakers, chasebet other bookmakers, will start pushing more punters towards sports than racing?

Speaker 3:

I think in the last five years we've seen that push back to sports with same-game Maldives and what have you. But I think they're going to tax themselves to death. The old line of you know they're going to kill the golden goose. You can't keep kicking the punter on this one. I think it's time that you know. A racing authority started to tax the breeder. The breeders are the ones that are winning the millions and millions of dollars. They're selling the yearlings, and why aren't they contributing? It's always the punter. They're selling the yearlings, and why aren't they contributing? It's always the punter. Easy to kick the punter.

Speaker 1:

And they don't know right, just the everyday punter. But then on the other end, the punter doesn't get a fair go. So it's an interesting one that this is the depth of this. Now, that's race, field and sports. What do we call it? Taxes or legislation that you have to pay on the turnover. There's one more tax which is really and I know this is going to get you fired up is called what we refer to as POCT, point of consumption tax. Is there an easy way to explain what point of consumption tax means from a bookmaker and how that is relevant to a punner?

Speaker 3:

So I think you know point of consumption tax was bred out of a lot of bookmakers being, you know, located in the Northern Territory and they're trying to evade tax. So the states have decided well, this is a great way we can raise revenue. And they set a threshold and they vary across the states. But any profit derived from your punter at, say, new South Wales and Victoria, you must pay a percentage of your profit on those punters.

Speaker 1:

So let me get this straight, then, damo. So, of all the punters, let's just use New South Wales as an example. That's where you live. At the end of the month or the quarter or the period of time, they take all of the losses of the punters in New South Wales and a bookmaker must pay tax to New South Wales, determined by the New South Wales State Treasury or whatever state they live in. Is that correct?

Speaker 3:

That's correct. So this covers every state in Australia with varying thresholds. So, for example, in January I paid $50,000 in point of consumption tax. Now, if that was all going back to the racing industry, well, maybe you could say, okay, it's going back to the industry. It doesn't all go back to the industry in New South Wales. What it does do is it goes to consolidated revenue in a South Wales. What it does do is it goes to consolidated revenue in a large part. So they're just taxing. It's just another tax.

Speaker 1:

So the big hot one the big hot one, Damon, sorry to interrupt you there the big hot one, then, is the continual increases. So we've heard this in the past. Oh, it's cannibalising the industry. New South Wales is about to go from 15% point of consumption tax, meaning that everyone that loses in New South Wales or the collective losses in New South Wales that a bookmaker makes in let's call it profit off those bets is about to move from 15% to 20%. So the punters out there are like well, it's a bookmaker, you're making money, et cetera, et cetera. As you said, it's actually much lower margins than what a lot of people understand, especially with the taxes. What is moving from 15% to 20%? It's only 5%, or many have this perception it's only 5%. What does that mean for the punter, the guy or the girl that is listening to this podcast, who loves a bet on a Saturday or loves a bet on a Thursday night? What does this mean for them? And every state's doing it or has done it.

Speaker 3:

So, firstly, it's only an idea or a concept at the moment. They haven't said they're going to do it, but I'm pretty certain that they're thinking about it. Okay, cool, when this occurred in Queensland and they went to 20%, you know it caused havoc, you know, but it's not going up 5%, it's effectively going up 33%.

Speaker 1:

Oh yes, I understand yes from what it currently is. Yes.

Speaker 3:

So it's just a bigger impact on overhead costs. So how do bookmakers make money? They've got to raise their percentages. So instead of betting 118% on a race, we're going to have to go to 122 or 123%, so it's a less competitive market.

Speaker 1:

In terms of a price demo. What would that look like If it was normally $3,? Is that like now? It's $3.20, $3.30? Sorry, the other way isn't it Not $3 to $3.30, it's $3 to $2.80. Sorry, yeah, that's the issue.

Speaker 3:

You know, wow, it's no longer a $3 shot, it's now a $2.70 shot. So you back a winner. You're not getting the same return, so your hundred dollars or your two hundred dollars doesn't last as long, or it doesn't last as long or you don't have the same ability to actually win.

Speaker 1:

It's almost every punter. With that extra five percent variation it's so much harder to win then and bookmakersmakers.

Speaker 3:

We're in the entertainment business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

You know, we're not just competing against other bookmakers, we're competing against all forms of entertainment. Yeah, and I think that's what racing administrators have got to understand, and stop looking for sugar hits.

Speaker 1:

We've got to have correct structural approaches to these things or you won't have a racing industry that's as well funded well, let's hope that the state treasury department consider people like yourself, other bookmakers that have been in this industry, that have seen the impacts up and down from some of these taxes, that they consider engaging before making these decisions and actually look at a sustainable long-term where, yes, the government can tax and utilize those benefits but it doesn't hurt the punter. Anything else there demo that you wanted to touch on I know this is one other thing I'll probably trigger you again is looking at the Totalizator Act versus the online wagering. Is understanding that landscape? Is there an impact? Because how this is currently playing out is not impacting every bookmaker equally right.

Speaker 3:

Well, that's correct. I think we touched on it last week about the massive moves you know that are in the marketplace and online bookmakers, you know big and small have NBL limits.

Speaker 1:

So that's NBLs for anyone out there. Minimum bet limits and as you said we touched on it last week a little bit, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And you know bookmakers must bet to lose something. Mostly there's exemptions and what have you. But under the Totalisator Act, you know, I actually challenge their validity to even bet fixed odds Like they're a totalisator. Why are they being a bookmaker? They don't have a bookmaker's licence. Do they hold a total? They're a total, isaiah. Why are they being a bookmaker? They don't have a bookmaker's license. Do they hold a bookmaker's license? Do they have an electronic betting authority through in New South Wales? You know OLGR? They don't. Has anyone questioned them on this when they started betting fixed odds in the late nineties? I'm not sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that this could be a whole new discussion topic in itself, and I can see you having a little bit of a grin and a smile where you're like I could go down a rabbit hole here and we'll be here for another half an hour. But I think the point that we're really making as well, Damo and you've seen it over many, many years this unfold is that it's really important for governments and racing authorities to really understand the punter, understand how this impacts the punter, and also for the punter to understand how it impacts their entertainment. I think you've given it a great explanation. Hopefully there's more to come out of this. I think there'll be some more topics that we have on our podcast to come out of this. We may even engage some other people that are in your network that have their own thoughts and opinions on this as well to share. It'd be an interesting one to have a few of you guys in the room at the same time discussing this one episode, I reckon.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for sure. I know that some of the big guys have been in the media and they hold very similar opinions to what I do. You know it's common sense to people in the industry, but many people making the rules aren't in the industry. They're in a treasury department or they've got an accounting or economics degree and it's just numbers on a page.

Speaker 1:

It's not an industry that they're not thinking about the people that are involved or the lives they're affecting and I know that's one thing that chase bet through yourself and myself are very passionate about, and we'll keep advocating. As you said, we are really here to provide the most comprehensive entertainment and betting experience possible for our punters, and if that means fighting to ensure that they've got the best pricing and the best opportunities, then we'll continue to do that. So thanks again, damo. Awesome topic to talk about. As we said, we could go on for hours about this and look forward to another interesting topic that we've got planned for next week.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, mate cheers thanks for joining us on the we bet your pod. Please follow the show so you don't miss a thing. If you know a mate that needs to hear this episode, make sure you share this episode with them too. Rating and reviewing the show makes a big difference, and I really respect the time and energy that takes. In return, I can guarantee I'll be showing up every single week with another action-packed episode. Chasebet encourages responsible gambling. Imagine what you could be buying instead For free and confidential support. Call 1-800-858-858.