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Entrepreneurial Minds
Through trying to build my startup, I found myself being a part of a community of incredible human beings and was inspired by their experience in the business world. As a result of that, I started this podcast to share some insight into the entrepreneurial circus and to bring you real, raw and inspirational stories from founders across the globe.
Entrepreneurial Minds
Skizaa: Transforming Customer Engagement for African SMEs via WhatsApp
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Today, more than 95% of internet users in countries such as Kenya, Nigeria, and South Africa are on WhatsApp. 📱 What if you could transform the way African businesses engage with their customers using just WhatsApp?
In this episode of Entrepreneurial Minds, Ali and Ngugi candidly share their journey of building Skizaa, evolving from an initial idea of a facial recognition attendance system for rural schools to a data analytics startup that helps African businesses engage their customers via WhatsApp. 🌍📊 Tune in to hear about their struggles, bootstrapping efforts, and their unique approach to leveraging technology.
Co-Founders of Data Analytics Startup
Speaker 1Hey everyone , welcome back to another episode of the Entrepreneurial Minds podcast . I'm your host , baidehi Tembaker , and today we have two other incredible co-founders with me , ali Buckland and Gugi Karega , the co-founders of Skeza . So they are building a data analytics startup that is helping African businesses engage their customers over WhatsApp startup that is helping African businesses engage their customers over WhatsApp , and what's interesting about their story is not only are they business partners , but they are also married and life partners . Okay , so welcome to the podcast , ali and Gugi .
Speaker 2Ali and .
Speaker 1Gugi , thank you for having us Looking forward to it . Excited to have you ? Let's jump right into it then . So for people who don't know who you Excited to have you , let's jump right into it then . So for people who don't know who you are , why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself , ali ? Maybe we can start with you .
Speaker 3Sure . So I am originally from a place called Guernsey , which is a small island in between England and France . I studied in the Netherlands , found myself in India , which happens to be where we met , and then , about three years ago , we moved to Kenya , to to live and also to to start building this , this business yeah , interesting , well , so , uh .
Speaker 2Well , it's always difficult to go after you . I'm a failed monk . You should know that better . Part of the reason why I'm a failed monk is you . Second one is I spent the past nine years in India , which is obviously very much part of my life . I've juggled between being an engineer doing nothing and now building a startup , which is a lot of things , but , yeah , happy to talk about it throughout today .
Speaker 1Awesome . Thank you for that , Gugi . I want to go back to one of our first interactions where I told you I was from Mumbai and you started speaking to me in Hindi . I was like who is this man speaking better Hindi than I do ? So I was yeah , I was taken aback . So tell us a little bit about what you did in India over nine years .
Speaker 2I think that's a whole new podcast , realistically . I mean nine years condensed in a few minutes . It's crazy . But so I went to india in 2013 , and the goal was to become a revolutionary engineer , which , as you can see , it never happened . But so I studied in Madras , back in South India , where I enrolled for a degree in computer engineering . To my surprise , it wasn't what I was hoping to experience , Sure , so I ended up dropping out in two months . Okay , and then that's where my real Indian journey began . So I ended up in Bangalore , long story short , joined a farm it was a hacker farm called Jagger . Trying to code obviously wasn't the best . Ended up winning a hackathon . Got a job with IBM , worked there , got fired . Ended up trying to become a monk again failed , cycled from north to south India for about two months , ended up in uni , met Ali , got married and I'm here .
Speaker 1Wow yeah .
Speaker 2That was a great summary of the nine years .
Speaker 1Okay , so talk a little bit about your experience at IBM and also being in a really competitive place like India . What was that like for you ?
Speaker 2Dude . I mean , oh my God , I don't even know where to start with that . So there are a few interesting things that happened . Ibm was a big shocker for me . Think of it as a really small town dude who has never been exposed to so much responsibility and all of a sudden . So what happened is , after getting a job in IBM , I started building this startup called Source River , so that was my first startup in 2014 .
Speaker 2And so what I had noticed is , when I won the hackathon , genuinely I was probably the worst engineer . Like there were people who were building really insane stuff , but why did I win and how did I end up ? So I just pitched better . So , realistically , I was a better salesperson than an engineer . And so when I got the job in IBM , I went to one of the guys called Ajit and said hey , I think there is a better way to hire better engineers who are more qualified to be engineers than me , and so let's build a hackathon management ecosystem where we train , you know , kids directly from uni to become engineers and , in this instance , we'll train them on IBM bluemix , which is what we were like , significantly like selling . So blue mix is like the modern what we have now AWS , microsoft Azure , yeah , so it is the IBM version . And so they got on board of this idea straight up again . I sold it better . I got funding .
Speaker 2All of a sudden money came in and I didn't know , oh shit , like a lot of money . Now I got a team of eight and so it's like my whole life turned upside down , right From a real hustler who had no plan with life to a guy now who is living in a big house paid by IBM , getting a BMW to drive him to work every day , getting a lot of money that I never knew even what to do with it . And you know , sometimes the faster climb comes with a very high , quick downfall , and so and so . Anyway , I ended up messing up a lot because generally I had no leadership experience . I had never worked in a corporate space before , I didn't know what I was doing , so I messed up and I got kicked out . So it was very short , but I learned a lot and that experience really has informed who I am today and also informed the success of Skiza right now .
Speaker 1Sure , sure , that's so interesting . I had no idea . So very interesting , okay . And um , I know you said you were better at selling , yeah , than all of the other engineers , and you also had this idea of like , hey , I'm better at selling , but am I the most qualified , yeah , to be in position , and maybe the company needs to do better at hiring better people .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1But so you had the urge to kind of change that and pitch that yeah . Did entrepreneurship run in your family , or what kind of drove ?
Speaker 2that . Yeah , dude . I mean I think there's this joke that is always thrown around that Kikuyu's are good at business , which might partially be true , but I remember the first money I ever made . I was 14 or 15 there in high school , where we used to , I used to buy cell phones I will not tell you where from . I used to buy cell phones from people and sell them in school , but because most of my classmates uh , you know , we didn't have much money .
Speaker 2I went to a school called changamu , like deep in mombasa , right , it's like a proper , you know , hustler nation . So what ? What I realized is they cannot , no one could easily just raise three thousand or four thousand shillings to buy a smartphone , right . So we started a charmer , right ? I don't know whether you know travel , like you know where . Now 10 people will come together , contribute like 30 shillings every day , and then they will buy one phone , and then so it will be like a merry-go-round , and so that was my first instance of making money as Ngugi Karega . It went on all the way to building the first movie shop , you know , back in the days when we used to buy movies . I don't even know whether you've experienced that .
Speaker 1You know that , whether I was born there . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2So we used to . So this was back in 2009 . Okay , so there's this place called Mekindani in Mombasa , where , at this right at the stage like in the you know when you come in like in the , you know when you come in where everybody's dropped I got a shop , like a small one , you know , set up a 32-inch TV I don't know whether they were 32 or what it is A few speakers and a computer , downloaded this software called Nero and I started burning movies , and so what I used to do is I built up a subscription model I used tell you about that where you subscribe for , let's say , 500 bucks and you get like four , five latest movies a week . So the entrepreneurship has been there , but very informal in nature , until it happened in the other space that's awesome that's how it always starts , and it's great that it started at such a young age .
Speaker 1Yeah , but yeah , really really cool , ali , what about you ? How was it different for you ? Yeah , so .
Speaker 3I think our lives and our backgrounds are very different and I think that's obvious as you kind of get to know us and our histories . So for me , my first job was really in finance and then in consulting , working much more maybe on the other side of things with the impact funders , and so I think I knew I didn't want to do that and I knew I wanted to do something a little bit is the word closer to the ground maybe and I think also when we met we knew we wanted to work together . From like that moment we were like and we had like a business at that time we were doing event management in India , running events for the university , um . So we always knew we wanted to work together and I knew I never wanted to take a linear path in life . But I don't think I have the same .
Speaker 1I mean , we have very different stories , yeah sure and like I feel like Boogie is like the operator , the hustler , whereas you are more like the pitcher and like I bring some order .
Speaker 3Yes , you bring some order . You're the planner , you pitch . Really well , bring some order . You're the planner , you pitch really well .
Speaker 1You , you know you put the company out there
Evolution of Skiza Platform
Speaker 1. How did you separate roles when you came up with Skiza ? Was that difficult , or was it quite obvious that you had different strengths ?
Speaker 3so . So when we started Skiza , a lot of it also was stemmed from your story and your journey , so we knew that you would take on the role of CEO . That was always really clear and then but in terms of role definition , that definitely took time .
Speaker 1Yeah , in terms of separation of like who does what ?
Speaker 3Also , because in the early games , the early startup time , everything is all over the place anyway . There's no structure . So everyone is pitching in to do everything . And I would say that you know also the demands of the startup are different now than what they were when they started . So , like now that we have , for example , like a working product , we can build out the sales function and that can be a role in and of itself , whereas , like early on , everyone is sort of doing everything .
Speaker 1Yeah , everyone is wearing multiple hats and we know how the startup hustle is . Let's just backtrack a little and maybe we can tell everyone what Skiza is and what you are currently building today .
Speaker 2SKIZA is . You know what I mean ? It's very interesting to talk about SKIZA because it has gone through the different metamorphosis stages right , like it started something very different , correct and what it is right now . I mean , when we started , skisa was a facial recognition attendance-taking system .
Speaker 1For schools .
Speaker 2For schools . Okay , all right , and so the idea is we'll build it for schools and then it will keep morphing into other segments . I remember one day I was playing a game with one of the manufacturers and he was saying that and he asked me what do you do ? So I was like , ah , we're building this facial recognition system for attendance . He's like I can use that for my faculty . I'm like , yeah , you can , definitely . So we were all over for a while , and when we built it , the idea was I had a lot of attachment towards building a solution that works in rural Africa and not just the urban spaces , because there were a lot of other players doing that in the urban , but when we built and started testing it , it was in Uganda first .
Speaker 2What we realized is that , first of all , the teachers , because it was in education , right , the teachers had very basic smartphones to start with . Two , the classrooms that you want to take the live feed , to consume the data and , you know , generate reports , reports on attendance do not have even proper lighting . Teachers don't have those cameras , teachers don't have those . We realized that we had built something that is almost difficult to use , and so we had to go back into the drawing board and say , okay , we still want to solve this attendance problem . So how do we do it ? And so , again , we went back and removed the facial recognition and just built the basic register that you have and made it digital format . But the core function was how can we make everything run offline ? Because internet connectivity is a big issue , and so we started seeing some success from that . We had like 193 schools using that in Uganda actually funny enough but there was no way of making money . How do we make money ? Because teachers , we cannot charge the teacher .
Speaker 1So you had 193 schools , but you weren't monetizing .
Speaker 3No , so a lot of that was a journey for us in terms of figuring out who can buy that solution , and so our early clients were NGOs . So NGOs that are , and they're still our clients today , but in a different way , I would say yeah , yeah .
Speaker 3But yeah . So we realized that if we wanted to serve the rural market , and at this time the rural schools , we needed to kind of understand the economics of how things work and who has money in that space . And so we built a solution that adds value for NGOs . We spent a while building a solution that was really around . How can organizations who are running programs in different schools or in communities , how can they start collecting data , analyzing that data and managing it ? And we realized there was a really big problem there . Not many people were building for the NGOs space .
Speaker 2And then I think that brings us and I would say that those people who are not building for the NGOs space , they knew what they were doing . Ngos space should not be like your primary market .
Speaker 1Why would you say that ?
Speaker 2That's a very interesting question and I'm sure Ali can contribute on this , but the sales cycles are very long , okay . So it's like , especially if you want to make good money , if you want to bring this the decision makers , you have to jump a couple of hoops For you to complete a sales cycle for a bigger NGO . Initially it was taking us like three , four months right , that's three , four months without any revenue . Okay , you go to an investor although I think we're very much focused on less investor-driven business building and more focused on market demand . So you go to an investor and say you're working for NGOs and you're working in education , no , no , and so they disappear . So that is what I would say . Ngo is a very interesting market , but probably we decided not to make it our primary market .
Speaker 3We decided to diversify .
Speaker 2Diversify significantly , so that brings us to .
Speaker 3What are we doing now ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So again , what do you think we're doing ?
Speaker 3So now what we're really doing is helping African businesses , and that could be SMEs , that could be startups support with how do you engage customers , but using WhatsApp . So really leveraging the technology that we've built to serve now a different market , because for NGOs , we might have been helping them do beneficiary engagement and we realized the same tools that enable that , allow us also to help , could also help businesses that are working and want to access people that are maybe hard to reach or hard to access .
Speaker 2You know what we realized actually in this process . So when we started building , we focused a lot on how can we build a technology that is easy to use for people with very limited technology exposure right .
Speaker 2So the fundamental was right from the beginning . And then , too , how can we build for people with very limited resources ? So a basic smartphone , limited internet connectivity . And then , two , how can we build for people with very limited resources ? So a basic smartphone , limited internet connectivity . And so , again , it set the fundamental right with regards to the technology that we're building . And so we were able to start collecting a lot of data . And it's coming in , it's coming in .
Speaker 2And then the second cycle of demand now from the NGO customer became how can we do more qualitative data analysis ? Because , again , it's more conversational data that they collect apart from quantity . So we started building a tool to do qualitative data analysis . And then , sitting at Antler , we all see it we started talking . We started talking , we were pitching to Cosen I hope , Cosen , you're watching this and you know how much you've influenced this decision-making . But we were talking to our friend Cosen and we keep trying to pitch . You know , every day is a pitching experience , right . And so we were pitching and he's like , yeah , but this NGO thing is still not very VC backable . So we started diversifying . I think it helped us to start thinking outside the box .
Speaker 2And then , ultimately , one day , ali and I were sitting down and we were like we have to pivot how which other segments can really benefit from this .
Speaker 2And so we started talking to businesses and we realized that one of their biggest challenge is that they are collecting a lot of customer feedback , but analyzing those conversations is such a pain because everything is still happening on Excel and spreadsheets and so probably you need a BI person to do the work and it takes a minimum of 10 days to analyze .
Speaker 2So that became a pain point that we identified . But secondly , if you're really even planning to talk to customers , of 10 days to analyze , so that became a pain point that we identified . But secondly , if you really even talk planning to talk to customers that are in the last my region how do you really engage them ? And so , having bringing a lot of experience and expertise from that place , we realized , for this is our space , so we embedded what's up , because we realized now 98% of internet users in Kenya are on WhatsApp , so why don't we hit that ? And so we started engaging people directly on WhatsApp and collecting data via WhatsApp , and so that has become a demand now , in a space where businesses are looking at , how can we do customer engagement directly on WhatsApp . So that's what we're doing . So we enable you to customize your engagement , collect feedback , do product updates and then we analyze that data to give you a net promoter score , sentimental analysis and define decision-making for businesses , and how long did it take you to get to this stage ?
Speaker 3So yeah , we've been building for three years yeah and , uh , what is the word ? Roller coaster ? Yeah , maybe roller coaster indeed . So like , yeah , I mean so many so I can't even summarize . I mean it's , it's the it's , it's the craziest journey and you'll be taken on like multiple loops and rounds and you'll be trying to yeah , I mean three years . Three years , yeah , really long time .
Speaker 1And do you feel like now you've got into a place where you're able to actually monetize much faster because your customer segment has changed ? And how are ?
Speaker 3you making money today ? Yeah , so so far . So we're a SaaS business , we're a subscription business and that is the same for all of our customer segments , and so we have I'm thinking about this as like a sales funnel , and so NGOs still make up and we're still making money from that segment today and we're going to continue kind of targeting them from an outbound marketing perspective and going after those kinds of clients . And now for us it's around . Okay , if that's one segment of our funnel , what are the kind of other segments that we want to target and prioritize first ? Is it startups , is it SMEs ? And how do we reach them in a way that doesn't kind of change our focus ? The good thing is , the product is the same , the product remains the same every day .
Speaker 3And even the roadmap for the product remains the same . So yeah , that's how we think about it .
Speaker 2But what's more interesting is like once we you know , I think sometimes when you're generally like trying to make things work , you can get into a rabbit hole , correct Right , and you're really not able to see even the other opportunities that are available in the current customer segment that you're serving . And so right now we just the NGO market . We're able to unlock or improve the customer lifetime value by just a few add-ons that we're bringing on board . So one of the things that Ali has a lot of expertise on is impact evaluation , and so right now we're building like templates , a theory of change , templates that are helping our existing NGO markets measure and monitor their impact and report on that . We were not thinking about that initially and it's so funny , right , like you are also creating a course with we have this partner called Open Campus my God , ocx is just lovely . So we are creating an impact measurement and evaluation course with them on how businesses and in this case impact focused businesses can be able to learn how to use Kiza to do their M&E but also report on their impact , and so Ali's doing all of that now .
Speaker 2But now , on the other segment , it's like a whole new world has opened up , right . So we have these FMCGs that have been trying for so hard and for so long to collect accurate , verifiable data efficiently , and we have a lot of players in the market , but are they really capturing the actual essence of user engagement conversations ? And so now , with our WhatsApp reach , we are able to hit more than 10 million across the country just on WhatsApp and make that data accessible , and so that has opened the FMCG market , has opened the startups like yours that want to have an engagement with their businesses . So our SaaS model , as Ali would say it , has grown into different revenue generating funnels and we're very happy to make some money finally , yeah .
Speaker 1That's great , and I think you mentioned a couple of different things , but I want to touch a little bit on the piece the element of focus , right , I think , as a founder , sometimes focus is really important and it's important to know when to stop Learning to stop .
Leading Remote Tech Team in Startups
Speaker 1How do you effectively do that Like ? How do you know when to stop building more for NGOs and really focus on the new market that you've opened up ? Or is it that you continue building quite heavily on NGOs and have a new team that is focused on the new market segment that you're opening up ? How do you navigate the complexity of that ?
Speaker 2dude .
Speaker 3I would say one of the biggest things . So we're three co-founders , so our CTO is based out of India .
Speaker 2Shoji , he's amazing cool dude , best dude in the planet , yeah , generally , and one of the best things .
Speaker 3I think one of the biggest things for us as a team of three is like accountability to each other . So , like you know , for example , googie might have this crazy idea that he wants to implement tomorrow and then , shod , you can be like , no , I can't . Yeah , or , like you know , you guys can say we need to be targeting all of these market segments , and then it's like , ok , I can come in and be like yes , in which order ? What's the priority ? Right ? So I think having that accountability amongst the three of us really helps with that element of first , like focus and like knowing your limits as a team . And there's a fine line , right , there's a line of like you have to still engage in new ideas and innovation and kind of encourage it , because , as a startup , you have to always be thinking like that . But then , at the same time , there has to be that balance in the team to be like okay , but what can we achieve tomorrow ? Right , right . So so I think that team accountability piece that's it .
Speaker 2I mean it's very interesting because it's always and I think it's always good to have diversity in the team yeah because the way ali thinks , let's say , as a intellectual , an individual and as a female founder , it's very different from the way I'll approach things . But , coming from a less prescriptive perspective , I think every startup journey is very different . Yeah , and so when we started , we had this friend of ours called Rahul Upal . He started this crazy startup called WooHooDude . He's the first guy who put in the money . He gave us a lot of advice that we couldn't use most of it , because you can only apply that advice based on experience .
Speaker 2You asked a very important question like focus right . We have some startups are focusing on product market fit , some are focusing on revenue maximizing , some are focusing on , like , different things that you're focusing on , and so for us , we wanted to really focus on figuring out how to maximize revenue , given that we are really significantly like operating on a shoestring budget , given the current fundraising market , you know , and the way things are , and obviously , having worked in the NGO market for a while , which is probably the most unpalatable , less , less sexy for the investors . So now bring it back . Focus right .
Speaker 2I think there are a few things that I've realized are very important for us . One , even if you're focusing , don't stop what you're doing so . When we were building the product , we didn't stop building the product . We kept improving the product and looked at how can whatever we've built really work in different segments ? And that did not destabilize even the technical team , because you have to understand that engineers are very like , so possessive about every piece of code they write , and if you wake up and say you have to , we're going to own your business now .
Speaker 2It's like they will look at you and think you're not the right kind of leader for us to work under because you don't have the direction . So you have to think about especially the engineering team , the guys that are working every day on the product . It's really difficult to change that . And so , having really personally understood that and having a CTO that really shapes that trajectory for us , we realize that we cannot change that . But we have to look at if what is important for us is the money , the problem then is not the product . The problem is how are we communicating ? And so that's when Ali took the sales position and said I'm going to be the head of sales and streamline everything . So when you say streamline , it's like think of Ali as the operating system . She sets up everything and puts up the structure to make things happen . And so when there's a result on that , when you start seeing , oh shit things are working .
Speaker 1We are converting we are selling .
Speaker 2Oh okay , then you start , you can follow the leader , right , you start following the leadership , and so that has really really helped in terms of schizo . So the the focus is less the product and more on the customer side and the money , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1I think that's a really good point . Like to know , sometimes it's not the product that's an issue , it's maybe the target that you're going yes , yes could be something completely different and you can repurpose your product ? Yeah , of course there's . On the contrary , the product might need to be changed . Yeah , they can be . It's different for every startup . Yeah , but you mentioned your product . Yeah , of course there's .
Speaker 3On the contrary , the product might need to be changed they can be it's different for every startup .
Speaker 1Yeah , but you mentioned your cto is in india . Yeah , and you have a tech team of how many people ? Eight , eight people , all in india all in india um . You're sitting in kenya . You're operating in kenya . I believe most of your customers are in Kenya as well right . How do you , how do you successfully lead a team that is not in the same country as you ? I know both of you have lived in India , so I think that's an advantage , yeah , but is it still complex ? Kind of doing running with that setup essentially .
Speaker 2I don't know either . You can start there start there .
Speaker 3So I think you're right , because we lived in India , there's some cultural context that maybe we have that I think helps a lot in terms of how we communicate with the team and how we build relationships . I think Shorji is massively instrumental , obviously , because he's sitting in India and he is the leadership for the team as well that they can see and interact with and know . But , yeah , I mean it does help that you speak Hindi , because sometimes you'll be having a conversation that will be like be having a really big problem and they just need to talk in Hindi maybe and we're not , I mean , for me , maybe I'm a little bit out of the loop , but at least I understand a little , um , but yeah , I think that helps .
Building Team Cohesion Through Transparency
Speaker 3Um , I think with remote working there's always challenges . Sometimes , like we did something interesting that was recommended to us , which I think might not work for everyone , but we were trialing like asynchronous working . So what if , for like an hour or so , one day a week , the whole team is on Zoom or whatever , on mute working ?
Speaker 3together everyone , and then you can , just if you have a question as though you were in an office , you turn off . And then you can , just if you have a question as though you were in an office , you turn off and then you are able to ask . And that was an interesting thing for you because you realised that you were a blocker for some of the things that the team were dealing with . So like I think experiments like that can really help , that it's a learning process .
Speaker 2Now there's actually one more thing to add on top of what Ali is saying . I have learned so much about a team , but it's a learning process . Now there's actually one more thing to add on top of what Ali is saying . I have learned so much about a team . So a team isn't just about oh , we need a backend engineer or let's hire a backend engineer . I mean so at Skiza we've gone through ups and downs significantly , and I'll just take you back because there's a proper history to this . So what we started ? We built a team in India first , when we were physically there . That time we had just raised a bit of money , I think about 50,000 or something like that .
Speaker 2So we got a fancy office that we work eight-se or six , eight or eight , eight eight yeah we got , we hired engineers , we started building this product , and , and so you know , like when you're just really stupid , like like you know when , when you're just directionless and you're just , you know , taken away by the idea of product like I just want to release a product and you focus on the product and so all the other things you're not really focusing on them , like team cohesion , understanding who fits in your team and why are they there , and especially understanding their why and your why and why it matches it's really key .
Speaker 2So , anyway , in 2022 , where did I build a product ? And then Ali and I flew in the country on May May 24th and I think May 28th the entire team quit the whole team . All your , the entire team , quit the whole team .
Speaker 1All your engineers in India . Quit Everybody dude like everybody .
Speaker 3This is before Shioji . Before Shioji before .
Speaker 1Current City all right .
Speaker 2Everybody quit .
Speaker 1And this is you had flown to India to set up a team . So we were living in India . We were living in India .
Speaker 3We were living in India then and then we had moved here to start , to start the sales process . Okay , okay , right .
Speaker 2And so imagine , and we lost everything .
Speaker 3You have a one-year setback . We lost the whole product .
Speaker 1Everything , the code , the designs , everything is gone and obviously like it took , and this is after how many months of starting Nine months .
Speaker 2Nine months of building okay . Or maybe less , no , no it's actually because , see it's yeah it was nine .
Speaker 3yeah , yeah , there's a lot .
Speaker 2There's a lot Like before you hire an engineer and start building . There's that process we go through the building is not just the code , but even the investor relationships that we had built , and so imagine losing everything and starting from scratch . But I remember sitting down and figuring out what did I do wrong ? Yeah , like why would everyone quit ? Uh , and so we ? I had a personal like a lot of introspection . Uh , as , what does does leadership mean ? What does it mean to build a team ?
Speaker 1what does ?
Speaker 2it mean to have the people be a part of this big dream . Right , and and I learned how wrong I was to the guys that had employed them because one like there was no transparency , there was no clarity , there was no proper direction . It was so haphazard , right . And so that experience significantly humbled me as a human being and as a CEO of a company , and so it flipped my position from sitting here to actually sitting at the bottom . So my communication is very it's not top-down , it's bottom-up and not the political bottom-up . So anyway , that changed a lot .
Speaker 2So when we brought in Shioji so when we started again now coming back to your question of what does it mean to really , how are we managing a team so Shioji coming in first , he's like this really intelligent IIT grad he hates it when we say that . He's like really smart dude . And then we have another engineering team . So what he did is he handpicked the guys he went to school with , but not IIT , from primary school , right ? So his friends in the village put them together . Some of them are not even engineers . He trained them right , and so they became the part of the team from the beginning . So even some of them , the product that they have built . Right now it is their first product right . So we built a certain level of cohesion as a team , a certain layer of understanding that currently we are a struggling startup , but if we succeed , we succeed together . So we distribute ESOPs , so every engineer is a shareholder in the company .
Speaker 3But I think like more important than all of that stuff . I think the biggest lesson and I think you touched on it was transparency , just like being really open about where we are what we're doing . Of that stuff . I think the biggest lesson and I think you touched on it was transparency . Yeah , just like being really open about where we are what we're doing . And , yeah , I think that transparency piece is like the biggest thing that helps with the team and how we manage the team .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think having a leader that is also based there is really good to set culture in that local you know area that you have your team working out of , or just like that more closeness that you have is probably an added advantage as well .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Balancing Work and Personal Life
Speaker 1Wow , interesting and just moving away a little bit from that , but how long did it take you to make your first shilling or first dollar after starting your entrepreneurial journey with Skeezer ?
Speaker 3So after the team quit , then we started building again from scratch six months after that .
Speaker 2Six months after that . Yeah , okay .
Speaker 3But then . So the first client took that long , and then the second client took another three months four months after that , yeah , and then like a massive break , we didn't really have any clients for ages .
Speaker 2For almost eight months .
Speaker 3Wow . And now we're really like . Now we feel like the product is in a really good place and the sales are moving much quicker . The conversion rate is moving , the conversion rate is moving .
Speaker 2The conversion rate is . We almost have five client calls every day . That's amazing we have crazy conversion rates right now . Yeah , but it took the first client was also like a big lesson for us . Yeah , if you're a founder and you're listening to this , never sell with Figma files without setting the right expectations .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2So because the production , the product is very revolutionary with regards to data collection in hard to reach areas , but the thing is we were not very transparent , also with the customer , that it's going to take a lot of time to build this yeah like uh , and also we pitched it as a perfect product .
Speaker 2Of course we did not . We were not clear about the bugs and all that . And we had , we had not . We didn't have a strategy of even customer engagement , uh , customer success , keeping the customer in the loop with a . We did have all that , and so that's why there was this thing happened . The customer became disappointed , so it's affected our ability to sell to any other customer because we lost confidence , right ? So so then one of our advisor called John Campbell , a very good fellow , one of the best guys we have in the team . He sat us and said guys you need , because John Campbell also came as a customer , so he runs a school , he's an advisor . But he says because I'm your advisor , I'm going to put my money where my mouth is .
Speaker 3Is that the phrase ? Yeah , okay .
Speaker 2So he decided to invest , to put to buy for his cool . But then he he says I'm gonna wear different hats and give you candid feedback and say I am disappointed as a customer because you don't engage me enough . You don't tell me where the pitfalls are , what we expect , and I'm actually just in the dark with everything that is going on . And so , yeah , that was the reason for the big gap . But now , if there's one thing that you have invested a lot of time is the sales .
Speaker 1So sales is not just selling , but the customer success , it's the post sales and the customer service , the whole thing . And I think as founders , we're always like , hey , we need the client right .
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 1So we sell them this dream .
Speaker 2Oh , my God .
Speaker 1And then we don't set the right expectations . Yes and I think what's really important sometimes is just setting those expectations in the first place . We're a little scared because we're not going to sign the client right , yeah , yeah , yeah place yeah , we're a little scared because we're not going to sign the client , right , but I think clients appreciate that and they want the communication if you're not ready . It's like it's just telling them hey , like this feature is not ready exactly but , best case should be ready in , like you know , a week or two weeks .
Speaker 1Is that okay ? Yeah , and that makes a world of a difference yeah that okay , yeah , and that makes a world of a difference . Yeah , as opposed to just blindsiding them .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , very true yeah , I think we've learned the hard way as well on that one .
Speaker 1So I can relate , um , but going into maybe a fundraising journey a little bit , um , you said you've raised a little bit of angel capital . Were you bootstrapped before then and then did you raise after ? Or did you raise your money and then start building ? Just walk us a little .
Speaker 2You should tell the story of how you used to work three jobs to find the product .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah I mean it was very much like um trying to pull money from different sources to try and cover this . So , yeah , there was a time , not for so long , but for a few months , for like six months , six months , yeah , I was working . Yeah , three jobs being two jobs and Skiza , wow . So that was quite crazy .
Speaker 1Now there's Tell us a little bit more about Ali is trying to .
Speaker 2So the story is so first , there was a time Ali was working two jobs One the accounting , the impact one .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And the bar one , so you'll do the bar job .
Speaker 1You had four , or three four jobs , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2So she'd work bar shifts , back at home , get the money , and then she will do oh shit , yeah , you'll have your day job , yeah , and then you'll have the other . Oh yeah , she had like four jobs .
Speaker 1Wow , and trying to pull the money and trying to build Skiza To build .
Speaker 2Skiza . So bootstrapping , like I think Ali , is potentially the reason why we were able to build Skiza like very early on , like have that stability , because now it meant I cannot work .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2I can be able to focus on , like setting up the structure . So I'm building with a team and Ali is working like 18 hours a day , right , and on top of that she's working on Skeezer .
Speaker 3Of course I don't know whether I'd recommend that for the long term . Yeah , I mean , I think that got to a point where I got burnt out .
Speaker 2Significantly .
Speaker 3Yeah , and I couldn't do all of that . That's just ridiculous . So that wouldn't necessarily ramble on that , but I do think like it did help having income .
Speaker 1It did help having income and it probably helped then raise some more capital because you weren't raising for nothing at that point you had already got into a certain point and then you had something to show .
Speaker 2Yeah , people , yeah and actually , you know , one of the things that gave me confidence about building this is that that part , uh , where ali really like went all in and said why , why don't you focus on this ? And I focus on finding the money . Right , so let's play to our strengths . Sure , so she will walk . You used to walk in the pub .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2From 5 pm to like 11 .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Right , you see that you know , like , if someone is like going all the way in on that front , like you have to go forward .
Speaker 1You're accountable as well . You're accountable as well right .
Speaker 2So I think for that the fundamentals were right . The fundamentals were right from the beginning , and I think that's why we've survived all different types of storms and deaths . We've died a million times . Yeah , so yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1Thank you very much . Okay , so let's switch gears a little bit . And I've come from a family as well where my dad started his business back in 2006 from like a bedroom in our apartment as well . Right , and there was a point where me , my mom , my brother , my dad everyone worked in our family business . We had graduated , we came back and what we often found is we would come back home and at the dinner table , we were just talking about work . Yeah , right , it was always work , it was always the business . We would come back home and at the dinner table , we were just talking about work . Yeah , right , it was always work , it was always the business . It was always um problem solving those um , so it was just firefighting actually and like these type of discussions every single day .
Speaker 1Um , at some point we were like , hey , we need to switch off , like , like , when we're having dinner , no more work talk , because when do you then get the time to really just wind down and switch off and come back reset the next day ? Do you feel that , as a married couple that are also co-founders of Skeezer , working together all day , how do you balance that ? Do you feel like you're always talking about work ?
Speaker 3Yeah , it's definitely been a learning journey . I think probably similar challenges right In the early days of like , okay , how do we actually switch off ?
Navigating Boundaries in a Startup
Speaker 3What are the boundaries Like ? In the office , for example , we're not married . It's like how we think about it . We , we turn off completely when we're in the office um setting , and then at home , inevitably you talk about work , but we do try and like create some boundaries or some rules or like if someone says I can't do work right now , you then have to step back and respect it . So , yeah , the boundaries definitely were . They were hard to um they took time .
Speaker 3Yeah , did it take time , took time , took over two years , for sure yeah , but it did enable us to do some things that I think are really helpful for our business . For example , conflict resolution is something that as a married couple , or like how we deal with conflict it came up maybe quicker than it would have done if we weren't married , like as founders , sure . So it made us think about things that maybe we wouldn't have thought about early on if we weren't married , and I think we've put now better structures in place that help us deal with things in a much yeah , in a very amicable in a very easy way that I think we set up really early on because of that Is this guys a Renew Capital yeah .
Speaker 1You know them . Yes , I know Renew Capital . They're a couple of founders .
Speaker 2And there's one day he said something that I realized oh shit , that's so true . He's like you can't bullshit Right .
Speaker 3Because they're also context . The founders of Renew Capital are also married , married . They're married .
Speaker 2Yeah . So he was saying as married founders , co-founders , you can't really bullshit Like there is no lie . Yeah , like you know , like you know , there's no lies . And I think it took us a lot of time to develop respect . I mean , dude , dude , that it takes a lot of time to develop respect , to empathize and think differently and draw the bond like I still don't have boundaries myself , I else I'll still wake up like I have a product idea . You know , I have a product idea and she was like dude .
Speaker 1Not now Go to sleep .
Speaker 2You know . So we still have those moments right . But I think it's really difficult generally , especially if you are co-founders who are married and going through a difficult financial time . When the business is down , it means both of you are sinking . And I have to tell you obviously again , if you're watching , be very close with your family . Like I mean , for us , if it wasn't for family , we would have never made it . Yeah , generally , yeah generally , like shout out to family , if you're watching this , we would have never , ever , ever , made it with our family . Like , uh , my mom will come and say I'm gonna spend time just cooking for you . Guys , you focus on business , never worry about cleaning , never worry about anything . I'm going to stay with you for a while . Focus on business . Her parents will come in and say , guys , what do you need ? Do you need any funding ? Do you need any financials ? Do you need to pay rent ?
Speaker 1Do you ?
Speaker 2have food , okay . Do you have money to go to work ? No , and they will send in money right .
Speaker 1So , like that , family support is key , yeah so has that ever happened to you where you've had to ask your family for money for rent or living just because you've run out of money whilst building the startup ?
Speaker 3yeah , I think we definitely have leveraged our network of both family and friends to make a lot of things happen .
Speaker 1Was that hard ?
Speaker 3No . Yeah it was hard .
Speaker 2So for some of my friends it wasn't hard . But it reaches a point where you feel like shit , I shouldn't be adulting , I should have my shit together For me , not for you yeah , like I think there's like an element of culture as well .
Speaker 3Like , for example , I don't think at home it's necessarily culturally acceptable to even talk about money or business , and so sometimes , like broaching some of those conversations are like difficult just because of that , whereas I feel like here business is an acceptable topic , like you can talk about work , or you can talk about money in a way that maybe but we've never borrowed money from anyone here . In fact , there's one no , no , no , but I'm just saying , this is the power .
Speaker 2We disagree yeah .
Speaker 2I don't think in fact me . There's this friend of mine called Sudev Singh . I think it's the cultural difference . Sudev is the kind of guy that when I have money , he has access to my card Right and he can go and use it . And when I'm stuck , I'm like Sudev how much do you have in your card ? I need to use it right now . And then for you it's like Sudeb how much do you have in your card ? I need to use it right now . And then for you it's like Ali comes from a place where money is not a conversation that you have , so people never get broke in their country .
Speaker 2In my country we get broke , so you should say it .
Speaker 3Yeah , I mean , I think it's just different and this is like the other element of our relationship . Maybe that is interesting is like the cultures as a married couple but also as three co-founders from three different countries like culturally there's a lot of things that are different .
Speaker 1So and does that add to the complexity , or does it ? It adds value , it adds value , yeah it adds the complexity as well . It's a but , like yeah , obviously , but like I do think it's valuable yeah , amazing , okay , well , I think it's time to wrap this up now , so maybe we can just have one last question tell us what's next for skeezer ?
Speaker 2this way going , say this way you sell the dream yeah .
Speaker 3So for now , the next thing is we just want more people using it , we want to get more customers , we want to get more feedback , we want to , yeah , keep keep growing , um , but yeah .
Speaker 3So if anyone is kind of curious to learn more about what we're doing , definitely follow our , like our linkedins , because we do a lot of building in public yes um , and and so if you want to learn more about what we're doing , or if you think it's interesting , we'd love to pilot and see how that goes I think also like technological , in the technical aspect .
Speaker 2I was just chatting this with ali yesterday and I was saying do you think we'll get to a point where , the way we have ios , the way we have android , whats WhatsApp will become an operating system of its own Right ? I mean , and so I was saying for us , one of the things that we really want to push up is mastering the art of data collection via WhatsApp and conversational engagement . Sure , and so we are really pushing on WhatsApp a lot . We have our friends on Tsukiba who are doing check out .
Speaker 2Tsukiba . They're doing very well on WhatsApp . You know e-commerce , and so looking at players like that that are doing really well and looking at how can we , you know , share knowledge and ideas towards building in this space . So for us it's a lot more on WhatsApp and a lot more analysis of the data .
Speaker 1Amazing . Well , thank you so much for your time , ali and Gugi . This was super interesting , learning about everything , all the ups and downs , both with Skiza and personally . I think as founders it's definitely not an easy journey and I appreciate you sharing as much as you can with everyone . So thank you very much , thank you so much , and by the way .
Speaker 2If you're an investor out there looking to invest in the next big billion dollar idea , we're actually fundraising right now . We're doing a very small pre-sit round of 250 000 k . We have 100k already committed . We're looking for the next guy to come on board excited for you have crazy numbers , crazy uh technology . The team is solid and on top of that , as you can already see , we are the future hi , I'm Vaidehi , the host of the Entrepreneurial Minds podcast .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for tuning in . You can follow us on Instagram at entrepreneurialmindspodcast , and subscribe to our channel on YouTube , the Entrepreneurial Minds podcast . Thank you , enjoy , enjoy .