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I'm Glad You're Here
Exploring the Enneagram: A Therapeutic Approach with Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT
Welcome back to an episode of I'm Glad You're Here. If you are vaguely familiar or new to the enneagram system, you'll want to listen to this episode. The Enneagram system is a great way of understanding ourselves and relating to others. As a therapeutic model, Enneagram therapy helps the client and therapist better understand the client's core values, beliefs and fears. This makes treatment more effective by providing a common lens for the therapist and client to navigate with.
We cover all 9 types in this episode in a very nuanced fashion - give it a listen and let me know your thoughts!
Check out Laurel's website to see what each type may be focusing on in therapy.
Luarel Roberts-Meese is an LMFT currently serving residents in California and Florida. Laurel Therapy Collective serves many communities - check out their offerings and staff here
Follow @laureltherapycollective for more insights into the dynamic therapy services they offer!
And follow along @imgladyoureherepod on instagram to stay connected :)
Welcome back to an episode of I'm glad you're here. Today's guest is Laurel Roberts Meese, an LMFT who runs Laurel Therapy Collective. I was drawn to Enneagram therapy as a practice and as a tool. I knew Enneagram from working with career counseling and exploring my personality type as I show up in work environments. But I truly had no clear sense of what that would look like in therapy. And I got so intrigued. So I reached out to Laurel, we connected and we came up with this episode. There's so much to cover within the Enneagram because. Well, there's just a whole system to explain, and I think that the way this conversation flowed was really nice because it gave a brief introduction into Enneagram without diving too deep into any one type. I'm talking a lot about the Enneagram without explaining it, so let me just tell you that it's a system that's used to categorize human personality into nine types. It helps us understand ourselves and how we relate to the world because all these types face basic fears, desires, and some generally predictable patterns of behavior. I thought this was fun, but the word Enneagram has Greek roots and refers to a nine pointed symbol. If you look it up, it's this outer circle with a triangle and hexagon inside so these personality types are considered to be developed by adulthood and it's more the conditioning and environment that you've Experienced in your life that help you develop into one of these Enneagram So kind of different than something like astrology, for example, that is based on your birth date and time and location. And so that one is a little bit predetermined if you will, and it's all about deconditioning societal norms. So Enneagram focuses on how you've been conditioned and how that makes you show up to the world in a certain way. By knowing your type and the corresponding fears and desires related to your type, you're better able to understand underlying motivations behind your behavior, which I think is really cool. So now I'm just going to call out the nine different types. Type one is the reformer. Type 2 is the Helper. Type 3, the Achiever. Type 4, the Individualist. Type 5, the Investigator. Type 6, the Loyalist. Type 7, the Enthusiast. Type 8, the Challenger. Type nine, the peacemaker. I know those were just labels and I gave zero description. I just wanted to call those out so that you can refer to this intro as we talk about the different types, but those are the names and if you look online, you'll see some of them are labeled differently. They have the same meaning. They just might not be called the same thing. So there's kind of a couple variances, but they all mean the same thing, the way that Laurel covers these nine types are really empowering and it's cool to see this stuff. spectrum of healthy to unhealthy tendencies of each type. And so my hope for you is that by listening to this, maybe it resonates as a way to really understand yourself a little differently and explore some of your own motivations or behaviors and, get support from Enneagram. We didn't get to dive into the therapeutic approach as much, but I thought it was just a really therapeutic lens on Enneagram itself. There's so much more we could have talked about.. I know we're going to have another discussion and I'm excited to hear what you think. So with that, let's get onto the episode. hi, Laurel. Welcome to, I'm glad you're here. It's so good to see you. How are you doing today?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:I'm doing great.
Molly Roklen:I, usually kick off with an intention for conversations and My intention and having this conversation with you and focusing in on the Enneagram work you do is to give people access to this tool, how they can use it and integrate that, whether it's in their own therapy or their own kind of self growth work. So that's, that's the intention of our conversation today. And I'm really grateful that you're here to have it with me.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that I love most about the Enneagram is that it is inherently therapeutic because of all the different styles of therapy out there, some are very insight oriented, some are very change oriented, you know, there's some people that just do insight therapy, and it's not about making change. It's about about understanding yourself on a deeper level. And there are some people that are like, well, we don't need to understand. We just need to change and, and really any kind of movement towards health is going to be a combination of the two. And that's what I love so much about the Enneagram system is that there is the insight component, but then also a very clear path to be the healthiest, most abundant version of your, Enneagram type. It combines that insight and that change as well as offering you a very powerful tool in relationship with others. so I could just talk about it with anyone for the rest of my life and, um, be perfectly content to do that.
Molly Roklen:I love that. My, so my first exposure to Enneagram, um, and to be honest, I, I don't use it that often. So I'm so excited to dive in here. I worked with a career coach and I did a test, a very comprehensive test, and something I noticed on your website is, um, you call out that you don't really need to take a test. You can kind of just read the different descriptions. When I saw that, I'm like, yes. I want everyone to know that because taking a test on like how you respond to all these situations is exhausting and I don't know if it was super helpful, um, but what you just said about kind of relationships and, and that kind of angle with Enneagram, I really noticed that at least with the career lens and jobs and relationships with your peers, I found that piece really helpful. So I'm really curious to kind of pull out for a second before I get too excited. Let's review what Enneagram is. I know there are nine types. I'm curious. Is your Enneagram type something that can change over time,
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:No, it's
not. Your
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Enneagram type does not change. Now, it's also not really established until late teens, early adulthood. Because it's, it's incredibly trauma informed if astrology or numerology are you're born this way, right? The, the nature to nurture, right? Then Enneagram is that nurture. And, and I really Believe in all the evidence suggests that it's about 50 50 like we come in kind of half programmed and Then the things that happen to us over the course of our life Do the rest of the programming right? So we know introversion extroversion pretty hardwired You just come that way and you can't change it and you nor should you There are beautiful things about being an introvert and beautiful things about being an extrovert But as far as can your type change once it's established, a general consensus is no. I have a question mark and other Enneagram experts will disagree with me, but I have a question mark about major traumas or, you know, something that really shakes your sense of self, being able to shift things a little bit. But I think the party line is no, your type doesn't change, nor should you try to change your type because there are no bad types.
Molly Roklen:It's more about embracing, right? Cause some of them I'll say when you read through, I'm like, Oh, I'd love to be that one, but not quite. And then kind of settling into the type that I am like, okay, I know that I'm seeing it this way. Cause grass is greener on the other side and there's something magical about the other ones. But, um, I'm curious. I know we're just talking now. I, I read typesetting. Seven, the enthusiast or
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:enthusiast. Yeah.
Molly Roklen:And I was like, Ooh, that one hits home. But when I took, the test a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, I got type three, which was more like the perfectionist, um, achievement based one, but interestingly at that time, I was leaving a career. Felt really like head down swamped. I need all the results and all the answers. And so I wonder if it's more just Me getting my footing, as an adult and really stepping into my type 7 versus type 3 felt a little bit more disembodied and just copying what I saw out in the world.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Well to do that differential, First of all, they're both very assertive types, like, these are not people that shy away from making bold choices and directing their own life. So that actually would probably be a common differential, like, which one are you? The reason that I don't like tests is because And the reason that I encourage everyone to just read the types and see what feels like an uncomfortable call out sometimes is because the Enneagram is really about what motivates you. So, we'll go through a description of the nine types in a minute, but For you to do that personal differential, I would invite you to look at is your through line of motivation in your life. Is it being successful and admired like a type three or is it to be, to be content in the sense of like free from pain and hardship and difficulty and also, experience seeking like a seven.
Molly Roklen:Oh, okay.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:You don't have to answer that, but that would be the differential on those two types. Very different motivations in life. Both of them are probably going to be high energy, might trend toward extroversion, but you certainly don't have to be an extrovert to be either one of those types. It's just more common. And they're going to be active, have very full lives. So. They can kind of look similar sometimes, but that core programming of what motivates you and what are you afraid of, that's quite different between 3 and 7.
Molly Roklen:Thank you for pointing that out. It makes a lot of sense because there was so much in both of them that I saw, but I see what you're saying. It's that through line. It's how you achieve, why you're achieving. Yes. I see. Okay. Beautiful.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Well, let's talk about the nine types because I just described them by what their core desire and core fear is. And that really is what matters. You cannot. determine someone's Enneagram type purely on behavior. When I, give presentations or do workshops, I say nine people can be at the same table at the same time for nine different reasons. And you don't really know unless you ask each of them why they're there and what's motivating them. Are you ready to go into the nine types? Let's do it. Okay. All right. So there are nine types. No bad types and we use numbers just for simplicity's they could be anything else But just keeping them different. We just use numbers so I'm actually gonna start with type 8 because type 8s tend to think that most people are Programmed like them and sometimes get frustrated when they're like, why did that person do that? That doesn't make any sense, right? So if we can get the Type eights on board. We're just going to have a smoother experience of moving through this. So type eights, they're very assertive. their core motivation is autonomy. Being in control, being the Master of their own destiny and sometimes they can be a bit of a bull in a china shop because Anything that is a threat to that autonomy. They want to eradicate the name that we give type 8 is the challenger they do not back down from a challenge they actually kind of enjoy a certain amount of conflict. Now, not just dramas for drama's sake. These are people who are very comfortable disagreeing and challenging the status quo and being a little provocative. And they also like to know that whoever they're challenging will give back as good as they get. So they actually build intimacy through a little bit of tension and conflict, right? Now, to a lot of people, that sounds horrible. Yeah, it sounds like a lot. Yeah, but to an eight, they're like, yeah, this is where the juice is. So the basic motivation is autonomy and the basic fear is of being controlled or manipulated.
Molly Roklen:Ah, I understand. Okay, great. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:A lot of people in positions of leadership, a lot of entrepreneurs and people that really are existing outside of traditional frameworks would be an eight. And we need eights. Eights can be when they are healthy, they are excellent protectors. They, are really good, caretakers of others that their desire for autonomy for themselves also extends to others and protecting the rights of others. Right. And when they're unhealthy, they are just like dominating power brokers who are just out for themselves and just, leaving a path of destruction in their wake.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. And I, I love the way that you're defining it right now with healthy and unhealthy, bringing back that. There's no bad type and there's even no, it's just kind of an adjustment within your type of like balancing the healthy aspects of yourself. And so really getting intimate on knowing your deeper motivation so that you can make those adjustments.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah, uh, to be a healthier eight, you would look at probably softening your startup with some people and also recognizing that most people don't build closeness and trust through conflict.
Molly Roklen:Yeah, that sounds like a very helpful tip for an eight if you're listening.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. And also like we need eights. We need you out there fighting the good fight and asking tough questions.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. And all the types are necessary. We need all the types. This is a helpful way of engaging with the world, knowing your motivation, knowing others motivations, and how to kind of make the most of it.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Absolutely. Totally.
Molly Roklen:I love that. Would Trump be an eight?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:I don't like to name names, but yeah.
Molly Roklen:I just had that gravitation with the provocative and challenger and I was thinking politicians make great eights.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:They do. You can decide for yourself where certain high profile eights fall on that healthy to unhealthy scale.
Molly Roklen:Sure, love that.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Alright, so Type 9 is in a lot of ways kind of the opposite of a Type 8. Type 9, their primary motivation is peace and contentment and connection. Their nickname is the Peacemaker. And that motivation towards peacefulness, towards harmony, and the core fear being, conflict and disconnection. So feeling isolated and alone and or in conflict. So these people are kind of the like go along to get along, but also very attuned to the needs of a group and wanting the group to be harmonious.
Molly Roklen:I was just thinking that these feel like big, like community people.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. They are more often quite introverted and need a lot of recharge time. They're very gentle, very kind people, and they need to be reminded to take care of themselves rather than just deferring to what the group or what others need to actually be a little more solid in themselves and what they need. Because. I mean, all of these programmings, are born out of experiences you have growing up. So, someone that had a really big, loud family, they might just kind of go along. Or, like, a really erratic parent, or just an environment that kind of demanded, or there was a benefit to them to be more compliant. would breed a type nine.
Molly Roklen:I see. And so kind of maybe more dipping in unhealthy is a little bit over placating and not having your own voice. That's why they need that recharge to be like Oh, this is what I need. This is what peace looks like for me.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. Nines are great at seeing all sides of a story. And being able to have empathy for all positions, sometimes to a fault, and sometimes, to the point of they don't know where they stand on an issue because they're just so able to see so many different sides which is a fabulous skill. But also, Nines, you should have your own stance on things. You are an important person, and you deserve to have your own values and your own, opinions, and we want to hear them.
Molly Roklen:What would be an ideal career for a type nine?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Mmm. I know a bunch of therapists, some really good therapists that are nines, but they need to make sure that they're always doing really good self care. Um, also mediators. I was
Molly Roklen:thinking like negotiators, mediators. Oh, that's great. Yes,
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:because they can really see all sides and try to decrease conflict. That's what they're great at. All types can be in all careers, but you want a nine in the room when you want tension to go down,
Molly Roklen:yeah. It's more like pulling on the right strength. Like it's easy to just call out a few careers that naturally I'm like, Oh, they're peacemakers and they want everyone to be happy. Then they can mediate tension. They're like, they would thrive in that environment.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Absolutely. Yeah. And then to move from unhealthy to healthy, just. Step more firmly into your own identity and sense of self and opinions and wants and needs and don't apologize for having them. So type one another type where we see a lot of politicians They they've got a couple of nicknames. They've got the improver or the idealist or the perfectionist people have different reactions to those words. I like the improver, because it's kind of non pathologizing, which is my favorite thing about the Enneagram. It's non pathologizing. No types are bad, no types are good. It's how healthy are you in that type. And there are strengths and areas for growth in all types. So the improver or type one, their deep fear is that they are bad or corrupt or evil. And their desire is to be good and do good in the world. So, these are people who, can often be very detail oriented. And, I would guess that Hillary Clinton is probably a one. Because she is so much about, making progress through policy. Through, like, instituting, different laws and, Looking at how do we make change, but like doing it top down, right? Like very thorough, changing things for the better for the most people, and kind of being tirelessly in pursuit of creating a better world, but doing it incrementally. I think an eight would be more like we need to overhaul the whole system and a one would be like, if we enact this one policy and it goes into effect, then that will pave the way for this next thing to be done, right? That very, by the rules, very like, here is how we create something and they, they are rule followers. Um, they may not like the rules, but they will follow them. Yeah. Or. Go through a process to change the rules
Molly Roklen:interesting and that makes sense that it's called the improver Because you're taking what's there you're working with it. You're making that incremental change over time You're not like let's blow this up. You're like, well, these are the rules. How do we use them to make the world better?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. Yeah, very detail oriented primary emotional experience for a one is anger You Anger that the world is unjust, anger at how things are, and that can really fuel them. But if they don't keep it in check, it can become really unruly, and it can, um, they can be a little more destructive, or kind of self destructive. Because remember, this core fear is that they're bad or evil, and that anger can kind of go both ways. It can either, like, really fuel them in fighting the good fight, or it can undermine what they're trying to do.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. And how is that kind of core fear that's from their environment from growing up that they're corrupt or evil?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. Yeah. The fear that they are, they're often incredibly good people and people that devote their lives to public service or towards, you know, overhauling, um, a classroom or the local education or government, or even just being a good community organizer. These are people that relentlessly want things to be better, but it's all out of this like Oh God, what if I'm bad?
Molly Roklen:Right. So I'm curious when working with, um, with any of the types, and this one is really calling out to me, this type one fear. It's not about overcoming that fear of being bad. It's like, it's about working with it. Or how do you kind of soften that voice to feel like you are a good person?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. Oh, I mean, for ones, it's self compassion and not holding themselves to a different standard than they hold others because their standard for themselves is often unreasonably high, like impossibly high. And even if they achieve something, then they move the goalpost because the work is never done. And with creating a better community or country or planet, yes, the work is never done. But also you can be a good person and rest. You can be a good person and know that you did a good job with something and um, just allowing yourself more grace and not just relentlessly criticizing yourself or feeling, that you will never be able to rest cause you'll never quite be good enough to work on that in therapy.
Molly Roklen:Right. Totally. So now I see it more like kind of, okay. This wave, like when we have this period of wanting having energy or space to really do a lot within our energy type. So if we're using an enneagram type, if we are type one and looking to improve and we have a lot of this momentum and we're going out there for the big fight, um, It's bringing in those self compassion tools and being aware that, Ooh, okay, when you really want to improve the world, the kind of shadow side of that is feeling like you're corrupt or you're doing this because you have to fix yourself and the goal is never ending. So it's bringing in those tools, bringing in that rest when you are in that stage of really, really. Kind of challenging yourself to do the most.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:I mean, I think the bottom line is turning down the volume on self criticism. Because a lot of unhealthy ones are just It feels like being in a metal box with just the loudest self criticism with the volume turned all the way up and they can never escape it. That's torture. Yeah. And no one Deserves to feel that way. So turning the volume down so they can be like, ah, that's my inner critic. I need a little bit of inner critic, but they do not get to be the loudest voice in the room.
Molly Roklen:Yeah, I love that. I love that. And now I just had such a nice visual of kind of the volume adjusting. It's like just tinkering and it's, acknowledging what's there and what's present. Um, it's giving it that voice without 20 megaphones and all the power, but it's also not pretending that it doesn't exist.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah, a lot of ones that I work with, they're actually very afraid of turning that volume down because they're afraid that they will lose their edge, that they won't be able to do as good of work, that they won't still be fighting the good fight if the volume gets turned down. And I'm like, well, I don't know. Do you trust me enough that we could try it and see if maybe it actually expands your capacity because you're not using energy criticizing yourself and now all the energy can go towards fighting the good fight rather than criticizing yourself. Yeah. And they're like, okay, maybe. Maybe.
Molly Roklen:And I like that you're saying that trust because I can see that if someone, especially identifying as like perfectionism, which I know is one of the terms for type one, but if you consider yourself a perfectionist, that is your drive and motivation. And so losing that can be really scary and it's not about losing it. It's about softening, giving your body the actual rest and adjustment it needs.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Absolutely. Yeah.
Molly Roklen:You mean powerful. Okay, let's do type 2.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Type 2. Okay, we're heading into, the three that we just did are the body triads, so often the way they experience things is very physical. Their stress or their emotions are somaticized in that 8 9 1 section of the Enneagram, and we're moving into the emotion section, so people who experience the world primarily through emotions. Right? They may not identify that immediately. So we're moving into the heart center, right? You have a lot of therapists that are in this little triad, the two, three, four, um, type two, they're called the helper and they might have some similarities with type nine, but once you understand the differences, there's, it's pretty easy to tell them apart. So type two is the helper. Their core desire is to be loved. To be loved and accepted for who they are. And their core fear is that they are unlovable. This is, often, a result of people who, for some reason, were led to believe as children that love was conditional. As an adults, love is conditional. You need to be an okay person and not, you know, be violating the rights of others and being respectful. But as a child, love is unconditional. It is the parent's job to love the child no matter what. But for people that didn't get this, this sense that they are good and they are lovable no matter what they do as a kid, these kind of conditions come up. So as an adult, they are doing everything in their power to be lovable. And that looks like making themselves indispensable. They are incredibly giving and nurturing. They're great at anticipating other's needs and meeting them before the person even realizes what they need. So, um, you know, a very concrete example is someone notices someone kind of swallowing and then gets them a glass of water before the person is even like, Oh, I'm thirsty. It's
Molly Roklen:like the best host you could possibly be. Yes,
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:yes, and actually twos, twos and threes make excellent hosts. They are just inherently generous and attuned to others. The issue with twos is that, When they're not very healthy, they can trend towards being a martyr. like, look at everything I've done for you. I'm going to sacrifice all my own needs so that you are taken care of. And you need me, right? And that, what they are hoping happens is that they give enough love that someday they will receive it in return. And it doesn't usually work like that, that, uh, particularly the way they go about it because they set up a dynamic where they are the caregiver and someone else is the care receiver. And the care receiver is not thinking all the time, like, Oh, I need to reciprocate because they often didn't ask for what the two gave. Yeah. So it feels like a gift, right? And if you are giving with the expectation that you receive in return, that's actually not a fair thing. Stance in life. So the journey towards health for the two is to take care of yourself first, to allow yourself to have needs, when appropriate, to voice those needs and wants to the appropriate parties, and to not get bitter and resentful, particularly if you haven't voiced those needs, that other people aren't anticipating yours the way you can do for others. They don't have that special skill..And to really, get to a place where you, you know, you are lovable regardless of how other people react to you.
Molly Roklen:Wow. Yeah. As you were explaining this one, I was thinking when it came to their fear and their desire, I'm like, Oh, I, this is challenging because they list on kind of Opposite ends. Yes. This fear of not being loved and just wanting the love. So it's almost, I could see the unhealthy tendency is, um, giving so much love, wanting it in return, but not voicing it. And then that bitterness and resentment grows of like, why is this person not loving me the way that I've loved them? I gave them everything, but the other was the receiver and never expected or asked maybe even for the glass of water or for all the things and the gifts, uh, that's a tricky one.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:there's, this, TV show called crazy ex girlfriend that there's one song that is just the most two song ever. And the song title is after everything I gave to you that you never asked for, how could you do this to me? The other thing I'll say about the two kind of approach to getting what they need is that. By taking care of others in an effort to receive love, you're actually depriving yourself of the opportunity to be lovable just for who you are and not for what you do. So if your strategy is to do things for others so they will love you, you will only ever feel loved for what you do, rather than feeling loved for who you are, even when you're not taking care of others.
Molly Roklen:Yeah, that's tricky.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Right? And if you ever get to experience just feeling love for who you are. That's the salve that will actually help you feel okay in the world.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. Yeah. And it also sounds like dipping in some of the healthy tendencies here are finding ways to nurture yourself.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. Be
Molly Roklen:your own best host. Give yourself that water.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes.
Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Put your, put your own oxygen mask on before helping others.
Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah.
Yeah, I could see like caregivers, health workers, nurses, like, these would be great twos.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:People that take tests, um, that are women or were raised as women often are mistakenly typed as a type 2 because it has all these, like, um, socially valuable traits. Feminine nurturing behaviors to it. So if you are a woman and you take a test, which I don't recommend, and it says you're a type 2, just keep a little skepticism because it's often measuring behavior rather than what's motivating you.
Molly Roklen:Interesting. I see what you're saying. And there's a lot of conditioning for kind of Feminine qualities to be this caregiver nurturing motherly person.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah, absolutely. All right Type three they can they are also an assertive type. So they're gonna be kind of more go getter This is the achiever. And these are people that Similar to Type 2, they want to be liked and admired. So their core motivation is success and admiration. And this can look a lot of different ways. It can look like, you know, being really socially popular and well liked. It can look like having a really, uh, Fancy and impressive career, or it can be a little more materialistic, having the nicest house and the fanciest car, but it's ambition is kind of the core experience of the three. The core desire is to be successful and admired, and the core fear is a failure. I see a lot, of people that fall into this category. Lots of workaholism, lots of chronic dissatisfaction because they keep moving the goalpost. But also, we need threes. We need innovators, we need entrepreneurs, we need people that are working hard. The growth path for a three would be to attune more to their emotional selves and to their deeper, less materialistic needs and to nurture their relationships to be deeper, rather than just being externally, Successful.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. And is that the need for the material items that, is that either just not having had that in childhood or in your environment, or is that
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:kind of praise was
put on that?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. Or, or viewing success. As the roadmap to happiness, whereas often I actually find that there's a little bit of an inverse that if you are relentlessly focused on achievement to the exclusion of everything else, you can get there, you can win that award or get that raise or buy that house. And but then if you don't have deep, meaningful relationships with others, you can't share that success with them and it feels hollow. So either people have this crisis of like everything I thought would make me feel fulfilled didn't work and they need to kind of come back to the drawing board and look at their values or they move the goalpost again. And think, well, maybe the next time if I get another promotion or if I buy another house, then maybe I'll feel happy then. So challenging your measure of happiness and success, because it usually isn't a promotion or a material object.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. The image I have in my mind is, um, someone just at the top of a mountain, like, okay, I reached it, but I'm here alone and now what? Now I need another mountain to climb. That was disappointing. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. And. Threes will always be ambitious. Threes will always want to achieve. But we can also look at, how are they balancing that with depth? And how are they balancing that with quality of life? Because we can't take away their drive, then they wouldn't be a three. But we can expand their definition of success.
Molly Roklen:I like that. So it's more bringing in their own values. What is meaningful for you? And then, okay, now success is personalized or tailored to you.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. Yeah. It's not other people's definition of success. It's yours.
Molly Roklen:And I can see that, um, as someone who took a test kind of like a couple of years after college, it was very easy to fall into the type three for me when I was filling it out because it's kind of, I was taught in school, achieve, compete, get better grades. I'm like, what, what does that prove? What do I get from that? Or what are the fancy internships do or the next, Best job. Yeah. And so that to me was a big, like societal push. Mm-Hmm. of achieve and succeed. And, um, now it makes sense hearing all this how I've rerouted to a more true definition.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Three is the American way. Yeah. The boots dropping the, you know, rags to richest story like societally. We love a three Yeah. We love hearing these. We pray three. Yeah. We praise it. It's culturally valued. But again, we need to balance cultural values with our own personal values.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah.
Molly Roklen:Absolutely.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Well, type four is going to be, feel dramatically different than the three. Type four. They are known as the individualists and these are people whose core fear is, being misunderstood or Not being unique and their core desire is to be unique and to be understood. These are often sensitive, highly emotional people. The unhealthy for would be that the tortured poet.
Molly Roklen:I was gonna say artist. Artists, creatives,
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:and original thinkers, people who have unique fresh perspectives on things. and people that are able to express themselves in a way that other people find really beautiful and unique and profound. The fours don't always care how it's received. They just, they want to be understood and to express themselves, right? They contribute so much and there are many people who find fours to be a little, exhausting. Because they're always in the deep feelings, and they're always having these kind of[intense] experiences and conversations, and for people that are not programmed that way, it can feel like a lot. Which leads the four to feel misunderstood, and unappreciated, and alone. Which then adds to the emotional agony and it kind of just becomes this cycle, right?
Molly Roklen:It makes sense because there's a lot of vulnerability that the four is trying to share. And so if they're misunderstood, that sounds really painful.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. I mean, fours are experts at vulnerability. They are authentic to the core, whereas threes can often be quite inauthentic and their journey towards health is about authenticity. authentic. There, there is no concern about authenticity. They're going to be honest with you and, and probably quite gently honest or depending on the person. Their growth path is sometimes to be a little less self involved and connected to others and others experiences. And also to, put as much value in the top half of the emotional wheel as they do the bottom Fours are not afraid of[intense] negative emotion. They can make great therapists because they can just sit in the muck and the mire and they are okay in the muck and the mire. Whereas a lot of other types are like, yeah, we don't really go down there too often. We don't like it. And the four is like, down here is fine. You know,
Molly Roklen:I see. I'm curious if, if you would classify Taylor Swift as a four.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Oh, well, the Swifties have a lot of feelings about that. Um, I would just get, again, we're observing behavior because none of us knows, knows Taylor Swift or what motivates her, but given her career, I would say she's probably a three looking at success. Right. But I do think you're on to something with. The, the four, um, we haven't talked about, you have a primary type and then you have a secondary type that is a wing, like a type right next to them. So If I were going to take a guess, I would say she's probably a three with a heavy four wing, which is like a vacation home that she has access to all the time. Got it.
Molly Roklen:Got it. Like
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because she does have this capacity for creating art that is unique and original and emotional and[intense] and we love her for it. But also Living in that world full time sounds pretty tiring.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And there's that deeper drive, that ambition that has made her so successful.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:So successful. Yeah. Yeah. So that's type four. Now we're moving into the head sector people that experience the world primarily through and cognitions. So type five, I have a real soft spot for type fives because I feel like they are so withdrawn and generally pretty introverted. They don't have enough people championing them. Type fives are four and five are pretty withdrawn and introverted. In general, but fives are a little more cerebral, whereas fours are in the world of emotion. Fives are in the world of information and knowledge and expertise this So you also have a lot of innovators and original thinkers in the five sector. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, like people who like really created incredible things from scratch, are often fives. Fives are people that want to take apart the toaster just to understand how it works. Okay. And that is a great afternoon for them, taking apart that toaster, where a lot of other people are like, well, I don't really care as long as it works.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. It's like a fascination of how
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:things work. Yes. And fives are very good at niching down into their unique interest. You see a lot of, people that are experts on one specific thing. My father is a French horn player, and he actually started making French horns and, very niched down into this, this one thing and, if you, yeah, and if you, want to talk about French horns, he's your guy, but if you want to have general interest conversations, I mean, he could do that, but if you really want like that passion and[intense] intensity, French horns are the topic.
Molly Roklen:It's like an expert. They can really drill down and become an expert of a topic.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Absolutely. Fives, their core desire is, to protect their time and energy and resources. And their fear is of being depleted and the vulnerability that comes with depletion. So fives, kind of the antithesis to twos, they have no problem saying no. They have no problem taking care of their own needs before others. They're not inherently selfish, but they're just kind of like, no, I'm not gonna give away. More than I have. That would be stupid. Why would I do that? In fact, I'm very practical. Very practical. Can be a little hoardy. Like, like, it's like, well, okay, you don't need all of those. My partner is also a 5, and I'm just like, could we give away some of these t shirts from high school? And the answer is no. So, Because, you know, the five, they, they don't know if they're going to need it someday. So, seeing everything as a resource, right? Including information. If you need in depth research or analysis, ask a five. If you need someone to put together, a very detailed spreadsheet about specific data set that they're an expert on. Oh, yeah, they're your person. If you are working with a five or you have a five in your life, you need to make a little more space for them and actually invite them into conversation and invite their opinions and ideas because chances are there are some of the best opinions and ideas out there, but they're not going to volunteer them all the time.
Molly Roklen:Interesting. Interesting. I was thinking how. This shift in, in tech and AI and data, I'm like, Oh, I think fives are really great here. And to be so successful in those careers and those spaces takes all that dedicated effort. So then it also takes those collaborators that can say like, Hey, what are you discovering? Can you share it? How do we explore this as a team? And yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:We think of fives as very niched down, but Also, really excellent fives. They're thinking very broadly and ahead of their time. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who is a five about at the time there was a Criminal issue and Apple was refusing to unlock the accused phone to give the data and everyone was kind of like, why wouldn't Apple do that? And then my friend was like, no, that sets a horrible precedent that Apple will unlock anyone's phone and being able to think about the long term ramifications of any policy change or decision. That is the work of a five.
Molly Roklen:Powerful. That's amazing. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Strategy and what will happen three steps down the road if I do this, which is a result of them trying to conserve their energy that like, if I do this, will I then, will then something else be demanded of me?
Molly Roklen:Right. Or will I have to like, now I start again at zero or if I take that back now the policy changes. Yeah. It's very mindful.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:It is. It is. And we can encourage them to be generous with their thinking and their ideas and their opinions. And also they don't need to hang on to their t shirts from high school. They really can get rid of those.
Molly Roklen:I love that, that little personal plug.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Alright, we've got two more. Just enough time. Type six, um, their core desire is to have security, to be secure, and I would say also to be connected. And their core fear is of being without security. So these are a little more anxious people, people that, um, have a, Very push pull relationship with authority they kind of need someone to be in charge, but they don't necessarily trust them Like do you have my best interest at mind? Do you have my community's best interest at heart here and Being willing to challenge and kind of demand more from people in positions of authority But also so community oriented. These are people that are going to join a bunch of groups. They really want to be connected and, experiencing that security through connection.
Molly Roklen:Right. They're looking out for the community too. They are. They
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:really are. And you know what the community deserves. With this high anxiety, can come a little bit of neuroticism, a little bit of, other flavors of mood disorder. All the types can experience many diagnoses. But, with a 6, 6 is the only type that has two presentations There is the phobic type, which is the very fearful and kind of everything is done to ensure security. And then there's the counter phobic type, which is the like, well, there is no security in the world. So we're gonna take all the risks. We're gonna skydive. We're gonna make risky investments. Because they're trying to master the anxiety. They're trying to, Conquer it once and for all through these kind of high risk, uh, activities and that can be pretty fascinating to watch. So a counterphobic six might be mistaken for an eight because they're willing to do these kind of bold crazy things.
Molly Roklen:Oh, interesting, but it's really anxiety driven.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah. Yeah. So that one I feel like six, they make great friends. They're incredibly loyal. You really have to wrong them, for them to cut you off. Once you're cut off, you're cut off for good. But they're very loyal, until you give them reason not to be. And then we're at the end here with type 7, which is, the enthusiast. And type 7's, their core motivation is to to, be content, but it's not the peaceful kind of contentment that you find with type nine. Type sevens find contentment through experiencing everything at the buffet of life. They truly want to try everything. Their core fear is of being deprived or in pain. So this is the kind of like, running from discomfort. It's like, well, I'm feeling a little anxious, but I've got kickboxing tonight. And after that, I'm going out to happy hour. And after happy hour, I'm going to go to a movie in the park. And after a movie in the park, I guess I'll sleep a little bit. And then tomorrow we're going on this hike. And it's just, I mean, these are energetic, outgoing people. They are the life of the party. They are super fun to be around in the short term. In the long term, it's hard to keep up because they have so much energy and so much zest and passion for life. And if you want someone that will, drop everything and go to Bali with you on a day's notice, ask a seven cause they are quite likely to say yes. Because this might be the only time in their life they can drop everything and go to Bali. So they have to do it.
Molly Roklen:Mm hmm. Wow. This is amazing. The FOMO is real. The
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:FOMO is
real. I feel so seen. Like, I love that this is how we're ending, so I'm like, wow, I feel so
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:called out in
the best
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:way. Absolutely. Okay. Well, sevens, when they are healthy, they actually can recognize and tolerate uncomfortable emotions, because it is part of the whole experience of being human, right? And so, if you can remind yourself, yes, this discomfort is not something I am enjoying feeling, but this is the only time I'm going to feel uncomfortable in this way, in this moment, and I'm going to experience it, right? Totally. Not letting your FOMO run you ragged and impact your health or your financial health or your relationships, following through on commitments that you've made. These are all things that a seven can do to be the healthiest version of themselves. Slowing down a little bit and recognizing you're not going to be able to do it all in life, which I know is horrible to hear, but you're not going to be able to do it all. You'll be able to do a lot and Focus on the quality of what you're doing.
Molly Roklen:Totally. Totally. Yeah. This slowing down has been one of the biggest lessons that I've embraced and continue to embrace because I'm an imperfect human. But, um, I love, I love the buffet of life visual and like, yes, that's the feeling. Like there's just so much and it's so exciting and I want to do it all. And then I'll completely deplete myself and be like, was it worth it? Cause now I'm exhausted. Need to learn that. It's okay to pace myself.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yes. The other thing I see with sevens is that none of us get through life without some bad things happening. And sevens often are really lacking in coping skills other than distraction and building up some of those coping skills so that you have them, let's say you are an extreme sports enthusiast and that is kind of your coping strategy is like getting back on the slopes or, training for the Ironman, right? And then you have a major injury. And then you have something happen in your personal life. Well, you can't use exercise. You can't use a lot of, the other ways that you have coped. What do you have in your arsenal, because, we can't outrun everything.
Molly Roklen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Mm hmm.
Molly Roklen:Wow. Powerful. I, I have so many more questions. I feel like we have to do another one here. Sure. Um, but thank you so much for all of that information for kind of highlighting the, the healthy, the unhealthy kind of finding balance and really reminding us that there's space for all nine types and there's, We need all, all of these types. We do need them. It's a matter of, yeah, finding the best ways to collaborate, finding what's meaningful, connecting with your motivation and yeah, finding those healthy tendencies. It's a really beautiful way to share this tool. So thank you so much.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:My other favorite way to use the The Enneagram other than for personal growth to recognize your strengths and your areas for growth is in relationships. So I can come back and we can talk about what does it look like to use the Enneagram in relationships? Because it, it is a game changer when you can fundamentally understand that your partner has completely different core programming. It makes conflict less personal. Like everything that they do, makes more sense. Even when it's in conflict with what you want and what you need. So I would, I would love to talk about that.
Molly Roklen:I, and I felt that I, I think my partner, I know my partner's a type five now from that description. And, and in that conversation, like, oh my gosh, this is a guidebook on, let me, okay. I know if his motivation is this, let me try that. And it's just a beautiful toolkit to offer. So I would love that conversation. Super powerful.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Let's do it. All
right. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Laurel. What's the best way to connect with you?
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Yeah, I'm easy to find on the internet website. Um, so I should say I have a group therapy practice or a group. Like, multi clinician therapy practice, um, and we serve, California, Florida, Pennsylvania, and then we also have licenses pending for Virginia and Washington State. And our website is LaurelTherapy. net.
Molly Roklen:Amazing. Well, thank you so much, and we'll talk soon.
Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT:Okay. Thanks, Molly. Bye. Bye.
