SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, good morning, everybody. Morning. It's always interesting. We're this is podcast two for the day. And we've been doing this a little bit where we shoot a couple podcasts in one day. So it's always weird we do the same intro as if we haven't redone this once. But hey guys, one. So hey, good morning. It's uh it's good. We are um so we're we're gonna shoot a bit of an interesting one here that I don't know how it's gonna go. So we'll see how this goes. One of the questions that we have been uh chatting about a lot is um how do you pick a church and how do you leave a church? And so I've been here now. Oh dude, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been here now uh 16 years, 17 years, 17 years, uh that I've uh been on staff. Uh and in those 17 years, we have seen lots of people come. We have seen lots of people go. And uh the coming is always marvelous, and the leaving is always painful.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

We have like we we are a river that flows, a river that flows living water. We are a highway. A pathway with with some on rants.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

All right, so let's start this way. Um talk about uh a bit of our church journey um briefly because I think we shared it. But um so my experience with this. So all right, go ahead, fire away. Grew up in the church. Uh the closest thing I would have ever done to attending any other churches uh would have been sometimes we wouldn't go to the Summer's Corners Church. They had uh a Sunday night youth thing, or it might have been I think it was Sunday night youth thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Oh really? They had like a youth event on a Sunday night.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I think so. It was something like that. Josie would give me all the details if I would ever tell her that I'm recording these things. She would help me a lot. Um The other thing we would have done was uh I remember going to Promise Keepers, um, some of those types of events uh back when Promise Keepers was big. Like it literally was such a big turning point for my faith. Like wild. 50,000 men singing. 50,000 men. I come from I come from a church of 300 people living in a town of like 5,000. No. You go to a place of 50,000, everybody's singing, it's pretty stinking wild. Yeah, yeah. My background was like uh Promise Keepers. Um so then uh during my teen years, there was a lot of uh fighting in the church and a lot of like um bathing. Yeah, yeah. Humans together fighting.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

People who love their neighbors and love colors and broken people trying very, very hard.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Um but anyway, so uh a lot of people left. We never left. My parents left at that point. Um in my older teen years, and so they went to Bradley Street and we we stayed here. Went to SBC when I was 18, uh 2001, 2002, was up there for a year. Um and so would have gone. Uh I'm trying to remember if we Where'd you go at SBC when you were going to like I know we visited a few churches. I'm trying to think if we actually really settled anywhere. I don't think I did a whole lot of church, to be completely honest. I know we were at Southland once. That one sticks out. I know we visited a few other churches.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Did you there for a year?

unknown 2:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Like a semester, a uh September. September April. April.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

How many times did you go to church?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I have no memory. Ten? I don't know. Dude, I know you're asking me questions.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

I just this is hilarious. You went to Bible college. And the one thing that wasn't like prioritized was going to church. It might have been. I don't know. I'm just asking.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Um be at chapel every day. Leave me alone. Ready of chapel five days a week. Yeah. Um we were we were chapeled out. Man, I wish I had a better memory. Okay, so came back. Uh-huh. Um, and then at that point. Yeah, no, at that point I would have gone just straight back to Mount Salem. Um, stayed here when Josie and I got married in 2004, uh, went to Hamilton. Uh, we started at a Baptist church and then ended up at Church on the Rock, which would have been Dave Overworld's church, which our connection there was. He did a bunch of the youth camps around here. So we knew him, so we stayed connected there until we moved back.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

So did you end up just finding him? Like, was it like you heard that he was like down there and you were like, Hey, I wonder where his church is because you remember from youth, and then you decided to go?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

No, but that brings back a really good memory. Um, we would go up there, so their church was planted as a youth church. Oh. So it was a conglomeration of whatever 10, 15 churches that hired him to start a youth church. That was how Church on the Rock started.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

So it's supposed to be like, hey, your the youth are all gonna go there.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Well, yeah, and so it was a lot of Sunday nights. And I don't I don't remember if it was every Sunday night. I know we would go up to that sometimes. Um yeah. And so then when um so we were up there for two years, two years, I think, and then we moved back. Yeah, because Josie, yeah, I think so. Anyways, and so then when we moved back here, um, began serving here and have never left. And so I've experienced a lot of different churches, but have never gone through some of what you know, the normal people with unique callings. Mine was just or traumas. Oh yeah. I I we had a good youth, like and I had no reason to leave. Like there was a lot of chaos in the church, and but I mean at that age I didn't understand it. I mean, to this day, I still don't understand all of it. I don't know if anybody ever really does, but didn't understand, but didn't didn't feel compelled to leave. I know we we visited some other churches at some point, like we visited uh North uh park in London. Uh we visited Grace for a while, Grace Community Church. Uh, but I don't know if we ever were in church shopping mode where um and and I don't know why that is. So you're more in we don't know mode rather than church shop mode. Yeah. Or just kind of like well, in in my experience, it's always been good here. Like I even when things were going really bad, I had a good youth group. And then when we first started serving here, we had Benny and Esther and Ernie and Lanita were really close, and and so we had good people, and I enjoyed the job, and I enjoyed the I don't know. So then you just kind of say so. That's where where some of this, like when I have opinions on things, also very much recognizing this is that's the extent of it for me.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

So you were six years in when I met you. Yeah, five, six years in when I met you.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Oh wow. Oh, and oh yeah. You were a young pup. Dude, I was I was a child. Dude, wow. Yeah, yeah. This is not about me being a child, but I I I am glad a lot of those sermons are not recorded because I am curious on cassette what it is that I would have started. Yeah, but do we still have all those cassettes we should we should go through? No, I think it'd be terrible.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

I remember listening to some cassette stuff and I'm like, oh, and it's so long. What's your experience?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

What's your experience?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Oh man. Um how to find a church. Um well, the first church I went to, I mean, obviously it was the bus road church for like three Sundays. So I wasn't really finding the church. That was more like the church trying to find me. Um I think the next attempt was um when the uh girls invited some boys to come to church. It was a um a dating ministry. Um very effective.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Aaron Ross Powell Oh, 100%. Well, you gotta open the like unless you're in a big church, like that's where hooking is. Very effective, very effective, you know, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:09

They were just trying to work on the DNA pool. Um so going there, I mean, that's my experience was walking in and was like, oh, this is what church is. Right. Like I had no idea. Like I I probably could have walked into any style of church and just been like, oh, like this is church. I really didn't have any concept. Like the biggest concept that I remember was I think going to a wedding at um it was at the Lutheran church here in town. And um my um one cousin, uh Dita, was getting married, Ken Kenny's mom, Kenny's mom. Good. And I remember being there and it was Stan, Neil, Stan, Neil, Stan, Neil, Stan, Neil. And I'm like, what are we doing? Why are we why are we doing this? And again, no idea what's going on, but I was kind of oblivious to a lot of things uh as a 13-year-old. Um so how to find a church, I think my experience would have been um the most thing I could talk about was the time where I ended up with um going through kind of like the difficult situation where I'd been serving uh for 15 years, and then we had gotten to the place where we had been like, okay, it's it's time to go. Um and we we hung there for a long time, knowing that the end was going to come, but wanting to make sure that we got to the end the way that we thought we should. Um so doing our best to leave, not because of you know, bitterness or hate or but doing it because we we felt like we got the green light from God to go. Uh and that was hard because we ended up staying through a lot more than what I would prescribe to people or saying that you should. Um but I I wanted to make sure it was time. So then then it was like, okay, where are we gonna go? And typically speaking, what you end up doing is you end up looking in your algorithm, if we could say it that way. So what are churches that are similar to where you were going? So we toured a bunch of different churches and we'd walk in. How long of a process was this for you?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Whoo, man, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Wanita would be able to help me out with this, I bet. She'd probably say, no, I don't remember. She always says that. Um I think we were it was close to a year. I think it was something like that. Um definitely in the in the nine-month range, but I think it was up to a year. Um, but we would we would tour different churches. Um we tried several in our area. And I mean, they all at the end of the day, you come in, there's people greet you, you're um they'll sing, um, there's a message, um, they might sing again, and uh there's some fellowshipy stuff, and then you go home. Uh and that's kind of what the experience is. Um, it's pretty much every church. Yeah, every church. In our in our context at least. Yeah, yeah. And so I I was really I just couldn't settle. Like every time I went to a church that was very similar to where I was, I just never I could never settle. Um we went back to our ascending church, we went back to a bunch of different sisters' churches, we um we we we we came here a few times. Um and really at the end of the day for us, I ended up I ended up being like, I need to know that this is where God wants me. Like I I just I don't want to be where I want to be. Um because I felt like there was a part of my journey that that's where I made my decision to end up where I was. And although God used that journey to to grow me, to discipline me, uh uh chisel away a bunch of who or what I thought I was supposed to be to reveal himself to me. Uh I wanted to make sure that this next step was what he wanted me to be. Um so for us, traveling around, we just never felt like where we were was where we were supposed to be. And I don't know how to define that. Um I know that there was a lot of- you and Wanita felt the same.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Like, was there ever a church where you guys went to that one of you felt yes and the other felt no, or was it fairly unified?

SPEAKER_02 11:31

I think it was fairly unified. I think it was I think obviously when Juita came here, she felt like she was coming back. Sure, she grew up in this church. Right. Yeah. But for her, like I think she would say, and I I don't want to speak for her, I I can just add some comments that she would make. Like she would she would say things like, It's it's like it's her home church, but there's very few people that she knows. Like in terms of like all the people that she remembered. Like so it's not the same place, right? Like so, even though she's coming to the same address, it's a different place than what she left. Um and that's the type of thing that she would say. Um but I I do know the distinct thing. Like I I remember going to some places and you know, being really treated well and not not being comfortable. Like just even though I knew all the songs, I knew I knew the text, I knew the I knew the Bibles they were using. Like I go to a place and like yeah, they're breaking out the these and the thous from the King James, or at least it's the new King James, you know? A good Bible, and like uh right, and you all the things that you think would make you feel comfortable didn't make me feel comfortable. And I I don't know how to really explain that, except I think God worked that in me so that I wouldn't go to the comfortable, right? I would have to come to him, and I think that's part of the journey that he wanted me to experience. I just know that when we came here, and this was my experience here, that everything that I've ever heard about Mount Salem was a negative. So this is the context in my mind, and this is kind of like as I walk into this place, it was always from the, you know, it's uh it's a bad place, it's a bad leadership, it's a bad church, it's an evil place, they're liberal, they don't serve Jesus, they don't so all that kind of context that's just like it wasn't just to be just to be clear, this was not strictly just Mount Salem.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Like this is how growing up in the church you were in, they would have felt like that about a lot of churches.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

They would have felt like that about a lot of churches that are outside of what they consider to be a you know, a correct line of churches.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Because I know in the last couple of years there's I mean, we've gone through some situations that are hard that people are strongly opinionated on where they would say, well, that's just Mount Salem. But when you were coming, that wasn't that. There there was in obviously because it was local, they would know us a little, but there wasn't this big reputation. It was just the fact that it was completely different in some of the beliefs than what you would have. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah. It was there were so many things that would have been, you know, prescribed as opposite on the surface, right? Just some of the visuals of the way things are approached, but not necessarily the core of what the belief is. Right. So for me to walk in here and like you know, and God sent me out with this whole experience by having some of Winnie's friends show up and you know, Mennonites pray in heaven down and feeling like the Holy Spirit filled the room and just being floored at the experience. And then the difficulty is that the experience that I had in that moment was the same experience I had walking in here. And I couldn't shake it. So what I had was a head that was saying, No, you know. Right. And a spirit inside of me saying, What do you mean you know? I thought you were supposed to know me.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Like I know what you know, but I thought the whole end game was for you to know me. Right. And I'm like, it was hard. I I mean we we I I did not settle on that. That was a um that was a stubbornness. It was probably pride. Um, it was fear. Um I'm sure it was a uh a lack of comfort. Like I didn't know any songs. Right. Like nothing. I um you guys would typically speak from three or four different versions of the Bible that um I think we had a kid up on stage. Well, and that's not a complaint. Like it's a reality. But like from me coming in, sure. Like how like and I I think about some of the comments that I hear about people walking in the building and I chuckle. Because when people say though the music was so loud, and I'm like, Because I I had the same experience. Like I'm not it's not you weren't even loud when you No, no, not at all. Like but like in the same way, I get the whole like that's different vibe and whoa vibe. And yet I get the no, we feel like God wants us to be there. Right. And that to me was I kept I kept coming back to and I and I we talked with Benita about it. I I I just I couldn't shake that I thought that this is where God wanted us to go.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Which it connected to a lot of other things like post-decision that I realized. But in the moment there was nothing up front. Right. So in terms of how to find a church, I didn't look for what they were singing because it didn't vibe with me, because you guys weren't singing hymns. I didn't look for style of music, and I didn't look for, you know, um, you know, who the speaker was. I didn't look for like I was looking for the presence of God and for him to say here. Like literally to point his finger and go and say here. Right. And that was my that was what I needed to have my decision based on.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Well, and and to dive into your previous experience a little bit, the the meshing of power and relationship became a pretty dark space. Correct. So for you to go into a place where now your new brother-in-law was going to be your pastor was a risky move.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah. Right. And so I I think there was there was a lot there. So one of the things, okay, so let's jump into this. I I think one of the things people don't understand is the reason we we need to start with how you choose a church is that it becomes the for the most people the defining um framework by which they also leave a church.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah. And I I think one of the things that so I was listening to in my mentoring this last month, they were talking about this. Um actually a session that I'm gonna make you and Trevor at some point watch, just super good. Uh super, super good. But talking about how how much um Christianese we use in terms of this, these decisions that we make.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Right. And and what we end up doing with a lot of these is we end up throwing the name of God around, but we also have to create a villain in order to make us look like a hero. Right. Right. And so uh often, you know, and uh the the reason I love the way you share your story is like you're not bashing the other churches you visited. It was just this is where you felt God calling you to.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Oh man, we went to some wonderful places. Like to be honest, like there were a few places we walked into and it was just like, man, this is really like there's a sweet spirit here. Like it was good.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Well, and there's there's some incredible churches. I mean, one of the things that we've had the opportunity to do is to get to know a lot of pastors, and there's a lot of churches I'd like to go to. Oh man, there's some great people. So, but one of the things that that we go is we go. You know what's nice? I'm sorry. No, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

You know what's nice is that that's true. Right. Like there's a lot of good people and a lot of good pastors that are leading like lots of good churches with good people.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Right. Like And we're not saying that.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

That to me is that to me is like awesome. Right. Because I I didn't have that perspective before. Right? Like because a lot of it was based on like a theological alignment. Right. So that would define if a person was good or bad. Right. And that's not the case. And I hope people are hearing me correctly when I say that. But there's some core issues of faith that matter, and there's some other things that don't have the same degree to which they matter. Yep. And a lot of times it's those things that define good or bad, right? Right or wrong. And they're not. Right. Not I think sometimes God's just like what you humans. Right. Right? Like, I wish you were more the human that I made you to be rather than the human that you're acting like. Anyway, but like I I hope that's clear. Yeah. Because like, I mean, the the churches that I went to and visited, I there there would be I would have no reason not to be in those places to to serve and to raise a family and to love. Like honestly.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Like I yeah, beautiful people, beautiful places.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

So I think so as we're talking about this, I think and going back to our experience in Hamilton, I would not have said an either or that God called me to one or the other. So when we came back to Mount Salem, we also would not have said God called us here, but that just seemed to be where we were. So I think sometimes people we we can over spiritualize some of this, but it goes, okay, so when we came back to Mount Salem, especially when I started joining staff, um Josie had to go here too. She had a 25-year-old, 26-year-old husband. Like this was a gong show. And so, like, what this is where I think at this age, I sometimes struggle with these conversations because I'm like, So why are you choosing to come to Mount Salem now? Or why are you choosing to go to you know whatever church you're going to? And if you can't articulate that, I worry sometimes that you know, then then you're not gonna stay or you're not gonna whatever. But then I look back on my own journey and I go, no, like God's God has a lot of grace for that. He had a lot of grace. I I I think the problem is that we just aren't honest about it and and we make it into this big crazy thing that it's just not. Right. I I need, you know, one of the things we were talking about is how much in our region, uh especially young adults, shift. Oh, yeah. Right, including our church, but young adults shift and they go from here to here. And I was chatting with Josie about that, and she was like, Well, yeah, but we moved to Hamilton. Like there's something about like just because I grew up here doesn't mean I always want to be here. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of that where we can give some freedom. Yep. I think what we do though is that we feel like we need to add a justification to it that isn't there. Right. No, I'm leaving because you know, or I'm choosing this church because I need a change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Or I'm choosing this church simply for the fact that I have a bunch of friends that are going there. 100% and that's why I'm going. Just say it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Like, but let's not make it more holy than it is. Let's not make it more spiritual.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

My thing then becomes and and this is something that we have to change over, you know, a couple generations. The motives that mature Christians. Are changing churches for have to be challenged in the context of is the spirit compelling you? Yeah. What is your motive? Right? Because there are bad situations people need to leave. And that doesn't even make the church necessarily bad. No. But maybe it's so let's not say we're we're not anti-switching church. Yep. What what my experience has been is going into a really, really difficult church, going through some difficult things. I'm so glad that I stayed. And God never said thou must stay. Right. But God said, love people, love me, and use your gifts. And I think one of the downsides of the consumer mentality that is so prevalent in the church is that the framework by which we choose and we leave does not involve at any point service. It does not involve at any point submission. It doesn't involve, and then it just creates a really, really hard framework for leaders to work by. Because then you end up being almost in a position where every Sunday people decide whether they stay or go. And that hasn't been our experience here. Like we it we we've had our in and outs, but like, but I do think that's one of those things that so as people are going, okay, well, should I stay? Okay, well, hey, if you're here, are you serving?

unknown 23:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

If you're here, are you all in? Like that that becomes the big question, right? And no, one of the questions as well when people um talk about this, you'll go, okay, well, how close are you with God right now?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Because I I know like if you're gonna make a massive decision in a time when you feel distant from God, that feels probably not wise. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

One of the things like what you're saying is I think is important is when you're at a church, you're not going to I hate saying it like this way, because I don't think it's ever taken properly, but you're not going to receive or you're not going to learn or you're not going to get, or whatever it is that the purpose and lesson and and the defining or refining that God wants to bring to your life is not going to happen unless you're willing to be all in. So it's just not going to take place. So the time that you're there, and I think maybe that's this is an age-related statement. You know, I'm I'm looking at a much limited, much more limited timeline than what I've ever had in my life. Um but the time that you're there is there for a reason. Right. And that's one of the things that I can look back at on my journey and I go, everywhere I've been and everywhere I've served and everywhere I've decided to be, I was supposed to be. Because there was something about that part of the journey that God needed me to go through. Right. I just did. Um I I needed to come to Mount Salem because I don't think I could have found healing. And I don't think I could have found him the way that I now know him in a different place. At least in a different place in this region where I was supposed to be. We'll say that. At the time it was here. Um and I think for people that are here, I would say, are you putting yourself in those places where God is able to do in you, do through you, do with you all the things that He's supposed to be doing. And if not, you'll have to go someplace else and have that happen. But like the maybe the reason why you're not feeling the connection to God is more of what you're holding on to rather than what you're allowing him to have. And I think that's an important distinction in a consumer culture. You know, we've we've talked about that one story that I heard on that that one podcast about the uh the uh the son, the grandson who was taking care of grandma. And you know, he was talking about his wedding vows. You know, that he was relating to marriage and he was talking about uh his grandmother called up and he said, she said, My my washing machine's broken. Um I I I I I need you to come and uh take care of it. And his first thought was is like he went to a appliance store, a massive appliance store, and went to go get her a new one because he knew the one that she had was ancient. And he got to the appliance store and he realized, oh shoot, what color was that? I want to make sure it matches with the dryer. You know, so he called her up and says, uh, Grandma, uh, what color is your washing machine? And she's like, brown. And he was like, brown. He looks across the store and everything is like white, silver, black, no brown. And like, he's like, When did you buy that thing? Oh, it was back in the 1970s or 1960s or something like that. And then grandma pipes up and says, Where are you at? And he says, I'm at so-and-so appliance store. And she says, Why are you there? I didn't ask you to give me a new one. There's nothing wrong with the one I have. It just needs someone to come and fix it. Right. And I think sometimes we're really good at having, but we're not good at holding. Yep. And I think that comes with churches too. We have a mentality of that, you know, I'm good with like getting it, right, but holding on to it. And I think in the context of what God and the Holy Spirit are supposed to be doing, a lot of times we're okay if we, you know, come and kneel, but we're not necessarily good with putting ourselves into his hand and allowing us to like have and hold, which means we're gonna let him do with us what he decides to do with us. And I think that goes with how to find a church. Like if you're gonna find a church, is this a place where you're willing to have, but also are you willing to let the church hold? Right. Where it's not just you having the church, but they get the hold. Like there's a there's a there's a duality there that needs to exist. And if it doesn't exist, it won't be healthy. Right. Because the working of what's supposed to happen won't take place. Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

But and I think it it kind of leading out of that, like talking the whole purpose of church was a gathering of Christians to be equipped for the call that God has for them. Right. Right. You go and you gather together to worship. There's not much that we do as a church together that you can't do on your own. So like when you start thinking about it, okay, so what is it the purpose of church? The purpose of church was to gather, to be encouraged, to be equipped. That's it. So then you go, okay, so if I'm going to attend a church, do I love the believers that I'm worshiping with? Or do I love the product that the believers that I'm worshiping with are giving to me? Man, it's such a good question. Again, in in our day and age, and it's hard because we put out a freaking good product. I'm very proud of the product we put out.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

And everybody that we listen to follow, like who would be quote unquote in a place of mentoring or whatever, says, make sure that you have a good product.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yep. So we do that. We do that. We we try to put out and we're working, I know there's some things we got to work on, but we put out a pretty good product. So then the question just becomes Am I here because I love my brothers and sisters? And that that really begins to go, okay, well, when I showed up to a church and I go all in, that does not mean I tithe. It doesn't mean even I serve. Am I here for the people that I'm sitting next to? And when I decide to leave, is it because the product that they're giving isn't good enough? Or is it because where God is leading me is different than where God is leading this church? Or like the and there always there are reasons to leave a church. Like, please don't mishear us. We just can't always live in the exceptions. Generally, if you're at a place, then you make the assumption that God has called me here unless God is calling me out. Right. And if God has called me here, my job is to love the people that I'm here with. And my assumption, based on what I understand from God, is that the local church is the mechanism by which he works in the world. Right. So somehow in Mount Salem, he works through Mount Salem Community Church and he works through what's their new name? They've announced it, I think, right? Summerfeld. I don't know if they have they publicly announced.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

I don't know if they publicly announce it.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

So we'll just say Somerfeld. Summerfeld. So he works through them. I don't know exactly. And there's across the road from us, there's a little church plant that meets. I think they're just a family or whatever. Like there's near our house, there's and there's there's these other things that somehow God in his his wisdom and his purpose has said, hey, I want to work through these guys. But I I think what we in our individualized culture, and I think this is where people just have to really question themselves. Am I here because I love the people that I'm serving with and that I get to do life with and that God has called me into mission together with? Or am I here because the worship lines up with what I like in terms of song and I like, you know, the preaching style? Because those things are important. And I also think, like, in going back to the honesty, like, I I love the fact that um people can be or should be a little bit more honest. Like, look, I don't really like how loud this church is. That's great. Yep. We just can't change the volume for everybody who walks through the doors. Right. I don't really like the way this is set up. There's nothing wrong with that. We've never said that the way we set it up is the way Jesus set it up. Yep. Right. So I think that individual piece, I think sometimes people just try to make it something and it's not. No, totally get it. That's awesome. Let's be honest with that. Yeah. Can we bless you as you go? Yep. Right. But I it's very hard to have a meaningful conversation about leaving the church when we can't understand why we're even at the church. Right.

unknown 31:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Because in terms, the the only thing that really needs to be dealt with when a person leaves the church is those relationships. But usually what ends up happening is those relationships get severed for some reason, sometimes by their doing, sometimes by others, sometimes just life, whatever that is. But those are only things that are of value. Yeah. Yeah, it hurts when somebody that is singing leaves the church, or when somebody is a donor that leaves the church. Sure, it does. But the things that you need to be aware of are the relationships. How do I navigate the relationships? Right. And so I think when you're choosing a church, I think we go back to the question of why am I choosing a church? Because I think that becomes some of the framework that we need to just be honest about. If I I've chosen to leave the other church, and again, this is not a right or a wrong, but as an individual, not everybody's called to adopt three kids. Not everybody's called to do in your own calling and in your own context, why are you leaving? Be clear on that. Do I feel like I have permission from God to leave? Yeah. What relationships do I need to make right? I think that's a good question. Right. And so in some of those, like when I look at our reconciliation service that we did, you know, whatever, you know, 10 years ago now or longer. Longer. It took people sometimes 20 years. So this isn't a matter of, okay, I want to leave in three weeks, so I got to get these things done. This is just a matter of a reality of okay, my goal as a follower of Jesus is the ministry of reconciliation. So I'm gonna leave this church, and here's my reasons, and I believe God has given me the okay, and I'm gonna go search for a new one, but I'm never gonna stop praying that I can make those relationships right. That is a hard thing to live. But that is the ministry of faith. That is that is what we're doing. So I think if you can do that, then from there, then you go, okay. Am I old enough to understand my giftings? Do I even know where I fed?

unknown 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Do you think there's some aspect of this as you were talking? Like um this is uh maybe a dumb analogy, but hey, it popped into my head anyway, so why not talk about it while we're here? So I've seen I've seen a few videos, reels, and uh there's a bunch of people who want to adopt animals, and they all go to the shelter. And what they do is they've all agreed that what they'll do is they'll sit down all around the shelter, and then they let one dog out at a time. And then the dog comes and chooses the person instead of the people choosing the dog. To what point do we need to also, when we walk into a place, be willing to let the church choose us? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I'm I'm saying I think the spirit in some cases, I don't wanna I don't wanna like again, like you're saying about spirituality, I don't think all these things are necessarily the same. No. But I believe there's moments where you have to be like, no, it chose me. And I don't know what part of the journey or for what it is for that reason. I know people make decisions all the time, and if it's not a decision like that, that's great. I think the spirit will work through those choices. If you have a submissive heart that's chasing after God, you will you will have the refining process take place in your life that needs to take place. Right. But I think there's times where people show up and the church will choose you. I think there's a perspective where we are looking. Yeah. But I think we need to also be like have the mindset that's like, wait a minute. Like if you know you're gifting, if you know, is the church saying, Hey, you're supposed to be here? You know, the body. You know, it is the, you know, we're the the scriptures do say, you know, he adds to the body, he adds to the church as it pleases him.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

That's the exact verse that came to my mind because I was like, because often what ends up happening is you go to a church and you're like, ah, they don't have this ministry that I really like. And then so then maybe you need to ask the question, is that why I'm here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Did God intentionally send me to this place because I'm supposed to do that. I'm that part of the body that was missing. Right. And God's looking to reattach the hand to the arm, or he's looking to make the body more into the image of his son by having you.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

And the larger a church gets, the harder it is to really have that type of mentality. But that's what you really want. Like God has called me here. Whereas the bigger the church gets, the more you can just be like, I get to enjoy this. Right. Which is good, you should. You should enjoy the church you go to. Like again, not saying that at all. But we are on mission. We are not just attending. If you were a follower of Jesus, you are on mission. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

If there's one place your intentionality should be at its highest, it's operating within the body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Well, and I and I think that so one of the things that the way we try to live this out is we want to build up the local church. Yeah. Do I ever want anyone to leave our church? No. No, no, no. It hurts. It sucks. I remember uh a family came to our church probably two years in, and uh I was like, yeah, like they had a gifting that we needed. When they left, oh, it hurt. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this sucks. But now it's like, no, like I I I won't always be able to judge why people come or go. Nope. Nobody's asking that, right? The question just for us is okay, as we're doing this, how do we build up the broader body of the church? Yeah. So one of the things that I loved about um Jonathan uh Smith, who's become friend but also our mentor, he talks about the reallocation or redeployment.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah, redeployment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

And he says, So when people leave their church and they decide, you know, and in sometimes it's bad situations that you try to make right and you just can't. Sometimes just people just didn't like the church or they didn't feel connected, whatever. Yep. And he says, So one of the things that he tries really hard to do is he'll call the pastor and go, Hey, you got some good guys coming your way. Yep. This is who they are, this is kind of where they're gifted at. Um, you know, just lucky to have them. And I'm like, what an incredible perspective. But we've tried to build that with the local ministerial, you know, with the pastors that we have prayer meetings with, like the recognition that we don't get to control the people in our church. All we do is my job is to be faithful. And this goes back to the previous podcast. Like, my job is to be faithful where God has called me, where I feel the spirit has compelled me. I don't get to control everybody else. So we're going to produce a product here. We're going to produce what we believe God has called us to, and we are unique, but so is every other church. Yeah. So where when you choose a church, because then I there's a lot of rhetoric with it. I'm not a Bible-believing church. I, you know what? I I I want to go where God wants me to be. And then from there, yes. If they're saying the Bible is not scripture, sure. Definitely question some things. Yeah. But where are you finding that?

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Dynome. In our region. Like, let's be honest. The only thing that you're finding is some minuscule reason for you to believe that there's some hidden agenda within. Yep. Like 99.9% of all churches in our region that are based on scripture believe salvation is through Jesus Christ. Yep. It's it's in his name alone. Yep. Um, and that you're supposed to love God and love your neighbor. Like in those three things, there's not much more that you need to battle over. Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

You know, and then from there it's it's a matter of figuring out like where where does one fit? Where does one find life and joy and hope? And but that becomes again going back to like, so when when when you're choosing, are you abiding in Christ? Are you abiding in the spirit? Is your motive actually to God, where do you want me? And then from there, trusting.

unknown 39:28

Right?

SPEAKER_00 39:29

And I think it does it isn't very complicated, but I think honesty, I think self-reflection, and then a submitted heart to God. And if you can get those things, nailed it. I think fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I I I would like to throw it there as well. If you're contemplating like leaving and you can't have a conversation with leadership, like that should happen. There should be some dialogue that says, hey, I just want you to know I've loved it, you know, but I'm searching. I'm searching, I'm not sure where my feet are gonna land. Right. Great. How can we help? How can we help your feet to land? Right. Right? Like at the end of the day, we want more people that are actively serving in healthy churches. It doesn't have to be ours. But how can we help you? Like it'd be fantastic if we could help set you up in a place that needs who you are in that place. Perfect. That's great. And I think it's also a healthy thing to say, hey, I did have a conversation. They're praying with me. Perfect. You you want more people praying with you about that? Because I mean it is an important life decision. Like it does matter.

unknown 40:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

And then I think just embracing your own journey. Yeah. I mean, we've gone through some hard seasons. My family has, your family has. Everybody's going through those. And there are times where people need to leave, and there's times where people need to come. And both of those, let's let's honor that. It's okay. That's okay. But the goal of today's podcast wasn't to go with the extremes, it's to go kind of like, okay, so I feel like I need to either find a new church or I'm not sure whether I should stay. Or I think there's some really basic stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Um, and a lot of it comes down to just asking myself some honest questions. Okay, let's forget the spiritual language here. Unless God spoke to you, which is very rare in this regard. I certainly don't have it. God never said thou must be in Mount Salem. So let's take that out of it and then go, okay, what is it that I'm actually feeling? Why am I even contemplating this? What is happening in my life? Who am I letting into this conversation? And then how do we have that honestly? And I think from there, then you then you do the best you can. Like I mean, we we talk about this all the time. You go open-handed. So we go to another church and all of a sudden you realize, no, I should have been there. That was my bad. Then go back. Yeah. This isn't this isn't a complicated thing. This is this is just I want to follow Jesus. And I'll say yes to Jesus. And so hoping this was somewhat helpful. I um I think there's always those unique circumstances that we always we always worry about stepping onto those. No, there's some really hard reasons, and people needed to leave that church. And there are churches that are not good. Yep. They do exist. Yeah. Um, but we're gonna talk more in the generic of there's a lot of great ones in our region. There's a lot of good people. Lots of good people, they're all unique, they're all different, um, but all have a purpose and a mission. And so be praying for your local churches, be praying for um the community of faith here and see see where see where God takes everything.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

A lot of people searching and hoping that they can find a home.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yep. Hey, have a great rest of the day.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Yeah, you too. We'll talk soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

See you guys.