5: When 2+2 = 5

In this episode, we dive deep into the challenge of identifying the root causes of herd health performance issues. Among a complex web of factors impacting herd performance—including genetics, management practices, environmental conditions, nutrition balancing, and more —it's all too easy to overlook the presence of toxins until things don’t add up.

Tune in as we uncover the importance of early toxin elimination in simplifying the diagnostic process and expediting solutions. Premier Select Sires Product Manager, Jeff Hostetter will share actionable strategies for defending and safeguarding animals when toxins are a part of the equation, ensuring they're treated with the value they deserve.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello everyone, welcome to Ruminate This with a Graved Solutions. Join us as we explore ruminant nutrition and the impact of mycotoxins. Here we challenge your curiosity and explore new industry insights and research to optimize your herd's health and performance. All right, welcome everybody to ruminate this with a grand solutions. I'm your host, Scott Zayer, and today I am joined by a close friend of mine, Jeff. You're somebody I consider a close friend at this point in our lives, Jeff Hostetter. He works for Premier Select Sires and resides down in southern Lancaster County. I'll let him tell a little bit more about himself. But today, Jeff, we're going to dive into a conversation that you and I think have a lot in a lot of different ways. This idea that two plus two equals five. And we know that's not right, but how do we get it to go back to four? And so, you know, today's conversation is going to bounce around some ideas of, you know, when we think about what's going on on the farm. I'm probably going to talk specifically a lot of this conversation about dairy, but it's applicable to really all beef operations as well. There's things that sometimes go on that we just can't put our finger on. You know, maybe it's nutritionally we can't put our finger on it, or performance-based metrics like milk production, reproduction. Maybe it's calf scours, maybe it's who knows what. And there's like a whole litany of things, Jeff, that can go on in the dairy, right? So you and I both get to travel around different states, see different operations, beef operations, dairy operations. And we get asked a lot of these questions of what the heck is going on. And so, Jeff, before we dive into that, just quickly, you know, who are you? Where are you from? And what's your role at Premier Select Sires? All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Thank you, Scott. Like you said, my name is Jeb Hostetter. I had kind of a unique uh experience within the dairy and beef cattle industry. I started out working as a nutritionist for about five years and then moved into the genetics world. And I've been with Select Sires, Premier Select Sires for about uh 17 years now. And I feel like I've got kind of a unique perspective because I've seen that nutrition puzzle that we're all trying to put together to maximize the genetics. And now I'm on the genetics side, and I can, you know, we can deliver great genetics to our customers. And like you said, sometimes two plus two doesn't equal four. And so it kind of fascinates me that whole troubleshooting, maximizing that genetic potential puzzle. And uh so you and I, like you said, we've been a great we've been great friends. We bounce ideas off each other, troubleshoot together. So it's it'll be fun to share some of those experiences today.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Jeff, you have an interesting take on genetic potential. You want to share that analogy? Because I think that's a neat way to look at genetic potential.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, but thanks, Scott. I think many times through the years we've heard the term like bottlenecks. What are we always trying to figure out what is the most limiting factor, what's the bottleneck on the dairy or beef farm. And I've taken kind of and switched that around, and I like to look at the day that that can is conceived in the cow, in the dam, what are we starting with? That's our starting point. That is our bag of 100 gold points that we started with.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

That's our genetic starting point, right? That's our genetic starting point.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

You know, then the the value of that genetic can't, the days conceived, is at its highest point. And as it goes through gestation, as it's born, and then as it's raised up into the milking herd, things can happen that can lower that genetic potential. So I look at those as there are holes in that that bag of gold coins, that 100 gold coins, the gold coins can leak out if we have too much heat stress during the dry period. Well, that can't be still in your utero. We're probably let's just, for example, we're only gonna have that camp born with 95 gold coins, and those gold coins represent that gross revenue that can come back to the producer. So, what can we do from a management from an environmental Cal Comfort mycotoxins? What can we do to minimize the holes in that bag of gold coins? What can we do if there is a hole, repair that hole? So that that's kind of my how I envision it in my mind and how I attack, you know, reach helping people reach the genetic potential that they've invested in that next generation.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I love that. I love that because it's so it's so visual, right? You can you can kind of see it, and I I think on some level, you know, whether you're a dairy or beef farmer out there that's purchasing frozen semen from a stud, or you're purchasing, you know, bulls for cover, you do that on some level because you believe in genetics, you believe in enhancing that next generation of livestock. It's so easy to have just something happen, right? Unforeseen things, weather events. I mean, I when I think of weather events, I'm programmed because I spend my time in dairy predominantly to think of heat stress or cold stress, but you know, flooding, you know, stuff like that. We've seen in the beef world heat waves coming through, knocking out a bunch of cattle, wildfires, flooding. There's things like that we can't control, right? Um, and I I think more today I want to focus on the things we can control. And so let's go through that list, you know, because you and I get asked to go out on farms with with different folks, uh, and sometimes we go together. And I'm a big believer on the fundamentals. You've heard me preach fundamentals, and and one of the reasons I keep actually it's on that side, I keep Vince Lombardi behind me is as a reminder. So Lombardi has a great quote. Basically, I'm gonna paraphrase a little bit. If you don't master the fundamentals, you don't have crap. So, Jeff, talk to us about that because there's a lot of things that can kind of fall into that fundamentals category. But like, what does that starting process look like when two plus two equals five?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I'd feel like there are certain foundational uh fundamentals that that need to be right. And a lot of farms are great at those fundamentals. You know, comfortable cows, good feeding management practices, things like pushing up feed, heat abatement is a big one. We're learning more and more about the effects of heat abatement on inflammation and genetic programming insects. That that's a big one. That to me, that's a fundamental. But you know, over the last couple of years, I've been thinking more and more should mycotoxin protection be considered a fundamental aspect that we should take care of. That we should just take it off the table. It's not something that's gonna put a hole in the bag or make the other holes bigger. It's something that we can just take it out of the equation and focus on other aspects that might not be as easily fixed.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

So I I have a theory when we get into these kind of talks, and I I call it my 99 problems theory. And you know, to your point, there's certain things we can control and they they can be devastating at the very maximum and they can be frustrating at the minimum. Um I've been blessed to be on a number of different farms throughout a number of states in this great country. And oftentimes it's trying to figure out what the problem is. And so often, Jeff, when we when we we get in these situations, the the problem is supposed to be like way up here, right? Right. And then it's oftentimes a lot further down the list towards that fundamental kind of thing. But the 99 problem theory I kind of think about and come up with is when a farmer wakes up in the morning, dairy or beef, I I look at it like there's 99 problems or 99 things that could be causing an issue on their operation today. And the more of those problems that we can get under control, the less stressful it is. So then, right, we can allocate our time and resources elsewhere. But when we get into this diagnostics conversation, you know, it it's how many times does it feel like as uh, you know, Jeff, when you were a nutritionist, it's like we're throwing darts at the wall blindfolded, hoping we pop the balloon. And then something does change, right? And maybe it gets better, and we don't even know why. And then so then we rationalize it away. Well, we started into some better halage or we got into some better corn silage, and it might be true, it might be marginally true. It's an interesting take on the mycotoxins because one of the most frustrating things, Jeff, that I've learned about mycotoxins over the years is the only thing consistent about mycotoxins is their inconsistency. They're not distributed evenly in the field, they're not distributed evenly in the storage pile, they're probably not even distributed evenly in the feed bunk. You know, so kind of part of this conversation what spurred me to bring you on and visit about this is I I want to ask you a question back to your, well, just repro days, nutrition days, doesn't matter. How many times have you been in a situation where it's like we have exhausted all other options? We have no idea what's going on. And then somebody says, Well, did you check for toxins? And sometimes that question gets asked within the first two, three days of diagnosing what's going on. Sometimes it's months.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

That's right. That's right. And you know, when I worked in nutrition 17 years ago, we didn't know a lot about toxins, mycotoxins at that time. And uh some peak times in the last year or two, I can think of specific herds where I had this amazing ration on paper. You know, we had we even did we out of the amino acid balance, we had, you know, our energy fractions, our fat starch, digestibility, had all those pieces of the nutrition puzzle on paper. And I thought to myself, they must not be mixing this ration, right? You know, the feeder must be screwing us up. And you know, you'd talk to the feeder, you'd you'd go out, you'd watch them mix feet, you'd even, you know, you'd do TMR samples, and you just there must be something wrong with the water. There must be a disease. And sometimes I wish I could go back and say, we should have checked for toxins, we should have tested the feeds. You know, we had binders available. We've now learned a lot more that you know, there's better ways. Yeah, there is there's better technology. And it's it's kind of funny to to just think back and and uh wish you had some of the tools available back then that you have now. So I you know it is, I think one of the biggest frustrations of a nutritionist is that rational paper does not equal production and the the reproduction and the health that is being exhibited in the in the herd. And like you said, the 99 problem theory, you can take one of those bottles of problems off the table, off the wall, and do it easily and know that it is taken care of. Man, that is that is so reassuring from a nutritional standpoint.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

You bring that up, and I you know, you're going back to thinking about stuff from 20 years ago, and throughout my career, I can look back on some situations and kind of see something similar, but I'm gonna share something more recently because you you hit on something when you talked about they're not mixing it right. Okay. So this farm I visited recently, and I'm gonna say within the last few months, not to be too specific, but the conversation I had leading into it before I ever made it on the farm with the herd owner was I'm to the point now where I'm starting to question my employees and their dedication to my farm. And these are employees that have been with me a long time and I know they do a great job. But like you said, on paper, everything is pointing to the direction that they should be making X pounds of milk. They should be, you know, running 45-50% conception rate. And but it's like, I think back to all these these times when I did repro analysis for Premier, how many conversations I had, and it was like, well, are you sure you're giving every shot? Are you using an inch and a half needle? And I don't want to degrade the importance of the fundamentals. Lombardi's sitting behind me, right? But this concept of being able to move mycotoxin mitigation over to the fundamental side and take it off the table, turn that into that employee that you never have to check in on, you never have to check up on. They just always do their job. To me, I think that's why we've seen people over the years rely on DTX. And because it it's there, it's working. Like you said, binders have their limitations. And I'm gonna tell you, I'm not necessarily anti-binder. I just think they have their role in certain conditions. Aflatoxin. I'll be the first one to tell you if you're in the south and you're dealing with aflatoxin, hey, you know, you better be putting in a binder, a clay binder to help with that problem. And not that we don't help with that, but it's they're very effective in that scenario. But yeah, so I want to jump back into the on-farm portion of it, Jeff, because what does it look like when we walk onto a farm now and we know mycotoxins aren't part of the discussion? Like, where do we start then? Well, we we we have DTX in the herd. We know that it's mycotoxins are being taken care of. Now, what's the stuff we can go focus on?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

That is a great way to look at it, Scott, because once that's taken off the table, you can do things like a genetic audit. You know, what is what is our current genetic value? Are we making progress? We can put compare quartiles within the herd. You can do things like genomic testing and develop a genetic plan moving forward. You can look at things like beef on dairy, maximize the value of those black calves. The fundamentals of good forage quality, good cow comfort, good cow handling, those are never gonna become less important. We don't want to talk about mycotoxins and act like those things like we can't solve mycotoxins and then everything else just takes care of itself. You know, those are always gonna be timeless fundamentals. You know, we've got to take care of these girls so they can take care of us. But so you know, I I look at genetics, I look at forage quality, I look at cow comfort, I think those are probably the three pillars of of fundamentals. Once I have that peace of mind that the mycotoxins are taken care of. That's kind of how I break it down. And it takes uh a lot of experience, it takes a lot of awareness. It just yeah, it's not an easy thing or everyone would be doing it, right? There's there's people that are really understand that are feeding cows because like we said before, you got a piece of paper, um there's probably a lot of people that could go on a computer and input the nutrient values of all the feedstuffs, the forages, and spit out a nice ration, but it's really that eyes wide open on the farm. You know, are the cows comfortable? Is the forage quality good? Is the water good? Those are those are some of the the main fundamentals I like to look at.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

The science of feeding a cow versus the art of feeding a cow, and you can't teach the art. I'm not a cow whisperer, Jeff. I wish I were. But I love talking to cows and hearing what they have to say because they just don't lie. The only time we think cows lie is when we're not hearing what they're saying.

unknown 18:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

We've got to learn to speak their language. Yeah, exactly. Listen to their language. Yeah. You know, you reminded me of something. I I have a lot of theories, Jeff. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but I have a theory that I call my dirty fan theory. You've heard me talk about this before. You're laughing at me. I think most of the time you think I'm crazy. My dirty fan theory, and again, I'm gonna go back to the fundamentals because I I can't tell you how important the fundamentals are, and it's so easy to overlook them. They're the first thing that are succumbed to protocol drift. Fundamentals, guys and girls listening. But when I get invited to a dairy, I like to walk through the barns and observe what's going on, try to go out and see what the cows are telling me. How do they look? How's their hydration? How is their manure look? What's their locomotion score, body condition? But oftentimes it's like, you know, you've never been here before, you don't know who the folks are that are on the farm, you don't have relationships with them yet. So you're trying to get a feel for their management style, you know, are they lax on their fundamentals or not? Because it's really hard to try to provide advice from a 10,000-foot view if you have to question the fundamentals. And so the dirty fan theory. When I walk into a freestall, one of the very first things I look at is the amount of dust that is built up on the fans above the cows. It's been my experience over the last now almost 11 years of my professional career that if a farm routinely cleans their fans, especially during the cool season, like it's one thing to make sure the fans are clean during the summertime when you really, really need 'em. But it's another level of attention to detail and the fundamentals that matter when it's I'm gonna say February, March, and we may or may not need those fans, but they're clean and ready to go if we do. If those fans are dirty all the time, and especially if they're dirty in the summertime, one, right? That that dust can reduce airflow by up to 40%. Two, what else are they not doing, Jeff? It's an indicator. How are the water troughs, Jeff? Yeah, yeah. How's the stall care? How's the headlock care? The put enough sand in the beds. Yeah, it's an indicator for sure. So that's my dirty fan theory. It's worked the other way to where it reinforces you know, if if the fans are clean, especially in like February, March, it reinforces to me that I probably don't need to spend a lot of time talking about beds and stall maintenance and that kind of stuff. They're doing the job. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

That's my soapbox story for today's podcast. The dirty fan theory, that's really interesting, Scott, because you can almost like compare that to mycotoxins and they're are we walking onto a farm that has that understands the negative effects that mycotoxins can have? And did they clean those fans? Did they clean those fan blades? Are they using good technology like DTX to take that off the table? It's probably an indicator that they're doing a lot of the fundamentals right. And I think that it's something that as the years go on, more and more of our well managed herds, not only are they aware, but they know how to fix it. They understand that. Even if, like you mentioned earlier, cows don't lie, they always tell the truth. There's probably a little bit of a caveat to that because when I look at the our DTX research, we looked at those cows in the control group, and we probably could have walked onto that farm, looked at the control group, which we didn't know which was the control group or not, we would have said, these cows are saying life is good. They were milking well under 15 pounds. But you know, a clean fan theory would say, well, that herd took care of the of mycotoxins. And we saw from the research two and a half more pounds of milk when we cleaned those fan blades. In other words, when we took care of mycotoxin with our DTX technology. So I think that, yeah, I just think as we learn more and more about these cows, I think that bag of gold coins has more coins in it than it's ever had before, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Oh, the genetic potential is crazy nowadays.

unknown 23:09

Right?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

90, 100 pounds of male, four or five bat, three, three, like eight pounds of of components per cal per day is it's not far away. It's it's really close. I it's not far away.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, it's like yesterday we were at six.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

You know, and today we're at I was on a dairy this week, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5. Yep, it's it's not far away, Jeff. But I you know, I I I I think you're right. It's the peace of mind, right? When you master the fundamentals, and and this is what excites me about what we at agrarian do and believe in and talk about with our cell wall deficient bacteria, our L forms, DTX. We're now making it an option for livestock owners across the globe to handle mycotoxin mitigation just like they would having a protocol in place to keep the fans clean. And it can be a fundamental, it can be one of those things we can control and have peace of mind about. And so I think if you're a herd manager, herd owner, cattle rancher, nutritionist, veterinary, listening to this, that's gotta mean something. You know, for me as somebody that gets to walk on farms and and be a quasi-consultant, it means an awful lot. When I have that peace of mind and it it tells me where I don't have to look. And that's really that's really the best way to describe how I feel about that 99 problem theory is number one, where do I not have to look? Because if I can reduce that down to maybe five problems instead of 99 with a snap of a finger, we can get results a lot faster. So I love it. Jeff, I hope to bring you in on another podcast call. We'll figure out something to talk about, but I really appreciate you taking the time today. And just as an homage to you, Jeff, I did want to point out to you that is the Select Sires Impact Sires of the Breed canvas behind me. Thank you, Scott.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Uh it means a lot to see those impact sires from Select Sires and appreciate you having me on the podcast. I love chopping it up with you, Scott, and we just happened to record it today, but it's uh a lot like uh a lot of our conversations through the last few years. Looking forward to doing it again sometime.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Absolutely. All right, thanks everybody, and we will see everybody soon. Thank you for listening to Ruminate This with Agrarian Solutions. Look for our next episode in two weeks.