78: Rethinking Transition Cow Health

When dairy producers think about improving profitability, they often focus on the cow.

But what if the biggest opportunity starts much earlier?

We're excited to share this episode of The Dairy Podcast Show, where host Dr. Barry Bradford sits down with John Lawlor, dairy industry consultant, to discuss why forage quality, feed management, and system-wide thinking have a greater impact on profitability than many producers realize.

From harvest decisions to feed efficiency and long-term herd performance, this conversation explores how seemingly small management choices can influence milk production, feed costs, and overall business success.

In this episode:

•  Why profitability begins before feed reaches the ration 
•  How forage quality drives feed efficiency 
•  The hidden costs of poor feed management 
•  Why system thinking improves dairy performance 
•  The importance of measuring what matters 
•  Common management decisions that quietly reduce profitability 
•  Building a more resilient dairy operation 
•  Practical ways to improve long-term return

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, welcome back to the Dairy Podcast Show brought to you by Wisenetics. My name is Barry Bradford from Michigan State University. Today I'm happy to welcome to the show John Lawler. John is the managing director of Anchor Life Sciences Limited. John, thanks a lot for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Thanks, Barry. It's an absolute pleasure to be chatting to you today. We've done a lot of research in the past, and one of the big areas that kickstarted all was a lot of your research back in the day, looking at the role of inflammation and what it does, and starting to think a little bit differently about transition cows and performance and to see well, you know, is it all about calcium? Is there something else at play? And that really started the kind of ball rolling. And I think we've learned an awful lot more in terms of uh transition cows, maybe in the last five or ten years than we have for a long, long time before it. And there's a lot more data, research being done in this whole area. So another five years, ten years, we'll we'll know a huge amount more.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah, that's exciting. Thank you. Um, let's start a little bit with um where you're from, how you got to where you're at. It doesn't sound like you're from Pennsylvania necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Tell us about how you got to this space.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

This is a very strong Irish accent. So I um I grew up on a far a dairy farm just north of Dublin in Ireland. Uh my local hometown is actually the hometown of Pierce Brosnan, who used to be James Bond back in the day. So we have a bit of a link. Um so at home we milk about 350 cows on what we would call a liquid milk system. So uh autumn calving and spring calving, and trying to produce as much grass as possible from forage and particularly grass, if we can. Um and I suppose I went from the farming into business. So I started, I spent five years with Altec, the uh nutritional supplement company, and then started with a company called Celtic Sea Minerals, and they harvest uh a special type of seaweed called lithitamine calcarium up in Iceland. And that business has a human health part of the business, it has an animal health part of the business, which is Celtic Sea Minerals, and now we have Anchor Life Science, which is uh an animal uh veterinary product division. Uh and between all of those, we have about 130 peer-reviewed published papers on the role of that seaweed, so it's very well studied, understood, and can do an awful lot really fantastic things. Uh when I saw some of the data of the beneficial role in terms of animal and human health, that's where I suppose anchor kind of sprung from. How could we apply this type of seaweed into a range of animal health products? And that's really where I suppose that the product we have today, cowsarchopetis, really kind of come from.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Very cool. Uh let maybe we could take a minute minute and help us understand, like it, I at least to people in the US, I think if you're like, oh, I'm going to feed seaweed, maybe people think of methane reduction or something, but like help us understand is it is it like dried and ground and what's what's the logic of using a seaweed for cows?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, so there's three species of seaweed. There's brown seaweed and green seaweed. And when we most people think of seaweed, they think of the stuff that washes up on the beach, and that generally is the brown seaweed and the green seaweed, very much a kind of a foragey kind of a plant. And if we think about it, it's a bit like uh I compare it to making silage. You know, you let the grass grow, you cut it, you take it away, and then it grows again, you cut it, take it away. That's the brown seaweed and the brown seed at that kind of a life cycle.

unknown 3:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Our seaweed, lithotamine calcarium, is a red species, and it has a very different life cycle. So it grows down to a depth of 15 meters because it needs sunlight for photosynthesis, and it grows really, really slowly. And what it does is over a long time it absorbs 74 different minerals from the seawater and it embeds them in a very unique plant matrix. And then over time, as it matures, it gets carried away on the current to a um uh an area of dead material. So we only harvest where the dead material is, we never go near the live plants, we leave them to keep producing and growing, and we just harvest over the dead material. So, as a comparison, I would uh say that the red seaweed is more like an apple orchard. You have the trees, they grow a crop of apples, they fall down. We take those apples away, but we leave the trees to keep growing apples every year.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, I like that. Okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah. So as a product, it's very it's purely a mineral product. Like I said, there's 74 different minerals, but what makes it unique is that because our plant uh structure, they're very bioavailable in the human and in the cow. Very different. So say if you say main calcium source might be limestone, a rock source, it's not nearly as bioavailable, whereas the calcium and our product is completely bioavailable.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Kind of like what we talk about with like milk complex calcium versus a supplement, like for humans, same idea. Yeah, that's cool. Exactly. Okay, well, I know your uh anchor is focused on um transition cows. So maybe we could start off with you you work across different systems, um, you know, kind of work with people around the world. What do you see kind of as big trends in terms of managing transition cows? Are we making progress on reducing disease incidence and that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, I think it's fascinating. In the last month I've been to South Africa, I've been to Holland, Ireland as well. Uh, we do a lot in New Zealand as well. And I think it really depends on the region you're in. Some countries are at the cutting edge, like America, in terms of using negative DCAD diets as much as possible and then supplementing cows at the point of calving to try and improve performance. And other countries are really far behind where really what they're trying to tackle is clinical milk fever. Okay. They're just dealing with the cow that's gone down, they get her up, they get her going, and they think that that's what they can do to solve it. But the one trend that really is growing everywhere is the use of oral calcium supplements, the ability to pick and choose higher-risk cows and uh target a kind of a treatment uh program on them to try and reduce the risk of those issues, and that is growing very strongly. The US being probably a more mature market, but certainly in Ireland we're probably five or six years behind the US. Other markets could be five or six years behind us. But the one thing that's really clicking into gear comprehensively everywhere is the picking and choosing of cows and the supplementing to try and reduce the risk because there's no bigger problem or pain in the backside than a cow that goes down and then try to treat her and lift her and get her going. And there's a good chance she'll end up never really coming to anything anyway. So it's just something to be avoided at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, yeah, good point. And uh maybe a lot of our listeners, I mean, we have listeners from all different systems, but maybe you could help us understand a little bit better what are the biggest pain points uh for pasture-based systems versus TMR-based systems. Do they differ very much or not really?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah, I suppose very different and very the same at the at the same time. So pasture-based systems, particularly if cows are out on grass during the dry cut period, it's a complete recipe for milk fever. Yeah, it is, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. We see that in South Africa, we see it in New Zealand, or we see it in Ireland. Um our biggest challenge, I would say, on the European side is we have a strict ban on the spreading of slurry during the winter. Yeah. So generally, what happens is you make your first cut side, it's a really good stuff that goes to your milking cows, your highest yielding, and then you put as much slurry out as you can on the second cut and the third cut, and it's loaded with potassium. And you can't, you know, you're just restricted. Uh, and on every grazing system, it just plays havoc. So, certainly in Ireland, UK, lots of countries, the main cause of milk fever is not calcium, it's potassium. Absolutely too much potassium, locks up your magnesium, you can't get the calcium going when you need to. So, that's the biggest challenge. I think in other systems like in North America, you know, the foraged diet you have could be quite high in calcium. So you could be dealing in uh you know a 0.8, 0.85% calcium in the background. In Ireland it's probably 0.6, maybe 0.55. So you have to tackle calcium and also uh potassium levels in the diet, whereas us uh it's very much the potassium and managing grazing. After that, where the where the factors are different, the challenges are still the same when cows are calving in and the amount of time it takes uh to try and avoid the issue and the cost of that issue are the same. No matter what part of the world you're in, it costs exactly the same when that cow goes down. And obviously, the subclinical cow is the biggest cost of all. It's 80% of all of the costs of milk fever is the subclinical cow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah. Okay, uh help us then. You you made a point that I'm not sure I would I would have seen from my vantage point that you said, you know, we we see increasing adoption of oral calcium uh boluses at uh calving or shortly post-cabbing. Um what's your read on I guess the research literature on that lately? What's the takeaway points?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Really interesting. There was a paper, I don't know if you're aware of from my it was published a couple of years ago, and they did a meta-analysis of 22 peer-reviewed published papers on the use of oral calcium products and essentially what they were doing and what they weren't doing. And I think the traditional thinking is if we can keep that cow on our feet on the day after calving, we've done everything we can do, and she'll have a great lactation going forward, it'll be very productive and reproductive. And this paper really said actually the data doesn't support that viewpoint. So, what it did find is in the day after calving, in terms of clinical milk fever cases and retained percent, the use of oral calcium products did reduce the risk of those two diseases. But when you go to four days in milk looking at subclinical milk fever, no effect. When you go to three weeks looking at uterine infections, uh, displaced abmesum and ketosis, no effect. When you go to 100 days, you look at energy status in terms of body condition scoring, you look at milk production and you look at fertility, no effect. So I think it does a certain amount, but it may not just do everything we think it's going to do.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Interesting. And how do you think that intersects with the concepts of the transient hypocalcemia and persistent? Are you familiar with uh those ideas? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yes, yes. We use a good bit a lot of research uh from Jesse McCartney Cornell in the development of our product. Um it's interesting. Some of our data would support it, and some of our data would say when we get the calcium levels quite high in those cows in those first four days, they produce more milk than any other group of cows, the ones that go down and back up or the ones that go down completely. So I think we need more data, more data points to see exactly. Uh and I think if you look at the latest research from Cornell, you know, where they looked, the initial paper was looking at the transient cows and the uh delayed cows and the four different groups. Uh, and then they looked at the calcium level as being the kind of driver, you know, if calcium was low on day one, but okay on day four, well then that was perfectly fine. And I know they've reviewed and actually looked in terms of the inflammation markers of all of those cows to see what was happening. And they've also seen a link, yeah, certainly in one of those groups that it was inflammation that was also a key factor in that. So I think this whole area, like I said, where you started all those years ago, looking at inflammation has a much bigger role to play. And our data would support that in terms of what we've seen. We certainly see that there's more than calcium at play here. Yeah. If we want to get the best performance out of transition cows, we need to look beyond just putting calcium into those cows. Because, like that, that review of 22 papers, the effect is actually reasonably limited, and up to day one, there's an effect. But when we want to get a successful transition cow period, we're not just thinking about day one, we're thinking about the full lactation, we're thinking about production, we're thinking about fertility, yeah, fewer issues, fewer vet calls. That's successful transition cow management. And if we want to achieve that, and certainly our data would support, we need to think about more than just calcium in these cows.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Okay, that makes sense. Uh so yeah, like you said, that's like one of the biggest headaches for a farm is down cows with milk fever. No, yeah, nobody likes that. It's a headache that you feel horrible for the cow. But um, let's say, you know, we we have strategies, they're hard to implement in some systems, but we have strategies that are pretty good at reducing that, right? But we just still don't have great performance from all of our cows. So you said we got to look beyond calcium. So what do you what do you think about then? What's the next things you're looking at?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, so I suppose when we were looking to develop the product first, we kind of had the philosophy, well, you know, cows have three problems at calving. Calcium is only one of them, but immune function and energy status are two of them, massively challenges that those cows face. So I suppose our logic was well, if we can tackle those three issues together, if we can reduce the level of issues in those first two weeks after calving, can we then go and see better performance in terms of wood production and fertility? So in our product, we have our seaweed in there. So it is very, very high levels of completely bioavailable calcium magnesium, as well as 72 other minerals in there. We have um, and again, like I said, potassium is a huge challenge in a lot of areas. Having that extra magnesium in there is a huge benefit that's not usually available in most oral calcium products. We also have some vitamin D3 in there, but we have to remember that our seaweed uh is proven in humans and in cattle to have a very strong, natural and potent anti-inflammatory effect. So we have the ideal ingredient in terms of we have something with a lot of calcium magnesium in it, but it also acts as a very potent anti-inflammatory. And if you look at the latest work from Lance Baumgart, where he's saying, well, actually, inflammation is the first thing that happens, and then the drop in blood calcium levels is a consequence of the inflammation. We used to think, I used to this slide of this gateway disease idea, you have this gateway, calcium drops, and then all the problems happen afterwards. Whereas Lance is kind of saying, well, actually, inflammation happens first. One of the side effects of that is the calcium dropping, but you have all the other issues in terms of energy status production and all that. But the calcium dropping is a side effect of it. It's not the main event that starts everything that we used to think it was. And I think again, our data would would show that when we have our uh our product in there with that anti-inflammatory effect, and when we compare two products that just put calcium in there, we get a very different range of uh performance across the lactation.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

That's interesting. Maybe you don't know, but I'm curious like um the the way you're talking about this, it's like a plant complex um set of many minerals. So I'm sitting here thinking, okay, you you see anti-inflammatory effects in multiple species. Do you have any idea what might drive that response with this product?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, um we've done a nice bit of research. And so in cows, we've seen uh in terms of uh in induced acidosis, induced heat stress, and in transition cows, a lowering of those markers of inflammation. Okay. We're also just seeing in a more detailed research. Um, you know, when there is an inflammation response, when that cow has an infection, it's an inflammatory response. We do want the cow to have some level of inflammation because that is the natural response, it's a natural thing. So we generally have a kind of a 12-hour quick response, and then you have a chronic response, which is from 12 hours afterwards. So what we've seen with our seaweed is it does not affect the natural first response of the body. But after that, the chronic response, it has a very potent role to reduce the level of that ongoing inflammation, which is the thing when we start rolling into one week, into two weeks, into three weeks. If if you have that inflammation going, it's holding back the performance of those cows. So it's good because if we had uh something that knocked inflammation right off the bat, that would be not an optimal scenario for the cow because you're just switching off her own natural ability to tackle an infection. So we know that we can have uh leave the cow to do her natural thing to get that thing under control, and then we help from that 12-hour point afterwards to try and reduce the uh the challenge on those cows. And we look at body temperatures. Interestingly, we can see that we see an increase in the first 12, 18 hours after calving as that natural response kicks in, but that from that point all the way to two weeks after calving, that the cows getting our product have lower body temperatures compared to the control groups. So there is there's definitely an effect there that is happening, and we know that if you get a high rise in body temperature, it A is a huge challenge for the cow, but it also takes a lot of energy for the immune system to fight that high level of inflammation, the high level of uh uh temperature. And at the time when every ounce of dry matter is really critical to really tee this cow up, we don't really want to be shipping one or two kilos of that to fight a big temperature uh effect.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, that's fair. Um so yeah, you've referred to some important insights from your research. Maybe you could talk us through one or two of the studies um you've conducted with this product.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, I suppose the most interesting one is it's a very large herd. Um in the year 2024 on the main farm, they calved in 2035 uh second lactation and older cows, and all that they had five cases of milk fever. So using a negative DCAD diet, but absolutely exemplary in terms of managing cows and calcium status. And no matter where you go in the world, you know, a quarter of a percent of cows having a clinical case is as good as you will get. So we knew when we started the work there that, you know, we were going to get, it was gonna be a tough challenge to match what those cows were doing, but it was absolutely exemplary. So in the trial, we had the group getting the standard uh treatment and then the group getting uh our two uh cowstar complete boluses like calving. And when we looked at blood calcium status, it was exactly the same. Numerically, we were a little bit ahead, but from a statistical point of view, there was no difference. And that's interesting because that shows that those cows are isocalcemic. So if we saw any difference in performance after that, it was nothing to do with calcium because they were all exactly the same in terms of calcium. We also saw in terms of rumination levels, and we know rumination and calcium status are completely correlated, that the rumination level between those two groups was exactly the same as well. But when we look at the levels of metabolic issues, so we look at in terms of so there were no clinical midfever cases in either group, which we expected. You look at your cases of uh retained placenta, you look at uh metritis, endotritis, dysplace of mesome ketosis, the cows in our group had lower results of metabolic issues in those first three weeks after calving. Really, where we see the big difference when we look at body condition scoring, we can see uh, and this is 140 cows, so 70 cows per group, we can see that we have a statistically significant higher body condition score every two weeks to 12 weeks into that lactation. So despite the calcium being exactly the same and the rumination being exactly the same, the energy status was notably different. We then saw, in terms of those cows, uh 2.6 kilo, so it's gonna be 5.3, 5.5 pounds of milk increase in milk production per day across the first 12 weeks in lactation. That control group were at about 100 pounds of milk, so they were no slouches, they were really, really uh top performers, but we still managed to increase the milk production on those cows across that time period. And again, when we look at fertility, in that group the conception rate of first service was 49%, which for that level of performance and production, these are 29,000 pound cows, is really, really good. Again, no slouches, whereas we saw that the cowsack group were at 63%, so uh a massive improvement of performance. So we've seen reduced levels of uh retained placenta and uterine infections and better body condition scores, and we know that those are two key drivers of better fertility in cows, and that data is very consistent. We do that on grazing cows and very high-yielding cows, we get a very, very similar profile in terms of that increase in milk production and the increase in fertility and better body condition scores. And if we go back to that research paper from Ma with the 22 studies, they showed when we put oral calcium, just straight oral calcium, into those cows, no effect on body condition scores, no effect on uh milk production, and no effect on fertility. Whereas if we take cow starch replete, where we've taken a wider range approach to tackling a wider range of issues, we do see a benefit across the board that you you don't get with other oral calcium products. It's fascinating. And uh there was another research group who were uh doing a lot around this whole idea uh idea of getting the calcium up consistently up to 48 and 96 hours after calving, uh, but very much focused on the calcium side of the equation and getting the calcium perfect. And in that way, they have got the calcium perfect, but certainly from the the available public, publicly available data on that research group, they're not having an impact in terms of energy status, in terms of glucose, in terms of BHBs, in terms of body condition score, and not seeing an effect in terms of production either. So I think again, when we look purely at the calcium side, we don't shift the needle in terms of stuff that's actually going to pay the farmer a return investment in terms of more milk production and better fertility as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Very interesting. So I think you talked about a little bit, but you this is a bolus that you give one time, like what's your target window? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So one of the big things we tried, it took us seven years to perfect the technology, but it is to be able to give one dose to the cow. So one dose is two boluses at the point of calving. Okay, and it will elevate the blood calcium all the way to 48 hours and all the way to 96 hours in those cows. And that's really important because statistically speaking, the highest risk period for milk fever is between 12 and 24 hours after calving. So it's not the first 12 hours, it's the second 12 hours. Most traditional oral calcium products last for, well, they'll claim 12 hours, but it may only be 8 to 10 hours. So when you put the first one in, all those manufacturers, if you look at the label, recommend that the farmers should give a second dose 12 hours after calving, so that when the first one is out is out of the system, you give an extra hit of calcium for these cows as they're just entering into that higher risk period. Whereas the concept we have is much more simple, it's just one handling of the cow, the two bolus go in the gun at the same time. But once she's done, she's okay for 48 hours, and after that point, they can start to increase. Their own supply of calcium. So it's very much in terms of convenience, in terms of uh farms that may not have a lot of labor available, or they may not have a very good handling and drafting facilities. So catching that cow the second time can be too much of an effort and a job, and it just doesn't get done. This just simplifies that.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, well, and I was going to say too, I think I've seen a lot of farms thinking more about the stress implications of locking up the fresh pen every day, and that's really declined in the US, I think. Um so having a strategy that you could take care of this in the fresh pen, and then in theory, if she's healthy, you're not locking her up again. Exactly. Um has you know has some real advantages. So interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

And I think one of the real advantages in reality is you know, the first time you go and you get the the gun and you bolus that cow, and you know, that's okay. When she sees you come over the second time with the gun in hand, she knows what you're about, and they generally tend to be very uncooperative. So it can be a really tough job to do. Yep, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Okay, well, we've got our famous questions we've got to throw at you. So, first of all, what's what's your favorite dairy-related book or resource?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

As you might have guessed, I like people who think outside the box and who just won't accept, you know, the standard protocol and say, well, can we not do things better? And I think as dairy farmers, I spend a lot of money asking and talking to people, like the accountant, like the vet, like the nutritionist. But there's one team out there that can tell those farmers an awful lot out there, and it's the cows themselves. If you could only learn how to read what that cow is trying to tell you, because if every cow is at all times telling you something about the environment she's in. So there are two guys in Holland who developed this system called cow signals. So I'm not sure if it's very popular in the US or some people know or not, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fantastic way of thinking about things. And if you could just learn to read what that cow is telling you, it can tell you so many things, and you can make some small, what you might think are small changes, but could be big changes for the cow, and you can make a lot of improvements quite quickly. If you could just learn how to read what that cow is telling you, it's very simple, but it can be very, very powerful and effective. And I think in terms of a dairy-related resource, that's to me is one of the best ones out there.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, I don't think any major brought that up on this show that I've heard. That's great. That's a good point. Uh, I'm familiar with that program. Very good. All right, what about your favorite book or resource outside of agriculture?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Okay, this one is a special one to me. So this is a book called Race Without End.

unknown 24:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

So this was published in uh 1994, and I actually have a signed copy. So back in the 80s and the early to mid-90s in Ireland, Ireland was a very poor country. We were bottom of the league in terms of economic development and everything. And this guy called Eddie Jordan set up a Formula One team and he became massively successful with that Formula One team. He was a really great entrepreneur, he won the Irish Entrepreneur of the Year competition, but he had an Irish team fighting at the real pinnacle of the biggest uh sport in the world. And just in terms of inspiration, when you're looking and nothing is going right in your country, and you can say, well, actually, people from Ireland can do the best of the best and fight up with Ferrari and with Williams and McLaren and all these big guys. And he he it's a hell of a story. That team now is the Aston Martin Formula One team. That team has worked billions today, but it started one Irish guy who was plucky enough to just give it a go and see how far he could take it. Wow, I hadn't heard of that story.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

That sounds awesome. Yeah. Yeah, and then that that was kind of right when the what the Irish tiger economy took off, right? Exactly, the mid-90s.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really started to take off, and we grew up a lot and everything developed. So we're very much at the top end of the scale, randomly in the bottom. But when you're in a place where you look around and everything is dreary, and unemployment is 30%, and there's no real kind of hope, and you can see something like this happen. I know he's inspired a lot of Irish people to kind of go, you know, we can do these things, we can fight on the global stage, and uh really interesting. Unfortunately, we lost Eddie Jordan last year. He died, but uh he's left a big legacy in sport and in business in Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Okay, last question. In your opinion, what sets successful dairy professionals apart from those who are less successful?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

If I could distill it down to one thing, honesty. Being brutally honest. I find, and I I will go to a lot of dairy farms and I have a discussion with them, and the guys that are really open and say, look, these are the problems I have, you can make a lot of progress with those guys. And sometimes, a lot of times, what we might find as being a solution has nothing to do with us, it's nothing to do with boluses or anything like that. There could be something else. But if you could just find a guy that's really honest, you can make real progress. And I think sometimes you go to farm and the farmers telling you, I'm here. Yeah. Well, you walk around the cows, you see the farm, and maybe they're here, but they might be down there, you know. So when you get out and you see, you get a really good appreciation for where they're at. But the guys that are completely honest, if the farmers here, they're there. They're not up here, they're here, or sometimes a little bit down here, they're a bit humble. But the guys that can be really honest and say, look, these are the challenges, this is what it's been we've been struggling with for the last few years, and we really want to focus on improving this part of the business, they can make real progress. The guys who just don't think it's a problem or don't uh address it or just a bit embarrassed or they don't want to admit it, you know, they just keep muddling on and not making progress.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I like that a lot. It it brings back to mind to me a very short list of key traits of a good leader, and one of them was deal in reality. Like, you know, you can you can pump people up, you can try to support them, but we have to face the real issues we have um with honesty. Like you said, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Well, John, I very much enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure, Barry. Thank you very much for having me. So, again, our guest today has been John Lawler from Anchor Life Sciences. And this has been another episode of the Dairy Podcast Show brought to you by Wise NetX. If you're not already following the show, you haven't liked it, make sure you do that so you don't uh miss the next episode. And we'll see you then.