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The Mister Gordo Podcast
Once More with Bitty Buffy
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Forever
ep 517
Aired April 17, 2001
IMDB Summary
With some help from Spike, Dawn attempts to bring Joyce back from the dead.
Directed by: Marti Noxon
Written By: Marti Noxon, Rebecca Kirshner, Steven S. DeKnight
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Hello, this is Brit and I'm Sarah. And we are here for another episode, finally. Forever. That's the name of the episode. Forever. Right.
SPEAKER_02No, it is the name of the episode. Forever. Alright, we're uh past the sad choice death, and we're here at the aftermath. Almost past it, yeah. Yeah. This is a kind of heavy episode. It is actually, I think most of the episodes after this till the finale, or most of them, not all of them, are pretty heavy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02To be honest. It's a very heavy uh last half of the season.
SPEAKER_00It really is. It's like it's kind of like Harry Potter, where it just got darker as it went. Exactly. This is the same thing. Yeah. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So how you been? Good. Um I've been off taking care of my mom. She had um knee surgery. And um haven't been doing much though beyond that. Um watched a few good shows, and um that's pretty much it. Yeah, how about you?
SPEAKER_00Uh, you know, just being a mom. I have been following the World Cup and Wimbledon, so I've been very sports heavy lately. Um that's that's soccer and tennis.
SPEAKER_02I have not been sports heavy.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02I've been okay with that. Occasionally I will see a video come up on my TikTok uh talking about, you know, some soccer thing, and yeah, I'm like, cool.
SPEAKER_00Well, the US did win last night, so that was fun. Um let's see. I've been listening to some books. I live I'm like in the middle of um Dungeon Crawler Carl, and it's pretty good. And I did read, oh my god, this was the saddest book I've ever read, and I was bowling by the end. The last three chapters, I was just snot coming out. I was like so sad.
SPEAKER_02It was called The Last Letter, and it was it was I can tell you right now that was gonna be a sad book just based off the title.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was because someone on my news feed was like, This is the saddest book I've ever read. And I was like, he's like, Yeah, let me see. Um I was like, yeah, so I got it, and I was like, Yeah, this is sad, especially if you're a parent, because it involves like sick kids and stuff, and um, and then it was just so sad. And then I had Amanda read it after. I was like, you have to read this book. Be sad with me. She was like, Does it involve blah blah blah and blah blah blah? It's like two of her topics that she doesn't like, and I was like, No, just read the book, and it does, it does involve one of the topics. I also don't really like it, but I was like, I have to. It was a well-written book, I will say that. And that was the only reason why I was like, no, you have to read it. It was like a really well-written book. And she also, every time I would walk in the room, she was just crying, just like even more so than me. Destroyed your wife. Yeah, she's like, I will never forgive you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Um, no, I have read some really good emotional books. Um, I don't actively seek them.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_02Um, I don't, I don't, if I stumble across one that ends up being sad or emotional, I'm you know, I'm an into it. I'm invested, and I'm I'll go through the entire thing. Yeah, the entire journey. I will not actively search for them though. Um yeah, I'm not really uh a big into sad books on purpose. I do like the sad books that I've read, but I'm not really like, you know, I'm into search usually either.
SPEAKER_00But I saw like dog tags on the cover and I was like, this is probably like a war romance. Not at all what I was expecting.
SPEAKER_02The title really should have clued you into the where that was gonna go. It's like when you see a dog or something in the movie, you're like, oh god.
SPEAKER_00I know.
SPEAKER_02So any movie with the dog now, I just I can't watch. I know that not all the times they kill the dog, but they'll hurt the dog and I'll just be upset the entire time.
SPEAKER_00I also it was really bad before kids, but now it's like if a kid or a baby dies, I'm like, I'm not watching that movie or show or something, I'm not doing it. But animals are still sad.
SPEAKER_02Like, even like supergirl, like I am somewhat reluctant to see that because I know part of the plot is that they're alien people hurt crypto dog. And I'm like, I don't like that crypto dog's so cute. And it's like nothing with a dog. I'm like, nope. It just feels unnecessary. Weirdly though, I have read multiple Stephen King's books where for some reason Stephen King feels the need to torture and kill a dog in order to.
SPEAKER_00Stephen Kane is a mentally unfit human being, I feel like to hurt children.
SPEAKER_02His books are amazing. But yes, I completely agree with you. Um the books are are fantastic, no matter what his mental illness is in real life.
SPEAKER_00Um I guess you gotta be a little crazy to be good.
SPEAKER_02So you know what? Bad people can do some really solid things. Yeah. Just because you're you're mentally not all there does not mean you can't make some really good stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true, true, true. Um, well, speaking of dark things, let's move on to this episode. Yes. I mean, it's not as dark as the last one. No, this one's not.
SPEAKER_02But anyway, um, we're gonna go ahead and dive in. We're in a dark room. It's daylight though. Uh Buffy looks cautious, moves uh through a dark room full of coffins. There's a snap. Um, harsh lights overhead turn on. We see Giles the doorway to a casket showroom in a funeral parlor. Um Giles enters, uh, followed by the funeral director. Buffy points out that the casket she picked out for her mother, the funeral director, says it's a good one, but might be out of her budget. Um, Giles stops him and indicates that he will be taking care of it because Giles has money. Yeah, his retro pay. He just spent like an entire year of not working and then bought himself an entire store. He still has money, guys. With a new convertible. Did he buy that?
SPEAKER_00No, he bought that before he got his retro.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, because he was having his little midlife crisis thing going on there. He had to have money somewhere. I mean, well, he had two jobs, technically. He had the school job, which probably wasn't paying a whole lot, but was paying him full time. Yeah. And then he had the watchers gig, which I guess they pay the watchers, even though they don't pay the slayers. But he still makes some sense to me. And then yeah, he got his retroactive pay from the years that he didn't get paid by them. Either. But anyway. Um so uh Buffy really didn't seem to be pension uh paying attention to anything really going on. Dawn is in a mood uh to be a pain, asks if Joyce would like something else, and how would they know she would like this? Buffy tells her that she shouldn't have to be here. She confirms that the coffin is the good choice, and Dawn is left looking upset that Buffy was short with her. And then we get to our theme. Doo-doo-doo doo. Um, we're at Buffy's house. Uh Buffy and Giles are sitting at one end of the dining uh dining room table going over paperwork and reviewing Joyce's funeral arrangements. Uh Buffy looks stressed and exhausted. Xander and Willow sit with Don eating a casserole. They mentioned that Joyce did not want uh want to wake, um, that she felt they were depressing. Don asks, uh, when did Joyce even say that? And Buffy says that uh she mentioned some stuff before she went into surgery just in case. Xander tries to get Dawn to eat, but Dawn refuses. The phone rings and Buffy asks Giles to get it. Um unless it's their father, and Giles agrees. Buffy's agitated that he hasn't called yet. I think it's the first time mentioned of the father in a hot minute. Seriously. Like uh I feel like the show forgot him and then is like, oh, we'll bring him mention him here.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Um Xander asks if their d uh dad is still AWOL. Buffy nods and says the number he left them in Spain is not good.
SPEAKER_00It okay, it just doesn't make sense to me because in the first season, which was only a couple years ago, well, a few years ago, but like he would show up and he looked like he was a nice dad to Buffy.
SPEAKER_02And then through the years they just kinda It's kinda like, I don't know, well I guess they didn't the writers and the they didn't the show didn't need him to be there. But if he was a good dad, he would become over more often. So they made him into a deadbeat who just decided to skip off with the secretary and travel and leave that alone. It just seems so strange. Yeah, and I don't know if we ever I can't remember if we get a resolve to that at all. I don't think we do, but I could be wrong because there's a small detail. I want to say they do mention him again, but I could be again, I could be wrong. I can't remember there's like a small detail. I know we don't see him again, unless um other than like a weird like scene that's not actually him.
SPEAKER_00So maybe they cancelled a new show because he came on it. They were like, no, this is gonna be a deadbeat show.
SPEAKER_02Oh for canceling it. But yeah, so I know someone had a theory. Some people had theories about the whole thing, but I honestly don't I just think they didn't need him for the show, and so they decided to just write him off in a way like instead of just killing him off, they decided to just go ahead and make him a deadbeat. What was his name? Phil? No. Oh my god. It was not Phil. Oh my god, now I'm gonna I'm blinking. I don't know. Hank Summers. Hank, that's right, yeah. Hank Summers. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um Okay, anyway, sorry to interrupt.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, no, I was I was I was curious about why their dad isn't mentioned more. Like I I I feel like they could have, in theory, kept him in their lives with actually bringing him to Sunny Dale.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like a uh every once in a ever every two episodes they mentioned something that he did or they said or Don went and visited him or something like that. You know, some something like that, you know? Yep. They didn't it didn't have to be a whole thing. But whatever. Um, maybe they thought about it too much, like we are. And they decided to just not bring them in at all. Um while they talk, Don asks Willow if she can go with her and um uh Tara to their place after the funeral, insisting she doesn't want to go back to the house. Willow looks hesitant and says that as long as it's okay with Buffy, it's okay with her. When Don asks Buffy, she looks thrown, but does agree. Outside of Buffy's house at night, um, a little bit later, Xander and Willow are exiting, both in fairly grim mode. Willow says she's gonna stop at her mom's house. Um she's been doing that a lot lately, even though we've never seen her mom after that one episode in season three. Um, and then Xander agrees that he should also visit her mom because fuck if he's gonna go to his own house.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And he's like, quote, these people are scary. Um Xander stops and sees Spike, who's holding flowers, and is about to place them on Buffy's front steps. Uh Xander tells him that he's not leaving them there, that this was not a time or place for his crap, and he can't win points with Buffy this way. Spike looks pissed and says this it uh isn't about Buffy. Xander tells him Bowl, and Spike tells him that the flowers are for Joyce. Um one of the only ones he could stand. Um Xander insists this is about Buffy, but Spike tells him um that he liked Joyce, that she was decent and didn't put on airs and made a nice cup-up and never treated him like a freak. He then drops the flowers by Xander's feet and angrily leaves. Xander's fuming, asking Willow if she can believe him, and then he um that he thinks he can put a big show and Buffy will go to him. Willow looks up in the flowers and tells Xander that he didn't leave a card, and Xander looks at the flowers too, and they both look at a retreating spike in surprise. So, like the scene is like I'm like What does that mean he didn't leave a card? He didn't leave a card to be Buffy wouldn't have known it was from him anyways, so he can't get points. Because he didn't leave a card. Could have been from anyone. Um I feel like it would have meant more if he did have his name on it though. Well, I think that was the point. He like they like in Xander's and I think most of the Scooby's head right now, because of him stalking and all his like his toxicity stuff going on right now, they think that he's trying to do anything to get in Buffy's good graces. Um, and this would be another thing to get Buffy to like him more or like go to him more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And by not having a card, this is just him paying respects to Joyce. It has nothing to do with trying to get with Buffy kind of thing. I don't know. Like I yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm not both Spike and Xander's side on this story. I feel like it's just a hard like Spike had been acting horribly. I mean, just like I I I come on Spike's side because I know he likes Joyce. We all know as an audience, we know he and he liked Joyce. But I don't think the Scoobies really knew how much he liked Joyce. But I also and the same time we have like everything he was doing with uh like stalking Buffy and taking her things and all that stuff, and then obviously locking her up. So I can understand from Xander and and like Willow's and everyone's point of view that yeah, he's probably doing he has some kind of underhanded thing going on. I can understand their point of view there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just hope you know the flowers got a nice face of water. So they were just left on the ground. I don't know what happened to them. They're like they let they leave them there. Um we're in Buffy and Dawn's room. Uh well, I guess it's it's going to each room, but Buffy is dressed and ready for the funeral. Just sitting on her bed. Dawn is in her room looking sad at the cemetery. Buffy and Dawn are standing there with the Scoobies with a group of people we haven't seen before, but assume they knew Joyce. Um, Buffy has her arm around Dawn and holds back crying, and we see the coffin lower, and Dawn is openly weeping. Uh the service ends, and the Scoobies hug them before moving off. And a bunch of people go to them to give them their condolences, and then slowly everyone leaves. Tara approaches Buffy, who is standing alone now, and she says they are ready to take Dawn back with them. Buffy glances back at Dawn, who is looking down and not looking at anyone. She tells Tara they should go and they leave. Um at the cemetery that night, Buffy is still standing alone at Joyce's grave, lost in grief. Something moves behind her, and we see it's Angel, and he tells her how sorry he is and apologizes for not coming sooner. In Willow's room that night. Willow and Tara have made a like a makeshift bed for Dawn on the floor. They ask if she is hungry. Um Dawn declines and then crawls into the bed and lays down. Willow moves to rubber back and comfort and tells her how she knows it sucks, and then reassures her that it in time it will get better. Dawn says she doesn't know that, and Tara pipes in saying that they do know that they are witches and they know stuff. Dawn angry says, Life goes on and I forget mom. I think in this scene, Dawn's like, You don't know what it's like. And I'm like, Tara literally lost her mom at a young age, too.
SPEAKER_02Like, what? Honestly, Dawn for this episode for the most part in this episode is the most annoying. There is moments where I'm like with her, like I understand on a level where she's at for the most part in this episode. She's annoying as fuck, and I needed her to back off. Yeah. Like the fact that she couldn't tell that Buffy was just trying to hold it together this entire episode, and she was like making it all about herself. It was just so typical teenager. Typical teenagers. Buffy herself was like she didn't acknowledge me, so oh my god, it's about she's angry at me. Yeah, it's just like this entire episode was like John Condition.
SPEAKER_00It's not my most favorite storyline. But anyway.
SPEAKER_02No, the she does more I rewatch it, there are more moments that I do understand her for. Like I I I I can forgive more at least. But uh, yeah, she's still not my favorite character.
SPEAKER_00No, she plays the character well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, she does. I think she does. She's a good actress.
SPEAKER_00But anyway, Willow looks upset, says she won't forget, and then trails off looking to Tara to help her. Um, Tara tells Dawn that she will make a place for Joyce in her heart and it will become a part of her, and that everything Joyce showed her and taught her will live through her. Dawn is just not listening, she's fixated on something, and she sits up and says she knows what she wants to do. She tells them they are witches and do magic, and Willow asks if they she wants them to teach her something. And Dawn turns to them looking determined, says she wants them to do a spell to bring her mom back, and they just look stunned.
SPEAKER_02This is like the f well, not the first episode. If you really pay attention, if you do a rewatch of the entire series, there's little moments with Willow, but this is like the first, like, alright, Willow, what's going on with you? Episode. Right here. It's like a very big, clear, what the fuck, Willow?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um anyway. So um Xander's bedroom at night. Xander and Anya have just finished making love. She lies on top of them, they're both sweaty and glowy, and they hold each other, and Anya says that that was better because of Joyce. And Xander looks freaked out and says, huh? And Anya explains that she died and she's gone. And they got Anya thinking about how people always die and are born, and knowing that it's all part of the circle that makes death less sad and sex more exciting. She then goes on about how sex is about making life, and now Xander is freaked out again at thinking about babies, and tries to say that it's for two people who are ready and are richer than they are. Anya tells him to breathe that she isn't ready for a baby, but the knowledge that she could is beautiful, that it makes them part of something bigger. Xander looks moved by that and kisses her.
SPEAKER_00They are literally like Xander can be annoying at times, but they're like my favorite couple currently on the show. Like, oh yeah, they're really fun. I think my uh ultimate couple was Willow and Oz. I really love them. Yeah, they were great. Other than like the cheating bits, but um yeah, I just Anya and Xander have such a good relationship, and I think I really like Anya's development. Like, it's not huge development, but she's definitely like from where she was to now, she's definitely developing.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, she does. She really does have a lot. Because I mean, if you think about it, when you first when you first meet her, she's trying to kill everybody, and um now she's like, you know, actively trying to be part of the the team and be human and live life.
SPEAKER_00I think some of my favorite characters on the show are like characters that started off bad and have redeemed themselves, like Spike. I mean, those are the best stories, and then they got better. Oz was a good character all around, but he did leave to make himself better for Willow, and then she became gay. And then she became gay, goddammit.
SPEAKER_02I was actually watching an interview recently, and I heard like some parts of these before, but it was like the first time I heard everything altogether about how they had wanted to make one of the main the the either Willow or uh Xander. It was always planned for one of them to be gay, and at one point they were leaning heavily on Xander, which is why he has a lot of like mini like gay freakouts in the first couple seasons more than anyone else. And um but then I think when Seth Ray was leaving, when Oz was leaving, they were like, Okay, well this is actually a perfect time for Willow because she's in college exploring stuff, and um, it was just a perfect time for to sort of have her, but also because Xander is like the jokester, they didn't want the one gay person to be like the joke in the show, yeah. So they kind of decided to like take that away from Xander. putting on Willow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can see Willows being gay.
SPEAKER_02Even though I still preferred her with Oz, but whatever. I mean to be fair, if we're really going to if she was bi, but the show wouldn't the producers wouldn't let her be bi. They only want her either be straight or gay. Yeah. And that's why she never can acknowledge that she likes guys after this, even though she does. Like it's just like so stupid. Yeah. Anyway. Um anyway so we're in Willow's room. Still nighttime. Dawn has a spell book and Tara and Willow are trying to comprehend what she just asked them. Tara soothingly says that she understands Dawn wants to bring her mom back, but it isn't possible. And Dawn asks why and then the magic can do a lot of things. Tara explains how it is different and not the natural order of things. Dawn hints back that making things float and disappear is not natural. And Tara interrupts her and says they don't mess with life and death. Because apparently Dawn's the only one going through this in the entire world. Willow tells Dawn that she isn't sure it's possible. I mean to be fair she does have the whole key thing aspect. Yeah. If she if she had put inserted this into her fight she would have gotten some points. She doesn't though she really could have she could have used I am a key I am not real kind of thing and input this into her emotions and it would have been fine. Tara says that it isn't the point. Will agrees can't think of a reason why they shouldn't do it. Tara explains that we just can't be allowed to alter the fabric of life for selfish and manipulative reasons. Tara tells her that um she won't be able to understand it now. As painful as death is it's natural. Wiccan swore an oath to honor that. Dawn interrupts her and says so it's possible then and Tara firmly says they cannot that even if it wasn't wrong, it is an advanced form of dark dark magic way past her grasp. Willow reluctantly tells Dawn that Tara is correct, that it is dangerous. And Dawn looks to Willow and accuses her, says she told Dawn she wanted to help. She then moves to her bed and lies down, looking incredibly upset. And Willow tries to talk to her but Dawn doesn't seem to want to hear her so we're at a hill in the cemetery I guess overlooking the cemetery. It's almost morning Buffy and Angel are sitting against a tree. This is like the next to the last time we see Angel on the show. Yeah. There's like one other episode. Buffy is leaning into Angel's arms. She tells him how brutal the funeral was but she is more worried about the next day. She doesn't have a map of what to do. She explains that everyone will expect her to know what to do because she is strong. Angel assures her that the people will understand that she will need time. Buffy says that this isn't the issue that she can kill vampires but her mom was a strong one in real life and always knew how to make things better. And Angel says she will find her way maybe not all at once but will. She explains that she can't um she didn't make it in time to help her mom and even though she understands that it wasn't her fault she is um she didn't even attempt CPR until she was told to Now she's worried about Dawn. And Angel pulls her closer tells her that it's okay that she's strong she'll figure it out and has people to help her. Buffy comments out it's going to be light soon. Angel offers to stay in town for however long she wants him. She asks is forever good and then takes it back instantly. She leans forward kisses him and they break away Buffy says he should go. He says he's sorry but she tells him that she's grateful he came um angel says that he can stay a few form a few more minutes and she brews closer they fall into silence.
SPEAKER_00It got annoying they like they're like the end of their relationship got kind of annoying but they like are so powerful together as like a couple on the screen.
SPEAKER_02I think they're not meant to be together though. Like I think that they're like Starcast lovers that can never actually be together. But they they're and you obviously the actors have a lot of good chemistry together.
SPEAKER_00Um I think that I don't know if he didn't have go like crazy killer man every time they went blink I think he would have been really good for her. But the fact that they couldn't even do that kind of will damage relationships but I don't know. I think they had really good kids.
SPEAKER_02I think it was more than the fact that they couldn't have sex. That was just a very big factor though but it was not the only factor and yet I think that Angel wanted her to be do more human things and you know experiences in life and everything that he couldn't give her of course I mean I don't think she he like he factored in the fact that you know she is part of the supernatural world. She is supernatural like just the fact that she's a slayer and she's super strength and she has all these powers she's never going to be normal.
SPEAKER_00But she still could like have kids in a marriage if she wanted to.
SPEAKER_02And if she wanted to but there's if you think of the opposite side was Spike greedy because of trying to get with her because not give her waited until he she was a full ass grown adult before she he made any movies not that he was actually actually interested in her before um yeah but he wanted her.
SPEAKER_00He didn't even give her the he was like no I'm gonna have you yeah because and you're not gonna have kids.
SPEAKER_02You gotta have two different things. You have Spike right now who has absolutely no soul who is making mistakes but is trying and and will eventually and you know honestly he does redeem himself within like this end of this season being him next season everything like that. Um and he everything leads to him making his own decisions for Buffy without a soul so I don't know Angel couldn't do that Angelus would never Angelus would kill them all torture them first and then kill them all. Angel with a soul yes is amazing but the minute he has no soul he's not there for Buffy. He's there to torture Buffy but he's not there for Buffy.
SPEAKER_00But the fact remains is he does have a soul.
SPEAKER_02Spike the demon and Spike the human loves Buffy like all of Spike loves Buffy. Only part of Angel likes say Buffy.
SPEAKER_00It just only I think I'm just gonna always be a Buffy more of a Buffy Angel. I I can see the appeal of Buffy and Spike but like I just some people it's hard to wrap your head around like this guy who absolutely hated each other and he's a lover's trope everyone likes enemies yeah but it seemed in this especially this season it just seemed kind of forced like it came out of nowhere for him to be like all of a sudden I'm in love with Buffy.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if you really want you have to I don't know like go back into the mindset people say like in the beginning. Go into the mindset of like where you know it goes and go back to like season two when he starts and go through that journey again and you can see it. You do you do see it. You see the um their connection it's not like I think they have a connection but I don't think they have like a romantic kind of connection but it's not it doesn't have to be right away.
SPEAKER_00But I don't think I didn't see it right away. I did not see it as I know I this is has any potential type of connection.
SPEAKER_02Maybe just like Angel they're not meant to be together at the end of the day like from the beginning of the technically technically in the comics they get back together. So boom yeah but then at the end of the comics they end up separated boom still I just think that I get actually she gets with Angel in the comics too and a woman yeah the comics are weird yeah the comics are I did read I feel like the comics are like this lost land of like you you dove in at your own risk because it legit all the rules go away. So all the rules they they put into the show they kind of take away for the comics they like completely they're like let's do everything it was very wild.
SPEAKER_00I only read like what season eight or whatever and I had to read online what else because it's hard to find them.
SPEAKER_02I'm kind of glad that he Joss Sweden had the restrictions he had with both money and CGI at the time the 90s because you can imagine if he had like HBO money now today with the CGI that we have today to be able to go ahead and make the Buffy how he probably wanted to we would have some weird ass motherfucking shit. I would still watch it though I would watch it I kind of want to see it I would watch it because I'm curious but at the same time I like that it was so contained um in the where how it was because not only the the age that we they were in but also the uh probably the money um and they didn't have the uh the stuff that they could have done like making Dawn like 20 feet tall how tall was she I don't know the giant Dawn and all that stuff like the whole storyline. I'm kind of glad that it was self-contained um I think it made it better. Like I feel like when he got himself into the comics and he could do anything I think he went a little a little bit crazy there. Yeah I think that's I feel like everybody thinks that I kind of feel like he needed to contain that again. So I'm kind of glad that he didn't have all that extra money for it. Well I say he remakes it and let's see I'm waiting for it won't be Jos Whedon making it because they're never gonna let Joss Whedon do it even though it's his work because of all the shit that he pulled well um that's a whole nother topic but yeah and um I mean that's a good choice because you don't want to slap someone's name on it that's going to have all this controversy um even if they were the original creator. I get it. It's not gonna make you're gonna have a lot of people boycotting it right away. Um so it's smart. I get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah um well we missed out on some stuff but what can you do? Yeah I would have loved I would have watched anything in the Buffy universe I would have liked it especially coming from Joss Wednesday.
SPEAKER_02No I wouldn't I wouldn't have liked uh Buffy's kids oh my god I would have been so um like it's I would I I honestly would be like little slayerettes I did I think I'm gonna get tired because like all this like they're everything they're doing now like the remakes are doing or not the remakes but like the the sequels and stuff they're doing it's just all about the kids and how old they're I'm like I don't care about the kids get the fuck away I don't want the story to be about the kids no one cares about you kids we care about the OGs. Oh my god I'm like I'm I was afraid with this new show I mean I was excited to watch it but I was still afraid it was all be about the new people and nothing about the old people which I wasn't here for the new people I was here for the old people we'll never know I know well hopefully maybe someone out there will be like let's go ahead and take a crack at this again yeah I hope so I think they're really willing to rework that first episode I don't know why they wouldn't let them rework it.
SPEAKER_00I don't know either I wish they would just release what they're gonna see everyone was on board for it.
SPEAKER_02Wow anyway did we finish that little section yes we we we finish with Angel who I think an angel is having a very weird time so the fact that he was able to make this trip is very interesting. So they what's happening in Angel around here around the same time is very interesting. So go ahead. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um at the hospital grounds that night Ben walks along a desert a desert desert deserted desert outdoor pathway that leads from uh one wing of the hospital to another he stops when he sees a cloaked figure lurking near a street lamp and he tells one of Glory's minions Jinx that he is sick of seeing them and he tries to leave but Jinx tells him that the Glory told him to come after um told him to come after hearing about Ben's relationship with the slayer. Ben denies any relationship and Jinx continues says that the lovely Glory would like him to encourage this interest as it may lead to information about the key. Ben asks why he would share that with the most unstable one and Jinx says that time is running out and every moment he fights Glory he fights himself. Ben tells him that he is not helping her find the key that he would never do that to an innocent and this is when he realizes his mistakes Jinx's eyes widen and latches onto the word an innocent and the key um and that's an wait, hold on. Oh an innocent the key?
SPEAKER_02That's an interesting choice of words.
SPEAKER_00Ah these are quotes okay yeah sorry I put a quote thing in there but maybe it just looks weird um Ben looks freaked and Jinx looks excited and Jinx goes to leave but Ben grabs him and tries to backpedal but you can tell Jinx is not convinced in full panic uh Ben grabs the knife off Jinx's belt and stabs him in the stomach and Jinx cries out and collapses and still freaked out Ben drags Jinx's body into some bushes and then takes off leaving Jinx for dead um in Willow's room um during daytime Willow and Tara are quietly getting ready for school. Dawn is still under the covers in her little bed thing. She's awake but turned to the wall Tara and Willow exchange worried glances and we see Willow look at Dawn after Beat moved to Dawn to tell her they were going down for breakfast. Dawn says she's not hungry and Willow mentions they have class after and wonders if Dawn wants to go home or Dawn turns and her eyes are red and swollen from crying. Dawn says she is going to sleep some more and Giles agreed to pick her up. Willow says she'll be back around lunchtime if Dawn is still there. Willow casts a worried glance at Dawn before filing Tara out but we see Willow unnoticed by Dawn or Tara raise a finger and focus on a book on the shelf making it magically push out from the stack in front of Dawn. Tara and Willow exit and Dawn um notices the book hanging out and grabs it and the front says History of witchcraft um at the magic box Giles is behind the counter going over some ledgers Dawn is with him giving things a good once over with a feather duster and we notice that she's very carefully looking at everything she cleans um John's Giles John's John's Giles says uh she can relax that she doesn't need to clean and now we see Anya who trails after Dawn just a little threatened at having another person infringing on her territory but also wanting to be nice to Dawn. She tells Dawn to sit down that they have amusing chicken feet to play with Dawn tells them it's okay. Anya tries again don't you watch television? I thought all children despise effort and enjoy cartoons and Dawn says she likes being useful and it keeps her mind off things. Giles tells her they can always use a hand Anya argues with Giles that he already has a hand, a paid hand, a hand that isn't the hand of illegal child labor. Giles shoots her a look and we see Anya get it and she tells Dawn it's wonderful that she finds doing Anya's job distracting proceed. Um Dawn casually asks if there are things that she should know off limit stuff. Lulo told her about some dangerous books and Giles unconcerned says that there are dangerous books but they are all on the second floor and labeled he tells her that if anyone wants something up there to come find him. He then offers to show her how to use a cash register and now Anya's alarmed ring sales with the money? She gets to find all the money What does Anya do with the cash is what I would like to know. Seriously she would have continued but a customer comes up as she moves to help them. Charles goes to storage and leaves Dawn in the front Dawn immediately goes to the second floor the off limits area and wastes no time she pulls out a folded sheet of paper torn from the history book and it has a spell book and some items that she needs for the resurrection potion. She pulls one of the ancient books out along with a few vials of potion ingredients and she stuffs them in her book bag and like starts heading down she makes sure the coast is clear. And she gets a couple steps down and freezes when Gil emerges from the stock room she holds her breath as Giles passes below unaware she is above him and he crosses and Anya is still with the customer and when they are both far away enough she heads down and throws her bag into the corner just as Giles calls for her help with a transaction at the cemetery that night Dawn is at Joyce's grave reading the instructs instructions but what she sees clearly upsets her and she does look determined though as she digs into the soil with her hands. Spike calls out saying he hopes it's only dirt she is after panic Dawn reels back and sees Spike standing above her. He tells her that if the spell calls for anything anything more than that she is going into zombie territory. Dawn desperately says she wasn't and Spike interrupts her says he knows what she's doing that the book she has is infamous. Dawn begs for him not to tell Buffy that she has to have her mom back and after a beat Spike um contemplates and then says he won't tell he will help in Jesus at night Jazz is looking through his record collection finds what he's been looking for puts it on and sits down with a whiskey it's cream the same album he and Joyce listen to together in the classic Buffy episode Beat and Candy he gets settled in and starts listening to the music.
SPEAKER_02This is like his one he's grieving moment for Joyce. I still would have loved to see them together I was kind of sad they never actually made it um I think that was because the actress um wanted to leave the show maybe no the she did she was when she was uh she did an interview and she was saying how I think in season three she has to leave and that's why she's very tapered off in season four and five and then eventually she's dead but yeah she has to leave I think in season three I think otherwise they might have actually put them together yeah um so towards a street uh in the street Spike leads Dawn down this creep uh dark and creepy area towards an old apartment building he talks about never using this guy's services before but there is talk. Word is that he knows everything there is to know about resurrection spells. Dawn is hanging back a bit uh looking unsure. She tells him uh she tells Spike he doesn't um have to be nice to her that she knows why he's doing this stalking her sister and would do anything to get in good graces with her. Spike stops exasperated and asks if she wants his help or not. Dawn says yes he continues saying that she isn't allowed to go guessing steps that she doesn't understand and she will never tell Buffy that about this that she uh she would drive a redwood through his chest if she found out. Uh Dawn asks if he doesn't want the credit, what does he want? And Spike looks away, says that he doesn't like when summer women um take it so hard. He then re um iterates that she will never breathe a word of this to Buffy. Don agrees and they continue on their way. In Glory's living room Glory paces angrily two minions turn nervously after her she's asking where he is um that should have been he should have been back hours ago. One of the minions Mark says um that he's sure Jinx is on his way um you're new and improvedness he is loyal. She turns on Merc and threatens uh that he better be loyal that if any of them switch sides with uh Ben she would drop to kick them she stops when Merc lifts a small plate of candy truffle on it. She says ooh chocolate she grabs it and then brutally backhands Merc who goes flying. She then eats the chocolate happily her mood shifts and then advances on the minions who backs away petrified um just as two minions come in carrying a nearly unconscious Jinx with them. Um the minions drop him and Glory runs to him and lifts him up she tells the minions who drop Jinx to mine the rug. She then helps Jinx to a chair and sits him down. She asks him if this was a slayer Jinx painfully explains that it was Ben, much to Glory's outrage. She starts to beat herself up and curse at Ben. Jinx continues and says that Ben told him about the key. This stops Glory who is fully invested uh barely able to talk through the pain he says Ben indicated the key was a person and Glory asks the key is in human form and he nods and says he believes so Glory is thrilled paces excitedly saying that it narrowed the search. While she talks we see Jinx pass out. Glory turns to another minion demands they fix him she wants to hear the whole story again without all the mooning. Ben apparently does not know how to kill someone he doesn't he didn't learn zombian rules read the double tap. Yeah make sure the dude's dead um uh in Doc's apartment um the place is a typical old guy apartment dark old and musty newspaper Stacked all over, maybe a few cats running around, a few aging, suffering plants, and a lazy boy required uh to complete the picture. Uh the door is unlocked and Spike and Don enter. Um the apartment cautiously taken in the surroundings. Don comments the place smells like grandpa, and Spike calls out to see if anyone was there. After a beat, Doc comes shuffling um out of another room. He's a good natured, very old man. He looks to Spike and says he knows him. Spike denies this, and Doc continues to say um he sees him around the corner mark. Spike says that isn't him, and Doc looks confused. Said he was sure it was just a different hair color, and then he abruptly asks, what day it was? And Don says Monday. Dawn comments that maybe they should go, and Doc comments that just because all the lights are dim doesn't mean the juices are gone. Uh Spike indicates to Dawn, telling him that her mom kicked it a few days back and they're wondering if there's something that can be done about it. Doc suggests a few tonics to make grieving fly by. Dawn says that she doesn't want any tonics. Desperate, she says she can pay him. Spike with what money, I have no clue. But Spike asks him if he can help or not, and Doc um looks to Dawn and then asks if either of them are witches that would have experience with spells of this magnitude. They hesitate. And then he plucks the hair from her head, she cries out, and the doc holds the hair to examine. He says her mother is a good candidate, strong DNA. Doc shuffles off to a tall stack of newspapers, starts shifting through them, mumbling to himself. Spike and Don glance at each other, then Don sees something. Um, we see what Dawn sees. There's a hint of reptilian tail curling from Doc's bathrobe. Groeped out, Dawn turns to Spike, who is lighting a cigarette, and missed it. Doc finally uh finds what he's looking for, a spell book. Lost him is the junk. He comes back to his desk and sits, gesturing for the others to do the same. Dawn hands him the torn page from Tara's book. Uh Dawn explains that she already gathered uh some of the ingredients, but there are some stuff she doesn't understand. He says that she has a um gora demon. He says that she has a gora demon standing between her and success. Spike comments that he has heard of the gora demon. Don says they stick close to the hellmouth, the eggs give life and the key to the spell. That if they don't have the egg, they they have no resurrection. Dawn asks if they can buy it. Don says they have to steal it from the demon's nest, and the gora demon won't be happy. Spike asks where they could find one. Doc tells them they will need a picture of Dawn's mother, and once she gets all the ingredients, including the egg, mix them and put them together into a center, the sacred circle, with a picture of her mother. Then she has to say this incantation that he wrote down three times. She won't appear in a poof that it would take a while for her to come to her. Don, now excited um that this could uh this could work, agrees. Doc tells her in a serious tone that this is a tricky spell and can't guarantee her mother will come back exactly the way she was. Sometimes things get a little off. Um Dawn asks if she will still be her mother, and Doc smiles, reassuring her, um, but says more or less. Dawn takes this in, seems determined to continue. Uh Spike asks about Gregory Demon again, and uh Doc tells him to go to the sewer entrance near Tracy Street and follow down. He notices Dawn pulling out cash and tells her to keep money to just keep in touch and tell him how it went. He offers his hand, Dawn takes it. His eyes go pitch black for a moment. Uh she takes her hand back, startled, but then Doc looks dormable.
SPEAKER_00So the sewer entrance that night, Spike, who now carries an axe, and Dawn approach the entrance to the Gora's lair. It's a rough tunnel that leads deep under the sewers. Spike tells Dawn to let him snatch the egg on his own. Dawn says she is going. Spike tells her no, that he has no clue what is down there, and he will not deliver the slayer's sister in pieces. Dawn says he will need her, that someone has to snatch the egg while he distracts the Gora demon. Spike insists he will manage, but Dawn comes back at him saying he said it himself. He is not sure what they are dealing with. She starts down the tunnel, and after a beat, Spike follows, commenting that she is a bitty buffy. In the lair, um, Spike and Dawn are in them in the Gora's lair, which is basically a cave with a big depression in the middle where the gora nests. They both peer at the sleeping creature over a large boulder. It's like this huge reptile beast because the show loves to have reptile beasts. I yeah, it's like the one thing they like doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh, but because it's laying down, it's hard to tell too much else about it. They can see its eggs safely behind it, and Spike and Dawn duck behind the rock. Dawn mentions it doesn't look too bad, and Spike says, wait till it wakes up. Dawn says she can't get to the eggs unless the demon moves, and Spike says he'll make a move and she must be ready. With that, Spike heads around the rock with his axe. Dawn watches, waiting for her moment to go. He calls to the demon, egging it on, and it wakes up, rears up, and it indeed is snake-like, and for the first time we see that it has three heads, not one. Spike reacts, um, and then the gora slithers menace toward Spike, who recovers from his initial shock and fends off its three fang-filled heads with his axe. Dawn swiftly grabs one of the eggs and makes off with it. Spike is bobbing and weaving, ducking the heads. He spies Dawn making her way toward the entrance of the lair, egg in hand, trying to back the creature away so he can join Dawn. Spike hurls his axe towards the Gora. It embeds right in the center of the left head, and the beast cries out and backs off at least temporarily. Dawn, near the entrance with egg in hand, calls out for Spike to leave. He joins her as they scramble up. Dawn slips and the egg falls and like breaks. Of course, Dawn. Yeah. The Gora sees this and goes insane, and Dawn is beside herself, and Spike keeps moving towards safety, and he tells her to leave the egg. Um Dawn argues and Spike tells her it is too dangerous, but she's already going down the embankment, heading for it again. As Dawn races towards it, the Gora roars with fury and prepares to strike at her with its two remaining heads. But right before the monster connects, it's hit with a large rock, and then there's another and another, and Spike's raining rocks down on it. Uh, Dawn grabs a second egg and runs for safety, and the gora charges spike, whipping Spike's legs out from under him with its tail. And Dawn sees this from where she now stands, um, near the entrance to the lair. She calls for him, and one of the gora heads catches him in the side and takes a big bite, and he spikes yells out and yanks his axe out of the creature's left head and then plunges it right into its chest. The gora falls back in agony. Spike scrambles to his feet and runs for the lair entrance, grasping his side in pain. Dawn helps him to safety, wincing at his wound, and she says sorry, and Spike asks if he got it, and she says shows him the egg, and they exit. At Joyce's room that night, Dawn, shaking with anticipation and fear, sits on the floor of Joyce's room on a folded white sheet while she prepares the spell. First she mixes the egg and the other ingredients in a bowl. Then she removes a vial of blood from her coat. She pours the blood on the sheet and spreads it with her fingers, making a circle. Then she places the spell ingredients and a photo of her mother in the center center of her circle. Finally, she pulls the piece of paper with the incantation Doc gave her on it, and she begins, her voice shaky, and says the chant. And we alternately go back and forth between the picture of Joyce and Joyce's grave in the cemetery.
SPEAKER_02Um so in Willow's room that night, Tara is working on her homework. Willow's desk uh at Willow's desk, but rather than looking at her book, she's gazing out the window, lost in thought. Willow is lying on across her bed with a journal, writing and thinking. Willow taps the journal with her pen, trying to remember what she had for breakfast. Tara notices something and gets up, going to the bookshelf. She asks where the history of magic book was, and Willow sits up, alarmed, looking guilty as fuck. Tara makes an assumption that Dawn must have taken it, and Willow plays stupid, not knowing anything. Tara comments how bad this is, that the book has a whole section on resurrection, spells, and potions. Willow stands freaked and starts to say that she didn't mean, but then she finishes asking how she would know that. That it's just a history book that would answer some of her questions. It can't do any harm. Uh which should have been a big red flag for Tara, but whatever. Yeah. Tara says that um it refers to a very specific resurrection spell and potions. Willow stands freaked, and Willow is freaked, asking how she should know that, and Tara says that she doesn't know, but she should get into major trouble with the information. She asks what else Dawn could have taken, and Willow quickly says nothing, and this causes Tara to look at her suspiciously. Willow back hacks and says, I think um, I think she took nothing else. And Tara says that um they can't waste time on that. Willow says they need to call Buffy. At Buffy's house, the phone is ringing. When Buffy enters, she grabs it. Tara's on the line telling her about Dawn and the magic book, and Buffy's expression turns to one of fear and concern. In Joyce's room, the spell continues. Dawn is does the final incantation. Dawn now looks a little altered, like a spell put her in some mild trance. The spell ingredients suddenly ignite, and before Dawn can react to this, Buffy bursts into the room. She demands to know what she has done. She stops, stunned, seeing Joyce's photograph in the spell circle, and she knows. She picks up the photo, appalled. Dawn's eyes were wide with fear and excitement. She tells Buffy that she's coming home, and Dawn pushes past her and runs for the stairs. And Dawn remembers her uh Buffy remembers herself and chases after her. Dawn bolts down the stairs, heading for the door, but Buffy, who is still holding Joyce's pitcher, is right on her heels. She grabs Dawn before she can reach the door, and they move to the living room as they fight. She tells Dawn that she has no idea what she has done and what she's been messing with. They don't even know uh what she eras and what will come through that door. Dawn insists that it will be their mom, and uh Buffy tells her that Tara explained that those spells go bad all the time, and Dawn insists that it won't, that he told her about the DNA. Um Buffy shakes her hard. She demands to know who helped her, and Dawn says nobody, and Buffy says that she has to stop it, reverse it. Dawn refuses. Buffy pleads with her and saying that she has to know this is wrong, and Dawn says that she needs her, that she doesn't care if she's and but she cuts herself off and continues saying that she's not like that. Um she has uh she's not like Buffy, she has nobody. Buffy shocks says she does, she has her. And Dawn argues that she doesn't, that she won't even look at her, he just she doesn't want her around. And uh Buffy tells her that it isn't true. Dawn, like a kid, shouts that this is true, that mom died and she doesn't care. Buffy surprised says she does care and asks how she can think that. Dawn asks how she cannot. Buffy hasn't cried, just run around um like everything is a chore, clean up after mom's messes. Buffy loses it, slaps her, shocking them both. Buffy starts to cry and says she's been working, keeping busy because she has to be, and Dawn says she doesn't, that she's avoiding her. And Buffy denies that, saying that she has to do these things because when she stops, Joyce is really gone, and she is trying to take care of things, but doesn't know uh what she is doing, that mom always knew. Dawn tells her she doesn't have to be mom, and Buffy asks her who else will be, who will be making things better, who is gonna take care of them. Buffy is weeping and Dawn watches scared. Uh Buffy tells her that she doesn't mean to push her away, that she doesn't know what she uh they're gonna do. There's a loud shuffling on the porch that stops them. It sounds like a person is limping or dragging something. And Buffy and Dawn look toward the window where we see a silhouette that looks like Joyce like emerging. But you can tell something isn't right. There's a knock on the door, Buffy looks so lost and she calls out mommy, and there's another knock and Dawn looks terrified and uncertain. She calls for Buffy who ignores her and um goes to the door. She lunges for the handle just as Dawn takes a picture of Joyce from the floor and rips it apart. When Buffy flings the door open, no one is there. Buffy looks stunned, impaneed, turns to Dawn, sees the scattered bits of photo. Dawn moves to embrace her, they hold each other, Buffy cries harder and they cling to one another. End. Ugh, the end scene was so emotional. It was emotional. Sarah uh um Sarah did a good job with that. She really did. It was a good acting. Yeah, for sure. It always made me think of Pet Cemetery. Sometimes dead is better.
SPEAKER_00Um I I do like this episode. I do.
SPEAKER_02I can't watch all the time though. It's not it's not a rewatchable episode for me. It's definitely not. Yeah, but it's so good. It is good. It's a solid, well-done episode, but it's very intense. And it there's not a lot of light moments. I think the lightest is Anya being jealous of Don in in the in the magic box. And being like, oh, you're in my territory. That's like the funniest part of the entire episode. Yeah. Other than that, it's very sad. Which is why I gave it a two or three. Three was mostly because that cheesy D-Man. Yeah, I could agree with that, honestly. Um, but it wasn't really cheesy this episode, so No.
SPEAKER_00But we made it through the tough sad. I think we've made it through the tough sad choice death episodes.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I mean, definitely they still talk about choice uh and stuff like that. There's moments, but there's not a whole episode dedicated to it. So this is the big arc for Choice's death. After this, it's just gonna be moments.
SPEAKER_00So um well, I think that's all I have to contribute to this one.
SPEAKER_02For this one, yeah. Same. Um, alright, guys. Uh well, we'll see you uh later time. Happy fourth. Um, it will already be past fourth when this releases, but happy fourth anyways. If you were American citizen, I guess. Um stay stay cool, people in Europe. I know you're all hot right now. Oh, I meant I thought you meant here on the East Coast. Well, we are we're all hot in in all of America right now, but we all have AC, so I'm just saying stay hot for Europe because they apparently need some some cooling down. Get some pools out there, some fire hydrants.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, let's wrap this Mamma Jamma.