ArtStorming
Ever wonder what makes really creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? In each episode of ArtStorming, we’ll explore how new ideas come to life, and how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new.
Host Lili Pierrepont takes us on a journey of discovery; inviting us to ponder what drives and sustains the creative spark within each individual.
With great appreciation for music written and performed by John Cruickshank.
ArtStorming
ArtStorming the Art of Remembrance: Eric Mingus
A hidden cemetery. A mill built by an enslaved craftsman. A song written on the hillside where roots hold memory. Eric Mingus joins us to unpack a lineage that runs through the Great Smoky Mountains, across Cherokee land, and into a body of work that insists legacy must stay alive, not embalmed. What began as a visit became The Mill—composed on site, later performed with Yo-Yo Ma, and now growing into a traveling forum that invites communities to gather, remember, and speak.
Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside? Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Artstorming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Artstorming The Art of Remembrance. My guest today is the multifaceted creative Eric Mingus. He's a poet, woodworker, vocalist, musician, composer, historian, and storyteller. You also might know him as the creator of The Middle, a project so compelling that it recently led to a collaboration with Yo-Yo Ma. And yes, he's also the youngest son of jazz legend Charles Mingus. But no single title captures the totality of this powerfully insightful human being. Eric's story has depth after death, perfectly aligning with our theme of how lineage, legacy, and death can be boundless inspirations for art. This was a challenging conversation precisely because of that complexity. We kept uncovering new layers of relevance as we went along. In the vast history of his life, we touched on everything from the legacy of family and musical tradition handed down from one generation to the next, the loss of legacy when the rights to an artistic body of work are left to chance, and the profound impact of our darker legacies of racism and slavery. Dive in with me as we unpack the life and legacy of Eric Mingus. I am here with Eric Mingus, and I have to say, I've been looking forward to this conversation since I spoke to your wife, Catherine Socora, who was sitting in that very chair at the end of last season. Actually, she was the one who suggested that you would be an incredible guest for our second season because she knew a little bit about what our second season is. So I think you've just come back from a trip that promoted your latest project.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I yeah, I guess it would be essentially I went to Montgomery, Alabama with Yo-Yo Ma to perform the piece The Mill that I wrote and we recorded. And it was just released recently. And part of the podcast that he has, Our Convention, which for the episode I'm featuring on is about Appalachia, you know, the the Great Smoldy Mountains. And we talked about my family origins there, and it's pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_01:And had you been to Alabama before this whole event? There's some crazy story about what even how this all happened.
SPEAKER_00:Part of it, I really have to say, is due to a friend of mine, Hal Wilner, who's no longer with us, who's a producer. Notably, he worked for Saturday Night Live. He was the he produced the music for the skits, not the bands, but but he also was a very eclectic producer and created these records. We didn't we didn't call them trivia records, he didn't like that, but they would be basically people from different musical backgrounds working together on a project that was devoted to one person composer. He did one for my father. The record was called Weird Nightmare. But he and I became friends as a result of that. And I'd been I was working with him for years on these projects. Um we do the music of Bill Withers or Ooh, I love Bill Withers. I'm just trying to think of Disney shows for years. And the pr people who helped him produce many of those shows just happened to be in the Great Smoky Mountains with Yo-Yo Ma. And I got a call. They said, Eric, we, you know, we're in the Smoky Mountains of Yo-Yo Ma. We didn't know that your grandfather was born here. And I said, Well, yeah, you know, that's where he was born, you know, but it the history of the family there isn't something we've like run down and do picnics with though now. I've changed my mind, and I think picnicking on the ground would be a good thing to do. They asked, there were a lot of things falling into place. Yo-Yo's presence in the Smoky Mountains is bringing attention to a lot of different things. And there was at the time there were park rangers that were trying to show the African-American history within the Smoky Mountains because as time went on, it gets forgotten, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. And how would Yo-Yo Ma be a part of that story?
SPEAKER_00:Well, Myo No has he's his, you know, our common nature is uh is really uh realigning us with our with nature where we're from, and he what he does that's amazing is he kind of lends his presence to help people. I mean, one of the one of the things that happened that is on this podcast as well is one of the one of the mountains, it was called Cleanling Stone. Um, but the charity were there for thousands of years, and it was, you know, the um their the original name was Quilly, which I think is the Mulberry place. And they actually, with the OEO's support, it got changed back to its original name.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_00:Um and uh so that's what he does, you know, and and in a way his presence there he connected me with it. I don't he wasn't necessarily involved with the initial project I did there. That was this um this organization called the Office of Warden Film, um, who worked with How Wilner and I for years. And they coordinated with the park rangers and an organization called the African American Experience Project, which was trying to basically show that within the parks there's other history other than just football. No, you know, there's no smallwald history. And I knew, you know, from my family what our origins were there. I mean, Amingus is a slave name, and my great-grandfather Daniel was born enslaved, and he happened to be a very gifted woodworker. He built the white Vegas family home, and uh we believe he built the mill that the that's still there. And the mill is there. It's all the Mingus Mill, you can visit it. Its purpose is more to show what a mill was like in the late 1800s. It's an it's it and it's like a demonstration project. Yeah, it it used to run. I don't think it's running at the moment because they need to replace a beep. But you could go and they'd be grinding corn for the chickens because they it's to demonstrate how life was for the settlers at the time. There's usually someone there that tells you how the place was run and what it was like. And the mill is a meeting place where people would go to get their their grain ground up and stuff like that. It was wrist smooth.
SPEAKER_01:So a center of the community. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:Um and the Mingus family built it. I mean, it's actually the second one. There's an earlier one that they built. Oh, this is the newer one that had a had a metal turbine that ran in the water, which is really the pressing for the era. And so there's really not much known about the family, or at least they don't talk about it in the in that sense. And the Mingus family were apparently the first to settle in in that area in the Smoky Mountains, apparently. Dr. Jacob Mingus was the one.
SPEAKER_01:And this is the white Mingus? Yeah, okay. Exactly. So that's well, that's what's such an interesting thing about I mean, this whole story is really about the discovery of these two branches of the family.
SPEAKER_00:Is that I guess yeah. I mean, I'm connected to both because that's how it works. It's uh Daniel is was born into slavery. They say the make the white Mingus family reared him, so I don't know exactly how that aligns. But but Daniel had a had a flagrant affair with the granddaughter, Clarinda Mingus. And that's how my grandfather was born, so were they of blood both bloodlines.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's you know, it's an awkward thing in some ways, because without slavery I wouldn't be here, you know. It's uh it's a it's awkward, but and interesting, and it and I have to say I never really thought to go there. It wasn't my grandfather. If you really want to get into the depth of the story, my grandfather, you know, lived in the Mingus household with his mother. Daniel moved on. My great-grandmother moved away. You know, they didn't want him around, so he moved on and he became Daniel West. He actually changed his name for the next family that he worked with, even though slavery was gone.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I guess that was that was the tradition at that time, as you took the name of the family you worked for.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I guess. Or maybe they made him change this. I don't know. You know, they it's um it gets into there gets in it gets into some sort of manipulation of one of the white mingus family members was the census taker. At first my grandfather was in the system as a white mingus, and then they took him out because they didn't want coming back and laying claim to the property. So when they asked if I would come and write a they said, would you write a piece for it? I was like, I guess, you know, I don't know. And uh Catherine and I just happened to be at the time rescuing a tortoise. Which sounds funny, but we have a tortoise that was needed at home.
SPEAKER_01:And a tortoise, as in a thing with a shell. A desert tortoise, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's and uh so we because you can't fly with a tortoise or reptiles for that matter, we had to drive it. So we were basically driving from New York down to New Mexico and decided we'd stomp in Charity, North Carolina, or Smoky Mountains, Great Smoky Mountains. And uh this is before it even really commissioned me to do it. You know, this was just I said, okay, I guess I'll go. And I went, and it was weird, you know, it was a it was a strange visit.
SPEAKER_01:And that was your first visit to this land.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, to that area. I don't think I'd ever really been to North Carolina that I recall maybe driven through it, but never really stopped. And it was fascinating to see it and in some way familiar. And when we first got there, I went to the mill, and at the time it was it was still functioning, and there was like you know, a person that greets you, and it was at it was sort of awkward because the guy he was descendant from a white family that lived there, and he didn't really have any knowledge of the connection with the mill and Gerald Mingus. And I guess it had become kind of evident to me. I the mill kept popping up because the things like Facebook, where mus bassists would go and like stand in front of the mill, you know, and sing, hey, here I'm with Mingus' Mingus Mills, thumbs up, you know. And I was like, Well, it's awkward. You're sort of celebrating inflatement in some way and you know, the creation of my family. So I didn't really I've been sort of weighing how I feel about it emotionally, and I still continue to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, just uh to to interject, did your father know anything about the history?
SPEAKER_00:Well, he knew it was yeah, he knew that his father was from there. I bel I I have a feeling he had gone there with his dad when he was a kid. In the history records of how other people talk about them in his family, my grandfather left, came back once, but they never came back again. But he I know that he visited his mother, but she was living in Tennessee at the time. But the amazing thing that happened out of all this is that I have family down in North Carolina I didn't know I had, um, and they're the West family. And we've gotten to know each other, and they and so as we were talking, basically your grandfather used to come here a lot and hang out with his brothers. Half brothers. So it was a gang of these guys that hung out, and they were apparently pretty formidable guys. And my my grandfather went on to be a the Buffalo soldier in the army. There's a whole other long story because when he ran when he left the Mingus family, he joined the army as a white man because he had red hair. And somehow he passed. So whatever I sent pictures of him, like he compared some. But I guess people did.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, there's that whole thing right now that redheads are all black. Have you heard that? I haven't heard that. Well, I don't know another.
SPEAKER_00:Or have some genuine or something. But you know, it it and uh he left and you know married a white woman. Like there's this whole other family of Minguses that didn't know, and I think some know now because of DNA. So then he got caught basically for passing, and then he left and rejoined the army as a black man and became a buffalo soldier, which of course has a whole other layer of history and the Indian Wars and all the things.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no wonder Yo-Yo Ma is so fascinated with you and the nearer story.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean he's been he was great, and he is great. And like I mean, like I said, the Montgomery thing was purely it was an event as part of the Equal Justice Initiative. And they have they have a legacy museum, they have a memorial. I mean, it's a it's it's an amazing place to visit. It you get a sense of that history that we all share, not just African American, but we all share. And it's intense and it's painful and it's earth-shaking, but I am so glad I went. We I had the option to sort of go and perform. I have to say, graciously, it was Branford Marcellus's performance. And he had Yo-Yo Ma involved in his compositions that he allowed me to do on my beast, so I'm really grateful for that. And well, dream of a huge fan of Ranford's. But the uh so I was there for a few days and got to see all this stuff. I I could have not, I could have said, okay, I'm just gonna say and focus on the music, but I decided to go to the museum and to the memorials, and it it's absolutely stunning. Absolutely important stop to make, as as difficult as people would would think it would be. Because I I grew up in the civil rights movement. My father marched, I marched and was involved in the country.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, were you are you from the East Coast or for the East Coast? East Coast. Okay, so you're from New York. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so, you know, we were very active in that. I when I was a kid, I went to a summer camp that was more politically active than anything else. I knew all about the history, but I guess I never in some way that instilled like, oh, why would I go to the South?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't blame you. I mean, uh I have the same feeling.
SPEAKER_00:I don't have a black history. I will have to say, and this is probably the stuff I shouldn't say on here what I'm saying. I I have a deep love for the South. I lived in Louisiana for a while, and they have a tendency to be straightforward and kind, even regardless of their feelings for you. Or their interpretations of your race, all that stuff. There's a certain if someone's racist or something or put the situation, it's in your face and you can process it. Whereas on the East Coast of New York, people are racist behind your back and manipulating things and they're like it's very well hidden because they say we're the liberals and we're we're not racist, but it's very embedded in the system. And yes, and the thing is when you go down to this legacy museum, you you know, I think a lot of times people think the the Northeast was like free of slaves or free of lynching, also. But they have a deep, deep input into that, especially lynching, as well as uh the profit from the slave trade went right to New York, right to Wall Street, and it's the foundation of much of the wealth this country was formed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, this is the reason that these conversations are so important. As we develop more confidence or comfort talking about difficult things, we get to learn what's what's really been going on all along. But so I'm curious. So with all this going on, I mean, well, this is the water you swim in anyway, but then there's another whole layer to it that is is your music and your father's music and and the piece of music that came out of this whole experience. Right. So you were describing, so you're with your tortoise and Catherine, and you you've arrived in the South. And um, so you know a little bit of the South, you're stopping to see this history museum, you get to the mill, and uh, had you already been asked to compose a piece of music at that point, or this is when you were just traveling through.
SPEAKER_00:I think we were discussing it, the paperwork is in the process. So I get there, and I was told that unfortunately the park ranger who was part of the African American Experience Project had some car difficulty and couldn't meet me at the time. And she said, The slave cemetery where your ancestors are is just past the parking lot or something. And I kept looking for it. I couldn't find it, I couldn't find it. I went into the the mill and I spoke to the person there, and they said, Oh, you have to go this way or that way. And Catherine and I ended up walking miles into the woods. We saw at least seven snakes, a couple of rattlesnakes. I was like, just we were like, Where are we going? And fine, and then finally we said, Well, we're not finding it. So we turned around. So we we made it back, but I was very frustrated because I couldn't find that cemetery. And went back to the hotel, and the next morning we were getting ready to leave, and I said, You know what? I'm gonna go back to the mill and I'm gonna see if I can find it. And sure enough, I just noticed this path going up, and I was right there, literally, like right there. Um, so I went up, yeah. So let me sort of hang out there on my own. And um I pretty much wrote the piece right then and there.
SPEAKER_01:So it just sort of uploaded.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it was I mean, that's that's my vision of it. That's my languaging of it. But I just sort of feel like that's I I just imagine you getting this upload.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I wanted to write about not just my experience, but it's my blood down in that soil in the roots of the trees that are around it. And I just decided that I wanted to give voice to it as best I could with what I know. You know, I grew up with a father who was very outspoken, not only about his music, but about politics. The well-known fables of Baldus about segregationists, Governor of Arkansas. I always traveled this weird thing of it's music, not entertainment, or is it entertainment, or is it music? Or can they be both? Or can you, you know, can you do that?
SPEAKER_01:And and um Because your father's take on it was a little bit more serious or something.
SPEAKER_00:He was very serious in what he did. So it was self-expression, it was political, it was Yeah, and and and arguably the titles of the pieces were more political than the actual music, because there isn't lyrics, or rarely there were lyrics, so a lot of it was the titling just brought attention to the topics, whether it could be some sort of imprisonment thing, something about the justice system, or racism. It was very much in it, and he spoke about it very much on stage, and and uh and I guess that's sort of the legacy I carry on, is I I do similarly do that. Though I try to be more or have tried to be more diplomatic about it. Because we're all I'm mixed race. I have a lot of stuff going through me, and uh I think it's really important that people just view the world not so categorized.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And also allow yourself to be more than what people determine your race tells you you're supposed to be able to do or not do, or whatever. And uh you know, that goes for politics too, you know. I don't this hard line between Democrats and Republicans is ridiculous. I don't feel anybody really addresses a hundred percent of what I want politically.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Especially when you grow up in a household where it's very defined, we ha we have to differentiate ourselves and come up with our own version of an interpretation of life. And so finding your own voice, whether you're a musician your musician's voice or your personal voice, is it's a struggle when you have outspoken parents.
SPEAKER_00:There's no difference between For me, there's no difference between a musician voice and my personal voice. I can't not be who I am and everything I do. That's a big part of it. But does it Yeah, the Mills story really kind of just happened and then I built on it. Originally it was just, oh, I'll write the piece and I'll come perform it. And I sent it I sent the the demo in and I got an email or or a call and they said, you know, yo-yo is obsessed with this tune, he really loves it and wants to do it with you. Okay. And so for background, my first instrument was cello, it was taught to be my father when I was five or six, and it was the same for yo-yo, he was taught by his father, so we already we connected on that a lot. Um, we're not too far apart in age. I was like, oh my goodness. And I was very lucky. I have my dad as my teacher as he also played cello, and then he would take me to see Poplovs at Carnegie Hall, so I love the instrument, and I'd been listening to Yo-Yo play for here, obviously more recordings. I think I saw him live once a long time ago. But it's we met there at the mill, first time, and just started talking about everything, and he's been an amazing supporter of this project in particular. And when he he was going to be in Montgomery, he felt like you have to be there. And luckily it happened. He mentioned it quite some time ago, and um I'm really thrilled that it happened because it felt like the right place to do the piece.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it brought it home for me in a lot of ways. Sure. I mean it's not easy stuff to talk about. It isn't. And I'm not sure. The whole thing is everybody gets very defensive. I mean, it's a big topic. They're renaming forts again, and maybe arguing about woke. But it's not about woke, it's about remembering that we're all a community, and we used to figure out how to get along as best we could and try to make it better for the people it wasn't so great for. And the thing about the mill too is that it's on charity land. They were there before anybody. And so there's this stolen land that there's this people that were stolen and brought there, and we have to figure out a way to keep coexisting because what's happening now is we're really just dividing more, and people are angry and it's such a waste.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that that's why I think what you've done, and you you and Yo-Yo have done with music is the it's an incredible unifier. I mean, me people may have a difficult time accessing a conversation because of whatever their prejudices or fear or shame that they bring to it, but anybody can listen to a piece of music.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it just in you know infiltrates us at a cellular level. And suddenly I have this fantasy that this piece of music came through you, that you are the instrument, and that it's carrying the healing for this particular story. Now that's probably over-romanticizing it a little bit, but I don't know. Maybe it's not over-romanticizing it.
SPEAKER_00:For me personally, it's been it's been wonderful. And like I said, I discovered I have actual family in North Carolina that are amazing and we're part of the same history. But it also has strengthened me in the sense of all this talking about this and my father and all of this is difficult in a lot of ways because it wasn't when he passed away, you know, when I was young. And in a lot of ways, his legacy isn't controlled by his blood family. It's taken over by someone else. And I suppose in a lot of ways you f feel when you're young and you lose a parent, and you uh feel you don't have any say in your parents' uh existence on the planet, you think there's something wrong. You think that your view must be wrong because people aren't accepting it. And uh it's not true. And and and I'm just as valid in speaking on my father as anyone. I know him. He taught me music. He was my first music teacher. I had a deeper understanding of of him than a lot of people. But talking about remembering or remembrance, I think I'm coming to terms with what how people are remembered, how histories or legacies are determined, and I'm struggling with that a lot. That my history goes further back than my father. Because a lot of times it's like I my life has been you're asking, it's like asked Charles what's talking about Charles all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:I'm fine to talk about it. For a long time I avoided it if I could, because I was trying to have my own career. Sure. I was making my own music, which I would say was more blues than anything else, but they're judging me in the jazz context, and I thought that was unfair because it clearly wasn't the music I was making. I mean, even and I would say I I don't really put my music in genre because the piece I wrote, The Mill, is more lead in in African-American classical vocal history, like with Paul Robeson and that that issue than it is anything else. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that was a question I was obviously wanting to ask. It's like was that upload consistent with the music that you normally do?
SPEAKER_00:It's consistent with the music that I feel, to be perfectly honest. The tune The Mill is on a record of mine, but it's called Grinds My Bones. So I was gonna ask you about that too. I switched it for this version because I make music I want to make, which is how I was taught. I don't know any better. I've had tunes that are sort of rock or blues or jazz or monk chanting, or you know, like old stuff. And I explore the voice as much as I can because I want to know the fullness of my instrument, how much I can sing, what sounds I can make, and I, you know, I also, you know, grew up around such amazing vocalists and cultures that have other ways of singing. I'm always working to expand it. I don't always want to do the same thing. It's interesting to me to take to try and do different things. And I mimic sounds of birds, and sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01:Did your dad no, I mean this is also great. So um, did your dad get a a a chance to experience your fullness as a musician?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I would s not no, I would say no, because uh I don't think I discovered until then, but I will say that when I was a kid, I could sing pretty well. They were doing a talent show in New York City, PS 198. And uh I we were doing a talent show and I was able to sing a song, you know. I don't remember what the song was to be honest. For some reason Red, Red Rodin goes bop blah blah blah along comes to mind, but I'm not sure that was the right. But he couldn't make the performance, so he came to the rehearsal. And he was sitting in the you know, in the audience and I was up singing, and it looked like he was sleeping. So I was like, Oh great, you know, dad's sleeping. But I sang the tune and we walked back. And he was like, that was really good. He was like, he was really proud of me.
SPEAKER_01:So he was had his eyes closed and he was listening.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's one of the things that he taught me is listening is the best tool in a lot of ways, too. Especially in all contexts, listening is important. We were brought up to be very observant and listen.
SPEAKER_01:And did he encourage you to explore in addition to your voice? Uh well, obviously cello, but other instruments as well. And do you have siblings and were they also musical?
SPEAKER_00:Some are, some are. I have a sister that's my full sister. Again, there's half-brother, half-sister. It's my bath Dab is married a few times. Um, my sister has definitely an ear for music, but she was more involved in fashion. My brother Charles, the oldest Charles III, he's a artist, painter. He's been around for ages doing lots of stuff. Fortunately, we're the last three who left living. There's my brother Dorian, who was a musician as well. Then Eugene, another one who was a musician, but also so yeah, we were all we're kind of in the arts creative.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But grew up certainly separately and and I'm the youngest.
SPEAKER_01:And so do you feel like you've been able to really dis differentiate yourself from your father's career and strike out on your own and and feel like you're your own human, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. I mean it was it's probably easier for me doing uh singing rather than playing bass. I do play bass, you know. And I mean when he taught me cello, we were kind of he was kind of teaching me his style? His style piano way. I mean, the real thing behind his teaching of me was that he recognized there was a similarity between the way I could pick up an instrument, having no knowledge of the instrument, find the notes on it, and be able to make music. And I, you know, and he does the same. He could, he could play, he played cello in the youth orchestra in LA and was great. And then they just, you know, and he was like second cello or something to playing it. And then when he made the first cello chair, they realized he couldn't read very well or sighting very quickly left, you know. So he had to really work on it because sometimes your natural ear can stop you from learning more of the theory and stuff. But then on the other hand, learning it by the page and being devoted to the page can also limit your expressions. So I think she was hoping to teach me through that. And in a way, I think you did. I I have good ears and you can pretty much throw me in any situation and I'll hold my own.
SPEAKER_01:So do you think do you think of yourself more as a a composer?
SPEAKER_00:I find I have a difficult time calling myself anything, to be perfectly honest. When you're mixed race, people are always telling you to decide what are you, which is the worst question. Someone has to ask that to me to know where you are. Right, exactly. And then no matter what I would choose, someone else would look at me and decide I'm something else. So it's like it's not up to me what my race is. So I don't acknowledge it anymore. I'm like, I'm just who I am, and I do the best I can to get through this life unscathed. And then with music, all the people I know that create music listen to other music, they're not just one thing. And yo-yo, I went in and go, Oh, it's yo-yo ma. And I did not expect him to work with me on a piece. And then we are even talking about doing more now and trying to figure out what that would look like.
SPEAKER_01:So I guess maybe the the the better question is not how do you define yourself, but is there one thing that gives you more joy? Do you was what's your most joyful expression?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I mean, I love singing, you know. I really, I really do. I love creating music, but I I do working with the audio has been really exciting because we never play it the same twice. He's improvising behind me just as much as I'm working around him. It's and it's it's beautiful. It's really like so when we first did it, he listened to the tape and he came up with his own part, and it was great. And I loved working with it. And we did it again another time, and it evolved into something else. And then this time we did it in Montgomery, it was even better because he gets more into. It and and knows what possibly knows where I might go. I tell anybody I work with, I can rehearse it with you for weeks. And when I guarantee you, when I'm out there in front of the audience, I'm gonna go somewhere that no one expects me to go, even me. Because that's what I do. And when I to hit back to Hal Wilner, the producer that I worked with, that's what he counted on. He would put me in the show where he was worried, like he would do this multi-order show, and he'd put me in the in the schedule right where he thought he'd need me. Because I'd come out there and he knew I would shake it up. I think the gig uh I did a thing in Tennessee and Knoxville with Yo-Yo Ma and friends, and like we got to do the milk. But I think, you know, when I did the piece, uh, people was like, he blew the roof off and there's no roof. You know, there wasn't an outdoor concert, but I was like, yeah, I I can do by do my thing. But all to me is like I'm uh you know, I'm just a blues artist who applies it in every way I can.
SPEAKER_01:Just a blues artist. How old were you when you lost your dad?
SPEAKER_00:Uh about 14.
SPEAKER_01:That's a very tough age to lose a dad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a tough age, and also what's really aggravating about it is that people think when you're when you lose a father at 14, somehow you didn't know them.
SPEAKER_01:Oh.
SPEAKER_00:Like somehow you always were just a kid, and I beg to differ. I think we would bear a clearer view of what was going on in with him and around him that people would perceive. And and and one of the things I I always say, the thing about my father that I loved and always tried to emulate was that he didn't treat children like idiots. Yeah, people think, oh, he's just a kid.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And what his approach was and mine and how I think about it is they're just minds that haven't been exposed to stuff. So if anything, they're more open and more able to comprehend stuff that you don't need to protect.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And my dad didn't. He would talk to me about very heavy things when Martin Luther King was killed. It was my mother's birthday. And I'm very young at this point. And the phone rings, and it's my father. He's on the road and he had heard, so he called and he wanted to talk to me about it. And he said Martin Luther King was killed, and he talked about it. Nobody shied me away from it, and no one ran into the other room, and it was and I and it was particularly interesting talking about that in Montgomery, because I said I was on stage, I said that was one of the things, is that because when you go to the legacy museum there, or when you go to see the memorial that's visually documents the lynching that has happened across this country, it's powerful and overwhelming. And you can imagine, like, well, why would you want to show a kid this? But I grew up with all that stuff. I mean, that's the pound the people who want to ignore the civil rights movement are people who aren't the children that were there were children not only blown up in the churches that were blown up, but they were children also around that, and people experienced that and the violence in communities that we see, you're you're exposed to it.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm curious. So you've got these this very complex lineage. You don't have children other than the tortoise. And so how do you think about legacy? You just went to the Legacy Museum. You've done this beautiful job of knitting together a lot of disparate parts of yourself to create music that is from you and that will live on as your legacy. I guess so. Your music is your legacy.
SPEAKER_00:I guess so. I guess I'm not hung up on my own legacy, to be perfectly honest. I don't really care if people remember me after I'm gone. But it doesn't I don't think that that's not really it. And I in a lot of ways, a lot of ways, I know my father didn't really care either, which is serious counter to what's happened with his legacy and on the financial side of things. Because when the we it was a party, we were having my dad's birthday party, and and someone said, you know, when you die, your music's gonna live on forever. And he was like, What do you mean? They said, Well, you know, your music. And I think people forget this about my father, but he basically felt that if he wasn't there playing the music, it wasn't his music, it's not his music because he would change it on the stage, it would evolve, it would become something else. And it was very much, and the musicians he was with, it was very much a creative act to performance. It was a very much spontaneous composition. Things changed. He would turn and go, play this. You know, it was very active. Later in his life, not as much because he was ill and it was very hard for him to do it, but it was a time for discovery, and he wanted the audience on it. So, in a way, he was like, No, you can't play make his music. And so it's sort of counter to what's happened with his music. Now there's these dedicated bands that play his music in the format that he wouldn't want.
SPEAKER_01:Because he was gotta be very awkward for you.
SPEAKER_00:It's awkward for me, and also for musicians that used to play with my dad that no longer are part of that thing because it it's a misrepresentation. They've actually taken Charles Migus' music and made it jazz music. I I will say that the bands are great, and the arrangements are very great jazz arrangements, but it's not Charles Migus music. And I just wish that somebody would take that chance and say, let's evolve. Because I I think the musicians are amazing. Some of the best jazz musicians that are around right now playing in this in these bands. And they'll play the arrangements as written and they solo or they solo, whereas the concept musically is should be evolving and changing and move and maybe even create new parts or just try to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Have you ever thought of that person should be you?
SPEAKER_00:Um I've I've thought about it, but I think I'm contemplating taking on his music in the way that he taught me that it would be played. But also there's other music. Jack Walworth, who's his trumpet player three years, tried to work with bands with the concept that he learned from my father, and it it didn't go well. Again, it's the Western restrictions of what jazz should be. And because in the time of my father's life, jazz became a real genre, and it has to be played a certain way or for whatever. I'm not uh not everyone's that strict and everything, but it's uh it's it in some ways almost formulaic. So I think there's a mingus spirit that needs to go that I put through in everything I do. It's not just music when I'm doing ceramics, woodworking, instrument building, repairing. I always try to put a little bit of you know, spontaneity and creativity in the body.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I like to think of legacy more in that way, rather than this, as you said, what's happened to your dad's music, this sort of fixed thing that gets, you know, kind of crusty and old and irrelevant over time.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Well, that was the fear when when Jazz's started wanted to get recognition in the same way classical music got recognition. The fear from a lot of musicians was well, is it going to become what classical music has become? Because my understanding of classical music is a lot of it was there was a room for improvisation when it was written. They would say, Oh, well, the violin will do a solo over this. This is what I was told from a very important person. Said the music used to tour to the orchestras of each city, and there were sections where there would be solos, violin solos or a vocalist solo or something, and they weren't written in. But if the music went to a town where they didn't have someone that was really good at improvising, they would write in the solo. So eventually they became written in that classroom music was just as open and free as jazz to a coach do. I don't know how true that is, but that there are people that discuss this all the time. So the fear was that jazz would become that. In a lot of ways, it has, because a lot of it has to do with teaching.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because you have if you're going to set up an organization that's going to teach people how to do music, you have to have something to teach them. And so it becomes more and more structured as it goes. And that's definitely what I've seen in my lifetime of how jazz was taught to me in the beginning, from my father and other musicians, and then to what it is now. And what I do, I I work at the I work sometimes at the new school in New York. And what I do is I try to teach students how to step outside of that structure again and say, well, just play anything and see what happens.
SPEAKER_01:You and Catherine have that in common because she's also teaching people how to to work in the improvisational realm. Yeah. And I was surprised when she shared with me, it never occurred to me that that there are sections of classical music where it just says, you know, take it away, do your thing. And she said that certain classically trained musicians just sort of freeze in in that moment. Yeah. That it's a real skill set to be able to just riff on something, especially in the classical arena. I guess we think of that more as a as a jazz thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But it's it's in the line of music. And that's the thing, too. It wasn't just it it became a very dominant part of jazz is improvisation, but there are so many different cultures that had a set structure that gets improvised over, you know, a lot of a lot of Native American musicians do it.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm curious when, you know, now that you've had this experience with Yo-Yo Ma and the the this music that just sort of came to you, and here you're in this new land. Does the land here speak to you? Do you feel a different kind of sound or music from New Mexico than you did when you were in New York or something?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I think for me, sometimes being away from New York is probably better for me. You know, it holds it holds a lot of memories, some great, some not so great. And sometimes you, you know, you have a group of people that know you, and they know you for what you've done, and they don't necessarily let you have. So in some ways it's green to be away from it. Um, because a lot of times it goes, error, come to my gig and do what you do. And I'm like, what is it that I do? And they're like, you know, that crazy shit. I'm like, yeah, okay. Um New Mexico to me is I have an affection for it, and a lot of it has to do with the fact there are so many people from so many different backgrounds here trying to doing their best to get along and make it work, and that's inspiring to me. And cultures that have been here since before here became named here.
SPEAKER_01:Have you had the opportunity to work with any native musicians?
SPEAKER_00:Uh not here. That's in the orgs. We have native blood in the Mingus line, but we don't I I never feel that I want to speak on it because it's not enough to like I just I want to be an ally and I want to support everyone, everyone's voice musically. So I love working with anyone. And in my case, well, what's the largest percentage? And I guess I'll go there, you know. This weird concept. But I really I do like it here, and it definitely helps in my writing because it puts me in a good headspace. That's why the studio on the studio here is really good for that. And it's it takes me outside of what I know. I don't feel like I'd be the same musician if I was in New York still.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, the reason I was asking about the native music is to it just feels like you and Catherine have experience with musical genres from all over the world. And there's there are different harmonics, there are different rhythms, there are different beats. And because we're all so mixed up and spread all over the world, it's really hard to say sometimes what is influencing what. So I was just sort of wondering if that was a curiosity for you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I meant to say it's curiosity, but it's a huge part of who I am. When I was really young, we moved out of New York City to western upstate New York. I want to say near Oneonta. My mom and her then husband rented a farm or something and sort of plumbed into this school that was predominantly white and full of racists. And it was very hard. And I had one friend, and he was Cherokee. And his grandmother used to invite they invite me over to have a meal after school and stuff, so she shared some songs with me. And that probably is one of the most influential early voices because I never heard anything like it, and I'm always grateful for that. But I don't think people understand how much uh native indigenous music contributed to what our music is in America. We always say, oh, African Americans created rock and roll and stuff, but I was fortunate to meet Harry Smith who did this folk collection that's the one that inspired Bob Dylan to be a folk artist. And it's this great compilation. And a lot of it has to do with Appalachia, music and Appalachia. And I got to talk with him on several occasions. He was a New York kind of icon and was friends with lots of friends that I had. And we started talking about the music, and I don't think people realized that Smoky Mountains was sort of this place where everybody kind of got together, and I mean got together because that's how we have all these mixed-race people. But it's kind of a fascinating collection because I can imagine when it first came out, one would have a real hard time discerning who's black, who's white, who because it's literally just the music thrown together. And he said he does that on purpose. But he also said it's really hard because in the in Appalachia at the time, you had white people passing for black, and black people passed for white, you had Cherokee people black passing for white, so to speak. And he said, so all that music really kind of blended to become what we know that music to be. And to say that in that context, that mu American music is devoid of any indigenous influence is ridiculous. You know, like that just is valid. And also there are quite a few Native Americans that got into jazz as well. So it's we're musically, we're all in on this. And I think it's time to start naming those influences. Because I couldn't sing the way I sing if it wasn't for the music that is in my ears. And when you start really getting into vocals specifically and world music, the voice is just there there are lots of blendings and crossovers. And if you think about how we as beings traveled across this world in shared song, we there's a major influence on that. I think it's important to acknowledge that there's bleed in that. And I would never say that I came up with anything vocally on my own. I pick up stuff in my ears and I do it. Now when I play with Yo-Yo, I connected with him on a very deep musical level. Um I never would have expected. I mean, I love the guy, he's great. Every time we get together, this thing we're doing becomes bigger. And it's been great.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's so exciting, and I feel like music is is a really beautiful medium for bringing people together that way. And I was so excited to hear about this podcast that he's doing to acknowledge that we all have our roots in the same nature. Yeah. And I'm really curious to see where you go with this because it seems like it's just the beginning.
SPEAKER_00:The mill is going to be a big, a big project. We're in the middle of getting it more organized because the story is more than the one song. And I want to tell the story.
SPEAKER_01:So say a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I want to I want to tell my family story, but I also want to acknowledge the Cherokee's place in it. I mean, not that I'm the person to put the words to it, but I want, like I said, it's stolen people brought to a stolen land. Also, like I said, the white Minguses were the first to settle in that area. The thing that fascinates me about the Smoky Mountain area is interesting because all these people came and settled there, and then they got boosted out to make the park itself. So Teddy Roosevelt came as a get out because we want this to be really ultimately a playground for the wealthy people because it was the leisure class. Everybody else is working seven days a week. I don't know if people remember that that was our history as workers, but we did not have weekends.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:People don't understand that, but that's reality. And so while we didn't have weekends, the leisure class was going to these parks that the government had claimed preserved the nature, which I guess in some way I'm glad they did. But so those people who were the settlers who claimed that land and took to claim that land or were given the land by the government were then ousted. And the one thing about the Swilky Mountains that is the positive is that they can't charge you to go into it because that was the deal the settlers made was that their families are buried there, and we don't want anyone ever to be charged to go visit their family. So you gotta pay to park.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So the mill is a physical structure as well as some land around the structure that has the the slave burial grounds.
SPEAKER_00:And also the the Mingus family. And up beyond it, there's a you know a wall-in uh cemetery where my ancestors were also bad pieces, you know, the the white Mingus is. And if you go to where the Mingus Mill is, you're gonna come to the Okonalufte visitor center. And if across the street actually, where you're gonna drive through, there's this amazing little open fields where you'll see oh, but you'll see these two fields. And across from that, if you're going towards the Mingus Mill, where that open field is, on the left is where the Mingus House used to be. The main house used to be. So it's about maybe half mile down the road, you know, before it.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm just trying to the project is bringing attention to the property and all the layers of the history there. And is it is it also about Yo-Yo Ma's project, or is that sort of separate from that?
SPEAKER_00:It's separate from it.
SPEAKER_01:Separate from it just he just decided to bring it attention to that as part of the area, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And he wants to support my story being told because he feels hits in Port Heat in the context of America and how we all are. Because my goal with it is to take this store, the mill, tell my very personal family story. And it the original concept is to take I wanted to recreate the mill, literally build a mill and drop it in every city and have it sit there for like two weeks, and I would perform their the mill show or the composition. And then I wanted it to be a meeting place. This is what mills are, where we could all come and talk about these things. And what I really wanted to do is open that space to the people who are from the area. So if we plunked it down here in Santa Fe, we would open up to people who are from this area whose stories don't get told that much either, and give them a platform, give artists and poets and uh sculptors and everything a chance to tell their story that is have been quieted by the overall American story. And that ultimately is what I want it to be. I am now fortunate there's this amazing photographer, Chip Thomas, who was the doctor on uh Navajo Nation for 30 something years. We're working together on this project as well. And so we're, you know, getting funding together and it looks like it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01:It's such a strong vision that you have. And speaking of somebody who doesn't have a legacy, uh, that's quite the legacy project. And it's a legacy project, not for you personally, but because I think what one of the things that define defines a legacy project is while it may come from your direct experience, it speaks to an entire group of people who have whose story has not been told. I love this idea of creating the mill as a performance that can be taken from place to place to place. And I somehow think that that's what you and Yo-Yo Ma are gonna cook up or might be your project.
SPEAKER_00:But it's like I don't know if yo-yo will come along on it. I mean, I have projects that are adjacent to it. I have this vocal ensemble called the Sacred Reach Vocal Ensemble, which is very much in this storytelling thing.
SPEAKER_01:Um but I feel like the time is so rife right now and uh for conversations that highlight those aspects of our origin stories all.
SPEAKER_00:This is Eric's fun tour of America.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, it's really it's really important, and and it's it's the perfect beginning to a season that is exploring lineage, legacy, inspiration that comes from all of these challenging places, right? And so um I I thank you so much for being part of this, and we will see where it goes. So thanks for joining us today. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.heartbridgenm.org. And thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.
