ArtStorming

ArtStorming the Art of Remembrance: Miranda Viscoli

• Lili Pierrepont • Season 2 • Episode 6

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What if a weapon could become a tool for growth, a song, or even a room you can step inside to remember a life? We sit down with Miranda Viscoli, executive director of New Mexicans to Prevent Gun Violence, to explore how Guns to Gardens turns surrendered firearms into shovels, sculptures, instruments, and a traveling installation built by teens who refuse to let grief be the final word.

 I want to take another minute to remind you listeners that ArtStorming is a listener-supported non-profit, and we need your help to keep the conversation going. Every dollar goes directly into programs that support our mission. That means more compelling stories, more in-depth articles, and a greater impact on our community. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. Visit our website for more ways to engage, and thank you for being an essential part of our work.

 We're going to pause here for a moment to speak to our listeners. if you like this content, and want more information on our guests, their projects and more indepth ways to engage with us, you can find us on ArtBridgeNM.org or our ArtBridge Substack. Please read, follow and share our content. Your subscriptions, shares and contributions help us grow our artistic community. Thank you and now back to our conversation.


Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

SPEAKER_00:

Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside? Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Artstorming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Artstorming, the Art of Remembrance. And today we're going to take that theme to its grittiest edge: gun violence. Now, it's audacious to suggest that art can heal such deep wounds, but my next guest, Miranda Viscoli, is proving that it's possible. Through the Guns to Gardens and other art-based initiatives of the New Mexicans to Prevent Gun Violence organization, Miranda's team transforms firearms into art, turning symbols of tragedy into pathways for peace. Now, projects like these can help us all rethink how we remember those we've lost, how we heal, and how we build a legacy. So stay with us as we learn how to forge hope from the unexpected. So, Miranda, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, I've been excited to talk to you. I guess it was several years ago, I bought one of the Vos pieces, the gun pieces that you had at Santa Santa Fe.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And ever since then, I've been very curious to learn more about the story behind it. And then when I decided to do this season, it was such a perfect fit. And so when you agreed to come on the podcast, I was really excited to talk to you and learn the whole backstory and everything there is to know about um what you're doing. So you represent New Mexicans to prevent gun violence. Is that correct? Exactly. I'm the executive director. Okay, so you're the ED, and there are a number of different initiatives, and Guns to Gardens is just one of them. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01:

That's correct. And I would say, well, a lot of our programs are art-based. So we have other art-based youth programs that we do as well as the guns to gardens.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, great. So what I guess I'm most curious about the Guns to Gardens because it's the one that I know most about, or the one I was sort of intrigued by. So say a little bit about that, how you got involved, what the whole idea behind it was, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Guns to Gardens, it's it's very, very close to my heart. Um, so we began the the gun buyback program back in 2016, I want to say. And we the first one we did was in Santa Fe. And it took us two years to get an okay. And it was the late Mirror Javier Gonzalez who didn't give it up. He did not give up. And we had many meetings with the attorney general that this does not go against the law. Our first buyback, we took in hardly any firearms. It was like, no, we're gonna keep this going, right? And so now we are we just did our 25th gun buyback and to date have taken in over 4,000 firearms, with close to half of them being semi-automatic handguns and assault weapons. So um we it started out very small and it was slam doors, and then um it became a very, very successful program. But then what do you do with all the guns, right? So we have all these insane amount of dismantled firearms. And I had heard of a uh a man named Mike Martin, who had a group, it was called Raw Tools, and they were forging these guns into gardening tools. And I thought, well, why don't we do that? And so um we started the Guns to Gardens program with the help of Mike. At the same time that I thought, why don't we have youth do this? And because our youth are the ones who are the most impacted by gun violence, right? And so we partnered with an amazing nonprofit called SWEPT, Southwest Educational Partners and Training, where, and it's at RFK High School in the South Valley in Albuquerque. This is a high school that's lost a lot of young people to gun violence. And so we started giving them the they were paid to learn how to forge and weld these just these gardening tools, right? But then it kind of grew to this. I mean, it's grown. So then they started wanting to make other things. So they started making bugs and then um these beautiful, crazy, weird-looking insects to put in gardens. And then Pedro Reyes, who had also been in Mexico City, was my hero, he had been making these huge actual shovels where he would take it, it was very different. What he was doing is taking thousands of firearms and flattening them, and then from there creating his beautiful gold shovels and um music boxes, and he was one of my heroes. And then so Side Santa Fe was going to be doing an exhibit with Pedro Reyes. I thought, okay, I'll just call up and see. I didn't think anything would happen with that. And so I called um, I called them up and I said, I know this is crazy, but one of our biggest influencers on our Guns to Gardens program was Pedro Reyes. So it was Mike Martin Pedro, and I told them what we were doing, and they're like, Pedro's gonna want to hear this. So I was like, Oh, that's nice, they'll spend five minutes with me. Anyway, after a two-hour long conversation where I'm sitting with my literally one of my biggest heroes, he said, Well, let's do something together. And so they started, he said, I would love it if we designed these vases um and then sold them to create more money for the gun buyback program, but have the youth create them. And so via Zoom and our facilitating artist Jeremy Thomas, who lives in Santa Fe or Espanola, um, he worked with the youth to make what you saw those beautiful vases.

SPEAKER_00:

So we were um that was the Pedro's Pedro's work, the those beautiful shovels that were all I mean it looked like uh art installation, and they were actually usable shovels.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, they're they're amazing. I think they're worth 200 grand each. They're beautiful art pieces. So then um he had worked with the youth from RFK, and then sadly during that time, they lost two young people to gun violence at that school. Um it hurt us, it hurt our deck community because they were um 14 and 15 year old kids shot by kids. Um, I remember when Pedro and I were doing that, we were doing like a talk, two people in Santa Fe, and and the the principal came with the kids and he was sitting in the back. I said, Why are you sitting in the back? And he said, Rand, I can't, the kids can't see me this sad. Because we were here here we had been creating this amazing project with Pedro, and then two kids get shot killed. So it was I still get upset, but it was it was it was heartbreaking. Um so then uh uh the the students were really moved by working with Pedro and Jeremy and creating the vases and the gardening tools, but they were also heartbroken because they were their friends who were killed. Yeah, and so they spent the whole summer on their own creating a working xylophone and a fully functioning electric guitar in honor of those two kids made out of um the uh dismantled firearms that we had from guns to gardens.

SPEAKER_00:

So that was in the back room. So I saw this entire at Site Santa Fe, there was a room full of instruments that were also made. So those were Pedros.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh we saw those and they're we want to make one. So they figured out how to make a there's their xylophone literally plays in key. So they figured this all out on their own, just and they actually made a short film about it to honor those those two young people. Pedro was so sweet via Zoom, they would have questions about the guitar, and so he would say, Okay, try this, try it's a yeah, they're like playing with magazine clips and all these different types from the and Pedro was so amazing because he's like, just you'll find a way. It doesn't have to look like mine, his were pretty polished, and theirs were pretty amaz both as amazing, right? Um, so they did that, and then we started growing the Guns to Gardens program with these youth and bringing in other schools, and we just unveiled get this, the house the guns built. They built a house out of fireworks, they spent the whole summer building this beautiful, it's it's really a very large room that you walk into. It has it has a window that opens, and they took the barrels of the guns and they made the Zia sign, but it also looks like a target, so has a double meaning. And then they made these beautiful chairs out of gun pieces. And a teacher said, Do you want cushions for the chairs so they're more comfortable to sit in? And the one of the student artists said, No, it should be very uncomfortable to sit in these chairs. Our friends are dying. Oh gosh. Yeah, right? It's like what maybe we should listen to our kids because nobody told them to say that. Like that was that was what they wanted, right? And it's a beautiful piece. So now it collapses. We were actually trying to see if we can get it to site Santa Fe, and it will travel around New Mexico, and we want people to sit in this room built by these young people, facilitated by artist Jeremy Thomas, so that people can really see think about the effects gun violence is having on communities.

SPEAKER_00:

Holy cow. That it that's incredibly inspiring. I'd like to see it be a national program, as I'm sure you would too. Well, we actually guns to gardens became a national program.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, great. I had um, I was working with Mike with Raw Tools and other people on the East Coast. It's only got us some genius. It's like, let's turn guns into gardening tools. There are all these other groups that were doing very similar things. I had just bought the URL, Guns to Gardens. So I said, You guys, that's a good title. Let's all come under that umbrella and make it a national movement. So national movement that was created by many people, not me. I I simply had thought of Guns to Gardens as a title and bought the URL. But they were people that had been leading this charge for a long time in terms of transforming instruments they kill into instruments of peace.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So so say a little bit about your intro to this, because I know gun violence has been one of the reasons I bought the piece, is that it's been an anybody who has known me more than 20 years knows I had a an Instagram page or Facebook page that was called Stay Engaged after the that shooting um in Sandy Hook.

SPEAKER_01:

First graders.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. So after that, I just lost my mind and I started a uh a page to try to kind of keep the conversation going so that it wouldn't get yet again swept under the rug. And that was many, many years ago. And it was, you know, it was a passion of mine, just sort of my trigger. What was what was your entry point? It literally was Sandy Hook.

SPEAKER_01:

So I was I was actually getting my I knew nothing about the gun lobby. I didn't even know what the acronym of the for the NRA, I didn't know what it stood for. I didn't know why Charlton Hessen was talking about as cold dead hands. I didn't know I never really thought about it. I knew nothing. And then my kids were close in age, they were those kids were six, and my kids were eight and nine. And I just I was at that time I was getting my PhD at UNM and Mexican modernism and Mexican um to start history. And so I really knew nothing about the issue of gun violence, but because I had always been doing research and now getting my PhD and doing more research, I was, you know, pretty decent at it. So not because I'm a genius, but simply because I'd had the practice. And so I started researching the NRA and the corporate gun lobby in this country, and then I started looking at New Mexico, and at that same time, there was a horrible shooting where a young man shot and killed his whole family, five, including a five-year-old girl. And that was maybe maybe three weeks after Sandy Hook. That was right in the backyard. And it was a tragic shooting where this kid should never have had access to firearms, right? And so from there, I just I couldn't give it up. It was one of those life-changing moments. I quit working on the book I was writing for my PhD and just immersed myself in um in New Mexicans to prevent gun conflict. And since then, sadly now, probably because of my work, I know more people have been shot than haven't, but that's because of the world I live in at this point. But it's tragic how much it is affecting our young people. How I I kid around, but I'm actually serious. I will uh if I get shot, it will be in a school. I'm in schools from nine to three every single day. And I know kids are bringing guns to school. I know that this is happening on a regular basis, and it'll probably be an accident, right? These kids don't want to shoot up the school, they're you know, keeping it to do a drug deal after school. But the amount of firearms that are in our schools is heartbreaking. And they're just kids, they're not bad kids, they're just have access to firearms and nobody's really paying any attention.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you feel like the program that you have initiated is obviously if they've built this room, they're taking this idea of turning tragedy and violence into art and and delivering a powerful message out there to the world. So they are they seem you seem to have their engagement in terms of wanting to stop this. How is it having an impact? It definitely is.

SPEAKER_01:

So I was all there with a young woman who who now is uh we we have young people at part of our gun violence prevention workshop that we do in schools. And so we have people who are credible messengers, right? And I met her four years ago and she she laughed, she was telling me because I hated Miranda, couldn't stand her. See that workshop goes. I walked out because her whole life had been guns. Her whole life had been gun violence, right? And now she is forging guns into gardening tools and talking to youths, saying, put down my guns, right? And it's it's when we can continue to have a relationship with those young people and go into the areas where all they know are guns. They are born into it, they don't know anything else. Carrying carrying a gun is as normal as having a wallet in your back pocket, right? And so keeping these young people engaged and really focusing on those areas where that's all they know, and and going to them not in a place of judgment, and letting them slowly come to their decision to put down the gun, not telling them to, but having them hear all the other different stories, all the other different people have been impacted, forging guns literally into gardening tools. Literally the act of pounding that metal into a gardening tool or a work of art is life-changing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I can only imagine. And I would think too that there would need to be almost an alternative activity, obviously creating these programs where they're actually manipulating the materials into something new that has to get to them, get into their hearts and souls. But and then do they also have an opportunity to go into the garden and use the gardening tools to create something that's growing and alive? They can if they want.

SPEAKER_01:

So the the the program we work with also has a farm. Um, but they really love to forge. And the great thing about teaching them how to forge and weld is that now they have a trade. Sure. So a lot of them aren't going to college and they're not interested. Well, that's not there's not nothing wrong with that, but they're learning a trade. So that some of them are want to, some of the girls are, miss, we're gonna go start our own welding and forging business because learn how to make a gate. That's ex that you get paid really well to do that. And so it's actually they also see it as learning a trade that they can use for the rest of their lives. Sure. It's not easy to to forge these. You you put it into the the forge, it gets really hot, and you have 17 seconds to pound it very correctly, not too hard, not too light, and then you're 17 seconds, and then you have to put it back in, right? So it's um it's a delicate balance to figure out how to do it correctly. And the the look on their faces are like, look what I did, miss, look, I I actually did it. But so it's it's great to see them one have the ownership and and change their philosophy, um, and at the same time learn a trade and get paid. So they're paid an hourly wage to do this. We are we are very adamant that our young people should be paid.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And are there are there other artisan groups that are kind of uh ripe for partnering with in terms of like turning those guns into gates for members of the New Mexico, you know, residential community? I mean, everybody here has a gate. Oh, yeah, I know, right? It seems like they do. I mean, we haven't done that yet.

SPEAKER_01:

No, we're just we kind of like to make help it go where the where the youth want it to go. So they wanted to build the house, they wanted to build the bugs, they wanted to build the musical instruments that were kind of making, you know, helping them fulfill their dreams of what they want to build next.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that that's makes some tons of sense because obviously you want their buy-in, that's the whole point. As so, you know, the more buy-in they have, the more they feel like take ownership of the project, like it's theirs and it's born of them, the more they're going to be able to attract other kids and and get involved in them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And we're trying right now to see if we can work with the juvenile probation officers in Albuquerque, because they want to put kids who bring guns to schools into juvie for a year, juvenile detention. And we're going, that's not gonna help anybody. It's definitely not gonna help those kids. So, what we would like to see is if we could have those kids go through our workshop and then as part of a community service to help heal the community of what they did, that they have to do the guns to gardens program. They want to get paid, right? Because there's a be there's a would be a community service, but it could help them one have something to do, two, learn a trade in an art form and um heal the community that they hurt by scaring people by bringing a gun to school, but not put them in juvenile detention.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Well, have any of these art projects turned into standing memorial arts um objects for some of the children who have died? Obviously, the house is uh is a tribute to that, is is certainly a step in that direction.

SPEAKER_01:

When the house travels, it will have uh plexigitlas so that people can sign their name or the name of somebody who's died. Oh I love that. New plexiglass and then the next community we go to. And then we'll we'll show what every place that it is, the previous plexiglass. We unveiled a mural once, one of our other programs called Mural Standard Gun Violence, where students create murals um at schools, community places on the issue of gun violence prevention. And we left uh one mural a rose and said dedicated to and two hundred and fifty people came to the unveiling and we had a uh a special kind of marker that you could write on a wall and it wouldn't fade for people who had loss made of gun violence. And we thought, oh maybe we'll get ten or fifteen. But the wall was filled up after ten minutes to fill up and people are still writing names to this day.

SPEAKER_00:

So I don't even know what to say next. Obviously, this program needs to expand. And so what is it that you and your partners need most to get this to more people? Finances? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What every nonprofit needs, right? You know, we're we're slowly expanding. We've um so we had this murals and gun violence program that I mean, a lot of our programs are art-based because I was an art history major and did a lot of art. So yeah, no, and it doesn't take a scholar detective to figure that one out. But uh what we we started to expand our mural projects to include four different art forms. So we had the visual of the mural, but then we added an augmented reality component, which is computer arts. So people get a QR code, they put their phone up to the computer, it comes alive, but then we also added a literary arts component because we hire our um we hire spoken word artists to record pieces so that while you're seeing the thing, the mural come alive, you're sharing their poem. And now we're actually starting a film element. So we're making film shorts that also come alive of the spoken word artist performing the piece. So you have literary arts, computer arts, film arts, and visual arts. And now we're also incorporating music. So you have five different art forms that people experience in front of one wall that talks about the issue of gun violence prevention.

SPEAKER_00:

And are there plenty of walls available in New Mexico for this? Are people forward with options or offers?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so we're we're about to we're starting our 20th mural right now. So we've done 20. The augmented reality, we've done one, two, three. We're starting our fourth. So we just started the augmented reality, this whole portion of it. But people do give us walls. Um, we we well, we work with cities and schools, so we have them in schools, city um buildings. We try to make sure it's not in a private on a private wall. We really want it to be something about the community. Um, my dream project is to partner with a muralist named Ray Mix in Mexico City and Warren Montoya, who's a facilitating artist for our murals, and have them collaborate on a mural together so that Ramix would talk about how the guns that we have in this country are going to Mexico and destroying Mexico and South America. And Warren's side would be about what the guns are doing to the United States. And so that's my that's my next dream project.

SPEAKER_00:

That's an amazing dream project. I I just met a woman who who's here in Santa Fe who did a documentary called, I think they were called Street Heroine. Have you heard of Street Heroines? It's an incredible documentary about women from South America. I think they were Colombia and I'm not sure Mexico possibly, but they're all street artists. And it's it's the whole inside movement of women as street artists and how they're kind of breaking into it. And they they profile women in Brooklyn, some of these South American women who've come up to the US who are living in Boston and and New York. It's an incredible documentary. What is it called? It's called Street Heroines. Oh, actually, I'll I'll definitely watch that. It's incredible. And I I was so excited to meet. I went to a a woman's group, sort of uh just a woman's networking theater thing here in Santa Fe. And we all kind of went around and we were saying what we were up to. And she said that she had was a documentary maker and that she had made this movie. And I was like, oh my god, you're that person. I was I was absolutely starstruck because it was kind of like you with your with the people that you admire. And I just thought it was so incredible what she was doing because I I'm street art is another sort of secret passion of mine as well. Um I'm fascinated.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you got a tour of our 20 murals.

SPEAKER_00:

I would love to do that from Espaniola to Santa Fe to Albuquerque. Do you have an organized tour for that? No, I shouldn't. I'm at overcommand. Well, you don't have enough new S V E D.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I I thought about it. I thought we should do that because it's it's pretty amazing. And none of them have been tagged. We had a couple, a few little tags, but um not a lot. They've been really respected. There's there's kind of a code on the street. It's like somebody does a mural, you don't tag that. Yeah, even the tweakers are like, yeah, I'm gonna leave that alone.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's incredible. Well, my business before I was got into doing this podcast was was called urban art tripping. I organized art tours for people. And uh one of the things I did was in a five-day immersive here in Santa Fe, but COVID, you know, turned that upside down. But you know, you're talking about this this tour of these pieces. I that's something that has to be done. I I mean, I'd like to collaborate with you on that. Unless you come on board, you can give you that tour going up. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not sure that I'd be the one to do it because, like you, I've got a thousand hats that I'm wearing, but it's it's something that really does need to be done. And there's a number of artists that I've spoken to that are um in my last season, I spoke to all Santa Fe creatives, and there was uh, I think it was Santa Luna, um, was was really interested in doing public art, you know, street art. And uh Bobby Beals, who is a gallerist up here who does a lot with the skating community, was also, you know, talking a lot about that. So I think between, I'm sure between the two of us, we have enough resources that we could put something like that together.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, and I have we have thought about it a lot. And we're now creating t-shirts which and posters so that people can put their QR code on pieces of the images and then they come along alive. And so you can still have those five different art forms coming live literally on a t-shirt with a piece of the image of the mural.

SPEAKER_00:

That is so great. So are are your daughters? I guess so. Sandy Hook was a little while ago, so they're grown up now or modern son.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so they're yeah, they're 20, 22, and 24.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh god, isn't that crazy how they grow up? Yeah, have they taken an interest in in initiatives against gun violence, like mom, or no, but I I'm glad they haven't.

SPEAKER_01:

I want them to do their own thing. So I'm really proud of them. My son, he created his own business. Um, he created a business on his own. It's a Discord service. He's about to graduate from college. And my daughter's getting a she's in graduate school, about to graduate as a social worker working with veterans. So they're they're doing their own thing as they should. Up with my gun stuff for what he does.

SPEAKER_00:

But what I love about what you're the program that you're doing is that it's easy to get overwhelmed, and as I was when I heard about Sandy Hook and did the things that I was doing, to feel so completely helpless in the face of what how can we surmount this? But what you've done to turn it into something creative and to to make it attractive and appealing for people to stay, to get involved with, so that people that would not normally see themselves as getting becoming activists could become could get completely behind this. Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'll be honest, the first three years, we had more doors slammed in our face. We couldn't hand out a free gun lock. I mean, we what I remember finally, we finally got it was the Department of Health, and they got us into a community health fair in some rural area in New Mexico to hand out free gun locks. We're like, yes, we're invited someplace. And so we go, and the the Boy Scout leader who had his table next to us was so mad that we were there. He's yelling at us, he's telling us this goes against the Second Amendment. We were just handing out free gun locks. We didn't have any any flyers or anything, but just like a table with free gun locks. He finally got so upset, he folds up his table, slamming it, and just storms out of the building. And I thought, oh man, we have a long way to go. We have a long way to go. And then I remember it was the um it was the Powake School Board, and they we were doing the student pledge against gun violence that had been created by a woman named Mary Lewis Grove, who actually sometimes lives in Santa Fe. And we had been doing this because we got the schools want the students want us to talk about this, and they love the art-based part of it because they don't get a lot of art in schools, and so we've kind of grown it in schools because it was only students that would listen to us, right? And teachers. And so I remember the Powaky School Board um president calling, and we're like, oh my gosh, we got a second call in three years, in three years, right? And he said, We want you to present at our school board about the student pledge, and so we're like, okay. So we get there and we walk in, and I I love this man. I wish I remember his name. And he said, Thank you for coming. We look forward to hearing your presentation. Well, we looked behind us because we were so certain he was talking to somebody else. Something had never been that nice to us. And we're like, Oh, he's talking to us. So we're like, you know, I can care about our feathers. The NRA literally showed up to that board meeting um and and public comment, like a little tiny Powaky school board meeting, and said, These guys go against the Second Amendment, they're anti-gun. At this point, all we've done is the student pledge against gun violence and hand out free gun locks. And we thought, well, we got a long uphill battle. But I remember that moment as being one of the pinnacle moments because we thought we have finally have somebody's ear in this business. And from there, we have grown and grown and grown.

SPEAKER_00:

It's just it's so um confounding to me that you would come up against that kind of resistance for just wanting to. I mean, it I understand people don't want their guns taken away from them, but to want to end gun violence, who doesn't want to end gun violence, right? And to and to create programs that will engage people and give them the skills that you were just talking about by t teaching them how to weld, um, and and by giving them self-expression and all of these other things that are building better, happier, wholer, fuller human beings. How can anybody not want that? Right. It it was an uphill battle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So now we have more doors open than are closed, so we're at overcapacity because finally we're finally being heard. But we've been around for 13 since 2013. So what 12 years? We're about to have 13 years of our, you know, but it's been it's been a lot of work. It's been great work. Stressful, but great, you know. Um the stories we could tell. Honestly, we should write a book because what we went up against, but at the same time hearing the stories of our youth and what they see. And that's that's what breaks my heart, is that is our young people, the ones that the ones that are living it, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Are you familiar with a program here in Santa Fe called Little Globe? I can see their logo. There, they are they're organized around giving young people a voice and and teaching them storytelling techniques. That's right. And and and mostly through film and video and and other means similar. But I think that would be another incredible partner organization. And I don't know why. I just keep wanting, I want, I want you to be supported. And I just think that this is such a beautiful, it dovetails in so many ways to so many other existing programs. And the summer I did something called Collaboration Lab, where I tried to introduce a lot of arts organizations to each other that didn't know that they existed because we were trying to think how we could come together and address the funding crisis that was imminent and upon us and how we could support each other through this whole transition, or hopefully it is a transition and not a permanent thing. But I got to learn about a lot of really cool nonprofit organizations in the arts that I didn't previously know about. But it it just it would be such a one of the things that came out of that conversation was that we have to not just art organizations connecting with each other, but arts organizations and food security, arts organizations and housing, arts organizations and ending gun violence, obviously. So it would be a natural crossover that um yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I think I think is a great catalyst to change, right? It's it it opens a conversation, right? Forging a gun into a gardening tool is a whole conversation, right? That's some that brings the uncomfortable aspect of you destroyed the gun, but you're also creating something with it, right? And so I think that art is our best catalyst to to change, not our best, one of our best, in terms of how we can uh through the communication of the visual arts rethink our narrative. And I'm not anti-gun. I am not anti-Second Amendment, I'm not anti-gun, but I am anti-people shooting people with firearms. Simple as that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right, right. Absolutely. I was an art history major too. So how does your art history kind of come to bear on your new role in this capacity?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good question. So when we were one trying to just get doors open, it was through the creativity of the students that we found a way. Um, I think looking back on it though, in terms of my my working on my PhD and my major, what that helped me was with critical thinking and writing and how to formulate ideas in a concise way. And so I think if I really look at it, that was what was most helpful for me in terms of what I had been doing before. I probably wouldn't be as I don't know if I'm good at it, but I probably wouldn't be, you know, I don't know what the word is. Good sounds weird, sounds egotistical, but I it it helped teach me how to um come to the to the problem of gun violence in a different way. Thinking outside of the box. How can we how can we through the arts come to to have a conversation about gun violence prevention? Which is why Pedre Reyes was one of my heroes, because he was doing that in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, say a little bit more about him just so that our listeners can get it.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, go um, go Google him. He's a Mexican artist who um he was the original person, I want to say, who made the shovels out of gardening tools. And he has videos of it of him working with uh the Mexican government taking all of these firearms and flattening them out, making these beautiful tools. But then he also makes musical instruments and um all these other different pieces to talk about the issue of gun violence prevention. But he also that's not his only um way, that's not his only subject, he has many subjects on um nuclear disarmament and you know what are we doing with atomic bomb, and you know, so he really does a deep dive into a lot of different issues, climate issues. He's a he's a pretty amazing artist.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and so is is gun violence as prominent in Mexico as it is uh here.

SPEAKER_01:

What's interesting about Mexico, and that's why I wanted to do that mural with remix, is um uh you can't legally own a gun in Mexico, but yet uh whole communities in Mexico are being devastated by gun violence because the cartel has fire, right? And where are those firearms coming from? Us us and now China. So it's actually now both. It used to be mostly us, but now it's also China. And so you look at all these firearms are destroying so many communities in Mexico and South America, and these are countries that don't even allow citizen gun ownership.

SPEAKER_00:

It's so crazy to me. And and so obviously it the it's the gun manufacturers that are at heart of the big lobby that's preventing for you from getting your job done as as effectively as you could. Oh god, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yeah, just to pay it took me so we first started um also what we work on is legislation, and we first started there was not what got one firearm um law in the books, not one. The NRA had ruled the House and Senate since the 1960s, and in that time had made sure that there were more gun rights. And so we we come in, I'm like, okay, I'm looking at, you know, where's the gun violence in New Mexico? Looking at the data. I was working with Johns Hopkins and still at Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Violence Solutions, and uh I was looking at domestic violence, and I thought, okay, this is low-hanging fruit, but somebody under domestic violence restraining order should not be able to have a fire. We should be able to get that that year. At that time, Governor Martinez was the governor. I had Republican support, representative Nate Gentry, who was a Republican, was our sponsor. And I thought we can get guns out of the hands of domestic violence offenders. Boy, was I wrong. Six years. Six years to get guns out of the hands of domestic violence offenders.

SPEAKER_00:

And what's the argument again? I like I I help me understand what you had to deal with. Like, what was the argument against your very sound position, in my opinion?

SPEAKER_01:

Those quote unquote girls, which I heard over and over in the Senate and the House, just are mad at their boyfriend and want to take away his God-given right to own a firearm. That's really what you heard over and over and over. And that's not fair to law enforcement, but that's their most dangerous call. And I work with law enforcement, and they were insulted by that. Like, yeah, that's one of our most dangerous calls, and we go in to make sure that that person's safe, right? But that was their argument. We had one senator on the floor who said, You're telling me when I grab my wife's phone out of her hand, that's domestic violence, and I can't have my firearm. And I'm like, Yes, sir, she can't call 911. She can't call her sister or daughter or mom to come pick her up. Yes, that's domestic violence. And he proudly says it on the Senate floor. And that that's not to say that the majority of our representatives and senators are are like that. But there were s those loud few that that were a poison pill. The majority of them wanted to, and you know, and I feel for a for some of our Republicans who they're like, we want to pass this. We really do, but we have to get voted in, right? And same with Democrats, they would be the same way, right? So the there were the politics in it, but it was those. Democrats that were against it.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, really?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, what are you doing here? So, so in terms of the private support that you're getting, I would imagine you probably don't often know when somebody is supporting the program, whether whether it's politically motivated or not. Most likely it's not. Most likely there are people who see what you're up to, see the art arts element of it, and they they see the value, and so they're contributing to you regardless of their, you know, partisan opinion. So do you find that now that the doors are starting to open, that people are drawn to the program because of the anti-gun violence aspect of it, or because of the creativity side of it? The promotion of creative and and job generation?

SPEAKER_01:

Good question. I think it's probably both. I think it's the creativity and also the the work with youth. We are adamant to always work with youth on gun violence prevention. So I we we will never stop making our organization about our young people. And so I think that and we don't we honestly don't come off as an anti-gun organization. We're not. We're literally good, we're on the prevention side. I don't care if you want to go hunting, if you want to join a shooting sports, if you think you need this gun for protection, go for it. I don't care. But if you fall into certain categories where you shouldn't have a firearm, that's what we're about. We're on the prevention side.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I think I read somewhere, isn't it wasn't there also a time when it was difficult? There were laws that made it difficult for people to turn in a gun because in order for it to be destroyed, it had to go through some sort of process and that your program has helped offset that. 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's what that's why we that's why we started Guns to Gardens in Mexico. There was a need for it, right? So it's the stupidest law on any in any state. I think we might be one of the few states that has it. So let's say your husband has dementia and was a hunter, and there are 10 guns in the house, and his brain isn't working properly. Any other state, you would go, you maybe you could sell them, but you don't want to do that because you don't want them to get into wrong hands. Maybe you have a family member that could take all 10 guns, but a lot of people don't want 10. So you go to the police department, you say, Can you take these guns? And they would get rid of them for you. Not in New Mexico. The law enforcement will have to go to the court, and remember, we have no recruitment in this state is at an old-time low, and that's a lot on us. We have not taken care of law enforcement. I'll be very honest about that. Um so you're asking them to go to the court and say, Judge, these are 10 old hunting rifles. Can I dismantle them? Yes, here's the paperwork. Then you think that would be enough of a burden. No. Then they have to go and find the one historian we have in New Mexico to look at the this is what we have on the books, to look at that firearm and say, that is not a his historic relic. You can destroy it. So if that historian lives in Santa Fe and that old hunting rifle is in Roswell, do you think that's gonna happen? No. So we're taking better care of our firearms than we are people. Law enforcement gives my cell phone number to people all over the state. I've driven everywhere. I just picked up five firearms last week. People like I can't, I don't know what to do with this gun, these guns. Um, so-and-so died. So-and-so is suicidal, so-and-so shouldn't have these firearms, and law enforcement can't do anything to get rid of them.

SPEAKER_00:

And help me understand how is it that you were granted this special dispensation to be able to because I'm not getting cash. So transfer.

SPEAKER_01:

So when we did the background check law, um, if somebody just wanted to gift somebody a gun, they can't so I can go pick up, I could go to somebody's house, which I have, picked up 10 or 15 firearms and just drive off with them. And then I cut them up when I get home.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Oh my gosh. And so is there a facility that do you guys have a a full-on facility where all of this h all these transformations happen? Is it a like a big studio, a big You mean where they where they're forging the guns into No? I mean, you come home, you take a gun apart, and then you know, it sits in that box by the back door to take it to somewhere else. Or no, obviously it's not happening at your house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, actually, I do have dismantling at my home often. But well, right now we have um uh a storage unit, undisclosed area where I've so I keep them, they're all locked up, and then when the kids need them, we have I mean you couldn't do anything with them, they're all dismantled and you know to ATF standards, so there's nothing anybody can do with them, but we keep them, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

And and have any artists from uh other parts of the uh country or from the world who are in search of raw material have they approached you for yeah, material.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I've given a lot of material, a lot of ammo. So so there was one artist who went to make this beautiful uh maze out of ammo. I was like, okay, go for it, here you go. So yeah, we you collect the ammo as well.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't like to, but law enforcement can't take it. So it's so amazing to me that law enforcement can't take it, but a civilian with an art history degree and a chop saw. I mean, wild. That is so wild. And so do you have relationships with counterparts in other states? You said guns to gardens is now all over the nation. So do you have counterparts all over the country? And do you talk to them about how they're doing things in their state so that you can import your ideas? Is my question?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm on the advisory committee of guns to gardens, which now we've we've put over to we've given to raw tools, so they're um leading it because they have more time to do that. So yeah, we all are we were in communication about what's going on in your area. Uh we are the only one of the few guns to gardens groups that works with law enforcement. So we don't do a gun a gun buyback without law enforcement. I don't think it's not something our nonprofit would be safe, feel safe about. We love having law enforcement there. We like the partnership. They make sure the guns aren't loaded, they run it through NCIC, that's to make sure that it's not stolen or evidence. If it's stolen, it goes back to his rightful owner. When you go pick up guns, you have a law enforcement with you to so if I pick up the gun just as a private citizen, no, I just go get the gun and it's usually, you know, I can tell if you mean there's no criminal aspect involved. But when we do our gun buybacks, it's with law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00:

Got it, got it. But when you go pick up a gun, just somebody says, My husband died and I've got 12 rifles or whatever. And you just count on the relationship that you have with that person so that you know that those guns weren't somehow stolen or hadn't been involved in any other crimes, right? So you just go on gut instinct.

SPEAKER_01:

I go on I go I go on gut instinct. You can always usually tell. I mean, but there had been two times where I thought, I'm not sure. And one was in a very rural area outside of Deming. And I thought, yeah. And so I called the um local law enforcement there because they gave them my number. And I said, Okay, I'm picking up these firearms. It's very rural. You don't hear from me in five minutes. I want your I want state police here because it was that rural. And I got there and it was totally fine. They were um they were moving back to California with their mom with Alzheimer's and had 12 firearms that they did not know what to do with. But so that was so rural when I was driving. It's like I'm in the middle of nowhere. So I had that situation, and then another one which I was like, and then it turned out to be fine. But I street smart. So you can tell if somebody's trying to, you know, see you can tell within 30 seconds of a conversation. I've had a couple where I've just hung up the phone.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I don't know, maybe it's my imagination, but I could totally can see something where you're doing something, these people are trying to be legitimate, you're obviously legitimate, but somebody knows that the the transaction's gonna go down and they want some guns, and so they interfere with it. I could we're living in breaking bad country, so my brain's going to all kinds of nefarious scenarios where somebody might intervene so that they can steal whatever, interfere or come get the guns themselves. No.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I don't worry about that. I really don't. Um, because you can tell who the person who calls you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And so are all the um guns to garden programs around the country, are they all doing as innovative art stuff as as you are here?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, they're doing some. Yeah. What Raw Tools does is amazing in terms of what they're doing with the dismantled guns. I think there's another person in New England whose name I forget, uh, who is also uh turning guns into gardening tools. I don't know if anybody's quite gone to the extreme we've gone to in terms of a house and working guitars and stuff, other than Pedro. But yeah, it's just, you know, they might be.

SPEAKER_00:

I just don't know. Yeah. But the model that you're the your model is there for other people to imitate. Yeah, go ahead, go at it. I mean, if you have a bunch of dismantled guns, just go do something fun with it. Is there is there something that you've heard of that other guns to gardens organizations are doing in other parts of the country that you're not doing that you think is really innovative and shareworthy?

SPEAKER_01:

Um I'm trying to think. Otherwise, when I say no, I don't, I honestly don't know because we've been so busy, I haven't been keeping track of it. So they might be doing amazing pieces of art that I just don't even know about. So I don't want to say no, but I don't want to say yes. I just I honestly don't know. I would have to um to to see what everybody's up to. Right, right. Well, I'm alpha being built. That was a whole summer. These kids worked for six months straight with Jeremy Thomas, and so we're just we get so busy in our own little world that they might be yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm asking because we have listeners all over the country, and I would like people to be able to know that this program exists and if they wanted to get involved at the local level.

SPEAKER_01:

I would I would steer them to Raw Tools, so Raw could tell them just go to Raw Tools online and Mike will steer them in the right direction. He's the one that's running all the national, um, the whole national movement. I'm so focused on uh places in Albuquerque and New Mexico that are being hit by gun violence. So I'm kind of in my own little bubble. But Mike's the leader in terms of what are other people doing, what are other churches doing. He's brilliant in what he does. That's why I thought, give this to Mike. That's his so I if anybody in nationally is listening, I would have them go to Raw Tools and ask for Mike Martin.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, yeah, that's great. And we've got actually, luckily for us, we've got national and international listeners. And thank goodness gun violence is not as big an issue in Europe and other countries where people are listening. But I think it's probably fascinating to people who aren't beset by gun violence to hear about some of the things that we're trying to do here in the United States to end it.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, it's a uniquely American problem. Because every all countries have people who are violent, who suffer with substance use disorders, who suffer with mental health crisis. But what we have here is that you have all those same problems, but a country of washing guns. Yeah, and that's that's what makes us different. And the Second Amendment, uh I call them Second Amendment gun enthusiasts, who are just like the gun and nothing else. Right. That's that's what's frustrating.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, hopefully art will become more appealing than gun violence someday because of your efforts. If anyone wants to come sit in the house, give me a call. So so set I want definitely, is there a URL that talks specifically about the house that we can that we can link on this podcast so that people who want to see it can come see it. We're actually working on that this weekend because we just unveiled it.

SPEAKER_01:

But if they just put in, I think it was a KOB story, the house that Guns built, they'll be able to find it. There's a link to the to the news story.

SPEAKER_00:

But we will hopefully in the next couple of weeks we're gonna add that to our website. Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you, Miranda. This has been a really great conversation. I wish you so much luck. So great talking to you. Take care. Take care. Bye-bye. So thanks for joining us today. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in-depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.artbridgenm.org and thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.

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Lili Pierrepont

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