ArtStorming the Art of Remembrance: Francisco Gella

What does legacy feel like when you can hear it in the music, touch it in a ribbon, and watch it breathe across a stage? We sit down with choreographer and educator Francisco Gella, artistic director of Zeitgeist Dance Theater, to unpack how a 42-minute work about Chimayó weaving—aptly titled Lineage—became a living tapestry of ancestry, grit, and community. From building a human-scale loom to threading K-pop on pointe into a memory of a grandfather, Francisco reveals how research, risk, and restraint can turn craft into connection.

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Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Transcript

Season Focus On Legacy

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside? Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Artstorming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Artstorming, The Art of Remembrance. Today we're talking to a man who is fundamentally shifting the DNA of dance education. Francisco Gella, the artistic director of Zeitgeist Dance Theater, is doing something much bigger than just choreographing steps. While his work, like the one that I saw, a masterpiece called Lineage, is breathtaking, his true project is the dancers themselves. Francisco's on a mission to redefine what legacy looks like in the dance world. He's moving away from old school focus on creating technical performers, and instead, he's nurturing whole human beings. He's teaching young artists how to bring authentic selves to the stage, how to honor their heritage, how to build the mental fortitude to handle whatever life throws at them. It's about creating legacies that don't just live in the theater, but in the lives of the people who walk across the stage. So let's dive into this conversation about how art and life intertwine. Today I'm artstorming with Francisco Gella, and I saw your rehearsal performance this summer, and then I went down to Albuquerque and saw it. What was the name of that performance?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

It was it's called Lineage. Lineage looks about the Trujillo family from Shimayo Weavers, and it was specifically about their daughter, an eighth-generation weaver named Emily Trujillo. So that was um that was what was the work was about, and it was part of the UNESCO celebration for Santa Fe as being designated as a Creative Cities designation by UNESCO. And you know, they gave us a grant to to create this work, which I would never normally do a piece about weaving because it's not the kind of thing that normally inspires me. But it really changed the way I looked at myself and my arts and my process because I did research and I'm like, wow, weaving is actually exactly like dance. It's just on a slower, much slower capacity. But so many things in common, music, like you know, rhythm, uh, mathematics, pattern, choreography, design. Um, she she's inspired by music. So there's musicality involved. So it's just been it was challenging, but I came out of it a changed person.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

It was so extraordinary. And I've seen a lot of dance, and I know I said this to you and some of the other people who were there, but the rehearsal that I saw was impressive enough as it was. But when I saw the actual performance in Albuquerque, I was blown away. And I've seen a lot of dance, but to see that many performers on stage all becoming part of the warp and weft of the fabric that you were creating of the it was absolutely one of the most inspiring pieces of dance choreography, I think I've ever seen. And it was because of all those things you said. And it was because of the, I mean, not only did you capture just the actual act of weaving, but this idea of lineage and that the thread is this ongoing thing that connects generation to generation. And I mean, I saw, and it was like screaming lineage. Of course, I forgot that the name of the piece was lineage, but it screamed lineage, it screamed legacy, and so that's when I knew I just had to have you on the show.

K-Pop, Grandfather, And The Loom

Dress Rehearsal Chaos To Grit

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I appreciate that. You know, it's it's interesting because so I'm I'm the artistic director of Zeitgeist Dance Theater, which is a professional and training company here, contemporary dance company here that we started in 2020 over the pandemic. So the name of the company is Zeitgeist Dance Theater. We only have a summer season, and it's really, you know, when we started this company, we were doing more works that really reflected what was happening in society and the social, socially, and also, I don't want to say politically, but definitely like, you know, getting the feeling like the year before that, I did a piece about protest, not specifically about any kind of protest, just the art of the protest. Yeah. And so this lineage was actually, in a way, really a nice segue into a different process that forced me to really do research about the family. And it was really, really incredible to see how she was inspired by just you know, by K-pop music. That's why there was a K-pop section in that whole thing because we needed to make sure that it played into it. And then she talks about her grandfather, and that's when you know that one of the dancers came out with the ribbons attached to her, and all the dancers and the colors were being manipulated. So that was symbolic too, about how when we went into her studio and I saw how she was working, that was that was the first thing that came into mind. But it's like, my gosh, so although she's here as a human, like symbolically, there's all these threads attached to her, her process, her artistry, the way she thought about how she would weave. In fact, she actually was weaving at the time when I met her in the studio, like a divorce breakup piece, and it was about like a king pop song about her divorce, you know, like basically like talking about a breakup. But she was at that time breaking up with her ex-husband now. So it was kind of interesting to see her do that. And I saw like half of it done, and then she finally completed it after we performed the piece because it took another six months to get it done. And you know, when you think about the process, it's just like I I I could never be a weaver because I don't have that kind of patience. Like I like to create things and then see it, you know, see it out of her way, and even if it's not quite performed, like it took about two and a half weeks to create this 42-minute work with 44 dancers, and there's a little there's a lot of research that came about it. Honestly, I actually was so overwhelmed. But you know, I always I always get reminded by Tim Gunn from Project Remlay, right? You make it work, right? So I think and I think for people that don't even know, there's a little bit of background drama at the dress rehearsal. The costumes were actually literally falling off of the dancers, and it was a mess. Like, like while they were dancing, so we fought like it was emergency time. Two hours before the show, I said, pin it, pin all this stuff, do what you need to do, hairspray, whatever, tie it around. And then I knew the dancers were upset because they did not have a good run for the dress rehearsal. So when we did a circle before we actually did the show, I could see it in the dancer's eyes, and I'm like, it's redemption time. Like that was ridiculous. That we couldn't dance the way we can we could normally dance. So when they went out and did that show, you know, there was a conviction and and a grit that was part of it, and they were so in it because to make up for the fact that they didn't have that they had a bad run in rest rehearsal, which was a few hours before we were about to form the work, and I was like nervous, but we ended up coming together and you know, make made it we made it work.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And what incredible training for these kids to go on and and become professionals. Because if that is an an example of what can happen in professional circumstances, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah, there are always things that happen a lot. Like, you know, you can't run the piece because I mean, there was one time I was in like Philadelphia, the power went out in the theater. And then I went to South Korea and it was rain, it was it was like, okay, we were we were we were doing the performance and snowed, and there was snow on stage and it was outdoor. And I'm like, the it wasn't supposed to be that cool. And you know, like you know, the weather dropped, and so I mean, you know, you just have to be able to to, you know, the show must go on, right? Right. We're taught, that's how we're trained.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Well, it's there's so many layers to this because there it's like the legacy teaching these kids, you know, how to dance is a metaphor for life and how to dance through life and how to dance through adversity and how to dance through hiccups and all of these wonderful reasons that dance is one of my favorite art forms. And but you said you were changed by it. So say a little bit more about how it changed you and how you think it changed these kids.

Endurance, Listening, And Ensemble Trust

Resetting Works And Keeping Potency

SPEAKER_00 9:18

I think for me, you know, I always, at least in my life, I always believe that when you're when you do something that you don't necessarily uh like or are passionate about and you're forced to have to do something, you take your skill set and apply that to a subject manner that you may not be passionate about. And what happened there is because, you know, I had to do my job. We had to, because we got a grant. So, you know, this is part of the process. Sometimes as choreographers, you don't always get to choreograph what we want. And for the season, the limitation was that. And I think what happened there for me is that I really dove into the history of the family and you know, like how Shimayo weaving came into existence and how many generations there were. And I learned about the looms and also just the process. Like Lisa Trujillo talks about not being part of that family, being an outsider, being, you know, Jewish and a person not of color, not of New Mexican roots, had to go into that and feeling you know, being an outsider, and then literally like how to she fell in love with the art form and she she became brilliant at it. And she talked about that process. And so there was so much about what she said, about her history, about the tenacity, patience, and the grip to have to understand how to be able to fix a pattern when things don't work, but also how her own experience and her resilience led to her having so much knowledge, it inspired me. And so I dove in deeper and really listened carefully. In fact, when we hired the composer, we made sure that some of Emily's voices were used in the soundtrack because you know, because she needed to talk about the process, about her legacy. And so for me, you know, the question was how do we represent these different elements without breaking the bank? And that's how we came up with that loom. Instead of having a big wooden structure, we just had, you know, these poles and then had like a 15-foot canvas, you know, material. And we were like, let's do eight of them. And that's how we were able to play and made it look like the the dancers were being interspersed into that particular prop. And then the dancers, I think, had never done a full-length work before, like the majority of them maybe had done a piece, a maximum, maybe 10 minutes. So for them to be able to focus on a six-section work to original pieces of music, all different. My um, you know, uh the composer, his name is Ryan. He really, I'm trying to, I'm not so bad with names I'm thinking about when I'm like thinking about multiple things, but he ended up uh composing it to her voice, to Emily's voice, and each section had a different feel to it, because it had a different particular particular theme to it. And the dancers really had to learn how to be clear about the information and how the intention at each section fit into this larger work. And so I think for them, what they learned out of this was endurance and focusing on a larger scale and being focused and being in it, not just for 10 minutes, like, oh, I'm doing this opening section, which is about, you know, the legacy, and I'm doing this about pattern. And then they had to change it up when they took the K-pop section. And when the loom came, the loom section was mathematically so complicated lately. I couldn't even tell you. Like, we tried to count that music, it was virtually impossible. I'm like, oh, there's an eight here, a nine and a seven. And and finally, our one of my colleagues, Vlad, Vladimir Kondahishi, who is our artistic associate now, he said, you can hear the music go boom and boom. And then so we ended up listening instead of counting. Because you know, like a bit, but that's what they do, like they count when they weave. So we were trying to find a solution for something that actually didn't work. And so instead of counting, we listened. So the dancers learned different strategies of how to be able to solve an issue, an individuality timing by with different strategies. Like in this case, we didn't count, we listened. This one, this other section with the blankets, we didn't even we we listened, yes, and we counted, but it was mostly about visual cue. So, like that person can't go until this person goes. So, like if the person before us go comes in late, the rest of the work is pretty much off. And so we learned how to be able to really get in tune with each other as a company, which I think was important. So, like, you know, like you know, when you have a company of 44, like you have four professionals and the rest are trainees, it's a little bit of a dysfunctional family. I don't want to say too dysfunctional, everybody loves dance, so when we go into the space, everybody's there, but you know, you have your click clicks, right? When you're outside of the studio, but when we came into the studio, we really learned and unified, and the work unified us, and the complications and this and the the many things that went wrong unified us. And I could see it in a dancer's eyes. It's like we have to make this work, and so they would discuss what if you did this? It just became such an incredible team effort that to me, I think the dancers learned to let go of me, me, me, me. And instead of thinking about me, me, me, me, me, they thought us, we, we, we. You know what I mean? And so I think that was the most important lesson that they took, but also endurance and focus uh was the biggest thing that I that uh that they got out of it. I know that they were really taken when we brought the Trujillo family on stage, and they were some of them were crying because Lisa said, I cannot believe that you made everybody in the audience understand why we love our art form so much. It was it was the biggest gift. And so when the dancers heard that and when the family was taken, they were emo they were emotional, and I think changed them. It changed the way they they see different arts that are in art forms that are not maybe they're not passionate about, but I think because they've they affected the life of this legendary and iconic family of weaving in some mayo, and they were so and you know, it was received emotionally by that family, those dancers were changed and were changed by that.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, well, and as a member of the audience, one of the things as somebody as I said who's watched a lot of dance, I think what made it so good is when you see a company like Alvin Ailey, and you know, they are so good at what they do. And even when they've performed the same choreography a hundred times and the same principal dancers, and they make it new and fresh, what made your performance so incredible was maybe because it was that attentiveness to being in the moment that what made it so real for the audience. We were just as riveted and we were such so engaged as audience members because there was so much attention paid to each other on the stage. And so it made it a very captivating performance. Yeah.

Technique, Conviction, And Social Media

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah. And I will take that comparisonally to Abn Eli. Thank you. Because I mean, like that's you know, we only had 10 dancers from the year before coming back, so the rest of them were new. So to be able to have to come together in a two and a half week creation period to premiere that third week, it's a very short amount of time, but we're in the CGU from nine to six, and it is intense, and we get to know each other, but they also come into the space already vetted. Like we make sure that we interview each of the dancers before we allow them to come into our uh to our dance company space because we want to make sure that they are right mind and soul, and uh the most I think the common denominator that that is present in all of our dancers that we uh that we assemble during this time is they're humble, they're teachable, they love the art form, they have grit, they are they are always wanting to learn something new, they want to be physically challenged, they want to be emotionally challenged, but also in the end, they want to be empowered and inspired. Part of the process of this company is to inspire these dancers to also find like out more about who they are individually, but it's through a collective process. But because of that collective process, they understand more of who they are individually. And that sounds very weird. That's kind of a little bit of a juxtaposition, but it's so true. Like it's like I tell the answers, you cannot be a good improvisationalist unless you have great ballet training. Because you have to be able to deconstruct from somewhere to be able to make the choices. So that's why that's where your training comes from, like a modern and ballet, where you're that, where you have that. And if you decontemporary, you get something to do to basically divorce yourself in a way from because you have you have a reference point of how to be able to make something so structured and create something new in your body. And so I think like I believe in this weird conundrum of juxtapositions, because for me, it's like I actually had to make my process simple to create this very complicated, full-length 42-minute work. I relied on, you know, my mathematics, I relied on my instinct, I relied on very simple things. And when you're choreographing in a large group, you can't have as much intricacy because it gets messy. And I think, you know, like there's a couple of parts in there where I wish I changed, honestly, because I was like, okay, that's too messy, but I didn't have time to fix it. But I don't think like, I think, you know, for me, it's like the standard that I put myself always is to push for a much cleaner look and uh a very uh polished look. But I feel like I think for this one, you know, if it was a time to get messy in some sections, I think it kind of plays itself out to sometimes you know, threads they run, right? You have these like you know things, and sometimes it doesn't always work out. So I think it lent lent itself into the process. But thank you for saying that because we work so hard to make sure that the dancers that come into our company's company space understand what that is and there's expectation, but also they are so part of the process. I see them not just as instruments I work with, I see them as humans, the human beings, and what they can cut, what they can bring into the space. And a lot of the times I will all I relied on my instinct and I can sense the room when things aren't working, so I would change it up quickly, and instead of like trying to force it to work, and because you know, like you know, I just like you know what, let it go, let's work on this, and then another solution would come and it would actually be better. So we all learn how to work together, and also even if I'm the director and the choreographer, you know, it I was also a student in this process, and so it was trying to manage all these different facets and factors to be able to create this work, and I am so happy that you enjoyed it because there was so much put into this. And I mean, you know, I I I didn't sleep for three weeks basically because every night when I go to bed, an idea would come and would come at three in the morning. I would wake up and I can't go back to sleep and I would have to write notes. And I was like, I I I was exhausted, but I was also exhilarated.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, well, that that section, and when I came to the rehearsal, I think you had just given them the K-pop on point routine or whatever. Yes. Oh my god, that was like K-pop on point. I mean, just that juxtaposition was just I've seen rap on point, but K-pop on point was like a whole new universe for me. Yeah.

Breaking Body Norms And Access

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I mean, we we just try to play with different things. And you know, the concern for me is like, you know, is it gonna be talking? Is it gonna work? You know, I've been in this art form now, you know, for 33 years now, three decades. I started out late, but I I've seen and danced four different companies. I've worked with some incredible choreographers myself. So I think I understand what a taste level needs to be. But sometimes, you know, like you know, like the K-pop section, for instance, I was just like, okay, this is gonna be cute, but it can't be top. And so I actually relied on, okay, guys, what are the current moves? Okay, what are the current moves here? What are the hot, what are the hot things? Let's okay, let's k pop it out, this movement. Let's play around with it, let's help make it be fun because it's gonna go from really super fun and really more about like all everybody dances together to an emotional section that talks about her grandfather. And that's When the ribbons came out. And so I think two different elements coming together. Although I thought this is going to work, at first I was doubting it. And then when I saw this action, I'm like, oh my gosh, there's an emotional, a thorough line where you feel that joy. And then you you and then all of a sudden you go into something of a memory, and you're forced to have to go into that emotional capacity. Like so the switch, the quick, like pulling the rug underneath with what people are thinking, where it could be going, the unpredictability of that and this the quick uh switch actually worked. I was concerned it didn't, but then after we saw it and rehearsed it, and mind you, that costume did not get done until the second week. So we were rehearsing it, pretending like there were things they were ribbons attached to the body. And you know, when when we finally put together, I was like, wow, I I really thought that this wasn't going to work and the juxtaposition works. So those are the things that were so the tidbits that I found so interesting that were really valuable. And, you know, now it's like, oh, I can take an idea and I can put it together. Like now that choreograph, I'm not afraid to make a choice like that and understand that it could be this ceiling. It doesn't have to always have a fall, a thorough line, but then the second part of the piece could be completely different and it could work together.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Well, again, I what I love about this so much is that it's the metaphor for life and that these kids are learning how to approach life, their dance as and life in a way that is very spontaneous because they have to be able to literally pivot figuratively and in a moment or to the new, a new bit of music or a new concept or a new theme or a new emotion. And part of what the reason for that we're doing this whole series is to really introduce the general public to how an artist thinks and how an artist moves through life. And whether we're talking about staring down a blank canvas or whether we're talking about creating choreography, movement through space and time, you know, there are all these decisions that have to be made in the moment, deliberate. And what's cool about dance is that once like music is once it's been choreographed, you get to do it again and again. And there are these different iterations of it. Whereas the painting, you know, is kind of done once, but it it gives you even more capacity to do that spontaneous thing with life as it's coming at you. You might have choreography in mind, but new circumstances, snow on the stage, or whatever it is, it's coming at you.

Choreography As Engineering And Identity

SPEAKER_00 25:11

You know, it's interesting when you see that because, you know, like I have several pieces that are out, like Philadelphia Dance Company is doing my Vivaldi, they've been touring it all over the world. It's called Seasons. And I originally choreographed it in 2022, touring it, but it's with a different cast. And it's interesting to see how the new cast is receiving the steps that I made with a different group of artists, dancers, because those it's always a challenge when you're working with dancers and you're you're creating it on them specifically. And those dancers, half of them leave the company, and then there's new dancers coming in, and they have to acquire that information, but that information wasn't made on them. That's part of the job, too, with a dancer, right? You have to be able to take information, make it your own, even if it wasn't made on you. And so I think the challenge, and I always ask myself, if we were to reset this work with a different group, would it have the same feeling? And that's the that's the part that's challenging because if you have a different group and maybe they don't have the understanding because they're just now it's a reset as opposed to creating it on them originally, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Because they're not part of the co-creation of the original, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

You're trying to make them fit into a narrative that they weren't part of creating. And so I think that that's the part where it gets challenging. But I think as a rehearsal director as well, trying to talk to them about the instances and the facets that make the work what it is. And although we saw an original creation, I think taking them back there, that sort of video really helps because they can see what the dancers were doing and how they're performing it. I always always wonder like what back way back when we didn't have videos and they did La Bahn notation, like, how did they replicate these works? And I think it was the word of mouth of the artist that it was created on. So I and then they would give that information to the new dancer and the new generation that would be dancing that same work that was created 70 years ago. And I noticed that as each generation it loses a particular grit and impact. Yeah, like when you do a mature and solo, and it's been it's been and it was created in 1940, and so the dancers in 1950 and all this stuff earlier will do it better. And as each generation comes in and and the times change and society and culture changes, you know, what's important for that generation is reflected on that work, and sometimes there's a little bit of a disconnect.

unknown 27:41

I do.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Do you think that has something to do with the fact that companies are changing members a lot more rapidly now than they would have in that time frame, wouldn't they? I mean, you know, a company would have been selected and stay together for quite some time with a few rotations in and out, but it's different now, right?

Santa Fe’s Influence And Inner Voice

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I yeah, I I think the work loses its potency when the energy of the creator, the further you are from the energy of the creator, the more the work loses its potency because the interpretations of each dancer that has done that work is also influenced by what's happening in current culture. Although I had to say that we're kind of at an interesting point because the dancers now are superhuman, they can do more than the dancers that used to do it 50 years ago. But what is missing is a life force and a conviction. I was watching this one show with Jade Jameson. They were doing a piece by an artist called Zhao Le. Um, I forgot the name of the work, but they did it in Donnayu. They did it. It was Alvin Ely was on Donna U, right? Like if any of you remember who Donna U is still Donna U. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I saw it on a clip on Instagram, and one of them was my former rehearsal director, Deborah Chase Hicks, Buster Hart, she's no longer with us. And they did this work, and I was watching it through Instagram. I was blown away. I was blown away about it. It was about, you know, like homelessness and like how you know we're dealing with all this different, it's called shelter. It's a piece of called shelter. Homelessness and how we're not doing anything to resolve, resolve it. We're still not doing anything to resolve it, right? It's crazy. But when you when I saw that, it was in the 80s, I was like, they danced as eight days was their last day on earth. There was a conviction that was there that I feel like dancers nowadays are missing. But with me understanding that, I also am very much aware of what what the issue is. And so when I talked to the dancers, I said, I know you have Instagram, you have all this stuff, but you have to take the culmination of training and you work how many hours a week? Some of us are in the studio for 10, 20, 30, 40 hours a week. You know what I mean? I know 40 hours a week. Like some kids actually do that. It's a full-time job. They're there 80 hours at a minimum, maybe like 40 hours to 80 hours a month. I said, when you have learned and you have been trained for all that time, when you get to perform this work, I want to see the culmination of training. You're living out all of your training on stage for that moment. And so that's where I remind you of the effort and the time that you committed. And that's why I feel like when I talk to my dancers, and you understand that, there's never really any kind of hesitant hesitancy about approaching the stage. They just go quick. In fact, I saw that in the dress rehearsal when they were falling apart because closets were falling off of them. And I could tell they were upset that they did not have a good run. So when we did our circle before the premiere, I saw it in their eyes. I'm like, it's about to go down. We're doing this. And I love feeling that energy because I felt like they needed to make up for you know a bad, a bad run before the premiere, the world premiere. And when they when they danced it, I I I was looking in the back and I was in tears because I was like, that's what it's about. Taking your moment, and as a collective, you have this energy binding you together, and you're you're dancing and you're also inspiring the audience. It was about that for them. And obviously you felt that. Absolutely. Loves hearing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Well, one of the things I'm curious about too is that you know, you're dealing with pretty young people.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

You know, these are not like 17. They're 17 and above.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

You know, they well, I mean, there are the dancers that, you know, when I was referring to Alvin Haley, some of those dancers are in their 20s, 30s, and you know, and and older. So there's a lot of life experience in those dancers that your young people haven't quite had that chance to accumulate. And yet the sophistication of what they were able to convey, and I I think it challenges my ideas of what young kids are capable of. And I think nowadays kids are getting exposed to so much, so much earlier. And I was in a conversation just the other day um talking about when is the right time to introduce the idea of death uh uh to kids and mortality. And certainly, in a couple of the conversations I've had, certainly I just had a conversation with um Miranda Viscoli, who heads up an organization called New Mexicans to Prevent Gun Violence. And they have their students are building art pieces out of gun parts. A lot of the kids in this class have been exposed to gun violence of their own fellow students, et cetera, et cetera. So it's such a different world that we're living in now with kids access to everything. And I I feel like it's an it's an interesting time to introduce new traditions in terms of how we prepare these kids for the world. And I feel as like your dance approach and your choreography and just what you're teaching these kids is very consistent with that new way of teaching.

Community, Access, And New Season Plans

Person First, Dancer Second

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And look, it's it's not like then doing it on purpose is just happened to be a response the way we curate rehearsals and the way we we coach and inspire the dancers. You know, I also remind them too, like, you know, it's not really about death, but dancers have an expiration date. At some point, our bodies just can't do what they used to, you know, what we used to do. I'm 53 years old and I'm still able to do certain things, but not at the capacity of, you know, the way these kids can do it. So I tell them, I said, you know, you have this instrument, and I reminded you that I reminded you that yes, I want you to be in the moment, I want you to really give all of yourself in that moment because of the amount of work you put into your instrument, but also I want you to enjoy this time because although you're not thinking about it, you know, when you're sitting 35 and 36, things start falling apart. And so, like you enjoy this, they have all this collagen in your body, and you're able to bend backwards and and you're able to fall on the floor and not break a pelvis, shadow, you know, and go to the floor and then not bruise, you say, Well, I'm bruised, and then get back up the next day and then do it all over again for eight hours. Like, you know, I think the kids, you have to be wired a particular way to want to do this, especially dancers. But like I just say say that with any athlete, a figure skater, you know, like you know, I've been watching this, Ilya Melinen, who's the quad god now, who's doing more quads in the history of the sport, Simone Biles from gymnastics, you know, they're in there all the time pushing the boundaries. And I and I feel like I tell the I tell those stories to the kids, they failed multiple times. And I think I think the kids understand. So, what I what I do when it comes to failure, how I frame it for them is that it's okay. Like if I'm not even upset about it, you shouldn't be. And I'm the director, but learn from it and fix it, but don't attach yourself to oh, and and and kind of worry about it and kind of sulk about it. I tell them it's part of it's part of the process. And there are failures in that full-in piece. There are failures in there that I couldn't address and fix because we didn't have time, but we made it, we made it work. So I always remind the dancers that you know, like you had to have a bit of grit and the way you view what you're not doing, because there were times where like dancers were actually getting hurt in the not hurt, but they were so fatigued. I had one dancer that literally in the in the second week on Thursday, the fourth day of rehearsal, she had to step out because she was so exhausted. So I said, Here's some electrolytes, just go over here. But she didn't want to step out, she wanted to keep going. I said, I need you, I need for you to do this. You are not failing right now. Your body's telling you to rest, so rest and watch. And so I'd give them leeways and strategies to be able to understand you're only human. You push yourself, yes. But at the same time, also, like I want you to take what you can give your all. And then if if at a moment in time, if you feel like you failed and your body's giving out, I also allow for them to understand that's part of the process and there's nothing wrong. And so I think I think it's important as a director, but also as a mentor, to understand how to deal with these kids too, like with these young dancers. We're not really kids, they're younger dancers, they're like you're aspiring, but they they they had to also understand that they're not super that they can't be superhuman, that they can that their body is uh in a way an expiration day, you know, like with it with a process. And so uh we always try to make it as supportive as possible, and try to also uh not punish them. Like I I never I don't believe in punishing my dancers, I believe in empowering them, I believe in allowing them to see what they can do past their limit. You know, I always I always tell them, you think that you could only do this, but actually I see you do this, and here's the reasons why. And when I talk to them and they see, oh, oh, and they can have the bots, all of a sudden they have a strategy of to be able to go past where they think their limit is. And it's always a positive, a positive experience. We have our hardships, but we try to frame the way we view those hardships in a way where it's about the learning. And learning means you have to fail. It's part of it's part of who you are. And I think these different challenges, you know, it's like it's like teaching them these life lessons, but through the art from advance, and it's happening in real time. And so I think that's why I I feel I love what I do. There's some challenge in it, but also been mentoring and teaching and choreographing now for a very long time. And so I try to take that's just one thing that I did say to myself a long time ago, because I was also fell victim to some horrible processes. Like scoreographers were so lean to me. Some of them were racist towards me, you know, some of them would shame my body, some of them would tell me I wasn't tall enough. I was too bent like a gymnast on the dancer. I mean, there were so many things thrown at me, or I would work really hard on a process, and then you're not, and then they would say, Great, great, great, and then I would come in, they would come in a week later, like that's not so good at all. And I would get so good, like it's just emotional abuse, you know? And I promised myself that I would never ever do that to my dancers because I know how that felt like for myself, and I was not gonna pass that neurosis on to the next generation. So it's a constant battle of looking at my own self to make sure that I'm treating them right, but also not treating them so right that I relinquish my own control. I still have to make sure that we are approaching, you know, uh the company work at a particular standard and the level that we have set for ourselves at Geisty and Celter is very high.

Gratitude, Support, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah. Well, again, a very important thing that you've just underscored is that what one of the themes that we're exploring in this season is legacy, but not just legacy like you know, what we leave behind, but sometimes it's an interruption of a negative legacy. And having come through the dance universe myself, that all of that negative programming and that way, that everything you just described is one of the main reasons I think my family discouraged me from becoming part of the dance world. It's a it was a vicious, especially for classical ballet. And, you know, especially with the body shaming, especially with just the pushing yourself beyond the limits, but without any of the positive support. And, you know, the combination of interrupting that legacy and also interrupting another thing I was thinking about when you were talking about is we live in a world where, you know, HGTV shows you how 20 minutes while you were away and your house gets completely redone. And the focus is so much on the final result and does not show the messy process to get there. And these kids are living at a time of supreme is it's everything is experiment.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Yeah, you know, they only show the great stuff, but they have no idea what it took for them to get that picture. Or, you know, I have friends that curate and have millions of followers. I have friends in the dance where they have millions of followers, they curate the experience of their Instagram, they will never show the ugly stuff, yeah. And I'm like, you're not gonna show that? I think that's I think that's interesting. And no, I would never do that because it's not their quote unquote brand, right? And so people don't seem to understand that what they're seeing there is not real, it's curated specifically to promote an idea that although it is marketable and fun, and and people are buy into it, it's not authentic because you're not seeing how they're getting that particular video or product or image when they post it on their social media feed. So it's interesting because about ballet, I was a little bit controversial because I was one of the first people to say, if you did class and you're taking ballet, you're a ballet dancer. Not a ballerina, because a ballerina is a particular level, but you're a ballet dancer. And that used to upset people in the ballet world. And I'm like, well, what's the matter with calling somebody who takes a ballet class a ballet dancer? I'm not holding them a ballerina because a ballerina is on a whole other level. I'm not insulting the art form in that way. I'm just calling it, and I say that's the case. If you're taking a ballet class, you're gonna be you're a hip hop dancer, you're a ballet dancer. And I would say to them, here's the thing. I could care less about how you're built, the color of your skin. I care more about your approach to this art form, which is unforgiving, because it teaches discipline and tenacity. But here's the thing that I always sell them it doesn't matter to me what your body type is. If the ballet vocabulary and vernacular speaks clearly in your body, it's a big win for you. Because some of my dancers, although they are not the ideal body type, when they take ballet and they come to my class and I teach company class, they speak it so clearly that you have no choice but to pay attention to them. And I think it's breaking norms. I have a friend of mine who I danced with uh with the Philadelphia Dance Company, she danced with Alvin Ely for a long time. Her name is Hope Whigan, and you know, she's shorter, uh she has a shaved head and she's built more stocky. And in fact, she auditioned for Judith Jameson eight times, and she wouldn't gate her because that you need to lose weight. But Hope, oh my goodness, when she dances, power, great, sophistication. There is, you know, her lines are exquisite. She can do anything, she could turn, she could move fast. So I mean, everything about her, there was a refinement in a finesse, and you and a command in her presence that you have no choice but to be a senator. In fact, she won the Bessie. The Bessie Award is like one of those, one of one of the New York dance community nominates certain, you know, choreography and dancers, and she actually got for a standing performer. And that was for the Philadelphia Dance Company. She wasn't even hired by Alvin Eaton. And even after winning the Bessie, Juliet still would not hire her. But the New York Times did a piece on her in 2002 about basically breaking body body norms that someone like this could break the norm where she is recognized. There are exceptions made for her because she can do these incredible things with an unideal body type, but she was able to do it. And so I always tell the kids like, you know, like she always worked, you know, so hard and making sure that her technique was as refined as possible and working against a body that does not receive the information naturally. She had to really work on that. And she triumphed over it. She became a principal with Alpin A. In fact, she's choreographing for them now many different pieces. So I always tell the kids it's about the clarity of what you do with your instrument and not what you've been given genetically. So trying to change and reframe the way that that works for them, and it's been helping a lot because instead of the kids seeing flaws, they're seeing possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yeah, that's so beautiful. So, as a choreographer, I'm curious. So, you just mentioned using your body as a dancer, as the instrument. And then the choreographer who is actually creating that's like the difference between a composer and a musician. Speak to being a choreographer a little bit, because I'm one again, one of the themes that I'm trying to promote here is like how we can become the choreographers of our own life. So, what are the components to being a choreographer and a curator?

SPEAKER_00 45:16

First and foremost, obviously, to become a choreographer, yeah, to be a dancer. Yeah. I think in my opinion, at least, okay, so I'm gonna speak my own truth because there are a lot of choreographers out there that don't have dance experience, but I'm gonna speak my own process and speaking solely for myself and not for not for a general group of people. I started late when I was 19, and I was supposed to go to the University of Washington. I was there, no, I was there on a full school ship to become an engineer. I decided that I didn't want to do calculus backwards. So I ended up I ended up uh taking, I dropped the class, I said I don't want to do this. I ended up taking a dance one-on-one class and an art one-on-one class. And actually, after taking one semester each, you know, like they both were like, Do you want to major in this in this particular discipline? And I'm like, I'm not sure. I went and saw a dance concert by Israeli choreographer, his name is Z Got Tiner, so it was called Dance for Seven, and it was to this a ceremony of Carol's by adventure in Britain, but it was not a Christmas piece. It was about death. Oh, I mean, evil when I like talk about it, I get TRI because that single performance single-handedly changed my life. I'm like, I gotta do this. And so from then on, that's what I, you know, I decided to pursue. Fast forward, right? So I danced for the Repertory Dance Theater, which is a repertory company, the Philadelphia Dance Company, which is another repertory company, Ballet Pacifico, which is a repertory ballet company that did, you know, knockbackers, some classical work, but mostly contemporary work, and then the California Ballet. And then I also danced with the National Cryers Initiative, which is another repertory company that is assembled in the summer in California. So if you look at all of my company experience, I was a rep dancer, which means I was really good at a lot of different things, but a master of none. Like where if you look at somebody from the gram dancer, they are masters of the gram technique. If you look at somebody at Alvin Aly, they are masters of the Horton technique. If somebody danced with the Jose Lamon Company, they are masters of the Lamon vernacular. I was a rep dancer and I did all of that. And so the way I work as a choreographer is the influences of my life experience, both as a as a rep dancer, but also the thing that's so interesting is that I actually choreographed mathematically. And I wish that you have a visual of this because I could show you my book, and this is like all my projects. I work like an engineer. Oh wow. You see the numbers? Yeah. When you look at the different patterns, I have a notebook and I literally work like an engineer. I diagram my movement patterns, I can't diagram my movement. I videotape it, you know. If I I have a phrase that I want to create, and I work with this book to try to make sure that I I put things in order. I sometimes will count music, sometimes I won't. It depends. But the biggest thing for me as a choreographer is always coming from my life experience. And recently I've been researching more about my Filipino identity. So the next work that I'm doing is about this energy called Kaua, which is the love and the soul and the warmth of my island people. And so trying to figure out Filipino music with that, infusing it with more modern music. So I'm doing those things. But as a choreographer, I'm speaking my truth and my life experience as a dancer and the aspects that I that I draw upon, music, life, believe it or not, being in Santa Fe inspires me. I go outside and I feel the energy of this place. In fact, it's so funny because when I moved here in 2017 from Los Angeles, I had to fire my agent. My agent was like, if you move out of here, you're done. You were, you, you, your career is done. Guess what? I moved here to Santa Fe, and my commissions and my work quadruple. Why? Because I am no longer sitting in traffic four hours a day. I took that time and took a deep breath and really, really journaled, figured out what I really liked, not trying to be trendy, like everybody was trying to be trendy in LA, figure out who I was as a choreographer, that person in me as a dancemaker. And those are the aspects that have guided my process. Although my process definitely is influenced by, I was also a gymnast for a long time, for eight years before I became a dancer. There's a physicality and a drive, there's a passion and a fire in my work. I'm also very much sensitive. Um, a lot of the times, like people are like, How do you understand, you know, how to core up on female identifying dancers? Like, I am not at all ashamed or shy to access my feminine side and access the romantic capacity of me and how I listen to music. And then the physical, the physicality part, more male energy is the athleticism. So I combine those two aspects through that mathematical mind, but also having having an open heart, having an empathetic capacity to my being, and allowing for all those factors to come into play when I create. So always when I do something, always speaks my truth in that moment. I never allow a trend or or something that's hot right now to influence my work. I mean, I'm aware of it, yes. I'm aware of what's happening in the world. The name of the company is Zeitgeist, it's just under the time. So I have to be aware of that. But I always try to speak my truth, and it's if it's been working for me.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

So I want to go back when you were said that you are a repertory dancer and you're learning all these different techniques, gram technique, um, Alden Aly, whatever. Would you say that those are kind of like learning different languages and that you kind of incorporate vernaculars, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And I think because I learned so many different pieces of work with different styles and the processes of all these choreographers were so different. Like I said, some brilliant, some inspiring, some unhealthy. I take all of that and formulate my own process. And the weaving piece really was a reflection of how I work. It was mathematic, there's pattern, there's emotion, there's storytelling, there's like that, that it was like almost as if I unleashed everything that I was about in that work. And and you told me you you felt the truth there. You felt uh you felt, and that's because that's where it comes from for me. Like I never ever come from a place that I create trying to prove something. I used to do that when I was younger and nobody heard me. It was only when I started really accepting myself and understanding who I am and really digging into my inner voice and not letting the outside noise dictate or or run or drive me. I it is it's like I trusted myself, and that's what Santa Fe has done. So I gotta get emotional thinking about it. It's like that's what Santa Fe has done for me. It has it has made me quieter to be able to listen to this energy inside of me and this voice inside of me so that I could access that more when I create. When I was in LA, I was so distracted by trend, and so everybody's trying to be something, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it would, it used to upset me. I'm like, why are people doing this? Like, I don't, who are you? You know what I mean? And I would meet quote unquote friends. It wasn't until I got here where I really, really had a chance to understand how to slow down and to really understand who I am, and not Francisco, the persona, Francisco, the career, nothing to do with that. It's like everything that's coming out of me now, where I teach her, it's just speaking my truth.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Well, what I what is so clear to me is that when you have that space to go into that deeply personal, you're tapping into not only the deeply personal, but the deeply universal, which is again why it works. And this is again the the it's such a such a perfect analogy for the purpose for this whole podcast, both season one and season two, is trying to show the general public various different ways that by accessing our most deeply personal self, we have that universal experience. And artists provide for us so many different pathways to give us trailheads on how we actually pro access that. And one might think that it's a very me, me, me, because you're talking about my truth and my this, but it's such the opposite of that when you compare it to like the me, me, me of an L kind of.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

You're going in to tap into universal collective energy. Yeah. And that has been the driving force. It's so funny that you're seeing that because when I hear you talk about it, I completely understand where you're coming from. I think what happens is that as human beings with social media, we are conditioned to think a particular way. They that we have to be this and that, that we have to do this at this time, that you have to be this way by this age, and et cetera. Like we've been conditioned to think a certain way. And so by being here in Santa Fe, I have learned to really not allow for that outside noise to to drive me, but to find my truth. Now, when I started doing that, I got scared. Why? Because I didn't I didn't know who I was, I had no idea. And but all that was driving me was I knew that I loved dance, I knew that I loved music, I knew that I loved to create. That was those are the three things I started with. And then from then on, you know, like I just understanding, okay, here's how I work, here's my processes. I used to be so judgmental about how I work, and I don't do that. And I'm like, wait, no, no, I can't say I didn't do that. I had to be open to that. And this weaving piece lineage really tested me because, again, it's not normally my wheelhouse. And yet it allowed for me to create a work that was potent, that was emotional, that was visually enticing, that there was architecture to that. So it really took all of my experience and what I've learned and showcased that. And because of that, it has now allowed for me to lean in even more about who I am and not being apologetic about it. And I and then what I have learned is that when I speak my truth, people listen. When I try to be somebody I'm not, nobody cares.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Yeah. Well, and it takes a lot of courage and you're role modeling courage and courage, which you know has its root in the French word que, which means heart. And so it's being very heartful, mindful, heartful. And uh you're just doing it in spades. So that's I knew why I wanted to talk to you. I mean, you're you epitomize everything that what that we're trying to demonstrate here. And all of those kids, those Zeitgeist, I call them kids, young people and dancers are benefiting from that. And Santa Fe is so lucky to have you.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Thanks. I do want to say, I do want to say that we reached a pinnacle point in this, in our in our company existence here, because um, I want to announce that we have our Lensic dates. We are finally performing at the Lensic. Our tech rehearsals of July 1st are August 1st is the date. And so we have worked so hard to get that, because you know, like that's kind of like the pinnacle, right? Because that's where everybody, that's where all the major dance companies perform. And not seeing that performing at the Hispanic Cultural Center was not significant, because it was, in fact, it was the right venue for this lineage piece. And then we may had many beautiful performances at the National at the NDI Dance Bonds, at the National Dance Institute Dance Bonds, and their their black box space is also very magical. But I think this is an important hallmark for us because not that we don't we've never, you know, like you know, like you have a particular goal that you want to accomplish, and and I feel like by being in that space, I feel like we've really arrived, you know. And so we're really excited to create, you know, this new work. It's going to be three new works, four, no, four new works, and then two works from fellows that we had to still select for our New Century Dance Project Fellowship, which we had over 250 applicants from all over the world. I mean, I'm talking Mexico, Paris, France, Italy. Of course, here local, local um dance makers in New Mexico and in the US, Canada, Israel, like from Batheba, there are some artists. So it's gonna be a tough decision by my panel to figure out who those artists are. But we're trying to make sure also that this year an initiative to really involve more local New Mexico dancers to be part of our organization because I want to be one of those organizations that really give opportunities to dancers here. So for our professional company that we're bringing in this time, we have about half the company is from local New Mexico. Either from Africa here, and the other half are from New York or LA. So we want to make sure that we really this place has done me so uh has done amazing things for me individually. I have to give it back. So we're very conscientious of that. And yeah, so we're making it a point to really make sure that we integrate the talent here to be part of our company, and then and then the talent from outside, they it's it's such a beneficial exchange because the dancers here can see where they can go, and then the dancers from other places can feel that energy that I am so consumed and and inspired by. So I think it's gonna be a really exciting season to see.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

Well, it absolutely will. And one of the things I was really impressed by again in that dress rehearsal or the rehearsal that I saw was there were some dancers there that had just come in from all over the world, really. Yeah. And so it's another way that you're enriching Santa Fe is by bringing these people, these dancers from all over the world, and they bring a little bit of their multiculturalism to our Santa Fe, which is part of the reason Santa Fe is so magical, because we have our own diversity here of culture that goes back, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And then you're bringing in these new, really top-notch, not just dancers, because the people that you are forming are are whole people. They're not just dancers and they are bringing their whole selves here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

I always I always say person first, dancer second. That's how we nurture them. We because without the person in a dancer being our third, the dancer don't know, they don't know where they are. There's no conviction. So, like, we have to nurture them always. Their person within them is the priority. The dancing is is underneath that. So, not the other way around. The other uh the other thing that I wanted to say too, like, it's just like I'm I cannot wait to to invite you again to another rehearsal to a whole different slew of pieces and have you see the performance again. It's like gonna be so exciting. We're really excited for the season. I think last year was a banner year for us, but you know, it's like unleashing what we've learned, what I've learned from that very difficult and challenging process. And now seeing more things after that. The pieces that are gonna be created now are going to reflect that growth.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

So well, thank you for your inspiration. Thank you for the invitation. I will definitely be there. Thank you for the inspiration, and thank you for this new legacy that you're creating around the dance community in Santa Fe. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

I'm not both thank you so and thank you for giving me an opportunity to be part of this incredible podcast. I mean, it's just like talking about our process, talking about the truth, this collective energy that binds us all, that sometimes we don't understand how to uh nurture and access. But Santa Fe has definitely made a huge difference in the way I see that collective energy and the way I access and relate and learn from it. So, and I I cannot even believe that you said but that you said that because I thought like maybe I'm crazy, but the mere fact that you're saying that, I'm like, wow, there is really something special in this place, and people understand this language. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Thank you. All right, well, uh, we will be back in touch soon. I want I want to get that rehearsal on my calendar. And thanks again for joining me, and I will see you soon. Yes, absolutely. Okay, a bite. Thank you so much. Take care, bye-bye. So, thanks for joining us today. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.artbridgenm.org and thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.