ArtStorming the Art of Remembrance: Harry Weil

A cemetery can be a punchline, a sanctuary, a history lesson, and a living arts venue all at once, if we let it. I’m joined by Harry Weil, vice president of education and public programs at Brooklyn’s historic Green-Wood Cemetery, to talk about how a place built for the dead is quietly becoming one of New York City’s most surprising spaces for culture, community, and honest conversations about mortality.

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Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Transcript

Big Questions About Creativity And Legacy

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside? Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Art Storming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Art Storming, The Art of Remembrance. So most people see a cemetery as a place for the end of the story. But at Brooklyn's historic Greenwood Cemetery, it's a place where the conversation is just beginning. Founded in 1838, actually by my Pierpont ancestors, Greenwood was originally designed as a rural escape for the living, a park-like destination that eventually actually inspired the creation of Central Park and Prospects Park. So today we're stepping into 478 acres of deep time with Harry Weil, the vice president of education and public programming at Greenwood Cemetery. Harry's at the helm of a massive cultural resurgence overseeing nearly 300 programs a year that bring 30,000 people through the gates for everything from rooftop film screenings and gay house artist residencies to major interactive installations. So whether you're an artist, a history buff, or just someone who's curious about what we leave behind, this conversation will perhaps change the way you look at the landscape of the afterlife. Here's Harry. I am heartstorming today with Harry Weill of uh Greenwood Cemetery, and you're the program director, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, vice president of education and public programs.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Okay, great. So I just have to tell you why I'm so excited about talking to you. Because Art of Remembrance started as an idea about more than 35 years ago when both my parents died and blah, blah, blah. But because my mother is a Pierre Pont, and so we have a little bit of history with you there at Greenwood Cemetery. And when my mom died, sadly died, the family really wanted to take her back east. There are two family cemeteries. One is Greenwood, of course, and one is in New Jersey, a much smaller, intimate family thing. And the funny part of this story is that my sister wanted my mom to stay here in Santa Fe. And the rest of my family wanted her to go back east. And so they couldn't decide, I think, between whether she was going to go to Greenwood or whether she was going to go to the smaller family plot in Far Hills. So they ended up sending her back to my sister. And my sister had held back some of the creme's because she knew that mom wanted to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, and happy was cremees too, because if it was like, oh, they sent the whole casket back.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Oh gosh, no, no, no. So it was the cremenes. So mom had been divided. And then it's five years later that my family finally figured out that my mother should be out here in Santa Fe. And so she ends up getting the rest of her ashes get sprinkled right a view from my window. I can see where her cremees were distributed. But anyway, that's just one of many reasons. Greenwood has been in my family lore for remember. And the fact that you have a residency program is so exciting to me. And I'm going to stop talking. And I just want to hear everything about all the programs that you're up to and the way that you've brought Greenwood Cemetery into relevance for our time now.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And okay, but there's one thing, and I love humor and I love being funny, and I love when you can combine it with the macabre and you can talk about death. So there's just something when you started the conversation, we're like, yada, yada, my parents died. You know, like, and so I always wonder because, you know, my my father's deceased, my mother's still living. But, you know, when I talk about my dad's death, you know, I just had a coworker literally actually this early this morning. Uh her father passed away, and she came into the office because they're being buried at Greenwood, and she's telling the story, and she's like, I got a good story to tell you about how I found out how my dad. And it's just like there's something about when you can inject a little bit of humor. So whether it's in the immediate or sort of, you know, months or years later, there's such a wonderful way that humor can, I don't want to say humor can heal. That sounds like the name of a book, but you know, I mean there is some sort of truth to that. Like there's some sort of like that deep-seated psychology where it allows you to use humor as this sort of defense. And I think it's wonderful because I love seeing that in other people. Um, so in that moment, I thought that was great.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Well, I mean, to uh to that point, part of why I'm doing all of this is because I'm really trying to normalize death, which you would think would be not a hard thing to do given that it's a given. But we treat it like it's this sort of hot potato thing. Maybe we did less so in the in the Victorian era, but certainly now it's still this hot potato and we're supposed to get very morose and serious about it. But my whole mission is to kind of treat death as an extension of life. And if we are creative and humorous in our living portion of our lives, then our exit should be treated with equal flair, finesse, humor, whatever is part of your living expression. So that's kind of another reason that we're doing all of this. But I appreciate your, you know, people can sometimes, I've lost my parents so long ago, and both of them were such outrageous stories. I've incorporated them so much into my monologue, my way of living, that people can get sometimes a little shocked because my mother was killed in a skydiving accident. That's pretty shocking. And so I can be really cavalier about it because it's been such a long time. But and people are, you know, I sort of have to remember that when people hear that for the first time, it can kind of take them off guard. Likewise, my dad died of AIDS. That's not a very usual way to go either. And so I've gotten so that it's such a part of my life. I talk about it very easily. But I would imagine that I want to again switch it back to you that you're in the business of life and death. So you have a lot of different stories that you've heard.

A Cemetery Built For The Living

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah. And actually that's a great transition because I think, you know, when I mention, like casually in a conversation, oh, my dad's deceased, like there, there's always this like look on someone's face because they're like, how do I answer? How do I, how do I follow up with that? And usually, you know, people's first response is, I'm sorry. I'm like, well, you didn't do it. Like, I don't think you're the one who gave them that heart attack. Um, but you know, it is also with working at a cemetery, actually, too, is when I tell people that, oh, I'm a curator or I, you know, I work in public programming. Oh, and by the way, it's at a cemetery. There's always this look of, you know, like, wait, at a what do you mean you're doing that at a cemetery? Like, how do you explain that? And sometimes I wish I had a normal job, you know, like when people who say they do finance and, you know, you just glaze over and you're like, okay, I I don't want to ask any more questions about that, like that would be easier. But um, I always have to go in and sort of start with this explanation that Greenwood is not your typical cemetery, right? You know, so aside from being, you know, one of the early rural cemeteries founded by James Evelyn Pierpont, uh, 1838 was sort of our opening. Our first burial was not until 1841, 1842. It's a huge cemetery, 478 acres. It's massive. So, you know, larger than most cemeteries that people encounter in across America, even in New York City. We do have some other big ones like Woodlawn and up Mount Auburn and Laurel Hill, but Greenwood is one of the largest and it's spectacular. Um, but it wasn't in the middle of a city. It was in the middle of nowhere. And it was intended to be this place far removed from the city. Keep the dead away from the living. Like, you know, people up until then were being buried in their church lots, which were right on top of where they were living too. And people, what's that expression? You know, cheek to jowl. Like everyone was on the living and the dead were on top of each other. So this idea of get the dead as far away as possible, but it could be beautiful and it could be lovely, and it could be a park-like setting. And in many ways, it was also the first, you know, museum. So Greenwood has always has part of its lore, as you know, sort of all the other great rural cemeteries. It was a place where the living were to go. It was a place where you can be with the dead, but it could also be a place of leisure and socializing. And so there's these amazing photographs of the early years of the cemetery of people picnicking, um, or people just walking through the cemetery looking at the monuments, or even um some early Curior and Ives um prints that come out, you know, from the 1860s and the 1870s. And they're some of my favorite photographs because you're looking at people who are looking at the monuments. So you're sort of watching as they're sort of taking in the spectacle of the cemetery. So I always say that what we do at Greenwood with our public programming, where we have over 30,000 people who are coming to, I would say on last count, we had about 300 public programs each year. That doesn't include our school programs, um, that it is part of a long, rich tradition. It's a tradition that got lost in the 20th century, you know, around the time of the first and the second world war, where things were shifting and people's perspectives um to cemeteries. But in many ways, we're going back to our roots, we're going back to our origins, where we want people to feel comfortable in the land or the city of the dead, uh, which is the cemetery. But at the same time, too, it's a place where you can take in the beauty of nature. You can look at these beautiful monuments. And death is not far away. Like you're you're you cannot go to a cemetery and not be reminded of death. But death doesn't have to be this gruesome, awful, Halloween, scary movie. I would like to say party city type thing. Um but for me, what's really great about the programming that I do agree, or what I get excited about the most, is that we get to have these conversations about death and dying. And it is so expansive that it's not just this one thing that, oh, grief looks like this or grief looks like that. But rather it can be all of these many different things. It can, memorialization can look many different ways, and that there's this wonderful way that not just Greenwood, but I think like through the programming allows us to have those conversations. So it's not just this singular definition. And we did this wonderful art installation in our catacombs with Janine Antoni, who is one of my favorite artists. You know, she came into the scene in the early 90s and we did this installation with her in the catacombs, and she was very resistant to say, I'm not trying to tell people with my art, this is what grief should be or this is how they should feel, but rather it allows them to open up within themselves to have a conversation. And I realized that all the artists that we've worked with have also towed that party line of like, I don't want to prescribe for people how they should feel about death and dying. It is such a unique thing. And so we were talking about humor. And so some people can find the humor in it. Um, for other people, it is a very serious thing. It is a thing that is not to be taken lightly. And so we have to leave room for all of those things. So I don't know if that's the best introduction I've given to Greenwood. And I'm sorry if that I thought I'm trying to put together too many different threads there.

Deep Time And The Myth Of Forever

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Well, no, I'm gonna add another thread, which is the fact that you you are also kind of an arboretum. And so the life cycle is constantly there. And the fact that you are as committed to preserving the natural um aspects of the park as well as the monuments that are within the park, it's a sort of a another beautiful overlay to what you all are up to there.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, and there's this word that um or phrase that I was exposed to only a couple of years ago. It's called deep time. So this idea of thinking about time that, you know, we can think about it seasonally, and you're totally right. I agree with, I mean, you see it in the changes of the season each year. You know, right now um we are in winter, and so we know this is a dormancy period. So it's not necessarily just about death, but it looks like that there is nothing blooming. There is like this fresh coat of snow on the ground. There's this sense of silence now in the cemetery, is not active or buzzing with people, you know, casual visitors or programming. But there's also on a geological scale. So Greenwood was part of the glacial moraine in the last ice age. And so, you know, Greenwood's landscape, unlike Central Park and Prospect Park, uh, which was created and carved out. And um, oh my gosh, I should know his name off the Olmstead. There we go, take in a second. You know, Olmsted really like moved, I mean, he moved the earth to create Central and Prospect Park, whereas at Greenwood, the landscape is natural. So when you come here, the highest point here is the highest natural point. It's because when these Ice Age, um, the Ice Age and the glaciers were retreating, they're leaving behind all of these rocks. So, you know, when they're digging the foundations for new graves or digging for new interments, they're taking up all of these large glacial, I mean, thousands of years old. And so it's interesting to think that death sort of lingers in that deep time that goes back tens of thousands of years, but then we also witness it in the changing of the seasons too, and sort of honoring that because in some ways that everything is always changing. And you know, we think of cemeteries as these permanent spots, right? With these permanent spaces, like I will always go here and I will be able to memorialize my loved one. I will be always be able to go see mom or dad. But things under the earth begin to move and shift. And we know that the earth is constantly moving and shifting, and caskets will eventually begin to break down, and the body will begin to change and morph in many ways. And headstones do fall over and they get buried by the earth. So even this idea of forever places we think cemeteries are, they're not. The landscape of Greenwood is always changing. And I look to those early photographs, you know, the ones where it's like, you know, seeing the visitors in the 19th century and the big skirts and hats, you know, visiting the site. And many of those gravestones don't exist in their current form. They were in marble. And so they're beginning to decay or have gone missing completely. We don't see the inscriptions anymore. So everything is moving and changing at the cemetery at very different cycles.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, I have a technical question because of an episode I did a couple of weeks ago, I learned that some cemeteries have vaults, which was intended to kind of keep the casket from moving and shifting with the earth. Does Greenwood have vaults? The underground vaults, not, you know, mausoleums.

Green Burial Organic Reduction And Cost

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, there are some too. So actually, um, the Roosevelt family lot where D Theodore Roosevelt's mother and first wife are buried, and they actually died on the same day, tragically. So it's a it's a vault, and the door has been covered over with dirt now. But there's a vault where all the family's coffins are kept. And then they sort of stylistically put all of the tombstones of the family members, and there's over a dozen of them up at the site, too. Yeah, so there's a number of those in the cemetery, but also eventually those walls will cave in, and there's long-term management that we can't maintain all of them. But like eventually, like those walls will, and again, the dirt will begin to shift. And so they're permanent. And I I if no one can see this, but I'm putting them in the quotes. They're permanent to an extent that, you know, someone's maintaining them. But at a certain point, people are no longer going to maintain them and they're going to sort of themselves not be as permanent.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Well, and there's a new trend, isn't there, towards um, I guess there are lots of different euphemisms for it, but green burial and human composting. I guess, I mean, it doesn't sound very attractive when you put there's some other prettier uh terms for it now. But is that a trend that that um Greenwood is embracing?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, so right now we're researching um how we can do natural organic reduction. So that's something that's happening in the West Coast. Um, and it is slowly sort of picking up speed across the United States. And Greenwood hopes to be a site where we offer this as an option. So you, you know, uh cremation is very popular at the cemetery. We have a crematory. Uh every day we are cremating uh individuals, but natural organic reduction is where the body is, for lack of a better phrase, turned into compost and soil that eventually can be used to help with fertilizing and the planting of trees. And you mentioned that we are an arboretum too. So it allows those who want to become part of that cycle. So it doesn't have the sense of permanence. And again, putting that in quotes, as you know, burying someone in an urn uh with a tombstone. Um, so you know, the the physical presence, the physicality of death or the marker of death and memorialization is certainly changing. Whereas there used to be the emphasis was on this permanent, this permanence. And now eventually that compost will eventually begin to decompose and become part of the soil. And so in many ways, it's not having that remain, that that that tangible thing becomes less tangible.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Yeah. Well, along those same lines, one of the things that I heard when I was started thinking about this project many years ago was that, or I think somehow it's in the family uh conversation that we you were we were running out of space at Greenwood for our family, and that I think I was the last person, I'm the oldest grandchild. And I think that there was there had been spot designated for me, but none of my younger cousins or siblings. And um, but with these new technologies or these new traditions kind of happening, if you can be composted, then I could still be on the family hill and not necessarily in a coffin or with a headstone. So I mean, I must it must be helping a little bit the fact that there's a finite amount of acreage as huge as it is. And so the number of families and the number of people, because of the prestige and the tradition, whatever, who want to be um in Greenwood as the final resting place, this must be affording you more options to accommodate more.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

I love that you call them guests or visit there's there were some permanent um we call them permanent residents.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Permanent residents. Yeah, it's awesome.

Day Of The Dead Community Ofrenda

SPEAKER_00 19:06

The expression I've heard about Greenwood is we're the largest gated community in New York City. Um, it's interesting, and as you were saying that, you know, something that we think about a lot here at Greenwood is how do we allow people to have connections with the cemetery even if you don't have a family member buried here, or even if yourself don't plan to be buried here? And it and something we wrestled with in a few ways, you know, one is this idea is like how can you, you know, it's easy to have these conversations about death and dying when you know where mom and dad are buried and you can easily go to them. But what happens when you no longer live um in that part of the country? What if you've moved across the world and you don't have that tangible connection to death? Because that's the easiest tangible connection to death is you know going to a cemetery, visiting a loved one. So what happens when you don't have that connection? And I think, you know, our death education programs, which I could talk about more, and also I think our arts programming too, which is an extension of our death education, allows people to think about their loved ones, to memorialize them in a way when you cannot be physically close to their remains or their memorial. But then at the cemetery, too, it's like how do we make those connections go deeper? And for us, you know, every year we do a community ofrenda. So for Day of the Dead, um, in our historic chapel, we commission a local artist to create this large-scale um ofrenda or altar where not only can it be a celebration of Day of the Dead, but anyone who wants to come in can memorialize the loved one. So whether they are buried at Greenwood or not, it becomes this opportunity for this communal memorial. And what was so important is the Sunset Park community, one of the largest Latin American communities, um, predominantly from Mexico, uh, in New York City, many of those individuals, when we first started doing the altar, what became apparent was that many of those individuals cannot go back to celebrate this holiday because their loved ones live, you know, their loved ones, their departed loved ones are in Mexico or another part of Latin America. So, how can the cemetery be of service to those communities to still take part in this tradition and still be able to feel that they can have a connection to those loved ones who they may never see? And there were there was this, you know, um uh one of the people we worked with one year was like this sentiment of they may never see or step into their homeland again. They may never see the land of their ancestors, of their parents to go back to their grave. So, how can we offer that opportunity at Greenwood? And we're not just doing it for the community that normally celebrates Day of the Dead, but for anyone who wants to come in. And that's for me was really important about this celebration is that we're working with the local community, you know. We're working with artists where this is part of their tradition. But to the larger community, like how can we discover new languages for memorializing our loved ones, for dealing with our grief? And, you know, not to say day of the dead is the only way, but it's again one of those ways where we can teach and allow people to have an understanding about how they can process their grief. And that grief is this thing that doesn't just happen at the moment of death, but months and years later, you can still revisit it. So my favorite thing is when I go to see the old friend, and you know, part, you know, with my team, like every morning someone has to go and put the candles on and clean up. And there are photographs of those who have recently died, and there are photographs of those who have obviously died 30, 40, 50 years ago. And that person is still mourning. That person still wants that opportunity to memorialize that loved one. And so I love this idea that it it's, you know, talking about time again is that it it becomes the cemetery becomes this wonderful way to mark that time.

Memorial Art That Asks You To Act

SPEAKER_01 22:58

That's so incredible. Same now, tell me much more about the arts program and how that was conceived of, how people participate, just all of it. I want to hear all of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Oh, you want to hear all of it. So it's really funny. And you can say, no, I'm telling you too much. Um I can I can talk a lot. And so, you know, you may have to cut me off, or we'll do a part two. So my background is in uh art history. So I got my PhD in art history and my focus was performance art. And it was a very deathy topic, actually. So I was dealing with performance art. So in a nutshell, performance art in the 60s and 70s was never intended um to be saved, was never intended to be the museum. It was these radical practices. I mean, sometimes artists would just go, you know, one of my favorites is they would go and play a violin on the street corner in Soho, and their other friend would wrap them up in string. And that was the performance. And if we don't, and without this one photograph that was taken this one time, this thing would not exist in memory. So what happens when these relics sort of enter into the museum when they become collected or when they get reperformed? Like, and I started thinking about them as a ghosting, not in our traditional way of ghosting when, you know, your hinge date, but like there's this ghosting that happens of the performance. Like, how does the performance linger on? How do we memorialize the performance that did happen? But then if we want to create it. And that, you know, the first draft of my dissertation, I opened, and you know, I wish I it has to be saved somewhere because I eventually decided not to go with the whole ghosting thing because I was like, oh, I'm going down a road that I don't think I want to. But this idea, like, what do what do these ghosts want from us? It was sort of this question I asked. I started with like, what is the what do the ghosts of the past want from us? And what is it that they demand of us somehow? Um, and do they demand us to just look upon them, to recreate them? And so it's something that sort of has lingered in my work is this idea of like, how do we deal with the past and sort of reviving it? And I was adjuncting and working a bunch of random jobs, and I was taking my students to the cemetery because one course I was teaching was uh art in New York City. So I was like, we should explore art in all of its forms. So not just the white walls of the galleries and the museums, but where are other places we encounter art? So I was like, hey, this is technically the first, you know, like museum in New York City before the Met or the Brooklyn Museum was founded. You had Greenwood Cemetery, some of the top architects and designers of the time are making this artwork. So I was taking my students here, and the person who had the job before me was like, I'm about to leave. And I know they want someone with some arts background. They really want someone who can take the arts programming to the next level. Uh, mind you, I had not curated ever before this time. I had never run a public program. I really was just an adjunct professor. So they took this chance on me. And it's been almost 10 years later now. And for me, I know it's great. I mean, this is this is sort of one of these crazy stories of like, how did you land this job? And it was just like, sometimes it's true, it's the right place at the right time. And that's what happened here. And so I took the position, I mean, totally out of my wheelhouse, everything. So a lot of it was working with the right partners, talking to the right people, getting advice and guidance on how to build this programming. And since art was so close to me, I really wanted to make sure that arts programming was part of it. It couldn't be the only thing because we wanted to have as expansive as an audience as possible. And especially in New York City, where you can encounter and engage art almost anywhere. The cemetery was a good opportunity for it, but that couldn't be the only audience. So, you know, it was important to also work with rooftop films to do these be part of their summer of film screening series, to do concerts in our catacombs. So we do, when I say arts programming, it's everything here at Greenwood, from variety arts, a sort of circus entertainment, to films and classical music and also contemporary music as well. But when it comes to the art art itself, the first project we did was we worked with Sophie Cal. So Sophie Cal, the French artist, um, she had worked on this project in France where visitors are able to bury something of themselves while they're still alive. So to deposit their secrets. Uh, and so she did this in two other cemeteries. And I just love this idea that, like, we always think of the cemetery as a place for others, but what if we make it for ourselves? What if while we're still alive, there is something that we need to get rid of, we need to bury. And so the title of the work is Um Here Lie the Secrets of the Visitors of Greenwood Cemetery. And so it is this obelisk, and it is on a base, and there's a slit, and you can leave your secrets. And we are now, oh my gosh. So this is probably now almost nine years old, this project. We, I will say this this project came about like two months into working here. We got a call from Creative Time. And they were just like, I don't know if anyone there knows who Sophie Cal is. And I was like, I 100% who know who's Sophia Cal, like, whatever they want, we're gonna say yes. Like, we're we're gonna take this opportunity to work on this project. So that was sort of our first major art installation. And I think we need it, I mean, not that we definitely needed it as a way when we I began to approach other artists to work on projects here, as a way to say we do have this tradition that we are committed to working with artists. And Sophie Cal is, you know, a really esteemed, you know, contemporary artist. I think she does amazing work. And it is for nine years later, I mean, it is still gets visited. We have to go and clean out clogs sometimes because people are sometimes shoving whole diaries in there too, which is fantastic. But knowing that people are using it, and that was something that we started to think of from the get-go, was that we just don't want art that people are going to come and look at and contemplate. We want art that's going to move people to do something. There's going to be a call to action. So for the Sophie Cal, you know, it's to bury something, a secret. Um, when we did the Janine Antoni and the catacombs, that requires people, the catacombs are in the middle of the cemetery. So to move with intention through the cemetery and you come into this space that is only naturally lit. And all of the icons, and I definitely encourage everyone to Google it, Janine Antoni, Greenwood Cemetery, and she created these icons of body parts of her parents. And there are some, and her parents have have now passed away, but her parents were aging. She was a caregiver for them. And there is these beautiful moments where it's her mother's hands like posed, you know, in prayer, you know, enveloped in gold. And this idea of being conscious of your gestures and your body as it moves through the cemetery, as it moves through the world. And then we got to work with Kanji Chang and James Reeves inside of our historic chapel, where visitors were encouraged to write a message about someone who died, a message about a lost loved one. And what was so wonderful is we didn't realize, or we didn't know how people were going to respond to that. And I would say that was really our first like viewer interactive. Because with Sophie Cal, people are burying the secret. So we know it's getting full, but we just don't know how many it is. But with Candy Chang and James Reeves, we were seeing it being amassed, like in front of us. Um, we had hundreds of slots. So you would write, you know, sort of this message down and roll it up, and it would sort of become part of this large grid that was created, that was illuminated, that we had to start taking the secrets away because it wasn't just hundreds, it was thousands of people over the course of three months. And the messages were, I mean, some of them we couldn't read because they were in foreign languages that we, you know, weren't able to translate. And then others were prolific, where it talked about, I miss your smell. Um, I wish I got to say goodbye to you. And there was even some from children, you know, drawings. And there was one who said it's like my durable died and I'll never be the same again. And so people are able to think about grief at all ages. And it was so important for us is that you can go to any museum, to any gallery, you know, to ponder an object, but to be able to come into cemetery and leave something of yourself to feel that there is something of you that has been left behind. And we take very seriously all the things that people create here that take the time. And so at our last day of the dead altar, uh, Laura Anderson Barbata, um, she allowed people to color in these skulls. And originally that was just what the prompt that she wanted. She was like, oh, like these colorful skulls that you see in Mexico that are part of the day of dead tradition. I just, I just want people to be able to color it in. And then people took that opportunity to start writing messages on that without us prompting that. All the prompts said was like, use the crayons and markers here to like color in these paper skulls. And people use that opportunity. And and for me, it made me realize that there is such a yearning to be able to express yourself, to express that grief and to express this need for memorialization, that there is such this desire. And again, it all comes back. So, again, full circle, because I know I'm babbling. This idea of like, how do we create these moments and these opportunities for those who don't have loved ones buried at the cemetery, to create those moments and opportunities for them to do that at the cemetery? Because not everyone can afford there's a reality to burial, there's a reality to the death care industry. And I think what's great about cremation and natural organic reduction is that it's going to begin to lower those costs, you know, because uh before that, it's this idea of like you need a casket, then there has to be a viewing, then you have to put a foundation and then the gravestone. And those expenses add up. And I know that green burial is more than just being more, you know, not just about being more affordable. It still does cost something. It's, you know, about you know, being environmentally conscious. But I think for me and for a large audience, this allows it to be affordable. I mean, my husband and I don't talk about death. So for a guy who works at a cemetery, I do not talk about death. I am uncomfortable. I've been in therapy for years. Um, and I, my boss, um, my boss, my therapist is always like, I cannot believe you do not want to. And it's like, it frightens me. It totally, totally scares me. But when my husband and I do try to talk about it, um I can't imagine how I want to be buried. Do I want to be cremated? But I know I don't want to be a financial burden on my husband. I don't want to be a financial burden on my family. And so, whatever way we can do it, like I mean, the funeral is about the family. The funeral is not about the deceased. And I don't want anyone to feel like they're going into debt for me. And so I think all of these new ways, and you brought them up, it's a new opportunity for memorialization and it's a new opportunity for people to actually be able to bury a loved one with dignity and not feel, oh, it's less then. But it's it's something new that's a new opportunity and potential.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Oh gosh, I I have so many, a thousand places I want to go with this. First, just for you personally, it's it's so interesting to me. Like you, um, even though I've initiated this whole season and all these projects around the art of remembrance and legacy. Um, if I had to choose just one way to I keep learning new things that'd be like, oh, that would be cool. Oh, that would be cool. And it reminds me of when I was an interior designer. And when it came to designing my own house, I was at a loss because with through my clients, I got to express myself in lots of different capacities. But um, you know, yeah, I another time I want to have a conversation with you about that because I I'm fascinated that that you would be in the position that you are and and have so much exuberance about how this contributes to people's lives now and yet to still be kind of dancing around the edges of the conversation. But that's a that's a different thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

And I'll just say it is, I'll say really quick too. How hypocritical is that? I'm so excited to have these opportunities for people to talk about grief and like giving artists this platform. And I love, you know, artists who have never dealt with death and dying in their work, giving them that platform. And myself, I'm like, I don't want to talk about it. It's such a, you know, it's um I'll I'll be curious. That's something we should um have a coffee or a cocktail over and talk about.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

I know I'm coming to New York, we're having dinner. Um but but say more about so that do the residency program that you have there, are most of those designed to create these public um interactions, or do they have, do they come in all different flavors?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Oh, all different flavors. So our residency, so we usually I like to sort of divide it as that like so we do large-scale um sort of projects with, I would say, mid-career to established artists, where I like to think of artists who have not dealt dealt with death and dying in their work as much as a way as an opportunity for them to create something new and for them to experiment. You know, because I I I again, the language of death is difficult. I think it's complex. I think because people come from different visitors and those who are going to engage with their work come from different backgrounds and experiences. That I do think for any artist as an experiment. You know, with Ginny and Antonio, this idea is like, how will people respond to these gestures that she's guilt, you know, and she's gilding them and then they look almost like Byzantine icons? Well, you know, will people understand that iconography? With Sophie Cal, will people actually write their secrets? Are they going to engage with that? So there's a lot of experimentation that happens, even though we're committing a lot of resources to these mid uh career and established artists. But it was important during the COVID pandemic when we were thinking about ways to, I don't want to say stay relevant, but how can we still be a functioning arts institution? I think every, you know, every museum and gallery was considering that. And for us, we had this one gatehouse. So the cemetery has four main entrances. There used to be more back in the 19th century. And then some of the entrances had these small gatehouses, and they would be places where, you know, you imagine getting to cemetery would take a long time. And, you know, you would have to take the ferry to Brooklyn, and then you would have to get on a horse and carriage, and then get on another horse and carriage in the cemetery. So it was a place to relax, to put your feet up before or after your journey uh to the cemetery. And so we had this gatehouse that wasn't being used. And so we saw this as a great opportunity during the pandemic is how can we engage artists? We know we're we're at a point where we can't really encourage visitors to come in. Artists are not able to exhibit their work, they are losing their galleries, they are, you know, galleries are closing, um, exhibitions are being canceled, and they aren't able to keep up the expenses of their studio. So, how can we do something that helps uh support local artists? So the residency is for one year for an emerging artist to come in and be inspired by the cemetery. And, you know, since the very beginning, we are now on our, oh my gosh, I have to count it really quick. Fifth artist in residence. She just moved in, Gia Sung. She just moved in two weeks ago. When we put the application out, it was important to say, like, do not come in with a preconceived project. We want you to be inspired by the cemetery. We want you to think about this space, the place that you're in, and how it impacts your work. And in the in the beginning, with the first handful of residents, the first couple of residents, I should say, it was, oh, we'll work towards a final project. So you come in, you're inspired by the cemetery, and we work towards creating a final project. And we recently took that part out of the requirements because we don't want to put pressure on an artist to create something. That, oh, there's this finite, there's an experience you had, and so you have to create, you know, a body of work that is inspired by it. And I found it to be too much pressure on the artist because instead of truly being inspired by the cemetery, they have to work towards a goal because it's like, okay, the summit, the residency ends at a certain point and you have to create this project. And so let's truly make it be this opportunity for the artist to be inspired. And you don't want, you know, on day one, for an artist to feel like, oh, what what did you feel walking through the cemetery today? What are you going to create? So the residency is an experiment. You know, some of our sister cemeteries, as we call them, like Mount Auburn and Laurel Hill, has artists and residents. Um, they do these shorter terms, but I think having the longer term was important because you just don't know when it's going to click. You just don't know when they're really going to get that sense of inspiration. And we encourage all our residents to get to know all of Greenwood. And so to get to know the horticulture department and the preservation team and the grave diggers. And there's been really these really wonderful moments seeing, you know, our artists and residents like working closely with the grave digging team, trying to better understand the work that they do and how, in some ways, can they sort of be inspired by that? And that's just been a great opportunity for me as a curator to be able to work with these, you know, emerging artists, but also mid-career and established artists to think about how they move through the space. And, you know, at first, when I would tell people about, you know, the work I do here at Greenwood, I would be bashful because I was like, oh, it all eventually must look the same. Like, oh, I'm just going to be the death curator. But because death is so massive in its definition, it is so, it is not a singular thing. And I think that's the message I always like to hone in. Every artist who has come here has created a unique project. And so our um current work with Janine, um, not Janine Anthony, uh, Jean Shin, she's working on a project in our meadow, which is based on Korean burial mounds. So in Korea, um, it's very typical to have like these small little earthen mounds above the grave. And so she's creating a very large, massive one that commemorates the trees that have died at Greenwood. So we have moved these trees that have had to come down. Uh, they were hundreds of years old, and they're being laid to rest. But we're building this permaculture bed. So it's not just the trees, but we're also bringing in limbs and leaves and all these different um organic materials from the cemetery to build this mound, which wildflowers will spring from. So this idea is that even though these trees have died, there is this sense of rejuvenation and that they will come back and, you know, be the fertile ground for these wildflowers that will grow. And it's the first sort of memorial in the cemetery to nature because it is not to a person, but it is to this thing. And you can, even though it is to these two particular trees, you can, I mean, climate grief is a very real thing that is happening. What is happening in our world and the changes we're seeing, people need to also have an opportunity to grieve not just human loss, but loss on very different levels.

Music Storytelling And Night Programs

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Oh my gosh, that is just I just love everything that I'm hearing. So, in addition to the um emerging artists and the mid-career artists that are doing these installations, do you also curate programs for live music and performance art? Because you said that was your background, performance art. So have you had performance arts pieces uh performed at the cemetery?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Yeah, and I will say I am so, so grateful for the partnerships that we get to work with because, you know, my background again, Greenwood, thank you for taking the chance on me, was performance art from the 60s and 70s, which is very different than I think the art that like would get thousands of people who would come out to it. So it's been really wonderful to work with different partner organizations where it's like, oh, we'll curate the film series, but we'll work together on how do we get people into how do we advertise this, like all of the logistical production things. Uh, we work with this organization, Death of Classical, to do these concerts and uh these concerts in our catacombs, which are classical music, but new um contemporary classical music as well. And so we've been able to build this series that every year we put together five different concerts. So we we do that, we work with the Moth to do, you know, one of their storytelling sessions here that gets thousands of people. I mean, that sells out every year. There's this other event we do called Nightfall. So it happens over two nights where there are literally dozens of stages through the cemetery. And so we work with four different partner organizations to put together music stages and circus stages throughout the cemetery. So you everyone wants to be in the cemetery at night. So they get to discover the cemetery, they get to choose their own adventure and go at their own pace as they sort of turn every corner and there's one of these different stages are there to entertain them. So we do a whole variety of programs and we always like to talk about numbers too, like we got 30,000 people. Um, but those concerts in the catacombs, because of capacity, um, we can only get about 60 people in there. So we do a lot of intimate programming, our tours are always capped. At either 30 or 50, depending if it's a walking or a trolley tour. So even though we want to create these big gestures, there's also these opportunities for these smaller experiences with our great tree walks. We also have these, I mean, a whole slew of death education programs too, where we try to get people comfortable talking about the uncomfortable. And those tend to be very small group activities that we're working on. So we're trying to build the audience, but we're also trying to build a sense of community that people know that they can return here, that there'll always be a place where they can come and have conversations about death and dying, or they can come and see high-quality classical music in our catacombs. And we're about to open our greenhouse. So uh we're about to open a new building in the cemetery. Uh, well, just right outside the main entrance of the cemetery, uh, where we'll be able to do indoor programming, which we don't have many opportunities to do because primarily all of our space is outdoor. So we're really trying to expand sort of the different types of audiences that can come in here and what they can expect here.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Okay, two questions. One, the gatehouse is that artist and residence program, do they have to find a place to live and it's just the studio, or is it a work-live situation?

SPEAKER_00 46:07

I wish it was work-live, actually. And um we we've had people ask if they can just stay in there because it's a nice ice and it could be a studio. Uh, but no, um, they cannot live there. Um, it's usually that's why we choose artists in New York City, because we also, you know, for me, it's a I mean, I'm I would love to cast a wide net, but I think if you invite an artist to do a residency, then you would have to be able to financially support them. Yeah, you know, living in New York is difficult. So no, it's only open to New York residents. So it is just a a studio. Yeah.

Access Relevance And Stewardship

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Okay. And then the second question is uh, what was the second question? Oh, I know what it was. I remember reading somewhere that once upon a time, it was not easy to get entry into Greenwood Cemetery. It was, it was considered sort of a a private place for the families of the people who were residents and so on and so forth. But it was at some point, I think it was prior to you, that it was decided to reopen it as a public park. So you didn't have to have uh, you know, a relative or somebody in the park. When when did that transition happen?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

You know, I don't know the exact years. Don't quote me. But I have seen in our archives they were, you're right, there there were these little cards that you would get as a family, a family descendant or what we call lot owners, um, that would say you have the right to come in the cemetery. And those were the only people, if you had that card, be allowed into the cemetery. Things began to change for our last president, Richard Moylan, he was the one who had the vision. So he was president here for over 40 years and it was really in the 90s. So I don't know if that's when the the access changed, but it was in the 90s where he began to have this vision of, okay, we are, and you had mentioned this, we're going to run out of lots. How do we make this place? And I don't know if you would use this word, but I use it. Um, how do we make this place relevant to those who don't have family members buried here? Like, how do you get the next generation to be invested in this place? And when I talk about public programming, people are like, well, why are you doing these circus acts? And why are you doing these, you know, big film screenings? And to me, it's getting the next generation to love this place because if they love this place, they are going to make sure that it stays open. They are going to make sure that this place doesn't fall into disrepair. There are many historic cemeteries, and I'm sure your listeners may know of them, um, both big and small cemeteries that have fallen into disrepair. They don't have the money, they don't have the resources, they don't have people who are coming in to care for them. And so when you build, when you build the audience, when you build the pe an audience of people that love this place, they're going to be the next stewards. And it doesn't mean, oh, everyone's writing checks for thousands of dollars. I think you can be a steward in many different ways. You can come to the programs, you can volunteer, you can become a member. Um, but you can also can advocate for this space. You can encourage other people to come here to the cemetery. And I think that's really important, is that sense of stewardship also takes many, like grief itself, takes many different forms. And we need that audience. We need that audience who loves this space because otherwise we would fall into obscurity. You know, if we didn't build that audience, only a couple of people will come and eventually we would fall off people's radar. And so we have to remain relevant. So I guess it's okay to say that word. I mean, no one likes that word relevant because it almost seems like very smarmy, like, ooh, I gotta stay cool and hip. But it's not about us being cool and hip. It's about us trying to think about what are more ways we can age people in this landscape. And, you know, we've thrown spaghetti at the wall in terms of public programming. We have done things that have not worked, things that have not seemed right. Like, oh, is that really the message we is that really how we want to use our space? And it's been important for us to just think about who we are as a cemetery too. And we've only been doing programming. I've only been here for 10 years. They before I was here, they've only done a handful of tours. So, you know, we haven't been doing programming for more than a decade. So it's going to be important, I think, for us to continue to reassess who we are and how we position ourselves. And I think that's the growing pains of any institution.

Sharing Ideas With Other Cemeteries

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Sure. Now, do you have relationships with uh your sister cemeteries or other cemeteries across the country that would like to follow your lead in terms of the programming that you are providing?

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah, actually, I will say, you know, at first when I started here, it was like, there are competitors that we need to be at the forefront. But I think as time goes on, it's like, oh no, there's so much we can learn from each other because cemeteries, fortunately, like the big ones that are capable of doing programming. I mean, unfortunately, that's the one thing is that programming requires an investment in infrastructure and money and resources. So it's really the larger cemeteries that have been able to do it. I think now I think of it as like, how are ways we can support each other? How can we share sort of like what worked, what hasn't worked? Um, and so places like Mount Auburn and Laurel Hill and Oakland and Atlanta, I haven't been, a couple of people from my team have been, they're doing amazing work. So it's really great to see what they're doing in their spaces. And it sort of inspires us too, is that, you know, we always like to think we're the best. We are Greenwood. Um, but there are many other places across the country that are doing things. For me, my favorite experience was we worked with Eiko Otaka, who is this amazing Japanese American uh performer. We worked, you asked if we did dance. Um we it was our first real program um for COVID. It was the first time we welcomed audiences back. And it was, I mean, it was really difficult because it was like, who wants to go see art after all of this great loss? We had done it in September. So I mean, it was still COVID was still very much people were dying actively. You know, it was a really difficult time. Even to do something outdoors felt dangerous. And we worked with Pioneer Works, who has been an amazing partner for us, to do this performance with ACO, and it was wonderful. And so she has now performed in several cemeteries across the country. And she performed at one in Colorado Springs at this very small cemetery, which didn't have as many resources. Um, but she worked with a local college and she was able to do a performance there. And I got to do a talk, you know, about her work in general. And it was really wonderful to go out there and to meet the team and to learn about like, how are you using your cemetery? What are the ways you, what's working for you and doesn't work for you? And it was interesting is that like they were very much wanted to know a lot about Greenwood, to be like, oh, you guys are, you know, you know, setting the bar. And I was like, no, I want to know how you're using your space too, because there's so much that we can learn from each other. Because I think it's easy to say that, like, you know, the bigger, larger cemetery with all the resources is gonna set the trend. But I I think seeing it at these smaller spaces where they're doing it at the local level and it's a lot of volunteer-based, that's really important. Because those are people who love this place, who really want to see things happen there. And I envy the work that they're doing because they're doing it on a grassroots level. That's really important. And so for this small cemetery in Colorado Springs, that whole team of, I mean, really, it's a team of volunteers who are doing all the programming there is so important. So I encourage all your listeners, if there's a local cemetery that needs help or support, it's so, so important because the little things you do can go such a long way.

Remains To Be Seen And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Well, absolutely. And to your point of making it more sort of democratic and giving people access to cemeteries that might not have a traditional home in that place, to make it a public and community-inspired space for everybody. I mean, uh a park is that way, and uh and a cemetery has a kind of more more poignancy and gravitas, and it's just such a perfect, to me, it's such a perfect backdrop for the arts and for um a demonstration of how we want to live our lives and the celebration of life and on and on and on. But I want to share with you one other thing before I can't believe how fast this time has gone. Um, the in in association with this podcast series, we're rolling out very soon an exhibition, a virtual exhibition space that we're calling Remains to be seen, which again came out of uh an idea that I had thir more than 30 years ago when both of my parents, neither of them had uh cremation urns that were suitable for them. Um, in those days, there weren't very many artists applying themselves in that way. Um, but this this virtual exhibition is going to be just that virtual open 24-7. Originally I wanted to do a brick and mortar exhibition that would start in Santa Fe and then move across the country with my idea of it ending up in New York, near Brooklyn, and hopefully near uh accessible to Greenwood Cemetery people. But I hope that you'll be able to provide me with some ideas for artists, some of your emerging artists who have come through the program that would like to present as part of this exhibition. It's it's going to be that nobody has to give me any artwork. We'll just be taking photographs of and images of the artwork, whether it's music, whether it's dance, whether it's an art, a memorial arts object. And that will become part of the virtual exhibition so that we can call more attention to the artistry around this topic.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Yeah, you know, actually, it's so funny you mentioned this. We got a tour of another arts organization in Brooklyn and they have this whole ceramic studio. And so, you know, we were talking about like, how can we, you know, it's hard to think about how to work with a cemetery, but they work with a lot of artists who are either renting spaces or commissioning their team to create things. And we're like, you know, most urns people buy, even though there's a lot more options now, I agree with you, are pretty okay, I I shouldn't say it. They are a certain style. And it's like, wouldn't it be great if you can work with an artist and commission something? Because what I love about um we it's called Tranquility Garden. There's a number of these sections in the limited, but trility tranquility garden is um where we have these open glass glass niches. And I love seeing how people personalize it, whether it's with the urn they choose, what flowers they put in there, um, or the photo. We're like, wouldn't it be great if to work with artists? So I'm going to follow up with you and this organization because there are artists who are doing this, but there is no sort of like what's the market. And it's not again about like making money, but allowing people to have access to resources where it's like, oh, I didn't know I could actually create something unique or special. I didn't, I thought I only had to be able to buy it from a catalog.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Exactly. And so that's one of the main reasons that I did this whole thing. And the Remains to be seen exhibition will be a selection of memorial arts objects that are available to the public now through private commission. One of the podcast episodes I did was with a guy named Chris Mensch out in Washington. And he makes these beautiful, what he calls prayer wheels. And there are these on a turntable. And he made one for the Dalai Lama, but they're they have this beautiful narrative that goes around the exterior. And like you were describing with some of the artists that you had in situ, they're like prayer wheels so that you can put uh remembrances inside. And he has these two very large ones in parks and installations out in Seattle, where people can write on a message that they want to put inside. And every once in a while they have to empty them out. So it's a variation on the theme of what you were describing. But there's so many things like that. And as I'm doing this podcast, I'm discovering more and more and more really creative approaches to incorporating artistry into um the whole scheme of things.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Now, can I ask you a question? So, so something just as we were talking about that, and I know we're probably uh tight on time. Have you discovered that artists are more open to talking about death or working on projects? Because then I'll just say really quick for my own experience, I was so worried that when I first started, like, no one wants to do something in a science, or no one wants to like tackle this project. And so when I'm approaching people like Jean Shin and um Candy Chang and uh Jean Anna and Tony, it's just like, oh, they're not gonna want to, and they jumped at these opportunities. So I'm curious, like, what has your experience been?

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Well, uh of course I've been seeking out people for whom death as muse is already part of their awareness. And so um, but I've also been having these art of conversation dinners that I've started with this series. And I have seven people, seven guests, and we have a prompt that is death related, and we just dive into the topic. Nobody's shy about talking about it. I mean, i i we might have a hard time getting you to talk at the dinner party, but I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

I'm excited to encourage others to talk. But yeah.

Support The Show And Mission

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Yeah, but every everybody has an experience around it. And I think if it's approached with a kind of reverence but levity at the same time, you know, there's a there's a way in. And and that's part of what I'm trying to do is interrupt this silence, this pregnant pause that happens around it and just sort of invite people into the conversation. So these art of conversation dinners that we've started is one way that I have been engaging people in the conversation. And invariably it comes out, oh, this artist is doing this around that topic. This artist is doing this. And every episode that I've had, I've spoken to somebody who says, Oh, you need to meet so-and-so. Uh, just a couple of days ago, I spoke with, and you may have met her, her name is Conchetta Abate. She's a musician in Queens, yes. And she does musical eulogies and plays at funerals for people all the time. So whether it's music, whether it's it's uh a memorial arts object, I know uh another artist, I think she's out of New York, who I will be talking to, named Heidi Hatchery, who creates um portraits of the deceased using the cremains mixed into the New York, yeah. Um, and there are, you know, a thousand variations on that. And I'm trying to find as many people as I can to offer different perspectives on on how things can be, you know, twisted around. So um, yeah, the answer is a big yes. There are people, and also one of the reasons that I'm doing this project now versus 30 years ago is that in terms of my peer group, people are a lot more open to talking about it in general because when I was in my early 20s, when both my parents died, people didn't even want to talk about it as if talking about it would get it on them, you know, like it might invite death in some superstitious way. Whereas now, I don't think I know anybody who hasn't been touched by death, whether through COVID or just being the age that I am in my mid-60s. And it just, you know, it's it's happens, it's part of the process. So I find the conversation increasingly, people are a lot more interested in it. And everybody that I mentioned, the programs that you're doing at Greenwood Cemetery, lights up. But I can't thank you enough for uh for having this conversation with me. I've been looking forward to it for such a long time. Thank you so much. I'll talk to you soon. Yes. Bye-bye. So thanks for joining us today. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.artbridgenm.org and thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.