ArtStorming the Art of Remembrance: Michael Scott

A painting can be more than an image. It can be a witness, a prayer, and a record of what someone leaves behind. We’re in Santa Fe with nationally acclaimed artist Michael Scott, standing in front of a five-by-five canvas he carried for seven years after the loss of his mother: a boat filled with flames gliding through a marsh at night, smoke rising like calligraphy, a dove and a crow holding opposite truths about spirit and the here-and-now.

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Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Transcript

Intro + Fade Out Gap

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside? Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Artstorming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Artstorming, The Art of Remembrance. Today we're stepping inside the Santa Fe studio of a man whose work sits at the volatile intersection of spirit, science, and survival. Nationally acclaimed artist Michael Scott. Now, over the nine years I've known Michael, every time I've walked into his studio, it's been a visceral experience. This season gave me a really good excuse to finally sit down and talk to Michael about a monumental piece, seven years in the making, a painting born from the loss of his mother. It's a piece thick with symbolism where smoke curls into calligraphy and every cattail and crow tell a story of transition. But that's just the beginning from the heart surgery hallucinations that birthed his St. Michael series, of which I actually am thrilled to have a piece, to his spiritual search for God through the American landscape. Michael's journey is one of profound transformation. We'll be talking about the breath of life, the heat of the flame, and what remains when smoke clears. Let's head into the studio with Michael Scott. I have been wanting to have this conversation since I conceived of this podcast. And you and I have had, can you believe it's been nine years since we had our first conversation?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Oh, you're kidding.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Uh-uh. I'm not. Oh my god. Nine years. Of course, I I know Michael's wife, Ellie, who's been, we were in a book club together. And so it's just finally a privilege that we get to be here in the space of your studio where we have the works that we're going to be talking about right in front of us. And um anyway, we're just going to jump right in. So one of the reasons that I was so excited to talk to you was that not only is your current body of work an absolutely perfect expression of the themes that we're covering this season, the art of remembrance, death as muse, artful exit. But you also have all these threads that seem to that are environmentally inspired. And our whole season, every single episode, seems to touch on the environment and environmental degradation and just the way that the environment can be a metaphor for this whole conversation. So, um, and I also, if we get to it, one of the reasons that I got to know your work was I guess it was about eight years ago, you had a near-death experience and produced a body of work from that. And that was the first thing that got us talking. And that was well before I even conceived of this project. So if we get there, we might go there. So let's just see where we're going to be.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

We'll see where we go.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

But the last time I was here, well, I guess it was last summer, I was here for an event, and you showed me a piece that you were working on that um I will describe it in my terms, and then I'm gonna let you take it away. So when looking at a very large tableau, it's about what would you, is it six by six?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

No, it's about five by five. Five by five? Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

And it's a it's a boat filled with flames, go walk, you know, sort of going through a marshy or kind of bayouy kind of area with some calolilies, and emerging from the smoke on the boat is a white dove and a crow, and the sky is it's a night sky with a full moon, and it is absolutely spectacular. When I was here, you were you mentioned unsolicited that this was inspired by the loss of your mother.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, yeah. Uh, but this painting has gone through so many renditions of what that represented. Um, at one time it was figurative. Uh, the you know, I've been on this painting for about seven years. Oh, wow. And so it finally matured to a place where I was certainly familiar with. I had painted it uh in my early years uh when I was showing in New York, and it was based on the River Styx, this uh mythological river. Right, I'd forgotten it. And and uh and so between that work that was done uh during that time, and you can even like look at let's say the Swiss artist uh Blochin, who did a series of paintings based on the same subject, which was this island of death, and it was a solitary boat uh with an oarsman and then a standing figure over a cop and taking it out to this burial crypt. And um that always was something that stuck with me in a mysterious way. I mean, it's you know, those kind of subjects are not like easy subjects to kind of like dive into. Oh yeah, I want to I want to be involved in that uh completely. No, it's it's it seems to have to have another element and another force pushing it. And so you're witnessing a boat with the fire, a fire, you know, a burial crook, and emerging from that is uh the the smoke, which in some ways becomes the voice of the activity that's occurring in front of the viewer, and emerging from the smoke, so that's like in my opinion, the uh smoke is calligraphy, it's a story being told about this individual's life. I totally see that, and then you have emerging from that uh the dove, and then counter to the dove is the raven or the crow. The dove is both flesh and spirit at the same time. And um, which is over history pretty much been the role of the dove. And the the raven or the crow is oftentimes a bad rap, you know, as far as it represents singularly just death. And in this case, uh that's a metaphor that could be uh applied. However, it also represents the here and now, the witnessing, it it is not where the dove is in motion and is fluid and is a spirit, the crow is the historian. It stands guard over the meaning of this particular event and this person's life, etc. And so that, and then you you know, you have all these cattails. I where I used to live in Ohio, I had a pond, and and I would always be so fascinated by the red-winged blackbirds who wouldn't nest in these cattails. It was just fabulous to witness. And so the cattails and the way they are configured become in nature the kind of nervous system within a human.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Oh, interesting parallel.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

And so, yeah, and so you have the pillars of the dead trees, uh, which once were living, obviously, and then now decayed and become just a different form of energy. And then you have within that this fire crypt and these two birds having a conversation about one's life.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

It's so arresting. And I love what you said about the the calligraphy because it really it is almost, and and we often when we talk about legacy in this series, we talk about it being sort of the echo of what somebody leaves behind. You know, so in a lot of times we talk about legacy like the name on a building, but really we're thinking of it as that that that smoke, that echo of the person that we leave behind.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Well, it is if you look at it this way, it's really the breath of a human leaving the body. And so it it does it it does operate on a lot of levels, this painting. And uh, and I'm glad you feel it's a rusty. I I don't want it to be upsetting. I I think we all are uh going to have this conversation uh between our physical self, our soulful self, and then the reality of our life and how we are transitioning. And so, you know, it's it's not like uh a bed of daisies, but it could be, I suppose, depending on your interpretation. And uh anyway, it's the complexities of one's life, basically. That's what it boils down to. And it's hard to describe, and it's very difficult. That's why it took me seven years to actually complete the painting, because you know, I operate with a lot of symbolism and metaphors, and I don't want to be didactic in my conversation as a painter. I want the viewer to be able to bring their conversation to the image without me telling them what it has to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

So well, one of the things that I think is the great opportunity of all of your work, but this painting in particular, is that you because it's not just just a landscape, there are there's undeniable action that's happening in it. And so you have to sit with that and you have to make up what's going on here. And because there is so much symbolism in it, anybody who's inclined to interpret work like this is going to start that narrative in their mind. And then it starts the narrative that goes kind of deeper, like, what does this mean to me? And what I love about art as a as an entry point to the conversation about immortality is that the idea is not to be morose or to, you know, to dwell on the negative, but really to get down to what is it that inspires us at our core to live in the now. So by pondering the inevitable, we get to think about what's happening now. And in the same way that your environmental paintings that are showing degradation of the environment, that's a wake-up call, too. Like, what are we up to? What are we doing? What do we care about? And watching the most beautiful landscapes on earth being burnt to the ground with this transformative power of fire, right? So all those elements.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

It is it is uh sublime, you know. Destruction can be sublime, beauty can be sublime. I mean, it is beyond the capacity of us to comprehend as humans. And uh that's the mystery of death is what's next. And um, I find that to be pretty fascinating. And if you're a landscape painter, you're constantly involved in that particular uh conversation because you're out in the field, you have these trees that have fallen, you have these limbs that are broken, these are um being washed up ashore and they're bleached out just like a skeletal structure. And so it poses the question about the life of that object, and um where did it come from? I mean, was it always here or did it wash ashore? Uh now what? And so you know, you take you take your saw, you cut off a branch, you create um a fire, and then you renew it again out of yet another life. And then the thoughts that the fire represent and the thoughts that it provides become yet another entry into this unknown and uh the meanings of your own life.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Yeah, so it's this ongoing cycle, and and be given talking about the cycle of the environment. Before we got on mic, you were showing me an image of a piece that you have in the Cincinnati Art Museum. And you said you went to that site several times. And because the trees were deciduous, the form of the this large rock formation that becomes the central component of the painting was revealed to you as the leaves were off the trees. And so that again speaks to how the landscape is always changing, we're always changing, and the landscape is a metaphor for us and the transformative power of all of these elements, fire, water, and which are all play in a major way into your work.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was uh, it's not at the that particular painting. I have work in the Cincinnati Museum. However, that was commissioned by this the um Museum Center in Cincinnati, and it was a fusion of scientific research in this one area of where the ice stopped, you know, the glaciers receded, and then the grasslands and again it left all of this interesting geological information. And um, yeah, that was kind of a new approach. That body of work that I showed there, I had not incorporated science colliding with art together. And so there was a hundred paintings within that conversation, plus artifacts that and not artifacts, but fossils, etc., that dealt with earth, air, fire, and water. And so that was the total exhibition of ideas. And I've kind of married myself to that whole notion, because you know, you're dealing now in a society that, you know, is denied science, and uh, and so I'm trying to look for resources uh visually that allow me to express both an artistic endeavor but also a scientific one.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Well, say more about how you play with the elements in this current body of work, for example.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Well, this particular transformation painting had been going on. We had Ella and I have a place in Maine. We go there, and basically it's like a retreat from ourselves, and we make paintings and do work every night.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I can't imagine needing a retreat from yourselves. We're sitting here in one of the most gorgeous locations in Santa Fe. You two are the most creative human beings I know. I can't imagine needing to take a break from that, but whatever.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Well, you need you you you it you you need uh, you know, everybody needs a break from themselves. And so uh it's kind of nice because what happens on the water is just magical. And so I had done projects oh a couple decades ago that dealt with narration and storytelling. And so I decided this last summer I would do a suite of paintings. I built a little fire pit down on the water's edge, and I was going to um, you know, about every third or fourth night, I was gonna build a big bombfire and just sit there and uh witness it. And and I you have no idea. It's chills in my body just to be in the presence of this place because it's totally silent, and you have a glass, uh a glass image in front of you with water, which is also kind of an illusion of itself because of the reflection. So you have the image, you have the reflection, all of it leaves internally, and so the thoughts that you have, etc., then become a conversation at that moment. So I would do a fire painting, and then I would take notes as the that particular, what that particular fire gave me. And I'm into that in a big way. And so I'm gonna show those at Evoke in April, along with this transformation painting, and then this stag, which is also about renewal, and that's the room. It's a just a meditation, and uh, and so hopefully people come out and experience the well.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Oh, you said you were gonna do something like a fire pit or something in in the rooms.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Well, that was it, yeah. That was uh the idea that uh was posed to me by the directors, and um, and so I'm assuming it's moving forward, and that that too will add to this, you know, there's this witnessing fire, you know, this this whole thing uh is connected to ideas. I mean, it it is like we we derive the word spark from the flame. And so when you have an idea, it's like, yeah, they sparked that idea. And it's fabulous to participate in that element.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Well, not to mention, I mean there's so many layers to the metaphor of fire, but what I love about the what the proposed exhibition is that you're really can creating a contemplative retreat where you can meditate on the flames, in addition to having the suggestions of of what those flames have meant to you at other kind of captured moments. It's it's really a cool idea.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, it's it's it's uh it's interesting. And and you know, you the out of the smoke from the fire and things, you see things. I mean, there's illusions, and and then you have this dialogue between the fog and the sun and and the rock, and I mean, all of them become characters within this little play in front of you. And so you're witnessing theater in your imagination, and so I've well and it harkens back to the earliest people who were around the fire or as early as people on fire go.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

And all of if you think about all of the ideas and the imagination that fire conjured, I mean, entire religions grew out of staring into the fire.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Well, yeah, and certainly sucks. I mean, you've got you've got that element of like, you know, metaphorically, and also wondering, you know, Bachelor, this French philosopher, 19th century, you know, he wrote that earliest man, how fire was created, rubbing two sticks together, how they made an awareness of friction from sexual activity having heat attached to that.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Oh my god, it never occurred to me. I know.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Now that heat and friction then gets applied to what if we do this and rub these sticks together? Can we make the same kind of element heat up? Fascinating theory. Whoa. No, whoa.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Well, no, it it's I mean, and this is what we're all talking about is these sort of primal ideas and where do they come from and who are we as human beings and where are we going? It's that bridge between those two realities, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

That's it. It is uh it's fascinating. And you know, as much as it's fire can be destructive, which it certainly can, and it seems to be within all of the elements you're seeing more severity, and uh but at its best in terms of uh releasing nutrients and carbon back into the soil in terms of agriculture, it's a good thing. And certainly indigenous people knew that and knew how to manage it. And uh as soon as you get governments involved in doing that kind of activity, it then it it seems to lose well, certainly the ritual, but the connectedness to the land. It becomes a mandate on a piece of paper as opposed to, well, this is uh the day or the month that we need to burn that field and and take care of it. So, you know, it's a whole different approach to being aware of the earth.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And how did you get into doing landscape painting in the first place? I don't think I've ever asked you that.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Well, I was really, really lucky. I was at the Art Institute in Kansas City, that's where my undergraduate degree is, and and they send two students to the Scow Hegan School every year. And I was one of those two students that received that fellowship. And um, and so I studied there, interesting enough, Alex Katz, who was in Maine, landscape artist, Rackstraw Downs, who was in Maine, the landscape artist, John Button, who was a New York City artist, uh uh that did city buildings and landscapes as well. And so it was and Neil Weller was up there as well. So I I had not painted the landscape. I was painting the figure at the artist. And uh and so it was really my first in-depth exposure to it. And then um kind of growing up my family uh came out of rural Arkansas, Northern Arkansas. And um and you know we were always as kids, you know, on the farms and and you know being wild all day and and enjoying it. So the you know the landscape's always been part of part of uh my being I hadn't painted it though until I had gone to school there at the Artist. And what brought you out west well uh I was on Martha's Vineyard um one summer and a friend of mine said yeah you gotta come out and check this place in in Santa Fe he just booed from New York City and encouraged me to come out and so I did that fall and how long ago was that oh my God uh well probably 30 years ago yeah and then we ended up buying a house in town in this 200 year old Adobe and that's nice but you know not it was very small it was on these sides like no studio and so um and I was fortunate to get a dealer right away I was with Joe Peters um Gail was my great ally there and I was going back and forth from Ohio to New Mexico and I was still earthbound in Ohio and I was raising chickens and and having uh my own little gentleman's farm enjoying that and then I started writing these storybooks about um birds and and um characters and kind of heady subjects like where does how do you unlock creativity or where does inspiration come from those are kind of the Oh I can't imagine why that would be interesting to you. That would be kind of a question I would be posing myself and then create this ridiculous narrative around of using chickens as the characters and so yeah it it really to see one of those books I can't believe we got through the whole season about what like what is the nature of creativity and I didn't know about that book. Well there was there was three it was like a decade and uh it was Penny's Grand Vision and that was the first one and then the Diaries of Little Red Hen which was an all woman it was like grandma you know in chicken in that one and then Farney Fables uh which had to do with the difference between value and worth and so those were the three subjects that uh I took on and the chickens had the conversations is that out oh yeah I'll have to get you the set it's a three book set three stories but Michael that's amazing and so then you came out here and you got this piece of land or is this considered Lamey? This is Lamey that's who we're at and um so in town for a number of years but then needed to figure out well you got we're gonna transition out here we need a studio and so fortunate enough to part of this this uh ridge and uh and kind of start slowly and you know built the studio first and then a couple years later regrouped and then was able to complete the house and um and so and worked with a fellow artist uh that I went to graduate school with in Cincinnati uh Mike Sharby he was the he was a sculptor in the program and so he builds things and did build like a sculptor would create yeah I think I met him at this at your yeah you did yeah he was there he and Jackie yeah yeah that's awesome yeah yeah well so I mean it how has this landscape influenced your work as opposed to I mean you know Maine is so watery I've spent a lot of time in Maine growing up and you know just completely gorgeous but almost opposite kind of climate it is and I painted this uh landscape I do best if I go into the mountains and it seems like for me the language of a painting occurs in its truest rhythmic way out of verticals and so I require verticals these these forms to set up you know space and and rhythm and uh interactions and then they become in that way they become characters or something you know and so it it's not like if you just looked at you know just a hill you're wondering well what's the definition of that in terms of any kind of narrative and and uh and it possibly is it it just seems like I do better with certain types of um structures yeah positionally well there's it seems like big maybe because it's dry here but it it seems like in all of your paintings I mean maybe not the you know somebody that I'm looking at right now but there's always a quality of life very of the life force and the death force in all of your work.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

I mean there the there's the the dried trees or it's winter something that implies death and then the life force implied by the water or the fire or some of these other elements but there's always this incredible combination has your work always had that complete spectrum of elements and life death force?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well I never you know I never used to think of it that way I think like I said earlier where you know if you are landscape painter and you're out in the field there's no way you cannot be a participant and observe that that's just part of it. But then beyond that how do you continue like if you look at all of this body work in front of you right now none of it really is the same. It's they all are their own journey as far as the conversation that I'm trying to figure out. And so painting it has that. And so painting metaphorically and in reality is also a life death force I mean you are creating and then you think you're going somewhere then it it shifts in front of you and that mark decided to go this way and and took your mind that way with it doesn't mean it was successful but it means it was worth investigating. And so then from that you realize well that was a going down a rabbit hole you know and and so you sand it down again. So you're involved in a death of sorts in terms of the creation of that particular image. And so that's fascinating to me that aspect of a nonlinear experience with a picture an illusionary picture and what it is that picture you're involved with, what is it talking to you about? And because it is in conversation as much as you're trying to discover the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah and what we were also just talking about earlier you were describing the the pieces that are going to be in the new show this large piece with the stag and the boat piece and these littles that are with the you know about the fire pit on the pond and rain. And I I can see how they all talk they're in conversation with each other even though they were created in different head spaces you know you were different spaces when you created them and when the person goes to experience them in a room with a fire pit it's gonna be a very chapel like experience not on in fact I just met um the pre the new president of the Rothco chapel in in Houston. Oh yeah so talk about a spiritual space with paintings that are all in conversation with each other. And so you're going to be creating this like temple like experience in that show. My question though is when you create a body of work and you're working on a number of pieces at the same time and then they maybe they stay together while they're in the show but then they go off into different places. They do what happens to your conversation with those paintings when they like they leave their little family of people well it's true they uh change and the environment they're shown in changes.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Right now I have work at the Amon Carter Museum at a show I have work at the Autry Museum in LA at a show and I'll be in May opening outside of Atlanta at the booth museum a bigger show and that for the most part was initiated by great American uh national parks of the West that's where that body would grew out of and then all of this grew out of that and and it was so you know and you had mentioned you know the spiritual component of light death as a human being you know I had this heart surgery and stuff. And so that was in some ways how I initiated returning back to the landscape from these other narratives I'd been doing. And uh because you know you get real clear about what makes you happy and what you want to do with your time. And um and so that is kind of an umbrella that oversees all of these conversations that I'm in. And so it's migrated from the landscape solely as landscape no figure to incorporating figures as animals on occasion looking at specific animals and in this last body of work last four years I've looked at the plight of habitat for the polar bear the Arctic wolf and uh the caribou and so you know those are conversations that deal specifically with habitat and environment they're not easy necessarily to participate in but I think they're important in my own time to be present within my own time that way.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Are they self-portraits in that way?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Well they're arguments that I might have within myself I'll put it that way and so not so much necessarily an argument but an exploration for sure. Yeah they they always are explorations but you know seeing you you you you kind of have to identify with with certain um like I don't identify with a mongoose for instance and so but I do my family crest in Scotland is the stag and and so I identify with that the polar bear because I just find the I deal with fire so much in so many of my works and then that carries over to the heating of the the icebergs and and uh you know Arctic areas and and the same with the uh plight of the caribou which in the tundra you have millions of years of carbon stored and with you know that's like you are taking something very large out of the freezer and you're thawing it out that's a huge deal and uh and what happens with the caribou in that regard is they require lichen in the winter they dig down to get the lichen and um but what happens the snow melts and then freezes and then it prevents them from digging down far enough to get to the uh the food and the nourishment nourishment in the wintertime. And so yeah it's it's uh we're it you know the planet will survive humans may not you know in terms of the evolution of things but um you know we've got our work cut out for us as far as that goes but the new paintings from the pond they're not environmentally charged they that's a different conversation I want to explore which has to do with this idea of a stream of consciousness and being present and what do you see when you are present would you like me to read you one of these heck yes let me grab one over here that would be great I would that and so they will I think I need to just to be able to demonstrate what I'm referring to tonight the fire held a special presence spells and quiet chance it always carried magic but something had shifted perhaps I gathered more birch than pine and the light changed from color and the voice changed from its red core. The fire became a storyteller reading inscriptions written in birch bark.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

I love that when I was a little girl we used to peel the birch bark off the trees or fine birch bark and we would write letters on it. And in those days we could put a stamp on it and send it back to Dad.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yes he exactly could I mean still can I'm sure but nevertheless this is a different one evening sun glittered in orange and yellow casting color onto the white limbs of fallen trees shifting the pond's moot fire rose like a mountain its red and violet notes reaching outward toward the jagged shore for its embrace and so there's twelve of these and that's what I'm going to be showing along with this uh transformation painting and then the title of this piece is The Moth and the Flame which well there's it's such a perfect show for for the fire year of the fire horse right and then you have that yeah I don't pay horses but you know it it is certainly uh yeah uh it was kind of cool the that new year has started yeah that's it's what it would be really cool if you had um pieces of paper in the galleries for people to after they've stared into the fire to can make their own yeah that's true.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

I mean I just love this idea of people participating because the conversations that we're having with various different artists and creatives is great. One of the things we're really hoping to do is inspire people beyond just the listening and the storytelling which is medicine in of a kind in and of itself but is really to engage people in their recapturing their creative agency and uh being having the courage to if they don't think of themselves as creative to kind of re-embrace that aspect of themselves their creative autonomy their agency and so we keep coming up with these prompts that will help people engage more deeply instead of just being a voyeur.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yes so let's say you're gonna stay over for a few days here at my house and so the winner is outside and a stack of wood is on the porch and we're going to build a beautiful fire tonight and cook on it in the kiva. That's one of my favorite rituals and well what happens out of that fire in the Kiva you're not only cooking with it and you're not only eating the fire but then it provides an opportunity for a beverage to sit and discuss what any number of topics that one might want to participate in in terms of dialogue. And so that to me is a beautiful ritual and so that's so I not only like to drink fire but I like to eat the taste of fire as well. And also again these poems grow out of what you just described which is everybody has set in front of a fire and allowed their mind and their being to wander and that is in my opinion the role of the artist you're a wanderer and you are collecting and you are gathering and you are trying to put things together that make sense to you and then you share that back to culture and society as a conversation that it may not be a uh the most brilliant conversation but it is worth discussing. And so I think as an artist that's the role that I always like to participate in.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Well one of the things I love about your work is that for people who are maybe not as comfortable in the in the world of abstract art as a contemporary artist because you're depicting things that people that are relatable for people and yet you're doing it in a very contemporary way with very contemporary ideas. So it's a it's a great invitation for people to come into a conversation about contemporary art and have it be more than than simply a depiction of something familiar.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

You're actually provoking them to do go into the unfamiliar through the familiar yeah and I'm not really interested in depicting a place I I find the place to be the inspiration to um look for other ideas. It kind of spurs you forward so when you're doing these field paintings uh in the landscape you know it's a dance of sorts you're you're participating in the moment and there's so many elements that occur there and um and it's a language that you're trying to discover about the place. And so there is the these forms and these abstract kind of interactions with shape that that's the building blocks that make for a good piece. And so it's not a matter of how much detail you throw at it it has to do with just are you getting at this abstract language that exists there. And so again it has nothing to do the place is the excuse for the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Right. It's almost like they're more archetypal and dream it's almost like dreamscapes where there are recognizable elements but it's going to take you somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah we all dream and I think that's fascinating I certainly early on was influenced by you know the surrealist I love that movement I love the faux movement you know there's so many things and certainly you know in America you have this other conversation about God and nature and you know the pretty national work pretty much addressed that conversation which um you know is uh how do you discover uh that divinity and um and so using like the luminous painters of the 19th century or let's say the Hudson School or all of those people that were looking west and the idea of well under Jackson certainly it manifest destiny had to do with resource and how can it God will provide and give us endless amounts of fresh water timber coal whatever you know those resources were without any environmental consequence now we know of course that's a lie and so how do you regroup in that conversation and look for God in a new way in your own life and uh using the natural world to um be the regenerative element that feeds your soul.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Well it's so interesting because when you think about it nature the way we think of nature is that it is this potentially endless resource or renewable resource and that the earth is going to go on way beyond us. And here we are these very mortal beings. And so we have to have we have this very interesting juxtaposition between being very mortal and very time limited in this expansive earth planet that we live on that we think is is forever and we have to reconcile that. And I think spirituality is one of the ways that we try to reconcile that.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Well I think art that's the deal with art you know I mean that's where art is soul food. And um because what happens there in certain work of art or a certain awe struck moment in the natural world it alters time and space. You're now on a journey in front of that work of art that is captivating and allowing you to travel in your imagination that's where art lives that's the reason why it's so difficult to make a good work is because it has to be alive. And if it's not alive then it's dead and uh and it it says nothing. And so it's the mystery within the work of the unknown that it's talking about that keeps you coming back to it and you reinvent in your conversation with it and learn more each time that's that's the the great awestruck kind of moment that you know you can achieve out of uh participating in in all of the arts for that matter.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah well now I can't help myself we have to go speaking of awe struck and that moment that you had and a body of work that you produced As a result of having a very specific experience in your own life trajectory that produced a body of work that's very different from any anything else I've seen of yours, and maybe harken back to the original figurative stuff that you did. But that St. Michael series was please speak to that because it's some of the most compelling work I've ever seen in of any artist anywhere. And I think it's because of the you captured it at a moment that was so raw and so intense for you. And that comes spit talk about a living piece of art. I mean, that experience still jumps off those canvases.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah, there they were they it was a journey, no doubt about it. Not one that I would like necessarily to live in, but it was funny. I was in uh Illinois, we're down in San Miguel and rented a house, and I don't know, you're down here for a few months. What are you gonna do with your time? You know, we're gonna make art, you know, just what we do. And so the churches were always open, you know. There you can always go in, and and I I would go and I would, you know, do some drawings and things of these animate objects within the churches, and they were interesting to me. And you I would watch people pray to, you know, again, it gets pray to this object. And I thought, what's that about? You know, I didn't grow up in the Catholic religion, I was Lutheran. And so anyway, that was that. And I created a body of work out of that, which had to do with Mary. Well, in Samigal, if you're familiar with it, a lot of hills. And so we were living at the bottom of the hill. We had to walk up and da-da-da. And I was always out of breath, and you know, what's going on? So I came back to New Mexico and had my heart checked out because I said, What's going on with this? Well, it turns out I had a birth defect, a bycuss was fouled, and then surgeon, doctor said, you know, you deal with this, or you're probably gonna die within two years. And so I thought, okay. So you start interviewing and doing, you know, who's gonna do this stuff, this operation. And so I isolated out of some research uh that I was gonna go to the Cleveland Clinic for this event. And so they did the operation. I was on so many uh drugs and medications that I was hallucinating this whole battle between myself as St. Michael, uh taking on that name, and slaying the dragon. Yeah, slaying the dragon, and and so there was there was a lot of of emotion in those visions that I was having under drugs that I couldn't quite get out of my head. And so upon the tail end of all of that, I once I was able to start making some pictures again, I did never expecting to ever show them really. I just kind of, you know, artists kind of had to get it out of their craw. And so um I did that body of work. And oddly enough, they also, you know, dealt with the four elements. And and you know, you look back, it's been kind of a theme for me over my entire career. And um, and so there was imagery with water and wind and you know, and fire and and earth, and so it was um, you know, it's a chapter, and uh, and so not one that I want to necessarily relive or involve myself in, but you know, it was what it was, and uh, and I was doing um because of the religious content of it, I was experimenting with different surfaces, and so I was using aluminum, painting on top of that, and then sanding and polishing the aluminum so it had luminosity, like an altarpiece you would find in these churches, and and uh and they were luminous beings, uh, whether it be out of the Mary or the uh the Michael work. And so anyway, that's uh they are spectacular.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

I I just they I saw them and they have haunted me, haunted is the wrong word, but they have lived within me, they made an impression on me ever since. And it was well before I can I, like I said, conceived of this conversation or thought about it. But when I thought of this body of work, I thought I had to I had to include you in this conversation for your existing body of work, but also because that made such a huge impression on me. And I'm wondering, so having had that experience, and you after you got that out of your system, as you said, yeah, you you then carried, um I imagine some element of that, no pun intended, into this these new bodies of work.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Well, yeah, 100%, yes. Because when you go through one of those type of operations with accepting your vitality, really is what you're doing, and you you accept the fact that you had a good life, may or may not work out. And uh, and so you're in touch with your conversation with your maker. And also coming out of that body of work, the body of work dealing with Mary had to do for the most part as a meditation and prayer. And that prayer was like I was witnessing these people praying to an inanimate object. Well, they were still praying to a God and their God. And so, where do you find God? That's the big question. And so I was very much, well, uh thinking I'm gonna go back to the landscape. I think I feel closest to the creative source in that conversation than uh any other vehicle that I could generate with the human figure. And so other artists do it their way, but for me, God is in the natural world, and that's where I want to look for it. And so that's where the landscape grew out of that conversation there.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Well, and it's no surprise that here in this sacred land in which we live that has informed culture for thousands of years, that you would be here and do that. So when when you when you go now back to the East Coast and you do your work in Maine, that's the sacredness of that conversation, is what you bring back with you.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Well, you know, selfishly, I just want to have a good time. I just can't laugh. I just I want to make paintings. I I want to wake up and go outside and set my easel up and and uh and see what the day brings. That's such a joy. Um, and because I have no expectation. I have nothing like that except maybe a thought of, well, I'm gonna make some beet soup tonight for dinner or something, you know, but that is put on the side burner immediately when you're in that painting. And uh and then your dogs are running, and you know, it it's really finding joy in your day. And uh, and so, and not, you know, uh it's a nice retreat just to get away from some of the big camuses and the other things that you know are a little bit uh harder to uh take years to, let's say, produce, and uh and so sometimes just like these poems and and things that you I'm all I'm doing is sharing my thoughts of that particular evening.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

And that's it. And I hadn't done that before. And I had written, like, you know, these other narratives, but I hadn't really involved myself in sharing my thoughts as a kind of a stream of consciousness and journey that that particular night generated.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Yeah, well, I love that this next show is gonna be everything from this capturing of this present moment experience by looking into your little fire that you've created to these very lofty, overarching, existential conversations that that these other dialogues are. So it's nice that you're gonna have that full spectrum. And I really appreciate that you said it's about finding joy because this whole conversation is about hopefully bringing us back to that that center of joy that we can find if we are present, when we are present.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Yeah, when you're present, it's it's a hard thing to do. It's really hard. And uh, I guess that's the elixir that I find in the landscape is that when you're and I I enjoy uh cooking, I enjoy gardening. These are small daily tasks that you take pleasure in that really can generate, I think, um, a fuller life. And um and uh and pay attention because things come to you, and then ask, well, why in the hell did that come to me? I tell you right now, that stag painting was right here on the wall, and when I was painting the portrait of that stag, I backed up to look at it from this distance, and I looked to the left, and you can see where the double double doors go to the back. I looked out, and there was the stag staring back at me as I was painting it in front of me on the wall. And so I pay attention to that stuff. It's like, what? It's fortunately, nobody believes this crap, you know, and so I said, let's get my phone, I'll take a picture. Nobody will believe me unless I show them the photograph. And sure enough, I was able to get two pictures. I bought a piece of sculpture of a stag uh that was from Bali, and uh it was a sitting uh you know, laying underneath the bush. And then that same animal, that stag walked down and sat underneath that juniper tree right there and looked back, and it's the same pose as the piece of sculpture that I acquired. I mean, it was like these are the things that you can't make this stuff up. It happens all the time, and you know, and I know I'm living my truth when that stuff comes to me that way. That is like a hundred percent, you're on your target.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Yeah, well, I love that you said too that that you love to garden and that you love to cook and staring at a fire, because those are the kinds of things that maybe we everybody doesn't have access to it, the talent that you have and a studio that you have and a huge space. But in every little moment, you know, staring into the flicker of a candle flame in the moment of gardening and the moment of cooking, that's when those moments of inspiration, and if you're paying attention, those other events, those serendipitous moments can happen. And that's the confirmation that we're like, we're awake, we're taking this in, you know?

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Well, I think it has to do with wonderment, you know, because when you're a child, all of that is new and wonderful and wonder month, and so exciting and so mysterious at the same time. And so, you know, I think you work your entire life trying to get back to that moment when when innocence was allowing you to be imaginative and uh and travel with your own thoughts and and play and joy, all came with that.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

And so that's awesome. Well, um any last things you want to share about this or the show that's coming up? It's coming up in is it in the yeah, the end of April.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

I don't know. I don't I don't recall the exact days.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Well, we'll we'll look it up and we'll put it in the podcast notes. Yeah, it's in the it's at Evo Contemporary, and uh and then so yeah, that's uh and then are you working on uh uh you know after these after you launch these babies, what's coming up next?

SPEAKER_00 57:15

You know what? I have no expectation right now as to uh what I'm gonna be doing. Well, I I kind of do in some ways, you know, these these dead trees that have fallen up in the property in Maine, I'm going to be looking at those. I've started some, you know, they're just all of the roots and and like I said, it was it's almost like human neurological circuitry, you know, and it's quite cool visually to participate with that.

Fade In Gap + Outro

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Yeah, there's a there's an installation artist who is presenting, I or maybe it's already been done, but at Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn, there's an artist who is doing uh an exhibition of the fallen trees on the property of the Greenwood Cemetery. Oh wow. Yeah, and for that, a lot of the same themes there. But I'll get you the her name. I I wish I could remember at the moment. But I had a conversation with the head of artistic programming at Greenwood Cemetery, and he was telling me about some of the artists that they're bringing in to do installation projects. And unlike the park, Prospect Park and Central Park, which were actually built up to create the topography of the land, Greenwood Cemetery actually sits on a glacier. And so all the topography of the land there is the natural glacier. And so they came up with this idea of doing this installation based on the felled trees of that. So it'll be, yeah, that'll be a really interesting kind of tie-in to what you're coming up with.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Yeah, I'm sure there's some beautiful uh rock formations on that property.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

There are.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yeah. It's a really cool. Because they the glaciers oftentimes would drag them vertically and create these walls.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

We're doing a companion exhibition to the podcast called Remains to Be Seen, which is a memorial arts exhibition of work. It's a virtual exhibition, but I would love anything if you have images of your St. Michael, or if you have, or this one, this transformation would be absolutely the epitome of what we're describing. I can't wait to see what you cook up next. And um, I'm gonna turn off the mic and we'll take some pictures of this so that we have some images to show. And thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

That's oh, you're so welcome. My goodness, yes. It's been nice to have this dialogue with you.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

Thank you. So thanks for joining us today. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in-depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.artbridgenm.org and thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.