Episode 51: Unraveling The Deadfall – Joe Holmes’ Evocative Craft

This week on Mandatory Music, we dive into The Deadfall, the latest project from legendary guitarist Joe Holmes. We break down the song’s intricate arrangement, its striking melodies, and its unique use of dissonant notes that set it apart. But we don’t stop there—we explore Holmes’ fascinating journey, from his early days in the music scene to his time with Ozzy Osbourne and beyond. Join us as we unpack the artistry of a guitarist who continues to push boundaries in heavy music.

Listen now and join the conversation!

Here is the link to the Official YouTube video

https://youtu.be/xMIBTGWapGM?si=KRsxMe2zVt60c4ns

Mandatory Music is proudly hosted and produced by Michael Heide and Sebastian Kwapich

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Thanks for listening and keep on rocking

Transcript

Speaker 1

(0:18) Good evening and welcome back to another fine episode of Mandatory Music where we are absolutely yes, we're absolutely positively 100% tariff-free and we always will be. (0:32) There's no tariffs here, there's none of that mumbo-jumbo here. (0:34) I don't know where I'm going with this.(0:36) Well, there will be tomorrow. (0:39) There's going to be some tomorrow, so we'll see how long that lasts. (0:41) But whatever, it doesn't matter.(0:43) Sebastian, it feels like it's been a year since I've seen you. (0:45) Oh man, it's been so long. (0:47) Like literally it's been 24 hours, but that's okay.(0:49) It has, yes. (0:50) It has. (0:50) So we were on fire.(0:52) We decided to do an impromptu one last night and kind of the same idea. (0:57) I don't think it'll be as long as last night's. (0:59) It's the scheduled one, yes.(1:01) Yeah, tonight's the scheduled one, but last night really was episode 50. (1:04) So congratulations.

Speaker 2

(1:05) There we go. (1:06) Yes, we're on our way. (1:07) We're almost at a year.

Speaker 1

(1:08) We're almost at a year. (1:09) We'll be at a year next week.

Speaker 2

(1:11) 52, one episode a week, 52 episodes. (1:13) That's kind of our template.

Speaker 1

(1:15) Sometimes we do a bonus episode. (1:16) Yeah, we missed a couple here and there, but yeah, we're on episode 51. (1:20) Tonight we are talking about a guitar player who, in my opinion, could be severely underrated.(1:28) This dude's got some serious chops. (1:30) He's kind of been in the underground for a long time. (1:35) I'm not sure how many people know who this guy is.(1:37) His name is Joe Holmes.

Speaker 2

(1:38) I have a thought with him.

Speaker 1

(1:41) But you finish your- Yeah, I'll give a little bit of a bio. (1:44) He was in a couple of bands in the 80s. (1:46) He was in a He formed that band in 83.(1:51) Subconscious reference there that just triggered in your mind that you weren't even aware of. (1:55) I love it. (1:56) He also was in Lizzy Borden for a couple of years, and then he reformed Tariff again.(2:00) And then his big break was, well, not big break for him, but poor Jason Becker. (2:06) That was David Lee Roth's guitar player at the time. (2:09) He got diagnosed with ALS, could no longer play.(2:13) Joe Holmes took his place in 1991. (2:15) That didn't last long either. (2:17) And then in a couple of short years, Zach Wild finishes up doing Osmosis with Ozzy.(2:24) And he's like, hey, I'm going to do my Black Label thing. (2:27) You need to find a guitar player.

Speaker 2

(2:28) No, it wasn't Black Label yet.

Speaker 1

(2:31) It was still Pride and Glory, wasn't it?

Speaker 2

(2:33) But he was in talks at that time to be GNR's guitarist with Axl. (2:40) So that's why he couldn't go on tour with Ozzy Osbourne, but he wrote all of Osmosis. (2:45) And then was like, I can't go on tour because I'm probably going on tour with Guns N' Roses.

Speaker 1

(2:49) That's right.

Speaker 2

(2:49) So then Ozzy's like, well, I need to find a guitarist to go on tour.

Speaker 1

(2:52) So the drummer at the time, let's see here, his name was Dean Castronovo, was a friend of Joe's and said, hey, Ozzy's looking for a guitar player. (3:03) Come down and audition.

Speaker 2

(3:05) Real quick, though, a lot of people probably going like, huh? (3:07) Zach Wild was almost in Guns N' Roses in the late 90s.

Speaker 1

(3:11) Yeah. (3:11) Didn't work out, but... (3:13) Kind of glad it didn't, because I think it might have, I don't think that was especially...

Speaker 2

(3:17) He's too muddy.

Speaker 1

(3:18) And yeah, especially in that time period, you know, the other guys just left. (3:21) Axl was kind of just by himself floating around. (3:23) I don't think it would have been a great idea.(3:25) So good thing, way to go, Zach, for just doing your own thing.

Speaker 2

(3:30) Yeah.

Speaker 1

(3:31) So Joe Holmes gets the gig with Ozzy. (3:34) And so the Osmosis tour started, I believe in 95. (3:38) We saw him twice in 95, Joe Holmes.(3:41) We saw the first show where Ozzy...

Speaker 2

(3:43) We saw a hot minute of a concert.

Speaker 1

(3:47) So I can't remember when the show, I think it might have been July. (3:50) This is going way back. (3:51) I didn't do any looking back.(3:53) I'm just going on memory. (3:55) Ozzy wasn't well. (3:56) And they made it through...(3:58) He tried his best. (3:58) His voice was shot and he was sick and he made it through three songs, barely. (4:03) And then he had to...

Speaker 2

(4:03) He didn't even make it through the third song. (4:04) He started and then left the stage like almost immediately.

Speaker 1

(4:07) Goodbye to romance or something. (4:08) And then he had to...

Speaker 2

(4:08) He was paranoid.

Speaker 1

(4:09) Oh, well, there you go.

Speaker 2

(4:10) See? (4:10) They're paranoid. (4:11) I remember it very well because I was super impressed with Joe Holmes because...(4:17) So they start paranoid. (4:18) I'm pretty sure it's paranoid. (4:20) This is what's triggering my memory.

Speaker 1

(4:22) We'll go with his paranoid.

Speaker 2

(4:23) Yeah. (4:24) And then I know that Ozzy sang like the first line or two and then just walked off stage.

Speaker 1

(4:27) Okay.

Speaker 2

(4:28) And Joe Holmes just improvised solo work for the rest of the song.

Speaker 1

(4:33) That's right.

Speaker 2

(4:33) And it was pretty good. (4:34) And then you're like, what is going on? (4:35) Where's Ozzy gone?(4:40) So... (4:40) Because Ozzy's got to go to the hospital or something.

Speaker 1

(4:43) Something. (4:43) His lungs were all whatever. (4:46) So, but Ozzy being a man of his word, he came back.(4:49) He did. (4:49) A few months later and he did the show. (4:50) It wasn't great.(4:51) Like he gave 100% and it sounded pretty bad, to be perfectly honest. (4:55) But that's okay. (4:56) But he came back and honoured the ticket.(4:59) Which I think that you give the guy a ton of respect for, you know, doing what he did. (5:04) Yeah, doing it. (5:05) So Joe Holmes is in the band, I believe, for five years.(5:09) Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2

(5:10) Okay. (5:11) Around there five, six years, I think.

Speaker 1

(5:13) Yeah. (5:13) Well, the Osmosis tour started in August. (5:15) I'm reading this now.(5:16) So boo me. (5:18) I was wrong. (5:19) July, August, whatever.(5:21) You're off by a month. (5:23) So they never really wrote any... (5:26) They never recorded much in the studio.

Speaker 2

(5:28) He wrote one significant song with Ozzy Osbourne. (5:33) And I believe it's on the Beavis and Butthead soundtrack. (5:36) It's called Walk on Water.

Speaker 1

(5:37) And that song has no memory for me whatsoever.

Speaker 2

(5:41) It's like I listened to it for the first time, it feels like 30 minutes ago. (5:46) And I'm like, I don't remember the song at all. (5:49) But apparently it's on some sort of Beavis and Butthead compilation or something.

Speaker 1

(5:54) Oh, okay. (5:55) Yeah, the Do America soundtrack. (5:57) That was a pretty big soundtrack.(5:59) He also co-wrote four songs, three songs on the Down to Earth records. (6:05) Can You Hear Them, Junkie, and That I Never Had. (6:07) I'm not even sure I've ever listened to Down to Earth.(6:10) I don't even know what's on that album. (6:12) I think by 2000, I was kind of... (6:15) Ozzy was kind of like, you know, not really on my radar much.(6:21) Yeah, same. (6:22) But and then he kind of disappears.

Speaker 2

(6:26) So yeah, I have a saying for him as I was kind of exploring a little bit of Joe Holmes this weekend, and he's the guitarist that never was for Ozzy Osbourne. (6:40) He's literally the guitarist that never was, because he was supposed to replace Zach Wilde. (6:44) But then Zach Wilde kept coming back to the band.(6:46) For the next 25 years, Zach Wilde kept coming back and saying like, okay, I'm going to go with Ozzy to record this album. (6:54) So what does that tell you? (6:55) Does Ozzy not trust in Joe Holmes' ability to help him write guitar riffs?(7:01) Or is he just so comfortable with Zach Wilde that he would just call on Zach and Zach would obviously come back and go, okay, I'll help you out and write some music with you.

Speaker 1

(7:11) I think it's the latter.

Speaker 2

(7:14) Comfort with Ozzy and Zach?

Speaker 1

(7:16) Absolutely, because the track record's there. (7:18) The hits are there. (7:19) You know, the Mama I'm Coming Home, the No More Tears, Miracle Man, which apparently I was watching a video on Zach doing Miracle Man.

Speaker 2

(7:26) That's my favorite Ozzy song of Zach Wilde is Miracle Man.

Speaker 1

(7:31) In Zach's words, literally, he's like, it's Foxy Lady by Jimi Hendrix just sped up. (7:36) I can see that. (7:37) It's exactly the same.(7:38) Anyways, we're not talking about Zach Wilde tonight. (7:41) But I thought that was a funny little tidbit. (7:44) So years go by and he's, you know, I've looked everywhere for stuff that he's released, things he's done.(7:53) There's nothing.

Speaker 2

(7:53) He's never really got there in the music world. (7:59) And he's a ridiculous amount of talent. (8:03) So yeah, I mean, I guess he toured with Ozzy and David Lee Ross.(8:07) So that is pretty significant, right?

Speaker 1

(8:09) Absolutely. (8:11) So in 2012, he has a new band called Pharmacos. (8:15) And then Robert Trujillo from Metallica is in that band, along with Brooks Wackerman, who's now the Avenged Sevenfold drummer.(8:22) I can't remember what band he was in before. (8:24) But dude's an amazing drummer. (8:26) And then a bunch of songs come out.(8:28) And then, again, not much time goes by. (8:32) And now he's released two songs in the last couple of months. (8:34) And we're going to talk about one of them.(8:36) This has been a roundabout way to get there. (8:38) But I want to give a little history of this before. (8:41) So he's got a new song called Deadfall.(8:43) And it just popped up in my YouTube feed. (8:46) And I was like, oh, I know Joe Holmes. (8:47) And that name's familiar.(8:48) And I saw, you know, Robert Trujillo, Mike Borden. (8:51) Mike Borden famously of Faith No More, obviously Ozzy Osbourne and Jerry Cantrell. (8:55) Rob was also in Jerry's band as well.(8:57) So it's got some history for us, too. (8:58) We've talked about Jerry. (8:59) We've talked about Austin Chains.(9:00) We've talked Metallica to death. (9:05) But so this new song, Deadfall. (9:08) And my instant reaction, I think we might have differing opinions on the influences on this song.(9:14) Sure. (9:16) But the first thing I heard, like the first, the intro to the song, to me, do you know Robin Trower at all? (9:27) Robin Trower, T-R-O-W-E-R.(9:30) OK, look up a song called Bridge of Sighs. (9:34) And it has that vibe. (9:37) It's a classic 70s rock song.(9:38) It's awesome. (9:40) And it has that kind of vibe to me, the beginning of the song. (9:44) And I know you said something.(9:46) What did you tell me? (9:47) It was at the very, when you first heard it, you're like, this is so. (9:51) Black Sabbath.(9:52) Black Sabbath. (9:53) Yes. (9:56) And I'm still, I've listened to the song about 50 times since I first heard it last week.(10:01) I'm still struggling to find a little bit of the Black Sabbath in there.

Speaker 2

(10:06) It reminds me of the song Black Sabbath.

Speaker 1

(10:10) OK.

Speaker 2

(10:11) Like, if you look at the main riff, it plays with diminished sevenths and stuff like that. (10:18) So it plays the main riff, and then it goes down a half step, which Black Sabbath is famous for. (10:22) Like, the actual song Black Sabbath is like, it has that like, doom, devil chord progression.

Speaker 1

(10:30) See, and that's the one song I was trying, I could, that song wasn't in my head. (10:33) I was thinking of like, the faster Paranoids and stuff like that. (10:37) So, yeah.

Speaker 2

(10:37) No, like, listen to the opening of the song, the actual song Black Sabbath, and that's.

Speaker 1

(10:44) That's what you get?

Speaker 2

(10:45) That's what I'm thinking when I hear it. (10:47) Like, that's my first thought. (10:49) I'm like, this sounds like Black Sabbath, the song Black Sabbath.(10:52) Just with that, like, I mean, it's not the same riff, but just with the same fact that it like, it slides down a half a step to get into that evil sound, and then goes back up to that root note, basically.

Speaker 1

(11:03) Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, because I have it on right now. (11:07) But funny enough, because I was thinking like, later in the song, when we get to near the end, there's a lot of Randy Rhoads in the song. (11:15) You know why?(11:16) Why? (11:17) Tell me, Seb, why, why, why do I think there's. (11:19) This is even before I knew the correlation between the two.

Speaker 2

(11:24) Because Randy Rhoads was his guitar teacher. (11:28) So, Joe Holmes is a student of Randy Rhoads.

Speaker 1

(11:31) Yes. (11:31) So, that puts Joe Holmes at a vintage. (11:33) Joe Holmes is older.(11:34) He's six, he's the same age, he's 62. (11:36) Three? (11:37) Sixty, yeah, he's old.(11:38) Like, he was born in 63, so 62. (11:41) So, yeah, he's been around the block. (11:44) He's been around for a long time.(11:47) And the more I listen to the song, because it reminds me of the song, really reminded me of Diary of a Madman, especially structurally. (11:56) Like, it's got that same sort of, it's obviously not as intricate as what Diary is, because Randy, Randy's like, he's the goat, right? (12:04) He's Saint Rhoads, as Zach, I think, what does Zach call him?(12:07) Saint? (12:07) Is he a saint? (12:08) Is he a saint, or is he like the pope?(12:10) Zach likes to use, you know, like Dario's father, and then Father Kirk, Father Everybody, and Bishop Disguised. (12:17) Yeah, I'm pretty sure Randy's.

Speaker 2

(12:19) That's why he uses a lot of those references.

Speaker 1

(12:20) He does.

Speaker 2

(12:21) I mean, I guess, just to clarify, the song Black Sabbath, by Black Sabbath, is not afraid.

Speaker 1

(12:30) Off the album, Black Sabbath.

Speaker 2

(12:30) Off the album, Black Sabbath, is not afraid to go into dissonance, that dissonant, harsh sounds. (12:37) And the main riff for this definitely goes into, like, that dissonant sound, where you're just like, and then it resolutes.

Speaker 1

(12:45) Yeah.

Speaker 2

(12:46) So it plays a lot with dissonance, and I've noticed that about Joe Holmes. (12:49) He's not scared to go into, like, dissonant land. (12:52) So he's so different from, like, a Kirk Hammett, for example, who, like, pretty much stays in the pentatonic scale the whole time.(12:58) Just all the sweet notes, instead of, like, getting into those, like, irregular notes that kind of don't belong. (13:05) They kind of work, also, in a solo or a riff.

Speaker 1

(13:07) Or in a solo, sort of on its side a little bit, and then he can resolve later.

Speaker 2

(13:10) A bit of, like, some kind of irritation in the sound, so that when you resolve that sound, it's more welcoming, that resolution, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 1

(13:21) Yeah. (13:21) And I think that's what sort of stuck out to me with this song, is all of that sort of, like you say, the notes, those diminished notes that don't really belong so much, they really speak to me. (13:31) It's got this, like...

Speaker 2

(13:33) Oh, you notice them.

Speaker 1

(13:34) Oh, like, they punch you in the face. (13:37) Oh, absolutely. (13:37) And I think that's ominous.

Speaker 2

(13:39) It's something off. (13:41) Ominous and off. (13:42) But I don't mean off in a bad way.(13:44) I mean, it's just, like, it lingers with you, that sound. (13:47) That's, like, haunting in your mind, right?

Speaker 1

(13:49) So, yeah. (13:51) And I believe, don't quote me, I think the... (13:54) Because he's using an effect in the beginning of the song.(13:56) And it's an effect that you don't hear very often, ever.

Speaker 2

(14:00) And what is it? (14:01) Do you know?

Speaker 1

(14:01) I believe it's a roto vibe. (14:04) Oh, wow. (14:04) Okay.(14:04) Um, I think. (14:07) Because Zach Wilde used a lot of roto vibe in the... (14:09) I don't mean to keep comparing him to Zach, but Zach used to use a ton of roto vibe back in the day.

Speaker 2

(14:14) You can totally compare him to Zach.

Speaker 1

(14:17) It's similar. (14:18) I think it's...

Speaker 2

(14:18) They're similar ages, they played for the same person, so...

Speaker 1

(14:21) Yeah, it's... (14:22) And I'm pretty sure, like, on the song, on a couple songs off Book of Shadows, Zach leaned into the roto vibe. (14:29) And it's a really...(14:31) I can't even explain.

Speaker 2

(14:32) I'd have to pull up... (14:34) Right now, what a roto vibe pedal is. (14:36) Please, thank you.

Speaker 1

(14:36) Because I can't explain what... (14:38) It's like a chorus and like a... (14:40) Like a phaser and...

Speaker 2

(14:41) Oh, okay. (14:42) I have it right here if you want to give me the actual description. (14:45) Yeah.(14:45) So this is off Google, so take it with a grain of salt.

Speaker 1

(14:48) It knows everything.

Speaker 2

(14:49) No, it knows everything. (14:51) The roto vibe is a chorus vibrato effect that can simulate rotating speaker sounds popularized by Hendrix and many others. (14:59) This is a very expressive effect, thanks to its built-in real-time control.(15:05) So it's like a choral thing that, like, kind of...

Speaker 1

(15:09) It's kind of... (15:10) Yeah, it's like... (15:10) It's called a roto.(15:11) Yeah, it's like... (15:12) Yeah, it's rotating the sound. (15:14) And it's basically...(15:15) It's used like a wah pedal, so you can... (15:17) Your foot controls it, so you can give it more, you can give it like a volume pedal, or whatever. (15:21) Give it more, give it less.(15:23) And because in the video...

Speaker 2

(15:25) Okay, so I guess the difference between the roto vibe and a wah pedal, specifically, a wah pedal uses bass and treble. (15:32) Yes. (15:32) So it goes into, like, a bass note or a high note.(15:35) It's the same note, but it highlights the bass or the treble of the note, whereas a roto vibe, I think, alters where the sound is coming from, in terms of, like, mimicking the speaker rotation type...

Speaker 1

(15:48) It goes heavy into the chorus, and then it sort of spins the sound around. (15:54) Look at us. (15:54) We're getting super techy.(15:55) I love it. (15:56) This is amazing.

Speaker 2

(15:57) I hear that now.

Speaker 1

(15:58) Actually, just from playing the song from the beginning, it kind of, like, yeah, it makes sense to me. (16:02) Yes. (16:03) And so it's, like, littered throughout the whole song, and it's a very thick sounding.(16:06) It helps. (16:07) You know what? (16:07) It adds to the dissonance of the riff, too.(16:09) It does.

Speaker 2

(16:10) Because the harsh note rings, but then it, like, spins.

Speaker 1

(16:14) And I think that's what sort of really bit with me, was, like, man, the tail of the intro was like, whoa! (16:21) Like, that does not... (16:23) Like you said, it's off, but it's, like, it's compelling at the same time.(16:26) So I thought it was really cool.

Speaker 2

(16:29) And Macken is... (16:30) I will tell you right now that I will guarantee you that a lot of people that listen to this song will be like, I don't get it. (16:38) Probably.(16:39) They'll be like, I don't know if I like this. (16:40) I don't get it.

Speaker 1

(16:41) I played it for my son, and his music tastes are all over the place. (16:46) He's 60, and they're everywhere. (16:48) He likes rap.(16:49) He likes, he likes... (16:51) Obviously, he loves Metallica, and he loves all that stuff. (16:53) But he doesn't like when he tells me, dad, stop playing your weird music.(16:57) So this is, this song would be. (16:58) This is weird music to him. (16:59) This is weird to him.(17:01) I'm like, what's wrong with it? (17:02) He's like, well, it sucks. (17:02) I'm like, well, can you tell me why it sucks?(17:04) He's like, it doesn't sound good to my ear. (17:07) Oh, okay. (17:08) I'm like, well, I think it sounds awesome.

Speaker 2

(17:10) Yeah, I can 100% understand why though too. (17:13) It's because it definitely plays around, like we've said this many times, but it plays around with a lot of dissidents.

Speaker 1

(17:19) Yeah.

Speaker 2

(17:20) And so like the average listener will be like, this doesn't sound good to me.

Speaker 1

(17:23) But. (17:24) Yeah. (17:25) And he doesn't have the years of service that you and I have, or the depth of knowledge that we have in understanding what.

Speaker 2

(17:32) The concept of the song is, right?

Speaker 1

(17:35) And I think maybe if he, if I got him done, probably not because. (17:39) But this is, this is, this is doom metal.

Speaker 2

(17:42) It's broody. (17:43) It's like, it's meant, it's meant to live in that pocket of like irregularity. (17:48) Yeah.(17:48) You know, of this is the tone and the sound and we're going for an effect. (17:53) I do have one gripe, but I think it's very tactical. (17:56) And why?(17:58) Yes. (17:58) I. (18:00) It was just wait the entire time I'm listening to the song, I'm waiting for them to accelerate it.

Speaker 1

(18:05) And it never, never really does really does.

Speaker 2

(18:08) Right. (18:09) So you can say that they kind of quicken it up a bit in the solo, but. (18:14) The drums just feel like they lag behind so much.

Speaker 1

(18:17) Like I just want the pace to quicken a little bit. (18:20) It's like they're halftime and then it just goes to normal time. (18:22) And they go back to halftime.

Speaker 2

(18:24) It's really slow song.

Speaker 1

(18:25) Yes. (18:26) I'd be curious. (18:27) The BPM has got to be pretty low.(18:30) Yeah, it's gotta be. (18:31) It's probably in the 70s. (18:33) My guess would be in the 70s, but it.(18:36) And for a seven minute song to, you know, obviously you get that really cool bridge part after the first solo, because there's a whole bunch of guitar solos because the dude's a guitar, he's a guitar maniac. (18:47) He's so good. (18:49) Yeah.(18:49) He plays a guitar like what behind my shoulder, a Fender Strat, but he's got a humbucker in the bridge pickup. (18:56) And I have just regular crappy 1991 pickups in my 91 Strat.

Speaker 2

(19:01) There's a website called tunebat.com. (19:05) Okay. (19:05) Shout out to tunebat.com if you want to sponsor this podcast.

Speaker 1

(19:08) We're taking sponsorship deals right now. (19:10) We'll put a link in the show notes for your website.

Speaker 2

(19:13) But it does tell you, I don't know how accurate this is, but according to this, the BPM for the deadfall is 102 beat. (19:20) 102. (19:21) So it's slow.(19:23) And it also says it's in B major, but you know, take that as you will.

Speaker 1

(19:28) Well, from what I figured out on my guitar, it's tuned down half a step. (19:32) Probably. (19:32) Because my guitar is tuned down half.(19:34) Because I was going to play some Alice in Chains last night, and then I was having some. (19:37) Well, I was having some audio problems and then whatever. (19:41) I didn't.(19:42) Maybe the next Alice in Chains song we do, or some other song. (19:46) I'll maybe play my guitar poorly for everybody to listen to. (19:50) Do it.(19:52) Do it. (19:52) So after the first solo, there's this really cool bridge section, which really reminded me of Diary of a Madman. (19:59) Like the end of Diary where it's like this really sort of strange, sort of like almost arpeggiated, like palm muted thing.(20:09) And I was just like, what the hell is this? (20:11) I'm like it. (20:13) And it just, it just, it sucks me in like weird, not weird, off the beaten path riffs.(20:21) And that's what this whole song is. (20:22) Is this off the beaten path? (20:23) It's, it's, you know, like it's, it's not complicated.(20:27) It's got for the solos are complicated. (20:29) It's pretty simple, really. (20:31) But that end part, I can't even describe.(20:33) I wish I would have more time to learn it so I could have played it. (20:35) But I literally, I've been home for just like you, not very long. (20:39) And I didn't, I worked all day.(20:40) I didn't have time to really sit down and.

Speaker 2

(20:42) Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1

(20:43) Dive into it because I really wanted to. (20:45) I got the intro pretty quick in a couple of minutes. (20:48) But, but yeah, it's just really cool.(20:51) I don't even know. (20:51) I don't know how to explain it. (20:52) You might be able to explain it better.

Speaker 2

(20:58) Which, which part?

Speaker 1

(20:59) It is, I'm going to, I'm trying to type for the solo. (21:06) It's around the five minute mark.

Speaker 2

(21:10) All right, let me, let me queue it up for myself.

Speaker 1

(21:13) And it just, yeah, it'd be right around just after five. (21:18) And it just, it's this really neat single, single string, single notes.

Speaker 2

(21:25) Work there that he does, yeah.

Speaker 1

(21:27) And yeah.

Speaker 2

(21:28) The palm muted part.

Speaker 1

(21:29) Yeah.

Speaker 2

(21:30) Yeah.

Speaker 1

(21:30) It's so cool. (21:31) It's kind of like.

Speaker 2

(21:32) It's nice because it completely breaks the tone of the, of the song.

Speaker 1

(21:38) Yeah.

Speaker 2

(21:39) Because it's very dissonant and very ringy and choral. (21:42) Because he, he lets a lot of the notes ring and, and, and, and sing openly. (21:48) So he doesn't like mute them.(21:50) But that part, he palm mutes that whole entire thing.

Speaker 1

(21:53) It's actually, as I'm listening, it's the intro palm muted. (21:58) That's what it is.

Speaker 2

(21:58) But it's a lot faster though.

Speaker 1

(22:00) He was playing a lot more notes. (22:01) Yes. (22:02) But it's the same chord structure as the intro.(22:05) And then he plays this absolutely phenomenal solo over top of it.

Speaker 2

(22:11) It's a very good feel, feeling soloist too.

Speaker 1

(22:14) Right. (22:15) It's like, why hasn't this guy been in more bands or done more stuff or.

Speaker 2

(22:19) That's a good question. (22:20) And honestly, there is a plethora of musicians that are left in the dust that should have been great, but are not for whatever reason.

Speaker 1

(22:29) Yes.

Speaker 2

(22:29) So, you know, maybe, maybe he'll find his, his voice and.

Speaker 1

(22:33) Maybe. (22:34) Maybe. (22:35) I'm going to bring up Zach Wilde one more time because.

Speaker 2

(22:38) You can bring up Zach Wilde all the time, man.

Speaker 1

(22:41) It was from a couple of years ago when they were, they were, they were releasing their last record, the Doom Crew one. (22:47) And he was talking about the eighties and how everybody. (22:52) He had Satriani, Vi, Yngwie, all these guys, Eddie, you name it.(22:57) These guys were doing all their things and they all had their thing. (23:01) Like, you know, Eddie hit the tapping. (23:03) Yngwie was a sweet picking.(23:05) Everybody played their harmonic minor scales. (23:08) And Zach's like, okay, I'm getting into this Aussie band. (23:10) You're giving me a box of crayons.(23:12) I need something. (23:13) And I need to do something to stand apart from everybody else. (23:16) He's like, okay, I have a box of 60 crayons.(23:19) I take four of them and throw the rest out. (23:21) I'm left with four crayons. (23:22) What do I do?(23:24) Pinch harmonics, pentatonic scale. (23:26) Cause nobody was really doing it. (23:28) And he's like, that's what I did.(23:30) And he's like.

Speaker 2

(23:30) He's known for pinch harmonics, man.

Speaker 1

(23:32) Yeah. (23:32) And that's why he did it because nobody else was doing it. (23:36) And I think that's brilliant.(23:37) I think maybe. (23:39) This is no detriment to anybody, but maybe. (23:42) Cause so many guitar players are like everybody else and sound kind of like everybody else.(23:48) But don't have that. (23:50) Okay, I'm taking the crayon box and dumping everything but two. (23:52) And I'm going to go with these two and I'm going to create with these two.(23:56) And make a masterpiece with these two colors in my hand. (23:58) And that's it. (23:59) And that's what Zach was able to do.(24:01) Like take Foxy Lady and turn it into Miracle Man. (24:04) Brilliant.

Speaker 2

(24:05) Yeah.

Speaker 1

(24:06) And not everybody can do that. (24:07) And that's no detriment to Joe Holmes' skill or anybody else's songwriting talents. (24:12) It's just some can take it that extra step to get to the promised land and some can't.

Speaker 2

(24:20) Yeah, pinch harmonics are okay. (24:22) For those that don't know what a pinch harmonic is, it's when you artificially harmonize the string. (24:31) It's also known as squelch picking.(24:33) So the concept of it is that you play a note and you hit it with your pick, but you also at the same time mute it with the edge of your thumb or a little bit of your skin. (24:46) So it's almost like you're pinching the string when you pluck it between the pick and the flesh of your thing. (24:53) And what it does is it silences most of the frequency of the string, but rings really high so you get that kind of squeal thing.(25:02) So Miracle Man is a perfect example of Zach Wilde doing pinch harmonics when he's like da, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. (25:10) Wow, where he does that squeal-y thing. (25:12) So it literally sounds like the guitar squeals.(25:15) And Zach Wilde's famous for that at this point. (25:19) It's famous, famous. (25:20) Not easy to do.(25:21) I'll tell you, it's almost infinitely harder to do on an acoustic guitar than it is on an electric.

Speaker 1

(25:28) And we've seen him do it on an acoustic guitar as well.

Speaker 2

(25:30) Yes, we have.

Speaker 1

(25:31) Yes, we have.

Speaker 2

(25:31) Yeah, so it's funny that you'd say that, because I was just talking with somebody else about Zach Wilde, and if you think of pitch harmonics, there's one person that comes to mind. (25:43) It's Zach Wilde. (25:44) He's the top one.

Speaker 1

(25:45) Yeah, he's like the goat of the pitch.

Speaker 2

(25:47) He does a lot.

Speaker 1

(25:47) Yeah.

Speaker 2

(25:48) Literally, that and fuzzy drop detuning. (25:50) So he usually does drop detuning, a lot of fuzz with pitch harmonics.

Speaker 1

(25:55) Yeah, pretty funny. (25:58) But yeah, I urge everyone to go out, it's on YouTube, look up Joe Holmes, it's called The Deadfall. (26:04) The video's cool.(26:05) It's got Mike Borden and Mr. Trujillo playing together in a room, and Rob's bass, if you put some good headphones on, because obviously the bass isn't super prevalent in the song, it's thundering. (26:15) It's like, why can't he play like that when he's in Metallica? (26:18) It's like, man.

Speaker 2

(26:19) He's up there for that reason though, right?

Speaker 1

(26:21) No, like the runway Joe gives him compared to what he's needed to do in his main band are two completely different things, and Rob sounded like he was having just a heyday with being able to let loose and playing whatever he wanted, and it was going to sound great anyway, because the dude's a monster. (26:39) But yeah, Joe Holmes, Deadfall, it's somebody like, I know we profiled Jimi Hendrix, this is not the same thing. (26:47) It's just.(26:48) I saw the song. (26:49) I heard the song. (26:49) I saw the video.(26:50) I'm like, oh my God, this is awesome. (26:51) I got super excited.

Speaker 2

(26:53) Mike's a super fan of this song.

Speaker 1

(26:55) I am. (26:55) I love it.

Speaker 2

(26:55) I've been going off for days about, oh, he's on here. (26:57) This song is so good. (26:59) Like, I listened to it a bunch today, and it's just.(27:02) I will preface that, or preface that, or highlight that comment that this song is not going to be for everybody. (27:07) I will guarantee you there are going to be people that are listening that say, I don't understand why people like this song.

Speaker 1

(27:12) We should probably shout out the vocalists, because I think that would be rude of us not to, because the dude is an amazing singer. (27:20) I'm looking up his name right now, and you'll probably get it faster than me, because I'm talking.

Speaker 2

(27:25) No, I'm looking at Joe Holmes. (27:27) I'm just looking at his Spotify playlist, right, and he's like, this song only has 4,000 likes on Spotify. (27:33) So, he's not someone that's popular by any stretch of the imagination.

Speaker 1

(27:38) He's almost like an underground artist at this point, right?

Speaker 2

(27:40) He's an underground artist that kind of like, never found his way, almost. (27:45) He was supposed to replace Zach Wilde and Ozzy Osbourne, and that was his entry into stardom, but for whatever reason, he never got off the rails, or not off the rails. (27:57) He never got off the rails.

Speaker 1

(27:58) On a crazy train? (27:59) Oh, come on.

Speaker 2

(28:00) I missed it. (28:01) It was there. (28:01) It was right there.

Speaker 1

(28:03) I couldn't help myself.

Speaker 2

(28:06) And the Joe Holmes experiment died in, I think it was 2001, when Ozzy Osbourne asked Zach to come back into the band to write for the new, whatever album they were working on at that point. (28:18) But yeah, Joe Holmes never got his time in the sun with Ozzy. (28:23) So, you know, it's kind of sad, because he's extremely talented, right?(28:30) So, what do you do?

Speaker 1

(28:32) So, apparently, the singer's name is Robert Locke, and... (28:35) Robert. (28:38) All right.(28:39) I like it. (28:41) He didn't write the lyrics. (28:42) Brent Hoffert wrote the lyrics.(28:44) I don't know who that is, but... (28:46) But yeah, the dude's awesome. (28:48) I want to find music that he's done, because he's got a really cool sort of...(28:53) It's a very kind of grungy voice. (28:55) I mean, it's not pleasant. (28:57) It sounds like something from the early to mid-90s, but with a real metal tinge.

Speaker 2

(29:03) He does fit the song very well.

Speaker 1

(29:06) He fits that atmosphere of a real dissonant sort of melodic, broody song very well. (29:13) And it's... (29:14) Yeah.(29:15) Robert Locke. (29:16) He's awesome. (29:18) I think that's it.(29:19) Don't you think that's it?