Why 90% of Hunters Pick The WRONG SUPPRESSOR - Cliff Brewer

We explain suppressors for the hunting use cases, from basic concepts to advanced.

Most hunters obsess over decibels and a do-it-all can they move between rifles. This conversation makes the case that they've got it backwards — that length is the real king of a hunting suppressor, that the published sound numbers are mostly unreliable, and that a suppressor belongs to one rifle. We get into the engineering, the failure modes, and where this fast-moving market is actually headed.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I go to Shot Show and it's like, holy shit, dude, 500 new suppressor companies, right? And they're all making suppressors and they're all pumped about it. Oh, these are like it's gonna get cheap here. Things are gonna get cheap here. It's gonna get easy to get them. There's gonna be there's so many guys making them. Then I pull my head out of my ass a little bit and I look around and I realize that, yeah, most hunters still like like I I'm I don't know what it is. Maybe you know the numbers. I bet it's 85% of hunting rifles have never had one on them. Easily, Cliff, uh great to have you, dude. Uh it is it's kind of mind-boggling to me because I know very few people named Cliff. Uh, so every time I say it, it it makes me laugh a little bit, even though that's my name. So, everybody, I've got Cliff Brewer from Unknown Suppressors on. And uh, I think I've got hard questions for you, Cliff, to be honest with you. Um, but maybe, maybe to those that are up to speed on suppressors, they may think they're very basic questions, but I think that's kind of where I want to take this, dude. I want to get learn a lot from you, but I also want to get like a like a basic understanding of suppressors. I know that I'm I'm I'm not alone. I mean, obviously I've been shooting suppressors a ton, man, but I think I'm with a lot of other hunters in the sense that suppressor is a suppressor, right? So that's kind of like my understanding, either unsuppressed or suppressed, right? It's gonna hurt my ears or ears or not. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. I want to give people some depth to that because we're all exposed to this new world where I think that 99% of hunters in five years are gonna use them outside of like the the communist states, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

So I was just gonna say that, yeah. California, they wish that yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So uh man, um, let's start with that, Cliff. How does a how does a suppressor work?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

From uh 10,000 foot level, yes, um with a suppressor, then the name of the game is to trap gas as as long as possible. I mean, that is it. I guess if your ultimate goal is maximum sound suppression, um, there's a lot of goals for suppressors, but if you're if your goal is maximum sound suppression, you're trying to grab the hold on to the gas as long as possible.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

And then everybody's different elaborate suppressor designs are all trying to accomplish the same goal, and that is trap the gas as long as possible. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

And and this is done through the internal like baffling mechanism.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Correct, yeah. Yeah, baffles and shells, and there's all kinds of crazy, especially with printing, there's all kinds of crazy designs that people are using.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, and I want to get I want to get into the whole 3dd printing thing, but but I need another level of explanation, man. So you trap the gas, why does that make it quieter?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Uh, because it dumps a whole bunch of energy. So it energy as a whole can be like a a good analogy would be like your car engine. Um, I think a I could be way off on this, but I think a a very efficient engine is like 40% efficient, meaning 40% of the energy that goes in as gasoline becomes forward momentum. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

So if you think about energy in that way, right, it's it's a loud, violent explosion. Your your kind of goal with a suppressor is to hang on to it, trap it, and make it dump as much energy into the trying to destroy the suppressor as it can.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Right? So that that comes out as heat, it comes out as all the forces on all the different um surfaces inside of the suppressor. It's trying to blow the baffles out of it, right? It's trying to destroy it and dumping a bunch of energy at the same time, which is you know, fatiguing a suppressor, and to some extent, you could theoretically, over time with enough rounds, start breaking your suppressor from fatigue, but ultimately people just don't shoot that much with you know they're over-engineered to the point where it's not gonna happen functionally.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, I got you. So tell me where I'm wrong in this base level uh understanding. There's an explosion in the cartridge, right? We have a set amount of like energy that's gonna be used on the bullet, forward momentum in the in the bullet, basically, right? And then the other shit that comes out is noise, uh I you know, the the recoil, the muzzle flip, all of these things. That's outside of that. The noise component, it it by by how how are you changing it? You're you're you're changing it from noise to what you the to to like hostly okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, so you're just I mean it it's the energy is coming from the expanding gases, right? That gunpowder is just stored energy pellets, and when you ignite them, all of that, you know, a crazy chemical reaction happens and it generates a ton of gas really, really fast. Yep. And um all you just your goal is just to hang on to that gas, slow it down, and um absorb heat. It's kind of something you battle is heat, and when you see a suppressor that's really quiet, it's unless it's got a big thermal mass, right? Like it's heavy, um, they're gonna get hot instantly. Because they're just getting soaked with heat instantly, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, I gotcha. Um t touch on that quickly, like why it matters for for let's let's to the extent that we can, let's talk about this from a hunter's standpoint.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Yeah.

unknown 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Like so, why does the heat matter?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Um, okay. So something that if if you don't hunt with a suppressor, you're gonna be not used to is a hot suppressor on the end of your barrel is going to create what's called mirage, which is, I mean, everybody should know what mirage is, but it's basically blurry, wavy lines that are obscuring your view. And if you're shooting a suppressor that gets hot really fast, um without a cover, you um it's it's gonna affect your ability to see what you're shooting at. But in a big way. Is it is it super conditioned based or not really? Not really, because the order of magnitude of the heat that um I don't know how it's the right way to put this. You know, it uh in a hunting season, you're gonna range from let's say zero degrees to sixty degrees F. Yep. But you know, that suppressor's getting to 800, so you're you're playing with 10% of the scale of what that heat is. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, like the relative difference is so huge, it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 60 degrees or whatever. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, dude, how how do you how do you think about it as a hunter and a guy that makes suppressors?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Like if a guy is just go ahead. Just sorry to touch on so one thing that does help you a ton is wind, because it'll just blow the mirage right off your suppressor. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I gotcha. Um taking wind out of the uh out of like the thought process, uh like how many shots should do you do you feel like a like if I'm testing suppressors as a hunter, you know, if if I was like if hypothetically I was given the laws and stuff, this isn't a possibility. But if I was a hunter and I could go test five suppressors, like how what what would what's sufficient for a hunter before they get mirage?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I would I don't know. Everybody has a different standard, I guess, and everybody kills every animal with one shot, right? So uh I I think if you can if you can still see your target at five rounds, like I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. It gets a little squirrely sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah, no, no, no. I mean that's yeah, you get to five rounds pretty quick. Um yeah, it and then and then you go to and then there's like the practical side of it, you know. Uh Cliff, like it even if you're hunting, you still end up shooting. I think people might underestimate, like, okay, this this suppressor gives off mirage in two or three rounds. Uh well, that's maybe that's fine for hunting, or you think it's fine for hunting, but you still got to zero the rifle. You know, and it's a and then it's a bitch whenever you get suppressor, you get miraged like two or three.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Or it's as bad as it's as bad as parallax error, right? Yeah, you're just you may be zeroing it, but you have no idea if you're zeroing it or not. Or your group, you know, in in your mind is all this your your your rifle, you put the suppressor on, but but because there's instantly mirage, like your groups open up like this, but it's not, it's not, you know, you're just aiming at a different spot every time it does a mirage. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yep, no, I gotcha. So that that makes sense. And so that let's come back to the the suppressor, you know, the the the process that the suppressor's doing. Because in my mind, dude, I I'm naive to how you guys make them, but to me, it's a fairly simple, simple mechanical object in the end. I'm not, I'm not, I don't know anything about the manufacturing prop manufacturing process. So I've seen your guys' 3D printers, like that doesn't it doesn't look simple to me. Looks pretty, it looks like freaking magic, to be honest. But there's got to be these like fundamental trade-offs. Um one, is that true? Is the technology still shifting where where maybe that's not true? Or is there just things that are set in stone in terms of trade-offs? Guys, biltong, okay? I've been obsessed with this stuff for three or four years. Ever since I got on a keto, carnivore, paleo-esque type of diet, I've had a hard time finding healthy snacks. Biltong is a great option, particularly the slabs that have this fat on the side. That's where your energy is if you're a fat burner like me. Super simple ingredients in this, guys. Literally, one, two, three, four, five ingredients. Pair that to your gas station jerky, a great snack in the backcountry or just day-to-day. Biltong Depot is a huge supporter of my content. Go to their website, biltongdepot.com. Use my code CliffGrayC-L-I-F-F-G-R-A-Y at checkout for 10% off. And to support this content. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Uh when you so I I would say for we I was just talking to Ken about this earlier. Um I would say we're what what we're kind of accomplishing right now is we are like with the advancements and developments happening, is is we're accomplishing stuff in like suppression in suppressors that are say like a five or six inch suppressor that it used to take a massive eight-inch suppressor in. And and the reason I say it like that is because we're I mean we're pushing the like the boundary of how quiet you can actually make it because your bullet is supersonic coming out of it.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Right. And you're gonna be somewhere if you get down to that 126 to 130 dB, like that's as quiet as it as it's gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah, explain that, Cliff. Assume assume that I I'm like, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Like the the supersonic or the crap and all that.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

We can we can say what uh do you understand what supersonic is, right? Supersonic speeds? Yeah, it's it's it's breaking the sound barrier, right? Yeah, so uh bullets are breaking the sound barrier, obviously. They're they're well over the speed of sound traveling to a target, and and there's a shockwave in front of the bullet that is called a a supersonic shockwave. Um when it goes by, there's basically a pressure wave that hits your ears and it makes a snap. And yeah, I mean that's what microphones are measuring is that pressure. When they're measuring sound, they're measuring pressure. Yeah. Um, and your microphone picks up that pressure wave. Um, and the same thing is do.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

And and that's like for the hunting context, we don't need to go and like subsonic stuff, but I mean, night, I mean everything that we shoot is supersonic, correct? So you basically what you're saying is there's a bottom to noise suppression that matters.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah. So basically, what I what I was getting at with like accomplishing with smaller suppressors, what you could with you needed to do with bigger suppressors, is like when you move up in cartridge size, there's obviously more gas, right? So a 223 has exponentially less gas than a 300 ROM, right? So what we're able to what we're kind of accomplishing is is we're getting to that floor, the 126 to 130 is kind of what we're measuring the supersonic crack at. Um we're getting to that floor with a smaller footprint with bigger cartridges.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah, I got yeah, you're just optimizing. They and they the the trade-offs, dude, our our uh volume of the suppressor, which is which accounts for length and diameter. Um and uh well, I mean that's it, that right?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

That versus noise. Am I thinking about it right now? They're the whatever technology is inside of them plays a bigger role than any of the other oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah. I got you. So so the the way the internal workings are uh is is a bigger issue, it is like a bigger issue than length. So it does, it does uh what I'm getting at is that you're okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Let me put it a different way. The like if you if you're using say you're not let's say you're not at uh you need okay. Let's say there's gonna be a floor for a cartridge size, right? Okay, right? So you can't put a one-inch diameter suppressor that's three inches long and suppress a roam. There's just flat out not enough volume. It doesn't matter what technology you have inside of it.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

So that that would be an extreme example, but you if if you're and I even I don't even know what what like if I had to say well, how what is the smallest suppressor that I can make that would get a a 20-inch rum to 130 decibels? I don't even know. I it because and I and I only say that because I know what it would take right now, but six months from now, it may be a completely different answer.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Okay, I got you. So so there is evolving, there's the it's just everything's evolving on the technology side and side. Okay, yeah, that that makes sense. So when we what's interesting, I want I want you to explain this because I know my bias. Um the length is like a big deal, a huge deal. Like, like it's what I optimize for, to be honest with you, with you, Cliff. Like the way I think about it, and you can tell me if this is naive or or hunters out there who are thinking about buying their first suppressor should think about it differently. But man, I basically think to myself, okay, I'm kind of okay putting in like foamies when I'm shooting at the range. Um it that's great. And then if I get an odd shot without them, like I'm not worried about it. That's what I want. And then in the hunting context, I want to shoot four or five, six times or whatever if it if it goes that way and not have to worry about my hearing. That's all I want, dude. Like, I don't really want beyond that, and then I'm like all about the length. Yeah, it I mean, is that is that what the hunting market should opt? I mean, do you have a like what is that a good way for a hunter to think about it, or do you got a different thought?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I would say you know, it depends on how you hunt. Okay. Um right, so a guy that's that's driving around on his four-wheeler uh with his four with his gun in the rack in front of him. I don't know how much he cares about length. Um for the guy for the guys that are, you know, there may be way more than there should be, but there's some people that are driving around with with what they like a true thousand-yard rifle. Yeah. Big big boar thousand-yard rifle. Um, like I'm building one. Um, I'm not weight length is not really what I'm thinking about with that. Um, but at the same time, you know, I sh my primary hunting rifle is a six-dasher, and uh it's it's got a 21-inch barrel, and I it which is already longer than I wanted. Yeah. So I'm I want the shortest can possible just to shrink the overall length of that. So then I put a 6S on it, it's now right at 24 inches, uh, you know, barrel length counting the suppressor, and and it and it shrunk down where you know prior to kind of over the over the barrel really being optimized, how we're I would say we have products out, but it's it's it's going to forever be a work in progress for trying to make them better. At any rate, that's an aside. To make a a short answer long, it depends on what you're doing. For most people that are Western hunting, length should be one of their top priorities.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, because you can achieve the you can achieve the noise reduction that you need fairly easily.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

The noise reduction that you need, and that's a that's a important distinction there. Yeah. Yeah, well, what why do you say that?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Do you think guys you think guys are over obsessed with it or what? Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

The whole market is overobsessed with it right now. With with the noise reduction.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I mean, what like in what in what uh give me an example?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

People will buy a a longer, heavier, quieter suppressor over a shorter, lighter suppressor. I mean still yeah, they're just sticking on a part of it is you know they go to the range with their buddies and then they shoot their can and they go, well, it's louder. Right? And then and then their buddy has an eight-inch one, they're like, wow, that's super quiet, and then they want that. Um it's I think the market is very immature when it comes to suppressors. And and you know, like you said in the beginning, there's only a small percentage of hunters that are even using suppressors right now, which means it how long did it take for you to I guess it turn a question on you, how long did it take to worry until you knew what you wanted for a suppressor? How many years of shooting suppressors?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

So, um so I guess the first way, the first thing I'd answer is like after I shot one, maybe for just like a day or two, I knew that I would always shoot with a suppressor when I legally could, right? So that's first baseline. I think that's pretty universally true. You don't you see very few people that that fall back, right? Almost almost universally, it's because of regulation, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Like they'll yeah, the only exception would be people don't like the recoil, but now with the advancements and muzzle breaks on the end of suppressors, it's kind of uh I just don't see it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Well, what what what you're saying is a guy who's shooting a muzzle break, he goes to a suppressor, he's gonna pick up recoil again. So he might he might theoretically think about going back to the muzzle break. Yes. Yeah. Have you actually seen anybody do that?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I've not seen anybody do it because they want to shoot a muzzle break, but I have seen dudes that have done it because their rifle won't shoot with the suppressor they have.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they they lose they lose accuracy when they when they move to the move to what what dude I'm we're gonna go down a we're gonna go off track a little bit here, dude. But why why why is that, dude? Like why why would a very accurate rifle say say say even a forgiven rifle? I can shoot five different factory uh and you know loaded ammo ammunitions out of this rifle, and then I put a suppressor on it, and now all of a sudden it's like it it just it's wider groups in general, and it's harder to find ammo for it. Well, why is that?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Uh if you think suppressors are like a black magic, barrel harmonics are another channel worms altogether.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

So who the hell knows? It just does.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

It just does. I mean, you watch slow-mo of a barrel, dude, and you're like, how the hell does it hit the same spot every time?

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah, like from how much it moves.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Like this, it's like, how does that hit the same spot on the target every time?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, no, I gotcha. So so that's a that's a factor.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

A lot of times going from a break to a suppressor though, you see kind of the opposite effect because you have you're putting generally you're putting more weight on the end of the barrel, which most of the time help uh most of the time helps. Yeah dampening the the actual um vibration of the barrel, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah. Um, no, no, no, I got you. So to get back to answering your question, there's that component of it. Like once I was on them, I was on them for the most part. I I know what you're I know what you're saying with a break, but for me personally, with my use cases, uh I've never had the big like drop in accuracy cliff, so I haven't I haven't experienced that. Um there's no way I would go back to a break for other reasons. I don't like a break, the loudness, even like the blow, like just to me, the experience of more gas relative to the suppressors that I've shot. So so uh um that's that component of it. In terms of when I figured out, you know, what kind I wanted to shoot. Dude, it's it's gonna sound like a naive answer, man. But for me, it's always been about length. I've used I I've I've used big enough suppressors earlier on that the length was annoying to me. And so then I tried, then I'd shoot a little bit short. You know, I I uh um before I was shooting a lot of your guys' suppressors, I was shooting a lot of like uh gun work. Is small, like small, like six six X titanium just at the end of the barrel. And dude, it's like that. I would say that those in my experience for the cartridges I was shooting, I was shooting, you know, I I don't know the science, but it felt like when I shot them I could get away with two or three shots when I was out hunting without ear protection. I wasn't worried about it. And that and but you know, but like I think a lot of people would look at that and be like, man, that thing is still loud. You know, it's it's it's still loud, but that was okay for me. And then I'm sure we'll get into it. The the over-the-barrel stuff kind of like gave me more gave me like more sound reduction with the same thing. I didn't have to make it longer, you know. And that that's kind of why I ended down that down that trough. Like some of that is just optimizing, like I was a suppressor guy the whole way. But yeah, I mean, it's it's a hard question for me to answer because there's also been I've been trying new things over the last two years. Um, but that's kind of been the thought process. Is that does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah, when you're looking at it from like an average Joe Hunter, though, you know, there I would say the more majority of people, I don't know, maybe I'm speaking just for North Idaho, but you know, you got people that they're hunting is you know, hunting whitetails for you know four or five trips out once, you know, in November. That's what they do. Sure. Um seeing the transition from them, like they're they're so they're they're just not going to have a lot of exposure to a bunch of different suppressors, and right. So I think most of the time those folks end up buying the suppressor that's recommended to them by either the shop that they walk into or the um their buddies. So when you ask me, like, do people care about length? And I and I go, I just don't think that the market is even I for the average hunter, I don't even think they're thinking about that. Yeah, they don't they they know so little about suppressors that that they're like, oh I didn't know that I could just like get a shorter one. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

And be okay, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I I totally see what you're saying. Dude, I think that's a function of our market, though, man. I mean, I'm sure it has to do with the reg, you know, the regulatory component of it. Like it's until now, it's kind of been a pain in the ass to have like a catalog of suppressors in your safe, you know. So I think that's probably it. And the reason I say that, man, is everywhere else I go, clearly, at least the hunters are optimizing for length because they're not using the same suppressors we are. Everybody is using the over-the-count, the the over-the-barrel uh uh suppressors. Like, dude, I this is totally un go ahead. In other countries, you mean? Yeah, in other countries. That that's what that so as an example, as an example. Obviously, I've used your guys' over the over-the-barrel can, but I because because of some uh arcane like regulatory stuff, maybe I was naive to whatever, but I didn't want to push the envelope. When I went to Africa, um I didn't I I there was some weird thing with like Portland customs. They they didn't want me to put my suppressors on there or whatever. Um, and maybe these I you're probably more familiar with it, but anyways, I didn't bring any suppressors. So I called a guy in Africa and I was like, hey, can you buy me a suppressor? He's like, Yeah, no, no problem, right? And and he he like went to the store, bought one with you know, I just told him the caliber size, and it was over the barrel suppressor. Like, and to me, to me, that was like I'm in fully transparent on this. I did not tell him anything in that regard, right? I just wanted one. I mean, we're talking about I'm I'm trying to logistically figure this out like a week ahead of time. All I know is I don't want to go there without one because it's gonna piss me off. You know what I mean? And he and what he comes back with is the over-the-barrel suppressor. So that tells me that clearly that like that's the norm there, right? Yeah, um, and all the New Zealand guys that I know, it's the norm too. So, so clearly they like it's like what what it like you're saying, is is it you think it's fair to say that those like hunting markets at least have already evolved to that point?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Absolutely, yeah. I got you. Yep. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, you and and we're gonna see, you know, with companies like Dead Air doing it, we're gonna see more and more and more companies start doing it. It is the way. Uh we it I don't know why you wouldn't do it.

unknown 27:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Other than having a carbon barrel, but if you're not I think you're fine doing it on a carbon barrel if you're doing using it as normal, normal use. If you're taking it to a match and shooting a bunch of rounds through it, I wouldn't do it. But if you're just hunting with it, it should be just fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Okay, so explain that to me, dude. So we're because the way you said that, there's the you're implying that there's something other than it just fitting. Like in my mind, Cliff, I was just like, if an over-the-barrel suppressor fits a fat barrel, then we're good. That's not the case.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

So you can if you if you're if your suppressor gets too hot, right? Like we talked about earlier, we're trying to trap heat. Um if your suppressor gets too hot, you can't actually damage the resin that's holding the carbon on your barrel. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And we've we've seen delaminations happen on barrels, but okay. It's been people using them and the suppressor got smoking hot, you know. Um, and then it's it's smoking hot and then sustained heat that that's really gonna do it. Um, not letting it cool off as you continue to shoot it. Yep, that makes that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And just so everybody understands what Cliff's talking about for like a little context. Um, it I mean, I didn't know this until like three or four years ago. I'm just naive to it, but carbon barrels are wrapped with carbon. So there's like another, I mean it's another subject, but I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

That we basically have a you basically have a number one contour barrel uh with carbon wrapped around it. Yeah, number one is uh is a little tiny pencil barrel. I mean, there's still a pencil barrel in there, but then you get the rigidity from wrapping in carbon. Yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

But the but where the how the two layers attach it can be problematic if you if it gets super hot. I I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, yeah, the the cut the carbon kind of comes out in phrase, it's not good. Yeah, yeah, no, I no, no, I get you. For for normal use, it's fine. I got you. Actually, Hells Canyon Hells Canyon Armory just made a over-the-barrel carbon barrel. So they so they like fluted four inches of the end of the barrel.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

In steel. So the carbon stops four inches uh behind the muzzle. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's so that that reflex is actually over steel, not carbon.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, I gotcha. Um, well, we're already on the the in just so everybody knows when uh when I say over the barrel, that's not the cool way to say it. Reflex is the cool way to say it. Probably the correct way to say it. Same same, same. Same thing, yeah. Yeah, um, so uh uh cut go ahead. What do they call it overseas? Uh they call it reflex. That was on the back. Yeah, that was I believe that was on the back. Or you know, I don't, I don't maybe it said OTB on it or something. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I think they're used pretty interchangeably. All right, guys, and some of my content you're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. It should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's Cliff G and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. Yep. Um, but we can well let we can let's dig into that as we talk about the over-the-barrel stuff. Because the one that I there, there's actually maybe maybe several questions you can answer for me. Uh one, well, before we get into it, the over-the-barrel, just so people understand the dynamic, you what like the the section that comes back over the barrel, if it's uh trying to think how to say this, because it's obviously different. I've never cut a suppressor open. So, but I'm there's different technology in the over the in the over the barrel section, I'm assuming, or or like I and and what I'm getting at is like like what's the rough if I got four inches that come over the barrel, is it what's it equivalent to in front of the barrel? Ooh. I mean, dude, you can be you can rough.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

It's it's probably 25. So if okay, so if you have four inches over the barrel, it's probably worth an inch of muzzle forward.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Okay, okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yep. Let's be conservative to say that. And there's really not any, at least for ours, I can't speak for everybody's. There's not really we we've tried a bunch of stuff, but there's really no technology back over the barrel part. I mean, it's just a shell. It's volume, it's just like a yeah. Volume. It's making a massive uh expansion chamber or blast chamber or whatever you want to call it. The in the basically the section from the end of your barrel to the first baffle.

unknown 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

It's taking that, right? And then you're like stretching it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, the so we can dive into this, man, because there's a lot of the the questions I wanted to answer are all intertwined here. So the the the suppressor I shot in Africa, the over-the-barrel suppressor, it was um, I believe it was about the length of your guys' OG. It might have been a smidge shorter, man. I was I was fine with it hunting there. Uh, if I was being totally honest, I I didn't notice like a big big audible difference, uh, but I nor was I paying attention, really, you know, then my ears didn't hurt, you know, it was all good. Um, it was dirt cheap, dude. 250 bucks, I think I paid for it. Um, it had you could take it apart, you could shorten it if you wanted to. Had like, you know, those. Um, I've got I've got my own thoughts on my limited experience uh with that component of it. Um, but let's start at the baseline. What's the difference between uh uh and you could this doesn't have to just be on the over the barrel. Like what's the difference? Why why are they so cheap? And and what's like what sh how should somebody consider that, man? Like a like a like a I'm assuming those are just steel uh and they're inexpensive, like a $250 one worth is versus a $1,200 one, like what's the what's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

But the the primary thing is the the material of construction and the method of construction. So if I mean if you're gonna buy one that's titanium, like let's say if if I took like a 6S, right? Okay, six inch, and I said I'm gonna make this traditionally manufactured, I'm gonna buy tube, I'm gonna weld baffles onto the end of it, I'm gonna do all that, right? I don't know that it's gonna be cheaper, where I think printing is a little bit cheaper. All right, let me, I'm going down a rabbit hole here. Um I think that the primary reason that suppressors are so much cheaper, say in Europe, is because their market has evolved like they've gone way past market saturation.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Okay, everybody has them.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

You have a mature market, yeah. Right? We're no we're not even close to market saturation.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

And you could see it with how many people use suppressors, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah, well, dude, explain that because I think there's two perceptions I have of it, man. And I and I've thought about this a lot in the market since. Um, I think if a guy has been shooting suppressors for two and a half years, what he's like that I can only speak for me. What I'm seeing right now, like I go to Shot Show and it's like, holy shit, dude, there's no way, like there, there's uh uh 500 new suppressor companies, right? And they're all making suppressors and they're all pumped about it. Um like you know, uh my intuition is like, oh, these are like it's gonna get cheap here. Things are gonna get cheap here. It's gonna get easy to get them. There's gonna be there's so many guys making them. But then I pull my my head out of my ass a little bit and I look around and I realize that yeah, most hunters still like like I I'm I don't know what it is, maybe you know the numbers, but I it's like I bet it's 85% of hunting rifles have never had one on them. Easily, yeah. Um so what are what are your thoughts on that? I mean, like what's what's the market gonna gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Well, it's obvious. I mean, I guess it's obvious to me that when you deregulate suppressors, that there's gonna be instantly a pile of new suppressor companies, right? Right. Um that that that's no surprise to me at all. Um I think most if if not all of the new companies are low volume, like we are. I would say, you know, uh as far as you know, in terms of you know how many units made per year, we are we're not we're a drop in the bucket. Oh, low manufacturing volume.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah. So in terms of like the whole market and how like how many are gonna be purchased this year, um I would I would venture to guess that well over 60% of the suppressors purchased this year will be made by the top three manufacturers. I got you. So there's a whole bunch of new suppressor manufacturers, but it's a kind of uh you you really gotta make a name for yourself in a hurry to survive the the inevitable consolidation. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, no, I got you. Um, and that makes sense, man. You know what's what it's kind of analogous to though, and I just wonder is I remember when AR started getting real popular from like I guess you'd call it like a retail perspective, or just the average guy in the US, and kind of the same thing happened, Cliff. Like I I remember looking around being like, oh, how many how many black rifle rifle companies can there be? Um, you know, it but but what's weird is there's still a shitload of them.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

You you know, like I think it's um it's one of those things where you a lot of the volume's gonna consolidate, but there's still gonna be smaller companies. Like cut smaller companies are still gonna exist, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

So um but the vast majority like if you look at the vast majority of rifle sales, it's all gonna be again three or four manufacturers making 75% of them.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah, I gotcha. And that part of that has to do with just manufacturing capacity. Some guys are gonna grow it, some guys aren't. Well, yeah, I mean, no, I mean it's also mark it's also like how much market share they get. Market share is what it is, right? Yeah, yeah. I gotcha. So bringing it back to this comparison that I'm I'm forcing upon you, what what else, what other differences? So you you've argued so I totally understand what you're saying. I mean, all and dude, I have like I tracked down the guys that are trying to sell the suppressor that I shot in Africa here, um, and I chatted with them, and they're like, dude, like we there's no way we we like we're super low volume. So it's almost like a it's almost like a fake price tag here. This is my my perception, because you can't get them, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's supply and demand, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

And forever, forever there was like um was it a couple years ago, 20 23 maybe, like to get and I it may still be this way, but to buy a scythe or to buy uh uh like an ultra seven or something, like you're you're waiting a year. Oh yeah, yeah. And and you're not gonna see price drops when you're waiting a year to get a suppressor. I mean, that's just that's basic. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, yeah. No, in that in that I I follow all that, dude. So, and I I agree that that's a reality of it. But in terms of differentiating the two, let's assume we're let's assume we're uh 10 years from now, Cliff. I'm a s there's gonna be there's still gonna be thousand dollar suppressors and there's still gonna be five hundred dollar suppressors. What's the difference from a from a hunter's perspective? Like how like like what what if I just I'm just gonna buy the cheapest suppressor that has those dimensions?

SPEAKER_00 39:39

How it's made and um what it's made of, right? So you can buy uh like uh it's essentially an aluminum shell with a stainless steel core or sometimes even just a stainless steel blast section, and you can manufacture that thing for nothing. Yeah, right, and then that becomes your your $400 suppressor.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Uh if you're looking at it's not gonna be the lightest suppressor, it's not gonna be the shortest suppressor, and it's not gonna be the quietest suppressor.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Right? So when you go to like a a thousand dollar suppressor, in this case an $800 suppressor, like if if I cut this in half, you would be shocked. That's a complication. Not really the complication, but how thin everything is. Oh, okay. And that's because we're we're using really high quality materials in a really advanced technology to make them. It's an it's an it's it's expensive from uh from a manufacturing perspective for like the hourly rate of the machine that that makes them. On top of that, the the raw material is expensive. And I could print them from a cheaper raw material and save a bunch of money there. I can't really the the printer still costs the same amount of money.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Yeah, like the capital investment.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, and from uh and I my volume's not going to increase. So like if if I were to make say an aluminum suppressor like that, it wouldn't really cost less because it costs so much to run the machine.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, no, I follow. Now, from from outside of the business side of things and the market side of things, as an end user, uh I so you hit on the it's gonna be a little heavier. Um, what what are the other what are the other like differentiations that that somebody should be cognizant of? Is there durability issues, any of that stuff? Is it is it real? I mean, it from a hunter I in like in the hunting context, man. Like if I'm gonna shoot, I got a rifle, I'm gonna over its over its lifetime, I'm gonna shoot less than a thousand rounds. Is there something I should be wary about a cheap suppressor? Uh I mean what what is that like are there issues there?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Yeah, so well there in in my eyes, like in the cheap suppressor world, like you can just take titanium and throw it right out. Because material is so expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you're talking you're talking basically a stainless steel suppressor, like like 416 or some kind of easily manufacturable stainless steel. Yep. Or an aluminum suppressor with a stainless steel core. Um, they have trade-offs, right? If you go with a stainless steel suppressor, it's gonna be heavy. Yeah. Uh durability is probably not an issue at all.

unknown 42:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Um, but it is gonna be heavy. Um, I don't really want to speak to how good they're gonna work because that's kind of a a can of worms, and we're gonna see advancements with cheap suppressors that are, I think, gonna blow people's minds of what you can do with a $400 suppressor. Sure. Um and then, like if you took an aluminum one with a stainless steel core, you're gonna get some weight savings, but then you're gonna have some durability. There's gonna be cartridge restrictions, there's gonna be barrel length restrictions, there's gonna be right, it's just not as durable.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Yeah. And when you when you say when you say dura, when we talk about durability in terms of suppressors, Cliff, like what what does that look like? I mean, I the the baseline in my mind is like it's gonna get dented easier. Like, I know that's not the answer. So, like, what what is what is the fatigue in a suppressor, what's the end user actually see?

SPEAKER_00 43:17

So there's two there's two in my eyes, and I'm probably s oversimplifying this, but in my eyes, there's really two failure modes for a suppressor, and and and the first one being use. Um, every time you shoot, you do uh you know, I'm sure you've seen sparks come out of yours. Yeah, some of that's gunpowder, but then some of it is the material that the suppressor's made out of. Okay. Over time your bores are gonna open up because you're you're blowing out parts of it with every shot. Right? So from a you you can they're also filling with carbon, and that's a whole can of worms in itself, but um you you can hypothetically wear out a suppressor from shooting it in normal use um just with normal wear. I mean, but it's gonna be hundreds of thousands of rounds, which nobody's gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

But the wear, the what you what shows up from wear is it's not it like you it gets louder.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

It's complicated because carbon for some reason a lot of the times makes suppressors quieter. So when you shoot a suppressor a bunch, um they're constantly filling with um unused or byproducts from the the chemical reaction of the explosion, right? So they're filling with what we call carbon. It's some complicated mixture concoction of different elements, right? But black soot basically will fill your suppressor over time, yeah. And for what Whatever reason, most of the suppressors that we've shot that have a ton of carbon in them are quieter than quieter than the day they were made. Oh I think part of that is the carbon deposits in the low pressure areas and then kind of fills it's kind of like fixing the suppressor to how it should have been, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah. Um, and then so your your bore may open up, but I doubt it's gonna affect the whole suppressor. So to a person that doesn't use a microphone every time they shoot, you're never gonna know that it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Gotcha. Um and then the other failure mode is is just a is a like uh destructive failure. It explodes in some form or fashion. Um those are those are the really two when I when I talk about durability, that's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

So the destructive one is obviously what I think a lot of people think about and are worried about. Is it a real thing? Like it I mean, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

So so so it somebody go ahead. You've got f 40,000 plus PSI trying to blow this thing to pieces every time you pull the trigger. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

So this is the the dirt that that should be something that you think like a buyer should be considering. Like, hey, is this thing gonna the reason I do this may sound super naive to you, Cliff. To me, it's kind of stunning that that I I would think that these these are being sold, that that would be like it's a thing that's possible. But if I'm shooting any suppressor out there that's the right caliber, that I'm not gonna blow it up on my hunting rifle. It I mean, it but that's not that's not a safe assumption.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Most, if not all, suppressor manufacturers have some kind of guidelines for what you can do with it, right? So ours are our we we simplified it down to standard case head, magnum case head, lapua case head. That's the simplest way that we've done it, uh long action and short action. Um and we just provide a barrel length, like long action magnum, minimum barrel length is 20 inches. So if you're following that, we we took the worst case scenario, you know, short action magnum bull face and tried to blow it apart with that, or try to blow apart multiple samples, and and we now believe that there it's not gonna happen. I got you. Yeah, yeah. So if we say if if we say there's like a 20-inch rating on a barrel, we tried to blow it up with a 16-inch. So we're we we're like padding the worst case scenario for any suppressor company is to have one blow apart on a customer.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah. And uh, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I have I've seen one of you one of your suppressors uh blow up, but or not blow up, I saw it like about it get a baffle strike, but it was after like I saw what was done to it, and it's like it's it's irrelevant to me. You know what I mean? Like running running three 308 30 round mags through a suppressor as fast as possible, it's like okay. On the whatever, the uh do quick math on like the 40th round, you're or no, it'd be the not the 40th, it'd be like the 70, the the 80th round, I guess is what I'm thinking about. It got hot, you know, like I looked at it, it looked like you know, it's like molten. Um it's like okay, well, like I get it, but it's irrelevant.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

And all of our failures, with the exception of one, have been baffles turned inside out. Oh, okay. And that's that's what the uh the the baffle strikes become. You know, is that baffle? It's literally trying to invert, so go from you know concave to convex inside of the can while you're firing it. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's been all of our failures for any of our our failures you want to call them, which in our eyes is not like a true failure. I mean, if you did that to your suppressor, you're in some crazy life or death scenario where you're just yeah, yeah, different.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Yeah, different.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

And ultimately it's not gonna hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I thought too. Uh which was kind of, yeah, it still blew off, you know, it didn't wasn't gonna hurt anybody. But so the the follow-on question to that is are there suppressors where uh I mean I did something that still seems kind of unreasonable, but I could see it occurring. You know, I ran two 10 round 308 mags through it real quick, that it would be like not okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

If if you're following the manufacturer's barrel length restrictions, you should be okay. You should be okay. It's when you start doing stuff that's beyond the bounds of and and a lot of times you can reach out to a manufacturer to say, like, hey, this wasn't explicitly stated on your bear length restrictions. Am I good here? And then they'll either say yay or nay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

No, that I I uh I get that, man. Um, it's uh yeah, the so the last question I have is I'm gonna let you answer it before I give my opinion. The idea of suppressors that you can lengthen and shorten, like the the user can. Do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:16

For a hunting suppressor, it's just not for me. Yeah. Um, I've dude, I've had I lost a deer last year because the suppressor was loose. And and it was an OG, it was an OG, and uh it wasn't my rifle, unfortunately. Um I I had a it was a buddy's rifle. He had OG on it, and it was loose, and that is the only threads on that whole suppressor. Yeah. So now when you take a can that you can add and add and add and add and add baffles to, I just don't, it's not for me. And I uh there's absolutely you can do it, and absolutely you can make a foolproof system where you nothing can ever come loose. Um, but in my eyes, you're just making failure point on failure point on failure point on failure point.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah. No, so uh so I don't need to give my opinion, dude, because we we didn't talk about beforehand. I give my opinion it's gonna be like the exact same. Like I it that's what was weird to me about it. It you know, one, I didn't really think of the scenario where I would really like need like want to shorten it, but all I could do is look up at it, and like the first thing I did was mark it so I could keep track because it's got now it's got it had it had five, no, I had uh four or five different tightening points now. Yeah, you know what I mean. So it's like all right, now I gotta worry about that in addition to the city.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Well, dude, I would just be carrying around whatever tool goes to it and just constantly making sure it's tight.

unknown 51:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Or mark it, right? That's the easiest way. Yeah, yeah. I guess it go ahead. I mark my I mark my OGs now on my hunting rifles. Yeah, they can mark the base. Yep, yep. Right at the base of it. I mark it. Lesson learned, never doing that again.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Yeah, yeah. No, nope. I hear you, man. And uh um, you're not trying to crap on the the one that I I shot, but it I I had the exact same conclusion. It just seemed a little gimmicky to me. That would be how I would say it.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

At least people like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Yeah, like that. So there are people that that uh like the ability to lengthen them and shorten them. Absolutely. Why like give me give me the use case that they're that they're doing it in?

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Uh I would say is most of the time they're putting it on a bunch of different rifles. Oh, okay. Okay, right. And like we talked about earlier, volume volume plays a role in how quiet it is when you're when you're jumping cartridges. You're gonna jump from a six creed to a 300 uh rum using the same can, like if you're if you're expecting a reasonable comparable sound suppression, like that thing's gotta get bigger.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah, no, no. You go from uh whatever 300 wind mag down to a 223, all of a sudden you can take some baffles out and be have shorter, and you're still you're still sound safe or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah, for for for most folks that are like buying a suppressor is a like that's the thing that they're getting this year to buy to upgrade their kit, right? Yeah. Again, it's not for me, but there's a lot of people that are like, man, I'll just take that. I can use it on everything.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

And it'll and it'll be decent on everything.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Dude, and I'm and I totally, I totally get that, and particularly I get it with like the the you know, there's they're expensive. Um, but where do you what you think that's gonna change, man? Do you think it's gonna be like part of a rifle setup and it tends to be more permanent in the future? Or do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

I've I yeah, I've expressed this on a on several podcasts. I've it, you know, everybody. I I don't I I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way when I say it, but I don't I don't understand why people, you know, it's okay to have one suppressor to put on a different bunch of different rifles, but then you have a scope on every single one of them. And your scope costs more 99% of the time the scope costed more than the suppressor did. Right. Why is it that doesn't make sense?

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah, and it and it and you can extend the analogy, you know, Cliff, because it kind of has the same implications. It's not like it's dude, because I did this to go back to the Africa thing because it's fresh from my mind. Um uh form, our mutual buddy was busting my balls because there's several pictures of me with a rifle in Africa and I'm shooting and it's unsuppressed because I had multiple rifles. And in my mind, when I thought, oh, all I need is one suppressor, right? And we're talking about a fairly unique use case. I I get that the audience uh would might might uh come back on me on in that regard, but still, it's not like you can be swapping around a suppressor because that you're loot, you're changing your point of impact, right? So so it but you can extend that to guns in the safe. It's like okay, so you got the suppressor on one rifle, and your concept is you're gonna move it around, but you're not because every time you do that, you gotta re-zero the rifle.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Yeah, you it you can you can screw it off and screw it back on, and it and it, I would argue probably almost every time we'll have not changed your zero. But without fail, the time that you do not check it, it did not hold zero. Like it sure it didn't, it didn't go on exactly the same somehow.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Yep, yep, yeah. So for clarity, so people understand what Close saying, like you can you can you can have this rifle zeroed, the rifle next to it zeroed, it with the suppressor, both the suppressor, you can move the suppressor to one to the other, and then move it back. Most of the time it's gonna be fine. Sometimes it may not sometimes for some whatever variable.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah, yeah. There are there are fancy like quick disconnect systems that you can get that have like zero POI shift, or at least they claim that. Yeah. Um, but again, dude, you're just adding another failure point. You're adding more threads and stuff to your barrel. That yeah, no, I I I get it. I I believe in I truly believe that a suppressor is part of a rifle, like it's part of that rifle and it stays on that rifle.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Yeah, I gotcha. Now, um the muzzle devices. Uh can you explain? Uh I mean, I've used them before, you you know, on on different suppressors. Uh mate, muzzle. Am I using the right term?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

You know, like the the break on the end of it?

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if I've got you know, a certain you know, like uh all my uh Thunderbee suppressors, right? They've now I said two years. I probably have had some of those for four years, but I've always used muzzle devices on those.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Um and saying inside of the can or on the end of the can?

SPEAKER_01 57:00

No, uh, yeah, inside the can. Okay. Am I using the wrong term?

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Well, there's there's there's brakes, there's there's muzzle brakes that go inside of the suppressor, and then there's suppressor brakes that go on the end of the suppressor.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Okay, so I'm I'm I'm saying I thread, I don't direct thread the suppressor. There's there's a small looks like a small uh break uh that I'm using first, right? So why first of all, this is gonna sound totally idiotic, but I have never known why I've used those. Um so why would somebody use those? And then and then why does it make sense or does it make sense in some applications to use those?

SPEAKER_00 57:41

We've tested it a bunch. Um different breaks inside of suppressors, different um, you know no break versus break is it's a crapshoot of what it's gonna do to the suppressor. I mean, it's so hit and miss as to if it is going to improve or or negatively impact the performance of the suppressor. And ultimately the reason you're doing it is so that you can take the suppressor off, right? And shoot without it.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Yeah, I got yeah, okay, got you.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

I don't know anybody that does that.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yeah, you know, I'd never have either. Yeah, I mean that yeah, I I get that. And I yeah, that's that's an odd that is it. I'm laughing at myself a little bit because yeah, that's obvious. It looks like a little break, right? And it's not bare threads. I don't know, you know, so I could just take it off, but I've never done it one time.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

You know, perfect, yeah, exactly. I I did the same thing. I had you know the little C B break that they give you with uh with a Thunder Beast. Um, and then you even take the time to time it and everything, so the brakes are you know, the ports are flat, yep, and then and then you never take the suppressor off because why would you? Right, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

And uh you got all of your guys' are direct thread, right? No, the reaper is not.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

The reaper has a hub adapter, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Gotcha. So that's my follow-on question. Um, well, why do why why is your reaper why is it have an adapter?

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Um it's kind of the you know, in the suppressor industry, there is no standards for anything. I would say that I would argue that the closest thing to a standard is hub threads or Bravo threads, which is what the Reaper's threaded for. And what that allows people to do is um, you know, a lot of guys will use a Reaper on a gas gun can, or as a gas gun can, rather. And they almost say almost, a lot of them use um QD systems. Okay, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. It opens it up so you can put more you you can change that. You could obviously use our thread adapter, our hub adapter, or you can use whatever your favorite one is, or you could use, you know, even the CB one um from Thunder Beast. Um I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Because it's a different standard threading. But in in in but somebody could argue in that application it's better.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

For the for what the purpose of that suppressor is, yeah, I think it's better. Yeah, I think. And I say the purpose of that, like that suppressor is is like a broad use suppressor.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could use it, you could hypothetically use it on a gas gun, you could use it on your hunting rifle. Yeah, it's all it's all good. I got you. Um, do that kind of leads me to another line of questioning, Cliff. Do you guys do you guys view yourself as a uh is like well, is is the market in the US gonna like uh break into hunting suppressors and then like tactical suppressors? Or is that already occurred?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

It has occurred, but I would say like the bulk of suppressor sales are still suppressors that people think are gonna they're gonna put it on all their rifles. They're gonna put the one suppressor on all their rifles. I would argue that is most, if not all, of the suppressor sales. That the the suppressor sales that are not that are dudes that it is definitely not their first suppressor.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Yep. I gotcha. Yeah, their first suppressor is the one that they bought to put on all their rifles and it sits in their safe now because you can use it for everything, but it's not good at anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

Yeah, I gotcha. It's not it's not the best at anything. Yeah, no, no, no, no, I gotcha. Um, dude, let's uh because we kind of just like we kind of went over it, but I know it's like a big core component of of your guys' stuff. Um how did you guys get into the over the barrel? The like the OG and all of that. Like what's the um like how did you guys get into it and and is that is that your primary focus going forward?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah, the okay, so how do we get into it? It it I it stemmed from Form and Ryan, honestly, 100%. Um, it's their idea, they've talked about it forever, they've they've always said it is the way to go. Um for because Ryan has expressed a million times his number one concern is uh is length, right? Yeah, and so how do you get decent suppression while just making the suppressor as short as possible? Well, you have to make it a reflex.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

Um, and then to answer the this we believe this is the way to do it. Our our core market is hunting, sure, right? So we want to make the best hunting suppressor you can buy. That's what we make is our OG line. Yep, right? We believe that's what everybody should be using. I just say everybody, almost everybody, whether you're backpack hunting and the thing's gonna go in your backpack, or you're going through with you're like pushing a long rifle through brush sucks, right? Yep. Uh having it in your backpack and then having it this high out of your backpack, right? That sucks. What no matter where you're carrying it, right? A gun bearer or in your pack, however, you're gonna do it, it sucks. Length, shortening the overall length is is core. Uh even you know, hunting in a blind, right? You gotta get it out your window. Yeah. It's it, yeah. I mean, length is the king of hunting suppressors. And so the OG line is gonna be where our core innovation lives, basically. I mean, it's because uh for for lack of a better reason, it's what we use. We want the best for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Yeah. No, I I I get it. I have to I have to laugh because um even uh well like I've shot with form with uh with well with a reaper and with uh with a T-back, and he always like bust my balls about it. You know what I mean? He's like, why what like you know what's it? I I I get it, you know what I mean. I uh because I've also shot the OGs and you know drug them around the mountains a bunch, and it is it is it is nice. There's kind of a part of me that's it whenever I I because now you know a lot of my rifle construction, um, you know, not just like the standard Tika with the OG, but the other ones too, um, everything's getting shorter. And it's like I do look at the barrel length that's between the end of the forearm and the base of the reflex suppressor, and I do wonder, like, well, why why don't I just make the well, why don't what instead of having a why don't I just bring more back? Do you get do you get um diminishing returns like the further you go back? No, so it's just a cosmetic thing or weight or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Well, so integrally suppressed has been around forever, which would be the whole barrel. Our our suppressors have uh on the on the inside, uh, you know, down in here, there is a wall. Yeah. On an integrally suppressed suppressor, there is no wall there. The barrel is the inner wall. The outside of the barrel is the inner wall. A lot of times there's porting and everything else. Um that's that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Do you do you think that do you I mean, do you think it's you think that's gonna be a thing in the hunting world ever? Or is it like is it will be a while?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Suppressors like this, I I think we're a ways out from people universally adopting this for hunting. Um to get to to the leap from that to integrally suppressed is big.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

It from a manufacturing perspective, market perspective, just like bigger.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

From an adoption perspective. Because it's a big fat barrel. Well, you need a your barrel is custom to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Yeah, yeah, and then your stock is going to be custom to fit the thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay, it's like a totally like it's a it's like a huge shift in like in hunting firearms as total.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Yeah, there's it won't work on anything that you can buy from a sporting goods store.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's but you but there probably will be like guys that come out with rifle hunting rifle companies if that's their thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

We've uh we've made one. Oh, okay. Yeah. And um we did it differently. And it's kind of uh it's one of my many projects that's just sitting in my cabinet waiting for me to pick it back up and um and finish it, really. But we want to be able to offer it to people as like, hey, like send us your barrel and we'll modify it for this.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

And uh yeah, I got you. Yeah, yeah, that well, that's what I you know, I I have I have no idea like your guys' internal workings or whatever, but that's kind of what I was getting at. It's like, hey, can I just what would be a cool like uh uh imaginary business out there is I could call up Cliff and be like, hey, I've got nine inches ahead of my forearm, just make me a nine inch over the barrel suppressor, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Yeah, oh absolutely. Yeah, um, you could definitely do it. Yeah, we it we will I would say probably not this hunting season, but next hunting season, I'm gonna have Prototypes of I would say pseudo possibly actually integrally suppressed, but pseudo-integrally suppressed. Yeah, I think integrally suppressed, like to be truly integrally suppressed, there's porting in your barrel. Meaning, you know, if the can't over your barrel by this far, there's holes in your barrel.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So again, it's like more more complication. But you're saying like what I am describing is a s is a sp is kind of like a pseudo internally suppressed. Yeah, I gotcha. Gotcha. Cool, man. Uh, dude, you've you've hammered all my questions and and I've I've learned a ton. Is there any um uh out outside of early on you said that hunters probably that are buying suppressors, they're they're over focused on um the vol the uh how loud it is? Or dude, are there any other like things that you think people probably I don't know, you could call myths or things that they focus on that aren't right, aren't correct, or or they should focus on other things when they're thinking about suppressors?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Uh I think that you know, having a suppressor that like um I don't want to bash on a reaper, but a suppressor like a reaper where you have a hub adapter on the front of it, um, and it gives you some kind of versatility that you just aren't going to use. Right? And it's it's another it's another failure point that that you were like on a hunting setup, like it's just not for me, right? I don't want those other threads. Yeah, and you're talking about a break on the end of the suppressor. Um, I mean the the hub adapter, just right the part that screws onto your barrel.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Gotcha. Yeah. Now now direct thread is is the way to go. Yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

Now, now what about the breaks on the end of suppressors? Uh do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

Yeah, so I think that's the that's the bridge where like we were talking earlier about people going from a break to a can, they pick up a bunch of recoil, right? Yeah. Um breaks on the end of suppressors are the gap, like they're bridging that gap. Yeah. Where where you do pick up in some cases a lot more noise, but it's still a million times better than a break, a muzzle brake, and uh tremendous, tremendous recoil control.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

Yeah. Uh I'll I'll throw out a um like a I don't know, like a hypothetical. So let's say that I've got a suppressor that I can put a brake on the end of. Um, and I I'm at the range, I'm shooting for practice or whatever, I've got I've got ear protection on. Um, and so I'm like, hey, I want the I want the brake to minimize recoil in that environment, like say call my training environment. And then I want to be able to just uh pull pull the brake off, throw the cap on, um, and because now I'm gonna go without hearing protection when I'm hunting. And uh man, and I to give people a little context on that, this is for sure coming from guiding Cliff, but I am on top of hearing protection. Like, as you know, I I think way better than most guides, way better than most hunters, but still, dude, third of the time it ain't happening. You know, I mean it just ain't happening. Um, and so so I'm very cognizant of this, and maybe as I've gotten older, I've become more cognizant of it. But uh what I'm in this hypothetical, I'm saying, like, well, I I don't want to deal with the extra volume from that break at the end. Can I throw the cap on and go shoot it, or do I got to re-zero it? I would check your zero.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Are are they are they do they shift much?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

Uh it's all over the map. Sometimes none, and sometimes, you know, a half a mil.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:37

Okay. Yep. So it is a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

Especially going from a break, you know, if you if you're using a brake like uh the simple salmon reverse solutions break they make, it's just side ports. That's probably not gonna do anything weird. But their new the near the new Grim brake actually has muzzle rise control also. So instead of recoiling like this, right, it's just gonna recoil straight back. Um, that is doing this to the barrel when you shoot, right? Yeah. There's no way that there's not a point of impact shift. Going from that to a cap.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Yeah, because because some of that, maybe this is an oversimplication, but some of that movement is gonna occur while the bullet's still in the in the barrel.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:15

Absolutely. There's a ton of gas that before the bullet jumps into the lands, right? They're you know, especially depending on how far your bullets are jumping, there's gas that goes around the bullet down the bore before the bullet even seals into it, right? And that's that's the gas that's that's the gas that's gonna basically affect what happens when the bullet leaves. Gotcha. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:39

Sweet, dude. Well, I uh I don't want to keep you for another hour, so let's keep this one brief, dude. But I I saw I saw uh you know on Rock Slide, I saw a few posts. I've seen some some other posts, different areas uh in private conversations with Ryan. Uh he's we we've chatted uh uh a bit about this, but I I have seen that some similar kind of behavior from uh hunters and folks trying to pick gear where they start to key in on one variable, right? Like weight, weight and backpacks is a huge one, right? There's a lot of guys that will buy, like they'll literally just go to that number. It's a nice quantitative number. Uh everything in their mind, everything else is equal. I'm just gonna buy the lighter one, you know. I feel like that same behavior uh happens with the D uh the DB stuff. Um, and I'm not saying it's wrong, like maybe for the right person, that's what you want to optimize on. I I don't know. But it does kind of disturb me a little bit as a consumer that it sounds like there's like lots of discrepancy on that. Uh, do you have thought like discrepancy on like I I I don't know if people are malintentioned about it, there's a measuring issue or what. But do you do you mind like giving some context on that? And and should people actually should people uh I guess think about that when when they're looking at these things?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

Um you there is massive discrepancies from manufacturer to manufacturer on how they're doing their sound testing. Um and you you know trying to figure out the right way politically to say this. Um most people are not using microphones that are good enough to capture the true decibel rating of their suppressor. Most. Well, I'd say most. Most new young companies like us. Like we're we're definitely not, but we're aware of that. Yeah, yeah. And we we we accomplish it with very large sample sizes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

Okay, so let's dig into that a little bit. I I I tend to think you you you may have different opinion on this, but I think I think most people do want to be like honest. So in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, um, is it is it a uh cost of the testing or something? Like I okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

I don't think anybody, I I don't think anybody uh is I don't say I'd like to think that nobody is doing it maliciously, like knowing that they're lying about their destiny. Yep. I'd like to think that's true. Um and it and if that's true, then it comes down to just education, man. Sound is a sound is a can of worms that I'm like I've no interest in knowing enough sound to have a high level of confidence in what I'm measuring. I just know that you can with a with a greater sample size and enough minds working on it, you can come to a reasonable conclusion that we like we even with all of our decibel numbers, we say like this is what we're measuring, and we're confident that this is the number that we're gonna get when we measure it. Yeah, I gotcha. Yep. Right? And and so the the best resources are places like um the Silencer Summit from Thunderbeast. So we're gonna be sending cans to the Silencer Summit from Thunder Beast, where they can actually rate them with the expensive microphone. You know, our our microphones are expensive, but the ones that they're using are 10 times the cost, right? I gotcha. It's the sample rate is normally the problem. You have to the the peak of the impulse of the the pressure wave that the that the sound is from the suppressor uh is so fast that you just have to have like a I want to say if 200 plus hertz sample rate, meaning 200 samples a second.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

Okay. Or it's it's kind of like frame rate, like you could miss it. You could miss the actual peak or what okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I got you. Um, dude, is it night? So I'll tell you how I I've kind of thought about it, and and tell me if this is a naive way. I uh I've done it on feel, man, if that makes sense. So like go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

Our favorite way to what what we do before we ever pull out the microphone is get like four dudes and have them all turn away from the suppressor and they get shot in a random order, and then a different shooter goes up and repeats the same thing, and then we all write down without talking to each other which one that we thought was the quietest. That's our that's our favorite way to test suppressors.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:21

Yeah, I got you. Okay, so that that gives me a little confidence because that's how I've done it, dude. Like, like the like I have a T-back. Uh I'm sorry for for those guys I can't remember the exact model, but it has a break on the end of it. And when I shoot it, I know I have to wear I need to wear hearing protection. Because it's like, ugh, you know what I mean? It's not it's not as bad as a bear rifle, a bear barrel, but it's like uh, you know, and then and then like when I shoot the OG, I'm like, yeah, it's fine. I I don't really I I don't really go beyond that. I'm like, yeah, it's okay. Like I when I when I don't have hearing protection on, it's not painful. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

You were getting uh your replacement should be shipping next week. The OG 30, the new version of the OG, yeah. So we'll have to get your thoughts going from the OG Gen 1 to the OG Gen 2.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

Yeah, shoot the two to the two differently. I think I guess what I'm getting at, Cliff, is like uh if it it maybe you don't know the answer to this, but if it feels like it's too loud, I mean, is that is that like an indicator of it doing damage to your ears? Yeah, you know, or can it can it be quiet and still be damaging your ears?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Yes, that's what I was just gonna say. If it feels like it's too loud, it's way too loud. Okay. Yeah. If it if if you feel like it's like there's really no suppressor that you should be shooting without hearing protection if you're at the range. Yeah, I got it. But you know, when you're hunting, you're just it's just not you're just not gonna wear hearing protection. Yeah, yeah. Regardless of kind of how loud it is. Yeah. And we all hunted with muzzle brakes, and then there was a chance to shoot a deer that you did not put hearing protection in for, right? Yeah. No, no, yeah. Torching off a muzzle brake with no hearing protection in.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Yeah, yeah. No, dude, I the extreme, like maybe somewhat funny example of that. Uh when I when I was Kate Buffalo hunting with those guys, like I'll it, dude, I went into it thinking, I'm wearing hearing protection because he's shooting a 500 nitro, I'm shooting a 460, they're fucking loud, you know. I'm like, I'm wearing hearing protection. Like, dude, that that stopped like 10 minutes into it because I didn't, because I was also like realizing like these this freaking hearing protection is gonna get me killed, you know what I mean? Because I can't hear, I can't, you know, like so you you're like you're just not wearing hearing protection in that situation. This is just how it's gonna go, you know. Um, but yeah, it's a reality. But I I get what you're saying, like it's it's naive, it it it in a way, I shouldn't say naive, it's not for all this stuff, it's not optimal to not wear hearing protection. Yeah, it's it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

Even if you're shooting out of range, man, with a really quiet suppressor, you should be wearing hear protection. It's just not inconvenient enough to not do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

Yeah, I gotcha. No, no, no, it makes makes sense, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

Um, what do we miss, dude? Uh downrange kind of report of an OG. And I have you experienced that yourself at I shoot giant class.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

Yeah, so I uh I haven't ex uh I'll I'll give you the the caveats first. So I have I haven't experienced it enough um to to be to honestly tell you that I can he I can tell giant differences in the tone and that sort of thing. You know, form talks a lot about it, or he mentions it to me all the time when we're shooting and that sort of thing. And he'll say things to me, Cliff, like um, like, yeah, can you tell the difference? And it's it's like I can, but then when we get then I can't really, you know what I mean? But I can tell you when I'm when I'm downrange, the I have d like it's very clear to me directionally. You know what I mean? Like the I don't know if I don't know if this could just be my experience, but I can it's way harder for me to tell the direct like where somebody is shooting an OG versus versus like my like my break uh teabac or whatever. Like I I can just pinpoint it better if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

So 100%. And that's the that's kind of the piece that we have been saying for a year now. You know, I don't know how the hell you show this to people because nobody believes you, and that's kind of the whole point of it is you can't tell where it came from. Right. To an animal downrange, man, a supersonic crack of a bullet going by you is not there's no direction to that. Right. It came kind of from everywhere at once, right? So that's not giving them the animal kind of an indication of where you just shot from. And a lot of times what they do when you're using uh over the braille can is they look at what it hit, right? If you hit a if you hit a rock, they're gonna go, what that rock just exploded, and sometimes run away from the rock that just exploded, towards you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

Right? Sure, because it's loud, it's they see they see the dust, they see the shit blowing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

Yeah, so like you can still hear it, but you can't really pinpoint where it came from. Right. Whether when you're using almost like we did it at the shop the other day, we had guys go, you know, 100 yards uh behind a burn, but 100 yards downrange, and we would shoot a six-inch muzzle forward can and then the OG 30, and every those those dudes walked over there going, There's no fucking difference. This guy's full of shit. And they came back going, we have to figure out how to get this in a video.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

Yeah, but but dude, that's it's funny. I I I I I'm trying to figure out a way to explain this to people. Suppressors have a problem that other gear don't have in terms of content. Like, I can show you stuff on a backpack, I can show you stuff on the on the 25 different types of hunting pants that are out there on video. Uh, I can show you all the minutiae differ diff, you know, differences, and people are gonna have perfect personal preferences, and there's value to that, right? Like the pockets are like this, the zippers are like this. I've got this is the reason I like these zippers. I can show that to you. This suppressors have a huge problem because, dude, they all sound the same on an iPhone camera. Yeah, but like you know what I mean. And and so I don't know. That's a challenge that you know you guys are gonna have, and every other suppressor company is gonna have. Like, how do you show those differences? Because it uh uh maybe you know, but I'm assuming that like there's software in these cameras that that basically do like sound equalization or something, so it's it's all the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:48

I think it's but I think you go back right right back to the sample rate issue, right? Yeah, you're just not you're capturing a weird part of the like you know, if you're if your sound wave is like this, and like if you're looking at it from pressures on your graph right here, right? And you're looking at it like this, if you're sampling right here every single time, like you're completely missing how loud it was. Right. On top of that, I think it just gets compressed down to some maximum volume level, sound sound level, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:16

Max is max. Right. So it's uh um, yeah, it's a it's a challenge, right? And then and then the part of it that I I understand that component of it is a guy who kind of produces content or whatever. The thing that I guess adds to it that that um now I mean I've got a feel for, but when you add in that there's not a real reliable quantity quantity like quantifiable way for like I can't go spend even if it was a thousand bucks, it wouldn't be for for a guy who wants to make videos about this kind of shit, you know. If it was a thousand bucks and it was reliable, I'd go buy it. And then I just set it and be like, hey, look at the number, you know. But but now you're adding in an additional complication that that's not at least right now, that does that's not a feasible thing, you know. Um, and then ignore the standard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. Yep. Um, but then you layer in the fact that we've got this regulatory environment where most people just have one, they're not exposed to a bunch. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, dude, I assume it'll just filter through the market eventually.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Yeah, it's just gonna take time.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

Yeah, people will people will be around different ones, regardless if it's one of your guys's or whatever, but they'll start to see they'll start to see these like differentials, you know. Um, which is kind of interesting. You can when you're when you're shooting with guys, particularly in an open environment, you it you can even behind guns, you you'll you do you you it very clearly there's a difference. Like, yeah, you know when you know when so and so shot or so-and-so shot, like there's a difference, but um, yeah. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

Uh two things. One, well, we figured out uh a long time ago, actually, that if you can make a suppressor go whoosh when you fire it, it's automatically quieter, regardless if it's quieter or not.

unknown 1:25:07

I like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:08

Everybody immediately is like, oh my god, that's so quiet.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:12

Um the alternative would be like a ping.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:17

Or like a crack, a crack, there's like a crack, a ping, a whoosh. There's a there's like a thump. There's a there's suppressors make all kinds of different sounds, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

Yeah.

unknown 1:25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:30

But the but the whoosh is a good good sign.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:33

Everybody wants the whoosh. I don't know why. Everybody pegs that as the quiet sound, regardless of how loud it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:43

I mean, I I totally get where you come from, dude. Somebody's gonna like clip this part and be like, look at this guy, look at Cliff trying to sell his suppressors, being like whoosh, ping, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

But but it didn't none of us go whoosh. We made ones that went whoosh, and then and then we're like, wow, this we have to meter this right now because we gotta know how quiet it is. And it was just like four decibels louder than where we were currently at with progress. It just went whoosh, so it sounded quiet.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:07

Yeah, okay. I got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:09

Yeah, it was not quieter, it was quite a bit louder, but it went whoosh, so everybody's minds went.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

Yeah, I gotcha. That's that's funny, man. Um, well, uh, dude, anything did we miss anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:25

Uh no, that's pretty much it. I think that was all your questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:29

At least we've we jumped, but yeah, no, I'm I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure we missed something. I I think it's uh it's an interesting subject. I do I do wonder what like our hunting world is gonna look like. You know, one you know, and we've referenced like the the European market and New Zealanders and the African market and all of that. And in a way, Cliff, they seem to be ahead of us. 100% but there's also a part of me that feels like because the market in the US, particularly the hunting market, is so much bigger than those markets. I mean, it's like I have no idea what it is, but it's gotta be a thousand times bigger. You know what I mean? Um, I wonder if we're not going to quickly uh innovate to that point and then we're gonna just like rapidly go past it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

I how if I had to guess, I'm speculating here. I would guess we are producing more advanced suppressors right now than they're making in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:30

I I would say that with with almost 100% confidence.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:34

Um as but as far as market maturity-wise goes, we're in we're an infant still, and they're grandpa.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:42

Yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:43

Yeah, they're they're just they're inundated with every all of the hunting culture has got suppressors. There's places you can't even hunt without a suppressor, like they're so much further ahead of us in culturally and market-wise, um with suppressor use, but technology-wise, I would venture to guess that we're probably making quieter, lighter, shorter suppressors.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:07

And is that is that solely because there's this giant amarc this giant market that everybody's trying to attack, or is it have to do with the fact you guys can iterate with the 3D printing stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:18

It's iterating with 3D printing, which I will admit is a problem at times because I can just every idea that I have I make.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

And so we're constantly innovating, which is a problem when you're trying to sell products. Um and then second to that, the market has rapidly become very competitive. So every you have to innovate or you're just not going to be successful.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

Yeah. Yeah. Well, dude, let's that's my last question to you. Um And it's gonna this is a difficult one to answer. I get it all the time, Cliff. You know, should a guy what's the argument to wait versus get one? And and not sp not specific not not specific to you guys, just in general.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:04

I'm gonna go back and say, man, like you're not why okay, why would you wait to buy a scope? Yeah, sure. It's the same argument, man. You're you're thinking about this, the whole everybody's thinking about suppressors like they're uh a thing that they're gonna use on all their rifles. So they should be thinking about it like, dude, it's part of this rifle build. Yeah, I'm gonna buy it right now because it's ready, right? And I'm gonna it's gonna go on this rifle, I'm never gonna change it. So it's gonna stay how it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:33

And then five years later, like any gun guy is gonna make another gun.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:39

Or the next month, dude. I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

I have I have way too many guns.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:43

Yeah, yeah. No, I get I get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:45

Yeah, that I I feel the same, I feel the same way about it, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:48

Oh, I I mean the technology is just gonna keep getting better. As far as like the sound decibel, how quiet you can make it, like we're already at the floor and have been for a long time. We're just doing it in smaller and smarter packages.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:01

Yeah, yeah. No, I got you. Which is I think that's a good takeaway from this conversation, man, because that's contrary to to really where the marketing is, at least from my perspective. My my perspective is it's all vault, it's all it's all the audio stuff, and then very little focus on the other stuff, at least from what I see, you know. So kind of it'll be interesting to see how that all pans out.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:25

Well, all the all the you know, the hottest suppressors today, you know, they're all very focused on the decibel rating of their suppressor. Where you know ultimately, like, once you come to the realization that like they're all kind of doing the same thing, they're just yeah, this one's shorter, this one's longer, this one's lighter, this one's heavier, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

Yeah, no, dude, there's uh there's for sure an analogy there with the archery world, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:53

I are you are you above I always I always compare it to compound bows, man. They haven't gotten any better since 2005, like they're not faster. Yeah, they're the same as they were in 2005.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:03

Yeah, well, I it's it's dude. I mean, you can extend the analogy, right? Because basically, I think everybody got to a point where they're like uh 300 feet per second is good enough. You know what I mean? Or like what's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:15

What you can reasonably do. I mean, you can push it beyond that, but then there's trade-offs, you know, they become very hard to draw. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's there's trade-offs with everything, and I think we're there with suppressors. Yeah, the the innovation is come is gonna come by in, like I said, you're gonna be able to do a lot more in a smaller footprint, and that's that's kind of where the innovation is gonna come from.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:39

No, for sure. Perfect, man. Dude, thanks for your time, man. Let people know where they can follow you, uh, unknown, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:45

Yeah, so unknown suppressors on Instagram. Uh, we have an unknown suppressors YouTube channel, which we now are actively generating content for. We have, I think, three measly little videos on there right now, but we are gonna be we are gonna be posting videos uh pretty regularly on that. Um all of our updates will be posted on there. Instagram's a great place to get the information kind of straight from us. Um other than that, unnounced pressers.com to check out all of our products. Um G30 just launched yesterday. Sweet. So yeah.

unknown 1:32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:21

Really excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:22

Awesome. Thanks, Cliff. I appreciate the time, man. Yeah, thanks, man. If you enjoyed this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliffe.com. Go there, and it's going to be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I guide, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer in the membership site, all the details are there.