Shooting and Glassing Rests Explained With Ex Army Scout Sniper Mike Herne

You almost always have a rock-solid rear rest on your body — and most hunters never use it. Cliff sits down with Mike from Tricer to break it down.

This one gets into the weeds on glassing tripods vs. shooting tripods, stabilized binos vs. tripod-mounted glass, reading bullet trace, and the simple rear-rest tricks (a puffy jacket, your pack, even your bino harness) that turn a wobbly hold into a locked-in shot.

In this episode:
Why a tripod forces systematic glassing — and why stabilized binos may cost you animals
Filming every shot: recovering wounded game and solving "misses" that were actually hits
How to read bullet trace through a spotter
Matching your tripod to the hunts you actually do
The rear-rest position that gives you two points of contact with the ground
What NRL Hunter teaches hunters about building positions under time pressure

Mike Herne - https://www.instagram.com/mike_herne
Tricer - https://tricer.com/ (CLIFFG for 10% off)

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:49

To this day, a lot of guys that I guide, they want to shoot just with a front rest in in in situations that aren't even time sensitive. But I'm amazed how many people will have a you know a six, seven, eight minute opportunity to kill an elk, you know, that's just sitting there feeding. It never crosses their mind to get something out of their pack or use their pack as a rear rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I could show you this while we're doing show and tell, right? Um, but a rear rest is as simple as I got a jacket on my mountain goat hunt. I use my rain jacket for a rear rest. I set up on the goat, but you reach your hand through the sleeve. So I reach my hand into the sleeve the opposite way it's supposed to go in. Grab as much of that jacket as you can and pull it in. And now I have now I've got something that I can put under my rifle stock, get my rifle stock rested on it. Now it's in contact with the ground. All I gotta do is squeeze it or not squeeze it to make that make that thing elevate or not elevate. And once it's in the spot, it's all breath control and a good trigger squeeze, and hopefully you're making the right wind call.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Excited to have Mike on. Thanks, Mike, for joining me. I love the fact that you're literally in the back of your truck right now. I uh um happy to have you on, dude. I'm gonna start with this one because it's gonna be a tough one, dude. Why why does the guy even need a tripod now, dude? Uh I'm I'm I'm carrying stabilized binoculars around everywhere. Well, um this is this is meant this is meant to be feisty right off the bat.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

This isn't a stumper because up until about two weeks ago, I was running around with stabilized binos, and I love stabilized binos for running and gunning. Um, and every time we would stop in glass, because it's bear season right now, every time we would stop in glass, everyone's finding bears before me. Because with stabilized bino's, my butt is like uh uh uh uh like ADD all over the place. And my buddy that's running NLPure 12s on a tripod is gridding and oh got a bear, and so so I think you know, like stabilized binos are good, they have a place running and gunning. But if you're really gonna pick country apart and and sit in glass, which I I have needed to do to find the bears I've been finding, uh being just being on a tripod automatically makes me grid. It right it tames my ADD and it makes me get systematic about picking a apart a hillside or a cliff uh or a band of cliffs, and yeah, so I think there's that, and then it's also still, I mean, with like the advent of NRL Hunter and a lot of these competitive shooting sports, there's a lot of cool improvised stability positions coming out, right? So a lot of guys are getting tripods and thinking they're gonna carry them into the backcountry. And I'm like, well, if you got a tall bipod, you know, like our bipod or or or an MDT triple pull, like you got a tall bipod and you have a tripod out there, if you use rear tripod and that gun, you might as well be laying on the ground. You're as stable as if you're laying on the ground, right? So yeah, so there's still there's still a lot of good uses for them out there. You can use them to hold your TP up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

But yeah, no, and I and it and really that question is kind of kind of tongue-in-cheek a little bit, man, because you know that I I mean honestly, dude, I've probably sold more stabilized binoculars than most guys, you know. I mean, I'm a big fan of them, I use them all the time, but dude, I still carry tripods almost like when you know there's I I if I was being honest, Mike, like there's some hunts that I I won't carry a tripod, but they're really hunts that I'm not doing any of the type of glassing that you're talking about. Like if I'm if I'm sitting anywhere for more than you know 20 minutes, 30 minutes, I'll I'll I'll have a tripod in my backpack. Um, and then man, the other thing that I I use them a lot for now is uh is you're obviously any long-range stuff, but I do all my digit digi-coping off of one. Oh which it seems like a small it's weird because I feel like videoing stuff through your spotter, your optics, people kind of view it as like a second, like a secondary thing, or it's like not a big component of hunting. It's like, oh, it's like a separate deal. But dude, I think it's a core component of hunting now. I mean 100%, you know. I mean, I try to video as many shots as I can, any of that stuff. Like, yeah, I think it's actually it's gone from being this like side deal that people do for content or whatever to being like an actual component of hunting.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, I mean, I have I've made a bad shot this year on a bear, and if we didn't have the video footage, I wouldn't have been able to send it to you or or somebody to see what you think about the shot, right? So and watch the shot back and like be like, all right, yeah. And then even for recovering animals, we never recovered that bear. I'm fairly confident I missed the hip bone. Uh, that's how bad the shot was. I guess the cat's out of the bag there, but um uh I'm fairly confident I missed the hip bone, and and but because we had that footage, we watched the bear roll, watched were the last spot that we saw him at, were able to really like dial in and pick out there was one dead tree down there in a in a sea of trees. We're able to get to the base of that tree, start blood trailing, and and start start our search relatively easily. Whereas if we didn't have that footage to replay and watch over and over again and and burn that terrible shot in my mind, it'll haunt me for the rest of the year, probably. Um, because it was a big bore. Uh sure. But if we didn't have that footage, we we wouldn't be able to do that. Like that that would void, it would have all been from memory. And there was three of us up there on the hill when I shot, and all three of us would have been saying it was a different dead tree. No, it's that dead tree over there, it was that one over there. Like, but you know, there's no there was no questions. We went in, found that tree, like this is the tree. We're able to play back the footage. There was a we got to one dead tree that we thought was it, and I was like, man, no, because that there's a downed aspen that was creating kind of a triangle on that big dead tree. And when we were able to we stayed above it and found her, like that's it, right there, and went to the base and then immediately found blood and tracked it, and obviously didn't find the bear. We didn't take the hips out because once the ground got level, he clearly had to use all fours because we were cruising his hind legs. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

All right, guys, and some of my content you're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. Should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's Cliff G and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. But but just the I mean, just goes back to the everything you just said is like so true, man. If you can video stuff, it's such a huge, it's a huge deal. I I had an interesting one. This this will this will kind of crack you up, man, because I didn't realize it until I looked at the video. Like I was editing uh I'm I'm if this video will be out probably next week or some sometime. But dude, I I killed a wildebeest in Africa, and I remember like one day we killed a bunch of them. We were we were kind of culling them, you know, whatever. So we had a it was like all these different scenarios were were stacked up in my mind. And I remember coming up to a wildebeest I had shot from fairly close range, and I walked up to him, I noticed he had a like right in where his they kind of have like a like a horse's ass, like the muscles kind of go up, you know, like that their hips go up, and he had a hole through the top of his hip, like just a muscle wound, right? And I looked at it and I was like, that is weird. Like I just shot him here, and all I was thinking is like maybe a bullet fragment, something, you know, weird shit happens, you know. Maybe, maybe it went, you know, splattered back on him or something, you know. And then I looked back when I when I was editing the video, and there was uh this wildebeest. This was like two miles away 45 minutes earlier. I missed the wildebeest, and I was trying to hit him in the head, and everybody who was watching said, Oh, you you missed above, and you see this big, you know, poof of dirt behind him, and it looks it looks obviously, it looks like I missed a foot and a half above him, man. You look, you look at the video mic, and it clipped him right in the ass cheek and bounced off. It bounced as it went through him, and then it and then it hit the dirt, and so it gave that image that I had missed him. Obviously, I had missed him in the sense that like it was a horrible shot, you know. But I would have never I would have never known that. Now I got lucky that we happened to run into the bull later and I killed him, and he was acting like nothing was going on, you know what I mean? But it it let me like tie those things together, and I guess the point of me telling the story is that like that happens all the time, and it has for years. People think, oh, I missed that bull, I missed that bear, and that that animal's like lying dead somewhere, and it's just and it's because they weren't able to get the video, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, no, that's 100%. And then like even being able to watch trace or zero your guns or confirm zero, right? Like we were talking about suppressors earlier, but you know, you're shooting if you're really trying to confirm your dope, you know. I like to shoot out to a thousand yards and make sure that my elevation, you know, I don't focus, it's kind of like a bow, I don't focus too much on windage. I want my windage good, but you can't control the wind, but I can control my elevation, right? So yeah, I want to make sure I'm hitting at the elevation, and then I can tell relatively well if the wind's blowing left or right or whatever, but but being able to confirm that elevation, I remember when I was a young, you know, E5 in the army going through sniper school, watching bullet trace through a spotting scope for the first time. Like, like people that wasn't common, people didn't know what that looked like. There was no way to describe it. They're like, just back to focus off just a little bit, and then you're gonna see this vapor trail. And I didn't know what I was looking for, and now now everybody knows what bullet trace looks like. You can see it, you can spot those rounds way out at distance, and really like just it makes life easier, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, well, to throw this back to the stabilized thing, one thing that I will tell you, at least in my experience, with stabilization, you can't pick up trace. I don't and I and you probably are more informed on this, so I want to hear like the theory, like why this might be, Mike. But I so like the SIG stabilized spotter, you can't pick up trace on it, or at least in in the situations that I've been in, you you because it's it's really handy for for calling like you know, like you're you're you're truck hunting or whatever, somebody jumps out to shoot a cow elk or something, you can just reach you grab that thing and flip it on, and you know, I'm I'm I you know I can I can see I can call a shot, but I can't see trace in it. Um, do you like do you have any any theories of why that is?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

No, I I haven't messed with the SIG stabilize spotter a bunch, but I have the the more affordable, what are they the Zulu sixes? Yeah, the the stabilize. I got the 16s, and we were if you put them in target mode, we were spotting trace with those things pretty good. It could be the range, like if you're shooting an elk 100 yards away or 200 yards away, that bullet's not getting a lot of rise, it's just yeah going straight at it. So it could be that.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

If I well, what what when when you were going through training and they were showing you because I'm intrigued by this, I mean I I've just figured out trace kind of on my own, I guess. But how do you optimize to to see it?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Uh what they what you want to do to optimize to see it is get your target in focus and then back the focus towards you just ever so slightly, so the target's just slightly out of focus closer to you. Um, that's usually how we had to do it to to be able to spot it in the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So you're you're you're kind of you're kind of focusing on the trace before it gets to the animal, so you pick you pick it up visually.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

I don't need a crystal clear image of the target to know where the round impacts, but yeah, if I can't see the trace, then I can't tell where the round impacted, you know. So yeah. So that was that was the way we always did it was like target in focus and then just back that focus towards you, not beyond the target, but closer to you. Um back it off just ever so slightly. I mean, it's it's just you want it just out of focus enough that it's an annoyance that like if you're a photographer and you're trying and that the target is perfect that you're annoyed that you missed focus by like that much, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah, but then you're perfect to see the trace. And I and I should like all I'll play with that stabilized stuff a little bit more to see, you know, it could just be me. Because I notice I notice that conditions make a huge difference too.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Conditions do. It's gotta be if it's warm and like humid and you're in a humid place, it's way easier to see the trace than you know, like cold, arid temperatures. Like right now, I'm up in the snow at like 10,000 feet, and trace would be harder to spot right now for sure. And then like sun, too, full sun's hard. Um like when the sun's just I guess I can use photography as a reference, but like when the sun's like so bright that it's blowing everything out, that makes it pretty tough too.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

So it's uh it's interesting, man, because the more and more I've gotten in tune with it, I use it so much to call a shot. I it's so much more accurate. Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, like I can, you know, even years and when I was guiding, man, you know, I'd see a ripple on an elk or you know, just or how they moved that or a bear bite back. And in my mind, I'd think, oh, I know exactly where the bullet hit, and I really didn't. Like, you know, when you see ripple, like you don't really know. I mean, it's like you could you, you know, you could have hit him like right behind the shoulder and it rippled back, and it looks like you you got shot him, you know. But man, when you look at trace and you see it, like it tells you right where the hole is, you know. Yep, yeah. So it's it's it's handy, handy that way, man. Um, what uh let's get into the tripod stuff a little bit. You know, it's funny, man. I uh I don't I haven't put it out yet, but man, I'm starting to get where I I have my truck my truck tripod and then I've got my backpacking tripod. Uh is that how is that how you do it too? Or like what what's what what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I kind of go back and forth. Like if it depends on how hard I'm going. If I'm going hard, I might err on the side of like a BC, like the smaller, lighter one. Um but nine times out of ten, I'm taking that AD with the DZ head, just because it's it's even from Binos to spotter, like it handles everything I have. Yeah, it's a little bit heavier, but also there's times, especially like right now for bears, I'm standing in glass in the lot. Like we're sure hiking up the ridge, we find a spot, we pop up everything, we kind of pick it apart, and we're like, eh, let's keep going, or or then we stay and decide to sit down, you know. So it's it's I go back and forth. If I'm if I'm going steep and deep, I'm definitely taking something a little smaller and lighter and we'll we'll sit down. But I definitely like the versatility of the taller tripod and being able to stand. And I have ADD, I don't sit still well anyways. So so that makes it tough too.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

But yeah, the the reason I asked, man, because I I I would say universally, I would be carrying like you know, like a backpacking size tripod almost all the time. But man, the uh your your guys' JC tripod, that's the big one, right? That it's got the it's got like the micro pan built into it. Yep. Um, dude, when I pick that up, I'm like, I'm never gonna use this. This thing's way too freaking heavy. But now, dude, I now I leave it, it's my truck all the time. I use it out of the I because it it matters, dude. The weight matters, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Oh yeah, it gets it gets those legs super stable, and you can take those weights out. I don't know if you know that or not.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Oh no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

How how how do you do it? So in you unscrew the foot, and then there's anchor weights, there's anchor weights in each of the legs, and then in the bottom of the center column, if you unscrew that hook, there's also an anchor weight in there. So that's raw. I think it goes down. I think it I don't want to misquote it, but I think it gets once you take those anchor weights out, it's like a three or four-pound tripod, it's not super heavy.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Oh, okay. I'm I'm freaking naive, dude. It's the thing is though, even while you're saying that, man, I kind of think to myself, why would I want to do that?

SPEAKER_01 17:34

No, yeah, that thing is ultra stable. Yeah, that and that I tell people like they come up and they're like, This thing's huge, it's heavy. I'm like, well, you can lighten it up, but I still to me you can't lighten it up enough for me to justify packing it in somewhere, especially the bulk, right? Yeah, and still, and especially not with everything else that that we have now, like that 360 can go on top of the AD and basically give you the ability to do the same thing, like with the as far as micro panning goes, but but it uh I mean I tell guys, I'm like, this is your Suaro BTX, like picking apart country in Arizona, like big bull country, not far from roads, finding finding animals tripod, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, well, dude, that's the thing, right? It's like I use the uh rifle weight analogy, right? I mean, you can't, in my mind, you can't really deny the fact. I mean, that it doesn't, you know, you can you can get into stocks and you can get into all these different things. We can talk about suppressors and mitigating muzzle flip and recoil and all that stuff, but in the end, the weight of the rifle generally correlates to people liking to shoot it more, right? Like it's yeah, it's like one of those undeniable physics things, and I feel like tripods are kind of like that too. It's like bulk and weight, you can uh it just is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

You have, yeah. I mean, you there it's I feel like in hunting, whether it's archery or you're hand loading rounds or whatever, you're always robbing Peter to pay Paul. So you always you gotta make a sacrifice somewhere to to gain something, you know. So if you're if you're shooting an ultralight gun and it's a 300 PRC, uh she's gonna kick like a mule, you know? Yeah, um, yeah, and and same with tripods, right? Like if you want to be as stable as possible, uh that added weight helps. Like uh Cody Nelson, you know Cody? Yeah. We just we hired him and Cody, Cody's the big X hexagonal leg tripods that we made for shooting and like competition shooting. Cody's glassing off of that thing. He's like, I have not found anything more stable. I'm like, well, yeah, the freaking the legs are as big around as as my legs, you know. Sure, they got anchor weights in the feet, like that's gonna be ultra stable, but for most guys, that's not practical. For you know, like I always go back to Arizona just because there's so many roads and you can't vehicle-based coos deer hunting. Yep, yep, yep. So for those guys, yeah, if you really want to get stable, yeah, you can maybe make that sacrifice, but for you know, the majority of the the western states, like most guys are trying to, you know, guys are cutting a handle off their toothbrush or not taking their toothbrush into the field at all, right? So to save the weight, that doesn't make sense to take that big thing in there, guys.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

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SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, they're light, they're glassing off that, or they're you know, a lot of guys like the you know, the ASIAC guys, they have a light, you know, real super lightweight one, and they're glassing off of that next to their truck. And I and I totally get that you know that not everybody is gonna have the budget to have 10 tripods or whatever, but there, but there is an element, you know, Mike, where I'm like, you gotta guys gotta think about what kind of hunts they're actually doing. Like, are you going on a backpack hunt once every three years and then all the rest of your hunting is truck based? Yeah, it it but but you've gone for you you've purchased the ultralight one that's sub sub-ideal for really the majority of your hunting, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's it's one of those things I think is funny.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, we I think we're work we're working on a questionnaire for guys, like part of a tripod builder that asks those type of questions to help guys because that's probably the number one question we get at trade shows and stuff is like, what tripod do I need? I'm like, Well, what are you doing with it? Like, you need all what are you doing primarily? Like, are you primarily shooting off from it? Are you glassing 90% of the time and want to have the ability to shoot if the occasion arises and you need it? Uh, are you hunting from the truck? Are you backpack hunting? Do you like to stand in glass? Do you like to sit? Glass, like all those factors play in. But yeah, you do you see guys buy for the the one percent of trips and then the gear they have for the rest of them, which in some cases, like I don't know, take Kafaru, for example. They're a bit, they're they're on the heavier side of backpacks, but but until somebody does something different, like they carry quarters and weight than anything I've had. And when it comes to backpacks, I always err on the side of like I want more backpack than not enough. And and I kind of kind of goes the same way with tripods. Like, unless I know it's gonna be brutal, I want more tripod than not enough.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, dude, it's like a stable platform when you're glassing, it's one of those things. Trying to think how I describe it, Mike. It's like you don't like the little incremental benefit of it, it's not super apparent, but it adds up. Does that make sense? It's like it, but then but the negative is obvious. Like when I'm trying to shove in my, you know, could do it. I I backpack almost universally, particularly if I, you know, when I was guiding a lot of sheep and goat hunts, I always carried an 85, sometimes a 95. And it's like every time I stuck it into my backpack, and then of course I'd stick a big, you know, for years I had, you know, and and this was back when I think Cody was working for outdoorsmans, like I always had a big, bulky outdoorsman tripod, and I backpacked with that freaking thing. Cause it's just it, it if every time I shoved it in my pack, I I was like, man, this is gonna this is painful. Like, can I do without it? But the minute I would change, and dude, many times I'm like, oh, this hunt, this hunt, I'm gonna take a lightweight one, I'm gonna take whatever I was at the time. You know, for years I used like slick tripods too, you know, like the lightweight ones, carbon ones. And every time I'd go to a smaller tripod, two days into the trip, I'm like, nah, this is not wishing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, you gotta kind of just figure out that compromise. But uh, you uh you mentioned something there I wanted to uh ask you about because I actually had a buddy that was the hit me up hit me up about it this morning. This idea of a tripod that you can shoot off of and glass off of. Like what what you guys think about on that front, man?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

I mean, you could shoot off from all of them, but are they built for shooting or built for glassing would be more of the more of the question. And and you know, we kind of talked about it, we kind of talked about it earlier what when you asked me. I think unless you absolutely have to take a standing shot, which in the field I haven't found many times where I've had to take shoot standing tripod. Um if you have a tripod in the field, you're far better off improvising a position and using that tripod as your rear support. Um, but there's still there's still guys that like, oh, I want the best of both worlds and be able to take one to the range and do this and that with. And then I mean the the cool thing about tricer is that Drew didn't want anything to be proprietary, right? So everything, even the base of our tripod heads, if you look at the base of all our heads, they're machine for ARCA Swiss. So I can stack heads on heads on heads on heads because everything's machine for ARCA. So, my like go-to for the guys that want to be able to shoot off their tripod that like firm they have to have a shooting tripod, would probably be the HK with either the AK head, which is uh our single point attention lever, lever inverted ball head, which is made specifically for shooting, and then put the LP on top of that, just clamp that in there for glassing, or uh the DZ. The DZ head is my probably my favorite head because of that. It's got a ball on it, so you can still level up your rifle and it makes it. I mean, out here glassing, especially I'm glassing with binos, and I don't use the post, I use a ring on my binos. So having that D and being able to just flip that lever and then level out the head is freaking awesome. It just makes it so quick to get everything set up and rocking and rolling.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, I got you. So you're you're using the pan head to glass, but you're you're just straightening it out with the ball head.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, or like if we're sitting in a camp chair, right? Like I'm sitting in a camp chair right now. You take your tripod legs and make them wide enough to go over the top and bring it back so you can actually sit in comfy glass. Because like I'm looking at a cliffside where I saw a bear last Sunday, it's yeah, there might be too much snow on it, but but I was hoping to come up here and find them and get them killed. But I've been in this camp chair at the back of my truck with my glass with my legs spread out. But when you bring that back, now the center column of your head or the center column of your tripod's like this. So being able to flip that ball and then bring everything up to level is is pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah, I get I I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, that is a bunch of versatility because you can kind of manipulate that tripod in different ways, or you don't have to level, you don't have to level your glass using the legs all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Now, now your downside is you got height, right? You got height over your center.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, you got height of center, and then it's obviously when it's all spread out like that, it's not going to be as stable, but yeah, but you can once I like out here where I'm at right now, like I'll be glassing like that. And then once I find an animal and I throw the spotter on, I'm collapsing that thing down, putting it next to me, laying down next to my gun. Like, so I'm I'm bringing it back to a more stable position if I can, if I have time.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah. So no, I got you. Now, uh, dude, let's break down the two because not everybody listening to this may understand because we've kind of we kind of jumped beyond the or through the concept of like what people you generally prefer for shooting versus glassing. It like, what is that to you? That's is it is it is it simple as uh ball head versus pan head? Is that basically what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

I mean it so it's also nuanced based on if somebody is primarily shooting or or not shooting, right? Because like a pan head, yeah, can you get away and use it as a support for your rifle? 100%. Are you gonna be able to level your glass up? Because you want if you're shooting longer distances, you want to be as level as you can on the rifle. Uh no, but it really it's so nuanced. That's why like at the trade shows I have to really pick, I keep asking people questions to find out. But but I would say, you know, like the DZ head, you can pan and tilt, and then you have the ball to get level. Yeah, but then there's guys that you know, if they're taking an 800-yard shot, they might want to prone out that tripod and be able to shoot off from it super stable, which which is gonna be a little bit harder to do with our glassing tripods, even though the new ones come with that short center column. They still stick down a little bit, but you can still get pretty dang close to prone on those. Uh, but the legs are built for guys carrying it in the backcountry, guys like you that are carrying an 85mm spotter, which is heavy, and or 95, which is even heavier, right? And and to keep that kind of size and weight down will still give you enough stability to glass with it. So, yeah. I mean, does it work? Yes, but I guess the biggest thing for a guy or Gail listening, I would say, is if you were buying a tripod for you want to be able to do all of it with it, you could do that with just about any tripod. But like, are you primarily shooting off from it, like going to the range and trying to shoot standing? Um, you need if you're gonna shoot standing, you want bigger, more robust legs, and you don't want a center column. Um, and then if you're trying to shoot, you know, prone or whatever, you still don't want that center column, but you can get away with with shorter or thinner, less robust legs.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah, so yeah, no, I've I I follow Mike. And what you're what you're just for clarity for people who are listening, the center column, the limitation there is that you're talking front rest. The problem is the center column hits hits the ground before you get low enough.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

If you want to get low enough, yeah. And that's one of the reasons Drew came up with that, so you could just pop that little center column that comes in there because there's we got our long one, it's like 16 inches, and then we got the short one that you just pop in there, and then you can you can prone that bad boy out. So, what I've I mean, I've even told people that are die hard dead set on having the ability to shoot off the tripod if they need to. I said you can put that inverted ball head that we make for shooting on that small center column, lock it in there, and then if you find an animal out here and you decide you need tripod support, uh you pull that long center column out with the glass in it, put that short center column in, and then you can get as short as you need it to go.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Oh, yeah, I got you, because you can just drop it through the top. Yep. Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. No you you touched on something that I think is interesting, man. You kind of alluded to the idea that people probably maybe under underestimate the value of using a tripod as a rear rest. Okay, so okay, so do I want to dive into this a little bit more? So if I if if I like in my mind, usually what I'll have with me, my tripod will be optimized for glassing. Because in my mind, it's like that's what I'm primarily using it for. Obviously, there's a little bias there because I'm guiding. So you know, like you know, I'm focused on that. The hunter, to they should kind of be set up with their own type of rest. Like the last thing I'm gonna do is like, hey, you're gonna use the rest now that I have for you. Of course, you know, that's there's it depends, right? How well somebody's prepared, if that's the truth or not. But I get giving that context, I usually optimize to as low as I can. I like to have it low, uh, you know, low into the center of the tripod. So I I like you guys' 360, but generally that's the only layer I'll have in there below my below my uh pan head. Now, a guy, I mean, what's your what's your honest opinion on this? If a guy said, hey, I want to optimize for glassing, and I'm not even gonna worry about shooting off my tripod, I'm just gonna use my pack, uh, you know, whatever is a front rest, and I'm just gonna like explain how a guy would use the rear rest. And is he really giving in your mind? Is he giving up that much? Like, could can you shoot just as well with your tripod as your rear rest with your forearm of your rifle over your backpack versus like prone, like low prone with the tripod as the front? Does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, um, you'll shoot better with your rifle rested on something, the front end of your rifle, the fore end of your stock rested on something that's in contact with the ground. Ideally, it would be like a bipod or something, but if your pack is all you had and you wanted to set that up and then using your your rifle or your tripod as a rear rest, um, you're gonna be because now you have two points of contact with the planet, like with planet Earth. And like that, the the most stable rest in the world is the ground. The ground doesn't move. Um, and you're trying to take out as much muscular input as you can, right? So the guys that stand their pack up and rest their rifle on their pack, like now they're all, and then you see a lot of guys that shoot with their elbow up, which now they're using muscle tension to support the weight of the tripod. Like that's why in the military one, and we don't we want to make ourselves smaller targets, but that's why in the military we're like this. Like, yeah, we it gets drilled into our heads not to chicken wing because you're trying to use your bones as much as you can to support the rifle. Um, and then if you can keep bones in contact with your knee or the ground, anything, any way to get in contact with the ground. I I had an elk client last year uh killed his bull at 980 yards shooting my 7 PRC off the the RP bipod that we make, and he had that bipod fully extended. The only position I could get him in to see shoot that bull was seated. So I took my pack and put it in his lap, his pack and put it in his lap. So he has two packs stacked in his lap. I'll use this. So he's got packs stacked in his lap, and now his arms are resting on his packs, which are resting on his legs, which are resting on the ground, right? So he's built as stable of a position. It took him eight rounds, but he hit the bull and killed it. Um, but you know, so so that low prone, if they have a rear bag, that low prone on a tripod is gonna be super stable, uh, or if they have a like a rear support, like a sand sock, but but um by and large, like the more points of contact with that rifle in planet earth that you can get, and as much muscular input as you can remove is gonna be as stable as you can get.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Yeah, no, no, I I got you, man. And so there's a couple things I want to dig in there. One, Mike, I want you to describe because not I know that there's tons, I mean, in guys that are listening to this, there's tons of content, particularly with the competitive scene now, guys using tripods as a rear rest. Um, so go go check out those videos. But Mike, do you do you mind describing exactly what we're talking about? Like how you would use a tripod as a rear rest?

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yep. So you take one of your legs, you take one of the apexes of the tripod, you bring the leg in, it'd be easier if I had something. I got this gun here I could use. Um, so you take the leg, bring that sucker in, you're gonna wrap your shooting hand around. So if I got a gun here, and this is my tripod leg, my shooting arm is wrapped around that leg. I'm bringing my stock into my shoulder, and then I'm using my hand to support the stock on that tripod leg. So now the the fore end of my rifle supported by a pack, or I like I really like that RP bipod. That is a super stable position. It's not it's not a sales pitch, that bipod just goes up to 30 inches tall, so I can shoot from the knee. Yeah, and then so the stock of my rifle is right here on my shoulder, and I'm using my hand to pinch the stock of the rifle against that stock, and I am I mean you are just locked in tight.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Yeah, so so your rear hand, you're C clamping your stock in the tripod.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yep, and the tripod, yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. There was a the gun is clear, there's no mag in it. Um, so if this is my shooting hand, my shooting hand's coming around the tripod leg's coming through right here, and I'm using that rear hand to clamp it against the tripod, and then I can just easily lower or raise elevation just by moving my stock up the up the tripod leg. So it makes it super, I mean, it's it's ultra stable. And I'll be honest, when I went to Army Sniper School and working in Army Sniper organizations, this was back in before 2012. I don't know the exact date, but but that stuff wasn't a thing, you know. We weren't we weren't really shooting off of tripods back then, but like the the advent of and I give a lot of credit to the the NRL hunter competition series. I mean, if if the way those guys they have so little time, you know, they got four minutes to glass and find targets between like four and eight hundred yards, they're not big targets, and they got to engage those targets from different positions, so they have to improvise a position on the clock really quickly, and then they have to make well-aimed shots, like that's the name of the game to win. They got to hit what they're aiming at. So the way these guys have figured out how to improvise shooting positions is is it's cool. And I like I didn't know about rear tripod until I until I started hanging around with some of these PRS shooters, and I'm like, holy cow, like I have a tripod all the time. I have now I have a 15-ounce bipod that goes to 30 inches all the time. Like, there's no reason I can't shoot, like build the most stable position possible.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, dude, I I think I think you can generalize that across hunting in the sense of just the lack of using a rear rest, Mike. I mean I mean, outside of even the tripod bipod discussion, to this day, a lot of guys that I guide, they want to shoot just with a front rest in in in situations that aren't even time sensitive. And I mean, the in in time sensitivity sensitivity is so interesting to me because people don't realize in the hunting scenario, like four minutes is not much time at all. People, I don't know if you've noticed this, Mike, people get this weird perception when they're hunting, and I think it's because they they don't get as many reps at it, but I've guided many guys that they were in a they felt like they were in a huge hurry or didn't get an odd they didn't feel like they had a real opportunity, but if you timed the scenario, they had like 10 minutes. It's just that it's just that the last minute when they were in a big hurry, the bull walked off. You know what I mean? They had like you have long periods of time sometimes. I'm not I'm generalizing, I'm not saying all the time, but I'm amazed how many people will have a you know a six, seven, eight minute opportunity to kill an elk, you know, that's just sitting there feeding, and they it never crosses their mind to get something out of their pack or use their pack as a rear rest.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

I mean, I I religiously do it, and yeah, and I could I could show you this while we're doing show and tell, right? Um, so a rear rest is as simple, and most guys have a puffy jacket. This isn't a puffy jacket, but a rear rest. I mean, that bear I made a bad shot on. I said I yelled at the guys, I was like, hey, get my pack, get me my game bag pack. Sure, my pack game bags, and that's what I used as a rear rest. But a rear rest is as simple as I got a jacket, and I've I've on my mountain goat hunt, I use my rain jacket for a rear rest set up on the goat, but you reach your hand through the sleeve. So I reach my hand into the sleeve the opposite way it's supposed to go in. Grab as much of that jacket as you can and pull it in. And now I have now I've got something that I can put under my rifle stock, get my rifle stock rested on it. Now it's in contact with the ground. All I gotta do is squeeze it or not squeeze it to make that make that thing elevate or not elevate. And once it's in the spot, it's all breath control and and a good trigger squeeze, and hopefully you're making the right wind call. Right. Yeah. I mean, but you literally have a rear rest on you if you're wearing, you know, if you have any kind of puffy jacket, rain gear, like you can literally make a rain rear rest that fast. Takes me no time at all.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah, no, for sure. Man, I I even noticed for me that if I'm in a position where I can kind of push my bino harness forward, and then the the littlest, I mean, I can even use my bino harness to some extent, but the littlest, the littlest material against that bino harness is enough, you know what I mean, to to to do a rear rest. I yeah, I guess the point is, at least from my perspective, is you almost always have a rear rest. Always, you know, and so it's why why not take advantage of it outside of the most like tiny shot window opportunity. You really should have one, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, I mean, and I again it goes back to if you're shooting with just a forward rest or if you're shooting just off a tripod supported. There's a lot I'm not good at that. I'll be I'll be honest. I murdered, I murdered a lot of coyotes this season, and it was at nighttime, and and 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards, especially at 300 yards and beyond. I missed a lot of coyotes. I I educated a lot of coyotes this year, and I'm shooting standing tripod at night with a thermal, and it is just that there's so much nuance to the amount of weight and how you put yourself on the gun because that that that guns on a tripod, it has one point of access, right? So it's still it's still really only one point of support, and then all your muscular input back at the stock and on the on the hand guard and then your cheek to stock weld, like all that stuff comes into play on that standing tripod. So so even if you're on a tripod, I would argue that having two points of contact with planet Earth, be it a bipod, pack, cattle gate, like whatever, two points of contact, one in the front and one in the back of the rifle is gonna be you're gonna be 10 times more accurate than just one point of contact with the planet, even if that's a tripod that has three legs on the ground, still only has one axis where it's being supported.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

So it's still just your front rest if you're using it that way. And that and man, I I acknowledge that this is for me personally, is probably a matter of repetition. I'm sure the NRL guys and and those guys are they you know they get very good at this, but one of the things that and it it is one of the primary reasons that I personally usually don't shoot off of a uh tripod or at least one like a lot of times I'll just I'll put something on there or something like that. I don't I don't shoot off one locked in, is I find it very hard to get to to manipulate the rifle, you know like for follow-up shots and that sort of thing, Mike. Like even even a bipod is much easier for me to just pick up and move, right? Like wounded elk, he's he's running for a saddle. I can pick up and move, right? Yeah, tripod, it's unwieldy for me to pick up and move. Yeah, you know, it can be, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

I mean, I think you get reps behind like a uh like behind our DH or AK head, which it's only one point of tension. But if you have to pick up and go, yeah, because then you got I mean, you got this long axis sticking down, and and like that's why I switched this year from I was a tripod guy even when I was hunting coyotes during the daytime, which during the daytime you're sitting, you're trying to get in cover, um, and and And I was a tripod guy, and then a coyote would, you know, swing downwind to try to get wind, swing downwind of the call. And I couldn't swing on them fast enough with a tripod to get them with a bipod. I'm up, down, and that coyote's on the ground. So it's there's definitely something to be said for that. And you can use like for like the listener's sake, you can use your pack as a rear rest. I killed my mule deer this year. I was on a side hill, super steep side hill. I had the RP bipod on this rifle, and I extended that thing all the way because there was cactus and everything else. I couldn't sit to get a good position. There's rocks everywhere. So I extended that RP all the way. I threw my pack off and put my pack underneath the gun and use that as a rear rest. And I would, I mean, I was locked out. So, or trekking poles. I know, I know guys that have used their trekking poles as a rear rest, just to have something in contact with the ground, and then in contact with the stock of your rifle while you make that shot. I mean, you'll just and people can go and try it. They don't have to even go to the range to try it out. Just get a bipod or or go out to a fence or something, rest the front of your rifle on a fence, or use your bipod, and then get a trekking pull or get your backpacket down on one knee and get that under you and like aim at something without any rear rest and watch the amount of wobble in your in your crosshairs and then and then stick that rear rest in there and just watch it. I mean, it only moves when you breathe, really. So it's it's a it's a no-brainer, and it it like honestly, it didn't click for me until like the last two years. So it's it's but now that it clicks, like I always thought about a sand sock because that was pretty common for us in the military. We would like when we went to sniper courses, we'd fill socks with sand before they had these nice fancy rear bags and stuff, and then we were trying, we were cutting open, we were buying the big bean bag chairs that had the microfoam in them. We were trying to make them lightweight. We were doing all kinds of stuff. We were just filling our OD green military socks and tying a knot in it and putting a couple zip ties on there, and that's what we'd carry around for our rear support. And um, and so like I always thought about like a sandbag for the prone or zeroing, like always wanted a rear support, but I never really thought about improvising rear supports for those positions above prone, if if you will.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

So, yeah, yeah. But but to your point, like it's again, it's very feasible. We're almost all hunting with backpacks. Like, if you're because I I mean, I think that in a lot of the hunts, and to tell me if you have a different opinion, but a lot of the hunts that we're talking about, seated becomes very like a huge chunk of seated or kneeling, is becomes a disproportionate amount of the actual shots we take. Um, and that a a backpack, like a backpacking backpack is a good rear rest. Yeah, like it's it's right there, you always got it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yep, you know, even if it's even if it's like a backpack and your hand on the backpack and the stock resting on your hand, that's still better than just you and your muscles and your body, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, no, for sure, man. And I uh it you said something that I I kind of at least smiled in my own mind. You said it's like a no-brainer and like go practice it, but man, I think I think Mike, and I'm I don't mean to like shit on people, but people like to think about it hypothetically, but they never physically do it. Obviously, the guys doing NRL do this shit all the time because it's the core component. But your average hunter, they have hypothetical, like I cannot tell you how many times, and this, and I know this is not just guys that go on guided hunts. I know this is hunters in in in the whole universe of hunters. How many guys are walking around in the mountains and they have hypothetically figured out their rests in their mind, but they have not actually done it one time. Yes, like if you if you ask them, you say, Hey, if a if a bull elk walks out right here at 300 yards, what rests are you gonna use? Usually they'll have an answer and then it'll be like, Have you ever done that? Be like, no, but it'll work.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

It's like it'll work, and then in the moment your bracket goes to poo-poo and you're freaking well, there's so many little things, dude.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Like, I'm my body's different than yours, so I you know, I can tell you, I can I can tell you how like I like my backpack, I turn it where the back, you know, it's gonna it's gonna fall towards me. It works perfect for seated position for me. You may be different, and if you think you're gonna do that, if you don't go try it, when you go try it, it doesn't work because the bag the bag might be a little too tall or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yeah, yeah. No, it's you know, I mean the thing is, guys, like, well, I don't have the money to shoot all the rounds. I didn't say shoot around, just go practice building the position. Um, one of my best friends, Cody Covey, drew a bighorn sheep tag a couple years ago, and this is really when I started my eyes got open to this stuff. I had a buddy who ran a gun shop and he was a PRS shooter. Uh, and so I was like, hey, would you mind, you know, like I I mean I went to army sniper school and I've done all these these things and and shot a gun for a living, but I know I don't know what those guys know. Like, I'm not learning competitions, and so I was like, Would you mind, you know, like he's not a gun hunter, he's a bow hunter through and through, like the dude's a murderer with a bow, and then you get him behind a gun. He can shoot a gun. I'm not I'm not saying he's not proficient, but he's not a gun hunter. So the stuff that he taught us about even like if you are shooting unsupported, like locking your legs out and sticking your butt out, like look like a you know, stripper leaning on the pole. Yeah, um, like, but the stuff that he taught us was invaluable, and that's when my eyes were opened to like, holy cow, there's a wealth of knowledge that's in that competitive shooting community that it takes a it takes a while for that stuff to come out to the average hunter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Dude, I know uh uh given that you've been working for Tricer, do you do you go to a lot of the competitions, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Oh, I've been to a few of them. I haven't I haven't actually went and competed. I gotta I gotta grow a pair now that I'm actually retired from the military. I have time. So I gotta grow a pair. I'm gonna build a gun and I'm gonna go out there and and try to compete. I gotta kinda get my ego in check and get prepared for it to get hurt.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I've kind of felt the same, the the same about it is you just gotta do it. I mean, I'll get crushed when I go to one, you know what I mean? You you you you realize that, but I I haven't even been to one to observe one in person. Um, but I you know, I talked to a lot of people who I mean I I I talked to a lot of I I mean I know a handful of guys that have kind of in a way quit hunting because they they just kind of prefer competitive shooting, you know what I mean, which is cool in its own right. But uh what's your feel on the ones you've been to, Mike? Do you are they are there are the are they univers do you think they universally apply to hunting? Do you think there's little things that a guy might you know has to be cognizant of that doesn't really apply to hunting? Do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

You know, uh I can speak to NRL Hunter because I've been to those. Uh PRS, like the Precision Rifle Series, those guys are shooting 20-pound guns, yeah. Different deal, yeah. Six dasher, right? So it doesn't matter what what kind of brake you got on your gun or this or that, like that gun ain't moving, like it's in place, but it weighs, you know, it weighs 20 pounds. I'm not carrying a 20-pound gun anywhere. Um and you're not shooting most animals with a six-dasher at any kind of range that matters, but like I would say for NRL Hunter, I think I and and I'm in the community because I'm the community manager for Tricer, and we're one of the sponsors. And I see guys, I actually just the other day saw a guy uh in the in the community Facebook page. He said, You know, I don't understand like doing this, this, and this. Like, you give us this amount of time to set up, shouldn't we be having time to set up and make an ethical shot? And I'm like, Well, in hunting, you don't always have that time. And then they were talking about the emperor, you got us shooting off of barricades and off of weird, funky positions off of rocks and crazy stuff. And I'm like, Well, stuff that stuff happens in the field, and and if you haven't trained for it or you haven't experienced it, then yeah. So does it apply by and large all the time? No, but do the the guys and gals that go out and shoot those events and and and put themselves out there and and practice, are they gonna be am I gonna as I like if I'm guiding them, am I gonna want to if I gotta pick two people to take on a hunt? I could take the best, like the guy that says he's the best hunter in the world or your average NRL hunter competitor. I'm gonna pick the average NRL hunter competitor because I know they know how to build and improvise a position. Like, and not only do they know how to do it, but they know how to do it under pressure. Is it the same pressure as when an animal's in front of you? No, but time creates pressure when you're trying to win something, so it still creates that. It's it's as close as you can get, I think. Um, and it's just it's cool, like I said, watching those guys, just being around those guys and watching them shoot stages and the way that they're they're setting the rifle up, the way they're building precision, like some of the nuanced stuff, like yeah, they're they're finding all their targets first, and then they're writing down their ranges and they're dope.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

So they're they're they're they gotta play a game, they're competing.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Yeah, there's a game to it, but like by and large, that that that specific competition series, NRL Hunter, I 100% think it's making better hunters out of people, and then it's making a better hunter out of me, and I haven't even competed, right? Like I I'm picking up all these tips and tricks because these guys are trying to get a competitive edge, and now I'm like, well, that gives me a competitive edge in the field. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yeah, and like I said, dude, I'm pretty naive to it. Uh, I would love to spend some time at them, but I have having said that, I would say that, dude, you've you're spot on. I mean, I I know in my experience, Mike, like in the later years of my guiding, all my hunters, just for like 10 minutes, we would just go through and build the positions we're going to with what they're carrying in their pack. And that, I mean, I, you know, I of course don't have the exact data, but I think it made them twice as good. Oh, you know what I mean? So I can only imagine folks that are out there building positions all the time and they have those reps, regardless of their hunting experience, they're gonna be way better at that component of it. I mean, you know, I think that's that's for sure the for sure the case, man. Um but uh yeah, yeah, no, for for sure. Dude, uh, I've already had you on for an hour. It's been it's been interesting. Yeah, yeah, no, it's been uh it's been interesting, man. Do you have any other any other thoughts on on glassing stuff or or or anything like that that we haven't haven't covered? Like any takeaways for guys, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

I mean, my my my number one takeaway is even if you're running stabilized binos, uh you are going a tripod is if you're picking apart country and trying to find animals, a tripod is going to make you it's gonna force you to be systematic. It's it's just it puts that I I mean I literally up until two weeks ago, Cliff was running around. I and I don't have our our adapter for the to put those stabilized bino's on the on the tripod. I actually lost the the the arca portion of that. I got you, sure. I lost it. So so I I went back to my Suro NL Pier 12s because I can put them on. I was like, I have to stop. Like I was watching my buddy consistently find bears before me, and I'm like, well, the only thing that I'm not doing that he's doing is I'm I'm still trying to scan, but my ADD is gonna get the best of me every second time. That tripod forces me now it's on there, and it's just automatic that I am pan tilt, pan, tilt, you know, whether it's up or down or whatever. Like I'm I'm panning and tilting. So um, and then I guess I would just say, you know, there's different tripods for different things, and you can make a lot of things work. Like you don't have to have the best, but like a good, a good tripod setup is is definitely gonna make you more effective glassing and and and a good tripod setup. Don't underestimate that you have to have a tripod to shoot. Um, how many, I mean, how many clients have you had that had to take a standing shot? Outside, don't talk about Africa. Africa's a different beast. Yeah, but but out here, Western big game, like how many clients have had to take a standing shot where it wasn't you know the elk running in front of them at 30 yards where you don't have time to get on a tripod anyways, and you shouldn't miss one that close, right? But like how many have had to shoot from the standing position in your pretty pretty much unheard of, man.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

And I and I would add to it, Mike, in the sense that there's there's situations where people think they need to shoot standing, and it's no slower for them to drop to a knee or drop to their ass. You know what I mean? It's really no slower. Uh, or there's a tree right there. You know, there's a lot of like I'm sure you've seen that with folks that that you hunt with too. There's an element of, and it probably comes back to the the rep thing. Like, I mean, even if an elk is at 50 yards and he's looking at you, if there's a tree three feet away from you, don't shoot them offhand, like slam your rifle against the tree. You know, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's these these little things are they're so they're so obvious when me and you me and you say them, but they're not obvious in the moment, really. You know, they're not.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

And I can I can call that out. I've been that guy, like oh yeah, me too, yeah. I didn't learn, I didn't like learn this stuff without making those mistakes as much or if not more than everybody out there listening to it. Like I made I'm still gonna make mistakes, I'm still making mistakes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

So yeah, no, for sure, man. I and on the stabilize point you make, I mean, I think we differ a little bit on it in the sense that for me it's just different applications, you know what I mean? I'm just doing different applications with one vers versus the other, but uh, but no, I hear you on that. And I will I will add this the stabilize the stabilized stuff, it still benefits from stabilization if you have it, you know what I mean? Like like that, I I think people don't realize that, and it's not obviously the stabilization is controlling the movement, but it's not the fact that you're not framing and that sort of thing, it still creates fatigue, you know. That like because you're not you, you know, that you like this, like you have to be go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

I I mean, so you know, I was I've been bear hunting and I started with the with the stabilized binos and then went to the went to the non-stabilized bino's only because I didn't I didn't have the piece to put those stabilized by no's on, but but now I just went from bear hunting to coyote hunting, and in the coyote game, you don't have you're not setting up a tripod. So those stay like glassing with my 12s or even 10s, like I notice the handshake and come so much. I I have a lot of guys tell me when they look through my stabilized stuff, like, oh, it makes me sick. And I'm like, you know, I honestly feel the opposite. Now that I'm really hand holding 12s, I'm like, well, my eyes are all wonky. Um just because of that shake and that that your eye constantly twitching, going back to center because you got this going on at the same time. Uh a guy at uh Trent Swanson at Suoro uh shows people he'll have people hold glass, hand hold glass, and move and watch the side of their eyeball, and their eyeballs like this. Oh, yeah. Because it's constantly going to center. And and that, I mean, you don't think about it until you see it, but that that fatigues your eye muscles. Yeah, that makes you less effective over time. Um, so I'm I'm a hundred percent um, but like you said, different applications. Yeah, like yeah, I regretted not having those stabilized by noes out there on the coyote stands, uh, but then up here, like where I know I'm putting it on a tripod, I can get away with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yeah, no, I uh I hear you, man. Well, good stuff, dude. I think we left people with with a pile of uh a pile of of our our thoughts, man. So that's uh that's awesome, dude. Let people know where they can follow you and and all that on all the stuff on that side, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Um for me, I'm just uh Mike underscore hearn on the Instagram. I don't I'm pretty much only on Instagram. I got a Facebook, but that's more friends and family. Sure. They can check out Tricer stuff. They want to check out Tricer, and that's just Tricer.com or uh Tricer Gear, I want to say on Instagram. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Cool. Well, thanks, dude. I appreciate you coming on, man. Appreciate you having me, brother. If you enjoyed this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliffe.com. Go there, and it's going to be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I guide, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer in the membership site, all the details are there.