HIGH FENCE vs. FREE RANGE - The Texas Experience IS CHANGING - Brian Gilroy

Brian Gilroy runs Wildlife Partners, the largest exotic animal breeding operation in North America and a Cape buffalo herd that didn't exist in private hands a decade ago. He's also hunted Dall sheep in remote Alaska, muskox on Nunivak Island, and elk in New Mexico. This episode is a reality check on how the hunting industry actually works and why the free-range vs. high-fence moral war is mostly mythology from Brian's perspective.

Texas is now on South Africa's radar as a direct competitor. Same animals, same large high-fence model, no 13-hour flight, five-star lodges, and populations of kudu, Cape buffalo, sable, and ibex growing every year. Brian explains the economics of exotic breeding as a tax strategy (why a self-reproducing kudu cow beats a tractor), why CWD has made native cervid breeding almost impossible, why put-and-take hunting is a dead model, and what a Wyoming or New Mexico application really costs over a lifetime. The episode closes with Brian's Alaska sheep story... the outfitter who knew every animal, flew him to the sheep, and pointed him at it. The honest question: why is that different from hunting 15,000 acres in Texas?

Texas vs. South Africa — why SA should be genuinely worried
Cape buffalo in Texas
Kudu, sable, red deer: population growth and what hunts will cost in five years
Why CWD killed native cervid breeding and exotics filled the gap
Exotic breeding as a business — 100% depreciation on an animal that reproduces itself
The real cost of a sheep draw, a BC Dall sheep, or a New Mexico application
The Alaska sheep story and why free range is less pure than most hunters believe

Guest: Brian Gilroy — CEO, Wildlife Partners. Exotic breeder and hunter. Boerne, TX. wildlifepartners.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:49

$50,000 sheep hunt in Alaska in the middle of nowhere, the most remote place on the planet, hunting a sheep that's never seen a human being before. But the truth is the outfitter knew the sheep, knew where the sheep was, flew me to the place where the sheep was, dropped me off in the place where the sheep was, sent me to go kill the sheep. Why is there a difference between that and hunting on a 15,000-acre property in Texas?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

All right, Brian Gilroy is on the podcast today. I'm very excited to have you on, Brian, and you are a unique guest to the podcast. So I'm just going to start, start out with the question because I've been intrigued watching you on other podcasts talk about what's going on in Texas in terms of this explosion of exotic, you know, the exotic animal uh potential opportunities down the road, just how that business has grown. So I'm just going to start with that, Brian. What is Texas going to look like in five, 10 years when you look at what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

You know, um it's it's an extraordinarily exciting time in our state. You know, obviously we're a state with very little regulation. And so it opens the door to a lot of development and a lot of change. I think that, you know, just looking backwards very briefly, prior to my entrance in the wildlife space here in Texas, I think the main story that was told about our industry was that this was canned hunting. Yeah. You know, if you ask if you asked somebody in Maine what was going on in Texas related to African animals, they would say, oh, well, it's canned hunting. They're putting an animal in a box and shooting it. And um, even globally, that was the story. And so part of my business uh from a marketing standpoint was that I I set out to change that. And so I've fortunately been the benefactor of lots of free press that we've been involved in, where we've been able to tell a different story. And um uh that that story has, I think, really changed the perception of our state uh from a wildlife standpoint, you know, with exotics. But if you're looking at where where we're going in the future, um, I think South Africa has a lot of concerns about where we're going just because the growth uh that we're experiencing from a population standpoint on the animals that we have.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

You mean competitively. So you you know you think you think Texas is on the radar of South Africa competitively.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

I mean, we're more than on the radar. Okay. I mean, it's you know, it's uh well let's if you if you look at if you look at the the basketball, if I was to make a comparison, sure. You know, the Spurs for the last uh several years have been terrible, but everybody knew they were a pretty good team in the past. And then suddenly out of nowhere they've shown up and they're contenders for the championship. And I I think that uh people in South Africa looked at Texas as it was a non-issue. Yeah, they have some animals, but it's not really a big deal because nobody's gonna want to replace Africa with Texas.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

And now suddenly, all out of nowhere, South Africans are trying to come to work here. They're trying to move here to get jobs. I get calls from every breeder in South Africa wanting to export animals to Texas. And so we're more than on the radar. It's it's a real risk for for that um for that that market um for a lot of different reasons. But to answer your question, where where are we going? We will be a global destination uh for hunters from all over the world that are looking for safe, convenient, predictable, comfortable uh access to world-class animals. And that that's gonna do nothing but but get bigger every year.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah. And so and and I think you have a unique perspective on it because you actually know, you know, where the money's being spent on, you know, what I guess what I would call like inventory of exotics and breeding stock, I guess, is probably like a better, you know, a better uh uh term. But let's I I want to go back to what you said early on in your answer, Brian, because this is going to be key to my audience. So my audience, I think the majority of them still feel the way that you describe Texas. Texas is about high fence, uh, you know, uh mostly canned hunting, sitting on feeders, uh, that, you know, a certain style of hunting. And then in the in the guy, a lot of guys that hunt the West, and I know you've hunted the West in Alaska, you know this. I'm not telling anything you don't know. A lot of guys they they they view that in a really negative light. You know what I mean? That's the that's the brand of Texas for a lot of a lot of my audience, it admittedly. And I I want to dig into what do you feel like branding-wise has changed? Is it is it just the the availability of animals, the cost of the animals? Are you seeing people who are getting into this business that are that are that are focusing on the experience too? Like, like I I don't know, Brian, like are there guys that are building ranches that are gonna be walk and stock places, like what I think of South South Africa. Is is there people trying to build that experience as they as they take advantage of this development in the exotic market?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, so let me I'm gonna take that on in a couple of pieces. That's fair, man. Africa is not one place. You know, it's it's a it's a very, very large place, but it's broken into lots of different components. Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Botswana, these are not the same as South Africa or parts of Namibia. So when when I'm speaking of South Africa, the correlation between South Africa and Texas today, it is almost identical. Most of the places that you're hunting in South Africa are in fact high fence places. Sure. They are game farms, um, they are properties where the animals that exist on those properties were purchased. Maybe they were bred there, but these are animals that are accustomed to being fed, they're accustomed to being looked after. Right. Um, there's a predictability in that hunt, which is it, which is the reason why you can go on a 10 or 12-day safari and shoot 25 animals, because this is a it's a it's a completely different experience. And so is Texas going to replace a hunt in Tanzania? And the answer is no.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

It's it's not going to. Is an elk hunt in Texas going to replace an elk hunt that exists in New Mexico or Arizona or Montana, Colorado? No, no, it's not going to replace that. There's there is no competitive um component to those products. They are completely and totally different. However, my experience is that um the same hunters that are going to Tanzania or going to Zimbabwe, they are also going to some of the places that we have here in Texas because they they can get here quickly, they can do it on a weekend, they can bring a customer or a friend. Um, it's an entertainment experience versus a cultural experience.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

And so, you know, personally, for me, I am probably more aligned with your audience. If I'm gonna hunt, you know, I want a backpack on my back and I want some Canotrek boots on my feet, sure, and I want to get dropped off where my cell phone doesn't work, and I want to eat mountain house and be miserable. And so I I um, you know, I'm I'm more aligned from a hunting perspective with the audience that you're describing. But when you're looking at at the product that Texas offers, it is beginning to offer both. Okay. We're starting to see both. So if you want to go audad hunting in Texas, there's hundreds of thousands of acres of free range land that you can go hunt audad on. I do it every year. It's a very, very difficult hunt. If you try to do it with a bow, good luck. You're gonna need some time. It's it's you got 200 eyeballs staring at you, and you're trying to get close to a big rim. There's nothing about it that's easy. Um, our market for elk, free range elk, number one, it doesn't require a tag because they are considered to be an exotic. So you can come hunt free-range elk here, yeah, and you can shoot a 400-inch bull and you can do it with a bow.

unknown 9:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Or you could do it with a rifle. But but these are these are wild animals, they're very big, and it doesn't require putting in a lottery that you may or may not draw for 10 years of your life. And so um, those those hunts exist. But the other thing that's happening is that there are landowners in this state today that have gone out and assembled 30,000, 50,000, 15,000, 20,000 acres of property that is not cross-fenced into pastures. And you can go out and hunt a Cape Buffalo on foot, or you can go out and you can try to hunt a kudu or sable or any of these other African animals, and even some European and Asian animals, and you can do that on foot if if you so choose to do that. Now, is it the same as a free range hunt in Tanzania? And the answer is no, it's not the same, it's a totally different experience, but it has value. And the same guys that are going to Tanzania, they're coming here and they're doing this as well. They're doing both. You know, so so is it is this going to replace hunting in any of those denues? The answer is no. Is it potentially going to put a severe um damper on the South African market? And the answer to that question is yes. If the South African market does not figure out how to implement a cultural experience that that is inviting, you know, not one that's filled with racism and and the you know, the the townships that are filled with trash all over the place that you drive by when you're in the country. If the South African model doesn't figure out how to integrate a cultural component to the environment, they are not they are not putting themselves a tier above Texas.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Because in Texas, you have five-story lodges, you have a lot of safety, you don't have a 13-hour plane ride, you're hunting behind a high fence, which is exactly the same thing you're doing in most of South Africa. You're hunting the same animals, and the quality of our animals, it is getting better and better and better every year.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

So the the main place that I would say um that is is is likely to be affected is South Africa. But I I don't see any risk to any of these other areas.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah, no, no, I I gotcha. And I uh and I'm sure you you know you interact with hunters in these worlds too. But what's interesting to me, Brian, over the last 10 years, amongst my clients who were free range, you know, to the soul, a lot of them are hunting like that. You could have a big, a big mule deer guy now, right? And he's he's trying to hunt Colorado, he's trying to hunt Wyoming, he's trying to go everywhere, and he might be a guy that's you know doing a lot of it himself and just spending a lot of time and resources that way, or he could be a guy that's doing a lot of pay-to-play stuff. A lot of those guys are starting to hunt Mexico, and and in Mexico, some of that stuff's high fence too. So even in like a species that used to be, you know, the the the brand around it was purely free range, you're starting to see guys do both types of hunting. I I think it has to do I think it has to do with a little bit of the experience, right? It's like it's no longer just going and shooting a big mule deer in a pin or another animal in a in a small spot. Guys can kind of can get they know it's different, but it's okay because it's still fun. They feel like it's got a challenge to it, and they can keep doing the other type of hunting. It's kind of to be honest with you, Brian, it's how I feel about Africa. I I went to Africa, it was super fun. I I like I enjoyed every minute of it, but two weeks after I got back, I went and guided bear hunts in the Frank Church. It wasn't like I compared the two. It's just different. You know what I mean? It's it's it's you know, it's not like I go up in the mountains, I'm like, oh, I gotta work two days to find clients of bear. This place sucks now because I was in Africa where I can just find another animal ten minutes away, right? It's a it's just they're different, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, let me let me I I I want to offer maybe a little different thought. Sure. That um, you know, might might highlight, at least from my perspective, some of the open-mindedness that you're discovering. Um draw drawing a tag is very difficult in a lot of these places. It it is not easy. And the waiting game gets frustrating. Um, sure, you can buy a landowner tag and you can go hunt with an outfitter, you know, by buying a tag or whatever. But look at the cost of what these tags have have gotten to. I mean, it's this is not a game that just anybody can step into and play. I mean, if you want to go sheep hunting now in British Columbia or Alaska or you know, really anywhere, it's it's fifty to seventy thousand dollars for a sheep. I mean, my buddy that guides in Alaska, doll sheep, I think he's sold out for a couple of years at $50,000 for a sheep. And so when you're looking at moose, you know, moose are $35,000 or bear are 35,000, $40,000. You know, these are very, very expensive hunts, and they are limited to a very narrow window of time.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

And logistically, some of them are more difficult than others to get to. But the point that I'm trying to make is that this this um the utopian idea of being a free-range hunter pursuing big game in North America has turned into a very, very difficult, extraordinarily expensive um process. It's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

And if you're a hunter and you want to hunt, and you want to hunt frequently, and you want to be able to do it every year, um, there's predictability in these other offerings. And and it is expensive. I'm not gonna tell you going to Mexico and hunting mule deer or hunting sheep, I know what those hunts cost, they're expensive. But it's predictable, and it's something that you can guarantee yourself some element of success. You might even be able to bring your wife with you towards an experience that you both get to have a good time with. But I really think that the access and the difficulty to be able to do these things and the cost of so I'll I'll give you one example of this. So my buddy and I put in on a party app uh in New Mexico a few years ago, right? And we we drew tags in 16D. And we went and hunted and we both killed bulls. These were mine was like 310, his was 330. Sure. If I could do that hunt every single year, I would do it every single year. Yeah, but I can't. We keep putting in for tags, we keep drawing a blank, we keep getting nothing. And if anything, out of our group of five guys, maybe one guy gets a tag, and then the rest of us can't participate. Right. And so so it's just there is an element of of how the dynamics of access have changed, and it's become so difficult and it's become so expensive that if you don't become more open-minded, you're gonna end up becoming a fisherman.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah, no, I think I think you nailed it, man. I mean, I agree with everything you just said, Brian, and I I think one thing that's uh a counterintuitive concept to a lot of people is free-range public land hunting, particularly for certain species, people don't realize that it it is becoming a an expensive hobby, regardless of what you it like people want to associate the North American uh game management model and public land hunting with cheap hunting and access to everybody, and it's becoming less of a truth. You know, I this is gonna be totally it's totally nerding out, Brian, but I looked at what like I put I put what I've uh spent applying for uh a bighorn sheep tag in Wyoming over my whole life. I mean, I'm 40 years old, I my dad was an outfitter, like I've been applying for these things for my whole life, since I was like the first year I could, right? If you look at just the application fees and you put some sort of like low-level compounding interest on that, I've already paid 25 grand, 30 grand, and I and I probably will never get a tag now because they changed the the non-resident resident quota. So I already paid I already paid 25 grand for a sheep hunt that I'll never do, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Look, I I I to be honest with you, I get annoyed by this, but Alaska has turned um prize tags into uh uh it's it's like a gimmick lottery. I get a deal every month of enter the raffle, you know, for this hunt or that hunt. They don't disclose how many of these tickets they sell. Um, you know, the state has turned this public resource into the equivalent of a lottery ticket.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

And um I I quit buying them because I spent I fell into the trap of thinking, oh, I'm gonna go do this and I'm gonna win. Sure. And I don't know, I spent tens of thousands of dollars doing this to get nothing. And and it's a great fundraiser for the state. But you know, it's it's it's kind of comical. But you know, I will I will say one other thing about the the idea of a do-it-yourself over-the-counter hunt. I don't know anybody doing this that enjoys it. It is a dangerous, miserable experience for the people that go do it. It's either extraordinarily low success rate, or I'll give you an example. A buddy of mine drew a tag, or he bought an over-the-counter tag, I don't remember which one, and I believe it was in Colorado. He went out and shot a bull uh with his bow, injured the bull, and was tracking the bull, came across some guys that had seen the bull. And the long and the short of it is that he the bull was alive, so he left it you know overnight to come back the next day. Came back the next day, and as he was going in looking for it, these guys were coming out with his bull. And and these are the kinds of stories that I've heard over and over again about trying to do an over-the-counter do-it-yourself hunt. There's so many people in the forest, there's this competitive environment. It's what what is free range about that? Like what is what is what is uh, you know, I want to go where I don't see anybody. Yeah, I don't want to have to be fighting for a spot in a valley with five other guys, none of which have any decorum, you know, when it comes to how to interact. So I do think that that plays a role in this, also, that it's like the idea of doing a do-it-yourself over-the-counter hunt, like go do a do-it-yourself hunt in Alaska. Good luck. Yeah, like good luck. You're coming home with nothing but mosquito bites, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah, I you know, I uh I I I would push back a little bit, Brian. There's things about me that like the quintessential elk hunt to me will always be like a horse mule pack in elk hunt, right? And and it but and even that kind of hunt is gonna have some of those negatives that you just mentioned nowadays, particularly if it's in a tag, you know, where you can get tag availability. And so I'll always have a passion for it, but I acknowledge what you're talking about. And to me, it's a value thing, right? It's people who are saying that you know everybody can hunt public land, everybody can do these western hunts on public land. They're dis and then they say, Oh, yeah, and Texas is all put pay to play and only rich guys can do it. It's like, well, you're you're not being honest about what the like what the package is.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

You know what I mean? But I think we're talking about two different things, okay? Okay. So the the idea of a Pac M horse hunt, that that is not something that Brian Gilroy and Texas. Can go do. So the only way I get that is I pay to play.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

It's the only way. You, as a guy who's done this your whole life and you're equipped to do that, and you you've built the mechanism to be able to make that happen. I would I would love the ability to go do that. But again, what does it cost? Right. It's expensive. There's and if and I've already learned, if I don't hire an outfitter when I go hunt in the West or Alaska, I'm not going to come home with anything, most likely. I mean, I maybe I'll kill a cow elk or you know, a spike bull, but the likelihood of having much success without hiring a professional is very, very low. Yeah. And so it's it comes back to there is this underlying cost associated with participating in the free range middle of nowhere hunt um that that makes the bar to entry much higher um than just a buy over-the-counter tag. And so the result of the result of that cost is if you know, I'm gonna give one example and then I'll shut up on this. I went and hunted a uh a musk a muskox on Nunavak Island. Okay. I drew the tag, right? Super happy, lucky, everything's great. Yeah, fifteen thousand dollars later, I I'm I've got my muskox.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

You know, so how many guys out there can go throw 15 grand at a muskox that's an over-the-counter tag, you know, I tag I drive.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, that yeah, that and that's the reality of that public available system or or whatever, whatever we're talking. It's it's not it's not it's not just the tag price. You you had to do that. I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

But the the the what I'm trying to convey is the open-mindedness that I think that's evolving from this this utopian idea of the free range hunt um compared to that of a more structured high fence environment. The monetary element of it is putting these things on par.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

When when when they are the same cost, um and the probability of success is vastly different, um, it creates open-mindedness. You know, we as humans like convenience. Some of us like misery, but even with misery, I like convenience. You know what I mean? It's like I'm not going into the woods with no supplies saying, let's just meat eater it and let's eat on a stick, you know. It's it's I'm bringing stuff with me to try to be as comfortable as possible. So our nature is to look for that. And I think as as we've seen the hunting world evolve, these products are becoming there's some parity between them from a from a cost structure standpoint. And I think that plays a role into the open-mindedness.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

All right, guys, and some of my content, you're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. It should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's CliffG, and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. No, no, absolutely, Brian. I and I think this is a a good chance for us to transition into a little bit of your background and what you do. And within that, I'll I'll throw this out because it comes down to it. Well, it it goes to one of my thoughts. You mentioned Cape Buffalo, uh Ke Kudu in Texas. Uh it I I just found this out like recently. I didn't even know those existed in Texas. I think the majority of my audience doesn't know that those exist in Texas. And if they do, I shouldn't say it like I knew they were there, but I thought they were, you know, they were $150,000 hunts, like a novelty hunt that was just available to some Uber wealthy oil and gas guy or something like that, right? Um I is that changing? Is that changing? And then uh like is it is a kudu hunt gonna be re like more reasonable in the future? Is a Cape Buffalo hunt gonna be more reasonable in the future? And you could extend that to whatever other exotic animals you see thriving there. And then within that, sorry about these long questions, man, but within that, do you if you don't mind kind of describing what you do within the business in in Texas?

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah. So um in 2000 let's just say 15, there were probably not any Buffalo, K Buffalo, in private hands. They were all in zoos. Okay, and that that's the origin of all of these animals that exist here, is they originated from zoos. Zoos having surplus animals and shipping them to private ranches started in the 1920s and it really accelerated in the 50s and 60s. And so um I acquired um a large group of Cape Buffalo from a zoo. It was 31 head, is what I started with. And that was the largest group known in North America at the time. Um, there was there was a group actually in far west Texas, but it was kind of off the radar. Not a lot of people knew about it. But today, right now, I'm gonna say there's probably somewhere between two and three hundred Cape Buffalo that exist on private ranches in Texas. Um, my company personally has close to a hundred of those.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So um the market in Cape Buffalo, the females are way more expensive than the males. Females are three, 375 to 450 uh roughly. And the bulls, you can buy young bulls for about 20 grand. And there is a 50-inch Cape Buffalo bull in Texas right now. My breeding bull is 44 inches. There's several 45, 46, 47-inch bulls around. So you could hunt um kind of an average Cape Buffalo bull. Uh, my guess is probably somewhere around 50 grand today. It's a very limited availability because it's really a breeder's market right now. Yep. Kudu, um, there's thousands of kudu in Texas, probably 5,000. Okay. And at one time it died last year. I owned a 71-inch kudu bull. So we have very, very big kudu in this state. Sure. Um we have multiple bulls that are in the mid-60s. Um, so you're not gonna be able to hunt one of those bulls today, right? Um, they're way, they're worth way more as a breeder than they are as a huntable animal. You know, a 62 or 63-inch kudu bull is worth $150 to $200,000 as a breeder. So you can go hunt you know, a 50-inch bull for probably 25 grand, something like that. But it's as with anything, supply and demand dictates pricing. And as our populations grow and we get better and better at breeding, there's going to be more availability of bulls for hunting. Today, there is no availability. Every large bull that's available for hunting is getting hunted. Um, and it's driving the price up, and it's just about population. And going back to the comparison to South Africa, if you look at 2018, there was a massive oversupply of animals in South Africa, which caused a significant price drop in the breeder's market. Um, you could go hunt a kudu bull for probably 1,500 or 2,000 bucks. When COVID hit and everybody went out and started harvesting all these animals because they didn't want to feed them, they decimated the population of lots of the animals that they had all over South Africa. So today a kudu hunt is much more expensive than it was in 2018, 2019-ish. I don't know what they are now, 3,500 to 5,000 bucks. Sure. And depending upon how big they are. So, you know, it's the the answer to the question is that as our populations increase over time, um, and there becomes a surplus of large bulls, yes, pricing for these hunts is going to go down. Um and there will be variations in price. If you're hunting at a five-star ranch that has 30,000 acres, it's a real experience. There's a runway that you can fly your private jet in. Um, that's gonna be much more expensive than going and shooting a 55-inch bull off of 500 acres where there's no lodging. So there's gonna be a mixture of all of these um within the marketplace. And so the pricing of the hunt is gonna be dictated more about the amenities that are coming with it versus just the animal that you're that you're hunting.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, no, I got you. But right now within the industry and what you're seeing, Brian, and I guess you you personally too, there are people breeding or they're there it's in a mode of increasing the breeding stock. Is that kind of what you see across most of these exotic animals? There's nobody because in my mind I'm thinking, you know, I I grew up within a cattle ranching family, right? So there's like the same, there's like the herd inventory that everybody kind of watches a little bit, you know, and it's like the same, it it takes a few years, right? It takes a few years, okay. Everybody's everybody's keeping more heifers than they used to. And so now the herd's building up, like what's that going to do for the market in the future or whatever. So uh maybe I'm vaguely familiar from from that world. Is that kind of how the exotic world is right now? Everybody's building up breeding stock for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I I think it's it's probably a little bit more fragmented than than being as streamlined as what you're describing. Okay. So you you you have um people that are strictly in the hunting business. You have people that are strictly in the breeding business, and then you have people that are in the breeding and the hunting business both.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

But then there's this other group of people that are chasing tax deductions, and this is something that they're doing because they just love doing it, and they don't really care about the revenue model. Okay. Okay, and that's probably um one of the biggest sectors in the marketplace. So my company is an example. We're the largest breeder in North America. Um, we do about 50 million a year in sales.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Um, I have 12,000 acres. All we do is breed. We don't sell any hunts whatsoever. And I'm not producing trophy animals for hunting. That isn't what my marketplace is. My marketplace, I am producing yearling animals that are your run-of-the-mill commercial cow. I'm producing an impala is an impala is an impala. Yep. A kudu is a kudu is a kudu. I do have a component of my business that is high-end elite genetics.

unknown 34:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

That is part of my business. But the bulk of my company is we are breeding animals, creating massive amounts of inventory, and we are selling a yearling. We're selling an animal that's 12 to 18 months old, and we're selling that animal to other breeders that are growing those animals out, and then they are breeding those animals as a mechanism for generating tax deductions on their properties, um, and and basically creating a tax shelter. I got that that's my model. So I have a group of customers that they are strictly focused on elite genetics. That's all they do. Yep. And and they will spend unlimited amounts of money in order to get the best of the best genetics, and that's all they're focused on. And they're not selling animals with the intent of hunting them. That's not what they're doing. They're breeding the best of the best stock to sell to other breeders that want to produce those animals. Will that evolve and eventually produce really large huntable animals? And the answer is yes, it will. But right now, the hunting stock is coming from the commercial cattle side of the marketplace. You know, the impala is an impala. You know, I would say the average kudu killed in this state is 48 to 50 inches, which is not much different than South Africa, to be honest with you. But um we we are in a significant growth mode where everyone is kind of altering their behavior to adjust to what's going on. Like the large commercial hunting ranches, they can no longer do put and take hunting and make any money.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

They they can't go by Brian.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Do you mind just do you mind describing put and take? I think some of the audience audience won't won't won't know, just know the definition.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah, put put and take means I put it here on Friday and I took it out on Sunday. Yeah. So put and take means I bought this animal because I have a hunter coming in. I do not want to hold this animal in inventory and I'm I'm gonna get rid of it in just a couple of days. Yeah. Now the hunter almost never knows that that's what's going on, but that model is rapidly going away. It probably is very rare for it to even exist today because there's no money in it.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

If if let's just say as an example, if I have a hunter coming in and the hunter wants to hunt a kudu and I don't have a kudu, well, the trophy price for a kudu is about 25 grand. So if I go out and I try to buy that kudu, it's gonna cost me $20,000 to $22,000 to buy it.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, I got you. Because the breeding market wants it.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

All components anybody wants it.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Anybody wants it? Yeah, everybody, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

You know, and and so the deal is there's no money in put and take hunting. It there isn't any money. So what's happening is all of the large commercial ranches that sell hunts, they are buying both yearling males and they're turning them out in large pastures and they're growing them out in large pastures, or they're buying breedstock and they're breeding their own animals and they're growing them out that way because there's no margin. They they do not have the ability to make money buying a mature animal, turning it out on a ranch and shooting it. There's no upside. So they have been forced by the market to produce huntable inventory by by breeding or by growing it out. So, in most cases, when someone is going on to one of these commercial ranches, they are not hunting an animal that was just released last week. They are, in fact, hunting an animal that was either born on that ranch or was acquired when the animal was fairly young, and it's grown up there.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah. Dude, this stuff is fan fascinating to me, Brian. And as I dig deeper into it, what you're talking about is not limited to Texas, right? I know a lot of South Africa's put and take model, um, and there's like different variations of it. I actually know that a lot of the stuff that's going on in Mexico is the same, is a similar. It's like there's variations of it, right? Because and I have mixed feelings about it. Of course, to me, it's odd to turn an animal out on one side of the ranch and it gets killed before it sees the other side of the 5,000 acre high fence. To me, that's that's odd. It's to me, it's odd, right? Like I wouldn't want, I wouldn't want to shoot an animal that way, and I'd feel I'd feel kind of shitty if I went on a hunt and they didn't tell me that was going on, right? Like that's kind of the way my thought processes on it. But there's another thing that I that I'm that I've talked to a lot of guys that's going on is a lot of these populations, like bighorns in Mexico, some of the mule deer stuff, they're the the explosion and opportunity on big ranches, and even to some extent in you know, maybe some free range type of stuff too, it's from the same model. It's from turnouts, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Look, uh all you have to do is follow the dollar.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I mean, this is about money. Where there's where there's an opportunity for people to make money, they're going to capitalize on it. Whether it's hunting um or or whatever else, if if there's an opportunity to build a business um where you can make money, people are going to take advantage of that. And there's this ethical component where people determine morality based upon their personal preferences. I'm look, I'm in the cattle business also. Okay. I raise Scottish Highlands and the the I call them the the clan of cattle carens. There's this group of women in this marketplace that are vicious. I mean vicious. They just they are adamantly opposed to bottle raising a calf. Like this is some you've defied God by doing that. Like what you did is so immoral, it's you're you're the scourge of the earth because you put a cow on a bottle, and I ask them the question, well, how did your kids grow up? Right. Did you give your kids a bottle? And they don't want to have that discussion. And the point that I'm making is that you know, when you're looking at at hunting, we have a way of beating each other up, and it's been going on for decades now, where this there's this morality or there's this ethical component. Personally, I don't want to be in put and take hunting, I don't want any part of that, I don't want to have anything to do with it, but I can say I don't want to have anything to do with it because I did it.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I I I actually did it, I know what it's like, and so I decided for myself I don't want to do that. That doesn't mean that I'm here to condemn anybody else and what they do, but if you look at Colorado, I mean I have a buddy that went to Colorado and was sending us all these pictures and was bragging about, you know, this hunt. And I'm like, dude, how far away is the fence? And and and you know, you can hunt big elk in Colorado, you can go to Nebraska and you can hunt mountain goat and you can hunt doll sheep and you can hunt bighorn in Mexico. Um you can hunt mule deer behind a fence. I mean, the all of these products exist. I'm not here to say whether one is bad or one is good. Um they exist because of money. That's that's why they exist.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

No, no, I you know, yeah, no, I I I I totally get it. Now it now in that uh in that construct, if I so what's not going on in Texas, because this is maybe I was naive on this, Brian, is if I go down and buy a 10,000 acre ranch and I just want to turn it into some amazing place to hunt, maybe sell hunts, maybe just have it personally, maybe I've got, maybe I want to, maybe I've got like a bunch of personal income that I need to block from taxation or whatever, and and we could you could describe that real briefly. But I just come to you and I say, Brian, I want to buy, I want to have five species on my ranch that just self you know re you know, reproduce, and then you know, I and then in five, ten years I've got tons of stuff to hunt. Is that a thing? Or for some reason I thought that was a thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

I would I would say to a degree it's a thing, but it's probably a bit more broad. I don't know that someone is just limiting it to a few species. Personally, for me, I hunted elk in West Texas last year by Alpine, and the place that I hunted, it's it's in the mountains, it's just beautiful. And the whole time I was there, all I could think was, I would love to buy 50,000 acres out here, put a world-class lodge in, sure, and do nothing but grow elk. And and I think you could build an incredible business doing that. I think the demand for it is there. Yeah, but is there anybody doing that today? There's nobody doing that today that I know of. Um, but uh it's gonna happen. I mean, somebody's gonna do it at some point. Yeah, I mean, I don't know of anybody that's just kind of narrowed it down to a handful of species. Uh, every big ranch I know that's in the hunting world, they they have 20 plus, 20, 20, 20 plus species, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

I I guess the other part of that, Brian, is how much I'm just trying to dig into like what the model actually looks like. How how much of ranches that are established do they have self sustaining populations, or is there always an in and out flow?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah. So Triple Seven is uh a very famous hunting ranch here in Texas. Okay. Um it is self sustaining. They don't they don't buy anything, they produce everything. That they hunt. Um, and I would say that the the bigger commercial ranches, um that they they've all gotten to that point or the very they're very close to it. Um and it and it again, it goes back to there's no money in buying um there's no money in the city.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Being out in the market buying, yeah, yeah. I there's no money in it.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

You if you're not growing out the animals that you're hunting, you're not you're just simply not making any money. Yeah, but these are I'm sorry, go ahead, Brian. So going back to your question about doing this as an individual and to put some perspective, let's just say I'm a guy, um, I have a big tech company, I live in California, I'm paying a ridiculous amount of money in tax, but I'm a member of Safari Club International, I love to hunt, and I love West Texas. So I could go out there and I could buy a hundred thousand acres. By buying that hundred thousand acres, if I'm gonna build a business on that as a breeder or as a hunting model, whatever, I can write off all the infrastructure that's there. So all of the fences, all the barns, all the roads, all the water lines, right out of the gates, just for buying the land, I get to write off all the infrastructure because I have created a bona fide for-profit business. Now I go buy all my seed stock from a breeding perspective, and I get to write all of that off 100%.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

All the improvements that I make to build a world-class facility and to do all these things, I get to write off a large portion of all of that. So just as the result of starting this thing off, I'm gonna get to take advantage of a massive amount of depreciation. But but then I've got this product, I've got this really cool thing where I could have theoretically, I could have people come in and hunt elk or um other animals, Ibex, you know, mark horn Ibex would do unbelievable out there. And I can create this product that would allow me to sell as many hunts as I could accommodate.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

The market is there. In other words, if I had 150 animals available for hunts, I could sell 150 of them. Yeah, the demand for the product is already there today. So so there is a massive financial motivation for someone to step into the marketplace and do these things because of all the deductibility that you get. It allows you to buy underlying real estate at a discounted value versus I'm just gonna buy it and hold it, and I'm not gonna do anything with it.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Right. And so I I I, you know, obviously this is not like a financial planning or financial podcast, but I want to dig into this a little bit because I think it's interesting to me, and I think it'd be interesting to the audience. A lot of people would listen, or they're they're gonna listen to that, Brian, and they're gonna say, okay, yeah, but there's a I can I can do a lot of different operating businesses uh and I'm still gonna get the 100% depreciation. But to me, it is is this a little bit of an anomaly in the sense that, yeah, you can I'm gonna be able to 100% depreciate this kudu cow that I bought, right, and put on my place, but in a sense, she doesn't yeah, it's accelerated depreciation, but she doesn't actually depreciate in real life because she's gonna have a calf and I'm gonna I'm actually building up an asset. Like most things when you depreciate him for tax reasons, even if this accelerated depreciation or 100% depreciation this year, the reality is they do depreciate, right? So so because like eventually they're not worth anything.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

If I buy a try, if I buy a tractor, my tractor is just gonna sit there and do absolutely nothing but depreciate. Right. Unless I hire someone to get on it, and then I go out and I sell work to generate revenue as the result of doing the work. So there's this whole other component to taking advantage of buying a tractor. I mean, it's the tractor doesn't do anything for me, but if I buy a kudu, all I have to do is keep her alive, and the revenue is gonna come from her having a baby, and this is repetitive. It happens again and again. And you're right, she does not go down in value as the result of buying her. Right. And I don't have to get anybody to write her, I don't have to play music for her to get her to breathe. And I don't have to buy her roses, she's naturally gonna do that for me. Um but you know, when you when you look at when you when you look at let's just say this concept of I can buy you know a piece of land and operate a business. If I'm gonna go buy a hundred thousand acres in the mountains in West Texas, what kind of business am I gonna operate on that?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

I mean, I have a couple of options. I I can have cows or I can have sheep and goats, and cows and sheep and goats require a massive amount of maintenance. And for a legacy ranching family, that may sound great. Yeah, although I can tell you a lot of these legacy ranching families have gotten into African coast stock. There's way more money in it, and and so it's also cool and it's fun and it's different. And so if I want to buy underlying real estate as an investment, I'm either gonna get no deductions for doing it, or I'm gonna have an underlying business that allows me to get all the deductions. I have to pick what business I want. What I'm seeing as a trend is that people are picking exotic wildlife as the business of choice over sheep and goats or a lot of these other things that are out there as options. Yeah, so um there is a major financial component to this, and I don't think that we've even seen the beginning of the opportunity that's available um to develop. I don't even think we've seen the the we're so new into this that it's pr it's hard to predict where it's gonna be in 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Yeah. So I have I've got a couple tag-along questions. And dude, I could talk to you about the financial component about it for for hours because I find it, I find it interesting and intriguing, and in some ways very unique to the the specific situation. But the I I well, one question I'm sure my audience has, Brian, is if I'm a guy that I there's no way I'm gonna be able to spend 25 grand or the future equivalent of 25 grand for a kudu hunt or whatever, should I should this still be on my radar? Like in am I gonna be a benefactor if I'm a guy who lives in Ohio? I like to hunt whitetail a little bit. Maybe I go to Colorado hunt elk elk every four or five years, but I've never really hunted Texas because I thought it was just like I had to sit in a blind or whatever and I'm in a and kill a whitetail or something like that. Is should it be on a guy's radar that, hey, in five, six years, are are there gonna be hunts? Like, is this gonna trickle down where hey there I can go hunt Impala for two, three thousand bucks? Is that you think that's a reality, or or am I thinking about the wrong way?

SPEAKER_00 52:18

You know, look, uh it's it's it's hard for me to admit this, and it's hard for me to even say it. But hunting and fishing, um, while the perception is is that you know, this this is the the blue-collar sport, this is the thing that anybody can go do. That's just simply not true. Yeah, it's it's it's so expensive to be involved in in hunting and fishing in the outdoors, no matter what. It doesn't matter what area that you're in doing it. If you're hunting at the pond, if you're if you're fishing at the pond on your grandpa's property, you still have to go buy all this equipment to be able to do it. And and and for a guy that's making forty or fifty thousand dollars a year to go spend a thousand dollars on equipment, and a thousand dollars doesn't get you very far. Um, and you have to you have to have a hunting and for you have to have a fishing license in the state uh that you live in to go do it on your grandpa's pond. I mean, it's just look, this is an expensive hobby, any way you look at it. Is there going to be um a reduction in the overall cost of hunting African hove stock over time? And the answer is yes. Yeah, as time goes by and the populations expand, there will be more availability, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna be available to everybody. Yep, it's just not.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah, no, I appreciate the honest answer, guys. Biltong, okay? I have been obsessed with this stuff for three or four years. Ever since I got on a keto, carnivore, paleo-esque type of diet, I've had a hard time finding healthy snacks. Biltong is a great option, particularly the slabs that have this fat on the side. That's where your energy is if you're a fat burner like me. Super simple ingredients in this, guys. Literally, one, two, three, four, five ingredients. Pair that to your gas station jerky, a great snack in the backcountry or just day to day. Biltong Depot is a huge supporter of my content. Go to their website, biltongdepot.com. Use my code CliffGray, C-L-I-F-F-G-R-A-Y, at checkout for 10% off. And to support this content. Thanks, guys. You know, I mean that there's there's a part of me, I mean, you can probably sense this, Brian. There's a part of me that wants to think that, hey, this explosion is going to actually increase availability for hunts to people who may not be able to, you know, that maybe can't afford them or whatever, and and maybe that is the case on the margin, but I appreciate your answer. It's like, look, it's just expensive. Uh yeah, I mean it's expensive to raise the stuff too.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Let's just let's you you have a mountain goat behind you, right? Yeah, let's just talk about a mountain goat, okay? These are not being farmed as a general rule. I mean, there's a couple of places that they are, but these are not being farmed, these are wild animals. Is it realistic for a guy that makes sixty thousand dollars a year and his wife is a school teacher making forty-five or fifty thousand dollars a year? Is it realistic that he will have the opportunity to go harvest a mountain goat? Yeah, is that a real is that realistic?

SPEAKER_01 55:41

No, I mean I mean, no, I mean, even with this example you're looking at here, so I drew that as a non-resident because I had moved from Colorado. So the tag was $2,300. Where I killed it was somewhere I had guided 20 plus mountain goat hunts. But realistically, if that wasn't the case, I would have had to pay six six or seven thousand bucks to a guide. It would have been unreasonable. So I would have been 10 grand in to kill it.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Yeah, so it's not the the farming model, you know, the commercial farming breeding model is not what's creating an environment where these products are out of reach to your everyday ordinary guy. Yeah, you know. Um it is just this is an expensive endeavor, no matter how you look at it. And um, would I prefer that every kid in America get the opportunity to go and participate in these types of things? And the answer is yes, I would prefer that. I would prefer for every kid in America to be outside, you know, chasing squirrels, you know, shooting a pellet gun, doing dumb stuff like I did as a kid. You know, it's uh yes, I would prefer that. But but the reality is is that all of this is expensive, and and the guys that are criticizing um the guy that's doing something else.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

I mean it's not being realistic about their I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Look, they're they're still spending an enormous amount of money to go do what they're doing. Like oh yeah, it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

It's it's um it's kind of a waste of time. It's really a waste of everybody's time and effort to like dwell on the case.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Look, I mean, look, I I I will tell you point blank, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There is no comparison to going and and climbing a mountain and killing a mountain goat in the middle of nowhere, like to going and shooting a white-tailed deer out of a deer blind. There's no comparison between these two things, they're not the same. But what I can tell you is that if I don't pay for the guide, if I don't pay for the plane, if I don't pay for good gear, if I don't if I don't pay for all the things associated to go do that, I'm just going camping.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

And and so the mountain goat hunt is probably more expensive than the whitetail.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Oh, yeah. By the time it's all said and done. Yeah, it's just spread out, spread out a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

So it's like I'm I'm paying for this experience. I'm paying because someone else did all the legwork for me before I got there, and I'm showing up in my camo from head to toe while my guide is wearing all red and torn-up, you know, pants. You know, it's just it's it's uh I I just I hate this this well, what I do is better than what you do, or what I do is more ethical than what you do, or whatever. Like at the end of the day, this entire venue, all of it, from from top to bottom, when you're talking about hunting, there is a commercial economic model that drives all of it.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

And what your pocketbook is, that defines what you do.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

I'd love to say it's your morality, but it is your pocketbook.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

It and isn't it, I find it interesting, not to dwell on the subject, Brian, but I find it interesting that people who are who are pigeonholed into only doing the public land thing, they think that it's not an economic-driven system still. It is. I mean, the state still has to manage the game. They still I I I think it's a weird mental block or something that people have.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

When was the last time they put in for tags in New Mexico? Yeah. No, it was to put in for everything in New Mexico is like six or seven thousand bucks just to put in for the draw.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

I mean, if you're putting in for Gemsbach, Ibex, you know, and everything else, I think it's six or seven thousand dollars for the application.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then any, and then they refund you, but a bunch of it stays if you didn't. Yeah, it's like, I mean, everything's just it's just expensive. Like the whole thing is I mean, you nailed it, man. Um, one question I have, I think I know the answer, but I want to hear it from you, Brian. Um, why the emphasis on exotics? Why aren't guys developing elk? Why aren't guys developing whitetail? Well, I mean, why aren't guys uh going into desert bighorns or uh mule deer? What what's the with the hang up there?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Man, the the number one word is disease.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

So it is all about disease. So um any cervid um is subject to some element of regulation. You know, things like phallow and axis and some of these other things that are not susceptible to CWD, um, they're kind of off the radar, but they're still concerned. But if you're breeding whitetail deer or elk or mule deer, you're dealing with CWD. And I think there's a huge misconception um within the breeding world of those animals that parks and wildlife is after whoever it is that's doing the breeding. You know, this is a trickle down. You know, the CDC at the very top has said CWD is potentially zoonotic. And because it's potentially zoonotic, the USDA is funded by the federal government to do all these things related to both monitoring and testing and um trying to identify whether or not America's um population is at risk as the result of CWD. And that funding trickles itself down to places like Animal Health Commission. Okay. And then Animal Health Commission then partners with Texas Parks and Wildlife to go do trials and studies and monitoring and things like that. So this is a federal issue. It's a federal issue that disease potentially affects humans. And so you have all this regulatory stuff that trickles down into the private sector, and that that affects people's willingness to get involved in these markets. When you're looking at sheep, wild sheep are looking for a place to die.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

And when you start raising wild sheep on property where you've previously had domestic animals, you run into these disease issues, which we're dealing with that with oddad in Texas right now, affecting bighorn sheep. And and so there's this concern that there's a habitat decline and there's a decline in the population of bighhorns because of disease carried by by oddad. So these are animals that are just they are subject to lots of regulation, and they are just tricky. They're tricky to deal with when it comes to breeding them. But elk, there are some very, very big elk being bred here in Texas. But what I will say is is there is some regulatory component to it. It's not as bad as white-tailed deer, but red deer are turning into a huge, huge market in this. So um there are some very big red deer being produced, but you know, it there are people doing these things. Um, I know people breeding mule deer. Um I am personally allergic to regulation.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

Yeah, well, no, and yeah, and that's what I figured the primary thing was it's like why why get into the species that you have to deal with heavy regulation, particularly if they're already kind of a less robust species to deal with, you know, to raise. So I understand that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Well, and look, if if you look at white-tailed deer, there's only one reason to breed white-tailed deer, and it's to sell white-tailed deer hunts.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

This is not an animal that's endangered, this is not an animal that is in any kind of a danger of having a decimation of its population. In fact, they're overpopulated. We have too many of them. So there's there's no, in my mind, there's no conservation component to breeding whitetailed deer. Yeah. Um, it's purely economic. And uh there, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but but it's it is purely economic. It is what it is, it is not conservation.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Um, do I think that there is a reason from a conservation standpoint to breed elk? Um, yeah, probably. There's some areas that probably could use some help with their populations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Um with sheep, I mean, this is clearly I would love for there to be more sheep. I mean, right. I would love that. So, but I I haven't found like I don't in Texas, it's it's not legal to breed uh Texas bighorn sheep. You you're not allowed to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Yeah, you can't you can't have the native, you can't, if them is a native species, you can't have what why not to go down this rabbit hole, but why would it be okay to have native white or the native species of whitetail that you're breeding, but you can't breed bighorns? Is there a justification for that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

Yeah, because in Texas they created uh what was re what is referred to as a scientific breeder's permit. Ah, okay. This this was a uh a designation that was created that allows uh private uh citizens to possess, not own, but to possess white-tailed deer and to breed them and to benefit financially from doing so. But they don't own any of those animals, they're all owned by the state of Texas.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Okay. And that same program is not there that has not been that's not that doesn't exist for bighhorns.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

It does not exist for bighorn, no. No, it does not. No, yeah, and um I I don't know a lot about the mule deer breeding. I do know there's some mule deer breeding, but I don't know exactly the legality around it. Um, I assume it's somewhat similar to whitetailed deer, but you know, they just don't thrive when they're bred in pens. People have not done a great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

They're just hard, hard, harder to raise. I've heard that from several people, including some friends that raise a lot of elk, that mule deer are just just tricky.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

Um, I think I'll go ahead and I think I just I think one of the if there's a message that I would like to get across in this subject is that when when we as hunters bring um morality and ethics into the discussion, um we're turning this thing that we all love and that we're all advocating for into um the same dynamic as debating about abortion or these other moral. Components that we find that divide our country.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

And I just wish that that we as hunters could figure out a way to say our entire hobby is driven by economics. And everyone views how to make money a little bit differently. We're not all on the same page, and we're not ever all going to be on the same page. Right. We're never going to eliminate components of the hunting world that maybe somebody views as unethical. We're never going to get rid of that. It's never going to happen. So, so what I would love for our community to do is to stop and look around and realize that we are a very, very small minority in this country. Like very small. Hunters in this country are a very small minority. There is a very large majority that does not like the fact that we hunt. They don't like the fact that we shoot animals, whether they're on a mountain free ranging or whether or not they're in a high fence. They don't like any component of it. And they are very good at raising money, and they're very good at lobbying politicians, and they're very good at getting legislation passed. And I just would love for the hunting world to say we're going to stop bickering and beating one another up, and we're going to try to consolidate what we're doing to protect our right to be able to hunt.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Because this backbiting and and finger pointing, and my my way is better than your way, it's it's just it's not doing anything great for us as a community. I love free range hunting, I love mountain hunting, but I'm a breeder in Texas. Sure. Yeah, no, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

I get it. But but you know what's interesting about it to me, Brian, is like some of this stuff defies our history of hunting in the U.S. and yet we've created these segments that adamantly dislike each other. And it's and it's weird because some of it's so artificial. I mean, a lot of people will will listen to this, Brian, and they just it's not even that it's not the high fence, it's none of that, it's that they just hate the idea, the idea of game breeding. I mean, I have friends that hate that idea. Like they they think that that should not exist, but it's wild to me because it you're blocking out the history that like a lot of the sp like so many of the animals in the West, like very few people know that a lot of the like the elk transplants that make up the Colorado population of elk right now, they were in a high fence in Yellowstone. They trapped them and they kept them in basically a feedlot environment and repopulated these states. And so it's like, well, how how could you hate that as an idea when it's a core component of like all like all the hunting that you like? So I think it's weird because it's kind of artificial hatred in a way. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Do you know where the the bighorn sheep in Texas came from?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Uh I don't know, but I I I know enough about it and can smell it on it enough to know that somebody had to have raced them.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

They came from Nevada. Okay. These are these are Nelsoni big bighorn. So there there was a belief that maybe there was a few ewes left. Okay. But but the bighorn that exist in the state of Texas today are not native to Texas. Okay. So they were they are considered to be native animals, but they were brought here from uh Nevada. They they are not they are not native Texas animals, but they are designated as native. Yeah. Um, because theoretically there were maybe some yews left that were bred. But look, conservation comes in a lot of different forms, but but all conservation takes money. All of it. Every single component of conservation requires money. And whether it's protection of habitat or whether it's breeding or whether it's genetic diversity or whatever, all forms of conservation require some form of human intervention and money. And I and look, I know just from experience of arguing with people that there are there are people that are never going to change their mind. Sure. We should never ever breed any of these animals behind a fence. We should never do any. I I get it. It's fine. I don't take any of it personal. You know, but but look at the at the end of the day, um you know, when you try to regulate morality, um you can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

It's just not possible. And it's because we all have a little bit different view on the world, and we all have a very different expectation about what is and isn't okay. Um and I I just I'm just glad that the opportunities um exist. That that I have the opportunity to go hunt a free-range animal in the middle of nowhere, and that I have the opportunity to go harvest a Neel guy behind a high fence for the meat. I'm glad that I have the opportunity to do both.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

Um, and I'm glad that my kids have had the opportunity to do both. I got here, I want to ask you a question. So, and I'd like your thoughts on this. Of course. So I hunted in uh in Alaska, and I was hunting a sheep, and uh I shot the sheep, right? And when I shot the sheep, there was a hole in the back of the horn, and the front of it was blown out. Okay. All right. So I'm hunting in the middle of nowhere, um 80 miles from McGrath in the Alaska in the Revelation range, and you know, there's no one around. I got dropped off by a super cub. You know, here I am in the middle of nowhere, thinking my feet are the first feet that have ever touched this ground, right? And then I shoot this sheep and it's got a bullet hole in its horn.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:07

So what would you think if if that happened to you? Like, would it tarnish your experience? Would it make you view it differently? Does it does it take away from the fact that you know I'm having this purest experience? Or is it just a function of the fact that there's a lot of people going out there and hunting and the guy before me made a bad shot?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

Like, yeah, no, I mean, uh, my thought on it, Brian, is I I can tell you a dozen similar experiences where I thought I was so remote, I thought it was the first person there, and I realized that no, like somebody was here recently, or like these animals are so heavily and I you see it a lot on public land stuff, particularly in like the continuous states here and the Colorado and stuff, because these animals are under continuous pressure. Like people don't realize it's continuous pressure. So I don't for me, I don't think it tarnishes uh it tarnishes it. It gives me a reality check. That's what I would say. I I get that reality check a lot. Um to make to extend it, you know what's I I think is actually kind of fun that I've run into a few times is I'm I'm a little bit of an artifact nerd, you know, like an arrowhead nerd.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

Oh no, you're in trouble. Many times. Hang on a minute. You see that coffee table? You see that coffee table? Yeah, those are 3,000-year-old shoes from the lamp.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Way cool, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

I'll send you some pictures.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

No, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:43

Um total junkie.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

Oh, okay. So you got that bug too. I I have where I was going with it, Brian, is while hunting, many times I've found an arrowhead in a spot that was a good spot to see, uh, a good spot to camp, that sort of thing. And that component is is like another level of like like checking my mind. Like I'm in the exact spot that somebody was a thousand years ago, you know what I you know, um, and I found his arrowhead. And then I I even I even like daydream about this sometimes. I think to myself, like, you know, the guy who left this arrowhead here, whatever, 600 years ago or whatever it was, he probably was sitting here and found another arrowhead that was built a little bit different from a guy 500 years before him, and he probably thought it was cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Yeah, I'm gonna show you something real quick. Let's see if it'll show up on the camera here.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:37

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:39

So my girlfriend and I last week uh we went uh hiking into three different rock shelters in the lower Pecos Canyon lands. Okay, and that those paintings are probably three to five thousand years old.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

And we went into we went into one shelter that we know it's been dated to 7,000 years. So I look, I'm right there with you. Let me I want to tell you the rest of the story on that sheep. Yeah. So I'm not gonna name the TV show, but uh there was a TV show that had hunted before I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

And these were long-range guys that they're wanting to shoot to a thousand yards, yada yada, yada. You know the story. Sure. And so the hunter um had the group of sheep in his sights. They um the hunter shot. There were several sheep in the group. The hunter shot and missed. Okay, he took his eyes out of the scope and was yelling at the guide for giving him the wrong yardage, and and then the guide told him to shoot again. The guy got back on his gun, aimed again, but the sheep had switched positions. So he shoots again and he kills a ram, and it was an illegal ram. Oh, and so the result was is that the guy got fined for shooting an illegal ram. I think he lost the animal, whatever. So, why am I telling you this? So here's my $50,000 sheep hunt in Alaska in the middle of nowhere, the most remote place on the planet. You know, I'm hunting a sheep that's never seen a human being before in my life. But the truth is the outfitter knew the sheep, knew where the sheep was, flew me to the place where the sheep was, dropped me off in the place where the sheep was, sent me to go kill the sheep, thinking that the guy had missed, and in reality, he didn't miss, he had hit it in the horn. Yeah, and so why is there a difference between that and hunting on a 15,000-acre property in Texas? Well, why is why is it different? Right. Why is it different when the outfitter has a plane and knows where all the 10-inch and 11-inch mountain goat are and where all the full coral rams are, and where the bears are denting and where the bears are hanging out? Why is it different? Yeah, and what I would say is the difference is 95% of the hunters don't know what's behind door number four.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

They don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And I don't mean to spoil this for anybody, but the truth is that if you're gonna go into remote Alaska and you're gonna go hunt and you're gonna pay this outfitter all this money, you're expecting that guy to have done some work before you get there. Because if he doesn't do work, your 30 or 40 grand is gonna come home empty-handed. And so you're you're paying them to go do this for you so that when you show up in your 10-day hunt, you're successful. And so I just I guess the reason I'm saying that is that we have way more in common than I think what most people realize. And while there's not a fence, there is a mountain, and that mountain is not easy for these animals just to say, hey, I'm gonna go 10 miles to the next mountain over. Sure. They do have some element of a home range. And all I'm trying to say is it's it's a lot easier for us to get along when we accept the realities of what we're doing. And I think if you lift the skirt we're way more in common than what people realize. And it's it's not this purest um reality that that I think some people want to believe. I'm not saying that doesn't exist to some extent because it does. But it's not it's not the that is not the typical product that we are engaging in when we're going and participating in this hobby.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

No, that uh I love it, man. And that's a very cool, cool story. I agree totally with the sentiment of that, Brian. Uh, dude, you've been a unique guest for me to have on the podcast, Brian. I really appreciate your time. And uh I love these topics, man. I'll have to I'll have to have you on again and we'll dive into some more. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

Yeah, I really appreciate it. And uh, you know, I I I really love being able to talk about this sort of stuff and appreciate the opportunity to join you.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:42

Well, let people know uh uh where they can follow you, your where your business is and all that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

Yeah, the name of my company is Wildlife Partners. And we we are a corporate sponsor of Safari Club International, uh Houston Safari Club, and we've done some sponsorship with Dallas Safari Club. Um you can always meet us at SCI. We're at all the conventions. If you're ever there, please stop by our booth. Um, but we're we're based in Bertie, Texas, just outside San Antonio, and our website is wildlifepartners.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:15

Awesome. Thanks, Brian. You bet. Have a great day. If you enjoyed this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliffe.com. Go there, and it's going to be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I guide, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer in the membership site, all the details are there.