36 Years Guiding Elk Hunters and Colorado's New Draw - Scott Limmer

A 36-season Colorado wilderness outfitter, Scott Limmer, doesn't sugarcoat it: the new 50%-random draw is about to blow up point inflation and gut the predictability that made Colorado elk hunting plannable. We get into that, the big-bull reality most hunters won't admit, and a stack of Africa stories you won't hear anywhere else.

In this episode:
Why the 2028 draw overhaul tripled the exact point inflation it was meant to fix
The hard truth about how giant public-land bulls actually get killed
Glassing a burn, calling pressure, and why elk go nocturnal
Getting ambushed by the LRA on a bongo hunt in the Central African Republic
How Gaddafi's loose weapons fueled Africa's elephant-poaching wave
The wolf "crap show" and where Colorado's right-to-hunt fight stands

Scott Limmer - https://www.instagram.com/elimminator/
Scott's Outfitting Business - https://comanchewildernessoutfitters.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

These units that take tons of points, you know, 20 plus points. Yeah. They're trying to stop creating more of those, and they're trying to give everybody a chance. I understand. Like, you know, if you lived in Rangely, Colorado, in the northwest corner, and you want to hunt elk out your back door, good luck, unless you want a cow tag, right? I mean, so I understand. Like they people want to have a chance to draw, um, but I think 50% was a a little bit too big of a change. And it's the unintended consequences are going to be a crap show. I mean, you got you can't plan hunts anymore in other units that were easier to draw. You can't plan them as easily. You want to talk about something that's going to blow up point inflation, this is it. I mean, you take half of the points, half of the tags away from points, and I'm already seeing it of people worried about the change, uh, let alone when the change actually happens. It's if you look at the draw result recap reports right now, and you took away the bottom half of the guys that drew. Well, the minimum to require to draw just went way up.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Scott, got you back on the podcast, man. First question I have for you is that a Niala or a bongo behind you?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Uh I got both in here. Uh, that's a Niala over my shoulder there, full body Niala. And then I have a bongo to my left that you probably can't see.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Dude, I I uh that even makes it worse because I was I was gonna say if that's a bongo, I'm super jealous, man. And now you're not even showing me the bongo, but whatever. Uh I uh well, we're gonna talk about elk hunting stuff primarily, but I do have to ask, where did you you killed the bongo and where the Congo or where?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Uh Central African Republic back uh well be 10 years ago and coming up here pretty quick, June 14th.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Dude, it's it's uh I I I've talked to a couple guys that have done that hunt. Like what a what an adventure. I mean, it's I I I mean you can tell me if I'm wrong, Scott, but there's not really any like safe place to go hunt bongo.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well, it's funny you should mention that because I was probably the last hunter to ever hunt in uh very far eastern uh CAR by the village of Rafai and Dembi. I I actually got attacked on my hunt by nine guys with AK-47s, a group from Uganda came across called the Lord's Resistance Army, LRA, and we walked right into their camp and they started shooting at us, and it was a it's a crazy story. It takes too long, maybe today, but if you want me to tell it sometime, it's uh I have ripcord, you know, travel extraction and medical emergency insurance, and they had to come in and get me. Some UN soldiers got me first, and then ripcord rendezvoused, and we they got me out of that country. It was a pretty crazy story.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Dude, I'll uh I'll mark it down, Scott is just doing like I mean, if you're cool talking about it, we'll just do a whole podcast on it because I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, we should, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear about it, and but uh I do want to focus on the elk hunting stuff. But it's it's that story, and I think I've I've heard it from you before. That story is like it's like one of those things with Africa. Um you you to me when I've been there, it's feels so if I I feel pretty safe, you know what I mean? But it's like lingering in your back of your mind, like when you get to these more adventurous parts of Africa, like what you're talking about is a possibility, but it seems so remote of a possibility to me. But yeah, but your story sticks with me because I'm like, ah, but I know a guy that it happened to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, I I went to CAR. Um, you know, the country had been in kind of upheaval and then it calmed down. The Civil War kind of ended, and um, so I went, you know, I talked to the hunters that went the year before me, and it they they were okay. So I went. Um, and it really wasn't that, it was this rogue group from Uganda that Obama had actually sent special forces over there to help get rid of. They would go into villages and steal the young girls for sex slaves and wives, and they'd take the young boys and and brainwash them, be into turn them into soldiers, and and they were chasing them around. Well, just lucky me, they happened to chase a group of them, you know, earlier. They went and hit out in the CAR, and what's the chances that we walk into their camp? Yeah, I mean, it's just but yeah, I made it through it. It was just it should have been a movie. You know, I've had sure, you know, Ripcord asked me to like you know do a video about it, and I did later, but I couldn't for a while because you know the US government kind of went in there and took care of it, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's uh it's it's uh yeah, it's a wild story.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Well, yeah, I've been to Africa, you know, more than a dozen times, and you know, southern Africa is is really probably quite safe, you know. But you get up into the central portion where I was, and it it's a little bit more dicey, but uh I don't go there anymore. I just stick to eastern and southern.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, I got you. Yeah, but uh I mean maybe maybe when you were going over there, uh Scott, it was it was your mentality about it was different, but do it's kind of I mean, I've only been to South Africa, but there's still like a little edge to things, even though I in the spectrum I'm sure it's super safe, you know. But do you think that's like part of the allure a little bit? I felt like Africa's a freaking adventure, man.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

It's totally an adventure. I mean, I go for the mega flora and fauna. Like, you know, here in Colorado, what we have 10 10 big game animals, right? You know, there they got 150 or whatever it is. Uh we have 10 kinds of trees in our wilderness area, they got a they got 500.

unknown 5:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

You know, they didn't have the um ice ages that came down through North America and reduced our species, you know, numbers over those thousands of years. Uh, and and you know, over there that never happened. So I just love the environment of all those animals, you know. Sure. But yeah, it's always a little, you know, it's some of them are third world countries, so it's always a little edgy, but you just got to make sure you go with good people, you know. Yeah, yeah. And you're you'll be safe. And and I've never had any other trouble. It you know, I would for guys that haven't gone who are worried about that, I'd say I mean southern and eastern Africa to me are more safe than Mexico, I think. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

No, I I yeah, I would I would agree with that from my limited experience. Um the last Africa question I'll ask you. Every guy I know that has like your type of background who, you know, I would say, you know, quintessential wilderness, you know, uh remote elk hunting kind of background, has done, you know, the you know, the apex of what I would call free range hunting for most of their uh life, their life and career. Uh what it do you do you have thoughts on that aspect of South Africa, Scott?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, I mean, I I'm a freedom lover, do what you want kind of guy. For it's just not really for me as much. I mean, I'm a wilderness elk outfitter, sheep, goats, moose. I've been to South Africa once to dart a rhino to finish out my big five.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Um, you know, I I guess I could have shot a rhino, a white rhino. Um, you know, the black rhinos are you know half a million dollars. I wouldn't do something like that. Yeah, sure. But uh the white rhinos aren't near as spooky, I guess, as the black rhinos, they're not as aggressive, and so I didn't want to kill one. I just, you know, I'm not an animal rights activist by any means, but you know, it's just not a super challenge to some white rhino hunts. Um I I I I really enjoyed just darting one and getting my picture with it, and that kind of qualifies as your big five still.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

But yeah, I I've mostly hunted the well, all my other hunts have been free range, you know, the cutadas in Mozambique or the big concessions in Tanzania or um Zambia, um, Botswana. So I'm not a big South African hunter, but I'm not against it. If you know it's kind of almost like an agricultural, some of them get down to raising the animals. They don't, you know, they buy them and bring fresh ones in. I'm I'm just not into that. I, you know, I mean, I I don't high high fence very much. I did on that, you know, that rhino hunt. Yeah, but uh rhino dart. But we and it was cool. They, you know, they they drilled holes in the both the horns and put chips in so they can, you know, keep track of those rhinos for poaching. And um it was a neat experience, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Those are they're they're like a purpose-driven driven hunt. Like they so you're how how does it work, Scott? I mean, you're taking me off on a tangent, but it's intriguing to me. Is it like, hey, they have a rhino that they need to dart, so they bring they bring you in to like be a part of that experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, they have uh, you know, this place I went has just all kinds of rhinos. It's a big place. It was like, I don't know, 60,000 acres or something. Um and every so often, maybe every four years, I think they said, they want to dart these rhinos and upgrade the the chips in the horns, yeah, so that if somebody poaches it and cuts the horn off, they can track that that horn with the microchip. Oh, dude I didn't even know that exists. So it was pretty cool, you know, um being part of that. And they they measure the horns and they you know they um they put an ear notch in the ears to identify those rhinos. They don't put an ear tag that they they'll make a little slice in the ears, both ears to kind of so they can when they see that rhino again, they they can look back at that and hopefully tell it apart.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Well, it's kind of like cattle, like a kid mark on cattle or something.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, like a brand almost.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

But it's not a brand, it's just an ear notch.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

But yeah, so they know they I got you.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

So it's sort of conservation over there to save those rhinos. You know, they I had to pay, right? Um, so it goes towards supporting those rhinos and and uh you know, breeding them, and uh, you know, they take rhinos out of those facilities and turn them loose, you know, like in the Sabe Valley Conservancy in Zimbabwe and different places, they're releasing rhinos, you know, in the wild.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah. It's I uh they're a weird animal, man. Yeah, it it like I I I have so little experience with them being around or whatever, but I've seen them, that's the extent of it. And it's kind of like I mean, I understand the rhino poaching thing, there's a but there's a part of me it's like, is this animal like destined for failure in the modern world? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Like well, you know, the thing is, is except when they were really young, they didn't really have predators, so they're sure they're not crazy spooky, you know, at least white rhinos. Like I said, the black rhinos for some reason are a little more edgy and are apt to charge you a lot quicker. Um, but you still want to mess around with white rhinos too much, but they're they're a little more uh docile.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

And there's way more white rhinos than black rhinos, so when most people go over there and dart one or shoot one, it's it's gonna be a white most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Okay, gotcha. But uh, but it's been it's overall like a success story, right? I mean, I I'm I'm totally just going on like my anecdotal thought process, but 20 years ago, it was like they were gonna go extinct. There was nobody hunting them, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I mean, yeah, yeah, and uh you know this place had incredible security. They had a room full of computer screens, they have cameras all over the facility, they have cameras out on the highway even, or the and then turning off onto the gravel road, they have cameras just to see who's driving around. They're they haven't had one poached in a long time, but it does happen, you know. Um it has happened to them, and it's happened, of course, elsewhere. Right. And these, you know, the the it's just crazy to me. Like, I I've been to China. You I know you've traveled a lot. My wife and I went to China for our anniversary a while back and spent two weeks there. And you know, our we had a guide in each city we went to, just and a driver that we arranged, and and they're educated women, they were school teachers, and they were tour guides during school when school's not in session. Okay, and they still just you know, even there with these educated college degreed people, they still believe in that that kind of voodoo eastern medicine about rhino horn and lion bones and tiger bones, and you know, it's just man, if I if I could be president for a day, there'd be a lot of things I would do, but one of them would be to really get on Vietnam and China and those countries about all that stuff. I mean, they're just wiping out our wildlife.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah, it needs it's almost like I don't know the solution, but I I almost feel like it needs to be like an anti-smoking campaign. Like like they like they just need to be like it's like an education issue. And maybe that sounds asinight to me saying that, but I I just feel like that's kind of what it is. It's like it's it's a scares us, so it's attractive to them. So now there's a narrative that it's like magic. Yeah, it's very detrimental.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

You know, there's parts of their medicine, Eastern medicine thing with the different herbs and stuff that's probably useful. But you know, rhino horn is keratin. It's your fingertips. It's your fingernail.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Same exact material or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Two of your fingernails if you need uh an aphrodisiac then. You know, I mean Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

You know, yeah. But I think it's just I think it's again, this might uh, you know, I'm not like trying to crap on uh, you know, Asian cultures or whatever, but I I almost feel like it's uh it's just like a different mindset. Like you value the like you you you I mean you've experienced wildlife in rhino, so you hold it at like a very that's the thing that seems to outweigh it. You know, that's what's important to them. It's just a scarce, it's like a scarce commodity, it's like a status thing, probably, or whatever. So I I get that.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, they it's just a health issue over there. They believe in eating and drinking these certain things helps your health more than no, but now that we have actual, you know, science, you know, where we can analyze those compounds and everything, there they're there's drugs available that would do that much better, you know, because keratin that doesn't do anything, yeah. Yeah, yeah, sure. It just but they're so entrenched in that culture from you know, really literally thousands of years ago. I mean, like all those dynasties over there. I mean, our country is so young, that country's one of the oldest, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's just how do you turn that around?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah, well, and dude, I had an interesting conversation with the guy who's uh his name is Craig Dory. I wrote wrote an interesting book, and he he he was I can't remember what which country he was in Africa, but he was a Ph for like 30 years. Um doesn't really hunt anymore, but was involved in a lot of anti-poaching stuff, and that's and that's what his book's about. Uh but his perspective was was interesting, Scott, because his perspective was he kind of like turned it on me. He's like, Hey, you have to you have to understand like if you're a guy it you know there and rhino horn, like you're a wealthy guy, and rhino horn is like a status symbol or whatever, like your perspective on it is a lot different than like what you know than than how we view it. And I and he he had a he had a good way of explaining it. And then he also I I do I I during the conversation with him, Scott, I it's like I realized like I had a lot of comp it sounds weird, but in a way, like almost um compassion's not the right word, but I could understand why the poachers would do what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

I mean Yeah, well they're poor, they're poor and they're trying to feed themselves and their families, and they just live for the day, Cliff over there, as you know. Sure, they don't long-term plan, you know. So, you know, and what a lot of people I think one thing that's important to touch on is the outfitters in Africa in the free range areas, without them, there's no wildlife. Yeah, I mean, they're anti-poaching teams. Uh, you know, it's not like here where you have game wardens and and the rule of law respect it. These outfitters spend tens of thousands of dollars on anti-poaching teams, vehicles for them, equipment for them, radios. You know, I was in Cameroon last year in that concession there. I hunted the only was the only one that's been approved where they're anti-poaching can carry guns legally. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, you know, a lot of these anti-hunters don't get it. Without hunting in Africa, there is no wildlife. You know, it's right. Can you imagine like Kenya outlawed hunting in 77? And that was really about you know, their the family of the of the leader was very involved in ivory.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And they wanted to get all the outfitters out of the field so that they could ivory poach. All these NGOs think think it was uh all these uh bleeding heart anti-hunting groups think it was because of their anti-hunting in Kenya. Well, a lot of it was because of the ivory trade, and then in Kenya now there's no animals really outside of the national parks. Can you imagine being in the United States and having no wildlife outside of our national parks?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah, like literally annihilated.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, and so these wild concessions that I went to, they all have anti-poaching programs. Without them, you know, those animals would get killed. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

And that and that that's like an economic reality. Like, and I and I get I mean, I like if they're not protected, I kind of put myself in those people's shoes. If somebody offered me that opportunity to literally like change my family's existence, I would totally poach. Yeah, I mean, you know, like if I was in that economic situation. So yeah, if you didn't have a dollar, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

If you I mean if it like literally changed the difference between your kids having food or whatever, like I, you know, I I but there's there's there's what you have there is you have people poaching for their own pot and kettle, but then you also have the bushmeat trade, yeah, where they're doing it commercially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

And it all kind of blend it all starts to blend.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

They take it into town, into their villages, and sell it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

So it's and I know they have a hard life, a lot of those people, but they just can't see the value of always having those animals. They're just living for the today, you know. And the US history, right? Back in the 1800s when we shot a lot of the buffalo off and the carrier, you know, the pigeons and all that kind of those animals aren't, you know, as populated anymore. I mean, that that one species of pigeon's gone forever. Right. But yeah, I think the people out west here just they thought it would live forever or they thought it would go on forever. Even on uh in my unit 20 area with Hunt Elk, there's a mountain called Crozier Mountain, which is named for an old guy, Crozier, that had a commercial hunting camp there to provide food for the miners and for the settlers, you know. Right. So it's yeah, we we kind of went through the same thing, only not we got out of it after a while.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

All right, guys, it's some of my content. You're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. It should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's Cliff G and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. Yeah. I I but I think like the bigger picture thing that because I had heard that Kenya deal in honestly, Scott, I was like, ah, this sounds kind of like a conspiracy theory. And I I don't know the details of it, but if you look at what happened, that's gotta be the explanation. Because once it once the commercial hunting or once hunting was shut down, I mean it's a huge number of elephants that were poached there. I I I've had guys tell me that it literally created a migr, like they killed a lot of the elephants, but also the elephants were smart enough to migrate out of there.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yeah. Well, I got another, yeah. I mean, I got another one for you, too, is um, and this is proven to be true, the Central African Republic outfitters were telling me about it and Cameroon. Um, when back when Obama was president, Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State, you know, they took out Gaddafi in Libya. You know, they they killed him, they bombed him.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Well, and and he got captured by the rebels then in his country after they bombed his palace and everything, and and then he was killed. And then a lot of those small arms that Qaddafi had went south. The AKs, the rifles, they they spread throughout Africa, and that's why you had so much poaching of elephants from like 2010 to 2016. It was really bad. Um, oh, because they had ammo in the weapons, they had ammo and guns that came all the way down from Libya through Sudan and Chad and into CAR and Cameroon and all the way down. And so many elephants were killed because we Hillary Clinton and Qaddafi.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Nobody talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

That's some that's a real thing that happened. Yeah, it's not a conspiracy theory. That's where the weapons came from.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I've and I've heard that from other people too. It's hard, I think it's hard for an American to get grips on that because to me, and I had this conversation with Craig, it's amazing to me that the a lot of the poachers, their resources are so limited that access to a gun actually makes a gigantic difference.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

It's uh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

And if you know it's we're hunters, but uh I I I hate to see that happen to those elephants. I mean, do you know how many shots it takes with an AK 47 to kill an elephant? I mean, it's uh it's like crazy, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah, well and Craig told me like like even though Craig seemed to have like a nuanced perspective on it, he mentioned that he's like, dude, the the worst of it that that that I that I can't see anything is is like is that they'll Like they would just mow down, like they just shoot every like they'd shoot the babies, the moms, whatever, because they're just trying to get get like and they don't and what's interesting to me is he's like, dude, a lot of them they don't even track because they just like they just figure out what they can get quickly and that's it, and then leave, you know. Yeah, which is right, which I think everybody can get.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

I've been over there and actually on three of my different hunts, we've actually caught a poacher or two. Oh, okay. We handed them the Game Scout ties them up, put them in the back of the cruiser, we haul them over and dump them off with the authorities. Yeah. Chasing them down. One had a had a had a an old FN Mauser bolt action rifle with they had one 375 H cartridge and they had one empty.

unknown 22:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

And they saw us coming and they just threw it and ran. Luckily, yeah. So we we did catch that guy and got his rifle. And it's it's the big deal over in Africa. You know, a lot of those countries have 100% gun control, right? So you get caught over there with a rifle. Now that's one thing. Poaching can be a slap on the wrist in some places, but if you've got a gun, that's more of a uh different.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's like an additional thing. Well, dude, uh, we could we could talk about that. I'm gonna have you back on. We're gonna do the we're gonna do the bongo story and we can dive deeper into that. But let's let's spend the latter half of this talking shifting back to Colorado. Um and elk hunting. Scott, let's start with well, I my first question is I know that it, you know, I no longer live in Colorado, but everybody's telling me that probably like the driest winter slash spring. Do you have do you have thoughts or recommendations for people that are gonna come hunt hunt this next year in terms of I mean anything, man? Like what do you think how how you think that'll play out for folks?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, I mean, I think the high country is always wet, you know. I I don't think it's so much a problem for the higher elevations and things, like, but down lower, it's you know, I know for our horses and our pasture and hay here in Livermore, um, nobody's even gonna really have a hay crop. I mean, we did get a foot of really good wet, heavy snow uh in early, early May, and then we had a couple little rains after that. So we're greened up now, but we had two snowfalls all through the winter. One earlier, and then this one in early May, which you know is really spring. So we had very little snow this year in most areas, um, which means our ditch water for the allocation for the farmers is way down. They're getting 25% allocation. So we're not gonna have much for hay. I I have a semi-load of hay showing up here today, uh, this afternoon. We're gonna feed our horses instead of let them graze much this year because we're just worried that if we don't get continuous rains, we're gonna hurt our pastures. But for game animals and hunters, you know, it's definitely dry in northern Colorado. It's it's gotten better here lately. And like I just drove through southern Wyoming on the way to the Black Hills, the South Dakota, and until you got near the Black Hills, man, it was brown still. Yeah, I mean, it's this whole southeast Wyoming, you know, northern Colorado um is pretty dry. Um, the mountains are always a little bit wetter, of course. But yeah, it's gonna affect some things for hunters. I mean, um, probably more late season, winter range type of issues, but you know, the high country is definitely gonna, you know, some of those springs and seeps are gonna be a little drier this year, things of that nature. But it's always green up on top, as you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, if you if you look back, because because I've kind of waffled on this a little bit, if you look back all the seasons that that you've hunted in Colorado, um, and particularly this comes up from archery hunters quite a bit. Do you do you like it for archery hunters particularly, Scott, do you think it's easier to kill elk when the when it's drier, or do you think it's harder?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Well, my areas are always wet. We we can't really water hole hunt or anything. We just have water and seeps and creeks everywhere. But in in the southern states, or even in southern Colorado, and you go into Mexico and Arizona, I mean, when it's drier, I think if you do find water, it's definitely a plus, right? For for some of that. I but it can hurt the antler growth down there, right? Um, but yeah, I'm not able to do, you know, even wallows here and stuff. We have so many, it's hard to like sit there and kill an elk. Yeah, they just have so many choices of where to drink and wallow. But uh, we have we actually killed a 387 bull once off of a wallow. Um, I had a guy that couldn't walk and his partner could walk, so I set him by a wallow and he killed a giant, you know. I wasn't even there for it.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

What do you what do you what do you think that like that particular bull? I mean, you're talking about I mean, you you hunting stuff that you know gets some hunting pressure for sure. Like a huge bull like that. Do you think it's just behavior over the years made it so he just never like the only way you're gonna kill him was if he was on a wallow? Because he was just the way he existed, he he never exposed himself.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

This this was mid-archer season. Um we are a draw unit, but not crazy hard to draw. You know, it doesn't this this particular unit, I'm not gonna name it, but it doesn't take, you know, double digit points. So there the pressure's somewhat limited, but there's still a good number of tags. But that bull um actually, we were, you know, did our kind of morning quick hike, and I wanted to go further, and this guy couldn't, so I I set him on this wallow right at tree line, and then I continued on with his hunting partner, and then that bull was actually bedded up top, up higher above tree line in some crumb holts, you know, like those stunted pines that grow above tree line. He was bedded in a patch of that. Um, and then uh a spike bull came into that wallow and started splashing around, and that big bull was oh no, and he came running down the mountain and chased the spike out of the wallow. Yeah, and then my my my client shot him, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

That's wild. Dude, so you wonder you wonder like a bull like that. He's kind of in an exposed area. You wonder if without that scenario, maybe he only maybe he only exposed himself in the dark or something, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, oh for sure. Yeah, or very early and late. As we've talked about before, elk or so nocturnal, you gotta be there early and late. But uh sure. Yeah, he was uh uh a six by six, and then he had an extra 14-incher on him, a extra 14-inch tyne, almost like a crown, like a like a red deer. Yeah. Um, so you know, he was like 370 plus a 14-inch extra. Um a little more than that, actually. But yeah, um, but we get a few of those 350 plus bulls every year, but um, yeah, you just don't know when they're gonna pop up, you know. It's just how do they live that long? How do they, you know, they're yeah, I mean, and you know how it is. Uh, when you get on a group elk and there's several different bulls, it's really hard to always get the biggest one with your bow. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, you got all these satellite bulls and maybe even a couple of big bulls that are fighting over the herd and challenging, and it can be difficult to get that big guy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, I actually like to hunt the bigger bulls a little earlier in the yeah, and I I mean, I'll admit to this, Scott, like many times I've been in those situations, maybe on the far end of the spectrum in the flat tops when we got lucky and we had those situations, and then you know, on on very nice ranches that I've guided over the years where you run into that situation more. Yeah, a lot of times the reality is I think with like a limited amount of time, guys compromise. And they don't you you get where like we're not gonna kill that bull. Like, this is like let's kill one of these other bulls that's around that we can actually kill with our bow. You know what I mean? It's just it's kind of like you you you start to realize the reality of like, hey, like that herd bull or what you know, the whatever the situation is pretty damn hard to kill. And I I kind of I've said this out loud a few times, and maybe I've offended some people, but I think a lot of people who claim that they killed the killed the herd bull, I think they might have killed the herd bull that was the herd bull last week, but they killed him when he wasn't the herd bull anymore, or you know, vice versa, or whatever. Because I've had they're freaking hard to kill when there's more when there's a lot of elk, it's even worse.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, you know, yeah, you got 50 cows and five or six bulls running around. It it yeah, or even a dozen cows or whatever. It's just yeah, it can be hard. Like, you know, I just got back in brown bear guiding, and we had a hot sow by our camp with four big boars chasing around. We never got any of those four. Yeah, they were chasing her so much we could never get in between them, and we end up getting two big bears. But those particular four boars, she took them over the ridge, and you know, and then we're hunting with a rifle, but with a bow with elk, yeah, it can be hard to get that big guy, yeah. Out of the middle of the chaos.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

But the like the bull you mentioned, though, that big one you guys killed, even yeah, I know you said it was a draw unit, but even then, I mean, you know the country well that that I used to hunt in there in the flat tops, which you know it's for the well, I mean, well, with I guess non-resident now it's draw or whatever, but for the most part gets the shit hunted out of it. But I was amazed every once in a while. I mean, I have sheds off 300 and you know, cloth like just a hair under 370 inch bulls that live over there. Oh, yeah. And you and how do they make it through?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I mean, these elk, you know, like I said to you before, I I think they're like a big white tail on steroids. I mean, they're like they're smart. I mean, this is there are no pushovers. Um you know, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna luck into one once in a while, or you know, um, you'll run across hunters that have shot a giant bull, it just they get, you know, just by chance it walked into them, whatever. But like when you know a specific one and you're after them, I mean it's tough. I mean, it's and then like how how do they live through all that? I mean, it's yeah, it's it's wilderness and being pretty smart. I mean, they get educated and and uh it can be pretty tricky. I mean, elk are elk or spook, you know, a lot of elk are pretty wily and spooky.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, they figure it they figure it out. It's real dependent on pressure. It's kind of a perverse thing, but thinking about like the bigger bulls that I ran into that were we either killed or or I ran into you know DIY guys that killed, they were in scenarios that were clearly luck, Scott. You know what I mean? Like you know, eight, you know, eight yards off of like a main bottom valley trail, dead 350-inch bull. That bull did not live there. He like he they killed him because he he ran got ran out of somewhere else or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Passing passing through searching for hot cows or something.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, something odd. Like something odd tripped him up, and then somebody was there to take advantage of that opportunity. Uh not not to not to take anything away from people who've come to that big one on public land, but they're a a big proportion of them are like luck's a big factor.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Well, I tell my hunters like, you know, they anticipate the hunt for so long, and sometimes they they have a hard time shooting a large animal on the first day of the hunt because they don't want it to end. They just got there. So I was like, I'm like, you know, you take the easy ones because there's a lot of hard ones.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, heck yeah, man. For sure. Guys, biltong, okay? I've been obsessed with this stuff for three or four years. Ever since I got on a keto, carnivore, paleo-esque type of diet, I've had a hard time finding healthy snacks. Biltong is a great option, particularly the slabs that have this fat on the side. That's where your energy is if you're a fat burner like me. Super simple ingredients in this, guys. Literally one, two, three, four, five ingredients. Pair that to your gas-tasting jerky, a great snack in the backcountry or just day-to-day. Biltong Depot is a huge supporter of my content. Go to their website, biltongdepot.com. Use my code CliffGray, C-L-I-F-F-G-R-A-Y, at checkout for 10% off. And to support this content. Thanks, guys. Um I, you know, back on the dry conditions, and maybe this is anecdotal. I always thought in the flat tops it's got, like if that, if because there there's so much feed in those flats, like right at timberline. Yeah. I always felt like when you had a dry year, I felt like our elk were a little bit lower. Like they kind of like they didn't stick to the top as much because the feed that's just something I I it I felt like I felt like for us, like we had the same deal, water everywhere. So wallows are like a total crapshoot. Like I almost, I almost felt like I could sit guys more consistently on trails that I knew elk were using, and it'd be better in wallows, because like you say, there's so many active wallows. Yeah. Even in a super dry year. But I felt like our elk sometimes, if it was really dry, they'd end up in like when they're rotten, they'd end up in the aspens, like more so, you know, just because there's better feed in there.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, uh, you know, on the east side of the divide, you were on the west side. We don't have aspen like you all have. Yeah. So our elk, it's like they're either at tree line or they were down in the heavy timber. And there's a few open hillsides and a few meadows and parks. But yeah, the, you know, you have these areas that grass grows in the timber and it's a little more, you know, wet and lush and shaded, doesn't get the sun baked out of it. We we struggled with that too. You know, uh, where it would be hard to dig them out of those areas. We, you know, it's much easier to shoot them above tree line with a rifle and things, and you know, and even archery muzzle, or you at least see them above tree line. Like a lot of our country is visual, um, especially now we've had a you know the biggest fire in Colorado wildlife or wildfire history come through our area back in 2020. But um before that fire, yeah, there were times it would get frustrating when they'd shut off bugling and they're not really coming above treeline a lot. And they you knew they're feeding in those little green spots here and there in the timber where there's grass growing in the trees and things. Right. You know, that gets tricky.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

I in art so it's it I don't have a ton of experience in the in the country that you hunt, but I'm familiar with the vegetation, and I feel like that's the case, right? It's like they're either exposed or they're very much not exposed. Yeah. But when you're when your elk are in that heavy timber and like glassing, and this could be archery or rifle, and glassing's really not like I mean, well, I guess one, do you still depend on glassing or are there other tactics you use? I mean, do you guys still hunt the timber? Do you do any of that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Before the fire, I didn't like to blow up the bedroom country unless they were bugling. You know, then you can keep track of them and you know where they're at. But for me and a hunter or two to sneak up on a group of elk and kill the big bull out of a dozen elk or whatever, when they're bedded or you know, it's you sometimes you're hurting yourself more than you're you're accomplishing. So we, you know, that's why we I mean, early and late, you have to be out there in the dark, you know, and return in the dark and get those windows at you know, early morning and late evening and not be hiking back to camp. You know, you got to be there till dark and get back late and put in those hours. And at midday, you know, I didn't really blow up the bedrooms much. It's there, but we did have some parks and little open side hills and meadows, but now with the burn, it's just amazing. Now we can glass from ridge to ridge and pick them out of the timber. And these elk and these burns, they think they're hidden still. Yeah, they don't realize we can glass them now. Yeah, you know, it's difficult glassing, you gotta you know, pick them out, you know, and like their bodies are like the color of the grass when it's browning off or whatever, and then their their legs and their necks are black like the burned trees. It's still a challenge to pick them out, yeah. Uh, but you can do it much easier than before the fire. But yeah, before the fire, uh those were some tough hunts once in a while when they weren't coming to tree line.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah, and you just have to depend on the fact that you're still dependent on basically glassing, but you've got to catch them right on the edges, right at dark, basically. Yeah. And then you know where they're at and kind of make a play based on the and we always did better doing that than blowing up the bedrooms.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

You know, I mean, you just if you go down and stir them up in the heavy black timber too much, they won't come out then in the evening until dark 30, you know? Yeah. So we tried to be a little easier going with it. Um, and some people who came out like once in a while get a comment like, Well, I'm not paying all this money to take a nap every day. I'm like, Well, you know, we can blow all the elk out of here and get your money's worth hiking around when it's pretty fruitless hiking.

unknown 39:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

I'm I'm a hard hunter, don't get me wrong, but you know, I'm up early and out late, but at midday, we would take a break if the elk were taking a break.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

And we occasionally, yeah, it doesn't mean we're always back at camp. You know, we might sit on a ridge in glass or you know, take a nap on the side of the mountain and eat our lunch. Um, and once in a while you get lucky and an elk stumbles through, you know, unexpectedly in the middle of the day, but not too often.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah. I mean, I think that's just an experience thing, Scott. Like you, I like you and I like we realize even if you know where they're at in the timber, you know where they're bedded. You realize after doing it a few times and screwing it up, you realize like even when they seem like they're easy, even with a rifle, there's usually a reason they're not. I guess that's my perspective at least.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah, the odds are stacked against something. Yeah, the odds are stacked against you in a heavy timber if they're not bugling. But it can be the best if they're bugling, right? Because you have cover. Yeah, you can see up instead of dealing with that tree line bugling and all that with bow and muzzlers, you know. But yeah, if they're talking, it's it's great. Um, but once they quiet down, like first rifle, some years is bugling and some years not, right? You've probably seen that yourself. Yeah. Um when it's bugling still in first rifle, that's always fun.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, it's just easier to find stuff and yeah, just go here.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

And those big bulls, they start to pull off the cows, you know, and let the young bulls kind of finish out, you know. Right. And they get pretty hard to kill again.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

But uh do you have an opinion on vocalization, Scott? Like uh do you think there's do you think there's populations of elk that just in general vocalize way less? Do you think it has to do with density? Do you think it has to do with um like regional stuff, hunting pressure? Do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Well, outside of Colorado, where they've had wolves longer, I've heard the wolves even like the the bugling elk kind of shut down a bit because of the wolves using as a location beacon, right? Just like just like human hunters, you know. Oh, there's one bugle and let's go.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Um, but around here where we haven't had wolves for very long or much of a foothold, I think they know each other. And when in the peak of the rut, you know, they're more open to stranger voices and other bugles. Um, and they're just so riled up that you know they make a mistake, right? Um, but yeah, I they can get pretty call-shy. I'm not a I'm kind of a like I read an article many years ago from Chuck Adams, and it it just hit home to me. It's my philosophy is I don't walk around a location bugle all the time. I mean, I might throw one down a canyon here or there, but I'm not walking around cow-calling all the time or bugling all the time. I'm our country is visual, even before the fire, we could see Elkit tree line early and late and then make a plan on them, get underneath them in the timber, work them in the timber for a while. Um I wasn't one to really location bugle and educate them much, you know. Right. Because, you know, we've all been there when they're and they come right in and then we've been there where they run the other way.

unknown 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Yeah, dude, I I think it's I think it's I think for somebody who's out there like trying to figure out elk, I think it's exceptionally difficult, even with this absurd amount of content out there, because I I think that calling strategies, maybe in like one region or one set of like, you know, pressure level and that sort of thing, may be very effective, but then if you went somewhere else, it'd be the almost exact opposite of what you want to do. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that makes it a difficult learning curve. It's almost like you gotta figure out what works for where you're hunting them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, I think a lot of our success was we just knew the areas the elk prefer because we live here and we've been doing this. Is our 36th season coming up, right? So, you know, whereas a guy on his own, he doesn't really know maybe as much unless he's has a chance to scout some, like where those elk actually prefer to be when pressure's on and and even before the pressure. So we try to locate elk that way and then talk to them. Yeah, you know, if we needed to.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

You're with the with the change in the fact that a chunk of your country burned, have you seen that they still they still kind of stick to the same spots, or have they drastically changed?

SPEAKER_00 43:29

It's kind of crazy. I've seen both. Like there's areas that we never used to find elk, yeah, that now they love. Okay. And then there's some of the old true tested areas that they still are there. Right. But it has opened the doors to more areas that never had elk before or not near as much, and now they can feed everywhere. They don't need to come to tree line. Right. So, like you'll see some of our pictures on our website. There's you know, you'll see burned timber in the background quite a bit. We still kill them at tree line, too, but it's really Opened up doors for us to have more options, you know. Like, like said, before we had tree line and a few limited openings to catch them in unaware, feeding, grazing. Um, but now it's just it's almost in a way, it's more complicated. It's like wow, there's so many places to go look and check. Where do we go this morning? You know, yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

But it's great to have more choices.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Yeah, and overall, it's probably better habitat now.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we have, I mean, uh, in our other unit, um, Cliff, we were 100% last year until you know, it's the special unit unit 20 with December and January bull elk hunts. We were 100% archery, muzzle, the four regular rifle.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

And then in December, January, we had a couple guys miss and a couple guys didn't get elk. But the and there's a lot of burn there too. It it's really helped us in the wilderness. Same. We we're we're having more success than we've ever had. Yeah, it's the burn has been pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, the burn has helped you. Are your are your elk populations growing?

SPEAKER_00 45:06

I mean, luckily, I'm able to work with the biologist and game of fish here, like keep our tag numbers set, like they don't go up. Um so that has helped a lot, and then just I think even areas 20 miles away where we would have never had those elk in our area. I think they've some of them showed up because of the burn. I gotcha. You know, I I think our population is up a little bit that way, either that or it's just easy, so much easier to find them and see them. I don't know. Yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Like, I I feel like I'm I'm kind of out of the mix, like no longer outfitting there. You know, like I guided last year in the flat tops, and I've I've I mean where I was at, like, you know, it was kind of adjacent to where I'd historically hunted a lot. They're the elk seem to be doing real well. I mean, it's it's anecdotal, but it's just based on you know the history and it and they're not you know, those all that country I don't mind kind of you know talking about a little bit because it's no secret to anybody. But a lot of those guys in the units on the meeker side of the flat tops, they say elk are kicking ass, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Like I wish we I wish we could say the same for our mule deer, but yeah, our elk are really strong right now. I mean, our elk hunting is as good as it's ever been where in my units, and I I hear that around the state too. It's pretty good, you know. Yeah, um it it's this is the this is some of our best elk days right now. Yeah, and we just gotta keep it from getting screwed up, you know. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I got you. Um I I what I used to hear, you know, several you know, last 10 years so is southern Colorado, maybe not so much. Sure. But in central and northern Colorado, I think we have as many elk now as we used to have back in the 80s, you know, and then it got the game of fish kind of went into kill mode and and increased tags a lot and stuff, and now we got that kind of back down, and and I think uh we're as good as we've ever been.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, it's all starting to come back, which is which is a good good sign. That's a good uh segue into let's talk about the big draw changes. Yeah, and I and I'd love to hear your perspective on that because I've waffled on that too. Like I've come to one conclusion in my mind mathematically, and then and then kind of you know what you know how what is this actually all gonna look like. Um and if we get through that, we can we can also maybe touch on a little bit of like the the political issues that Colorado's dealing with. But uh, but yeah, the the new draw stuff, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

I think it's a it's it's it's not a good thing. I mean I I thought I almost had it, some of it changed around. I was you know, years ago I was a stakeholder in what we call Big Lap Big Game License Allocation Project back in the late 90s. I was on one of 20 stakeholders on that group that made recommendations to the wildlife commission and the and the C back then it was CDAW, you know, staff. And um, so I know the draws inside and out. I I was kind of on the team that helped design them, you know. Right. Well, this time around I I wasn't able to get on that. Sure. For these draw changes coming up, I don't think they wanted me on it.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

I I have a tendency to be a little outspoken, but um I think we had we had some we had some good wars, let's be honest, Scott.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

I mean, I was actually in in communication by cell phone to cell phone with the the chairman of the commission during when they voted for these changes a year or two couple years ago. Okay, and I thought he was gonna back it down. Like to me, to take half of our tags and make them random is too big of a change. Why don't we go 25% of them? Yeah, but to take 50% away from preference points when the goal is to decrease point inflation, that just tripled it. I mean, yeah, you take 50% of the tags away. Um, after so you have a preference point draw for 50%, and then the other 50%, they're gonna be a bonus point draw. Yeah, there's still some people with high points that are gonna draw either way, right? But you're gonna have guys with two and three points drawing a tag that takes 10, they used to take 10, and then there's gonna be a lot of point inflation, you know, because you took off half of the tag. So I try to tell them do 25% or only do this 50-50 thing in the units that are experiencing, you know, all these all this point inflation where it takes 30 years to draw. Why don't we single those out? Why are we gonna change a unit that takes one or two points to a 50-50 point slash hybrid uh bonus point draw when it's not a problem? Everybody draws every other year. Well, why screw that up? I mean, people can plan how how are we gonna plan our hunts now as hunters as much? How are outfitters gonna plan their schedules in advance? I mean, I don't know about you, but for 36 years now, I've been able to predict the draw. Sure. And now in my so for like Unit 20, where we're at, where it's you know already takes quite a few points. We're seeing point of now, everybody's worried. Like, I get calls every week, like, well, I heard this change is coming. I really want to use my points. I'm finally going to apply for an actual license. You know, I could have booked a thousand hunters last, you know, for this last draw. So guys that just wanted spots, but we only take a couple guys each season in Unit 20, maybe three at times. Um, I turned away so many people that had 20 points, just they're worried about the upcoming changes. And it's it is going to be drastic. I mean, we don't even quite know, you know, we compensated for it this year by having our hunters have even more points than we would have normally asked them, required them to have to put in.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Uh, because we contract our hunters in advance. We sent them a contract, we get a deposit, because I could predict the draw. Um, and we made sure they had well more than the minimum this year.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

And we still had a few guys not draw. So so was that would make it because of the point inflation that the uh expected change is already producing. It's already producing point inflation. And when it happens, it's gonna be more. So it's it's gonna be rock, it's gonna be a bumpy road, Cliff.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah, just like I mean, part the part of it's just the uncertainty, right? Now, yeah, now in what was the was one of the motivations to do to to stimulate exactly what you're talking about, like get some of those guys to burn their points. Was that one of the motivations? Or like what was what was the actual like because because that like I think we could talk about the fairness component of it, Scott. To me, that's pretty obvious. If you had a bunch of preference points, you just got screwed. Like that's kind of I mean that seems to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

No, yes and no. Okay. I mean, if you're if you're at let let's say you were trying for unit two, and let's say it takes 30 points just for math, and you were there at 28, 29, and maybe you're gonna catch up to it. Yeah, yeah, you kind of got screwed. But if you had 10 points and want to hunt unit 10 or 2, you got a chance now.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

You had a chance to draw now that you never had before. Yeah, so that's why they're doing it. I could understand that, but not 50% of the tags, guys. Yeah, yeah. I mean, let's take 25% and make them random, you know? Yeah, yeah. 50% is huge.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Yeah, I mean, they they were it was they're trying they're they're basically trying to keep the integrity of their system intact where people are willing to keep entering it. Is that is that what it was? Like, like you're getting this deal where people are like, Well, I'm not gonna do it anymore if there's no way I can ever like it.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

I think it was more I think it was more these units that take tons of points, you know, 20 plus points. Yeah, they're trying to stop creating more of those, and they're trying to give everybody a chance. I understand, like you know, if you lived in Rangely, Colorado, in the northwest corner, and you want to hunt elk out your back door, good luck, unless you want a cow tag, right? I mean, so I understand like they people want to have a chance to draw, um, but I think 50% was a a little bit too big of a change. And it's the unintended consequences are gonna be a crap show. I mean, you got you can't plan hunts anymore um in other units that were easier to draw, you can't plan them as easily. Um, you know, it's gonna you want to talk about something that's gonna blow up point inflation, this is it. I mean, you take half of the points, half of the tags away from points, and I'm already seeing it of people worried about the change, uh, let alone when the change actually happens. It's if you look at the draw result recap reports right now, and you took away the bottom half of the guys that drew, well, the minimum to require to draw just went way up.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, yeah. On on the on like the predictable preference point side, yeah. Exactly. And that's uh almost like outside, like just nationwide as an elk hunter, it has that implication because every kind everybody that I knew depended like Colorado was kind of like there's predictability there. You know what I mean? They they they may be taking Hail Marys on these other states or whatever, but I'm going elk hunting in Colorado because I've got seven points and I'm gonna draw, you know, or what, you know, or whatever, or I'm gonna go, you know, hunt every couple years I'm gonna hunt a unit that takes two points or whatever. Exactly. And now you have now now the state is gonna enter a world where it's a lot more like these other states and it's just unpredictable.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we had a couple guys in December not draw. We picked up one other guy who did draw that contacted us that we weren't contracted with in advance. Um, stuff like that's gonna become commonplace, and um, we're gonna have to change our model a little bit, you know. Like if guys call us, and we book a couple years out. So guys got 20 points, okay. We're gonna take a deposit and contract you. But if you're on the edge, we're not, you know, we're just gonna say, okay, well, let us know if you draw, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Yeah, yeah, because you can't you can't take deposits from a hundred guys and hope three of them draw, whatever. That's an extreme.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

But the complaints I you know, it's funny that we're going away from predictability because I have a lot of friends that are outfitters in Wyoming and they'd be like, Man, we wish we had your system, you know, because sure one year we got 10 guys draw and we go bankrupt. Next year we have 25 guys draw and we can't handle them all. It was topsy turvy up and down. We wish we had a point system. Well, then they adopted a point system very similar to ours, and now we're going away from it.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Well, it's like, yeah, it's it's I understand it for those units.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Like I said, the threshold should have been maybe if it takes 10 or 15 or more points to draw, you do this 50-50 thing. Uh great. But don't do it to every little unit that doesn't take those kind of points. I mean, why? Why would you take the predictability out? I mean, really, in a unit that takes one or two points, it's gonna go to three now. It's gonna go to four eventually on the predictable side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

And that that kind of to me, the really crappy part from a hunter's perspective is it kind of like one cool thing about Colorado, I thought, and I was I always prescribe this to people like, hey, if you really want to be like a multi-decade elk hunter, go figure out a unit in Colorado, be it be it like easy to draw or two-point draw or like whatever. Yeah, because man, if like over 10 years you can draw it five times, you're gonna crush it versus like just getting one tag for 10 points, you know, and waiting 10 years. Now, now that's like up in the air, you know.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Yeah, I mean, still some of those people will draw on the random side and get lucky, but the predictability is gone, you know, for a lot of areas now. So it's gonna be how do you plan your vacations? How do you plan it with your kids? Like your son lives out of state and he wants to come back and hunt with you, and it's gonna be a bumpy road, you know. I don't think you know, everybody thinks it sounds great. Now I got a chance to draw unit two with six points, you know. Yeah, well, what about your every other day hunting that you know you used to be out of this old reliable unit you could go to every other year? That's yeah, that's a lot of unintended consequences are coming people's way. Which, which, which and I love how the commission, I gotta throw this in. I love how the wildlife commission didn't do it immediately. They said, let's do it in 2028 to give people a chance to to hear about this coming. They, but those commissioners won't even be commissioners then. They don't they made the decision and then they get to walk away, and new commissioners are gonna deal with all the the complaining and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Yeah, well, well, and plus it does it in a way it doesn't really matter, Scott, because it whatever you put you set in stone for the future is integrated right now. Like it's not like people are not idiots, they're not gonna wait to adjust to it, you know. So yeah, it's kind of a it's a it's a funky deal, and it's a yeah, it it changes the dynamic of elk hunting to me in Colorado, some.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

And I think the state, the you know, like there was on this draw working group, they called it, there was a lot of CPW people on it. You know, it wasn't near as many just public people like when I was on it back in 1997. I think they want they're so tired of hearing about point inflation, and I'll never draw unit two or two oh one and this, and I think they're just like tired of it, and they're just like, okay, we're gonna go half random.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Yeah, we're just gonna try to make everybody like hopefully we'll have less complaints by trying to make people look right.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

And I think they're unprepared. It's gonna be a lot of other complaints about mom and pop units that people could draw every year, every other year are just it's gonna change somewhat, somehow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

And I in a of course it's biased, but the guys that really do a lot of elk hunting, uh, that yeah, it's it's it's a challenge for for them. And I always thought, I mean, maybe I'm biased, Scott, but I always thought like for the amount of memories that I had hunting certain places like every couple years for a 10-year period, that's just so much more valuable to me than like the one. I mean, I'm by like I I was ne I've never been like a you know, outside of the you know, the specialty species or whatever, of course, like sheep and goats, you're gonna only do it once. But the other ones, I never really had that mindset. I always had the mindset.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Isn't that why you guys like you and I guided and outfitted? You know, because we can hunt all the time.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

It's more about going than it is each individual getting the you know biggest animal every time. Or I mean, I'm a trophy hunter, but I mean I don't want to give up my time in the field to only hunt once every 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Yeah, yeah. No, no, for sure. Well, dude, I I think even if you look at the results, Scott, like it's it's skewed, right? Like, I mean, I've you know, I've been I've hunted with guys in 44 for mule deer, you know, with a killer tag and the conditions were shitty that year, and it was tough. Yeah you know, and it's like, but that's your points are gone, you know. Yeah, you know, it's a it's a different different dynamic. So no good uh good deal on that. Um I I I I we only got probably about 10 more minutes or so, Scott. I want to touch on the more touchy like political stuff in Colorado. What's your thoughts on the status of the wolf situation? And then uh do you have any thoughts on this? Uh I think it's just a ballot initiative now, but this this uh constitutional right to hunt that's going forward. Do you have thoughts on those topics?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Yeah, I like the ballot initiative. Um back when I was really involved, I was the spokesperson for the outfitting association to the commission for a while, and I was on different, I was on the United Sports Council of Colorado as the outfitter rep. And I used to be really involved until our family, we had four kids, and you know, I had to cut back some. But sure. We tried, we talked about back when Roy Romer was governor back in the 90s, about getting a constitutional amendment to our state constitution, like Utah has, in a way where 75%, or no, six, what is it, 66%, two-thirds of the counties in Utah have to approve of a wildlife measure and by a two-thirds vote. Okay. So Utah is safe. They're not going to have this anti-hunters coming in and trying to stop their lion hunting, stop, you know, their you know, the spring bear, whatever. So, and it's funny, we were told back then, oh, that's not a problem. You don't need to worry about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Well, now here we have we have some guys, you know, running uh something similar, not exactly the same. I'd love to see the two-thirds thing in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, well the two things the two-thirds thing, so I understand that's very protective of like rural counties. Yeah, like it's protecting their kind of like almost like minority rights type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Yeah, it's like the it's like the U.S. Senate, right? Yeah, it's equal footing, state to state. So if you if you have to run something, if something has to pass by a vote of the people by two-thirds and in two-thirds of the counties, sure, you're not gonna have these 14 Denver metro counties running our lives.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Yeah, yep, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

I'd love to see something like that added to it. Um, but I'm just but yeah, if we can get uh something anything's better than nothing, that we're gonna protect our hunting and fishing, that would be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Yeah, no, I gotcha. Yeah, and I've had a couple discussions with people like you know, they say it's not like the silver bullet or whatever, but it's like another thing that people who are trying to yeah, you know, trying to to beat up hunting and and hunting opportunity in Colorado, now they have to deal with that if it were to pass. So yeah, no, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

And what was the other thing you mentioned beside the ballot?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

It was wolves. What's what's how can I forget? What's the stat I dude? How do you forget about wolves, man? Is it it's like is it that big of a failure that that it's not even on Scott Limmer's mind anymore?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

It's not on my mind near as much. I mean, now that we have the director of the Wyoming Game and Fish as our director of U.S. Fish and Wildlife, and he said, no more bringing wolves in from Canada, you didn't get permits to, you know, like if I'm a hunter and I want to bring in an item or an animal on the sighties list, you know, which is convention for international trade and endangered species, like say, I mean, I'm not going to tell you lions and elephants are endangered, some of them are threatened in certain areas, but you have to have a permit to bring that animal to the U.S. when it's here's Colorado. Colorado doesn't even consult, you know, and get permits to bring wolves across the board, an international border. And I love this guy who shut that down. I mean, because the western states are not giving Colorado wolves anymore because our program is for it has turned into such a crap show. Right. Um, you know, I think if we had the wolf vote right now, it might fail. I think we'd I think it would you know I think I mean we lost by what a half a pro half a percent. Yeah, it was like 50 and a half to 49 and a half, yeah, or something like that. It was very close. I think we'd we'd win it now. But yeah, I mean, I have friends in North Park and ranchers up there, release their land and stuff, and they're struggling with, you know, there's the few wolves that are around are having litters.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

So it's not like it's a zero problem, especially for agriculture, but it has not affected the hunting yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Right. Well, what but it it is crazy though, Scott, for how few wolves there are in Colorado for how high the conflict on livestock is. Oh yeah, that's even like I kind of expected that, but I didn't expect it at this level. Like, I mean, at least I mean, I don't know the exact data, but it's like more than half the wolves that are there are conflict wolves already. And you're talking about the population.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

This is not Idaho or Western Montana. We have six million people in this state, maybe seven. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

And all the valleys are settled with farms and ranches and things of that nature, other than in the wilderness area. So what did they think was going to happen?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

I Yeah, I mean, dude, that that part of it uh is like the part that makes me say, like, you know, the the guys that have the extreme view that this is just like an attack on hunting or an attack on rural people or whatever, it it makes me believe that narrative, Scott, because I I find it hard to believe that somebody who's even if they're you know a wolf-specific scientist, uh, you know, and e maybe they're left leaning or pro wolf leaning or whatever, but but I have it hard to believe that they would have not noticed that beforehand. Like, hey, this ain't the Frank Church. This isn't, you know, that there's no valleys that don't have people and cattle in them.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

Yeah, and I like I I I I'm on a the email list. For the updates on the Mexican wolf introduction in New Mexico and Arizona. And it's a crap show. I mean, they're having to bait these wolves away from livestock and other private property areas. They're having to, it's just the millions and millions of dollars. It's just insane, insanity. I mean, it's they're baiting them away. They're they're having to, you know, remove some of them at times, they're having to transplant them. I mean, the hands-on management of this is so intensive, it's just it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Yeah, I mean, what why don't why don't you just have like some wolf rehab centers and in in cages and in that and just have that instead? It'd be way too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

I mean this is not the Yukon in Alaska, right? You know what I mean? It's just there's I mean, I I love biodiversity and having all the animals on the landscape where possible. Where where it's feasible, right? Right. But there's Colorado is uh not the most feasible for this stuff. Yeah.

unknown 1:07:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

Yeah. Well, I guess the the silver lining is uh I mean it doesn't take it doesn't take away the fact that it's been a debacle and a waste of money and a lot of stress and anxiety, particularly for certain like that's the thing, that's the shitty part, right? It's like there's certain individuals that it's like affecting their day-to-day life for for really no for no benefit, and that's that's shitty. Um but the silver lining is maybe it's kind of snuffed out the momentum of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

So yeah, one of my guides actually is taking a job as a range rider for a rancher in the off in the off season, and uh they've got all these grants and money to do all this stuff, and it's super expensive. Why are we why are we doing this? I mean it just yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

I I saw that I saw that recent article, the one that got shot on the Nottingham. Yeah, I don't you know, you caught that one, and I I love Susan's uh quote. She said, you know, they asked her about the guy, I think they've kept the guy anonymous or whatever. And her quote was the guy was doing exactly what I pay him to do, protect to protect my cows. Like, you know, and and uh uh I know her. She's kind of uh if you're gonna pick a fight with a rancher in Colorado on the wolf deal, like she's probably the wrong one, you know. But uh um, and I'm and I mean that in a good way. She's somebody that's pretty protective of you know her heritage and stuff. So yeah, I thought it was kind of an interesting article. But Scott, tons of good stuff, man. Uh, thanks for coming on. Let people know where they can follow you, your outfitting business, your Instagram, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

Yeah, well, we have a website, you know, ComancheWildernessoutfitters.com. I don't have a large social media prep uh presence, but I do have an Instagram account, Eliminator. Like my last name is Limmer, so I put an E E-L-I-M-M-I-N-A-T-O-R. Uh misspelling of Eliminator, but it has an extra M in there because that's my name, uh Limmer. So yeah, you can follow me there. Um and of course, my email is uh the word hunt and then the underscore line and the word Colorado at yahoo.com. Good deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate your time in.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

All right, good seeing you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

If you enjoyed this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliffe.com. Go there, and it's going to be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I got, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer and the membership site, all the details are there.