OVER A TWO DECADES Guiding Flat Tops ELK — Lessons Most Hunters Miss - Evan Koster

Evan Koster has guided archery elk hunts in Colorado's Flat Tops for over a decade. This conversation covers everything that actually matters going into an archery elk season — and plenty of what hunters think matters that doesn't.

Colorado is in a historic drought, and Evan breaks down what that means for where elk will be in September — it's not about elevation, it's about feed quality, and aspens are the answer. From there we get into how to search unknown country efficiently, why elevation and trailhead distance are myths that kill more hunts than help them, and Evan's counterintuitive wind rule: he doesn't think about it until he's within 500 yards. We dig into the stalk psychology mistake most hunters make, how to locate elk with a bugle using line-of-sight, how to read a bull's commitment level, and the one-sentence answer Evan would give any archer who wanted to kill more elk: take chances. We close on the honest reality of horseback elk hunting.

In this episode:
Colorado drought 2027 — what it means for elk distribution in September
Feed quality over elevation — why aspens are the concentration zone in a dry year
How to search unknown country vs. country you know
The elevation myth and the trailhead distance myth — both cost hunters elk
Wind: the 500-yard rule and why most hunters have the psychology completely backwards
Bugling as a two-way radio — why line-of-sight matters for locating elk
When to move on from a spot and when to go back in close
The one thing Evan would change about any archer to make them more successful
Horseback elk reality — "don't, unless you're already into horses"
Booking 2027 hunts with LKS Outfitters now

Guest: Evan Koster — Lead guide, LKS Outfitters / Flat Tops Wilderness Guides.
ftguides.com
https://www.instagram.com/flattopswildernessguides/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Like a lot of these things we're touching on right here, Cliff, I think they're just preconceptions. They're based on stuff people have read in forums or they're bannering about on Facebook. It isn't shit that they've seen out in the field. And I would encourage you to like make decisions based on shit that you've seen out in the field.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Evan, good to have you back, dude. So uh last time I had you on, it was it was only what like a month and a half ago or so. We talked about New Zealand, but today we're gonna we're gonna focus back on archery elk hunting. Um you were always one of my most popular guests on this front. And dude, I I not to like rehash it over and over again, but I think the reason is Evan is it resonates with people that you're you're doing the type of archery elk hunting that is accessible to people. You know what I mean? And I think that's I think that's why uh there's so much interest in uh having you on, and and you're always good at answering those questions, dude. So we'll we'll jump right into that subject. I actually I say that, but uh my first question is actually gonna be on on uh bear bear hunting, because I had a couple of questions recently, and the whole fall, the whole fall bear hunting seems to be getting a little more popular every year. Uh, do you have thoughts on like well, I guess like what are current conditions right now and that sort of thing? And do you have thoughts on how that's gonna affect bear hunting in the fall?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Uh yeah. So if if you've been living under a rock, Colorado is is in a historic drought. I mean, in my 38 years, I've never seen it as dry as it is today. Um pretty unprecedented. Um, and there's gonna be a lot of effects on on hunts uh for for all species, really. Um as far as as far as bears go, like just riding around here now, it like this tends to be it's it's hard to be predictive on mass production and berries, but we try, and right about now tends to be when you start to see some of that, right? Um looking at the service berry, it's non-existent. Looking at choke cherry, it's basically non-existent. Yeah, and we've yet to see any growth on on uh the the oaks yet either. So I'm a little, I mean, I don't want to be doom and gloom, but um uh there's not, I don't think, gonna be a lot of feed out there for those bears. Another thing I've noticed though, like looking way back over the years, is that there isn't necessarily direct correlation between moisture and mass production, especially on the acorns, right? Like there it seems like some of that is just cyclical um and not directly correlated to to summer moisture. Um, so my hope would be maybe we get some maybe we get some acorns and at least save a little bit of the hunt.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah. The the berries look poor though. Yeah, I got you. Man, dude, it's such an interesting subject because once I I feel like I get it figured out, like based on this stuff, and then you'll get these, like you're saying, it there's anomalies, yeah. Yeah, you get this anomalous, like okay, it seemed dry and there there was a shitload of acorns. Yeah, and then another year it seems wet and you don't have it. And then you know, there's a part of me, Evan, that when it's when it's like this, uh I'm sure just like you, I mean I'm not living there now, so I'm not seeing it, but I'm sure it would be unprecedented unprecedented dryness relative to my history in Colorado too. Um, there's part of me that thinks, okay, well, maybe that's a good thing, because if I can find good fruiting, maybe there's choke tray somewhere, maybe there's acorns somewhere, then all the bears will be concentrated there, but I don't know because the other thing is if there's just none, then the things get dispersed everywhere, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

You know. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I I think that's kind of a 50-50. I mean, I'm sure when we dig into to archery elk, we'll we'll talk about this drought too. Um, and I've always liked drought as it applies to to archery elk because of what you're talking about, that concentration. Um, we'll we'll see with the bears. They gotta have something to pull them into this kind of brushy elevation band. If if there isn't enough feed in the grass, um sorry, dude. Yeah, all good. Yeah, uh they've gotta have some reason to make that migration off the tops and down into the brushy country. You know, if there's no feed, I don't I don't think it matters if there's a little spot of good feed, like the bears just won't be there, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, no, I I hear you. Do you have any thought? Uh, somebody asked me this, and it's weird because I had recent history with it. I have never in the fall focused on the bears in the high country, you know, like up high, but you ever notice that you see them up there? You you see them up there, like it seems like late October into first rifle season, you'll you'll see them way up high, and uh, and it's weird. Like, I'll see Evan where they where they're where they're ripping up trees or they're pushing rocks and stuff. Um I do you think there's any any like what the the reason that I I don't just have a straightforward answer of like hey, just hunt the low canyons, it's just better, higher bear density, all of that. And so that's my intuition on it. But then last year during rifle season, well, I was I was hunting one of your camps with some guys. Uh, we killed like a giant fat bear, and there was quite a bit of bear sign up. What's that up at 10,000 or so, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah. Do you do you have any thoughts on that? Uh I'm with you. I mean, I I see them, I I know they exist up there in that stuff, and um, and oftentimes big bears. Um I I think it just comes down to um you know the your ability to target them, right? And like just the density. Um, when you have mass production in the low country in that eight to nine thousand, the density of bears is much higher than what the the the densities up there on on the tops are. Um and it's just like uh it um it's suited to glassing, it's it's just like uh it's a hunt that's set up for success. Um whereas hunting the tops, man, you you kind of have to luck into one a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Um yeah, yeah, I I think that's a good way to put it. And and that's what happened. Like when we were in that camp, I I knew we were gonna kill a bear at least one, because there was like there was a bear just cruising those living there, and it's just like a matter of time, right? But I've also hunted the exact same topography, just slightly adjacent areas where if I was looking for a bear, it like you may not see one for 10 days, yeah. Yeah, you know, so yeah, it's it's kind of a it's I I I would I would agree, agree wholeheartedly with you on that. Um, dude, archery elk with the dryness. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, concentration, right? Just what we were talking about. Um, I have always like celebrated dry years as this is gonna be a great September elk hunt. Um, because what it does is just it, ma'am, you and I have talked about it before. The flat tops are awesome because they're such phenomenal habitat, but they're they're they're awful because they're such phenomenal habitat, right? Elk can be throughout. Um, in a year like this, um, you know, rather than 90% of the range being suitable for elk, um, maybe maybe 50 or 60 percent of the range is suitable for elk. And so you just got higher densities of elk um, you know, on the on the land or higher densities of elk in in um kind of predictable places, right? Yeah, um, and when I'm talking about predictable places here in our our topography in our country, um the the aspens really turn on. Um that deciduous cover allows enough sunlight to get through to grow grass and photosynthesize, but shades it enough that it stays moist in there. And so there's yeah, there's abundant feed even in a dry year. Um, where you're not gonna see elk are you know up above timber line and that high tundra stuff. I mean, that's a crispy mess up there already in July. Um, and and come September, it it's it's gonna be dirt, you know. It's so um, you know, maybe uh elk uh at slightly lower elevations than than normal, um, you know, in the drainages, in the aspen conifer interface. Um, and and really the thing to focus on is just um is feed quality, you know. Look at the grass, it it should be green and moist to the touch, you know. Uh they don't eat that tall yellow shit. They they they like the tender green stuff. And if you're finding that, you're gonna find elk.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah. I I I it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's like you're so water heavy. And I think I dude, I I mean, we're talking about the flat tops, but dude, I think it applies to most of these big wilderness areas in Colorado. Like you have an abundant, like maybe the big picture is that you have an abundance of summer, you know, spring, summer, fall habitat, but most places in Colorado, the limiting factors that the you know the winter range is developed, right? Yeah, so so you so you have that, and so you're naturally gonna have like pretty you know extra habitat for elk, and then this this limits them, but it it's not the water limiting them, it's the feed. I think you're right, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Um you know, I often get talking to talking to drop camp hunters and stuff, uh everybody's focused in on the three, you know, on feed, water, and security, and they're they're trying to find how that lays out on the map. And I usually tell people to disregard all of that, like forget about that. You need to just find elk and hunt them where they are, sure. Um, and um in a year like this, with with true drought, um, suddenly it is a thing that that you need to search for. You need to search for the good feed in in order to find elk.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, yeah. And you and it man, it's because I had Scott, I had Limer on, I don't know, two, two, three weeks ago. And what's interesting is his perspective is that I guess in a way I would summarize it as he doesn't see a big difference between dry and wet years in his country, but his country's all that lot, they don't really have the aspens that we do. Yeah, it's all that lodge pole stuff. Yeah, um, I wonder if that's not the it's not that's not the difference, you know what I mean? Is it's just that you know they they're they don't have like that those different like levels of vegetation that that you guys have that's in the San Juan's, it's in a lot of the big the the other areas in Colorado, you know. Um, but no, I I uh I like it, man. I uh you know the aspen deal and all that. Do you think it affects the deer at all? Man, good question.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Like, like as it applies to September or or Yeah, just hunt just hunting, yeah, hunting season. Man, um, I'm sure their summer range is impacted, you know. That's that that stuff, that high alpine above timber line stuff is is poor. Um yeah, I'd say probably the same thing. They're probably pushing into the timber a little more, they're probably using the aspens more, um, and and less of the high country out in the open, out in the willows type stuff.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Um isn't it isn't it freaking crazy how those big deer they just they're like not there and then they are.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah. I thought I mean my theory on that in the flat tops, like when people um you know, everybody watches videos of of um above timber line archery mule deer hunts, and it's the epitome of of deer hunting for a lot of guys. Um, it doesn't really exist a whole lot in the flat tops. Um, even though we have some of that, you know, that high country tundra, I think for the most part our giant bucks are are living in the aspens year round, you know, and then and then making a big migratory push to go find dogs.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're uh you're right, and it can it can kind of be like people that try to hunt it the way that they see it depicted, like focusing on the bait, like you can find deer that way, but it's not like it's not like you know, some other areas and because you know it's it's weird, Evan, because when I was like doing you know, over there goat hunting in the maroon bells or or stuff like that, I would see bucks in the basins all the time, yeah. You know, and I'd be like, wow, like maybe I'm missing them over in our country, and then I would try and I couldn't find them. Yeah, you know, they just there's it's different behavior, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Um again, it's probably that like or potentially that proximity of the aspens, they've got that, yeah. Um yeah, right there, and uh yeah, I think they're using it. It makes it really hard. Um you know, like our our high country rifle tags, it's it's impossible to scout for one of those, yeah. Um they they just aren't living out in the open, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, it's different, like a different deal, you know. Um, I think maybe maybe also there's like a lot of a lot of that that topography that plateaus, you know, those meadows, you kind of like if they are hanging in a meadow, which I used to see some bucks like hang in the meadows in velvet, but you have to be in the meadow to see them, you know what I mean? You can't you can't meadows 200 yards long, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like you gotta know, you gotta know they're there. And I I I remember a couple specific hunts where I knew where some bucks were, and the minute archery elk hunters came in, they moved. They yeah, they moved, yeah. And so it'd be very frustrating that way. It it's uh that's a that's a tricky one. And I'm I'm embarrassed to say this, but I was always transparent about it. Like, remember the like we had some good old, good old days with killing big big deer, and and people would ask me, like, oh, like like what what's your trail camera strategy, or like you know, where like you know, like how did you scout that buck? I'm like, dude, I never saw that buck. I like no, I don't think any of us did. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, no, it's with with deer, it's just um it's zones, you get to know the zones that matter. Um, and uh yeah, uh unfortunately, yeah. I mean, we we did we live the glory days of of of deer hunting. I don't think it's just here in our units either, I think it's kind of statewide. We just trend towards a little bit of a decline in quality. I mean, the population's still there, but um the the 108, you know, when somebody calls and said he needs a hundred and eighty inch buck, I'm like, man, me too, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it can happen, it can happen in any of those in any of those years.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

It's it's just it's shifting. Colorado's deer hunting has has shifted a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, yeah. But dude, you know, across the highway there in 44 too, like there's a lot of like I don't say misinformation, it's like miss, it's like a the expectation there is that guys know all the deer that are that are there, but that shit's so it's kind of like the all that timber above you know, all the high the higher elevation stuff. There's just thick hell holes, man. You know, like the big deer just get killed when they come out, you know. I I know there's some guys that figured our archery out there and stuff, but in general, it's like guys I mean, guys know they've been hunting a year after year, but that there's so much unknown, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yep, yeah, which is cool, or it's a it's a fun thing about uh deer hunting this kind of topography is it's you kind of never know, you know, even after I gave this big speech on declining quality. Um, we still see annually, you know, we still see one or two just absolutely world-class bucks. Um you don't know when your ticket's gonna get pulled on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think part of that, I don't know your perspective on it, but you know, that Pitkin, Eagle, Garfield County stuff, deer can get big fast. Yeah, yeah, you know, and so I I think that's the the magic of it, right? They can retain a lot of they can bear a lot of pressure, but if one gets three, four years old, if he if he if he got the right phenotype from his dad, I think I'm using the right term, uh, he'll be gigantic, yeah, you know. So um, but but yeah, no, the the deer hunting can be, it's like, yeah, it's like Easter egg hunting almost, you know. He's kind of but uh on the on the archery elk stuff, um, this may be a tough question for you, Evan, because because you know the areas pretty well that you hunt, but do you do you scout much or do you have thoughts on people who are scouting in you know in the summertime?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, so not in the traditional, you know, trail cam sense that we were talking about in regards to deer. Um, nor do I really advocate that. I I think at least as it applies to archery elk, um, they're moving a lot between July and mid-September. Like, like where you spot a bull now, um you know, it he might be in the same county in September, but he's certainly not going to be on the same ridge. Um and so while it's fun to go look at elk, um I think scouting should be more used more as a tool um to learn the land, not the animal, if that makes sense. Like to figure out vantage points, to figure out um how long does it take me to hike from here to that next basin, um, to get familiarity with um the country more so than finding the elk. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Um, sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Um, or or you know, maybe even maybe even finding elk, but I think you can kind of hamstring yourself if you know you you find some elk in July, and then that's where you plan to be September one. Um uh it it just at least in our country, they're they're moving too much and it doesn't directly um translate.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah, it can it can kind of throw you off too. Because I bet you if I went with I I bet you if I went with you right now and I was like, hey Evan, I I want to go ride around on a horse and I want to see 50 bulls over the next eight days, you you could do it.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah, those are not the areas I'm gonna be hunting in September, yeah. Um and so you gotta keep that in mind. And I'm I'm not saying you should sit on your ass and not scout either. Um, it's a great time to just get in the mountains to get comfortable with your gear, uh, to get in shape, to to learn your unit uh like the back of your hand, um, and become comfortable in it. Um it just, you know, like I said, in our country, there isn't there, there's too much movement um for you to make your your hunt plan based on your scouting. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Do you know um, and I think this plays into that a little bit, Evan. I've been doing these uh these elk hunting seminars in Wyoming, you know, dude, and they're they're crazy fun. Like I I need to I need to talk you into coming out for once because uh it's kind of nice. We have we usually have two or three different instructors, including myself, and everybody has a little bit different perspective, right? Because we're not all hunting the same areas and that sort of thing. But one thing that comes out every every time I do one of these with guys, and it's across guys with very different, you know, backgrounds. Some some have like literally never pissed in the woods, some of them have elk hunted quite a bit, but we'll go do a mock stock that takes a half day, you know, four or five hours or whatever. And universally, people will tell me, oh man, if I saw that bull, I would have, I would have never done it. Like, like they they don't they don't perceive like they there's this perception issue of like, hey, the elker up on that ridge, I don't know if it's gonna take me an hour or if it's gonna take me like two days. Yeah, you know, I think it's hard for people to calibrate that, dude. And I think I think like what you're getting at with stalking, like learning the country, you can at least get it, you can kind of get a gauge of that. Does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, I mean, it makes the map real, right? Getting out there and getting boots on the ground make the map um it yeah, it all looks so small on a computer screen, and um, and actually just getting out there in the field and moving around it gives you an idea of what you're capable of, what the timing's like, what um yeah, yeah, I think it's important.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, dude, I guess a question I have for you, I I didn't tee this up to you, so it might be you might have to think about it for a moment, but like when you think about all the rifle and archery stocks that you've done that are successful, and I said use stocks broadly, like could be just locating bulls with your bugle and then finding them and calling them in. But are they uh are most of them like pretty long duration deals, like three, four hours? Uh, do you do you find or or do you do a lot? Do you kill a lot of elk um that you've camped close to, or is it mostly like you're stretching?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah, it's mostly a stretch. Yeah. For sure. And I mean, this is something I talk about with with um drop. Camp hunters all the time, right? Is there isn't one tied up like your your camp shouldn't be on the X. Um you you should be tramping out to go find elk, you know. Um, and uh yeah, no, it's usually a stretch, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah, it's do you remember Ron? Ron who used to hunt with us? Old guy, last name, uh Ron and Jan. Maybe it wasn't oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they were there there the some of the originals, you know what I mean? Yep. Um, he uh he was pretty old at the time. I hope he's I hope he's still still kicking around. But that guy, particularly Ron, who was the older of the pair, they had some spots they would hunt really close to camp. But they were I would say that on average, you know, Evan, I think they were probably triple, triple or not more successful than our average guy. You know what I mean? And every bull I packed out for Ron, and man, I apologize if I'm pretty sure that's his name, but every bull I packed out for him, I was admittedly kind of agitated at how long the freaking ride was. You know, he would get he would get places where I'm like, dude, how the hell did you get up here? And he'd say like the craziest shit to me, man. He'd have like a he'd just like go up and lay in a tarp for one night. And I don't mean like I don't mean like uh you know uh uh I dynema 400 tarp. I mean like blue Walmart tarp. You know what I mean? Yeah and but he would that's he killed all his bulls that way, yeah you know what I mean? Like he he would do big long hikes, not like but they were they were I mean I'm hesitant to say I'm hesitant to like pound on that because I think some people would construe it that like he was just randomly walk run like he would just go hike 20 miles a day, like it was it was directed, like I'm gonna go hunt yeah, does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, totally. And no, yeah. If I look on my hunting experience, it's it's usually a long uh I got at a first rifle bull last year where we we started out kind of dead nut center of the flat tops wilderness area, yeah, and we ended up closer closer to Meeker than to gypsum, right? Like we we crossed we crossed several game units, um, and uh um and killed a bull. And and that is that is common. Like, I think just a willingness to like I've said this before in talking to you, and I'll I'll continue to say it, it's my gospel, but being being willing to just go where the elk are, to to take that bird in hand, right? You've spotted elk, you know where elk are, you must go. It doesn't it doesn't matter how far and and and um kind of living and dying by that will make you a lot more successful.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Sure, yeah. I think a lot of it is apprehension. I can maybe reflect on my own development as a hunter. I think a lot of it is just not knowing what's doable and what is, yeah, or what what's doable and what's not doable. Um I think that's I think that's a real thing. It's in I think probably a lot more capable than we think than a lot, you know, the average guy thinks they are. Um it's almost more of like a it's almost like a mental like it's like a mental thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Like, well, it's gonna be dark when we get over there, and I I don't I've never been over there before. So how are we gonna um yeah, you'll figure it out, you know, or or I guess kind of try to prep yourself. But again, back to the scouting thing in the summer, get comfortable moving around in the dark, you know. Um uh because you don't want your fears to to be the thing that keep you from trying, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Which you had that you always had that though, Evan. I remember like the first hunch you guided for me, you were the guy that would come back at like two in the morning smelling like campfire smoke with like a you know, um, yeah, and uh dude, maybe maybe you had a unfair advantage because you're you're you've you've always spent time in the mountains and you're comfortable with that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, but so yeah, use your scouting season for that. Go get comfortable um moving around at night, go explore a new basin that you've never dropped into and you don't know if you can hike back out of it. Go um um, yeah, go bang your knees up, you know, and um because during hunting season, it it if if if you have apprehensions and fears and uncertainty, um, you're just not gonna operate at peak performance, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

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SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

But but you have to do it, you have to like do it once and realize like oh, it's not that, yeah, you're tired, but it's not that big a deal.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, all your bet you've got food and water, you've you've you've got warmth, you've yeah. Um, you know, with modern um, you know, with on X, with with modern navigation, you're never lost. And there was a time, like even in my time guiding for you, sure where getting lost was a little more real. Um uh yeah, I I don't I don't know. You you do need to become comfortable with it or it's it's gonna limit your success.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, uh, no, for sure. I don't know why it popped in my head, but I remember one time being pissed at you. Um, and it, you know what it was? I mean, I don't know why I got pissed about it, but you killed a bull late at night, stayed out with the guy till like two or three in the morning, and then you came. Sure, like yeah, it well, no, no, I mean that's all good. We didn't we didn't have like the communication we we had back then, but um when you came back, there was a tree in the trail, and you cut that fucking tree right in the middle of the trail. You remember that? I don't know why that pissed me off. I think it's because like I was I was going out. I mean, now I'm like, well, dude, it's like I was trying to stagger home, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like three in the morning. He probably wasn't like thinking about cutting the tree wide enough so Cliff is like not irritated by it the next day when he's hunting or whatever. But I I guess the reason I brought it up is because it's uh um I'm over I'm over it now, just so you know. Hey, thanks, man. But it's like one of those things I'm like, oh yeah, like not only did they stay out till stay out till three, but they had to cut their way back out through after that. It was like still survived, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not not that big a deal. But um, do let's get into uh tactics on on the archery front, uh Evan. Do you uh I get this question a ton and it's very hard for me to answer because I feel like it's maybe a situational, but uh do you depend on glassing or vocalization more for finding elk when you're archery hunting?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

I think there's two phases of finding elk, Cliff. I think one is just locating an area that elk live, right? And and the other is a little more, you know, the morning of the hunt in the dark, where is he right now? Finding elk. Yeah. Um, I think for just figuring out areas that elk live, you're far more productive to do a glassing, right? Um and even during even during the season, like if you're if you're not operating in an area like I am where I'm like really familiar with the specifics of the area, um, maybe you're kind of eating tag soup your first time in there, um, and using using glass and just figuring out where elk are. Um, I think it gives you glass gives you just like um a much broader sense of where elk are, right? I think to try to do it with boots and a and a bugle tube um would would quickly exhaust the guy.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, it's like an efficiency thing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Um when when I use vocalizations to locate elk is kind of when I'm operating in an area where I already know there's elk. I'm just trying to get a specific, you know, pinpointed location of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah. And do you uh like when when you're doing that, um the what so I well first I want to I want to cover this because a lot of people will spay say specific to the broader region that you hunt that elk don't vocalize, right? I I'm sure you hear it, uh, you know, and all that, but uh it's not the only place. People tell me that elk don't vocalize in the salmon river system because of the because of the wolves, you know, that you hear this kind of thing all the time. Do you what's your perspective on that? It's not true, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

And yeah, I I can tell you because I've lived it. Um I don't have, you know, I've never stepped into um a limited entry unit in Arizona and and listened to them bugle down there. So I don't have, you know, I don't know how it differs from elsewhere. But uh here it seems like bugling really relates to the social group of elk that you're dealing with, right? Like a raghorn bull that's by himself is probably not gonna bugle, right? If he's like, yeah, there's no cows around, he's not he's not following another group of elk, he's just out on walkabout. That bull's probably not gonna bugle. Uh, maybe a bull with two or three cows is not gonna bugle, but a bull that has got a harem that has got six, eight, ten cows bugles, right? Yeah, where wherever it is he calls home. Um, and I I think too, maybe um like I I hate to, I think we give elk a lot more credit than they deserve. Like, I put them on a pedestal too, but we're hunting like three and four-year-old bulls here. To assume that um they have become accustomed to like um man-made vocalizations and um like they they know the whole gig, I think is giving them way more um um yeah, their brain, their brain's only like that big that sort of logical thought. Um and I I think as long as you have like close proximity and you have a bull that has cows, um, he's gonna bugle. Like it's um he he is um yeah, adapted to that.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, dude, I I I I agree, dude. And and I get I get people that that say no, but like I I remember like hunting. I mean, like the in Idaho, the some of those river systems, a lot of people will be like they do not bugle because of wolves. And it's like, well, that's interesting because as long as I get real close, because you know, some of those units you can hunt in rifle season. Uh, you know, you can hunt the last two weeks of September, you know. Um, if you get close, they do bugle. Yeah, like they they still do. Um, and so it's it's interesting. I'm I'm I'm with you on that. I don't want I I wonder if it's not if part of that is not just people they're making vocalizations and they assume that an elk that's a thousand yards away should vocalize back. Yeah, just you know, or that or or that we're gonna hear them.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

And out on a rim on a canyon or a basin rim, and you can see all the way across it, and you bugle and you hear it echo off the other side, and there's no response, and you know there's gotta be elk in there somewhere, therefore, elk don't bugle. Yeah, yeah. It's just that's not how it works. You you you you need to be closer in order to to trigger something.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Sure. Do you uh, in terms of the vocalizations you use to to locate them, like if you're in, like you know, like hey, I've figured out some elk, there's somewhere in this half of this basin or whatever. Uh, what what kind of vocalizations do you use?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, well, if I'm trying to get a bowl to respond, I'm trying to locate bugle. Um, it's just a high ringing sound, and it it's it's maybe uh you don't want to drag it out too long because you want to cut it off to a point that you can then hear, yeah. Um, so just like uh just a high-ringing bugle that's that's maybe three or four seconds long without a whole lot of junk, you know, no, not a bunch of grunting and chuckling on the end of it, just just uh just a rip, you know, a high ringing rip.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Sure. It's it's interesting what you said. I don't want us to to gloss over it. It's like important that you stop so you can actually hear them. Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah. And you and you get everybody around you to shut up and stay still.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Often that response is as soon as it hits his ear, right? So yeah, it takes sound a second to travel, but as soon as it hits that bull's ear is when he um it makes his response. So yeah, if you're dragging it out to a seven-second, eight second, ten-second bugle, um, you he could have responded and you just you just drowned it out.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah. Hey, have you ever uh I had I had Joel Turner on like maybe a month and a half ago or so, and he uses calf sounds for for locating elk a lot. Have you ever have you ever used cow or calf sounds?

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah, I mean the I guess why I bugle as a vocalization to locate elk is just because of the distance you're able to cover with it. Like yeah, um calf and cow sounds just don't like sometimes I'll I'll cow call through my tube to try to get one to bugle at you know 300 yards, 400 yards, whatever. Um but yeah, you're just not getting it just isn't loud enough, I don't feel, to get as much distance, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, yeah, which would make sense.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

It just it just carries. I mean, I think that's I I'm I I don't know that there's any like scientific proof of this, but I think that's why a bugle is like that high sound, because it travels so far, you know. Probably um, but uh yeah, it's it's interesting because he's very dependent on on calf sounds for locating elk. Uh and I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not something that I I have done very much of, you know. Um, and I think but I think that that your your reasoning makes sense. Well, what what factors um do you choose, Evan, when you're gonna local uh do uh uh locate bugles? Are you looking at your topography, looking at like like where you where you do it from?

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Yeah, yeah. So so hopefully, like I said, I'm not just like wandering around grid searching with a bugle tube, right? Yeah, um hopefully I'm already targeting an area that I know is holding elk with a bugle tube. Um I'll try to get um line of sight, you know, like if you think of a bugle as a as a two-way radio, like um you you need direct line of sight for it to really hit loudest to get a response. Um and and and so just you know, kind of walking around on a timbered hillside and bugling as you go, you just aren't covering that, you aren't covering that country effectively. You might be better off to step back from that hillside and call directly at it. Does that make sense? Like thinking about it as a um, yeah, well, like what it is, a sound wave. It it needs direct line of of sight to really be heard the best.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, I think it's kind of like uh I mean, I'm not I'm not gonna say that if I'm trying to locate elk with a bugle that as I crew, I'm not like I'm like, I'm only gonna vocalize from this spot, I'm only gonna vocalize from this spot. I would be lying, like I'm gonna vocalize in between two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know that you're covering a smaller area when you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's almost to me, it's almost analogous to glassing, right? It's like I kind of want, I kind of have some this defined spots I want to get to. Yep, you know, for sure, for sure. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Yeah, for me, when I'm mapping that out, it's it's just areas that are gonna um project, you know, with direct line of sight to to to elke country.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah, yeah, it's almost like if you're e-scouting and you're putting your little your little like binocular tag on spots, you should have another tag for like where you want to bugle here, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, and a lot of times they're gonna be the same as the glassing points, yep. You know, yeah, so it it's uh yeah, I think it's one. I think the maybe the problem is is that it's back to the efficiency thing, right? If you get in the habit of like just vocalizing every 50 yards, you won't get anywhere, right? You know what I mean? Like you're gonna spend all the morning, like not you've only hit the same spot over and over again, really. Yeah, yeah. Yep. But uh, yeah. Do you have any other any other thought thoughts on like locating elk? And I I I'll throw in this because this is number one, one of the number one questions is like, when do you move, right? So, like you're locating elk, when do you just like pick up your shit and be like, this is not a good spot? You know, I'm I go go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Man, I've got a great story to tie this together. Uh last year, last year, mid-September hunt, like you know, kind of um muzzle loader. Um, on the first night of the hunt, we went to a place that I knew had elk. Um, and I at last light, or as it's coming evening, I know they're all on their feet. I bugled at the hillside. Big, big open bowl. I know sound projects well to all of it, and I didn't get a response. And when we went in that night, I I told that hunter, he's like, Well, so what are we gonna, you know, you thought that was the spot. What are we gonna do tomorrow? I said, We're gonna go back again. Um, but we're gonna check it close now. We we checked it far. Now we're gonna check it close. Um, and uh we went back in the next morning and with morning thermals ripping down the mountain, we eased into the wind. Uh, we came into a meadow with a bull in it, uh, sat down and cow called a couple times and he killed him at five yards. That never had never bugled the night before, but I knew there was elk there and wasn't willing to leave it yet. Um, and uh, so I guess I would say that to sum up, I would say maybe one like preliminary check of the place, one thorough check of the place, and then I'm out.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yeah, yeah. And then and then, of course, you're gonna rate it by like if you if you know elk or that you've seen elk recently or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, if I had no understanding of the place whatsoever, I I don't even think I'd give that thorough check. I would just do preliminary checks until I found yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

So that's that's interesting. So let's say that you let's say I picked you up, Evan, and I'll give you this. I'll keep you in the same flat tops topography, but I moved you 20 miles to country you didn't know. What what would you do? What what would be your protocol and like how how long you're gonna stay in a spot before you just kept bumping to like a next basin?

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah, if if I was somewhere I didn't know, I mean uh continuously, yeah. Like like I said, I think there's two phases. There's there's finding elk in a broader sense, and then finding elk in a narrow sense. Um, when you're in that broad search for elk, it should be constant movement, constant effort until until you're on them, uh, without any attachment to a place.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Right. Do you uh well I was gonna say that that this would be maybe a little bit out of what you do, but I know that when you personally hunt, you move camps and and do that whole thing a bit. If you weren't if you weren't as capable as you are with horses, do you think that would change that at all, Evan? No.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

No, you would just camp real light and I'd I'd I'd uh I'd certainly hike a lot more, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got it and and like be willing another thing too. And I you know, everybody wants to e scout their backpack hunt and plan it all out beforehand, but I think just adaptability when when it comes to like that broader search for elk, um, being able to just kind of back out and maybe drive to the other side of the unit and look there, or maybe pull out from 11,000 feet and go hunt at 7'5. Um like like the ability to just totally bail on something, I think, is really valuable too.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah, it it's what you know what's interesting, I'm sure you still run into this is how many guys you'll run into in the on the trail or in town or whatever. And you'll be you'll get to talking about elk hunting at the gas station or whatever, and and maybe you say, like, oh yeah, you know, client killed one last week, or yeah, we we've we've been we called in a couple bulls, guy missed one, whatever. A lot of times the first question somebody will ask is like, what elevation were you at? Yeah, and if you aren't finding elk, it's always higher, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what is that about? Like, do you think that's just like missed, like, like a like a myth or something? Or like do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, um, good qu good question. It's you know what I'm talking about, right? Um, because elk exists at at all elevations in some way, shape, or form, right? Right. Um, and uh um uh yeah, good. I don't I don't have the answer to that, Cliff, but it it irritates me too. And um uh elevation is definitely not the factor that's gonna determine your success.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's really interesting. It's almost I think it might be human nature, Evan, because if I tell you at the gas station I call the bull in at 9,000 feet, then you can go back to on X and you can just rebuild at nine. Yeah, and it's total bullshit. I I think it's total bullshit. Yep, you you know, yeah um, but it's it it but I think it's just like a little, it's like a it's like a solid numeric number that we can key on, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Uh similarly, um uh distance from the trailhead is a thing. Um sure. I'm always having to talk to drop camp hunters about this. They're like, well, you know, you said you have a camp at 12 miles. I want that one. I don't want the one that's at seven miles in. Yeah, um, it um it's a number, it's it's a number, and and your distance from the trailhead in today's day and age with today's mapping, um, doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean, uh, it gets you a little distance from from you know roadside pressure and stuff, but it it isn't the the single factor that matters.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Um and it's it's kind of related to something that I noticed over the years too, like proximity to other people. It could be another drop camp, could be could be that you see other backpack hunters across the basin, and dude, how many times um did we like we would be where we could look across a basin, like see a camp, and they had no idea that there was elk all around them, right? Yeah, it's super common, regularly, yeah, yeah. It's like you and so now like you could see another hunter out there, maybe some guy who's backpacked in wherever in archery season. He's camped right there and he's got elk right underneath him, and now you have to go all the way over there and kill the elk literally next to the guy, not because you're an asshole, it's because he doesn't know, yep, yeah, you know, yep, for sure. It's it's wild, it's just like all this perspective. Because I think people do the same thing, dude. They see somebody else hunting and they're like, Oh, that's all over there, it's done.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah, yeah, blown it out. Um, yeah, yeah, totally. They're uh like a lot of these things we're touching on right here, Cliff. I think they're just like they're they're preconceptions that aren't based on, I mean, they're based on stuff people have read in forums or or um they're bannering about on Facebook. It isn't shit that they've seen out in the field. And um, I would encourage you to like make decisions based on shit that you've seen out in the field.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like it's also kind of rational too. It's like you're in your mind, you're like, well, that would make sense. Like the elk, the elk don't go, but I think people don't think beyond the fact of like, well, look, those elk are getting the their asses hunted off. So it's not like it's not like they can move away from that guy to some to some spot where there's no hunters for a 10 mile radius, right? You know, yeah. Yeah, they're just they're just doing what they can do. Um, you know, I guess one that relates to that, because I because I think people think this sometimes, and um sometimes I'm guilty of it. I have mixed feelings on it, but when do you when do you start thinking about the wind? Uh Evan, like like do you have a distance that you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 50:02

So I I've evolved on this over the years. Okay. Um, and um uh where I've arrived is that I'm a lot less um well I'm I'm I'm I don't think about wind. So first, just to answer that question, I don't think about wind a whole lot until I'm roughly 500 yards. Well that's a lot closer than I think a lot of people allow, right? Like if they're on the same hillside as elk, they're sure they're conscious of the wind and backing out of there. Um, and that that place that I've arrived is was you know rooted in experience. Um I just haven't I haven't blown elk out at that distance. And I think a lot of it, something to think about with wind is um just because it's blowing right to left here where I stand doesn't mean it's blowing right to left all the way to the bowl, right? It's gonna change directions three times on the way down, and it might be going the exact opposite direction where that bull stands. Um, and I think a lot of people cost themselves opportunities by um making a judgment call on the wind without ever trying to problem solve their way through it. I think you're better to keep that windicator in your hand and try to find a path, right? Yeah, yeah. Um switch switch aspects, get into that draw that's over there on the on the on the right and and see what the wind's doing there. Well, will it allow you to get down to him? Great, go. Um, yeah, uh, I think too often people just say, Well, wind's wrong. We'll leave them alone and try tonight. Like, like go figure it out. Um, go try to find a path. Um, because topography, man, the wind moves a lot in the mountains, and topography and cover and all um all kinds of things bounce that wind. And if you can find a little, if you can find a path, um, you're you're good. Um, certainly try. Don't just say the wind's wrong, I'm not going. Um, and likewise, get comfortable go getting to 500 yards of elk with a bad wind. You'll be surprised how tolerant that now that I've laid that out, you'll be surprised how tolerant they are of it.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, I think you're I think there's a lot to that, man. And because I think I mean, I'm I'm I've for sure been guilty of this. If you're always worried about it, which which most decent elk hunters like they understand that the wind is a thing, it's the one thing that matters. It for sure, it for sure matters, but if you're paranoid about it all the time from a distance, it it handicaps you on ever making a play, and that and that comes into the idea that you're yeah, I mean you're totally right, like mountain winds. There's almost always three wins between you and them, you know, there's that aspect. I uh I have seen elk uh blow off of hunters from like seven, eight hundred thousand yards, but I but but but I think it's like I think it's like situations though, like I remember a time where I blew elk out.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Um I'm I'm not gonna name specific spots, but you know this spot behind a prominent peak in our permit area, there's a big open meadow. Um that stretches, and when I say a meadow, I mean it's like a two-mile meadow. And one time there was elk out in the middle of it on a rifle hunt, bedded in the grass in the middle of a two-mile meadow. It was like, well, shit, how do we how are we gonna make this stock, right? Yeah, uh, and we came, we came at them with bad wind because it seemed like the best um cover. Sure. Um, and those elk blew out at like 600 yards, um, right, you know, before we were ever in rifle range. But thinking back to that situation, we were out in a flat, you know, essentially a pasture. We were out in a flat where wind was direct and there was a consistent wind between and there was no complication. Um, I think if you if you're in a place with trees and rocks and canyons and draws, it it buys you a little more um closeness.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's uh um I'm I'm with you on that. One thing, again, going back to these courses, I've realized why you you you learn a lot. That's why I gotta get you out for one of these because I think you have like a pretty unique, like all the stuff that you've learned over guiding for so many years, you're like, Oh, these guys are still figuring that out. But like one one thing that is interesting psychologically, Evan, is a guy, nine out of ten guys, when they go into a stock starting at say seven, eight hundred yards, they'll check their wind in that first 200 yards, getting closer to the elk. Well, what's that? And then put it in their pocket, dude. They'll they'll check their wind 15 times in that first 200 yards, and then the like the critical time, you know. You know, they say it's an archery stock or something, you're trying to get within 100 yards or something before you set up, or maybe you're trying to get even closer to actually shoot them. That last 150 yards, they'll they won't check their wind at all. Yep. You know, it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

It's it's an on on wind, like so often you plan your stock based on the wind, or or you know, it it keeps you from doing something you'd wanted to do. And I don't think that should be, I think you should just follow that little windicator around, and um, and that's what plans things, right? Like, yeah, um, and yeah, dude, the thing you're talking about where it's like we check wind once, oops, it's wrong. Um, it it should be. I struggled when I was doing my own personal hunting, I struggled with a bow in hand and a knocked arrow, um, uh using my windicator as much as I wanted to. So I started hanging shit on my bow, right? Um, yeah, okay. Uh you should always, always, always be checking it, you know, and adapting to it immediately. Um in your stock, it's like the one thing to just just keep doing.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Yeah, because like once you're in the zone, like then it it's like it's like everything, dude. You know, I I I notice it. Um I I've come to this conclusion, like, you know, when you when you get into multiple, you get like a lucky morning, you're into multiple bulls bugling, and like one one of them is just like coming in, right? And the other one, you're like, ah, screw it, like this one's coming in. I've gotten Evan where when I feel the wind hit the back of my neck, I'm like, even though this is the good one, fuck that one. I'm going to the other one. You know what I mean? Because I I've learned enough to be like, yeah, he's probably already gone. You know what I mean? Um, but it's hard, it's hard to like psychologically adjust to that. But you get into the zone there.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

If they think the takeaway on on wind and scent is at great distance, don't let it control your whole mindset. Sure. Um, don't stay out of a base and just but you know what I mean. Um at great distance, you you probably have um more um yeah, more tolerance than you think. And at close distance, it's everything. And check, check it like you check it like you check your uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Yeah, no, uh, no, I'm I'm with you. Um I I like it. And that's like something that yeah, it like continues to evolve as you go because it's like it's it's realizing that there's elk hunting's like that, right? It in a way it is kind of like it's like chess. Like if you never if you if you're never willing to risk anything, you just become although you think you're becoming a better hunter, you're actually becoming incompetent. Yeah, you're just becoming comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you just you just don't ever do anything, yeah. You know, so you have to be very wary about that. I think it's I think it's a little personality driven, you know what I mean? So some guys are naturally like, dude, there are guys. I mean, obviously, I'm not gonna say any names that I would view who you know, guided with with us, guided for me or whatever, who were kind of shitty hunters, you know what I mean? But they would kill stuff because they were just so damn aggressive. Yep. Yeah, you know what I mean? And it and it's like they were willing to accept the fact that they were looking like an idiot 80% of the time. Yep. You know, I mean it's like a real thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Uh honestly, Cliff, I think that's the biggest um uh, you know, if I could tell if I could change somebody as an archer, um, and uh just just make them more successful as a whole and had to do it in like one sentence. That's what I'd say is take chances, you know, like just take chances. And it's never uh like no, it's always a yes, and try and you're gonna spook elk and you're gonna you're gonna make a ton of mistakes, but you're gonna then build up like um you're gonna find these tolerances that I'm talking about, and you're gonna find that you're gonna build a skill set and you're gonna build a uh a system that works and you're gonna kill shit, but you gotta be willing to try first. And and I think there's a whole lot of guys, um, again, like looking back on the statistics of our our drop camp hunters, I can't tell you how often I hear, well, we saw some elk. Well, if you saw elk, why don't you get them in our tree range? You know, um, like that's unacceptable to me that you could eat elk and not have have done something about it.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

Um so dude, I I I wonder if this is not a symptom of media. I don't mean it isn't isn't negative, like it's just the reality. I can't tell you how much video I have from a GoPro, Evan, of me. I got a GoPro on my chest, and um there's a bull bugling, and I'm walking up, and I walk right into a cow and it and it jumps up and blows 20 elk out of the country, and I'm sitting there looking like an idiot. None of that video hits the internet. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like the only video that's gonna hit the internet is when the bull's coming in and the GoPro's on my chest and the guy shoots it, yeah, right. And so so it's like you don't see that, like the former is like more than half the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Yeah, like the fear of failure, too. This you know, black, like when we're talking about wind, um somebody will say, like, um, you know, the wind was wrong, so we didn't do anything about it. Well, like, yeah, go try, you know, let let um, yeah, go go try something. Um, try to figure it out, try a different approach, uh, swing way around them. Um, um it yeah, like a fear of failure handicaps people into just in action. And and or they you know, they glass elk up an hour before dark and they say, We'll go get them in the morning. Or um you you just need to be like uh a little bit more uh willing to try, willing to take a chance, willing to be risky, willing to push the envelope. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

All right, guys, and some of my content you're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. It should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's Cliff G and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. What uh what situations, Evan, on the flip side of this, are you willing to are you willing to wait a little bit or wait out a bull? Like, do you have a do you have a thought? Uh, I don't know, I'll throw a hypothetical at you, you know, bull bugling in his bed at 10 o'clock, nine o'clock. Like what what what what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of scared of, and this it applies to rifle hunting too. I'm kind of scared of bedded sites because in our country, and this is for sure topography related or like related to you know my mountains, yeah. In our country, they're just such difficult places to access. The the elk have set themselves in a fortress of of advantage. Um uh, so yeah, I that would be one case, you know, bedded elk um in our country. I usually leave them be.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Um you know, um yeah, but the let's dive into that a little bit because I know exactly what you're talking about, but people listening might not. And tell me if I'm wrong, Evan. Like most of the time I find that in that kind of area, elk they do not bed on like the edge of timber, like they they bed in these like real kind of shitholes, you know what I mean? Like and and it's like it's the wind, but it's also the noise, it's also just like you can't really keep track of them because you guys have swaths of timber that are like three miles wide, right? You know, I mean, is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

Or yeah, uh it's difficult to uh so it's in a it's a spruce fir woodland that's overmature and and tight with a lot of deadfall. It's it's um you know it's it's impenetra and impenetrable, it's pick-em-up sticks, yeah. Um, you can't be quiet in there. The elk aren't uh, I mean, when you hear elk moving through this stuff, you can hear it from 400 yards away. Sure. Um uh you can't be quiet in there. The wind is shifty in this in the spots that they bed, right? Um, and you can't see, you can only see 40 yards in front of yourself. So um it it's just really difficult to kind of plan a stock in there. And um uh those elk have set themselves in an area where they have the advantage, they're looking down their backtrack, they've got wind in their face, and wind's shifting constantly. Um uh it's just really difficult to convert, I've found. Um yeah, and so I try to catch them on their feet at the edges of that stuff rather than in the thicket.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Yeah, no, I hear you. Um, you know, another thing that people will will say, Evan, I want to I want to get your perspective on this, is uh you know, I think we're all on the same page. Obviously, there's like prime times, right? To be hunting, obviously, and be to be in the right spot or whatever. But uh what's your thought on um it like the nocturnal nature of elk? Do you think do what do you think people perceive that they're they're um that they they're more nocturnal than they actually are? Do you see much activity during the day? Do you think about that with your hunting strategy? Like what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Yeah, I mean, I uh I think they're fairly nocturnal in our country, but they also aren't um, you know, you find you find night beds all over the place, right? When you're out in the grassy meadows and see where they've just lingered out in a big open meadow. And I I think that's a common behavior. Um, but also when they want to, they can switch drainages overnight. And I've seen that behavior as well. Um uh what I what I like about our midday here, and as it lays out with our topography, this this heavy, dense bedding cover that I'm talking about, is that midday, if you've already figured out where elk were in the morning, they're still gonna be in that area come evening. You have them kind of corraled. Um, and that's really valuable intel because then you have all day to figure out okay, what's our strategy going to be to get on them? We know they're somewhere in here. Um, you have them corralled in the midday, and I think that's really valuable at night. That's not as much the case. There's a lot more um yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

I I see what you're saying. So if you see them in the afternoon, you hope that or you see them right at dark, you hope they're there the next day, but you feel like that's a lot less likely than you saw them bed in the morning, they're gonna be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Yep, a hundred percent. And and again, that's like built on experience, Cliff. I've I've had it go wrong so many times that I've said, Oh, we're gonna leave them for morning and they aren't there, that that I've I've come to not rely on that. Whereas the midday, um, leaving elk alone in the midday and and return it, they're they're gonna be there, you know. And I've seen that play out enough times to know it's do you guys always bring this up to me, Evan?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

Because I I I agree with you, uh, but a lot every Time I anytime I say anything related to that, a guy will say, Well, that's not true because I kill half the bulls I kill are going to water at 11 o'clock. Is that is that relevant to you? Have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

Uh I have. I've hunted some like pinion juniper country before, um, and killed elk in it in the middle of the day. And I think that's what you're I think when you get comments, you're getting comments from people that are not talking about like montane, yeah, spring spur. Um, it's it's it's um related to the environment. Yeah in the flat tops in midday, they are in a a type of vegetation that you just cannot, you you cannot successfully work them. Um, and I think something I don't doubt, I don't doubt they get up and walk to water. Um it but um it could be like right there, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just impossible to kind of plan it out. I know a guy um that lives in the Roaring Fork Valley not far from here, um, and he's in his 80s and he's still killing elk with a bow, which is okay. Um, but he hangs he hangs trail stands or excuse me, hangs trail cameras on on wallows and and stands, uh tree stands, and um figures out figures out wallows that are getting hit and sits tree stands and kills elk, right? Consistently with a bow in an OTC area. Um, I'm not saying my way is the way, it's it's just um it's just like a program that I've you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Yeah, no, no, and I and I and I think it goes to the fact that everywhere's a little bit different, Evan. Because I same deal. A lot of guys ask me about hunting wallows, and I never do, I mean, is it a big factor to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

No, no, it's irrelevant. I hardly even mark them anymore. Yeah, but uh it's it's you know, I'm not saying that it's not valuable intelligence to somebody that's gonna hunt with a different set of tactics than I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah, no, no, no, I I I hear you. Uh, which is interesting too, dude. I I I've had this conversation with guys, I've had guys that that are that say, like, oh man, I went hunting and you know, I found a spot where elk were coming to every day, but I couldn't figure out like a way to set up, and they're from the east coast, and they're like, Man, I wish I would have brought my tree saddle or whatever. And and part of me is like, Why didn't you? Like, I don't understand why. And it and it and I think it comes down to like a little bit of a cultural thing. It's like, well, I'm going elk hunting, so yeah, I can't I can't do that. It's like, well, what you're saying makes logical sense to me. I mean, you yeah, bring your tree stand next time or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

I think in today's day and age, right, with so much information out there and and uh so many hunters getting after it. I think if you're creative enough to like um not take my advice to to come up with your own tactics, um, I think I think you have an edge. You know what I mean? Um uh I I think creativity always wins.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. No, there's uh there's it it it always uh uh amazes me how many people get to the if they're if they're on Xers, you know, hardcore, they all get to the same conclusion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you know the onyx spots, right? Like every wilderness has got the onyx spots that everybody figured out is like these seven variables that they thought they were like figuring out the world's best alcohol. That spot, yeah, yeah. The that got like the onyx uh kind of holes, you know, that everybody ends up in. Um, so it's it's uh interesting, dude. Um, do let's talk about uh archery specific things that maybe you've seen guiding guys, Evan. Uh on the on the shooting front, the equipment front, whatever. Do you do you have thoughts like how guys can can prep better or or things they should think about on that front? Like this has come up a little bit. You guys have asked me, like, do you think guys should practice kneeling? You think guys should practice moving? Like, like, you know, you know how you get the you get the odd case where like I don't know, uh a bull comes in like just on fire, and then all of a sudden he's he's doing his little bark thing and he's just standing there 40 yards away, but the archer can't shoot him. But if the guy would just take a couple steps, he could shoot him. Um do you have thoughts on that stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Yes, and yes, your your your setup should be like you always need to maintain really light feet, the ability to adapt and shift and move. Um uh I hate this idea that okay, we're gonna set up here, meaning this is where we're gonna park it and we're gonna hide really good and we're gonna wait for him to come. Um, I I think you should maintain some lightness and adaptability in a calling setup. Um, hiding is always a no-no. Um, so again, like back to the sitting or crouching. Um, yeah, no, I tell guys just stand there. You know what I mean? If he can see you, um, he should already have an arrow in him. Right. Um you know what I mean? We we don't put a lot of thought into hiding. It's just kind of pick a tree, stay out in front of it, you know, rather than behind it in the in the branches, um, and um and and and get ready to shoot. One big tip I can give you that I see archers struggle with when we were talking about um rifle hunters before, um, setting, you know, getting prone for an elevated shot and not understanding that that angle's not gonna work. Something that archers do that's a a trap is you should point your hip to where you think the target is gonna appear, right? I see guys that'll sit with their back against a tree like this, expecting a bull from over, you know. Um, and it's you're never gonna be able to draw, make that motion and make it work. So if you can point your hip kind of in the general zone that you think the bull is gonna appear, it gives you shots, you know, to your left, uh quartering and out in front without having to make a big turn and move. Yeah, you got like on setup, point my hip, point my hip, point my hip. Um, that's that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:31

Yeah, it gives you like a little bit more of a forgiving like radius you can shoot.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

It can be a radius, exactly, instead of just one direction. Yeah, um, and man, on setups, the bowl never I always I always eat crow as a guide because um he never comes in the way I thought he was gonna, right? Yeah, it's always a surprise. And so as much as you can like set up with a range of motion uh and and different shooting lanes, that the better off you are. Yeah, um, so things like you know, like seated kneeling shots uh really handicap you there because you don't have that range.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

Yeah, yeah. I I I was trying to think about this, Evan. I I personally have never shot at I don't think any animal from kneeling with a bow. Um, and I don't know that I have had a hunter do it. Uh uh maybe I have and I just can't think of it. I mean, have you ever shot one from kneeling?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

No, I I mean I practice it on the target. Um I can't even draw my butt. Like if I'm sitting on my butt, um, I draw 70 pounds. I I can't even draw it sitting on my butt. Yeah, on my knees, I can, and I'm I'm actually very stable on my knees. Um, but again, like in our environment, you just there's enough clutter that um I think for concealment, standing is fine. Yeah, and and um, and and you're definitely better shooting when you're when you're stood up and and pointing your hip in a direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Yeah, yeah. No, I I I agree. And it like uh I mean I I can totally acknowledge that there'd be instances where somebody might it'd be nice to be capable of doing that, yeah. Um, but intentionally setting up on your knees seems just dumb.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

Yeah, maybe you know, to get under a limb or something. I I could see it. Um, and you should practice. I mean, you should practice all kinds of random stuff you're not actually going to use in the field, um because it'll make you more versatile, yeah, yeah, sure. In the field and on stuff, I I I like to try to stand and and generally like kind of out in the open.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Yeah. This is totally unrelated, but it made me think about it. Um, I was when I was Cape Buffalo hunting with with Tim Sundals, uh, it there was a situation where we were like really close to these buffalo, like probably within, I don't know, like maybe 20 feet from them, but it was crazy thick. And uh I I I had already killed one and and Tim was hunting and he had a double, like a 600 nitro, right? And he dude, he he got down in front of me and I could see the black blob of the buffalo, and he was kneel, he got he was kneeling, right? And I was thinking, like, he's gonna shoot, right? The buffalo's right there, like he's got a shot, like through the brush. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be badass. Like, I'm just gonna see this buffalo get whacked, you know. And then the buffalo obviously knew we were there, and and I I guess luckily turned around and left, right? And then I asked him, I'm like, dude, why didn't you shoot it? You know, I was just curious. I mean, he's experienced at it, and he had the perfect answer. He's like, dude, I didn't shoot it because the recoil of this gun would have knocked me out. Yeah, and then that buffalo would fuck me up, and I'm like, that's genius, because that I would have shot and then like hopefully it worked, you know what I mean? I would I would have never had the foresight to think like think like I'm I'm not gonna shoot because if I shoot, like I'm gonna be like then I'm screwed, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

Um, but I I gonna I got a great story for you. One time on a personal hunt, middle of the day, I was I was leaned against a tree with my bow in my lap. Okay, and a bull elk, a bull and a cow came trotting over this ridge. I'm kind of down in a draw. They came trotting right at me in the middle of the day with their tongues hanging out, somebody had bumped them or whatever. And I can see by their course, they're gonna come right by me on this trail. Um, and so I quickly like grab an arrow, get knocked, but I'm I'm sitting up against this tree, and the trails in front of me this way. Um, and I just stay motionless as they pass with the idea that somehow I'm gonna get drawn, turn around, and and and get a shot off, um, you know, and get them stopped there. As as I did that, right, as I got drawn, I came to I came to half turn and and trip my release because that whole movement was so off, right? I sent an arrow out there and it went um and full stopped and turned back and watched me while I tried to knock another, and then he was gone. Um uh, but as much as you can like minimize a whole lot of movements, awkward movements, um, the the the better you are. So I think on setup, just that remembering that point your hip thing is really helpful. Like, yeah, remembering that you gotta pivot your body to be able you you can't draw and turn across your spine.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing that you that you alluded to too, Evan, is key is that really having a bunch of shit in front of you, it's not doing you very much good. Nope. You know what I mean? It it it's it's much more of a net negative than you like. I think there's this perception that we naturally have of like, oh, I want some, I want a bunch of broken cover in front of me. And it's like that's just causes you problems, yeah. You know, yep. Um, it's like you say, like, you don't know for sure how they're gonna like you may have a good general sense how the bull's gonna come in, but you don't really know like how, like within that degree is like how he's gonna come in there, and then if you have a bunch of shit in front of you, it's yep, it it's problematic. Um, no, that's all good stuff, dude. What do you got on the gear front, man? You got any gear, you got any any new gear you use this last year, stuff, stuff that you've been into.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:21

No, I think I've already mentioned that to you. I love my backpack that I got right now. Uh it's an XO and it's bomb proof in in New Zealand, you know, backpacking every day. Um, it's your old you know, when you're backpacking, your backpack is your old buddy. It's yeah, it's your friend. And um that sucker is awesome. I love it. Um, what's a new thing? Oh, I here's here's one. Um I got a um I got a little lid for my Nal gene uh with a small spout. And I've seen I've seen other guys doing this for years and thought, man, that's genius. But I just now, you know, a decade after their their I just now got on board. Um, if you don't have a small lid on your Nalgene, get one. It's a game changer.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

Yeah, yeah. You're uh yeah, dude, you're late to the party on that one. Way late. But but I'm I'm with you. I I I can understand why a guy would have would would be like, why?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:19

You know, uh it's a game changer horseback, right? You you can't drink analgene when you're sitting on a saddle horse, you cannot drink from analgene without dumping it all over your chest. Um, yeah, and and now I can. I'm better hydrated because I got a lid from my analogy.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

No, no, yeah, yeah, I know it makes a it makes a huge difference, particularly if you got a be if you got a beard, dude, because you get analgene shit all over your your water's dripping all over your face. But um it's uh dude, have you uh on the horseback thing? Have you tried the stabilized binoculars off of horseback?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

No, so I've only messed with them once, Cliff. One one of the Packers last year had a had a set of those SIGs, and uh they kind of bought at first. I mean, I to be fair, I haven't like hunted with them yet. Um, but just looking around in them, I kind of got the goozies. Um, so I think there's probably a little bit of a learning curve there or getting comfortable with them. But um my first take on them was like, ah, I don't like it. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:18

Yeah, dude, and it's it's it's an interesting deal, Evan, because you're not the only one who's like that. You know, so some uh I know guys that cannot use them, period. Um, and then I know guys that I think uh their first, I think when you first use them, you need to use them like you would a normal binocular, like try to frame, try to limit, limit the movement so you can kind of get your brain like not screwed up, you know. Yeah, um, I don't know if that's the case, but I I think that I think that helps. But to your point, there are people who can't use them. I I'm I I'm obsessed with them, I use them all the time now. Um, but there's a it's it's weird because I'm also I'm pretty prone to seasickness. And so I'm kind of surprised, like if there are guys that that get sick from them, I'm surprised that I'm not one of them. And so I don't I don't know if it's a different thing, but it it can be a thing with with without a doubt. I I I'm always curious because I haven't maybe I've used them a little bit uh horseback, just like packing in and out, but I haven't used them much on horseback. Um, but I have used them out of a boat a lot and they work pretty well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:32

So you know, I'm I'm kind of more interested in them for tripod glassing. Um and like hear me out on this, like just um a lot of times, like through a spotter, for example, looking long distances here, a lot of times wind vibration on a tripod is enough to like have an effect. And I I could see those stabilized, those newer stabilized spotters that are coming out being really useful in wind without having the same movement sickness thing that I'm talking about. You know, it's it'd be subtle enough. I think I could take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:07

Yeah, dude, I uh I think it's a really good point slash question. I I have used the SI spotter quite a bit. Um, but when I I haven't used it like apples to apples comparison with another spotter in a s in like a really windy environment, you know what I mean? My my the when I when I have used one in a little bit of wind, like I honestly haven't noticed a big like a giant difference. Um, but I almost feel like it's unfair for me to make that comparison because you you'd almost have to like sit in sit and like uh uh use them side by side to know like how much difference difference there is. Um, so it's it's interesting. I mean, it's obviously that whole deal is evolving, you know, very could be a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:54

There's for sure times where like tactically here, I'm like, you know, it's it's too windy to glass or for me to glass effectively, which sucks, right? If if we had the tech.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. What do you would do you carry a spotter all the time?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:11

Yeah, yeah. I just have a I have a vortex, I got the mid-range, the Viper. I think it's uh uh 20 to 60 85. Okay, so you carry a pretty big spotter.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:22

Yep, yeah, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:23

You're you're not a horses too, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:27

Yeah, yeah. Do what what you what percentage of your hunting do you do where you're actually riding out every day? Is it the vast majority, Evan?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

Of the guided hunting, yeah, yeah, yeah. Vast majority using horses daily. Yep. Um, but I mean that doesn't mean it's still not a um like weight is still a concern because while we may ride horses out to a glassing knob, we're then yeah, we might march four miles on foot um to to actually make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:01

So yeah, do do you have a thought for guys? Um this has become I've had a lot of recent questions on this. Do you have a do you have any thoughts for guys that are interested in getting into horseback elk hunting?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Like don't unless you're already into horses. Yeah, I'm serious. Like that's a perfect that that's probably the that's probably the most realistic answer. Um, yeah, no, I'm I'm being real there. Or or become such an immersive horseman. Like, like don't get into horses to help your hunting. Like you should be in it for the love of horses and the love of horsemanship first. Um build those skills and and then apply it to to hunting. Um yeah, no, it I I I would I would talk people out of it if they're just like, man, I I I I wanna um I want to get into backcountry horse hunting, but I've never owned a horse before. Um yeah, yeah, don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:57

Yeah, it's like it's yeah, it's almost like I would agree with you. But it's like I like the idea of people wanting to get into it, but I think it's really hard for people to understand unless they've been around horses. Like, I mean, you could extend this to outfitting too, like the wilderness outfitting thing. I mean, how many guys are like, oh, I want to be I want to be an outfitter in the Frank Church or the Bob Marshall Flat Tops, yeah. They think it's about hunting, they think it's about hunting, and it's like, dude, it's not about hunting, it's about managing all these horses and getting people around. Like, that's but the hunting, the hunting part is like is for sure the minority, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:43

You know, um, yeah, no, like um, yeah, a horse, you're gonna own him for 12 months to use him for four days on your on your elk hunt, you know. Yeah, um, and uh uh just the um the the you know the skill set to get to where you're competent with horses and really capable with horses is like I I think several years of of learning. Um, and so um unless you kind of already have some background, like I said, I would talk you out of it unless you're willing to take on a five to seven year project, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I it's like I don't want to agree with you, Evan. Um, because I tell people this all the time, dude. Like, I mean, you're you're running uh you know, a huge proportion of the business that I ran for chunk of my life. There's a lot of things I don't miss about it, but I do miss the horses and mules. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so so for so for me, for me, it's like hard not to encourage people. And I also think uh maybe maybe this is biased, but I think the best guys like in the mountains are horseback guys for for the longevity of their life, they they are like you know, you don't see a lot of 75-year-old backpack elk hunters that are actually killing anything. Yeah, you do there's quite a few horse guys that do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:12

Yeah, um no, it's a good or at least as it relates to like wilderness, wilderness hunting, right? Yeah, it I mean you yeah, you you can you can hunt all into your 80s, um um off a side by side too, right? But uh as it applies to wilderness hunting, it the uh horses are hands down the most effective means of transport, you know. Yeah, they're you're more effective than backpack hunters, you're more effective than um well, you know, the llama and goat folks. Um yeah, uh they're shoot, dude. I I feel like horses are the reason humanity uh has reached the height of civilization that we have, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:54

Yeah, I know big big factor of it. Uh and so it's it's uh I guess maybe the takeaway on that is like it's not don't do it, but just realize it's a job.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

It's a long journey, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:05

Right, it's basic, it's basically a life-changing endeavor, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:09

Yeah, it needs to be full immersion and not just because you want to hunt elk for four days, like you need to be into the horses as as its own action as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:21

No, for sure, man. Well, dude, did we miss anything? Uh no, well covered, yeah. Sweet. Well, let people know uh what you got, uh, if you got any openings, if you know whatever, and then where people can follow you and all that good stuff, Evan.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

Sure, sure. Uh I mean, obviously, um, July here, we're we're planning for this year's hunting season and we're we're pretty booked out there, but now's a good time. I mean, I always give a speech. Um, now is the time you need to be planning 2027 hunts. Sure. It's a good time to do it. So um, yeah, if you're looking at doing a uh a drop camp or a guided hunt with flaptops um for 2027, reach out. Um LKS Outfitters, I manage Flaptops Wilderness Guides. That's ftguides.com. Uh, you can reach me there or follow us on our socials.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:10

Cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

Thanks, Evan.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:12

I appreciate it, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:13

Yeah, thanks, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:14

If you enjoyed this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliff.com. Go there, and it's going to be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I guide, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer in the membership site, all the details are there.