The Nuances Most Elk Hunters NEVER Figure Out

Three of us sat down after four days in the field. Cade, Cliff and Ryan (a student who just came off the elk class) and got into the small stuff that actually separates hunters who kill from hunters who don't. Not tactics you can read in an article. The judgment calls. When to move fast, when to sit down and wait, how much country you're actually willing to cross, and how much of your own hunting style you should be fighting versus leaning into.

Ryan's primarily an archer with real backcountry experience and that's most of what makes this one worth listening to. Two guys who've spent careers guiding, one guy who hunts the way most of you hunt, working through the same problems from three different angles.

Schedule for next year's classes: https://pursuitwithcliff.com/elk-hunting-master-class/

In this episode:

Why roughly 70% of the elk I kill guiding come from long, ugly stalks not from camp

The outfitter bubble, the trailhead bubble, and the huge unhunted country in between

How archers wreck their own odds by tunnel-visioning on bugling instead of glassing

Spot-and-stalking a bedded bull, and why almost nobody has it in their toolkit

Why nearly every student skips ranging and marking the animal before the stalk

Style-based hunting: why we don't tell a fast hunter to slow down

The honest math. You can do everything right and still be wrong a third of the time

 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Everybody has their bubble. Like there's my campsite and I got this bubble. And there's this weird mental hang-up of like, well, I can't go outside the bubble. Yeah. Your bubble is actually like this big. I think that's the biggest value of that big long stalk.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Oh yeah, I can put on a 3,000-yard stock. Dude, when I'm guiding, at least in like stuff that's easy to draw, that's how I kill 70% of the elk. Alright, so I've got Cade and then Ryan, one of the participants in the elk class. Me and Cade have done two of them back to back. I think 12 total students. Um, every time I do them, I learn something new myself, teaching them. And uh what's really interesting to me is like how how each class is the same, but also a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, it's a little bit different. It's an interesting because we're kind of new to it, so like we're kind of changing it up every time. I feel like every class it gets like wildly better.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, for sure. But uh, Ryan, I'm gonna put you on the spot right off the bat, dude, because you're really like primarily an archer, right? Yes, sir. And I would say, this is my my uh per my my perspective on it. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I would say you're like of the of the students we have, you're probably like in terms of experience level, like probably a little bit above average. You know what I mean? Like you've hunted some, like you've got some backcountry experience, that sort of thing. Um, like do you have just a like off-the-cuff take on the course?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

No, it was great. Yeah, great. Um, the archery part was what I was looking forward to the most. Sure. It was great.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yeah, yeah. Dude, I I uh I gotta ask you, because I always feel weird about the scenarios we do. Not not weird, but it's almost like when you first start. I think it's so funny. Um, it feels like I always have this hesitation that, oh hey, when we do these scenarios, because they're not actually real, people are going to not get into it.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Like not take it seriously.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah. Like, so for everybody that's watching on this, like what we're essentially doing is we're we're playing out common elk cutting, like archery elk cutting scenarios. Sure. It's multiple guys, and so you there is a little bit of like silliness, right? In the beginning, there where you're walking around with your bugle and your grunt tooth, and like and it feels a little bit silly, but but they're hyper-realistic. I I feel like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I know you've been you know in vocalizations with with elk, you've you've killed elk archery. Yes, sir. Um, I mean, what was your take on those scenarios?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

It's it's it's intimidating when you've got four or five guys behind you and you're trying to pretend like you're calling for a shooter that's 30 yards up there. Yeah. Everybody's watching. There's a little pressure.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

There's an element of like judgment, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

But dude, I doesn't it kind of feel like a hunting situation though? Because it's like you're the same. I I think me and Cade get this experience of it's easy for us because we're we're just we're just like taking notes. You know what I mean? But when I watch like you and the other guys, there's this like hunting is so like that where you're always trying to decide like what do I do next, right? And in the class, you're getting judged by me or Cade or Jim. We're you know, we're trying to give you constructive feedback, but yeah, you also have a little bit of an audience. I think it's kind of like the hunting scenario though. It like creates a little pressure, yeah. You know what I mean? Um what uh which one did you so we do we do usually what we'll do is uh what I the concept that I like to do is we try to build it where the scenarios are in some ways like single concept at first, but then we run into you know additional concepts. It might be like as an example, you know, the first scenario to me, or one of the first scenarios is like, hey, we just need people to understand that elk, when they come into calls, a bull is like he knows exactly where you're at, right? And then you and then later on we'll get into the details of like how we do the archery setup, but we'll do that single concept, you know. And uh I think it's nice to get into the scenario, and then you know, everybody can learn that concept, and then and then we progress. But what's wild, like I mean, I know when we did the the first scenario uh with Eric, and then I think you did it twice, right? Yeah, that first scenario. Um it's cool to see people like see that, and then particularly guys like you who have done it before, they can kind of relate it to experiences they've had. Yeah, you know what I mean? So that that's kind of kind of fun. Did you do you have a specific archery scenario that you liked?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Oh, the last one, the one-on-one. Oh, okay. Yeah, that was that was fun. That was neat. Yeah, I I'm I'm as I'm picking my way through the timber and I'm trying to be quiet, and I'm like, this is kind of silly because I'm trying to be quiet and you're gonna be able to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But then like, I gotta make it seem like this is what I would really do. Yeah. You know, so I'm trying not to break sticks and kick rocks and have uh brush slap my pack and stuff like that. So yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the I mean describe the last scenario. Well, you did you do the archer scenario?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I didn't run through the archer scenario. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

You set it up. So one of the scenarios we do, um, and just so you know, if you come do the class, like we we do change it up a little bit, so I'm not giving too much away. But one's realistic scenario we do is just straight up no calling. Or basically locate a bull, he's either like bugled by himself or whatever, or we've locate bugled and he's he's betted, and you do a full-on stock. Um I don't have you ever done that in real life?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

No, sir.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Yeah, and and the thing is, is it's super common. Like when you I mean, you know what I mean, Kate? Like, no, like I think we get so in tune with this idea that everybody archery hunting is calling in every bull they shoot. So uh I like to do that one because it's like for guys who haven't done it, now it's like in your toolkit. You know what I mean? I mean, do you have a thought on that?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

The hard part for me, I guess, is just finding them, you know, just finding the bedded bull. You know, I don't I can't think I've been to Colorado, six, eight times, something like that. And I don't think I've ever seen a place where I could spot a bedded bull, and I was like, we can go get that one. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Sure. Well, it's hard. It is hard, yeah, it's super hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Um, and I think part of that is too like uh a reliance on vocalization that so many guys you are so hell-bent on vocalizing back and forth with bulls that that's where you're focused and not so much maybe into glassing strategies and things like that. And I think that a lot of archers really undermine their own potential of of opportunity by being a little bit like tunnel vision towards I gotta bugle and listen for bugles, right? Do you think that do you think that uh like coming out of the course, do you think that uh you have like a a change of perspective at all on like what on on like how you go forward hunting? Is there anything in particular that you would change like from a takeaway from the course?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Um be patient, like you said. Call and sit. Don't wait five minutes, wait like 30 minutes, 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Which is funny, dude, because when you did this scenario, you were the only patient one. And it's because you've elk hunted before. You know what I mean? Like there's this real urge when people run through the rifle scenarios or the archery scenarios. As humans, like, we want to make something happen. Like we want to make something happen. And it it totally screws us in elk hunting a lot sometimes, like sometimes, you know what I mean? It's like this happy, this happy medium.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Trying to force it, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um makes me think about it. Something a friend of mine told me a long time ago about turkey hunting. He said, We're the ones that are in a hurry. Turkey halves all day to be a turkey. He's just living his life. Yeah. If I bugle or cow call and I hear and the elk hears it, he knows where I am. Yeah, I don't have to keep on and on and on.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Sure. Right. No, absolutely. And I I uh that's kind of like what you said is that almost every time each class, like we get somebody that says that, like, you know, they it's like getting exposed to one, just like the reps of doing the scenarios, which I think, you know, it takes years. You know, pretty like you're hunting public land, like what we did in three days, you know, like like the progressive archery setups, right? Like, hey, each guy's gonna go through and all we're gonna do is move the bull a hundred yards away, and everybody has to do a new setup and new vegetation, new terrain. Like that, I mean, I I wish we had more time because I think it was Andrew, like he's like, dude, I could have done a whole nother day of that, right? Right, you know, but I think that's because when we're out there, particularly if we're hunting public land or whatever, you it may take you three days to get one chance, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Right, and I think that's that's like that's the probably the biggest value out of these courses is that you know, like you're taking a whole like two whole careers of guiding archery outcunts, you know, and rifle outcunts too, but but you're taking all that experience and like almost every scenario that we put together is like it's something that I screwed up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yeah, we even have like names for them, but you know, if we don't say them out loud, we have them like in our heads, like this was you know, this was Jordan's bear, right? Like we do that rifle scenario or whatever. So they're real life things.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, and it's cool because then you know we can give you guys like those reps of like this is a real scenario that happened to me, and this is like this might be the biggest screw-up in a season, but we got like combined, you've got like you know, dozens of seasons worth of screw-ups, and you can run through them so quick. And I I think that I think that that's really cool, and it's almost it's it's as fun for me uh like to watch it as I can imagine it is for you guys to run through it because I'm I'm like remembering how it all played out, and it's pretty it's pretty interesting how these like artificial scenarios that are based off of real things that happen, how closely was people that never experienced it, it happens just like it actually did yeah, you know, yeah, and people take these like similar approaches, but at the same time, like these little nuances to it, and what's why well you saw this last class, like taught what we're like a giant uh like spectrum of personalities, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Like when you saw like Randall was he wasn't and Randall was in good shape for you know for you know for an older guy, but he was going to go at Randall's pace, which wasn't a bad thing, but he approached the scenarios based on that personality, right? And then like Sam from last class, like he was gonna kill shit quick. Yep. You know what I mean? It's it's not necessarily um it's not necessarily like one pro one approach or the other was like better or worse, but I think that for me personally, and I and and like I don't think we ever say this out loud during the class, but every time I teach it, I think I become a better hunter. Oh, you know what I mean? Because you're seeing like these mistakes people make that are fairly consistent, and you can relate, like I can relate. Um, but anyways, back to the personality thing, you realize like, oh, I'm not gonna tell Sam he needs to slow down. You're just gonna like leverage how his personality to become a more effective hunter, right? A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

And it's like I told actually Sam I told him because uh because he told me he said, I think I need to slow down. And I told him I was like, no, man, like that's your superpower, like that's going fast. And I think that like Ryan here is a really good example that we're having trouble with the onyx.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

And like your intuition, like we stopped, and I'm like, what does your intuition say? Yeah, you know, and like I mean, you you put that together like without the onyx. It was a beautiful stock, wasn't it? Yeah, sure. And it did it, I mean, how do you feel after that?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Oh, it was it was good. Yeah, one thing I when you asked me what did I learn, but yeah, in that scenario, go fast, you know. Yeah, when you're gonna get around. Yeah, like once you know where an animal is, when you can move. And I've always been like, I'm hunting. You go slow when you're hunting. Yeah, yeah. No, he's over the ridge, he can't see you. Take off, get there as fast as you can. Yeah, that's what I did with that art with that um rifle setup. You know, once I knew I was behind, you know, below that knob, yeah, we took off.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a great deal. So like everybody has their own like personality type like superpower. Like, that's your superpower. Like, your intuition is really good. You're able to pinpoint it, like, I don't need the map, like I know it's right there. Sure. Now I know it can't see me, and you capitalize on that opportunity. And I think that's a really cool thing for us, is that you kind of get to cultivate, like, we go through the principles, right? Of of like kind of showing you guys like the process of you know how to glass and find something and range it, and then make a you know, point it out on a map, and then build a route, and then figure out your wind and do all those things, but everybody does it in their own style, and I think it's really cool to watch everybody's style cultivate. Then in the beginning, it's like a little bit awkward, and then by the end of it, it's like you've got your style. Sure, you know. Yeah, all right, guys.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So some of my content you're gonna see that I've been using this chest holster from Invader Concepts. This is with my 10 millimeter. I also use it with my Glock 19 and even a PMR30. I'm gonna do a bunch of content here in the next couple months on that around bear defense. It should be interesting. It looks a little awkward to have your gun under your bino harness, but if you test out all the different variations, it is the best and you have it on you all the time. I do have a discount code, it's Cliff G and it's for 10% off. Go check them out. Yeah, and the other thing is like in it, I don't know if if you felt this way much, Ryan, but you start to learn like on the gear front, like the limitations in the reality. You theorize things, right? Like you theorize how you're gonna get into your shooting position, right? Right, which is like the standard one, but you also theori theorize of like, hey, I can always use Onyx to pinpoint it exactly, but then when you do reps, you realize, like, oh, like the compass is gonna be 10 degrees off one way or the other, and so you have to take other factors. You like once you know that, like it's like the example of uh when when me and you did the uh archery stock, like you pinpointed that big blaze on the tree, and this is like we're in all this beetle kill, like oh, I think I just this I described the example. Like, if I'm I'm high country mule deer hunting, it's super easy to pinpoint a rock, they're always bedded by a rock, right? So I can use the onyx, whatever, but I can also use the rock, you know, to pinpoint like I know that buck's under the rock, double check it on onyx, I can pin it, and I can do a stock knowing where he's at. But in this country, you got like this broken, you know, all this like half of it's beetle kill. So you can't say like that's a dead tree or whatever. But you pinpointed like a tree above the bull that had this giant blaze on it. And I mean, I mean, I did this scenario four times and I never thought about it. You know what I mean? But it was like money spot because as you got in there, if you look for that blaze, you're gonna find it. Plus, it was yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

You could see it, you could see it before you came over the knob.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, anyways, my my point was like you can theorize how you're gonna do these stocks and how you're gonna pinpoint the elk or whatever, but dude, unless you do reps at it, you don't realize like how actually hard it is. You know, like once you get in there, it's like, oh dude, like yeah, well, the the the quintessential examples, every class, when we start doing the more extensive scenarios, even though we've talked about you know making sure you know where the animal's at, I mean, how many people skip it?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, basically, yeah, I mean it's crazy how many people, I think that's like that's a big takeaway for everybody, is that almost instantaneously you got guys that they they glass up, like uh for the viewer, like we put flags up. So we've got flags up as our targets there. Sure. How many guys find the flag and immediately just like they forget everything that we just talked about for two days, and they just start hiking, and then they're like, Oh, I should have marked it, I should have done this, I should have arranged it, I should have done all that. And it's and it's it's really hyper-realistic because that's how it happens in the real world, is that you know you're like, oh man, there's my mouth, and you take off running, and then you get where you can't see it anymore, and you're like, Why didn't I see it?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, halfway through the stock, you're like, I can't see it. Or I mean you can go 10 feet and all of a sudden you can't see it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And then you're like, holy shit.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Which I was super proud of Brock for that this week.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

That uh Brock got to where you describe Brock first.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

So yeah, so Brock's like very green, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Like, never, never pissed in the woods. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Basically, and uh then we got out, um, you know, we kind of have the like really, really uh hammer down like the I mean everything from safety to shooting, uh shot incredibly well for a guy that hadn't never really shot before. Um, yeah, did really, really well with it. But he's you're taking a guy that's totally green, sure. And it's almost easier like that because he doesn't have bad habits, right? Yeah, and so uh, but yeah, he he went through his process really well and he actually he ranged and he pinned it on his onx and everything was good, and he began his stalk, and then once we couldn't see it anymore, he looked at me and he goes, I think I'm gonna back up and try to find it again. Yeah, sure. And he backed up and he found it again, and then he started putting together landmarks. Yeah, and then and then I mean it's like I'm like, this is perfect, yeah, like this is so good. And I don't think nearly enough guys take the time to think, like, oh, I'm a little disoriented. Maybe I could just back up 75 yards and then reorient myself, yeah, and then and then go for real. And then he moves pretty fast, sure. Which uh, which is is really great, and that's like I mean, it's just like taking all the things that you learn uh and then actually putting them into play, which like you talk about, like everybody's everybody theorizes what they're gonna do and how they're gonna do this and how they're gonna do that. Yeah, every individual case is a little bit different, number one, and number two, you introduce that adrenaline even on a flag, and people just like leave them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, I mean, including me. Like, you know, I've I've done the scenarios, like I did, I've done the like the big rifle scenario. And like maybe I did it with more, you know, you know, maybe I did it with a little more uh you know diligence once I knew I screwed it up, but I screwed it up a lot like how everybody else does. Yeah. You mismark it or whatever. Yeah. You know, and uh yeah, it's super, it's super interesting how you how you do that, even though you know there's a process. Um, you I mean, I think it's I think it's like a perfect replication of like the like hunting because you got that pressure and you're like, ah, I just want to make something happen. And it and then you don't know where the animals at, you know, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, I mean, for example, we ran the I I set up that one rifle scenario, and everybody ends up uh glassing their flag from like 700 yards out, and so we had uh so so far we've had what like 13, 14 guys run through that same scenario, and no two stalks were alike, yeah. Like no two processes were alike. I mean, very few people, I mean, there's probably like three or four common shooting positions, sure, but that's it. I mean, almost everybody shot from a different place, everybody stalked it at a different speed, had a different process, and it's all like kind of the same concept, and and it's almost even more valuable for me because I'm I'm watching it play out for all these different people, and I'm like, man, like honestly, most of these, well, just about all of them, would have worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it kind of opens like a little bit differently. That whole like understanding of of style-based hunting that as long as your process is good, you know, then then however you do it, like do it in your style, do it where you're confident. Yeah, you know, and that's all I think that that's all that I really hope for for you guys coming out of it, is that confidence booster that you can go out and do it by yourself and and and feel like really confident that you're gonna do well. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

We had a good uh after this course, like I thought last night, and it was very helpful for like all you know, all the input that we got from the guys. Um, we were kind of kind of thinking about like a level two. And part like one consistent thing that people say is like, hey, we we you know, during the course, what we do is we we talk about the spike out, right? Like, hey, we see a bull that's probably like maybe you can get to him today, but really you could leverage you know your chances hugely by spending one night out, which is a pretty foreign concept to most well, I shouldn't say it's a foreign concept. Every backcountry guy talks about it. I mean, I know that less than you know, less than five percent actually ever do it, you know. And um but as me and you know, like it it works. Like if you have the capability of spending one night out, and that's something that we've been doing the setups on, but we're not actually executing it in this course because we got time limitations. Um, but I thought that's interesting that that was like consistent feedback to do that because we do the we do one big early morning, like we we either find an elk or or if we you know if the situation's not perfect on where the elk is or whatever, we'll go do like a three or four hour hike, you know, on a on a mock elk.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah, we put on that long distance talk.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Every class there's at least one guy who is super surprised how fast we got there, like how it would have worked, you know what I mean? Like I think like you've done it in real life, so you probably like you're you weren't the guy, right? But there's always a guy that's even some guys that have hunted a lot, they're like, Oh, I would have never done that. I would have either just thought it was too far, or I just would have I would have like just not done it purely, or I would have thought it was gonna take me 10 hours to get to or whatever. Um, and that's just from one rep of doing it, you know what I mean? Right. Um, I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah, I think it's super interesting because like uh you get a really good feel about what the average bubble is. Like everybody has their bubble. Like there's my campsite, and I got this bubble, and there's this that weird mental hang up of like, well, I can't go outside the bubble. Yeah, yeah. It's like, well, your your bubble is actually like this big, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, even if you didn't want to return. And I think that I think that's the biggest value of that big long stock. Yeah. Because it once again that conversation. Confidence booster that, oh yeah, I can put on a 3,000-yard stalk. Yeah, I could pull that off in like two hours. It's not bad.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Well, what's I mean, not to sound like ass nine about it, when, but when people bring it up to me, I'm like, dude, when I'm guiding, at least in like stuff that's easy to draw, that's how I kill 70% of the elk. Like you I don't kill them within the like easy walking distance from camp, typically. Right. It's usually like a stock that's kind of a pain in the ass. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

And so that's like one thing I think I brought up yesterday about how you have like the outfitter bubble. You got all these guys that are horsepacking in it, it takes them 11 hours to get there. So like they gotta go. And then you got the trailhead bubble of everybody that's hiking out of the trailhead, and then you have that huge area in between. It's usually massive. Yeah, and it's like guys just are intimidated by getting into that in-between. But a guy that's that's confident enough to get in there into that in-between is gonna kill elk. Sure. You know, at a way higher percentage than anybody else because he's just putting himself in a in a position where there isn't other hunters to compete with.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah. You know, you know, uh, you asked me kind of like when we were wrapping it up, you asked me a question, you know, about your actual hunting like location and some thoughts on it. Um, I mean, were you surprised about with my answer? Or or did it kind of did it kind of like make sense with the progression of the class? You kind of reinforced it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

It's like, yeah, you know, we're as a group, my hunting group, we're kind of in maybe it's too far down, too steep, we're gonna get down there and it's gonna take us all day to get back up.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Yeah, or you're gonna screw up the L.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

We're gonna screw it up, but yeah, but you know, what you I my takeaway from talking to you after that was you gotta get down there and get in them. Yeah, yeah. If you blow them out, you blow them out. Yeah, you know. I mean, don't be stupid about it, sure. But you gotta get down there, you've got to get up there wherever they are, you gotta get there. Yeah, you know, no matter how hard it is, it's and that's part of what uh you're the bubble thing, and being this far from camp, you know, it's it's intimidating looking up at a mountain and going, that's two miles from here. Yeah, it's not two miles, two miles like this, or two miles like this, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be intimidating, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah, but when you do it once, like I mean, we've had tons of variation in fitness level. In those stocks we do, like everybody can do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, a guy could be pretty overweight and if he paces himself like he does he does it, and then it's in his toolbox, you know what I mean? So I think that's an interesting it's kind of an unanticipated thing when we started doing the courses.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I didn't think it was Yeah, I wouldn't think it would be such a high value activity. Yeah, but it seems to be like one of the highest value, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Yeah, no, no, for sure, man. Um, yeah, it's uh it's interesting, like I said, like I I learn things every time we we do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

I have a ton of fun with it, you know, and I I I get a lot of personal value out of it. You know, like I said earlier, just watching everybody's confidence level rise because it's like by the end of it, I feel like everybody is like like has a really good handle on a their own ability, yeah, and like kind of has their process figured out and then and just has that confidence level of like I can I can go out and do this. Yeah, I love that. Sure. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Um, dude, I gotta ask, uh, was it the first time you're around grizzly bears? No. Oh, you've been around them before. Okay, yeah, yeah. So you've had it, you've had to deal with it. It's funny because we it like I always I always wonder how much it makes people nervous.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, I feel like the first day there's like people have a little bit of a Yeah, and then once the like the boogeyman doesn't show up in camp, then everybody's like, ah, well, you know. Yeah, yeah. Like it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

The lightning storm was more intimidating to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Oh yeah, it was a pretty good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But uh but that's like a um it kind of plays back into the gear component of it. You know what I mean? Like it's a good I I mean, at least I think I'm I'd love to hear your perspective on it. It's a good way for people to test their stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Like I always saw I talk about on YouTube videos, like, hey, you should put your stuff in your backyard, or you should go on a scouting trip, whatever, but like when are you gonna do that? Right. You know what I mean? Like when's that the normal guy gonna be able to do that? Everybody's got life, family work, all that. So it's a cool, I think it's a cool opportunity to do that. Like you can get because you brought some new gear, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

And there's plenty of people there that have backups if you know everybody. Oh yeah, nobody's there. Yeah, yeah. And worst case scenario, you have to go about go down to the truck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a mile?

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's easy, like an easy environment to test stuff. Yeah. Yeah, like that night if somebody's tent blew away. I mean, there was like tons, you know, we've yeah, we got every we got every very and then the other thing that's kind of cool for me, even, even though like I, you know, given all the social media stuff, like we're always testing new things, but everybody brings different stuff, you know. Right. Um, like my stery pin, uh uh, you know, after five years, I've had a few that have gone out, but it went out, and I'm sitting here talking to you guys, like what's like what are you guys using for water filters? I'm gonna try something new. And everybody's got like a you know, I mean, you can't keep you can't keep up to date with all this shit, even if you're in the business, you know. Yeah, and so I think it's cool that way. Yeah, I think it's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I almost every year somebody brings a piece of equipment that I'm like, oh that's that's interesting. Like that's a really cool addition. And now the industry is just like going so fast, I can't even keep up.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's it's endless. So it's a good it's a good environment for that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

I think that I think one of the coolest things about it is that because you don't have like a tag on the line, and there isn't this, there isn't this like thing out there that we're chasing that it like it like cuts the level of anxiety that everybody has, right? That they're like, I'm just here to learn, and I'm just here to play this thing out and see how it goes. That all the scenarios, even though they're high stress, right? Like, like it's a high stress scenario, but you're actively learning because you're not so stressed out, like you're more stressed out about screwing it up than you are about punching a tag, which like makes everybody focus on all their little individual like steps, and then I feel like it really like solidifies in a guy's brain. Like the first time that you wander off and you you don't you know range your your target before your stalk, like you've burned yourself, and and it's like it's like it sticks with guys. Yeah, they're like, Oh, I won't do that again.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Guys, I've been using Onyx Maps for almost two decades now, hunting, guiding, outfitting. It is the gold standard tool when it comes to mapping software in the hunting world. They've been a huge supporter of my content for multiple years. So if you want to support me and you want to support them, use my code CliffG for 20% off at onxmaps.com. It is an awesome tool that I use all the time when I'm preparing for hunts, and I use it almost every single day in the field for navigation, knowing unit boundaries, knowing private land boundaries, it is the tool you have to have. Dude, I think what it is, well, I mean, what do you think about the feedback? Like the the fact that we're able to give you, like, well, not even that that me and Kate or Jim are able to give you feedback, but because it's not an actual hunting scenario, you can actually like assess it yourself. Did you think about that at all?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And you can process it, you know. Yeah, you can think about it because, like you said, you don't have to be quiet, you make it make noise, you're not yeah, after it's done, you just do your thing. Yeah, and there's no tag, there's no pressure of uh, you know, I've spent all this money for this tag, yeah, all this time off work, you know. So, yeah, the feedback's great. I mean, yeah, it's invaluable.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Dude, because I think about it in my own my my own guiding and hunting. A lot of times when I totally screw things up, I don't even really think about it. No, I'm just like you just chalk it up to well, I gotta go find another one. You know, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Because it's high stress, yeah. It's about the thing, it's not about the process.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I think there's I think there's really something to that. Sure. You know, and there's no time constraint either. That like when we're doing the scenario, it's like, hey, take your time. Like I want you to, I want you to learn all the way through it so that when the time does matter, you've already got the process down, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Man, if there's one thing that we could have done, like it maybe we did it once or twice during the course, but we could have done more. Can you think of one that you would have enjoyed like doing more? The one-on-one stock. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you felt that was the best feedback. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then we could, instead of it just being a purely like stock, we could have thrown in a calling scenario or whatever, and it being one-on-one. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

The one-on-one's great.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, and we're I think we'll probably start doing more of them.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, everybody seems to really like them.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, we do one like like one-on-one rifle scenario, one one-on-one archery scenario, and everybody does does like it. What what's kind of cool is when everybody comes back and can talk about like their individual one-on-ones. And uh, isn't it funny how like like like the one like I even on the on the archer stock that me and you did together, there was a moment where you were like, oh, like the bull would have seen me or whatever. Um, and I I I would guess that you were thinking like you're the only guy that did it. Like every guy did it, and most of them did it way worse than you. You know what I mean? And then you see that when you go back, right? Like everybody does the same thing, like they're exposed kind of in the same spot, and you feel like an idiot, but then it's cool to like go talk to everybody's like, yeah, well, we all did that, you know what I mean? Uh at varying degrees, you know. So I think that's kind of it's kind of cool. Not not to get like too woo-woo about it, but it's kind of weird how our human nature takes us into the same mistakes, right? You know what I mean? Like on all these scenarios, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

I mean, the particular the rifle scenario that we've all been running through, it's really funny because like I'm not gonna ruin it for anybody, but yeah, it's like it's like it's got a built-in obstacle, yeah, and everybody, everybody fails basically the obstacle there, and it's like everybody gets flustered about it, yeah. And it's kind of interesting to see how they all pivot. Yeah. But it's like it's just you're it's kind of designed for failure, right? Yeah, and then but everybody, everybody's able to pivot off of it, you know. But it's just interesting to see how everybody's brain works, yeah. And that even though you have all these totally different angles and different stalks, that you eventually, once you come to that obstacle, yeah, it's like everybody struggles the same for the same and it's mentally mental struggle, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Which I think is the reality of hunting, dude. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like it's it's like it's an uncontrolled thing, we're all gonna make mistakes. And dude, I hope that's I I think it's one of the most challeng like there's a lot of things about doing this like scenario-based training that I think are are very like just directly valuable to people. But one thing that I struggle to teach in it is that like uh like let's take archery setups. You're like half of them that I do in the field are total disasters. You know what I mean? Like you're all you're trying to do is just improve how you do it, it so you improve your problem, like your hit rate. You know, like you're improving your batting average.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

It's hard, it's hard. Like, I try to, I try I try to because that's something you almost have to like verbally explain to people. Like, like me, Kay, Jim, like, dude, just because this is like what we view as like the framework and the in the perfect setup, it's still like we're still wrong 35% of the time, whatever, 50% of the time. I think but it's better than being wrong 90% of the time.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah, I think that's the I think that's the biggest takeaway is like it's like a hard balance, right? Because I want every I don't wanna I don't wanna crush everybody's like hopes and dreams and like you're never gonna kill anything, but you also don't want to make it so easy that you have like an unrealistic idea of like how come the breeze. Yeah, and it's like and it's like it's like hard, it's like hard to portray that almost to guys that like look if you can do everything right and you're still probably not it's probably not gonna happen. You know, like you got like like you said, like 35% success or whatever. Like if you do everything right, you could be you could be really good like a third of the time. But yeah, exactly what you said, like but it's way better than the alternative of just never killing anything. So it's yeah, it's a hard balance trying to make the scenarios realistic, but also not crush everybody's hopes and dreams. Yeah, and I think that I think we do a an okay job.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a hard thing, man. I mean you've hunted, so it's easier because you can explain, you know, like you know, you're like, oh yeah, this still, like there's these variables. We can set up exactly how the topography would assume that bull's gonna come in, but sometimes he just comes in from a different way. Yep. You know what I mean? Like the those sort of things. Um, dude, one thing that's pretty uh like an unanticipated thing out of doing the courses is uh, and we haven't talked about this at all, Ryan, but like um a lot of guys that do the course end up hunting together. Um, like a lot. Yeah, you know, um, and uh I don't know. I mean, do you have thoughts on that? I I I guess most people come into the course with kind of the same mindset, like they're open to you know, you could disagree with me and I'm sure there's things that we said today that you're like based on my hunting or over the last three days, like based on my hunting experience, that's bullshit, right? But you're like, oh well, yeah, but but you know what I mean? Like there might be there might be little things that like you, you know, everybody's got a different like you know, way of doing things. Um, but guys that come do the course are open to it. And I don't know if that's why they end up hunting together. It might just be that there's you know, now you know guys or whatever. I mean, do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Well, maybe they come here and they learn, you know. A lot of guys only hunted a handful of times, you know, including me, but some of them lessen me. Yeah. And so now they've been here and they've seen Cliff and Cade's way of doing things, and then they like, oh, that we can do that together because our styles are gonna be the same because we were when we think about the same things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yep. And there it there is uh, I mean, we could do a whole nother five-hour podcast on it, but that's like one of the biggest challenges of hunting, I think, for like the model. Yeah, no, yeah, having a good hunting partner.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Then having a partner that has the same process as you.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Yeah, yeah, or yeah, or just close. You know what I mean? Um, I think I think that's uh I think it's a cool, it's a cool thing that's come out of the course. Um, but it's not something I anticipated, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah, I mean I think it's arguably, I I think that's a the arguably like the hardest part of guiding hunts. Is that right? That like you got a different guy with a different style all the time. So you're like trying to mold to somebody else's ability and process. Yeah. And I think that like guys that are gonna hunt in pairs and be successful together, like if they have that similar process, they're they're gonna do well. Sure. And I don't wanna I don't wanna like sound, I don't wanna sound like arrogant about it, but I do think that like the guiding experience is actually what makes this course work, is because like I, you know, I could be a really good DIY hunter on my own and not be able to like teach anybody anything because I just well this is just my like it works, this is how I do it and this works or whatever. But because we have the ability to to pivot and like shift styles really quickly and say that like alright, I know that like you are gonna hunt differently than Randall's gonna hunt differently Brock, and you know, and kind of kind of mold to that. Like I said, I don't want to sound arrogant, but I do think that that like I think that's what makes it.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

It's a different perspective, yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Because you've hunted you you end up hunting with a lot of different people, you know. Um, dude, not to put you on the spot, but I am curious on this. Me, Cade, Jim, like we have different ways that we hunt and we have different thoughts on things. Uh I mean, what are you like from a from a learning perspective? Do you have a perspective on that? Not really, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, is it distracting? Do you view it as a a good thing? What's that? Like, like, like the fact that like Kate doesn't vocalize as much as me and Jim do. You know what I mean? Like he's gonna spot and stock bulls more, you know, set up on their, you know, their you know, where it where he thinks they're gonna be, that sort of thing. And then me and me and Jim, you know, we for sure I mean, if I could call in every bull during archery season, I would do it. You know, because it's cool. You know, or that's how I like I I like that. But um, so I lean that way, you know what I mean? Whereas Cade's gonna lean a little bit different way.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

And do you think the different styles do you think it help? Uh yeah, yeah, it'll definitely help. Yeah, a little different perspective. I lean more towards the calling side. Yeah, yeah. But but now I'm like sit there and wait on them. You know, spot him, spot him, go up there and sit and just wait. Just sit up there all day until he comes out comes out of his bed. Yeah, you know, right.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah, and that's like another I I I mean, I've gotten that from the course. Is like, hey, you know, I got that's another part of the toolkit. You know what I mean? Like if that scenario arises, like I don't have to go try to call this bull in. You know what I mean? A lot of times, a lot of times that's the dumb move. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Right. Um Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being versatile.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, yeah, vers it just creates some verse versatility, you know. But uh, sweet man, you got anything else?

SPEAKER_01 40:11

I don't know. I think that's it. I mean, I yeah, that's that's kind of kind of glossed over. I could talk about it forever. I'm proud of it. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah. Well, we we thought we thought you were like maybe the one guy that was gonna give bad feedback, so we got y'all the podcast, so you can't. Just kidding, dude.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

You can still my feedback is worth every penny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Worth every penny. That's awesome. I appreciate that. Yep. I hope I don't have to do it again, but I would do it again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to level two. I don't want to have to I don't want to have to go back and repeat. Yeah, sure. I don't want to fail level one and have to come back and do it again.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Dude, honestly, man, like what the way I think about it, and we we we get a little, we get uh maybe maybe a lot of this every year. We like one cool thing about it is we get feedback after people hunt because it's summertime. Sure. So then they go, then they go hunting, you know, and you get you get to like, dude, this was like basically the scenario we did. Yeah, and I think and it worked out in real life or whatever. So I kind of look forward to seeing like what you what you say, you know. Um, so you gotta you gotta keep us in the loop on that. That's always like a a selfish uh um like benefit to us, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah, I love it because we've had a couple, you know, I've had a couple guys now. We've had a couple guys that have come off the cliff. Oh, yeah, yeah. They've gone out and killed stuff, you know, and then they send pictures and everything. And it's like really validating, makes me feel like I'm not just doing it for nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

For sure. Well, uh, yeah, thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for having me. I appreciate I appreciate your feedback. We totally uh we totally it was like what just 10 minutes before, like, dude, you're coming on. You got a flight later this afternoon, so you're you're the podcast guest. So uh I appreciate you doing it, man. I know that can be nerve-wracking. I wish you the best on the hunts. Thank you. But uh yeah, just so you guys know out there, um, we'll probably put out the schedule for next year, I would guess, in December. Yeah, you know, and uh not to be egomaniac ego maniacs about it, but it fills up pretty quick.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

I don't yeah, yeah, it fills up quick and I don't I don't think that I don't think that anything anybody else would do anything quite like this. Yeah, yeah, it's unique.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

We've taken a different approach and uh we've molded a little bit over the over the years, you know. So uh it's been fun. But yeah, thanks, man. Thank you. Cool thanks. If you enjoy this content, do me a huge favor. Subscribe on whatever platform you consume it on. Spotify, apple, YouTube, whatever works for you guys. Everything else is on my website, pursuitwithcliff.com. Go there, and it's gonna be very apparent to you that I work my ass off just to not have a real job. All the hunts I guide, all the seminars I put on, all the unique experiences I offer, and the membership site, all the details are there.