This week's Steep Stuff podcast guest is none other than the trailblazer himself, Benjamin Townsend; who brings the highs and lows of his running journey right into your ears. From his childhood roots in Logan, Utah, to the punishing Broken Arrow Skyrace, Benjamin doesn't hold back on the details of his intense training and the unforgettable races that have marked his ascent in the trail running world.
Navigating the undulating path of trail running isn't just about endurance; it's a dance of strategy and support, something that Benjamin and I dissect with the precision of a well-placed foot on a mountain trail. We unravel the contrasts between American and European approaches to the sport, and consider the emerging trend of trading college running tracks for rugged trails. Equally, we reflect on the shared stories from events like the XTERRA 21K National Championship and the Iron Face Challenge, granting you a window into the technicalities that make each race a unique beast to conquer.
The episode isn't just about looking back; it's a forward march to the future of trail running. We debate the purity of the sport in the face of growing commercialization and its potential Olympic future, wrapping up a conversation that's as varied and challenging as the trails Benjamin and I have both come to love. Join us for an episode that’s as much about the soul of running as it is about the sweat and dirt.
Benjamin Townsend IG - @benjamin.tsend
This week's Steep Stuff podcast guest is none other than the trailblazer himself, Benjamin Townsend; who brings the highs and lows of his running journey right into your ears. From his childhood roots in Logan, Utah, to the punishing Broken Arrow Skyrace, Benjamin doesn't hold back on the details of his intense training and the unforgettable races that have marked his ascent in the trail running world.
Navigating the undulating path of trail running isn't just about endurance; it's a dance of strategy and support, something that Benjamin and I dissect with the precision of a well-placed foot on a mountain trail. We unravel the contrasts between American and European approaches to the sport, and consider the emerging trend of trading college running tracks for rugged trails. Equally, we reflect on the shared stories from events like the XTERRA 21K National Championship and the Iron Face Challenge, granting you a window into the technicalities that make each race a unique beast to conquer.
The episode isn't just about looking back; it's a forward march to the future of trail running. We debate the purity of the sport in the face of growing commercialization and its potential Olympic future, wrapping up a conversation that's as varied and challenging as the trails Benjamin and I have both come to love. Join us for an episode that’s as much about the soul of running as it is about the sweat and dirt.
Benjamin Townsend IG - @benjamin.tsend
Hey guys, welcome back to the steep stuff podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and today we've got a really fun one Colorado Springs young gun, benjamin Townsend. Fresh off his win at the Rattler 25 K in Colorado Springs this past weekend, ben is, he's ready for his 2024 season and I'm excited to see see where he goes. We had him on to talk a little bit about his 2023 season, where he raced at the Broken Arrow 23 K as well as the as the mammoth trail fast, as well as the Pike's peak ascent. Uh, ben is pretty young. He's the youngest guy we've had on the pod so far, at only 20 years old, and he's already setting the trails on fire. So I am so excited for his future and I think this is a really fun one, uh, that you guys are going to enjoy. The is a really fun one, uh, that you guys are gonna enjoy. The kids are all right, man.
Speaker 1:Um, go ahead and check out the steep stuff podcast episode 8, benjamin townsend. It's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are live. So, yeah, man. So how's tapering going?
Speaker 2:Tapering's going good. I'm not tapering super heavily for this one, just walking kind of walking into it, yeah. So I'm doing like a slight taper into this one and then gonna really work into uh, I'm using it sort of as a big session. Okay, for sky race day, math scene. Okay, which is that one? One of the sky runner series races in france, okay, and that'll be may 5th. Oh, dude, so you're you're getting getting close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, we're gonna dive into that. We are live now, by the way, everybody, uh, do you prefer ben or benjamin? Benjamin, benjamin. Yes, sir, all right, so everybody, benjamin townsend. Um, I'll let you introduce yourself and you can tell the world a little bit about your background and, uh, we can get into it man cool.
Speaker 2:yeah, super stoked to, super stoked to be on. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm Benjamin Townsend. I'm a mountain runner from Colorado Springs. I was born in Colorado Springs, although didn't live here my whole life, Grew up a lot in Logan, Utah. Oh wow.
Speaker 2:Like the park that I would walk to from my house to play at is where the Bear 100 starts. So trail running has always been very close to me. And then me and my family actually moved out to the Philippines for my dad's job and then came back to Colorado Springs and I can't seem to get myself away. I went to Flagstaff for a little bit, came back and there's not a lot of places better than Colorado Springs. Dude, I love it here.
Speaker 1:My fiance and I were just in we're doing like wedding planning right now we were just out in durango this past weekend and, uh, one of the places we had it's funny like we talked about for a while like possibly moving to durango, and we were like, do we want to go that route, do we want to not? And you know what man like and this is no shade at durango I love it. But it just made me really appreciate how much I enjoy the springs. Right, like you can get out and you can get yourself a 2,000, you know 3,000 foot climb right out your door. Like it's not that hard in the springs. You got a 14er in your backyard. You just have it's. You have so much. And if you want to run flat, you can run flat. If, if you want to run technical, you can get technical. Yeah, just from a running perspective, I really like the Springs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's underrated. It's super underrated because I'm going to preface with Boulder is a million times better than Colorado Springs. If anyone wants to go, if anyone wants to come here, go to Boulder, but Colorado Springs is, it's got way more variety of trails you got you can run literally in the desert, yeah, and garden of the gods like it feels like you're in moab yeah, it does and then you can get to those high alpine, and then it's basically you have all the same trails that you have in boulder, but without the crowds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's, it's pretty good spot it is very unique and man like I don't know, maybe we shouldn't tell people about this kind of hide the secret, but no, but like it is unique that you can, how do I say this? It's for for a metro, like a metropolitan area, the other than, like the incline and bar trail and the garden, like the rest of the trails, are not very traffic, right you?
Speaker 2:don't have a problem getting into a parking lot.
Speaker 1:You don't have a problem getting into a parking lot, you don't have a problem being able to run, like it's not that bad and it, and the parody too is like the interesting part is like you can get into the like. I always take the spring, for example, like my my fiance runs a lot with the dogs on like a ramp part and when it's still closed so and brand parts for the most part always melted out and I like to run up high, so even try to get snow and get up pretty high. So it's just interesting you can be up high and then an hour later you can be down in the garden and it's completely dry and it's like a desert.
Speaker 2:It's unique. It is crazy.
Speaker 1:I did a ride from Balanced Rock all the way up Rampart and then around Rampart Reservoir and it's crazy, because you'll get up there and it's 50 degrees and you get back down and it's 80 and you're like, oh my, it's just, it's just crazy. Yeah, that's cool, it's a unique place and there's just like a lot of hidden gems too that I won't name drop we can, I'll tell you off the, there we go not to gatekeep too hard, but like there's, just there's some jabs bar trail and incline.
Speaker 2:That's right. Go to the incline, that's weird.
Speaker 1:Um, so, dude, logan utah, that is a unique place, so the only time I've ever like heard it mentioned. I know jason schlarb, uh, was just out there this week or last couple weeks ago. Um, I saw it all over strava. He was out there hitting some big climbs and like that part of the wasatch is just gorgeous, oh it's.
Speaker 2:It's unreal. You got mountains all the way around. Um, there's a lot of trail culture there.
Speaker 2:My dad was a part of icon at the time, okay, which was the company that initially bought ultra oh yeah, and so ultra sort of moved icon moved to logan and then they bought ultra and so it was this big like trails scene going on all at once right when we moved there, and then that was sort of where I grew up. It's a nice small town. It's uh getting bigger now, unfortunately, but back back then there was not a lot of people there. The wasatch front, I feel like is just so.
Speaker 1:Uh, coveted now you know, we're. It's just like the springs to the front range, like same concept where it really wasn't that expensive to live years back and then now everybody wants to be out.
Speaker 2:Right, you know everyone's leaving California, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:So you're in the Springs now. I think we, we, we introduced you. Benjamin town said mountain runner, but dude, you were so much more than that. That's why I wanted to have you on the podcast. I mean, you're by far the youngest athlete that I've had on so far and I think that there's just I want to. I love having on these young killers and that just makes me stoked because the future of the sport is just so bright.
Speaker 1:Um, you've run races like broken arrow. You're going to be doing the sky racing series this year. Um, I'd say let's first let's dive into your, the, your selection for the u23 sky racing series. I know you kind of briefly touched on that. We can kind of expand and discuss that even further and then we can get into the rest of your 2024 season. And then I want to also, um, I want people to learn a little bit more about your 2023 season, like what you did broken arrow and and some. And kendall, your fifth place at Kendall like there's a lot we can dive into. So congratulations, and let's get into the sky racing selection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you. I uh, I honestly applied just kind of shot in the dark, me and my coach, who is my dad. Actually we uh we sort of planned out just apply for anything and everything, just so people are seeing my name consistently. I don't care if I get into any of it, just trying to get my name out there as much as possible. And I got they messaged me back and they were like hey, we'd love to have you and we're actually coming out with this brand new U23 series and we'd love for you to be a part of that.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's been amazing.
Speaker 2:They're going to help me with some travel fees, they're going to help me with accommodation and where I'm staying, and so it's really awesome that they're doing this for the U23, because I feel that a lot of at least brands go more deep into the current best people and they're not sort of building a future in that way, and so I think it's pretty awesome for someone to really say hey, let's highlight this.
Speaker 2:And you can tell it made waves too, because right after they did that, golden trail series soon came out with oh hey, we'll bring the U 23,. Uh, top two to the final this year, and so it's pretty awesome to see that change moving, and I'm one who really wants to create trail running as a new path and rather than I think a lot of people see it as oh I wasn't quite good enough to run on the roads or track, so I'm going to do trail, but I want it to be you graduate, high school or college, and you can do trail because the best people do that, or you can do road, do trail because the best people do that, or you can do road or track because the best people do that as well.
Speaker 2:So I really want it to be a main pathway.
Speaker 1:You're part of this like new wave dude, like you know, just like you head on, like the Europeans generally come from more of a mountain background where you know, maybe they're collegiate athletes but a lot of times they just grew up phenomenal skiers and just surviving in the mountains, and that's kind of the way, whereas this americans uh, there's a small faction of us that played like other sports, like soccer, football and other team sports, and then there's a lot of cross-country runners. But you did you play, or sorry, did you run in college at all or no?
Speaker 2:so I actually made the decision to run trails instead of running in college I fucking love, I fucking love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. It wasn't the easiest decision because obviously in America specifically, there's this pathway carved for you. You run in cross country track in high school. If you're pretty good, you go run in college and then you kind of are left in the dark there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of ambiguity, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I've always loved the trails and sort of did it in the summer as a good cross-country training, and when I got to my senior year in high school I was fitter than I've ever been. Nothing ever really clicked for me and I sort of just took that as a sign to go to the trails. Because my senior year I probably one of the performances I'm most proud of but aren't out there at all because they're not an ultra signup is the XTERRA 21K national championship.
Speaker 2:And I took second there in my senior year of high school and that was like in the middle of my cross country season, like I did that. And then that week I also PR in the five K and I was like, whoa, maybe, maybe, maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Is the trail stuff? Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:Dude, I that's amazing Like so you. So I think I've met your dad, jeremy, right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have, I have. I have chatted with your dad before.
Speaker 2:Super knowledgeable, incredibly knowledgeable no-transcript and that was kind of it, but it was always. It never really was a total path until my junior year of high school, sort of navigating. That was right after COVID happened, and so my season just got trashed. I ran slow.
Speaker 1:I don't know what was going on. This is crazy time. Crazy time in the world, Right, right.
Speaker 2:And one day I finished my race and I just said, fuck this, I'm going to do the trails. And neither of us had thought of it until that and we both kind of put off a little light bulb in our heads and were like, whoa, we could actually what if.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, and so, as it came more and more to a reality, he's pushed it more and more and he's all, uh, supported me a whole lot, getting to races and stuff and helping me find the races to join. The first time I did broken arrow in 2022, I was actually on the wait list and probably not going to make it, and he's really good at making things happen. He reached out to the RDs. Brendan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brendan Madigan.
Speaker 2:The guy's awesome. He said, let him in, we're stoked to have him. And after the race he gives you a hug and he's just stoked for you.
Speaker 1:So, shout out Brendan Madigan too, dude, I have to have them on here, it's, but I this year I was going to go back to broken arrow decided not to, just because I wanted to like focus mainly on the circ series. But, man, like you're going back this year, right?
Speaker 2:I am yes such a party it's, it's just, it's an unreal. You just see everyone, because western states is that following week, so everyone's there and I think I even noticed this year jim walmsley will be making an appearance in the vk before his western states.
Speaker 1:That race dude you're and the and the 23k man is just like the vk and the 23k are so stacked like yeah, oh man, which events did you race last? I did the iron face last year. Oh yeah, I just threw up a little parody, did something a little bit different. Dude, what a technically difficult race. I wanted to do something that I was like okay, and I knew in my heart that I would be better at a running race, because I don't really like climbing.
Speaker 2:Do you have piranhas and stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I decided to do it, just because it scared me a little bit. It was different, it was fun. Um, max King, you know, had like kind of a pretty stout course record there, so I wanted to try and chase something like that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Uh, sage ran a grid race there, so I was like, man, let's, let's see what we can do. Uh, do the midday start, cause like 12 o'clock. There is like one o'clock here. Right, it was late yeah, I didn't. I did not like that. I struggled actually with my hydration a little bit because of that. Like it kind of threw me off. I didn't like hydrate properly.
Speaker 2:It was just a weird race, you go one at a time, too right, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you start in like time, that's another thing is like I think I get the most out of myself when I'm racing other people um, and like you can kind of all start at once and you kind of gauge your effort off of that. And we started in like in the groups. So I started with Alex King he used to run for Solomon and Adrian Ballinger, so I started with them in the first group and yeah, dude it was just it was unique, it was different.
Speaker 1:It wasn't what I. How did I say this? It wasn't what I thought it was going to be. It was a lot less running, um, and a lot more climbing, and that threw me for a loop, because I'm a much better runner than I am a climber.
Speaker 2:Right. That's why I was like fuck, this is really this is really difficult.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I think my my via for out of time was dog shit, but like I to get off the via ferrata fast. Um, and I practiced on the via. I went to uray and practiced out there practicing the royal gorge, and it's just, I don't know like I feel like, unless you grow up doing it, it is. It is just awkward and a little bit difficult, it's it's not like scrambling or anything like that. It's like more grabbing these metal rungs and then pulling this metal thing and switching your carabiner over.
Speaker 1:It's unique, it's different so I highly recommend the race. It's different yeah, I want to get out of your. I think I would have done much better in like in the 23k or 11k or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, but anyway, broken arrow is super fun. What a blast. Um, so, not to pivot too hard, I do want to get into. So how is your season constructed? I knew you're going back to broken arrow this year and we can dive into. You know you had a great race there last year, so we can kind of get into that later. But how has your season construction? You're you're going to be racing.
Speaker 2:What was the race in may? Uh, sky race day. Math the scene.
Speaker 1:I think is how you pronounce it Where's that.
Speaker 2:So that one, I honestly don't know the city. It's in France.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's in Europe. We know we're in Europe, it's in Europe.
Speaker 2:It's in Europe, it's in France. Um, I'm flying into Leon and then driving about an hour and a half from there. It's probably one of the most stacked sky races in the series, and that's sort of where we always try and put me is just throw me into the fire and see what happens, see if something, something amazing happens, one of these times and getting getting to know these people, so it's gonna be a fairly stacked race, uh do you know jackson cole is? I don't know jackson.
Speaker 1:So jackson, I just had him on the pod. He'll be he'll. His episode will actually come out just one before you. I gotta get you guys connected. He runs for sportiva also, oh cool.
Speaker 1:Um, he's a killer dude yeah he's a good dude, like really, really good dude, um, he ran a lot of the series last year. I can't remember off the top of my head exactly which races he did, um, but he did give me a lot of insight. One of the things we did dive deeply into was a lot of his specific training that he did for a lot of the races yeah um, but yeah, he's, and I think he. What the hell was it? Old tracks matterhorn, old tracks extreme was one of the ones he did.
Speaker 2:Okay, um which that one looks amazing is that on the list, or it? I wish it was it. They gave us a list of u23 okay, specific ones and that one. That one was on my original list. It was not on their u23 list and I figured I had to save a few bucks and not make it out this year?
Speaker 1:Is it going to be a lot of back and forth, or how does that?
Speaker 2:So actually I'm just for the U23,. You only need two races to qualify for the final. Okay, and I don't know how good I have to do with those, but the first one's going to be that one we were just talking about in May. And then second one is going to be, uh, in july in peru oh, okay, jackson, I think is going to that one oh yeah, I'm probably able to be sure you said that, yeah, you'll get to meet him cool heck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I gotta get you guys connected super, super cool. Um, yeah, dude, I hear the peru one is dope like. Yeah, really, really dope.
Speaker 2:It looks amazing. Uh, it's hard to get higher than you get in Colorado. The high point of that course is, I think, 14.8. Wow, you start at about 10.
Speaker 1:What the hell?
Speaker 2:So it's surprisingly high. I'm going to have to spend a lot of time on pikes this year.
Speaker 1:It's 321s, dude, yeah, yep, wow, so okay, I did not realize it was that high.
Speaker 2:I know, when I signed up I was like I don't know, this will be fun. Yeah, it'll be really interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean you've run the Ascent a couple of times. Yeah, been up there. So it's Technically we live in one of the best places probably the best place in the country to train for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if you want to attack some 14ers, let let me know, because I'll be out there.
Speaker 1:let's do it, dude, let's do it yeah, I gotta get up high, but you know I do. It's funny on that route, especially at pikes. Uh, I always struggle on that, like that section right above bar camp where you start what is? I can't remember the name of those switchbacks, but it's just before before I hit a frame. Yep, because they're like runnable. Yeah but.
Speaker 2:But you're tired, you're tired and you're just starting to like get into a higher altitude.
Speaker 1:That's where I always struggle, interesting I.
Speaker 2:I found myself struggling the first until I get to bar camp. Okay, both years.
Speaker 1:Once I hit bar camp, it turned around for me see, dude, I feel like that race starts out so fucking quick yeah, eli, and them like running up the w's at like eight minutes seven minute pace and it's like so fast for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a hard, that's a. That's a. That's a difficult race to nail. It's something I've thought about for like many years now and and this year I thought was going to be the year I was going to do it, but I was like I'm going to be tired by september right, it's another year.
Speaker 1:It's late, it's very late, it is yeah okay, so to the race in peru sounds awesome. Let's. Let's dive a little bit into your. I'm bouncing around a lot, but, like, let's dive a little bit into your training for it. Like one of the things that jackson was really insightful with with me was like we got into the discussion on the incline and we were talking about, like because he's got had the up down record on the incline and he's like a top 10 overall holder on the incline, and he was explaining to me like he's like, oh, you can't just go hard on the ascent, like you have to send it going down because, like, there's just so much competition and you have to be ready for those ascents and descents. Like, have you been doing a lot of stuff like super steep shit or like what have you been working on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've actually did a big workout on the incline just the other day. I did um all of the bailouts. So up first bailout, second, third and then all the way around the top. Um, I have a couple spots, cheeky spots, in North shine Canyon where I've been practicing my super steep stuff off trail.
Speaker 1:Okay, um yeah, it's, you've been, you've been. You know what you're doing, then yeah, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:I don't do it as often as maybe I should, and I think this first one is going to be kind of a rude awakening, but it'll. It'll prepare me for learn. Anyway, you gotta write yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that he uh may was really interesting because we got into the discussion of like the difference between people get confused with the sky running series is versus the golden trail series and he goes no, no, no, two very separate things like the golden trail series is much more catered to, like more of the marathon runner.
Speaker 1:In a lot of ways it's fast, it's speedy, um, whereas like he's, like you're not really getting any different than like a variance of like a 10 to 12 minute mile a lot of times in these sky races, just because, yes, your great adjusted pace is going to be in the six and seven minute, but, like a lot of times it's just a slower, harder, steeper, different kind of race because the technicality yeah, so yeah I'm, I'm excited the the downhills look kind of scary at some parts, so I'm excited to see I've tested myself I don't get vertigo, I play.
Speaker 2:I played on some clips, so so so I hope, I hope it works out.
Speaker 1:Lots of scrambles. Have you been up on blodgett at all Playing up there? I actually have never run blodgett.
Speaker 2:What yeah?
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, I haven't, months ago and I hadn't gone back since. But like man watch, it's so much fun. Like the uh. There's like a uh actually for sky racing. I feel like it's perfect because, yeah, there's a boulder field. Like that's where I'm gonna go. I shouldn't give too much inside baseball, but like um, one of the the courses I'll race at cirque series, brighton has a uh, has a significant boulder field okay you got to go up to like mount millifacent, millifacent, something like that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, there's like a pretty tangible boulder field for up and down and I was like, ah, that is a perfect spot to like practice like scrambling good to know yeah, if that's that's like feel, I feel like that's something that's hard to like replicate unless you like you do it a lot yeah, yeah it's, it's true, especially when we're snowed out yeah, for most of the winter, it's true, and Blodgen, is it too high?
Speaker 1:It's like 9,000, something like that, so it's not too high. Yeah, I think it's like 90. I think the high point is like 93, 94. Does it dry out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's dried out now, oh good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of it's. So obviously the North Face isn't but um, so you might have some ice. I was thinking about going over there tomorrow to check it out, but it's been a while yeah, I've been sticking to the incline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a good time. Yeah, everyone's cheering you on the whole time. It's. It's a party up there too dude.
Speaker 1:I do. You know what the hell is his name? Bode gross. Do you know who that? Is yes, or ollie and ollie bro, I was on the incline the other day. They're monsters, dude. They're fucking good man.
Speaker 2:I gotta get them on the podcast like I was amazed, plus like I think they had their dad with them yeah, he was running up the incline I think all lee has been sponsored by solomon since he was probably eight years old like okay, all right he ran. He's a monster. There's no I.
Speaker 1:He runs uphill faster than most people I've seen him on like the podium of a lot of circuit. Yeah, I know he, he was at broken arrow this year. I like I just happened. That was the first time I ever came across him and I've seen him, I guess, on strava before, but I never put it two and two together and I was like whoa, yeah, he put.
Speaker 2:He beat andy in the ascent this year all he did. Yeah, he's 18 oh my god, yeah, another young killer man, we got we young uh group here in the Colorado Springs.
Speaker 1:It's pretty fast the contingents do. The contingent is is deep man. So on that, uh, on sponsorship, actually, let's dive into that a little bit. You're working with Dina fit right now, right? Yes?
Speaker 2:So I'm on their trail. Hero ambassador team Cool, so no contracts or anything. Hero ambassador team cool, so no contracts or anything. Um, but they are. They're awesome to work with they. They sent me a bunch of free stuff. I get a good discount on the website. I like their shoes a lot, which is always what you hope for yeah, no, dude, they got some good ones.
Speaker 1:The ultra 100s, I think, were the ones that I've worn before.
Speaker 2:They're pretty, pretty solid yeah, yeah, I, I'm a big fan of the alpine and this year actually, they're coming out with a whole new line. They made up a brand new foam and it's feeling a lot. So a lot of people are like, oh, I hate Dina fit shoes, but go check them out again this year because they, their new stuff is looking pretty good, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Michael Casabria. Yeah Casarubia, yeah Casarubia.
Speaker 2:Michael.
Speaker 1:Casarubia, if you're listening, you got to tag him. We'll get him in there. Cool man Cool, who else are you working with? I saw on your Instagram. I can't remember the name of the other two brands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm working with Squirrels Nut Butter on their elite team. Sweet, yeah, I'm a big fan. When I was living in flag, I went out to their warehouse and there's like eight people who work there and they have their stuff all over the world. They're all super kind. They gave me a cool tour. They just baked cookies and gave me some cookies they got dogs, all over the place.
Speaker 2:it's, it's this if you ever get a chance to go, go hit up the squirrels nut butter warehouse, because it's just a good time in there, wow.
Speaker 1:Dude, I haven't been to Flagstaff in years, but it's on my list. Everybody keeps telling me you got to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a roadrunner's dream. Trails are fun, but they're better here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's what everybody says. It's a little bit flatter there. It's very flat. There one, one or two mountains okay, yeah, there's what l is it. And then you got humphries the whole humphries range is.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and then I'm also working with a company called reacting usa and they make the treadmill that moves on multiple planes so it's not just up and down, it moves, moves side to side and it really mimics a trail run.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And they make a lot of really cool connective stuff, and so I've been doing a lot of that and found my downhills improved a ton.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we've been doing a lot of cool. If you watch Formula One or anything like that and they do the reactive lights and stuff, yeah, they make. If you watch formula one or anything like that and they do the reactive lights and stuff, they make those kinds of things too, and so I've been playing with that a lot and it's it's helping a lot. Yeah, I've noticed a massive difference and just amount of the times I roll my ankle, my speed going downhill, my confidence it's. It's been really awesome that's cool.
Speaker 1:That's one of the things like I I've dealt with this past year. Speaking, and we were earlier I was joking with you about getting old and I was like I had like some crazy inner ear vestibular injury this year and like my balance was fucked up for like three, probably almost two or three months. How did that happen? So I do listen to this, so the only thing I can think of. So I was told by the doctor I had an inner ear infection that I didn't know. Like when you have an inner ear infection, like I guess it kind of phases your balance a little bit, I didn't even know I had it and I guess as an athlete we have good immune systems relatively, so like certain things don't you don't see symptoms, if you will okay, so like what happened was is, rather than like have a symptom of it.
Speaker 1:It like attacked the nerve whoa that goes to my brain for balance like kind of wild that's, and it started it started like two days before christmas. It was like chris, two days before christmas eve actually rose and I were on a like a just a nice little long run going up to bar camp and like we started on the w's and I was like falling all over the place going uphill really I was like what is?
Speaker 1:this is weird. Um, we get down and I'm like dude, I'm like chugging water, I'm eating. I'm like give me all your food.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm thinking like is this a weird altitude or something? What is?
Speaker 1:wrong with me? Um, dude, two days later still doesn't go away, keeps going. So of course you climb on the internet and you start, you know, doing a bunch of research and I'm like looking at him, like I've heard I found this thing, like it's called BPPV, and I'm like this only happens in old people. This can't be me. And sure enough, I was wrong. I like go to a couple of things. I go to call to my buddy he was a PT I go to my primary, the, and so finally, my buddy sean child to sean rimmer.
Speaker 2:Episode one um dude sean's a fucking miracle worker.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and he was like dude, it sounds something. He sounds like something's wrong with your inner ear. You might want to like talk to someone. So I wound up going to like a true like specialist for it, um, and she like put these funky goggles on and like dude, it was wild because my um, she was like checking my gate.
Speaker 1:Basically, and maybe you can understand this a little bit too when it comes to like the stabilization stuff, it was my, my gaze stabilization, so my right eye was not tracking properly because it was wrong with my left middle ear, and so, like when she would like do this stuff with my right eye, my right eye was like kind of track all over the place and she goes oh yeah, you have like significant nerve damage, um, so I don't know she did a couple more tests and then basically she like dude, for like two months I had to uh like, look at this card and I would like tape them all over this room and I would like be looking like doing all these like eye stabilization things and, sure enough, eventually eventually came back, wow Like now I'm good and now it's just a matter of like just being comfortable, like running on technical stuff again.
Speaker 2:Well, and I still like you're good dude, I took a nasty that day.
Speaker 1:We ran with the cut the cheese run club.
Speaker 2:I felt, you felt that day. I felt that day 100. But like if I'm not paying attention, like, yeah, you're gonna eat shit for sure. Yeah, yeah, jeez pretty wild.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that's, that's scary, getting old sucks, dude. Uh, all right, sorry, I went all over the place. Where were we? Uh, all right. So we talked about your sponsors. Uh, so, yeah, um, let's dive a little bit. And we talked about the sky sky racing series and your training for it. Uh, let's talk about broken arrow, and I like to like put that in tandem with broken arrow and the Pike's peak ascent. We can kind of talk about your 2023 season. Uh, as well as Kendall, cause I love Kendall.
Speaker 1:It's like my favorite it's a great race, one of my favorite races.
Speaker 2:And it's crazy.
Speaker 1:So bad yeah. You literally feel like when you come down, you feel like your legs are in cement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's, it's crazy. I was so messed up, I uh, I took a wrong turn. Even that is yeah. How's that even possible? You're looking at me funny instead of when you you're supposed to make the right on I think it's, I can't remember if it's main instead of making that right yeah, I like kept going straight and some guy was like yelling at me really yeah, I was out of jesus.
Speaker 2:You get to 13 000 feet, it's a high race yeah so yeah, how was your? Yeah, how was your?
Speaker 1:2023. Uh, um kendall mountain race it was good.
Speaker 2:It was good. I um had a good group there. It it was really fun. I was working with Kieran Ney. Was there? Noah Williams, I think was there. One of the Western guys who's really good was also there. It's Cole Campbell, probably.
Speaker 1:Cole Campbell yeah, he's a beast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he came out of nowhere. He just came onto the scene but we were all running and about halfway up the climb, kieran like all right, who's still here. And then we all had a little roll call there, and then that was when noah and him dropped the hammer, really, yeah, and I, uh was kind of alone the rest of the climb, and then me and cole were working together for a little bit and then, yeah, the downhill, downhill was good did you.
Speaker 1:I mean you finished in fifth place, you finished, I think. No shade to Kieran, but I think you finished ahead of Kieran. I did. Yeah, you caught him on the downhill. I caught him on the downhill, so he hammered the uphill His downhill.
Speaker 2:I know he was coming off an injury, but I also know that he's a lot more of a climber than a descender. But yeah, that was my second time ever beating him, so even if he's a little injured, I'm still going to take that win. Kieran, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:He's a good dude. I have reached out to him. We're going to have him Next time he comes out to Monument. We're going to have him on the pod. He's an awesome guy.
Speaker 2:Oh dude. He's going to be at, I think on the start list for snowbird this year.
Speaker 1:So for the running championship, oh awesome, yeah, so yeah, I raced him in broken arrow too and also pike's peak, and so I I love that guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's awesome, it's cool dude I looked up to him a lot. I, uh, I remember when he told me because he was working at colorado running company, I went in for shoes and he was talking to me this is right when he was switching from college track and cross into trails, okay, and I was like wow, that is the coolest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 1:Like I want to try that yeah so kieran he was one of those guys who got me inspired, for sure did he had a really fast like um, just like a scent in the sport in a lot of ways coming out like from college, like he yeah, solomon picked him up and like I had this actually the episode that drops this friday. You'll get a little bit more of the backstory on that.
Speaker 2:Uh, because brian whitfield oh yeah, he kind of bridges that.
Speaker 1:Another great guy, yeah, yeah um, yeah, he kind of bridges that gap and tells a little bit more of that story.
Speaker 2:But yeah, he had a like.
Speaker 1:It's just interesting. It's very, very kind of cool how connected everybody is in what a small little world.
Speaker 2:It is. It's a very small world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude. So okay, I'm sorry, I'm bouncing.
Speaker 2:No worries.
Speaker 1:It's our first like long-term conversation.
Speaker 2:Great yeah.
Speaker 1:So much to ask you. Broken Arrow last year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was crazy because we got an hour within the race. I was warming up, I literally had my pants off ready to go, and then they hey, we're going to have an hour and a half delay. And then because there was like really heavy winds on that top, and obviously it's not.
Speaker 2:It was supposed to get worse and worse. So those people who are getting up there in three or four hours, they were going to be. It was horrible. They were going to be in a scary spot. It was 80 plus mile an hour winds, I think on the top where that ladder is. And if you're not a mountain person, you're climbing up a ladder with 80 miles an hour.
Speaker 1:That's terrifying, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and then they said it was going to be a 30 minute delay, and so it was just how long is this delay, when are we actually going to start? And then it ended up being, I think, two hours from the initial start time and they changed the course to, uh, two loops of the 11 K, which unfortunately was perfectly wrong for what I was training for, because I had just been practicing long climbs, long descents, and this 11 K twice was just sprint up, sprint down, sprint up.
Speaker 1:It was rent, I saw. I ran the course the day after. I think it was that Monday. Yeah, I ran the course before we left.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, I didn't go sating the snow sliding, sliding and that was another thing too is like, actually, this is a good question I have for you. So when I ran it, I ran it pretty early in the morning, it was like 8 am, right, and it was before like the sun had hit some of that snow, okay, and it was ice man it was it was super slick.
Speaker 1:It was ice when you had gotten to it. I know, with the two hour delay was it a little like a list more slushy when we raced it was basically swimming.
Speaker 2:Okay, it was nice when you had gotten to it. I know, with the two hour delay was it a little like a list?
Speaker 1:more slushy.
Speaker 2:When we raced, it was basically swimming. Okay, it was wet and it was that super slippery wet where you have no idea where your foot's going. Yeah, and so it was. It was really interesting. I had a lot of fun with it.
Speaker 1:Um, so I would have rather that than the ice. I was like, yeah, and that's not something you want to fall on either, because the ice I was like dude, I was like a butt-sucker it was so bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's not something you want to fall on either because I'm sure it was sharp.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, super sharp. Yeah, I was just like, and I was amazed. I was like oh, it really sucks for whoever's got to run up here in Western states.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, that's rough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always forget art man. Oh, dude, that's a good. It's a good good, like I don't know. I felt like the two loops were cool, the one loop. I thought, though, like when I talked to I had not been on the entirety of the loop. Okay, but what I've been told by many people is that it's legit, it's absolutely beautiful, it's so fun, it's an awesome loop.
Speaker 2:by the time you're up there you can see, uh, the lake tahoe and everything. But so I was kind of bummed cause I really and I had a done it the year before, so I like to compare and see how my times went. And so it was. It was kind of interesting. I really enjoyed it. It was true sky running Cause it was just none of it was on trail, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, you go up that like there's like wood chips on the on that first. Um, yeah, you go up that like there's like wood chips on the on that first, like after you get off the road and you kind of like start getting off to the grass, yeah, first big climb. Yeah, it was like wood chips and shit. I was like what is it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and then they carved stairs into the snow and yeah it was. It was pretty crazy race it was um, let's dive into that a little bit.
Speaker 1:So you were kind of with a lot of the same guys too, like I know cole campbell was there. Yeah, I know kieran was there yep um, like any nerves on the start line, like when you're in front of a group that big, yeah, and it's that serious of a race, like do you get nervous at all?
Speaker 2:so normally I don't. Normally I go into a race pretty confident. I go into every race thinking I'm gonna win, whether it's the truth or not. This race I was actually really nervous, I think. Just sort of having the extra couple hours to just sit and wait really kind of got to me a little bit okay. So I I haven't felt that nervous in a race pretty much ever, and that's another one that goes out way too fast like we're going out at five-minute pace across that parking lot and then it's just straight up, oh.
Speaker 1:I forgot. You guys start at the parking lot, okay yeah, and then you hit the road, because the road then, like you, get like a little bit of a descent before you start climbing again. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you go up a pretty gnarly little road down it and then it's just up yeah, up yeah. And I have a thing I, I won out too fast, probably. Um, don't we all yeah, except for, except for all lee. Back to him, he, he always is like why'd you go out so fast? And I'm like I, I don't know, I'm stoked man, I want to race, and so, yeah, that was my first time beating kieran, okay, so I was stoked about that. Um, I also became good friends with anna gibson okay, yeah starting in that race.
Speaker 2:We uh found ourselves sort of together in every single race that we raced this year, and so, wow, became friends with her.
Speaker 1:She's a badass. Yeah, I watched her finish along with taber. Shout out to taber we were cheering, cheering taber and eli on as they uh, eli fucking smoked that course too, and so did Tabor, I mean.
Speaker 2:Re-watching it. When I watched it on the live stream, I could not believe.
Speaker 1:Dude, he was running sub-five-minute pace on those descents. His descent was insane. What the fuck yeah.
Speaker 2:I felt like a deer on ice skates going down, that I've never run anything like it and he and he just was going Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know how some people can do that. Yeah, I like, at least like try to get my footing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:He was moving. Yeah, Okay, so dude and congratulations. I mean like to finish that high like that type of group, like that was pretty solid.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think I ended 29.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it nine. Yeah, it's pretty dude. I mean I'd say top 50 for a race like that, especially at your age, like you're what 20, I'm 20 and you were 19 when you raced it. Yes, dude, that's fucking yeah, thank you really I appreciate that so much longevity you've got a long ways to go, my friend. Like you've got like a long time to do this, so thank you, just getting started that's what we're focusing on too.
Speaker 2:just, I've actually never been injured. Knock on wood, knock on wood. I don't know if you can hear that that's not wood. Knock on anything, but yeah, it's our full focus so far has just been building base.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I haven't even really started doing a whole lot of workouts yet. Okay, in the trails, just getting my legs ready for mountains.
Speaker 1:Really, what is your like weekly? What does your week look like then?
Speaker 2:So the first year I did it was right off track season. So first time I raced broken arrow I had three mountain runs under my legs. Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you had a ton of speed, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I dropped a four 40 last mile. Wow, yeah, I was moving. But um, yeah, wow, yeah, I was moving, but um, yeah, mostly until this year because of the skyrunner series, I've just been focusing on getting out in the mountains, feeling what that feels like, learning everything, and I feel like all the way, even till. Probably this year was when I first started feeling like I could legitimately go do an easy run in the mountains and hit the right stimulus, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think and that's what it's hard for me, because I'm a racer, I'm super competitive, and so I always want to, I always want to win. I'm always talking to my dad coach and I'm like, hey, I need, we need to do these because I don't have enough of this, and I need to do this because I don't have enough of this. And he's like no, we're working on base, just like I've just been doing two years straight of just base pretty much Interesting.
Speaker 1:I like that approach. Man, like cause, this is the thing. Like you're still so young you're, and you have so much growth and so much time to go, like, why burn yourself out now, right?
Speaker 2:like, why burn yourself out now?
Speaker 1:right, right, I could go try and do heavy workouts, maybe win a few races, but I feel like we see a lot in our sport where people like kieran yeah, you know he burst onto the scene, got on solomon and then was injured for six months or so and it's tough man like those injuries are not easy to deal with, like even ace man we were, I know ace like made it public on the podcast that he was dealing with a possible Haglund's deformity. And that's that's probably from pre. That's obviously pre trail. That's from probably from track and field, like what that does to you, but it sucks, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tough. Uh, it's especially for a guy like him, man.
Speaker 1:He. That's it, dude. I, I just I really like that approach. I think, and I think it's a very smart approach. I think you're, uh, from a career perspective, you're, you're taking the, you and your dad, or like, have the right idea in mind.
Speaker 2:There's nothing about that, thank you yeah so wow.
Speaker 1:So like thrash and do you do like threshold days or anything like that, or it's just just having fun and base like when do you feel that?
Speaker 2:compelled to push is what I'm kind of so we do a lot of sort of workouts within workouts. So if we're focusing on descending for the day, he'll just say, all right, go out for an hour and a half and really hammer the descents, okay, something like that. Or go for just five minutes and then a 90 second little press. Five minutes, 90 second press, just sort of little fart lick style things that's pretty common.
Speaker 1:That's about like like, for instance, like my obviously my speed day doesn't look like that, but like my long run will where you'll have like five by I don't know something you do five by 20 seconds at 10k efforts, some shit like that right, I'm saying like, yeah, so that sounds, yeah, that sounds, building in little things here and there, a lot of weeks, our base, which are fun.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, this year I've actually started getting into workouts, having a lot of fun. We do some tempos and stuff, because a lot of my friends, uh, who I ran in with high school, run in college now. Okay, so I'll jump in their tempo sometimes, so keeping my, trying to keep my speed, because I think that's a thing that you should take advantage of when you're still still young, 20 years old, yeah, it's true, man, that's true.
Speaker 1:Oh, and it's very interesting to me, like I uh, like I said, I just like that approach and it's pretty, pretty neat do, you do a lot of long stuff like do you any, do you have any idea of like any plan to do ultras eventually, or stick to the short stuff for now?
Speaker 2:stick into the short stuff for now.
Speaker 2:Um, I think ultimately I would love to do 100 and maybe a 200 really yeah, when they talk about hallucinating like just because you ran so far, I, I feel like I need to taste that one time. Okay, uh, right now, probably for the next three or four years I'll probably stick to this 25 30k area and then maybe jump in a marathon one, but no rush to get up there, but I definitely I being such a fan of the sport I feel like I just need to feel what those people are feeling, because when they do those backyard ultras.
Speaker 2:You know four mile loops every hour on the hour. In my head it's like, oh yeah, I could run four miles every hour yeah, but just don't sit down in between.
Speaker 1:I imagine like dude.
Speaker 2:I need to see what it feels like.
Speaker 1:I think the hallucination part is like. That sounds somewhat fun.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's like the uh it sounds fun but, like it's the, the mountain runner in me is like yeah, I like to start my race at 10 and be done by like 1130 and then have the whole rest of my day to you. Know, you can play in the mountains or do whatever, but yeah, it's like that, um, I don't know, like we're a little bit of a diva myself, man, you know yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I love being out there. That's all I can say cool cool, um, all right.
Speaker 1:So we touched on your training. We talked about broken arrow. Let's talk about pikes, because I know you've done that now twice right twice yeah okay, and you? I mean what did you run? 240, something last year, 242 or 243. That's pretty solid, that's like very solid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:What did you do leading up to that Like? What was your training like?
Speaker 2:Probably. I think it lacked a little bit because I was trying to prepare for the ascent and then mammoth double Okay, and so it wasn't fully focused on just Pikes Peak. I was trying to be ready to do Mammoth. I think it was five days later, wow.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So it was really close together this time because I think it was Sunday to Saturday, and so I was doing a lot of mountain stuff, most Pikes Peak specific stuff. I started Devil's Playground up and over, did a lot of crag stuff, most Pikes Peak specific stuff. I started Devil's Playground up and over, did a lot of crag stuff.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Playing on the bar a lot. I did Elk Park. Have you done that?
Speaker 1:one before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just trying to be up high as much as I possibly can. I spend a lot of my time in North Shine Canyon though, yeah. One of our secret places, so don't go there. No, I'm just playing, but yeah, so probably not as much vert as I should have been getting, because I was focusing on some a lot of speed as well for mammoth because, that was a fast, fast, fast race, like I think we had one mile.
Speaker 1:That was a real mountain and then the rest was the road approaching and then the basically santa fe back everybody said like it was not only just fast, but like it was a strange course, like a lot of people got lost I don't know if I went the right way or not.
Speaker 2:If I'm being honest, like, like, I literally don't know. Really, it was well marked, but since it's so fast, it caused it to not be well marked, kind of thing, because if you're going at You're not looking Right. Five minute pace. Like I remember on the way down Max King had gotten lost, I think, because I feel like I wouldn't have been ahead of him at the climb If I was. I'm stoked, but we both came flying by this corner and this guy was like no, no, no, no, you got to come back.
Speaker 2:So we went probably 200 yards past this corner and it was just kind of like that all day. Thankfully I had somebody near me most of the time. Okay, so I think I went the right way, but it was really an interesting move for golden trail series to pick mammoth over the ascent.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I are you talking about this year?
Speaker 2:Yeah, For this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because that's actually how I found out. It wasn't even on the golden trail series. Was your dad? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're, we're not stoked that that mammoth race, especially for how much of a it just didn't go well, last year, I feel like I've heard.
Speaker 1:I heard some complaints, let's put it that way I heard some complaints. I also heard complaints about the Flagstaff race too, the fraud of the previous year that like that, wasn't that race sucked. By the way.
Speaker 2:I was living in Flagstaff at the time and did it and it sucked. We flagstaff at the time and did it and it sucked. We just went straight up the ski hill and the grass was about hip height and so you couldn't see where your feet were landing.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that's not fun no that's not fun, no um well, and I I get why they chose it like.
Speaker 2:Shout out to tim tolson yeah, I think he's a great guy.
Speaker 1:He's put yeah good dude putting on good stuff, a big piece of the community. I, I don't know, I'm like very, I would even go as far as to say like religious about my course selection. Like it's got to be a good course, yeah. Like it's got to be an either a natural loop, like it can't be out and back. You could be doing an out and back or anything like that, like I and I know, like I saw the loop that they put it through for golden trail, yeah, for the mammoth race, but I was just like it's mammoth. There should be a lot more vert like what is this?
Speaker 1:you know?
Speaker 2:and how did chad hall, the guy who lives there?
Speaker 1:he got lost, get lost, yeah.
Speaker 2:The man got lost the local, yeah oh yeah, noah came flying by me at one point. He's like hey, I got lost. Like it was just constant, like of people passing me who I was like should they be?
Speaker 1:behind me and I was like you get lost.
Speaker 2:Yup, so it was. It was a lot of road too, and I'm I'm kind of a stingy trail runner where I'm like this is a fucking trail race.
Speaker 1:Why am I on a road right now? You're talking about like dirt road, or was it like a fire road? Or was it just like paved asphalt road?
Speaker 2:there, on the way to the climb, a lot of paved asphalt yeah.
Speaker 1:That was a bummer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we sort of it was road for the first two miles, did about two miles in the trails, another two miles on the road and then you did that really big, steep climb. I think it was a thousand over a thousand feet in a mile. So it was a proper, proper steep climb, and then after that it was fire roads and bomber downhill just flying down, yeah. So wow, that's cool I had to go downstairs at the end and I was not stoked.
Speaker 1:But stairs is the worst man you feel your quads there dude, you know it's funny like I. I just started running downhill on the incline like, just like within the last like two weeks.
Speaker 2:I've never done it.
Speaker 1:It's horrible I have a friend that does the incline like every day and it's funny Cause, like on any normal and I think he would agree with this like any run, like obviously, like I'm going to flip his ass at any run, but like when it comes to like running down the incline like he looks at me because I'm like, I wouldn't say scared, but like I'm like when you come down the steep part it's deep, I'm like oh my god, I'm gonna die.
Speaker 1:Like and they're not big stairs no, and like, especially like you know, and it's probably like a like a little bit of, uh, you know me being, me being me, but like with the you know my balance thing, I'm like oh fuck, I'm gonna fall over and roll down this thing, I'm gonna die and you don't stop falling, if you start yeah, you're going all the way down.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you should try it sometime.
Speaker 1:It's uh it's the first, so like I've done it now three times in the last week and a half, okay, and like each time, gets a little bit a little better, yeah, you start to get caught. I know Jackson sold me on it because he was like oh yeah, for those really steep races he goes, you're going to want to commit on the downhill too.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, I'm like one of those people like I'll go super hard on the uphill and then like just kind of chill, watch off and like, all right, that was one you know segment and, like you know, I'll take it to take it easy because I'm not trying to die, you know yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Have you, have you ever run with ace?
Speaker 1:uh, actually only once with uh, what do you call it? Um, oh, with the cut the cheese thing. Oh yeah, so that was that was it.
Speaker 2:He's terrifying to run with downhill. He, there's nothing. There's nobody I've ever seen like it. There is two people I know who are that good, and it's him and my sister actually. Oh yeah, yeah, she is, she's just like it, but they have no self-preservation, it feels like they have no self-preservation, it's just they're.
Speaker 1:I don't even know how they go that fast it's funny like I am made to run like I am and I've even been told by my coaches, like as much as I put, like more work and emphasis on the uphill, to be a better uphill runner, I'm a better downhill runner. Yes, some of us are just made that way right but I'm not a good technical downhill runner.
Speaker 1:Yeah like if this is like uh, you know, like I don't even ran on mount herman road before yes okay, so like, if you're like, you can run very fast down the herman road or even like where you and I first, uh, when you and I saw each other last time um the that road on in palmer lake yeah, balanced rock, balanced you could fly down that like that stuff I'm good on. But like if it's, if we're talking like single track with rocks all over the place yeah, I'm not. I get it. You have to like work on that interesting I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of the opposite Really. I'm better on single track, kind of gnarly trails.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And those super steep dirt roads freak me out.
Speaker 1:Really yeah. Have you ever run down People close your ears Longs Ranch Road?
Speaker 2:No, I have not. All right, I'll take you there. Okay, cool, it's near Manitou.
Speaker 1:So I've got this amazing route. I'm not going to give too much away. It involves the incline, super steep. I actually like to take podcast guests on there, so it's fun, nice, awesome. I'll take you out there one day. Yeah, dude, okay. So we went through the downhill, we went through Mammoth, we went through we didn't really All right. We went through mammoth, we went through. We didn't really all right.
Speaker 2:I want to go back to uh pike's peak, because like right you had like right a pretty decent little improvement from 2022.
Speaker 1:2023. Yeah, are you signed up for it this year?
Speaker 2:I am, you are yeah, I'm supporting my local race, so I I'm good friends with ryan linder and jordan. Okay, they're the I don't know their exact role. They're somewhat of race directors for pike's peak and I always want to support them because they've supported me a whole lot and so shout out them. Uh, the first year I did pike's peak, honestly it just didn't go great.
Speaker 2:I feel like everybody says that yeah like I just I probably went out too fast. I felt terrible all the way until bar camp and I'm someone who does really well off of negative stuff. So I was running and you kind of get those flat rollies before bar camp or to bar camp, kind of Well, this guy who was running near me goes wow, you really don't like to run uphill, huh. And I was like what do you?
Speaker 2:mean he's like you were flying on the downhills but you're walking the uphills and I was like, all right, fuck you. And so I kind of went on a little bit of a rampage. At that point passed probably 20 or 30 people and the next up those what we were talking about earlier up past Bar Camp.
Speaker 2:I hate those switchbacks, yeah for whatever reason they, I thrived off of it and just hammered home and then this year I felt like I went out a lot better. I did a lot more specific training within that first two miles. So I did an effort where I did up ruxton yeah three by the first two miles of the course.
Speaker 2:Okay, just seeing which pace felt the best kind of thing, and so I definitely went out a lot smarter. I was surprised that my time wasn't significantly faster, because I felt like I had really done it a lot better yeah but it was crazy because me and anna Gibson, we were um pretty much together from those switchbacks up to the top.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And in front of us the guy was five minutes ahead.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:And behind us, five minutes behind.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, you guys were no man.
Speaker 2:So we, yeah, we found ourselves like all alone up there just trying to push each other Five minutes.
Speaker 1:You're not in five minutes, you're not. I mean, you're not gonna close, you're not closing that?
Speaker 2:yeah, especially above tree line, right there's only so fast that you can run yeah, up there and so I think this year I'll definitely have a pretty significant increase, although I was really happy with the effort. Um, I had a lot of fun. It was beautiful that some of my favorite pictures I've seen just with the snow, the, I had a lot of fun. It was beautiful that some of my favorite pictures I've seen just with the snow, the snow the snow was surprisingly fast.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I think I've heard matt carpenter say that it the snow makes it faster yeah, that's what remy said too.
Speaker 1:Remy said it as well, and I I don't know why.
Speaker 2:I think it's just because you're not thinking about your step at all.
Speaker 1:You just have that space to just push how much snow was up. There was a couple inches, like was it enough to cover like any rocks that would protrude, so you can kind of just not even have to look down. Right, it was like that it was.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, it was pretty. It wasn't. You weren't seeking into it, though, okay, because it was pretty warm, yeah. So it was all super packed down and, yeah, honestly, the conditions were really good. Wow, I was surprised because the only thing was that lower bar was pretty rutted out and destroyed, just from how rainy.
Speaker 1:It was last year.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about that so I feel like the beginning of the course was slower, but that upper part was definitely you're gonna lose another surprisingly fast five or ten seconds this year with that new boulder. That's there yeah, oh my god, that thing's gnarly. I couldn't believe it. I don't know where those kinds of boulders come from what do you? Mean like where did that? Where was that came from from the upper part, where was it sitting like slid down?
Speaker 1:yeah, like dude, like I was just talking to a friend about this, because we were just there like two or three days ago and we were chatting about it and he was like dude, that boulder is gonna cut loose like if, what? Like if we get bad rains again this year, like, yeah, lower bar is gonna get fucked up, like there's just like and if there's one of them, there's probably more by like sticks and stones.
Speaker 2:It's pretty gnarly up there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know Like it's. I do. I made a comment because, like everybody's been posting about it on Facebook and like I made a comment underneath, I was like, if they use dynamite, can we, you know? Can there be? Can we watch?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right A viewing party.
Speaker 1:There's not too many like opportunities to use dynamite in 2024, but like if there's that's.
Speaker 2:That's one of them, this is one. Yeah, they should have done it. On new year's, they shoot the fireworks off the top, blow up the boulder, up the boulder. Yeah, I think they're gonna leave it.
Speaker 1:To be honest with you, I mean I know they said they're assessing and like they'll, probably they're gonna have to make a decision soon, because what bartrell mountain races in july? Yeah, first, like tangible effort where people are going to be going up and down. And there's I mean it's such a small choke point, like there's that little section where I feel like it's much easier going up and it's a little bit of a pain in the ass and you're coming down going down.
Speaker 2:You come around a corner, it's right in front of your face.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can like yeah you can like, fall to the side like there's like actually like, if you're not paying attention, people are going to fall over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how they move it. Dynamite is probably it.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty stoked if they use dynamite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we should start a petition. Dynamite the boulder.
Speaker 1:Obviously I would do a live podcast viewing party.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there we go. Oh man, okay. So I'm stoked that you're going party.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go, oh man, okay. So I'm stoked that you're going back this year Like that's, that's, that's awesome and it is bummer. That's not going to be golden trail race, but still dope.
Speaker 2:It's a special race.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, it is.
Speaker 2:It's um last year was I ran seven minutes faster this year and placed the exact same, Really, yeah. I mean it's a super competitive race. It got even more stacked and unfortunately we'll have a little dip this year. But I think a lot.
Speaker 1:I have a feeling a lot of locals will be this year. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I'm expecting top 10 at least.
Speaker 1:Hell, yeah, yeah, dude, sure for sure, especially with like I wonder who's coming back. I've been checked, I'm guessing a lot of the locals will be there yeah, like, I'm sure, like joe, I haven't asked him, but I'm sure he'll go brian whitfield might go for a I don't think I asked him either. I don't know. I gotta re-listen to our podcast.
Speaker 2:I don't know what brian's focus is, because he crushed that dude.
Speaker 1:I feel like he did so good there. If that was me, I don't know if I'd ever go back never go back.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I could redo that I took was he fit, he was eighth but still like eighth in the gold trail 215, the most stacked field ever I think he beat patrick kip and yago.
Speaker 1:We talked about it on the pod, okay like that guy won series and all. I'm pretty sure which is like the race of races right, what the fuck. But he also, brian, does 50ks too so he's a good dude and like a amazing athlete amazing, amazing athlete, yeah, um we got we got cool people here.
Speaker 1:We do have cool people, he's he listed off a couple of the races that he said he was doing. I think one of them was like the y east trail fest, which is like part of the like american golden trail series, that's in washington, nice, I forget what else he had he'll be at ram party. I don't think he said he was going back.
Speaker 2:I'll text him and I'll ask is the ram party, the 30k that's everyone's doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like there's a 30 and like a 55. I ran the 20 last year 20k does it just go up rampart road and then it's fast around the lake, or?
Speaker 1:no, it just goes up. So there's a saturday race and a sunday race. Both days have the same distances but are in different locations so like the saturday race starts at buffalo lodge, or buffalo the bus, buffalo bicycle place, yep, uh, near manitou, and uh, you run straight up into garden of the gods and then go up rampart and then come back down smoking fast really.
Speaker 1:In fact I might do it just because it'll be a good opportunity to kind of test, like, where those fire road legs are yeah, like ahead of uh circ that season, um, and then the sunday race is actually might even be more compelling, because you're on part of like rampart up there and you're like, well, it's actually dude, it might be, uh, above like part of that, above the clouds race, it's okay, in that like vicinity of where that is, and then you do run around part of um uh part of uh the rampart reservoir, speaking of a crazy race yeah, that above the clouds, that it was crazy.
Speaker 2:I was supposed to be there, were you, I was tired, that would have made it amazing. So I had run, so I had run. Mammoth took two or three weeks of minimal running, like a lot of, not even like any training, like honestly just laying down, and then ace was like hey, because we work together, and he was like, hey, there's this race, you got to come do it, and so I actually signed up the night before.
Speaker 2:I had to email the race director and let and he let me in, thankfully, but um, holy shit it was uh.
Speaker 1:All right, so we should preface this. It was the usatf colorado 10k championship.
Speaker 2:Uh, where you took what ninth yeah, fucking dope, it was crazy I know this because I just looked at your yeah, yeah, I hadn't run in two or three weeks and what did you run?
Speaker 1:Did you run, like what? 41, something like that, 39? It?
Speaker 2:was fast, 39 sounds right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was fast, we went out, so it's mostly road. If I'm being honest with you, it's like two miles of road or maybe like one and a half miles of road and then three miles trail. One and a half miles a road and then three miles trail, one and a half mile road back. It's terrible and we like I couldn't believe how fat, like everyone came. It was like half like the top 10 was probably half. True, badass trail runners, like one of the guys was like top 10 at does it cool again?
Speaker 1:I know grant cool again. Was there, grant Culligan was there, grant Culligan was?
Speaker 2:there.
Speaker 1:Gotta have him on too, Ace.
Speaker 2:Brian, and then there was like a bunch of guys in Vaporflies who were like 220 marathon guys. And like it was so weird, but we went out so fast. Everybody closed in fast Like I closed in a 430.
Speaker 1:What and didn't make up ground, I would have gotten smoked dude. There's no way it was. It was terrifying. We were going.
Speaker 2:So I was like we were going so fast. Every I think everyone closed in a 430 because there was a guy maybe 200 yards ahead of me in that final road stretch and I was 430 pace not catching up. Holy shit, dude, it was disgusting it was like fly guys yeah the vaporfly guys somehow survived and took the w. Unfortunately beat the trail guys. But me and ace actually did a little digging and on the segment so that somebody made a segment of just the trail portion. Okay.
Speaker 1:Was it an actual trail or?
Speaker 2:was it like dirt. It was like hilly Santa Fe kind of thing. So double track Okay, but Ace would have. If it was just the trail portion, ace would have won, of course he would have and I would have taken fifth or fourth. So the trail guys won the trail.
Speaker 1:It's just the road. Guys won the road really hard, dude, what, uh? I mean I?
Speaker 2:I was surprised to see that race there, um and so many random fast people, like it was just insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I was a little bummed. That'd been fun to have you uh next year this year, yeah by the time september rolls around, I'm, I'm toast I think it was october too.
Speaker 1:It was super late what it was, dude, and that's. Yeah, I'm hit or miss at that point, like I'm usually like ready for the season to be over and just like just chill, lay down, like just at that point I'm like kind of transitioning into playing in the mountains mode and then you know, before the snow comes right, and kind of Right, like I usually do my slow stuff, you ever go out to the Sangres and play out there.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Oh dude, Fun range.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where is?
Speaker 1:that Sangre de Cristos. It's like two hours.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:That's so like, that's like my motivation. Like I love competition, I'm a competitor, love throwing down, but like I think it's over, I'd say my love for the mountains might be a little bit more. Yeah, so I'm curious to say, and like ACE struck me, while he's an insane competitor, he's a wild man, but like one of the things I loved about him and was really interested in was the answer he gave me when he said to me that you know, for him it's just like, kind of like it's it's he just likes being in the mountains. So like, where's your like your love for this? Is it competition? Is it being in the mountains? Is it running and inspiring courses? Like, where does your love for this come from, really?
Speaker 2:I think it roots from the love of running.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause I've always loved to run, ever since I was um was good enough to do it. I always loved running long too, Like I remember the first time I really did a race was in first grade. We had a fun run and you could do the mile or the 5K and I remember my dad asking me which one I wanted to do and I was like 5K.
Speaker 1:Why would I do the short one? How would I run a mile?
Speaker 2:And I was actually the only kid in the school to run the 5 do and I was like 5k, why would I do the short one? And I was actually the only kid in the school to run the 5k and I won because I was the only one there but I want to root beer and so I just remember like I've always loved to run and my dad.
Speaker 2:Maybe it comes from my dad because he loves it, but I think it really roots from there, and then adding the mountains to that, it just makes it 10 times better. So I think it's rooted with love, Although I am a very competitive person and a ultimate goal is to reach the top of the sport and be the best.
Speaker 1:So hell yeah, that's your goal, that's what you want to. It's my goal, I do, I love it, I love it Best in the world. All right. No, seriously, though, like I, I listen, man, that's uh. You don't get there unless you dream about it right and that's right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, thank you I.
Speaker 1:I really respect that. A lot of people put that shit out there yeah, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna keep putting it out there until, yeah, it'll come. Dude, it'll come, you've got.
Speaker 1:You have so much time, I've got like, like if I can look back at 33 years old and realize, like dude, that you've got like 13 years until you even get to where I'm at like in age wise, so like you've got a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got a good two decades to play around. It's almost taunting when. I, when I look at how excited I am and how bad I want to compete and then I'm like wait, wait let me ask you this like where do you, where do you think the sport's going like, do you, uh?
Speaker 1:and how do you see it now, especially now that you've seen, you've been at the, you've kind of raced at some of the most competitive races, especially like pike's peak and broken arrow, like that's kind of the pinnacle of what we've got on the american scene. Like, do you see more? I mean I, I see a lot more fast dudes coming into the scene and it's a lot harder to win races now yeah 100. Like where do you think it's gonna go man?
Speaker 2:I think it's gonna get really big, yeah, really fast. I think so too. I I think um, but I'm gonna put this out there it's not gonna be from road guys coming over no I think a lot of people say we need some fast road guys to make it popular and different sport it's different and a lot of people try and make it the same, but I think you put the best track guy in the world against the best trail guy. Trail guy wins 10 out of 10 on the trail, on the trail, yeah and the track guy would win 10 out of 10 on the track.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know why people put track people above trail drives me crazy, like literally, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When people say shit like oh, he's a two 10 or two 20 marathoner and I'm like that doesn't mean shit.
Speaker 2:Like literally not of them at black.
Speaker 1:Canyon and like I have a lot of friends that went to black Canyon and beat every one of those two 20 marathoner guys, yeah and yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Right and yeah, I think it's going to get really big, although our sport is really stingy. So I think it will keep its core. Yeah, because people are, oh man, like you just see how people went after UTMB, you know what I mean Like what they did was messed up, although it was a very small, small thing, I think.
Speaker 1:Like it wasn't that big of a You're talking about the Gary thing, the Gary Rob small thing.
Speaker 2:I think like it wasn't that big about the Gary thing, the Gary Robbins thing. I feel like it wasn't the biggest deal in the world, although every trail runner and their parents and their kids and their dogs came after UTMB, and so I think a lot of people are worried of the sport losing its core. I don't think so. I don't think it's possible.
Speaker 1:I don't, I think it, I don't know. So it's funny like a. I think it, I don't know. So it's funny like shout out to uh, finn melanson's podcast, a single track.
Speaker 1:He had a good interview with the I think it was the marketing director, the guy that runs the show over at utmb, okay, and I thought I thought one of the things I do really respect is like he put it out there so people can hear both sides of the story, right right you know, like there was interviews with gary there's was and then there was interviews with this guy from utmb and one of the things that he made a compelling answer for and I'm curious to see if this is the way it will remain and I'll I will reserve my judgment as long as it stays this way is that, like his comment was, utmb is not gonna like take over the entire sport, and I think a lot of people I think that's where the core of the sport and people get kind of squeamish is when they think about it becoming one thing under Iron man.
Speaker 2:And I don't think that's possible.
Speaker 1:I really, I mean, that's just me, I'm just one guy who doesn't really know that much, but my thought is I don't want it to go that way, I don't want it to be monopolized under one thing, cause I think there's there's a place for everything. I think there's a place for these UTMB races and I think there's a place for these grassroots races. We can have everything and people can be happy. But that said, I just don't, I don't see that happening. I don't, I don't see the total monopolization of the sport. But I could be wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, a lot of people miss the middleman too. I think everyone went straight to blame UTMB, which of course, they were a part of it, although I think the real problem is Vail Fuck, vail, fuck, vail. They've ruined skiing and snowboarding.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think a lot of people are like UTMB. But Vail should have been the one saying I'm sorry, they should have like or hey, like we're talking to UTMB. Yeah, like obviously there's all kinds of things that UTMB could have done, but I think the thing that really allowed that to fall through was fail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think I didn't like to. Oh dude, I saw some shit man. Like social media is a nasty place when stuff like this comes out. Yeah, and like I'm not, I like listen, I reserve judgment. I don't think I know enough about the situation to be able to like say one thing or another, but like one of the things I didn't like that I saw were like people attacking, like for even like when utmb fired korean malcolm right, right like I thought that was yes.
Speaker 1:I thought that was super fucked up and the way they went about it. But that said, like I saw random people like attacking dylan bowman on social media, like whether or not, like he took a stand right and I was like whoa like are we? Do we all have to take stances? Now like oh my god, like this is a fucking sport. Like, why are people?
Speaker 2:and a chill sport, right wrong people trying to navigate the situation.
Speaker 1:Like people got to remember. Like dylan's got a family, he's got a kid. Like he's trying to put food on the table he's got his business like dude like I. I don't know I can't sit here and you can't sit here and judge someone right, and we all know what how dylan feels about corinne right dude like super close they love each other.
Speaker 2:You know like they're always commentating together, so it's like just because he didn't say anything about it doesn't mean he doesn't care, I don't even know.
Speaker 1:I just saw like in the comments I'm not going to name who I saw attacking him, but I saw quite a few people in comments like going after him over it and I was just like dude, that's not what our sport is like.
Speaker 2:We're all you know like we do this for one reason, and one reason only, that's to get not only get the best out of each other.
Speaker 1:But because we're a community right, you know right and like our community, we're supposed to build each other up. We're not supposed to be tearing each other down, like if we're going to pick an enemy, I'd rather than pick utmb as the enemy rather than do it, it makes zero sense, right?
Speaker 2:so one of the biggest pushers in our sport yeah, like he's pushing and I think if the sport becomes big, it's single-handedly. One of the hugest reasons is because of him yeah, yeah, I mean, he went out and said I want trail runners to be professional athletes, I want them to be able to live off this right and hell yeah, there are some people who don't even think that there should be prize money yeah, I don't understand and I'm like we should have more prize money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more, more, and I want it to go 10 20 deep. It should um it's it's just.
Speaker 2:I think, uh, the greatest thing about our sport is that it can be as elitist as it can like, as we want it to be, and keep its core, because you can be a 50 year old random guy and go race UTMB that's right or Western States you can always do that, even if Jim Walmsley is winning it at the front Right. So, ooh, this is a good question.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are your thoughts then on like the Ironmanization then, where we separate the elite field from, like, the normal people?
Speaker 2:Right, I don't like that. I think that's where it begins to be snooty road.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is, too is like I, you get your start like as an elite. Like I, I got my start beating the dudes at the front, you know yeah like beating those dudes as a normal person.
Speaker 1:So like, right, how am I going like, how is the the how are people going to get noticed? Is what I'm trying to say. You know, I think that's how you get your start in the sport is going out and beating those dudes or gals, I'm sorry, um, you know, by beating those people, and I I think that without that uh, and like the step, and I think there are like certain instances like for like, for instance, like the lululemon project that they just did, yep was so awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like fucking awesome super awesome same with, uh, the carbon x2 thing that hoka did a while back. That was dope where it was. Like these brands have their own like mini um race if you will right it's like it's a thing, but like, as far as like separating those, the field from the elite field from that field and making it two different races, kind of like the way golden trail does it in some sections right. Yeah, at mammoth they, uh, they had um, it wasn't at like.
Speaker 2:We all started together yeah but they had it fenced off so only the pros could, like start at the front. Okay, which I'm fine with. I'm okay with that because, if you're jim walmsley and you have to start at the back of like 5 000 people at utmb right, or I don't know how many people actually shouldn't be a thing.
Speaker 1:It should be corral or like even pikes, where there's like different tiers, like you'll start. There's like the, the elite tier, which starts there, but like I'm talking about like two separate races yeah, no that's no, where they're not even on like the same course together at any point. Like I don't, like that, I don't like that either.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the coolest things about our sport is that anybody can go race, like I went and raced remy bonet last year yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like you can go race Jim Walmsley at the broken arrow VK this year. You know it's.
Speaker 1:it's pretty awesome, Like the approachability to it is is is legit. I like that back to your comment that you made and I wanted to add something that I really agreed with on the difference between, like, a trail athlete versus a road athlete, and this is no shade to a road athlete but I think you start throwing in like mountain sports, like like the nordic skiers of the world into the chat, like I think those are the people that come in and just absolutely dominate on the trail scene.
Speaker 1:Like they have enormous aerobic engines. Uh, they know how to survive in really tough conditions you know, and I just think it's it's a better, more consistent crossover, because you see, guys, you'll see david norris, right, david norris yeah freak, you'll see. I think karen malcolm actually was a norris skier sofia, laukley, sofia is like, probably the biggest one yeah um sam hendry as well remy bonet has even started in skiing.
Speaker 1:He's a schemo athlete, so there's just so much crossover, whereas I feel like the the rodent track scene is just. It is almost different where it's like kind of hit or miss right you know like even I mean, this is no shade like, and I don't know what her situation was like, or like molly seidel? Um, I don't know if she was trying, I don't know what the deal was, but she was out, broke, uh, at speed last year and got second right if she was trying.
Speaker 1:I don't know but she might have just been out there to have a good time. I beat her, by the way, did you see her? I beat the olympic bronze medal.
Speaker 2:She signed up, so we saw her and we were like I swear that is molly sidell right, I think she signed up on her she signed up on a fake name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh man I, I don't know how I feel about that either I I want to be famous like I, I really want to reach that point and I feel about that, either I want to be famous Like I really want to reach that point, and I'm not doing this because I want to be famous, but I think I will just cherish that moment. Some people don't like it. It kind of bums me out. I'm like, oh man, fame, fame, ooh, this is something fun to dive into Like a fake name in a race.
Speaker 1:That's. That's really famous dude like yeah, yeah, I just listened to dylan's pod with her the other day. I did too yeah long drive back from durango. I was like I need to find something to listen to and that was something I I threw on and I think that is just a different uh, as far as like super stardom in our sport, I think olympic bronze, that's the pinnacle, yeah, you know what do you think about? Uh, do you think our sport will ever become like an olympic sport?
Speaker 2:I think the short stuff will, I think the hundred mile or ever will I don't know how soon that will happen, but I think this last year having the first, uh, true world championship yeah like all together, all distances, everything, like there's an actual uh government body.
Speaker 2:I think that's the first step to actually getting it into the olympics, and so I think it is possible, although I don't know how long it stays in or if it gets in, just because, uh, location problems, yeah, like I know, surfing and skateboarding make. It's made its debut this last Olympics and surfing they're not really going to add on again, I think, just because there's places where there aren't waves, where they where they want to go. You know, and if you start saying, ok, we need a place with waves, we need a place that we can do a mountain race, trail, we need a place, yeah, trail trail, you know. So it's all these things, and so I, as much as I would love to, and I think it deserves it, uh, logistically wise, I don't know if they do it so this is a hot take.
Speaker 1:I don't think we should do it, and the reason I? I and because, and the reason is I think schemo might be the best example and because, like schemo, just got in and they just butchered it, man, kind of like they did the climbing where they like, change it for this like, for instance, like climbing completely changed and schema they took out. I think it was, I can't remember what was the vertical or the individual to my schema people out there.
Speaker 1:I'm really sorry that I remember this off the top of my head but I know they changed the schema situation and I just feel like with trail running, like yes, maybe the short stuff makes it on, but like you're telling me, a short distance mountain race that's going to be hard to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know yeah. I think with this world championship, this new like style of world championships, I think in 10 years that is a pinnacle. Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1:And I think it's better, especially now that we've got like the anti-doping scene starting to catch on and like we're like moving on to having like we'll probably have a governing, like a true governing body in the next few years, right, you know like and we'll see if we get like out of season testing and like we can get like some actual legitimate professional like, um, professional, like just professionalism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I think once we do. I hate to say this, but like it's going to weed some people out for sure, um, I mean, we saw Stian.
Speaker 1:I was really bummed to see that I was really, yeah, it really made me upset, Like I was just he's somebody I definitely admired still admire you know, in the sport, like I don't know, I'm not going to sit here and, like you know, throw some shade on another man's name, but like, yeah, it's tough that that situation is a tough situation, whether or not it's legitimate or not, Um, and I think there are others, and I know there are other others.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there's totally others.
Speaker 1:So let's get that weeded out and start like becoming more professionalized. And then you're starting to see the athletes change to like the, the type of athlete like where this isn't just like running around in the hills anymore, like this is. You have a strength and conditioning coach. There are guys like I have a strength and conditioning coach, like every now and then, like I'll talk to like um, like I out of season, like this year I did a um, I went to a sports psych for the first time oh, cool, changed the, change the game for me to really really, really helped me.
Speaker 1:You know, dude, after last season, like I don't know what it was, but like September I hit like a really like I was just I don't know if I was like low in iron or low in something, but like man I went through like a changed the game. So that's something I will continue to use and I definitely recommend it for anybody that's interested. So you're talking about athletes with strength and conditioning coaches, running coaches, sports psychs Like it's the true professionalization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all kinds of testing, yeah, and everything. Yeah, big time Like athletes Tom Evans, hayden Hawks yeah athletes tom evans, hayden hawks yeah, those guys are.
Speaker 1:I'd say yeah, I really point to hayden especially like I don't know hayden too personally, like he coached me a long time ago, but like just following him through the sport, like he's a dog dude. Yeah, I admire him like I had somebody I really look up to and I'm just like you know he's just got that. He's a really humble guy and he's a fucking hard worker.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just he's got. He's just got the dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he got the dog yeah.
Speaker 1:Like he always talks about. He's like he's like quoting Kobe Bryant and shit like that and I'm like, oh man, I love that. Yeah, yeah, that's cool, really cool question. I'm going to have to wind down soon. We're almost at an hour and 30.
Speaker 2:It's like too much to talk about.
Speaker 1:Here's a lot um, dude, like what I? I see you uh out there like liking like ufc stuff every now and then on instagram. So yeah do you? Is that like one of your favorite, like adjacent sports?
Speaker 2:I'm just kind of curious, like what sports you draw inspiration from and stuff yeah, I actually, uh, was listening to a couple of your podcasts on my long run the other day and I like your intro, bruce. Buffer, Bruce Buffer yeah, shout out, bruce Buffer, if you're listening. I wish.
Speaker 1:We're big fans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like UFC. Honestly, my favorite sport that I look up to, probably the most right now, is Formula One. Really, yeah, I mean alongside, I love mountain running, obviously, but formula one it's a very euro take, yeah yeah, I love it. It's uh, I've never. I've always loved sports and never really been able to like be religious about them. Okay, growing up I was, I played soccer.
Speaker 2:Could never just get into soccer and then tried football, basketball like nothing I could really get into ufc I kind of did but formula one I do not miss a race really, have you ever?
Speaker 1:have you been to any yet in the states? I have not no dude. It's expensive, so expensive it's like 500 a ticket. Yeah, one of my best friends um from florida. He like he he's's from Hungary. Oh nice, shout out to Chaba. He's a he's, he's full Euro, yeah, and like he, he dude, like he never misses it. Like he, he wakes up, like he used to. I think he told me he would like wake up in the middle of the night to watch F1.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's, he's into it, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a. It's one of those sports where you sort of pull um, since there's so few of them there's 20 of them in the world and so it's like if you pulled, like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, um, michael Jordan, shaq, like all those guys into one league, yeah, and just watched him fight, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like it's just crazy, because every single one of them wants to be world champion and thinks they can be, even if they've never won a race. Every single one of them wants to be world champion and thinks they can be Okay, Even if they've never won a race, even if they've never gotten a point. That is their goal and their dream.
Speaker 1:You don't get that in a lot of sports.
Speaker 2:You don't when every single one of them can legitimately tell you honestly that they want to be, and they think they'll be, world champion. Dude, that's dope and I just love that mentality. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:My favorite adjacentason sport hands down like and it wasn't this way like a year ago, two years ago. I just started like recently catching on and like really liking fighting yeah I think, it's the reason, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I used to think of it as like a very barbaric sport and I used to think of it as like I'm not so sure. And then you watch a couple fights and you realize like no, this is like 4d chess, like you have to be, and I don't know, maybe it's because, like mountain running, I feel like you have to be good at the uphill, you have to be good at the downhill, you have to be good on technically, you have to be good at all of these pieces, right, really good at all these pieces, in order to be the best version of yourself. And I see, like, almost adjacently, fighters with jujitsu, with muay thai, with all these different subsects and like wrestling. You know you want to be good at all these different subsects and, like wrestling, you know you want to be good at all of these different things, to be the most well rounded athlete, to be a world champion, and.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I was like kind of pulled like that kind of inspiration from it Plus, like I don't know, it's just fun.
Speaker 2:It's super fun. I uh, I grew up watching it Like we would have fight nights at our house all the time and loving george saint pierre yeah, just yeah, so speaking of a, every single tool in the box, man yeah, I'm a big volk guy love.
Speaker 1:Oh nice, yeah, um. And then dustin. Dustin the diamond poirier, like I, you know, like is he fighting this weekend or did no he? So he fought 299. Oh okay, kicked the shit out of that french guy. Ben was in the a, knocked out.
Speaker 2:I'm watching 300 this weekend.
Speaker 1:Same, same Excited Bo Nichols on there, it's a stacked card.
Speaker 2:You see Cody Garbrand on the undercard and Holly Holm the undercard as well.
Speaker 1:It's stacked, yeah, stacked, dude, jerry Parasca, a light heavyweight guy. He's on there. He's on the undercard as well. Undercard is insane.
Speaker 2:And then you get to the main card and are they doing the bmf or did they? Yeah, it's max, and justin gaethje because I heard at one point it was canceled.
Speaker 1:But uh, it's a fake news fib. Fake news okay, you gotta go back and read. It's actually you should read the tweet. It's kind of funny. Like it says, justin gaethje pulls out because of cte. Gave him, like some like stage something, autism.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Oh really it was like totally a flop oh awesome.
Speaker 2:Because I was excited for that fight.
Speaker 1:Dude. It's funny. I'm a Gaethje fan as well and like Gaethje, he's up Dude. He's in the greater Denver area, Right, but he like runs Red Rocks all the time.
Speaker 2:Really. Yeah, I don't know if you listen to my podcast on the roads or the trails.
Speaker 1:I think on the trails and, like he's, it's on his youtube video all the time like at least a couple times a week. So I'm like I always tell like nick tusa, I'm like nick, you gotta go like run up on justin gagey, like that's awesome yeah, yeah. So no, I'm a big fan, big fan, all right, so we'll end with a couple questions. First one, you probably knew this one was coming who is your male and female sub-ultra mountain running goat?
Speaker 2:so I've put a lot of thought into this. I spent I had a four-hour run the other day and I was thinking about it a lot. During that I was listening to you're an ace's conversation and, uh, scrabble as well. Yeah, um, I think there's so many right answers and so it creates sort of this there's not really a right answer because there's none you go, you go back in time and at one point on the male side you could say pablo v hill yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Back in series and all legends four times. Here's an all winner back back in the day, yeah. And then you have any Colorado guy who's like 50, 60, we'll tell you Matt Carpenter is the best. That's right, you know. And then so, as you go through time, there's so many options, but I think Joe Joe Gray Dominant. Hands down, I would say most, because he has all these world championships all these American championships. But I just think there's a level of person you have to have that it factor as well.
Speaker 1:It's interesting you say this, so I've actually, and I put a pin, just hold your thought real quick. Okay, so my definition since I started asking this question on the podcast has actually changed me, and it's changed my opinion on this interesting because I, I and I used to think like goat was just dominance and sheer dominance.
Speaker 1:But I like my view on the goat now has become dominance, who you are in your time, but also like that Muhammad Ali figure, someone that changed, like you need. Like Muhammad Ali is a little bit different, and it might not even be right of me to speak and say that in the sense where like Muhammad Ali was a cultural figure too, but I'm talking about someone who changes their sport fundamentally.
Speaker 1:Right, you know like you could put killing in there and you, you know, killing at one point yeah and fundamentally right, you know, like you could put killian there and you got killian at one point sub, ultra, yeah and like, and you could put killian there. You could put joe there, because joe, really, in my opinion, the way joe changed the sport with just that sheer dominance like, yeah, kick the shit out of everybody right in his day.
Speaker 2:Max king is still going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could put max in there. Max is another ageless wonder. I think joe just turned 40, max is like 43 that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing to be at that level and be that good.
Speaker 1:Um, so there's just, and you know, killian's not far away. Killian's, he's got to be older than me, he's like probably 36, something like that yeah, so killian's not young either. Um, yeah, so anyway, sorry, yeah, no, it's just kind of like my it is interesting. I think there's just kind of like my thought it is interesting.
Speaker 2:I think there's this sort of it factor that goes along with that like, as well as a generational thing. Yeah, so in bat, like basketball, a lot of people, a lot of young kids right now tell you LeBron's the goat and LeBron will never be the goat. Sorry, yeah, it's either Jordan or Kobe. I'd say Jordan, yeah, he's just your dominance and competitiveness Right, and if it's somebody who can single-handedly decide, they're going to win. Yeah, you know what I mean, but also as a cultural icon.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Patrick Mahomes, steve Prefontaine, and so I think we haven't had that sort of mindset brought along with the dominance to create like, oh the goat, is this person?
Speaker 1:right, and that's the thing like kill, and you could say like so now, reading killian's book, I would look back and say like killian has how do I say this? Because there's still like this weird thing where, like we have like obviously supreme sportsmanship and I think that's amazing, yep, but like no one no one really like calls their shots as much on the higher end of the sport and I right I don't know why.
Speaker 1:It's at least like it's not, and if it is called, it's not just it's not necessarily talked about. Um, yeah, I'm trying to think like, or how rephrase I was gonna say like courtney makes the most sense, even though it's not sub ultra. She has ascended the sport, she's been on rogan you know she's been on every podcast.
Speaker 1:She's got a beer sponsor, I think still like she's kodiak cakes yeah, she's done it all like in the sense where, like that is the, that is the female, in my opinion, greatest of all time right there's not even anybody close to that on the female side, like from an ultra perspective. As far as the sub ultra sport and it's interesting because I feel like sub ultra has been around for so much longer um, even though it's got less, you know less, uh, star appeal, if you will in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a tough conversation, man, I don't know it is. And on the women's side, you know, you got maude, yeah, you got ali mac, you gotson Murphy, uh, you got all kinds of people out there and I I just think a common trait of people in our sport is that they're a little bit more reserved and they don't want the spotlight. Yes, and I think that is the reason why there isn't this obvious goat.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think that is one of the things that I plan to sort of bring to the table as an athlete is, I want the spotlight and I'm excited to get there and I want to have that it factor and bring that extra sort of level of charisma alongside performance, charisma alongside performance. And so I think, yeah, it's just it's hard to say because due to just sheer performance.
Speaker 1:There's so many right answers and there's, so there's also Skyrunner series.
Speaker 2:Golden Trail Cirque. So there's so many styles of sub ultra running as well, and so it's it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I thought was interesting Jackson had brought up, like Hillary, hillary, girary gerardi yeah she's runs for black diamond and she's on the sky runner series and absolute and like dude.
Speaker 1:What she did on mont blanc this year to break the mont blanc fkt. Yeah, you could put her up there on the female side, like there's just so many like and like dude. Even one of the things that was interesting. I don't know if you watched the last. I just happened the other day, uh, to watch the last golden trail series. There's like youtube shorts that they do. Yeah, yeah, I watched, I watched all I forget his name. Who's the guy with the grayish hair but looks much younger?
Speaker 2:is he, he's an athlete.
Speaker 1:No, he's got the. He's like he's.
Speaker 2:I think he's got like a british accent oh, the british guy yeah, he's got all the golden trail stuff.
Speaker 1:The announcer guy yeah, I cannot, I don't know his name either, but anyway he called judith one of the greatest trail runners of all time yeah and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I was like you don't really hear that, that those words thrown around that right, she's a multiple orienteering yeah world champion she is, and she's dude.
Speaker 1:She's a fucking competitor dude, yeah, she's. She like. And like when they interview her, like she calls her shots like she's right. It was really cool to see them kind of like dissect and disseminate that um, the competition before her between her and sofia, yeah, the back and forth, yeah, it was cool and I had the the opportunity to run with judith a little bit in mammoth yeah, and what'd you?
Speaker 2:think she races man. Yeah, we were going up the that big climb up switchbacks and every place there was a place, every spot there was a place to pass. She was passing and then I'd pass her back. She like she was not just racing the women around here, she was full-on racing me, like we were just back and forth battling. And I love that, yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2:Because I think some people see it as like if the woman, if there's a pro woman next to you, like get out of their way, yeah, but in my opinion, I see them as competition right as well, because they're they see me as competition you're all in the same race, right like I think a lot of people are like, well, if you're not good enough to beat all the women that get out of their way, but I I think they're just, they're badass man and they're so fun to race and same as, uh, she's on tarix tabor no danny, danny yeah, she was battling me, her and, uh, judith, really battling like warring it was awesome, like it was it was a whole lot of fun.
Speaker 2:I was like I was like if I was a woman right now I'd be so good having a blast, that's awesome so yeah they're. They're super fun to race.
Speaker 1:Wow, dude. I mean I know judith like she wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Like, like I said, I've never met her in person, never raced her, but like damn, when you see her interviews, like she's got that killer mentality yeah I don't think danny's competitive as well um and maybe we missed that through through translation or like, because I've heard remy like even on that, those videos he called it.
Speaker 1:He's like I'm gonna show I'm the best tomorrow. He says I'm the best in the world. I was like damn son, yeah yeah, it's interesting, but then when he's actually out there, he's not portraying that big personality and you know, one of the things that uh and I've said this with everybody that I've had on the pod, because you know, everybody's been in the mix at some point, raced other professionals and like have all been in the front of races, like they're just people you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's just a man. Yep, exactly that's the thing I don't know.
Speaker 1:I respect Remy. I don't know if I like. I don't know, Maybe it's because I am just such a and people know this I have such bias towards Joe that I'm just like you fucking took the Incline record and then you came here and you came in our backyard and you took that manitou.
Speaker 2:Then you took the uh pike's peak record. Motherfucker like I just yeah, we need to bring it back. Somebody go do it you claim that from?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, he put a big swiss flag right up there, dude, that's that's the swiss mountain now and like that can't happen it can't, no, no yeah, dude, there's you, there, you go there's your. That's my vision quest but no, in all seriousness though, um yeah, someone needs to get that. Take that, at least take the incline at least in america, I don't know if you're gonna, if we're gonna get the, if the americans are gonna get the ascent record back, but someone's gotta get the least the incline record back, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah so yeah, All right, dude. Last question who inspires you?
Speaker 2:Who? Um, I think a lot of people inspire me. I, uh, my parents both inspire me quite a bit. Um, I take inspiration from the all the pros quite a bit. I try and take little things from different people and who I want to be, so I would say it's quite a jumble of things. There's a book called Way of the Peaceful Warrior. I'm not sure if you've read it.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So it's a book about this. He basically combines everything he learned from somebody into one person in this book, and this person's name is Socrates and he basically teaches them all these lessons. So I would say my inspiration is sort of comes from my Socrates. So it's like little things pulled from different people that create me the best that I can be, and so my parents, killian courtney, formula one drivers, ufc fighters there's all kinds of different areas of where I pull steve prefontaine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um mo farah I. I love the old track kind of 2004 through 2012. That that's the real, like one of the peak track scenes I think we've had in a long time and I think right now just doesn't quite touch it and level like you would have elliott kipchoge, mo fair, galen, rupp, kennedy's, a bikili, even highly gabriel salasi would be in there sometimes and you're like there is never going to be a time where you're going to have this level of field together.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so, yeah, it comes from a lot of places dude, I'm going to write that book down, that's, I'm going to order that after we get off this. Oh yeah, yeah, you'll you'll love it.
Speaker 2:It definitely is a.
Speaker 1:It's a life changer, yeah no, I think that's the best way to. I think it's someone at your age and at your point especially so young in the sport like to take little things that you learn from different people and kind of combine that as you develop and grow. There's no better recipe for success, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Oh well, thank you, yeah, man I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Well, dude, didn't we?
Speaker 2:sit almost two hours Well.
Speaker 1:I hope y'all have two-hour run this weekend, dude. Thank you so much for being on bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm super honored I was stoked.
Speaker 1:Let's throw some plugs down. What's your Instagram handle?
Speaker 2:Benjamintsend.
Speaker 1:I like that yeah.
Speaker 2:I was thinking of doing full send, but that's kind of weird.
Speaker 1:Benjamin, yeah, I like that yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's my Instagram. Strava is just Benjamin Townsend. Okay, Plug Dina fit. React. Sing squirrels nut butter. If you need loop, squirrels nut butter is your spot, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:That's a good ending note. Yeah, all right, guys. Benjamin Townsend What'd you guys think I told you you were gonna like this one? Um, benjamin is a really, really, really good dude and, uh, like I said, he's a young gun and we are so excited for his future here. Um, before we leave, let's go ahead and plug his instagram. You guys can find them on Instagram at benjamintsend. So that's going to be B-E-N-J-A-M-I-NT-S-E-N-D. Go ahead, and if you guys liked this episode, go ahead and give him a follow. Shoot him a DM. Yeah, let him know what you guys are thinking, what you guys thought about the episode, and let's get his Instagram follower count up there. Yeah, until next time, guys. Hope you enjoyed this episode of the steep, tough podcast. Thank you.