#68 - David Hedges

Join us on the Steep Stuff Podcast for a riveting conversation with endurance athlete David Hedges, who has captivated the trail running world with his remarkable Fastest Known Time (FKT) records. Journey with David from the flatlands of Chicago to the majestic peaks of Colorado as he shares the mental and physical dedication necessary to succeed as a sponsored athlete. From sky racing in Italy's awe-inspiring Tre Cime di Lavaredo to tackling the grueling Nolan's 14, David opens up about the exhilarating highs and challenging lows of life on the trails, offering listeners an unparalleled glimpse into the world of elite ultra-running.

We also explore the transformative journey of young runners as they navigate the competitive ultra-running scene. David recounts his own experience as a 19-year-old facing the fierce conditions of the JFK 50 Mile race, offering personal insights into balancing academics with a passion for running. Our conversation takes us through the diverse landscapes of the U.S., from the rugged Catskills to the technical terrains of North Carolina, revealing how these environments shape the athletes who conquer them. Through anecdotes of races and FKTs, David emphasizes the unique charm and thrilling challenges each region presents to dedicated trail runners.

As we turn our attention to the international stage, David shares his perspective on iconic ultra-running events like the UTMB and European sky races. Delve into the pressures and expectations faced by athletes as the sport becomes more professional, and discover how diverse backgrounds can lead to success in ultra-trail racing. From the camaraderie found in training camps with elite runners to the breathtaking beauty of the European racing scene, this episode is packed with inspiring stories and insights for anyone passionate about endurance running and mountain adventures.

David Hedges Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dhedges_/?hl=en

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Transcript

David Hedges

Speaker 1 0:00

What is up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and I am so excited to dive in today's episode with none other than the man, the myth, the legend himself, mr David Hedges. It's really exciting to have finally had a conversation with David. I've been a big fan of his since like 2020. The guy is an absolute monster, fkt holder on the Nolan's 14 line, as well as the world, world whole slew of FKTs, including Mount Mitchell and Pico de Orizaba as well. David has certainly made a name for himself, both on the FKT and the racing scene. We had a long conversation about what it's like to try to pursue a life as a sponsored athlete, what it's like to kind of go all in and immerse yourself and go after big dreams and big goals on these FKTs as well as um, as well as talking all about the sky racing circuit, circuit, um and Trevor Trevino Kima I think I mispronounced that word, but uh, trevino Kima, which is a beautiful race that's overseas um, that David had an opportunity to race this year, um, over in Italy. So, guys, without further ado, I hope you enjoy this episode. It's a personal favorite of mine. I really admire David a lot, not just as a person, but as an athlete. He is definitely someone to follow in the sport and, like I said, it was an honor and a privilege to be able to have a conversation with him. So, without further ado, none other than David Hedges. It's time We'll be right back. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live, people, earth. Listen up. The Steep Stuff Podcast is brought to you by Ultimate Direction USA. I am so excited to be partnering with Ultimate Direction in 2025 as the official hydration solutions partner for the Steep Stuff Podcast. Lots of fun things coming down the pike for this year. Ultimate direction is going to be unveiling a brand new race and ultra vast that's going to be dropping in the next couple of months. So excited to bring that to you guys. If you are in the market right now for apparel, for a belt, for a new pack, anything hydration solutions related flasks um it, they've got it. They've got you covered. If you hop on to ultimate directioncom and use code steep stuff pod that's one word. Steep s-t-e-e-p stuff, s-t-u-f-f. Pod. If you hop on to ultimate directioncom and use that code, that's going to get you 25 off your car, especially that we're starting to wind our way a little bit more closer to spring, you guys are going to be start start to put together your race calendars and, uh, yeah, ultimate direction is going to have you guys covered. So, whatever you need, they've got you outfitted from head almost a toe. They don't do shoes yet. So, guys, enjoy yourself. Have a great rest of your week. Thanks so much and, uh, check out ultimate direction. Thanks so much and check out Ultimate Direction, david Hedges.

Speaker 1 3:45

Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, man. How are you? Hey, james, good, good, thanks for having me. Yeah, man, this has been a long time coming. I don't know. You probably don't know this. I know I've said this on a couple podcasts, but, dude, I've been aware of you for a really long time. I took your splits from 2019, the Sangre de Cristo 50K for the Sangre de cristo 50k for a, the sangria de cristo 50k race that I ran in 2020, and I was like this kid ran a really great race and that's how I, that's how I found out about you, like five years ago cool.

Speaker 2 4:15

Yeah, I remember. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting I was doing. I was actually doing a lot of stuff in the song graze that summer like or the summer prior, because I think that was in the fall and I just raced bull of the woods, kachina peak 50k the week before, won that in tau, so it was sort of like a a song great, you know, I'd I'd like done the cresto needle. Then my semester started in the springs and then I took some weekends, drove down and uh, that's such an underrated.

Speaker 1 4:51

Uh, it's like set of mountains, set of peaks, like sun grays are dope man yeah, yeah they're.

Speaker 2 4:58

I mean they're just like you know, very majestic and also like kind of foreboding, but I love that you know it's such a sheer ridge, for it's like 220 miles from santa fe, where I am now, to salida, you know, just kind of like a perfect north-south trajectory.

Speaker 1 5:17

So it's cool yeah, no, it's a dope mountain range, but yeah, man, well, listen, dude. Thanks so much for coming on the pod. Um, I feel like for those in the know, like you have significant name recognition. Um, but maybe just give a little bit of a background on your on your running journey and then we can kind of break it down from there um sure, yeah, thanks.

Speaker 2 5:39

Um, I mean, I started doing this 11 years ago. I was in high school in Chicago and I just got really well, I don't know, it was like a combo of getting stoked on on an endurance and like the mountains and adventure, and also just being like very cooped up, you know, in the middle of the city, and so I moved out toado like the day after I graduated, worked the summer, went to school in colorado, um, so that was 2016, and just kind of like, progressively, progressively, you know, got more and more exposed to alpine pursuits, let's call them, but mostly just running, to be fair, and, you know, off trail scrambling, um dabbled in skiing and so, yeah, so I've kind of made, I've kind of made, uh, these just getting out in the mountains kind of my, my jam, that's what I just really enjoy it. So, yeah, I don't know, I've raced a lot, I've done fkts, I've bounced all over, I've, you know, slept in my tent a whole lot, um, gotten to know some really cool people in the sport.

Speaker 1 6:59

Uh, yeah, I guess that's where I'm at, yeah man, I think it's a great synopsis, great breakdown, breakdown and we're going to. There's a lot to talk about. Like I said, it's a lot to break down. I think the first thing is is like, let's talk college. I'm like genuinely dying to know about your time at CC. Like I know Alex Nichols is who's now the CC coach, was kind of involved with the program at the same time or something like that, and he just reminds me a little bit of you. I don't know, you guys kind of remind me of each other, so maybe can you talk about like that influence on on you and like you know just kind of what rose the stoke for the trails while you were at cc sure, yeah, no, that's funny.

Speaker 2 7:39

The, the blonde, skinny ultra runner, doppelganger effect in Colorado is strong like it is crazy how often I'm like confused with you know, kieran, or even Kyle Richardson. It's just like daily. Um, yeah, no, he, so he was. I mean he was racing hard, like on the Skyrunner circuit and world champs, and I mean, you know, you know he's, he's a legend.

Speaker 2 8:10

When I was just getting into, you know, just in 2015, 2016, when I was just showing up and you know, I thought I was cool, I was like I had won some races and was running a whole lot. So I thought I was like in the ultra running scene already as a freshman and, um, he was, he was coaching us. So I just ran cross country, I think, yeah, two seasons at CC. So I wasn't part, I wasn't really part of the team or anything you know like the full program or anything you know like the full program, um, just because I was trying to race ultras in the spring and various. You know there's a lot of travel, a lot of bus trips involved and I was, you know, I was pretty, I was, uh, pretty dedicated academically as well. So eventually it didn't make sense. Anyways, you know, to do more seasons. But yeah, I mean he was just real quiet but you could tell he was. He was a crusher and you know, if you ever looked at his Strava splits on some of those segments that I was trying to run, it was just crazy and I don't know he just he carried himself really well. He was, you know, a lot of fun to get to know a little bit. And you know, we went on. We went on a couple of Pikes Peaks runs and I got to know, you know, peter, who was in the Springs at the time, and Brandon, Just a bit through him, and yeah, yeah, it was a major inspiration. I mean he, I ended up helping him on his nolan's attempt in 2018, although I wasn't all that helpful because I was pretty naive, you know, not the most prepared myself, but that had a huge effect on me.

Speaker 2 10:00

I mean it really opened my eyes to like, wow, what you could do. You can know you can go anywhere in the mountains if you, if you just try hard enough and find the right lines. And you know he was to see him, to see him overcome like such a low moment in the middle of the night, when I picked them up to dropping me on massive at the end. Um was was unbelievable like I. I was, I was so shocked and uh, so yeah, and then he he's, he coached me, uh, you know, a couple years altogether for ultra running as well. So yeah, now you know, now he's, he's full-time running the show at cc and you know he's really busy and um, he's like the team's like incredibly good, so yeah I know it's crazy, right he's?

Speaker 1 10:48

he's an interesting cat. I'm curious about your. So I know you kind of brushed on being from chicago and getting excited about ultra running. Like what did you just like find it on youtube or online? Like what got you stoked about like just running long distances or running in the mountains all together? Like how did where did that spark come from?

Speaker 2 11:08

um, I mean I'd always been like super into, uh, the classic adventure books, novels and you know, memoirs and stuff like that, and then, uh, movies and so stuff like that. Um, and then, yeah, I mean I ran born to run scott gurek's book, um anton's blog and youtube I mean solomon running was coming out right then and I couldn't, yeah, it was, it was. It was just like they were doing such a good job. I mean it was just like they were doing such a good job. I mean the stuff on Ricky Gates and Remy and billion. Obviously I was super inspired. So, um, yeah, and I'd done a little bit of backpacking just with my, my, uh, dad and sister and um, and so just thinking like considering that I could run those run in those areas as well as hike them, was, uh, was like um, mind-blowing.

The Young Runner's Journey

Speaker 1 12:12

So yeah, you had a lot of success. Young too, I mean like dude, you didn't you get like fifth at jfk. Like you were like what, 17, 18 years old or somewhere in that range. Like you were pretty young jfk.

Speaker 2 12:27

Yeah, that was 2017. Okay, um, so I was 19, I think okay, and oh my god yeah, that was hilarious.

Speaker 2 12:39

um, I mean, I've been already been racing for a while then and doing big volume and stuff, but I I remember so that was at the end of my second cross, you know, my sophomore cross country season, and I had done like I think I had done like seventeen hundred mile weeks in a row while doing two workouts a week and a race or three workouts a week. So I was in really good shape actually and then showed up to jfk was, uh, you know, used to running in colorado fall by that point. So it was like 40 degrees and sunny, so, you know, shirtless, and it was 40 degrees and pissing rain at jfk and I was like wearing a singlet and had zero. Like I had like three gels for the whole race but my hands were so cold I couldn't even eat them, like I literally didn't, I couldn't even use my hands and I think it might've been colder than 40.

Speaker 2 13:37

I just remember then I had made some absolutely horrible nutrition mistakes the night before. So I was taking pit stops all the time. So me and mike wardian were trading off pit stops, like I swear, like six or seven times it was, it was, it was gruesome and but yeah, I think I ran. I was like sit, I don't know. Uh, yeah, it was like it was pretty good for considering the stoppage time and, and I guess, running purely on fat burning and being frozen big 19, like that's crazy was that weird like?

Speaker 2 14:12

sorry uh, yeah, I remember you know it ends at a high school. So I like it was like a peri-ruby style the the wash-up situation. You know, like styrofoam cups with Boolean and pretty old school, pretty fun, but they have like those big high school showers. So I just I was sitting in there for like at least an hour trying to warm, but I was so hypothermic it was horrible.

Speaker 1 14:38

Dude, that's bananas. Was it weird Like running with Michael Wardian, who was, I mean, at that point, like a few years ago? Was that like kind of the pinnacle of the sport? I mean that back in the day, what was he like on the North face team and then the Hoka team, so like he's a huge dude in the sport. Was that a little strange to you? Like look over, like oh shit, that's Michael Wardian Like, and then I'm running with him and beating him, like what was that like?

Speaker 2 15:00

It was really funny. It was really yeah, cause at that time he was, I mean, he was on the cover of runner's world and all that stuff. I think he had like a T-Mobile sponsorship and he was racing every weekend. And no, it was hilarious Cause I took the race out with him and I think, yeah, jacob Pusey, and being 19 and like just you know, admiring these people so much and having such a romantic view of the sport, I was shocked that they were sort of complaining about their kids a little bit or how hard it is. It's like life stuff, being middle-aged and also like GI stories and chafing stories. I was like I can't believe this.

Speaker 2 15:49

yeah it was really surreal. It was, it was funny that's crazy.

Speaker 1 15:54

It's like that time where I don't know I. It is just interesting when you start to meet your heroes in the sport and you meet all these people and you're like, oh, they're just people, this is really strange, totally I. So at that point then, because I imagine that's like a huge confidence booster, because at that point you're like I'm fit, I, I, you probably have all this hubris and all this confidence, thinking like I can go do anything in the sport. At that point, um, did your mind start to think like all right, I want to be a professional in this. Or you said you were very academically driven, so was your brain. More, I want to go pursue academics and a career in something else.

Speaker 2 16:36

I mean I've been kind of single-minded about running for a long time. I wish I wasn't so sort of obsessed. I wish I wasn't so sort of obsessed, but I just it's just. I mean, at CC, you know you, you um, you're in class from like nine to 12 or nine to one, and then the afternoon is up to you more or less. I mean depend, you know, different labs and stuff might have class in the afternoon, but so I would just go and I would run all afternoon, sometimes all night, like and um, that was really special. You know I I think I missed out on the, the social benefits that you could take advantage of at cc, um, in some ways. But yeah, I just had some like really great um, just like really moving experiences on the trails there and I just loved it so much.

Speaker 2 17:27

So, yeah, I mean, but the professionalism, it's tricky because you know you can, like you can expect to get sponsored or try to know, think that you're deserving of sponsorship, but in reality it's like, what are you offering? And for me, I'm not very good at playing that game and never was I would. I mean I wish it came easier, like I could be a bit of a salesman and and be able to be a professional, but I guess it just never, yeah, never happened. So, uh, yeah, I never was like sitting down like, oh, how can I be a professional and runner running? I just wanted to maximize my time on the trails and try to get results, if I could. Um, but yeah, I mean, I was never. I'm not like all that competitively motivated either and never was. It's tough to be like I'm going to win this race and then get sponsored. My mind has gone there at certain points, which is always really disappointing.

Exploring Mountain Trail Running Experiences

Speaker 2 18:38

I've lined up at UTMB twice. You show up really brash and really fit, but you know you don't have the crew support. You don't have the support to be there. It's super tough and then, you know, I dropped out both times. It's like such a such a huge bummer, just an enormous letdown. So I kind of wish I had different priorities going in, I think. But yeah, and academically, I mean I went to grad school in 2020. Got my master's in regional planning.

Speaker 1 19:14

You went to Cornell, right? Yeah, can you talk about that experience, man? I mean, like Ithaca and that area, my wife's from upstate New York, so we spent quite a lot of time up there. It's a beautiful area and the trail running is dope. I just find it really interesting because you've spent time in Colorado, you spent time in North Carolina, you spent time in the Northeast. There's a lot of dichotomy there of different mountain ranges and things like that. Can you maybe talk about your experience there and just the impression that left on you? Training in the Catskills as well as the Adirondacks, yeah, and just like the impression that left on you.

Speaker 2 19:47

Training in the cat skills as well as like the adirondacks, yeah, uh, I mean I drove to the cat skills a handful of times. It's actually pretty damn far from ithaca, it's like three and a half hours. It's kind of like assuming you're gonna ski in colorado springs like well, you really make the effort you could, um, but no, so yeah, in central New York, upstate New York, um it it kind of like reinvigorated the sport for me. I mean, first of all, I got in like great shape trying to balance grad school and running on those trails was on the Finger Lakes trails.

Speaker 2 20:17

I mean, to paint a picture, you just have the snaking footpath that's. I mean, it's not a footpath, most of it is just blazed on trees through a mixture of public and private land and it's this like shit, this really muddy area. Actually it's like a you know glacier remnants, the finger lakes, so it'll be these little punchy steep hills and rocks and roots, and but you're, you're just navigating through blazes most of the year, like a couple months of the year it's more visible, but but it was, so it would be so epic because it's also like super dark and dreary over there, especially compared to colorado, and um, and pretty icy and stuff. So I just do like these kind of hardcore out and backs and you know I never see anyone, ever, never, um, except like the occasional dog Walker on a Saturday. And yeah, it just felt like really raw and yeah, um, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 21:24

I mean Ithaca is beautiful, the town is great, the community is great. Um, the guy runs the run shop over there, ian golden is. He's a cool cat. Um, yeah, the races in the area are super legit and but really chill. So yeah, um, yeah, it was a different experience but I mean I got a lot out of it yeah so I also like worked in vermont for summer and yeah, that's where I was gonna go.

Speaker 1 21:54

Did you check out the adirondacks or the green mountains at all?

Speaker 2 21:56

and yeah, I mean the adirondacks are pretty remote. I only spent a bit of time there. I did like the great range traverse in uh like november one one year and then living in, I was uh working for in um pretty close to stowe town called bolton so uh, one summer so I was just running up and down the northern long trail a ton it was. It was awesome, really enjoyed that.

Speaker 1 22:23

Yeah, that's beautiful. The northeast is slept on man. There's a lot of good, good mountain running up there like technical nasty, like just wild terrain. It's completely uh.

Speaker 2 22:34

It's not colorado, that's for sure it is nasty, it's, it makes you you have to be so dialed, you know, so like focused and stuff, and you know, maybe there's not as much payoff in terms of views, but it's just so engaging, it's a ton of fun. I think the funny thing about Vermont is like there's a whole heaps of runners, like post-collegiate runners, but they almost all run just the dirt roads, like almost no one is ever on the long trail running, because it's. I remember like I had set the camel's hump round trip record and then I think like for some reason, hillary allen was talking about camel's hump, just like, coincidentally that same week or something. It was like I can't believe people ever run this, um, like it's, is this even possible to run? And I think that's, that's sort of the mentality, that's sort of the like, the experience. I think a lot of runners have going to new england, this and, and even like the southeast, you know, black mountains and stuff, it's like, wow, this is a whole different sport yeah, yeah, dude.

Speaker 1 23:40

I mean, when you're on the topic of the black mountains, like I was, just what did? I did quest for the crest, I ran 25K, which was the new distance they added a couple of years ago. Dude, like that terrain is gnarly, like the, especially I know you have the FKT on the up-down for Mount Mitchell and like that section it's pretty like nasty terrain, like I think it's kind of slept on, like that whole area is a beautiful area um, yeah, I also have the fkt for the black mountain crest traverse and the art lobe trail, um, which is nearby point to point.

Speaker 2 24:16

Um, yeah, I also won quest one year too, uh, 2022. And yeah, I mean, rip a little bit for the trails after helene. It's I such a bummer, but man, the old growth up there at 5,000-6,000 feet on Mitchell is on the Black Mountain crest, is spectacular, absolutely spectacular. It's so fun to be up there in the middle of winter just getting hammered by the wind on the crest and then able to run through the mossy sections on the way down and, um, yeah, it slept on, but I don't know, I don't, I don't think people need to necessarily go there. You know, keep it, that's true, keep it quiet.

Speaker 1 25:03

Keep it quiet, that's fair so, dude, what are you, what are you doing out in santa fe? Like, what do you think? How's the trail running out there? Um, like, how do you like that community? Like, how's the trail community there? Is there good stuff? Like, what's your take on it?

Speaker 2 25:17

um, yeah, I'm trying to. I'm trying to like figure out I don't know. I'm trying to figure out my life a little bit. So I I'm, I think, having bounced around a whole lot like santa fe is a is a great spot to try, and I mean the housing situation is a bit tricky, but, um, no, it's super. It's just a beautiful town and it's just like very peaceful and the trails are, are, are good. They're not like super epic, I would say, at least not in the winter, the foothills, but really nice, great training.

Speaker 2 25:48

The ski ski resort lets you skin uphill wherever, whenever, just as long as you're not an idiot about it and you're not far. The Sandias are only an hour away and that's talking about slept on. I mean, it's like fantastic steep, technical, desert-y running and there's all these wilderness areas like the gila and apache kid to the south and taos to the north, and you're a half day from the san juan. So it's a great spot, um, and there's yeah, there's some really cool people here, um, in the sport and like tangential to the sport and great food. So so, yeah, I don't know, it seems like a. I'm enjoying it, so far, I think.

Speaker 1 26:34

I've never heard someone say anything negative about it, like I've heard only good things about New Mexico.

Speaker 2 26:39

No, absolutely. And I mean in terms of, you know, like I mentioned I, I study regional planning and it's one of the few sort of like mountain areas that is at least making an effort, you know, in terms of conservation and housing, affordability and across the board. You know, wildfire prevention, prescribed burns and food systems, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a cool place to be, I think, etc. So it's a cool place to be. I think it's a little bit like the ashville north carolina of the southwest, just a little bit less, um, a little older, let's, let's say the average age is quite a bit older have you bumped into, uh, ricky gates or jeff kuno down there, and those are two.

Speaker 1 27:27

I know ricky gates obviously is a legend, je, jeff Cuno is a phenomenal athlete, phenomenal mountain runner, yeah, I bumped into Ricky just a couple times.

Speaker 2 27:39

He's good friends with my friend, so yeah, but Ricky has young kids and I think he's involved in different projects. Uh, young kids and I think he's involved in different projects, so uh, um, yeah, it's not like we're hanging out or anything Gotcha. Um, although I also, just you know, got here more long-term just a couple of weeks ago, jeff, I actually am.

Speaker 1 28:05

I'm not familiar with Jeff. No, you guys got to get together. I can get you guys connected after the pod. Yeah, dude, jeff's. Jeff's a beast and phenomenal athlete. I mean, he's a little bit more. He's less involved in the FKT scene and more involved in the racing scene, but, yeah, you guys would get along really well. He's a, he's a buddy of mine. Yeah, that's interesting, dude. So it's cool to see the New Mexico scene.

Speaker 1 28:23

I know, like I said Ricky Gates before, where he's always talking so highly of it. So, um, dude, let's pivot a little bit. I want to talk I do really want to talk about Nolan's, just because I had to say, like, out of the many, like many, many things that you've done in your career, I think that's one that people really know you for and it's really stood out. Um, you know, I know that's more of an M like like a more like open-ended question. Uh, I think more. So I want to understand, like was the motivation all the way back from when you were with, you know, helping Alex on the route, and then you figured like eventually I'd come back and do this, um, and then we can kind of talk about the effort itself.

Speaker 2 29:02

Yeah, no, I mean again not to like go back all the. You know, 10 years ago, every single but Nolan's's has been on. It was a huge deal back then, like everyone was trying it and you know anton was writing about it, I mean gary robbins, I think adam campbell, um, it was a big challenge and and uh, and very competitive and sort of one of the few fkts that was like a. You know it's an alternative to a part. You know sort of one of the few FKTs that was like a. You know it was an alternative to a part. You know, sort of like a cousin of hard rock and it was a. It was a challenge for, like the pros, let's call it and, but it's also like incredibly aesthetic and and and at times kind of gnarly and you know it's it's an Alpine route.

Speaker 2 29:45

Um, so, yeah, it was on my radar even before uh, 2018 with alex's attempt, but, yeah for sure, after um, let's call it accompanying alex, I, I was like um, I'm definitely coming back at some point. I thought it would be more of a lifelong project and I did it. What, five years later?

Speaker 1 30:11

yeah, I remember what your Alex did.

Speaker 2 30:12

It was like yeah five years later, yeah, yeah. So I mean, right after Alex did it, like I then went and hit all the peaks, like at least you know that summer, and then the next summer, yeah, and then I got, you know, I was in Idaho in 2020 and it was sort of on my I. I was sort of like, as I got more into sort of harder scrambling it was, I was always thinking about how and like just you know, burly long runs and stuff, how it might help with Nolan's in some way and it it all did. I mean, um, yeah, so so that was my project for 2023. And it was a bit of a wild ride.

Speaker 2 30:56

I wouldn't say I aced the execution and there, definitely, like I had some different. You know, it was like the hottest day in Leadville when I did it, which, know, it's a it's a bit of a saga, but um, yeah, I'm proud of it. I mean I I think there's time to come off. I w I would consider doing it again even. But um, yeah, no one's with no one's. I love it's. It's just a class, it's a classic for a reason you know.

Speaker 1 31:27

Yeah, it's so interesting to me and for the audience that is not aware of the record. Like your record since 2023, nobody's even come come close, like it hasn't been touched.

Speaker 1 31:36

You lowered joey campanelli's, I think unsupported time by how many hours was like it was um two hours, yeah, something like that, and like dude, just what it I mean I it's hard for someone like me, who predominantly does sub-ultra stuff, to think about how long, how grueling and how terrible you must have felt towards the end of that entire effort. So we'll get into that. What I'm curious about, because I've had I can't remember if it was Aaron Tan Someone said to me on the podcast about your lifestyle going into it, how you you kind of ate, slept and drank it, like this was very important to you and you took it very seriously like a consummate professional going into it. Can you maybe talk about, without giving away any inside baseball? Maybe talk about a little bit like what, your preparation for going into it?

Speaker 2 32:26

Yeah, well, okay, so 2023,. I was living in Asheheville in the spring. I went and raced ultra trail snowdonia, which, um, which didn't go exactly to plan, but it was like actually a perfect training run that took me. I got third, but it took like 27 hours or something. Um, I got really bad cramps.

Speaker 2 32:49

It's a long day out man, yeah, pretty long day out, and so then I drove my car out to colorado and I I'd done so much camping in the saw watch, saw watch before, just under those peaks I just did that again. So I just slept in my tent and projected the route like every single day. I was doing like 40 hour weeks up there, but not for that long. I only did that for like three weeks, I think, or four. I was there for probably five, six weeks and it was a snowy year. So it was one of those that I've implemented. I've actually implemented in this, in future FKTs too, which is like I kind of try to like uh, sort of destroy myself in the training a little bit like make it harder than the race will be. So doing some of those lines full of snow that was actually like pretty treacherous um made the attempt itself feel like a breeze, so that worked out.

Speaker 2 33:52

But yeah, I was just doing long days.

Speaker 2 33:53

I was doing long days on the route and I didn't have you know the way to properly see it, I guess is to try to do um, to have a buddy with a and do carpools, and I only did that once, uh, with a friend down in salida, henry Harris, who you might know yeah, I'm familiar with the name yeah, um, so, in other words, I was doing a ton of like loops and out and back, so just the time added up, but, yeah, I was spending a ton of time at altitude and just living it. I, um, yeah, drinking wild water, you preparing myself on all levels, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was awesome, it was everything. I was hoping it. You know, I was dreaming about doing Nolan's half, mostly not, like I said, I'm not, I'm not all that competitive, but the process really drives me and and just the, the, the. You know, I want to go back because I hadn't been out West for a handful of years and I just had such fond memories of camping under there and uh, so that's what I did, yeah, that's amazing, man.

Speaker 1 35:01

I I'm just so curious from a supportive perspective. Were you and like what you did for water? Just because I know how like people think, like oh, it's the high peaks, like it's cool up there and you're not like it's so easy to get dehydrated and it's so hard to find water Like, were you very dialed with okay, I'm going to stop at this Like, did you plan every component and every piece out for getting aid and getting water and then knowing the streams and stuff like that? Like, I'm just so curious on how you program and plan for something that's such a big attempt.

Speaker 2 35:34

Um, yeah, actually I did, I ended up. So I ended up doing it, uh, going forward on hard rock weekend or hard rock day, which wasn't exactly my choice, but, um, there was. Basically I was trying to align it with a brand that was going to come out and help slash, take photos, but then they bailed the week of. So I, I just did it anyway. So I had three people help and but it was good because I had memorized the entire route. Like I could have done it unsupported for sure, I mean like extremely low calories, but yes, I knew all the water sources, I knew the route. I didn't need a GPS either, if I, you know if some shit went wrong with my tracking, I mean with my nav, so but it was a bummer that was so hot, because you know Princeton, I think, really does hurt. Um, you know it's, it's kind of early on the route and you, you, most people are feeling good by then, but it's enormous mountain and uh, and that is where and it is pretty sparse on water sources, and then you're on the CT for quite a while before you finally hit the hit the Princeton Road there and you just get baked. I got so, so trashed with the heat, but luckily I don't know, I guess I'm pretty good at that sort of thing, but luckily I don't know, I guess I'm pretty good at that sort of thing I had to take a sit, like going up Yale and just try to recover, which I was not happy about, but just had to be done and then it was OK after that. So, yeah, I mean it's one of those things like Nolan's officially is yeah, it's only 95 miles, but it's officially a big enough project that like things are going to go wrong, I think, no matter what, like even if you had a perfect, it's one of those types of routes where you could have like a perfect day until albert and then blow up on massive and like crawl it in and lose the time. So it's, you know, retrospectively it's like all these things were not ideal or could have gone better, but it's.

Speaker 2 37:56

I think so much of these types of routes have to do with your headspace and like it's not just your like physical capacity, it's also where you are in your life and your motivations, and that's why I really like projecting them, because I feel like I can. I can I mean it doesn't always work like sometimes I feel like you can leave yourself in the train. You know you can basically associate the trail with being in such a world of hurt that it's not fun anymore. You know, um, but in this case I was totally stoked so I think I just made it happen and I I did have, you know, henry helped me for quite a lot, for for a couple peaks, and jack kensel was out there, that was totally indispensable. And then sean van horn helped me. Uh, he just gave me some night stuff on um, on belford must have been, or oxford, yeah. So yeah, I mean you could totally do it like team supported, have someone with you at all times. I mean people have. I think the women's record is essentially like that right now.

Speaker 1 39:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:09

Um, but also knowing that Joey camps did it unsupported was like, well, there's, there's no real excuse.

Speaker 1 39:15

You know, it's like yeah, yeah, what he did was insane, dude. I mean like back in what 2020, it was like during the pandemic or something like that when he uh, like he set his record. I just remember I think it was Dylan had him on the free trail podcast and like him talking about I was like holy shit, like just completely redefined like that route, uh, doing it completely unsupported and how fast he went. So it is a cool line, man, it is a very cool line. Do you think? I mean it's like one of those things where, like you did so well on it, I, I, it might not be touched for a long time. Do you think you'll ever go back and try and lower it? Or do you think it's like a you're going to turn the book on it or close the book on it and it's kind of done for that chapter of your life.

Balancing UTMB Expectations and Realities

Speaker 2 39:58

I would kind of like to I'm not, I'm not sure I, I, I have a, I have I. I still, I kind of wanted it would be fun if someone took it to then go back and try to break it again, I think. I think it's indicative of how the sport is changing, though that no one I mean a few people have tried it, but no one like super duper, seriously, and I don't want to say you have to be like a pro to break it, because that would be pretty arrogant. But it's not like the pros are giving it a shot anymore. Like you know, when Zach Miller had to pull out of Hard Rock last year, people were floating that oh, I mean, you've been messing around in the San Juans, why don't you just go give Nolans a crack? I'm sure he considered it. He considered it, like I know. Maybe Brandon was pushing it a little bit, yeah, but you know he went and tried to do something. You know what did he do in the end? I don't know. Something flatter, basically it was like arizona.

Speaker 1 40:58

What was it? The grand canyon? The rim to room? Maybe it was.

Speaker 2 41:02

Maybe that was later yeah, I can't remember yeah, yeah, or did he do ut? No, this was last year, so yeah, but point being is, like you know, then I so after Nolan's I tried to go show up because I had a slot, an elite slot for UTMB. I tried to show up at UTMB six weeks later like kind of like an idiot, I mean again like I had. It was a bit of a shit show to get there and the scene and the brand stuff, but um, so I wasn't exactly in the right head space but I was also like sleeping at 11,000 feet. That for the in the interim and training all at above 10, which is awesome, except when you have to go run six minute pace for 30 miles, you know, at 3 000 feet for utmb is like wow, this. But it was cool. Like all these people, you know all the americans, like pretty much all of them like congratulated me, which was, which was sick. But I always also realized I'm the idiot here who just did like a 39-hour thing six weeks ago. Everyone else is taking this seriously. They're peaking for this and they're doing the specific tempos you need and not overtraining. I mean I'm sure a lot of them were overtraining, sure, but you know what I mean Sports changed in that back when those guys were getting after Nolans, they could also go.

Speaker 2 42:33

I think it was a lot less structured. People were racing more maybe not quite as well and just spending more time in the mountains. It was less professional, it just was. Then, yeah, it was less professional, it just was. So it's hard to imagine a guy like Zach, you know, in the next few years devoting his time to Nolan's instead of UTMB and who knows what sort of financial incentives are on the line for either. I know some athletes are paid to do FKTs, I don't know, but I mean I'm sure it's way more for UTMB obviously.

Speaker 1 43:11

So right, let's talk a little bit about UTMB. Now was your first year there 22 or 23? 22. It was 22. Okay, so the reason.

Speaker 1 43:21

I'm going to. I'm bringing up 22 and then going into 23. And the reason I bring up 22 is because, like, I feel like that was the year where for you I mean just from like outside media, like free trail, started picking up on you, like when they did like the, the picks and stuff. Like people were picking you for UTMB as this, like you know, this outlier, there was like video surfacing of you like training with like or running around with like Hayden Hawks and a few others and, um, like there there was some serious hype train. And then you go and you do the race and you didn't have the day you wanted and that must have been for you pretty tough man. That must have been very frustrating to not have the day you wanted, because, just like myself and others who believe in you, you're damn well capable of having a phenomenal day on that course. Can you talk about your experience there and just like what that might have done? Like it must have been very frustrating.

Alps Training and UTMB Experience

Speaker 2 44:16

Thanks, yeah, I mean yeah, so okay, so I wrapped up my classes at grad school in 2022 and I don't remember exactly what my train of thought was, but I got like a cheap three month rental in the alps. That I was kind of idiot about because you know, it's like you can be as the crow flies like 12 miles from chamonix or whatever 20, 28 miles from chamonix, but it's going to take you like three hours to get there, it's going to take you like two hours to drive there and like six or nine to take the bus. So, um, so I was like pretty isolated in the end, which was, which was okay, you know, it was just a bit lonely, but I just took the. You know there were a couple buses that I could take a day to get around. So I spent like three months there and trained my ass off like holy shit, I was, I was ripped, I wasn't, I was.

Speaker 2 45:11

So I, like I said, I got in really good shape in ithaca, kind of like just blue collar, like training at night, and you know it's hard to run in ithaca. So I was and alex was coaching me, so we hit some, some great workouts and so then I rocked up and I think I surprised a lot of people at breakneck. Although, to be fair, it's like this is kind of the problem with west coast running runners going to the east coast is like, well, I'm just didn't get off trail because I had just spent. You know, I was living in ithaca, like I knew how to follow tree blazes.

Speaker 2 45:45

It's it's its own skill and yeah it was a national champ qualifier, so a lot of people showed up and got lost or like ran at 80 because they had no idea where the trail. Anyways, that's a. That's a different rant that's a.

Speaker 1 45:59

That's a great conversation, because you almost beat max that day.

Speaker 2 46:01

We could talk about that one after yeah, but yeah, so I, I, I ended up picking up all these. It was a super competitive race, breakneck 2022. And I drove over at the end of my class, slept in my car and, you know, ran with Eric Lapuma for quite a while. We picked off all these guys and then Eric bonked, I believe. I then met Max on like the last big climb so, and he was like in the hurt locker so then we battled it out for the last like three miles. It was kind of epic. There's a video I'm very, very proud of that. He beat me, um, so I didn't get to go to worlds. He beat me by like six seconds, but it was so close.

Speaker 2 46:51

Yeah, yeah, it was close um, and obviously, you know, max had gone to cornell, uh, back in the day, so it was kind of like a cool situation. And then I went in one quest like quite a lot, and um felt really good. So I was just, I had a lot of confidence. Then I went and did my euro thing and I was just training so hard. But I was also a bit of an idiot about it because, you know, there was like a couple of 7 000 foot climbs out the door. So instead of doing, you know, like I mentioned before, after the so okay, it's confusing because I was talking about 2023, but 2022 I was just doing like very steep stuff and just really getting after it in the Alps. And yeah, there are steep sections of UTMB, but fundamentally it's a running race and I wasn't doing a whole lot of running, running, but I was putting up like 55,000 foot weeks. I think Jesus Christ, like quite a lot I was doing, yeah and I was, and all weeks, I think Jesus Christ, like quite a lot I was doing, yeah and I was, and all of it was quality. I mean most of it. Like I felt good, like every day. It was crazy. I think it really helped for Nolan's the next year.

Speaker 2 48:03

But so where I was staying was like a 40 minute bus ride to teens Valdecer area, which so happened to be where tom evans and hayden hawks and scotty hawker and, um a few other guys were doing their training camp, um which you know tom evans ultimately got second, I think, that year. Yeah, so I I did a decent amount of training with them. Uh, christian meyer was there, um, and it was awesome. I mean because I was just, I was just like totally, you know, again, I didn't have any support, I was getting gear from innovate, but I but I was just, yeah, blue collaring, I was just putting up the numbers and enjoying the Alps and so to get in a bit of some training with these guys and have a bit of banter, and you know, of course I could keep up with all.

Speaker 2 49:01

We did a bunch of long runs, we did the whole. I did the whole CCC course split up in two days with Hayden and Christian and I mean I was was running. We hit the first 20. He tried to tempo the first like 20 miles or something of the season at course record pace you know his course record and I kept with him for like 18 miles of it. I was shocked um, and then I kind of waddled it in till champa lock.

Speaker 1 49:30

But either way, it's all amazing dude yeah, hayden's number one ultra runner of the year this year.

Speaker 2 49:36

Like that's bananas totally, I mean, and man, he's a great dude to run with, like he's awesome, and so is tom um. So another like surreal experience for me, you know, and I it was cool that they took me seriously as well, and I don't know how much of that was just based on strava or or just how much passion I had for running or or what I don't know. But yeah, I guess, guess I was, I was in the conversation, um, I was in the conversation that year and and and, to be perfectly honest, I don't think this is spring Like I had the fitness to run like 20 hours. No, no, no doubt about it. I was then over-trained and probably, and had some injury issues, and the race week is just very, was very stressful for me and it was just, you know, it's tough to be there renting like a shitty ass tiny ski condo thing and showing up at the expo and everyone else is like in the regalia and you know, at the uh, the chalets and I don't know, it's just, it's, it's, it's strange to go from like you're up there alone, like pouring your heart out in training, to like this jam-packed chamonix full of photographers and advertisements and you know the hullabaloo, it's, it's.

Challenges of UTMB Competition

Speaker 2 51:10

It's really jarring actually, I think, um, and especially to feel like you have a chip on your shoulder and you want to be taken seriously. But you know you're, you're a lone ranger. Yeah, I don't know it's, it's, it's complicated, but yeah, so I didn't do well, and then you know, of course it's the classic, everyone else dropped out too. But you know, you feel like you really, you really shit the bed, like you really failed and yeah, it was rough, it was hard. Um, I don't know, I fly solo so much so I had to digest it myself and I don't know, I poured it into Nolan's the next year. So it's hard to complain.

Speaker 1 52:03

And I went to Asheville and it's, it is, it's, I don't know, like it's gotta be not just frustrating, but like it's gotta be just a lot in Chamonix, with you know, especially the next year and what in 23,. You were there. You know people, there's always an ask of you. People always want something from you. They, you know, everybody's got something that you need to do, or this, that and the other, and that's gotta be a lot and frustrating when all you want to do is just focus on your craft and focus on your race, but there's just all this other bullshit involved where you know you have just expectations from other things.

Speaker 2 52:44

So I understand that it's got to be annoying well, and it's also a bit of a dick measuring contest, I mean, just in that it's kind of like being in a hyper competitive place, but just like hyper concentrated. Everyone you show up at the expo and everyone's like, oh, I don't know. It's kind of the euro thing too. It's like, oh, are they in shape, are they skinny? It's like weird, weird, it's a weird vibe. Well, you know what I mean. I mean it's oh, yeah it's kind of explicit there.

Speaker 2 53:11

I mean not necessarily in chamonix, but in Europe. But yeah, like, are you looking fit? I mean that's part of it. I think the expectations and the yeah, I mean it's. You know everyone's walking around in their matching sponsored track suits, like with their fingernails cleaned up. You know, yeah, it's just it. You know yeah, it's just it's. It's crazy, it's. It's just like a whole, yeah, totally different sport. It's.

Speaker 2 53:40

It's um, yeah, like I said, it's kind of jarring sometimes. I don't think it has to be that way. Like you know, you can be in your little bubble, I think that's. I think jim is pretty on the record of like he just shows up for the um to pick up his bib and then for race day and he doesn't do any of the other. But it's not.

Speaker 2 54:01

I know people are like, oh, um, shaman, he's hard because there's too many interviews. That that's not my problem. In fact, it's a little bit of the opposite, because it's like you want, like I said, it's like you want to be taken seriously and you feel like everyone else is being taken seriously and even though my bib was like number 50 or whatever, no one gave a shit and so. But it's also a classic. Like I did my race in training, like I wanted to be taken seriously because I crushed my training, but that's not the race. Because I crushed my training, but that's not the race. Like the races, you know you could. Plenty of people did half the training and race better. So that counts more in the in the, at least in that context, like personally in my own, you know right, you know my memories of that summer. It's. That's not the case. Like I had such a great time the whole summer. It's.

Speaker 1 54:56

It's hard to be just be so fixated on the race right right that's not the experience the experience is all the things that you did leading up to, which is probably super fun. Sorry, my dog's just like jumped on me um, yeah, no, I agree man do you think you ever go back? You'll ever go back? Is it something you think you'd ever go back and do, or you think they'd close the chapter on it?

Speaker 2 55:17

Yeah, no, I totally want to go back. I mean, I think I've matured, like I know what to do, to do well, and there are some variables, like you know, getting support to go there, which is not totally, totally in my control. But yeah, I want to go back. I think I might try to be try to race into it so this year to then go next year. But yeah, I want to, I I want to give it a shot. I feel like it's like I want it.

Speaker 2 55:48

I want to run 21 hours, like I think that would be cool. I don't even know if that would place me anymore, you know, because, uh, it's kind of ridiculous now, but I kind of like the. I kind of like the juxtaposition in the sport right now where all these guys are coming from the track and are super athletes. But I still feel like UTMB could be the spot where someone with more of a mountain background could compete and I think that would be just like really fulfilling. If I could throw, you know, if I could, um, mix it up yeah, yeah, I mean, dude, the opportunity.

Speaker 1 56:27

I mean look at cody lynn this year. I mean he's got more. He's less of a track runner, if you will. Came from a sky running background and look at what he did. I think he ran into the top 10 and had himself, you know, one of the days of his life outside of Western States. So a hundred percent. Look at Ludovic Pomeroy, he's like 200 years old and ran himself into the top 10.

Speaker 1 56:46

So yeah, the opportunity is it is not gone. I mean you've got your gyms, you've got your super athletes. But I do really agree with you is that, especially on the Euro side and I think you represent this like interesting dichotomy, that, like you've been in the mountains for so long and doing all these mountain things, your background definitely is more of a mountain athlete than anything. But it's this beautiful crossover between the two where you know one of the two is going to have their day. I mean, dude, look at francois. I'd say he's not really a track athlete like he's, he's a mountain athlete and still, you know, on any day he could come back and win that race. So yeah, it's interesting, um, but there there's definitely stones to be unturned there still for sure no, absolutely yeah, and cody had an epic day like what a race.

Speaker 2 57:33

And no, I, I totally agree, and I think that's why I think utmb is still um so cool, like I think western states and stuff is cool as well, but it is a bit of a formula um, and you know, I just love their certain like anecdotes, like I remember xavier you know who's a beast of all the utmb races that there was some blog post he did actually in 2022 on his nutrition sponsors website and if you like pencil out what his race nutrition plan was, he was having like 20 grams of carbs an hour and like only drinking saint urée water that he was sponsored. But like it's just not. You know, I, I think it's. It's a playing field where, yeah, the like craziness of the sport can still shine through and you know people can I mean, yeah, you know, you know people can, like kat Katie Scheid can train like an ungodly amount and do really well and compete again, yeah, so it's super dynamic. I love it. I think. I mean maybe it'll become more formulaic soon.

Speaker 2 58:44

I think it's interesting to see all the brands start developing shoes like specifically for UTMP, like it's not explicit necessarily, although all the shoes that are called mont blanc, I guess, are pretty explicit. But true, you know, like I guess that's um, but like all the shoes that are basically really cushioned, running shoes that you can't really take off trail but are forced, like it, that's a utmb shoe. It's crazy to think about the amount of innovation that is purely for this one race. So maybe it'll become more of a science soon, but I think still there's plenty of opportunity to to like yeah, surprise people, surprise yourself.

Speaker 1 59:25

Like have a one in a million day, I think yeah yeah, I mean I, I don't think that anybody's got to figure it out yet and I think they'll, like I may be killing fr Francois level, but like, and it's hard, I would put Jim somewhere near there, but like the fact that Jim's had so many cracks at it and only did it once makes me feel like it. Yeah, it's not that easy to figure this, this race out. It is significantly more difficult than people give it credit for. So yeah, I don't know man.

Speaker 2 59:56

It than people give it credit for. So, yeah, I don't know, man, it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think katie and courtney are have kind of figured it out. Yes, yes, so, but I mean that time when yeah, 2022 when katie battled out with, uh, marianne hogan, that was that was insane. I mean it's close race. Yeah, yeah, it was race and she like broke her hip and it's crazy. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it it's close race. Yeah, yeah, it was race, and she like broke her hip and it was crazy.

Perspectives on Trail Running and Racing

Speaker 1 1:00:15

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's um, yeah, it's crazy that, like that's where the Superbowl of our race has gone, or Superbowl of our sport essentially has gone. Let's talk a little bit about, is you're? You're very interesting to me. I, I meet a lot of people. Some people are extremely competitive, like over the top killers, like they have to win, and then I meet other people that are very much searching for it's the journey in the soul, and then I meet people where it's a little bit of in-between you kind of are on the spectrum of in-between to also you think very deeply, the preparation matters to you. You're a very interesting character in the sport. Can you like? You're a very interesting character in the sport. Can you maybe talk about your approach and like how you view it, because I think your perspective is very unique?

Speaker 2 1:01:02

uh, thanks, um, yeah, uh, yeah, I don't know how to articulate the, my approach. So I mean I just I love, I love getting the flow state on runs, like that's kind of. And I think the FKT scene has really, you know, has really been motivating to me the last few years because, yeah, because of that creative element and because, for whatever reason, I just yeah, I like, I like, I like feeling like I'm working, I'm pushing, like it's almost like I'm racing the trail rather than other people or I don't know. But yeah, the experiences I had last, I mean two years ago, nolans and then cactus to cloud mount, san jacinto, and art lobe and orizaba man, that was truly an unreal, um experience. Just staying at a hostel up there and running up the mountain every day, that was, that was, that was insane.

Speaker 2 1:02:10

Like that's the type of thing you know, I think fkt's fill my bucket and maybe racing, you know I have to uh, take out, withdraw some deposits, if you want to use that metaphor a little bit um, but yeah, I, I don't know, I don't know why I like, I still like racing, but I do, I love fkt, I don't know, but yeah, racing um, still like I, I don't know, I guess I get the adrenaline from it. And yeah, it's true, I like to sort of prepare, although I'm it's hard for me to like in this day and age. You know, I did speed goat in the rut and trophy last year and it's like so obvious what I needed to do to run 10 to 20 minutes faster at all those races which would have, you know, gotten me third or whatever, like move me a place up. And I just didn't do that because I was like scrambling it's having fun enjoying yourself.

Speaker 2 1:03:12

Yeah yeah, um. So it's like I kind of beat myself up for that a little bit, but it's having fun enjoying yourself. Yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 2 1:03:15

So it's like I kind of beat myself up for that a little bit, but it's like then you know, there's no regrets, so, and then I got to use it for the world and so it all worked out banana's record um, but yeah, I don't know, I like, I like, I like the sport still, I, I like to test myself, I like like to race people see how, at this point, I know a lot of people too on these start lines and it's cool to catch up and yeah, that's a big part of it for me and I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:03:49

Yeah, yeah, no. It's a beautiful answer, man. It's very interesting just because everybody's approach is different. Everybody has different motivators for what pushes them, and it's nice to hear yours. I do want to talk a little bit about 2024. Namely because I think you're the only person I've ever spoken to that's raced Trophy Okima. Can you talk about that experience, because that is a sick race, yeah.

European Sky Racing

Speaker 2 1:04:13

Yeah, yeah, so I, that was the one. Was that the one? I think that might've been the one international race I did. I mean, I don't, yeah, um, I, I showed up, I, I I rented a car and brought my tent and I slept under the route thinking it'd be sort of chill. It wasn't that chill to do that. I'm not sure if I would do that again, but it was a it was well worth it.

Speaker 2 1:04:47

I, I did the route a bunch of times and like got really into it and those mountains are stunning. It's like Yosemite they call it the Yososemite of Italy, but I don't think that really does. Or the Alps, you know, but I don't think that really does it justice because the scale is so massive, massive, and it's very green there. It's not quite as like alpine as as other, you know, as as north, further north, so it's just it's it's yeah, it's hard to describe. It's just like it's just kind of crazy. Um, all these slopes are like 30, 40, you know, like 20 to 40 percent and really rocky. It's a little bit east coasty in that, in that vibe, but also like the climbs are 7 000 feet, jesus, like the first climb of the race is like 6 900 feet or something and, um, you go over seven passes. There's a bit of scrambling. It's nothing insane, you know. Maybe it touches fourth class here and there. What is insane is the speed that these euros and also jack and finley, um take them like holy moly, man, it's, it's dangerous, you know, like it's um, it's great, it's. It's. It's like the one race I've ever been in where I was racing against people. I was obviously fitter than because I would pass them on all the uphills and they would just, you know, kamikaze it on the downhills and no one dropped out it's.

Speaker 2 1:06:19

It's also like one of these races that you're up on this sort of like, this sort of like a ridge. I mean, you go to these different paths. It's not quite a ridge most of the trail, but it is very tricky underfoot and all these people have hiked up five to seven thousand, like hundreds of people were on the route to cheer you on, hundreds, yeah, and helicopters and stuff. It's just, it's just nutty, um, but it was super competitive as well. It's. It's a great experience.

Speaker 2 1:06:45

I like highly recommend it. Um, it's not like impossible to it's. It's sort of like the presidential traverse. Yeah, that's kind of how I would liken to it in terms of like the effort and also the sort of like full on nature of the course.

Speaker 2 1:07:02

The last descent is hilarious because, yeah, it's like again, it's like 7,500 foot descent and from the last pass to the valley foot descent and from the last pass to the valley and you're everyone's nuking it. And there's this whole section in the trees where actually cutting the switchbacks is easier than taking the trail, because the trail is rocky and the and cutting it is more loamy. But it's like, incredibly, you know, it's like 50, it's very, very steep and very treacherous and, um, cause you could like kick a rock and so, um, but also just after like 12,000 feet of climbing to just bomb it down. This stuff, even though I'd practiced it quite a lot, was just I don't know. It's cool, it's. It's one of those things you can't really replicate outside of that setting, in that race environment. So, yeah, racing in Europe is crazy. I think that's nuts man.

Speaker 1 1:08:02

Two questions for you. One is that the only race you've ever done where you have to wear a helmet the entire time, and is that mandatory? Do you have to wear the helmet the whole time?

Speaker 2 1:08:10

So I think that they implemented that fairly regular recently because there had been some uh, different accidents. I don't know if it's for insurance purposes, you didn't quite have to wear it the entire time. Um, there are different dangers on the route. I'm not sure if rockfall is the primary danger, so I don't know how much you know. You know how, like helmets make people take tiny bit extra more risk in different other sports. I do sort of think maybe that's um, but they have like a bunch of ridiculous rules, like you have to wear capris, like three-quarter length tights interesting, um. Or you can wear shorts, but then you have to carry rain pants. There's just like random. You know you have to bring gloves, and it's all a little unclear because then when you show up on the start line, the Italians don't have any of it. So it's like whatever.

Speaker 1 1:09:06

Yeah, that's funny. Why is it every two years? I've been asking this question to so many people and no one could give me an answer.

Speaker 2 1:09:12

Years I've been asking this question to so many people and no one could give me an answer. I mean, I think maybe it's to minimize the probability of having really bad conditions, I don't know. Okay, where it's hard to put on. I mean, it's definitely tricky to put on logistically and also the pre-rate like for instance, the pre-race briefing the night before took like two hours because the people in the town get involved and there's all these different roles for people Like the meteorologist has a big role, and so they spent like forever going over the course, like the nitty gritty, google Earth course details PowerPoint, as if it was going like like what are we gonna do? Like memorize the google earth the night before? I have no idea. Like the yeah, the mediograms and the history, like so people pour a lot of you know the powerpoints were like a someone's full year gig or apparently two years, I don't know. It's just all kind of funny yeah, interesting man.

Speaker 1 1:10:16

Yeah, I, I don't know. I haven't raced in europe yet it's high on my list. That is probably either that or some vks I'm super interested in, like I feel like trophy okay, or like I don't know. When I start opening up the list, it's like, holy shit, I could spend every summer in europe racing. There's just so much to do. Um, that's a little overwhelming, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 1:10:34

Well, yeah, and I also think, like I think experience running like specifically those types of sky races, it's so unique. I think like there is a bit of a you're not going to do so well. Your first year you got to go back, so it's kind of you have to do it for the fun of it because you're not going to have quite the like result. Like I don't think you can just show up to keem and be like oh I'm, I'm for sure, gonna get top five and it's gonna be like I'll get 300 euros. You know, that's not, that's not the way to approach that race.

Speaker 1 1:11:09

Interesting, yeah what do you have uh planned for 2025?

Speaker 2 1:11:15

um, I'm not really sure. I think I might try to do. Yeah, I'm not, I don't know. I think I'll do the jemez 50 here. That's been, you know, I've I've been wanting to do that for since 2016, you know, and uh, that's in may. I might cry, yeah, I might. I think I'm gonna try to race one of the utmb hundreds. Uh, getting there it's a little bit complicated, so tbd, um, but yeah, I mean I'm doing a fair amount of skiing right now. So that's that's kind of. I'm kind of stoked on that right now, not necessarily racing or anything, just I was just on a trip with my buddy who's a pro ski mountaineer guy, um, mike worth.

Speaker 2 1:12:03

He's a he's a monster yeah he's legit and so I just, yeah, did a bunch of skiing last week in the back country and letting that digest. So, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of taking it one step at a time, but I don't have any grand plans right now.

Speaker 1 1:12:21

Nice, man, nice, all right, let's talk Whirl. I feel like we got to slip in the Whirl before we end this. But what was that experience? Like dude, you absolutely slaughtered that course and it's a scary course. There's a lot of technicality to it, like talk a little bit of like. We'll just give me the the brief synopsis of the technicality of it, your preparation and kind of what went into it um, yeah, um, so, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, I mean it's a notorious route.

Speaker 2 1:12:51

it's it's kind of like one of these things that's all over the internet. Maybe because it's, yeah, it's, I mean it's a notorious route, it's it's kind of like one of these things that's all over the Internet, maybe because it's so close to Salt Lake and maybe because it is, I mean it's easy to get in in in a legit situation let's just say that Up there because it's so easily accessible but also like pretty full on at times. I think the route is interesting. I mean it's, it's a super aesthetic route and it's really fun to race because you know it's under a day, right, but, and it's 36 miles, but, um, you know you're only moving like two and a half miles, I don't know it's, it's a's a really cool challenge. There's, there's some trail, it's all ridge and, um, you know there's quite a lot of history to the route.

Speaker 2 1:13:41

But, to preface, I I'm I have a good friend in salt lake, blaine benitez, who I've gone, you know, just gotten to know a little bit since like 2020, and he's he's like the master of that route. I think it's safe to say like you can go on the leaderboards for some of the segments and you know you can, you can divide this, the route, into a handful of pretty discrete segments, uh, that are more or less difficult and like he's so far and away faster than anyone else, it's, it's it's shocking, it's crazy. And just to see him kind of like progress on that thing, and over the years I was, I was pretty uh, interested and but not really personally, like I never thought I'd really race it myself, just because I don't live in salt lake and it's I don't know. But I, you know, spent some, some time with, some time with Blaine and his buddy Jack Levitt this past summer and I kind of was like I don't know what flipped.

Speaker 2 1:14:51

I was having a really good time scrambling last year and I was just like, well, might as well give whirl a shot. Um, it's, there is quite a bit of fifth class, but it's tricky because or it's tricky to sort of define, because, at least to me, it doesn't feel that exposed, so like, yeah, the consequences of messing up on that are equally as bad as something like super exposed, I guess. But it didn't have quite the like scary feeling as some other stuff I've done, if that makes sense, yeah yeah yeah, it's a, I mean full-on super crazy route, just iconic.

Speaker 1 1:15:34

I've heard it expressed I think it was maybe Jack that had talked about it on Finn's podcast about it being I think he explained it kind of like a round right when, like different people, like the design originally was for different people to come out and do different sections with you. Did you treat it that way? I know you had Blaine out there with you right On some of the sections.

Speaker 2 1:15:57

Yeah, you know, I don't know. So Jared Campbell sort of like came up with it um like 20 years ago, I think. Maybe not that long, maybe that long, I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know if he was directly inspired by the Bob Graham round or not. I know Jack gave me some shit about he like made up this controversy about um, about mewling I guess yes, address that, because he said that on the finn's podcast yeah, I text him about that after.

Speaker 2 1:16:28

I mean, like blaine was pissed that yeah, it was kind of a strange. I'm not sure why he got into it. Um, because it's not really a well, like I, I did it supported, like it's been supported for forever. People have done it more or less supported, like duray, whose record, jason duray, whose record I beat or I was competing against and ultimately beat, did it definitely less sported. That's not like cause he I don't think that was necessarily an ethical decision, so I'm not entirely sure what the deal was. Also, jack helped me on that, so you know, on the world, but was was injured, so he didn't actually run with me and also I made up time on duray on all the sections that I did not have anyone with me, which is also kind of interesting. Like I'm not saying that the support didn't like totally help, but it's one of those things that I think he was sort of thinking about it in like an X's and O's like very direct manner and that's not what the support was doing for me. Like the support was because I'm I really associated the route with with my friends Jack Levitt and Blaine and then Josh who helped me and I think I had part of the reason I had such a good day was just them being there and sharing it with them and just shooting the shit with them. And you know, it wasn't like I don't know I it was weird that he, he would. He got so into it because, and when I texted him I was like what, what's the deal? And I don't, he didn't really explain what. Anyways, whatever, yeah, I also think there's a certain element of like you know, if he had set the record, like that would have been half the 2024 fin podcast year in review convo. But again, different story.

Speaker 2 1:18:36

Anyways, yeah, I got help on it, like blaine or no, sorry, jack did the first, uh, quite a, you know the a huge section with me at the beginning and it was incredibly helpful and it was a great time. I had a like a perfect day. I think I had. I even wrote it somewhere. It was like the best day in the mountains I've ever had hands down like that, that it just like everything went perfectly. I felt so good. I had just a. I really felt connected with my movements and with the mountains that day and, um, I mean, I did treat it like a race and that I was fueling well and thinking about splits and stuff like that, so it wasn't just like an adventure fest, but um, yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's, that's the my proudest effort for sure.

Speaker 1 1:19:27

It was, hands down, one of the I mean it was one of, if not the like 50 K ish efforts of the year. I mean performances of the year, like whether it be a race or whether it be an FKT. I mean it was phenomenal.

Speaker 2 1:19:41

Yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, it was. I mean I projected it a lot, so it's like like a really. I mean not like a really lot, like, like I said, I don't I don't live there, but I I'd been on some missions, that's for sure. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I've developed this skill set, you know, being being out there, being on exposed terrain, being scrambling and moving slow but efficiently and uh, route finding like it's. Those are my strengths and so I I'm, yeah, I'm glad I was able to pull it off on a really competitive route like that. I think, um, yeah, I don't know, I'm just proud of it, so yeah, I have a serious question for you.

Speaker 1 1:20:22

You're one of the few people with a very specific skill set and the reason I'll ask this is because, like, you can do up downs, you've got like, like a, like an orizaba right, but you can also scramble. You've got an enormous engine. You've got a very specific skill set to be able to do something like the grand, like. Is that something that interests you at all in the future?

Speaker 2 1:20:46

um, well, yeah, I mean, maybe I don't I really don't have history on the Grand. I also think it's so, travel like it's, you know, it's like you can go to Idaho, nearby, or the Wind Rivers or something, and have, like you know, a real one, like a really you know, just deep in the wilderness and have do some crazy stuff. You know, just deep in the wilderness and have do some crazy stuff. But it does feel to me like just parking at the bottom of the grand is so heinous and I mean I think, um, my sincerity, this last year, you know, I mean he did on what labor day, like, yeah, that's in part, I think, for different reasons, but, um, you know, so it was a zoo that doesn't attract me so much.

Speaker 2 1:21:32

I also there's no way, I mean it would take some very, very specific training to get fast enough to do a route like that, cause you do really have to hammer the first. I mean you have to hammer the whole thing. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure if I'm quite that talented, you know, in terms of, uh, speed. Um, jackson, cole, jackson, he's got the ability. Yeah, oh, man, he's got the ability. Like I would love to see him do it. I think it's on his radar. I don't know if the grand, after the sort of shit show, oh yeah, something that, um, you know athletes are really trying to do, um, you know athletes are really trying to do in the near future. But we'll see. Yeah, but no. To answer your question no, I'm not really trying to do the grant.

Speaker 1 1:22:22

It's just interesting to me, cause there's only, like I said, there's only so many people with the skillset to be able to go do something like that. And you know, especially now that it's gotten so turbid following Michelino's record, and like what went down after the fact, it's like, man, does anybody even want to do this anymore? Like is it going to be years and years before anybody even tries to attempt it? Um, you know, and and the fact that, like you, if you don't follow Andy Anderson's exact route, people lose their fucking mind over it. So it's like, well, what do you do? You know it's, it's complicated. Well, it's interesting the answer to that is you just follow andy anderson?

Mountain Trail Running and Wildlife Encounters

Speaker 2 1:22:53

yeah, oh, absolutely, that's the simple answer you just have to do. You just have to not give yourself the option of cutting. I mean, I don't know, it's kind of yeah, no, for sure, for sure but you're right, I mean also the trail.

Speaker 2 1:23:07

You know this is a constant problem of like building more switchbacks and I don't know I I think that's. The other problem with the grand is like it's. I I wouldn't want to race it when it's full of people and I think it's actually kind of sketch. It's like pretty dangerous to do that and obviously the guides don't like you being up there and no, none of the climbers want you up there, so it's not the most friendly place to do something like that.

Speaker 1 1:23:31

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. All right, dude, we've been doing this now for almost an hour and a half. I could I feel like I could do a three-hour pod with you. Um, I don't want to take all your time, so I'm going to start winding down with questions.

Speaker 2 1:23:43

I'm very curious to see who inspires you um, uh, I mean in the sport or outside the sport Doesn't matter, Say anybody.

Speaker 1 1:23:56

That just gets you stoked, for you know to do what you do.

Speaker 2 1:24:02

Yeah, I think, okay, without going into too much detail, I mean I think, well, okay, anton, for sure that's, that's yeah, I mean I don't know, I think that's kind of self-explanatory and I don't know, like the late great David Graeber, I do take quite a lot of inspiration maybe, maybe just in terms of like Orientation in life from From, yeah, from writers like David Graeber and also some literature and stuff like that. But I think if people haven't checked out David Graeber, that's an interesting rec that I think people who are like-minded to folks like you and me might really find a lot of value out of reading that.

Speaker 1 1:24:48

Interesting. No, I'll definitely check David Graeber out. I've never even heard of him so interesting. I know a lot of check David Graeber out. I've never, never even heard of him so interesting. I know you're probably a lot of people aren't music people that are runners, but is there a certain like hype song or music that you kind of listen to, especially on like a long effort?

Speaker 2 1:25:05

Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm definitely a music person. Um, it changes, it changes constantly. Um, it changes it changes constantly. Uh, but um, let's see. Hmm, yeah, it really depends on the route also. Um, I mean, yeah, I don't know if I have a great like one off recommendation right now, but I think something that maybe an interesting anecdote was when I was living in Asheville, I went and saw a small show Bill Callahan was playing, if people are familiar, and I wasn't like a massive fan of Bill Callahan, but it hit really hard, for whatever reason, and it just like totally informed how I like approached the trails that whole spring. I don't know why exactly. It was like, I don't know, asheville's a little bit moody sometimes and Bill Callahan is definitely moody, so I think that's, yeah, check out Bill Callahan if you're in the southeast, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 1:26:14

I do want to go back to Anton for a second. I don't know how much you guys have a relationship or if you've ever got a chance to meet him. I imagine he would have reached out to you after Nolans. Did he do such?

Speaker 2 1:26:29

No, I'm not sure. I mean, yeah, we chatted just a tiny bit. I mean, technically, I have run into him a couple times. Actually, when I was on Elbert, jack, Jack Kenzel called Anton somehow and put me on the line with him, which was kind of funny. That's crazy. Yeah, like at the top of Elbert, and put me on the line with him, which was kind of funny. That's crazy. Yeah, like at the top, albert. And you know it was kind of awkward for both of us, but it was cool. You know, jack's, yeah, jack's, funny.

Speaker 1 1:27:01

That's amazing. I guess that counts for sure. Oh yeah, so you talk to him. That's great motivation too, to finish the damn line Like that's crazy.

Speaker 2 1:27:09

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah all right.

Speaker 1 1:27:11

Um, yeah, anton's an interesting character dude like just uh, not a lot of people like know him super well in the sport, like I've, or like everybody's heard of him. Everybody knows who anton is, like literally everybody, but like as far as like personally knowing him, not many people like personally like have a relationship with him in the sport. He's kind of a so this mythical figure of a human. Um, all right. Last question, not so serious what's your take on bigfoot? You believe bigfoot?

Speaker 2 1:27:37

bigfoot, um no no not really. I mean, I do think there are interesting charismatic creatures out there, but not not necessarily bigfoot, you ever had any like weird experiences?

Speaker 1 1:27:52

I mean, if anybody spent time, some serious amount of time, in the mountains, it's you, so like you ever seen any like crazy shit out there?

Speaker 2 1:28:00

oh yeah, oh yeah, a lot of crazy shit. I mean especially, especially in the springs, you know.

Speaker 2 1:28:08

Oh yeah geez louise, that's um some weird phenomenon going on in colorado springs sometimes, but I mean I've seen a ton of yeah, I've seen some like really cool animals. I mean tons of bears. I've had some close grizzly encounters, tons of black bears, bobcats. I had a. The most amazing thing I ever would ever have, you know encounter I ever had was I was in the middle of Idaho because I was out there for the summer of 2020.

Speaker 2 1:28:40

And I was way up in the pioneer range and I had nothing with me, like zero, like I didn't even you know zero, like just my shorts, my one and a half inch shorts, and I had a like a pretty long day and I was running back and at sunset I still had like six or seven, seven or eight miles to go. So I was kind of trying to book it because I knew I'd be fumbling around in the dark and I turned this bend and ran right into a massive mountain lion, like the biggest mountain lion. It was, so big it was, it was like a car size, it was, it was. It was truly enormous and like so stunning. And we just like stopped and looked at each other, like made eye contact for like a second and then it bounded up the hill. Oh wow.

Speaker 1 1:29:42

That's amazing.

Speaker 2 1:29:43

It was so crazy, it was probably the most amazing moment of my whole life, like I swear. It was like spine tingling, you know know, and it was just like so majestic and fluffy what a great.

Speaker 1 1:29:56

I see mountain lions. I don't know, maybe I'm a psycho, but like I don't. Really I'm not necessarily like fearful of those, like I'd be way more scared of running into a grizzly bear, um, or like getting eaten by a moose or not eaten, but like chased by a moose like pissing off a moose, but like a mountain lion. That is so cool, man. Like we've been seeing a lot more of them in the spring, so I've had this like fascination with them lately, um, but yeah, oh well, I mean you know they see that.

Speaker 2 1:30:21

You know they're seeing you all the time, every day. Yeah, yeah, there's some mountain lions up at cheyenne canyon, right there's. You see their tracks pretty regularly. I remember that it was like I think it was brian their eyes too shout out to brian whitfield.

Speaker 1 1:30:32

I think he got a video of like two decent sized lions just like sitting there in the dark. He like I don't know if he ran past him or what, but like this was a few years ago. I think he put up a video on instagram of it. But yeah, they're, they're there, they're out there, dude, they're all over the incline now. Like people have been getting like videos like hanging out like downtown manitou, like at night, like walking, walking the streets and shit. So there's more. We live, like I'd say we live like two miles from there. So like my wife now has been giving me her time about like letting the dogs out night, like keeping an eye out, like looking for them, I'm like I don't think they're gonna mess with you, but yeah, they're cool animals, man it's uh, I, I think Alex has had one in his yard before, actually, did he really?

Speaker 2 1:31:14

Yeah, I think he and I live close to one another.

Speaker 1 1:31:15

I think he's an OCC also, if I remember right.

Speaker 2 1:31:17

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:31:19

That's interesting. Uh yeah, I'd be way more scared of grizzlies. I don't know that. That the the fact that like we don't have them in Colorado is kind of like don't, kind of um, is like a really nice thing. Quote, unquote. Uh yeah, at least in the Springs, you know.

Speaker 2 1:31:36

Yeah, I think grizzly, is it just easy to get? Uh, like I, I got real close to one in Canada over the summer. It was just like wow, that was. I mean I guess it was not surprising that he was hanging out there. But but um, yeah, I was, I was just like running under some brush and it was just like a foot or two for me. Oh shit, you know it's, you can just so, by accident, just um. Yeah, obviously I didn't have any bear spray or nothing like that, so now, yeah, I mean, that's terrifying.

Speaker 1 1:32:07

That's like the one thing, because they're huge, like they're so big and they like actually eat people and that's like, oh my God.

Speaker 2 1:32:14

Not very regularly, though. No, I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:32:16

No, but super cool. Well, david, honestly, dude, like thank you for help Help it. Like thank you for letting me help tell your story. This was such a pleasure having you on um, I hope we bump into each other at a race as well, like it's? Uh, if you could make it up to the Springs, let me know. I'd love to get out for a run with you, and it was a genuine pleasure having you on man.

Speaker 2 1:32:36

Yeah, we'll do That'd be awesome.

Speaker 1 1:32:38

Yeah, yeah All right dude have a great rest of your day. I'm going going. I want you to hop on Instagram and give David a follow. You can find him at dhedges underscore. That's d-h-e-d-g-e-s underscore. You can also type in David Hedges and you'll find him. He's got some really exciting, pretty badass imagery of some of the amazing races and some of the amazing efforts and things that he's done over the years. So yeah, david is the man, super excited and, like I said, it was an honor and privilege to have had a conversation with him. So really looking forward to his future.

Speaker 1 1:33:20

Guys, last but not least, really appreciate your support of the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review on Spotify, apple or YouTube, whatever platform you are listening on. It would mean absolute world to me so we can continue to get these episodes out into the world and continue to telling the stories of these amazing athletes in our sport. Very last but not least, guys, hop on ultimatedirectioncom. If you are looking for a belt, a pack or any type of apparel, right now, ultimate Direction has you covered. They've got some amazing new vests coming out this March that I'm so excited to announce, as well as a bunch of other cool things coming down the pipeline. Use code SteepStuffPod that's Steep S-T-E-E-P Stuff, s-t-u-f-f Pod for 25% off your cart. Thanks guys so much. Have a great weekend. Thanks for tuning in. Uh, have a good long run, have a good workout, enjoy and I'll be with you guys next week. Thanks so much. Thank you.