The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#69 Jason Hardrath
Have you ever wondered who truly holds the rights to Fastest Known Times and how influencers and athletes navigate this complex dynamic? Jason Hardrath joins us to celebrate our 100th episode and offers an insider's perspective on this debate while taking us on a journey through his recent high-altitude exploits in Papua New Guinea. With a nod to the evolving landscape of endurance sports, Jason provides updates on remarkable athletes like Chris Fisher in Patagonia and Nathan Longhurst in New Zealand, underscoring the power of storytelling in capturing the public's imagination and securing vital sponsorships.
Our conversation with Jason unveils the shifting expectations within the sports industry, where athletes must now be adept storytellers and networkers to thrive. We share personal insights on how athletes can effectively market themselves in collaboration with content creators, crafting narratives that resonate with audiences and brands alike. This episode also highlights the exciting processes involved in assembling expedition teams, akin to the thrill of putting together your own team of Avengers, and the complex team dynamics that come with it.
As we navigate the crossroads of adventure and existential musings, we ponder the potential consequences of AI and simulation theory, and their implications for humanity's future. This thought-provoking discussion explores the philosophical questions faced by ultra athletes, while contemplating the potential for an athlete-owned FKT management structure. Alongside these deep reflections, we share exciting previews of upcoming episodes featuring incredible stories from the world of mountain running. This captivating blend of adventure, personal growth, and philosophical inquiry is sure to inspire and engage listeners.
Check out ultimatedirection.com for all your hydration solutions needs! Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at Ultimate Direction
Jason Hardrath IG - https://www.instagram.com/jasonhardrath/?hl=en
Jason's Website - https://www.jasonhardrath.com/
Journey to Infinity - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzqeUuIFUcA
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and guys, I am so excited for this one. This is our 100th episode and 69th interview. So that means we've done 31 race previews and a little sub stuff, tidbits on following the sport. But I'm so excited to welcome guest Jason Hardrath onto the podcast for the 100th episode and the 69th interview. Couldn't think of a better guest for this one. Jason is an absolute giant in the sport. The guy has done so many incredible things.
Speaker 1:We had a really fun conversation, basically just caught up. I had Jason on a few episodes back to talk about some of the FKTs of the year and we caught up on what he's been up to since then. We talked about some projects for the future, including some potential infinity loops and highest points in Papua New Guinea and several other massive summits around the world. We got into the debate on influencers versus athletes, which was a fun conversation and kind of where you fell. I'm curious to see where you guys fall in that conversation. We talked about FKTs. We talked about the ownership of the FKT and who should own fastestknowntimecom. That is a hot button debate that we dove pretty deeply into. This one is less conversation about performance and more just conversation around the sport and just the influence of the sport and where it's headed and directionally. Yeah, I hope you guys enjoy this one. Like I said, this is a special one for around the sport and just the influence of the sport and where it's headed and directionally. Yeah, I hope you guys enjoy this one. Like I said, this is a special one for me and it really means a lot. So, thanks so much for tuning in, and none other than the legend himself, mr Jason Hardrath. It's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are live People Earth. Listen up.
Speaker 1:The Steep Stuff Podcast is brought to you by Ultimate Direction USA. I am so excited to be partnering with Ultimate Direction in 2025 as the official hydration solutions partner for the Steep Stuff Podcast. Lots of fun things coming down the pike for this year. Ultimate Direction is going to be unveiling a brand new race and ultra vest that's going to be dropping in the next couple of months. So excited to bring that to you guys.
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Speaker 2:Steep stuff, deep stuff tonight. Yeah, we're going to have some fun chatting. I'm excited to be back.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, I know You're a two-time champion of the podcast, man I'm, for the second time, excited to finally have you on to talk about. Well, we'll talk about FKTs, we'll talk about all kinds of stuff, but it's fun to tell your story a little bit more and get to dive a little bit deeper into what you've been up to and what's going on, what's new. So, yeah, man, excited to have you on. This has been a long, long time coming. You know who I chatted with last night your buddy, chris Fisher.
Speaker 2:Oh, no way, How's he?
Speaker 1:doing. He's good man. I think he said he's coming back from Patagonia today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a hard life he's living, huh, what a hard life Just suffering it out in Patagonia right now.
Speaker 1:That's where I was going with this man, Like what the hell? It must be really nice. Instead, it looks like you're at work or finishing up work. I just finished up a work day. The hell are we doing with our lives, dude? Right, yeah, Living room.
Speaker 2:And he's flying back from Patagonia. Yep, yeah, yeah so, no, it's awesome to see Chris doing so well. He's crushing it around the globe, him and Aaron, as we talked about the last time when I was on the show. We talked quite a bit about her and her performances. Super cool to see what they're doing. Yeah, definitely still encourage people to follow those two if they're looking for something intriguing to spend spectating their 2025 with.
Speaker 1:So true man, so true Dude. Are you doing so? I saw, Did you tell me I can't remember if I read it in a post or if you told me you're doing PR now for Aaron. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm kind of kind of doing some media and PR and making some connections, doing it for a handful of athletes Nathan Longhurst is another one over there in New Zealand. He's 87 peaks into the a hundred peaks of New Zealand now with his crazy climb and fly. So been getting him connected with um a bunch of different publications, a bunch of different writers putting this stuff out, um helping get them connected to put a film together when it's done and distribute Um yeah. So then for you know, aaron kind of doing, kind of doing some of the same stuff with, uh what she's ready for, and Chris as well.
Speaker 1:Dude, I like that. That's a really cool, unique, like I mean not that you know, not not saying you do it as a agent, but not, it's a little bit different. It's interesting, I don't know. I think it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just decided, you know, for a while I was like I was in this place where I wasn't making as big of athlete contracts, kind of after taking the step down I mentioned, I think when I was last on the pod we might have chatted a bit about long COVID and how that affected me, actually just recorded an episode with Dirtbag Diaries about long COVID and navigating the pivots and transitions. It was really fun to get to talk with Fitz, kind of a legend of the whole adventure dirtbag domain in the podcasting realm, to get to kind of chat with him about facing those setbacks, and so I was kind of like sitting and thinking through man, like what do I want to do with myself? I've like built up all of these skill sets as an athlete and communicator within the space. Like I'm connected to all of these brands, I'm connected to all these publications and these writers and I'm connected to these other athletes who are doing rad things.
Speaker 2:And I just decided, like you know what, I'm not going to worry about the money right now, I'm just going to add value. I'm going to connect cool people who are living cool stories with people who really want to write about cool stories and people doing cool things and get them published in cool magazines and put out awesome articles. I'm just like let's just do that, let's just connect the dots for people and if it turns into something awesome and if it doesn't, like at least I still got to help some stories I cared about get painted into the world a little bit bigger. So yeah, just kind of going for it and seeing what happens. Dude, I love it, man.
Speaker 1:I think it's a cool thing and it's a much needed area in the space. Like too often do I come across athletes that are like either really good storytellers but have no idea how to like project that out into the world. Like there are people that do really incredible things but suck at telling the story or getting it out there, but they're doing awesome shit that like really should be out there in the world and just being able to maybe bridge that gap or be that middleman. You know, I think it'll. There's a dense, like a definitely necessary space for that, you know, no doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if people, if people want to jump into the conversation I actually I have an even bigger conversation going on LinkedIn. Uh, I put a couple of posts out just like, hey, what athletes are out there that you know. You, if you were connected with, uh, uh, a content creator or a writer like you, feel like you could cover way more ground and put the same thing out, like, hey, content creators that are out there, if you feel like you could tell athlete stories and are interested in relationships with athletes, to tell those stories, like, get in touch. And it's been a flood it's been impossible to keep up with so far how many people have wanted to connect and are interested in doing those kind of partnerships?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so necessary. I mean, dude, like I can even speak for myself. Like, yes, the podcast arm of the pod quote unquote podcast or of the media business is like kind of the main thing. But like we all know where this is all going. Like, whether you have a podcast or whether you, it doesn't matter. Like, the way you cover something like like short form videos or long form videos, whichever way you want to do it like storytelling in a more of a video aspect from a content creation perspective, is the way these are all going. Like you see a thing Finn at single track. You see free trail, you see a lot of these larger brands and what they're specifically doing, and it all comes down to storytelling. Like, yes, the podcast is very important that's a pillar, if you will but just as much so these videos following these athletes, to tell these athletes stories, is a huge idea. So that's where I'm going, that's the plan, at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree, and I think I think right, a lot of athletes run into hangups where you know, let's say, they do have either they're good at making content themselves or they have someone they can make content with. But then the hangup is like how do you put that value into in front of a brand to actually get people paid for their efforts or get your trip funded? And I think some of some of the ways you make that have more weight for for a brand comes in like well, what are the things, what are the ways in which you've already put meaningful story out there? Getting some publications out in written form, getting some written blogs out with brands that you've worked with, even if it's in small ways. Getting some podcast episodes out there where you tell the interesting parts of your story and the why behind what you're doing. And I think it all adds up to create sort of this cohesive package around not just accomplishing the thing, but being able to communicate the accomplishment of the thing in a way that resonates with people and make makes it something people would want to be a part of.
Speaker 2:And I think, like bridging that gap of the storytelling part and having it be meaningful is is. You know, it's something where you kind of have to build this through the stepping stones, um, and a lot of people don't have that like vision and clarity for what to do, and so they just kind of go, ah, this, I don't, I'm just not even gonna bother run my next race or climb my next mountain, um. So, yeah, it's really interesting to be playing around with it and seeing what I can do. Who knows, maybe it'll, maybe it'll turn into something, or maybe it'll just be. Uh, something I do Cause I care about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love it. So one of the things maybe we can unpack this a little bit Cause one of the things I I really admire about you and even when I before you and I had even met each other and before, like when I first found out about you, I think you were on Free Trail and you had this amazing documentary for this huge pursuit that you had done One thing I really admired about you, dude, and not just your personality, which I really admire, but you're really good at marketing yourself. You're a very good marketer and I think one of the things that drives me crazy about athletes in the space is that, listen, I respect it 100%. I respect just doing your craft and staying quiet and doing your thing. If that's what you want to do, that's totally fine. But I see people that just want to do their craft and they want to get sponsored or they want to get these accolades and on the back of that, have a brand, recognize them and therefore sponsor them or sponsor a project or whatever.
Speaker 1:And it's like I think the train has or the boat the proverbial boat has kind of sailed on that a lot, where now you have to be very good at making connections, very good at being able to market yourself, very good at having those conversations, and I think too many people come into the space that expect it to happen in the opposite way. It's kind of, I don't know, it's a tricky, it's a very tricky thing. To me, it's been interesting because, dude, I know so many phenomenal friggin athletes that deserve to have these huge deals, but it's like all right, well, is it just because they don't have an Instagram Like? Or maybe they're not as great with the storytelling? I don't know, it's weird.
Speaker 2:I mean to me and I can. I can be pretty, pretty cut and dried with like athletes I mentor and people I work with. You know athletes I work with Uh, you know Chris Fisher is one that I've been super real with, um it's. You know if they're trying to go that direction of like oh you know why aren't more brands like seeing what I'm doing and like why am I not getting the deals? It's like okay, you want to go that path, go beat Walmsley.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, there you go. Go beat Remy, go beat Killian. Until you've done that, don't whine a single second for not having a big contract. Unless that's what you're doing, unless you're taking it to the absolute pinnacle, then brands just aren't that interested. Right? If you're below that, you're're lucky for what you're getting, and there are a lot of steps below that where you still have chances to just get in on pure performance alone. But, like, don't complain about it unless you're absolutely at the razor edge, if you're not trying in any other aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you know, like some of the advice I give is, you know, for me it's always been clear and easy because the thing I've always been the underdog on every team I've ever been a part of, always the one that had to fight tooth and nail just to hang on to that final point, scoring varsity spot, like thinking of, like collegiate cross country and I worked my butt off for it. And it was an honor to work my butt off for it. And I got voted most inspirational by my team because I would show up and work my butt off at workouts and sometimes, you know, there'd be athletes who would run a minute or two faster than me in a race and they would be dogging behind me. I'm like, huh, I'm here, like you be where you're supposed to be, and like I knew my like, my role and I that I saw the power in that, I helped. I helped members of my team practice more consistently and show up more consistently for the team because I was there, and so that idea of communicating in inspirational ways has always been a part of how I engaged with athletics. It's a role I've filled on a variety of teams I've been a part of even back in high school.
Speaker 2:And so the desire to communicate through sport and I'm a PE teacher, no-transcript every bit I can about everything that I do and it just so happened that, like I did enough rad big stuff in the FKT world that people wanted to hear my story, and so I got to communicate some lessons from my own story. And so my encouragement then is like, okay, if you realize that you're not the person that's going to go out and beat Walmsley, then how can you bring a story to the community with what you can do? That's of value, that's going to cause others to believe a little bit more, aim a little bit higher, be a little bit better, whether that's in their sport or in their daily life, whatever it might be. And if you can have powerful messages that connect authentically to what you're doing, suddenly there's a much more powerful reason, there's a much more powerful motivation for a brand to be associated with what you're putting into the world. Because it's like, oh yeah, our brand is about, like you know, I think, like I partnered with Viore for a summer like theirs was the rise, the shine. It was about, like you know, putting in the work and then having your moment to shine, because you've put in that work behind the scenes. And it's like, yeah, okay, I've lived that story. Like it's easy and authentic for me to partner with a brand that wants to be about, that wants to put out messaging about the rise and the shine, um, and so, yeah, if you start to put a little bit of intention into the story you're telling and how it serves others, suddenly it can open more doors.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, and, and unless you're willing to do one or the other, then I don't know. In my opinion, it's like don't complain. Don't then complain like, well, why am I not getting more contracts? Oh, yeah, I can't believe that I'm only getting these like $1,000 contracts and free gear and stuff. It's like, well, what are you actually doing? What's the extra work you're putting in? How are you hustling, what are you producing? And yeah, yeah, you know. Then, if you put in the real work and you still don't get it.
Speaker 1:Then it's like okay, now we can talk. You got an opportunity to complain. All of these it's the influencer thing, I think drives people crazy, where it's like you have to find this like very fine line of being truly authentic to who you are while also pursuing greatness in your craft. Right, at least that's the way I view it. Now people would berate me for this. Some people that I see that do it really well. I think Ali Ostrander does a great job, almost to where borderline, and Rachel Tomgiak is another one that does a phenomenal job at storytelling.
Speaker 1:Tim Tollefson is in his own way. He makes fun of himself while also just being truly authentic and sharing his story. You are a great example of it, aaron Tun. There's so many people that are really great at it, but it's not like, oh, I'm training for this or I'm training for You're running the Mill Half Marathon and this is how I do it. It's not this like influencer stuff, if you will. It's more so. You know you're competing at a very high level, but you're also, you know, making it very authentic for the average person to follow along and get inspired by your story. Right, I don't know, maybe that's controversial, but that's the way I always looked at it, because sometimes the influencer thing drives me crazy dude.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, mean uh obviously, everything I've just said is kind of speaking more to the athlete that is, yes, somewhere toward that higher cutting edge with what they're doing, whether they're doing right, whether it's the mountain athlete that's doing undone things and advancing to a cutting edge in that regard, or, you know, like the competitor that's chasing after you know golden tickets at, you know canyons or something. Um, it's like you're. You know golden tickets at, you know canyons or something. It's like you're somewhere toward this upper edge. And I feel like a quote that has always guided me well and served me well is this old Chinese proverb that says no stream rises higher than its source. And it's speaking of where are you getting your wisdom from? Where are you seeking your wisdom from? Where are you seeking your knowledge from? And that really guided me when I was younger, like who am I actually listening to advice from, and do they have a life that I would actually care to live? And if their life isn't what I want, then be very wary of the parts of their advice I accept. And then I also flipped it upside down and realized, oh, I need to become the highest possible source of wisdom and value, which means I need to chase back right, you chase past like, oh, I'm running my first half marathon. I can remember the days that I helped others with the knowledge and stoke that I had because I was running my first half marathon. I can remember the teammates that were stoked and excited and and nervous for me, as in college when I was like I'm going to transition up to the marathon this year. Guys, they're like whoa, that's so scary. I guess none of us had ever done it before and it's such a tremendous jump from any track distance that you run. And I ran at the NAIA level. So the marathon was an actual track event for nationals. I'm like actual track event for nationals. I'm like I'm gonna try to qualify guys. Um, and so right you.
Speaker 2:You, when you take those steps, it does matter to a certain portion of people around you, um, but right you, you keep advancing, at least if you're, if you're living your life how I believe you ought to. You should always be seeking that next frontier adventure. And the frontier adventure is like a journey for your own growth and your own experience, your own struggle, your own memories, your ability to look in the mirror and be proud of yourself down the road, for what you did with your life and the fears that you faced and the challenges that you undertook, the decisions you made. But then also it gives you more value to help others who are advancing further in their own frontier adventures of life, their own journey. And so right, I'm in a place with mine that I can be the one that's helping people who are taking on hundred peak projects halfway around the world from me, because I've faced my own big projects here domestically and halfway around the world, and you know.
Speaker 2:So can I really speak as clearly to those first time marathoners as I used to? No, that's kind of a ways back in the rearview mirror for me now. It's over a decade back. I don't have as much authentic value. Someone else who's new to the marathon should have the opportunity to inspire those people. So I guess in a way I don't poo poo the people that are like I'm running my first marathon and stoking a bunch of people up on it, cause it's like, oh, that's where they're at in their journey. That's the value they have to add. Um, and I'm out here helping people that are doing a hundred peak projects. So, yeah, it's just to me it's like that's that's the proper journey. It's always sort of a circle. It's always a circle back, like what? Whatever level you're at, you're always turning around and now going. Who can I help with what I just did? Who does this matter to?
Speaker 1:that, but you know, this is something I was thinking about.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, I think there is an important distinction here. It's like there is an important distinction here. It's like I always applaud someone living right To me. To me it's I mentioned that sort of circling back cycle where you make a bold decision to chase something and maybe you make your small community, your running club, your few friends, aware that you're going to run your right. So, let's say, your first 5k, even, and they're like whoa, that's so cool, right, instantly sort of raises your importance and the attention that you get and your importance and your influence. Let's say, and then you go through the training process. If you're doing it, right, you don't stop there.
Speaker 2:Some people just say stuff and then never follow through Right, because they're addicted to, like, saying they're going to do something and just getting that attention and that importance. And then they don't follow through and we all start to see those people like, okay, yeah, this guy's talking again. And then right, let's say you do follow through, you go run that 5k and everybody's proud of you and everybody congratulates you. And then someone else new comes to the group who says, well, I might want to run my first 5K and you have a chance to speak into their life and add value right, because you just did that thing. And so then what should happen? Right, if everything is working as it should, you should then yourself be looking toward your first 10K right Now. You've started the journey again for yourself, while you're simultaneously helping the person that's going for their first 5k.
Speaker 2:And I think where we start to view influencers negatively is when, clearly, they're just sitting at a spot that, like there's no real growth. They're just like milking the same sort of like easy, casual half marathon, uh, that they've done, but they're talking it up as if it's this huge dramatic thing and overselling it. And I think, right, those of us that have, like pursued the bigger things can kind of see that and be like, yeah, I can tell that that's manufactured drama, yeah to get people like look at me the authentic growth, yeah, um it's interesting, it's a tightrope man, I don't know it's.
Speaker 1:It's something. I've contemplated this for a very long time and it's funny, I very rarely talk about this in the podcast, just because, like I don't, I don't ever like to poo poo on anybody and I don't want to make anyone feel any bad of a way. Obviously, there's that you know, 0.05% of people that might be listening that are, you know, infl and maybe, hey, give me your feedback, let me know what you think, cause I'm sure there's a lot of hard work that might go into that. You know it's totally possible. Um, I don't know, it's just interesting and I think it's also dude on this. On the sponsorship level, it makes things very interesting Cause I brought this up earlier. I said, you know, not that I'm kind of all over the place with this conversation, but I brought this up earlier when I was talking about. We were talking about sponsorship and you have to view yourself in this day as a brand. You have to have A lot of people have sub stacks.
Speaker 1:That's starting to get super. Some people have podcasts, some people have a very large social media following and they're able to convey their story in a very, really genuine, organic level. But it's where the influence this is, and I think that there was a really good trail runner article that came out about this recently. That was more so about the at what point the influencer takes the opportunity away from the athlete. And there's this like push and pull and tug, and you know back and forth. You know, because each one has their own place in the space, right or, so to speak, depending on the way you, the way you look at it. So it's like this you know back and forth on who's taking opportunities away from who and how athletes view that I don't know. Obviously I'm more on the the side of the athlete because I am one and as you are, so it makes it a little awkward, but it's still. It's like. You know, it's interesting, it's an interesting place in the sport, like because you know how brands view things and how they value things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean right, I can look at it from the space of being being the kid who would run the PE mile hard, even when I showed up sick with the flu that day. Right, I think that right in a way I can relate stuff back to what does a person do in the PE mile? And it's like most human beings. You, at most PE classes all of us can think back to a PE class we had most people in every class are trying to walk every step they possibly can. If they don't get an F or get in trouble, they're trying to do as little as they can to get by. And then you have this select few that, for no reason at all, they want to run their guts out and get the fastest time they possibly can. They want to get as much as they possibly can, they want to go as far as they possibly can. And that's a much smaller percentage of the population, and that's still a percentage of the population. That adds up when you think of, okay, every graduating class of every year stacked on top of each other, of all the people who are still alive, there's those people that have that mindset. Let's say it's five per class of 30. You know, it's like that's a decent chunk of people that we're speaking to.
Speaker 2:When we get, when we talk about these messages of cutting edge and rising to the top and pushing for the next few seconds and bettering an FKT and like right, those people just naturally, from all the way back in childhood, resonate with that message. They're moved by that message of advancement, of growth, and I think some people come into that as their mind matures later in life. Caring about that portion of the population that we're just trying to get them to not completely walk and drop out of every aspect of life, um, like, show up for yourself, contribute something, believe in yourself, accomplish something that you're proud of, instead of always getting the F like do the thing that you know. That feels like you're rising above. And we're trying to invite people into this different way of thinking and different way of being that not only makes them better for themselves but them better for the people around them too, even if it's just in a small way, and, like to me, I do think that there is immense value in that.
Speaker 2:And so right, whether you're speaking to the casual participant, that's just trying to like be one of the things that happened when I was a young personal trainer. I personal trained for a couple of years before I became a teacher because I had this really cool teacher that offered the certification as part of a course she taught and I was like, cool, I'm going to do that. And one of the most meaningful ones I got to work with some cool athletes and this and that help people work on their vertical leap or sprinting. But the coolest one was an overweight dad who just wanted to be able to play with his kids. Oh, I was so motivated to work with that guy.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was like dude, dude, yes, let's get you back to where you can play with your kids and so little things like that sort of keep me calibrated in the world, because it's easy for me to get off. All of my friends are high achievers that are chasing. I mentioned Nathan, I mentioned Chris, I mentioned Aaron. There's you Just like cutting edge people just doing things that very few other human beings who've ever lived could do, and so it's easy for me to just get caught up in that and lose sight of all the rest. Caught up in that and lose sight of all the rest.
Speaker 2:But I think PE teaching and then some of these like foundational memories with other people who are just like in the struggle of regular societal life. It's like, oh, those stories matter too, and connecting on that level matters too. Yeah, Um. So I can see it. I can see it sort of like through the tears and the systems and I do see the, the struggle back and forth of like well, shouldn't the money go to like the greatest accomplishments in running and the greatest accomplishments on the track and the greatest accomplishments in the mountains? It's like I do think there should always be some amount of money for those truly cutting edge. But at some point you have to get honest with yourself and say I'm not the one beating Walmsley, I'm not the one doing a world first, I'm not the one exploring the unexplored. I'm just trying to run a race that everybody else runs and get in the top 10.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's like oh, okay, maybe that's not quite as unique as it used to be. Um, maybe there's some other story to be told that's more valuable, and maybe you can be the person that tells that story, um, but but also like you gotta weigh up against all of these sort of stories and impacts that that matter. Um, it's an interesting it's an interesting dude.
Speaker 1:Have you ever thought about being an athlete manager?
Speaker 2:you know, in a way it's sort of like at the edges of what I'm dabbling at. Uh, I, I would be psyched, I would be psyched, I think. I think I could do a really good job with an athlete manager role I really do.
Speaker 1:I just I really value the way you view, you know just the space and things like that, like you understand the way, the way, the thing, you understand who's who and you understand the way things work.
Speaker 2:It's interesting thanks man, yeah, thanks definitely uh if anybody's hiring, get that in your ear a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a sick athlete manager dude. I mean, listen, I know some athlete managers and like, yeah, I definitely think you would. You would definitely rank pretty high amongst them. So, oh man. So, dude, what else is going on these days? What's uh? Are you starting to get together some summer plans for summer vacation, like what do you got what? What do you got on the docket, as we start to push towards spring?
Speaker 2:Let's see here what do I got going on, I guess, in the right, here and now I finally released some footage from the first Ohos del Salado infinity loop attempt, so that just released on my YouTube. I have people want to go look it up and see some amazing trials and tribulations of some incredible athletes trying to go put an infinity loop on a 6,800-meter peak down in South America with only six days of acclimatization. You can go find that on my YouTube and yeah, that was kind of a part of the bigger big project, of the journey to infinity project. Um, I did pico de orizaba with nathan and took this team down and attempted ohos, the tallest in south america, um, and I might I might be pulling one of those out and dusting it off over the summer. Um, there's one over in papua new guinea, um, of the volcanic seven summits list. For those who don't know about the project, it's an attempt to put an infinity loop on each of the world's tallest volcano on each continent. And so there's one over in Papua New Guinea that I think would be really rad and super. I mean, if anybody knows anything about Papua New Guinea, it's wildly undeveloped and kind of tribal and yeah, it's not so much the mountain that's difficult there. It's going to be the experience of moving through the land and the people on the land that makes that one a wild adventure where I don't know what might happen, so I might dust that off. Don't know what, what might happen, um, so I might dust that off.
Speaker 2:I definitely I'm super psyched up on the speedmo movement, the speedmo events and and movement within the paragliding community. Um, speed, most short for speed, mountaineering. But it also has embedded in it a type of flying within paragliding called speed flying, where you fly a smaller wing much more aggressively and faster, um, and these smaller wings give you the ability to like launch and land in places in the mountains that you can't really do with a full-size paraglider, and so you can kind of use it for the purpose of moving through the terrain and on the terrain more efficiently, as opposed to most paragliders. You just kind of catch thermals and fly above the terrain. So I'm kind of psyched up on some projects, uh, domestically and and foreign potentially.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm working on a paragliding project over to the UK with athletic brewing, cause they're expanding over there and I kind of read the lay of the land right. That's something I think if you want to be a, you want to be a higher level athlete. You got to look at the lay of the land of the brands that you want to work with. What did they care about? Where did they care about growing? What are the activations they're putting out there, and go, okay, what's something I can do that works in conjunction.
Speaker 2:In conjunction to support what they're actually doing and what they care about where, where their attention is right now, instead of saying, hey, look at what I want to do, go. Hey, you know there's something I could do over there that I would. You know, I've been wanting to go to Europe and paraglide over there since I pulled a wing up, so it's like heck, yeah, I'll go to the UK for a few weeks and fly some of the most beautiful places and see some cool stuff and meet some cool people. Um, so, working on something there for the summer and might do a big, um, kind of speed mo FKT effort on some more notable things in that direction.
Speaker 1:Um, so that's, that's in the works, that's in the pipeline um, I gotta get you hooked up with my buddy, george foster. Shout out to george he's a. He's a amazing fell, fell runner, slash trail runner, slash mountain runner. Uh, that lives in the uk. He's up a bit further north. He's not quite in the scotland area, but he's, I think he's a little bit further North. He's not quite in the Scotland area, but he's, I think he's a little bit further North. Um, near the Bob grand round is where he lives. Um, but, dude, like I gotta get you guys hooked up, he'll show you some sick shit to jump off of and fly away from.
Speaker 2:Heck yeah, heck yeah. I would love any, any connections. Anybody has um in the UK and yeah, then I'll probably bounce and spend some time floating around in, uh, literally and figuratively floating around in, uh, france, and I want to bump up and fly some stuff in Norway, um so, yeah, yeah, it should be a cool trip. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got a few ideas percolating there.
Speaker 1:That'll be a six and dude I just love like I think there's so many opportunities there for like great storytelling and just like really sick films. Like I don't know, I don't want to get, you know, the carton ahead of the horse or blow anything or, you know, spray on any ideas that you might have, but like I don't know, I just find myself like, like we talked about in the other podcast that we did, like how sick that video was of like Cedar and a couple other climbers like stumbling their way up Pico de Orizaba and then paragliding off the top, and I was like that is really cool. So, like you know, I don't know, I just think there's an opportunity for content like that.
Speaker 2:I think people would find that genuinely interesting and pretty, pretty badass, you know badass, you know, yeah, I think, and I think right, the the people that are, again, you know, I think back to the those who like to run the mile hard and those who just want to walk as much as they can.
Speaker 2:I think the people that are going to do the most interesting stuff with paragliding are the people who are coming from a background of running, cause we already just love moving fast in the mountains just for the sake of itself.
Speaker 2:And then you give us a 1.5 kilogram flying setup to increase our efficiency and add to the fun we have that day. It's like cool, like I can use this tool versus the person that never wants to run a step or walk uphill at all, like they're going to want to get driven to the top of the thing and they're going to want to fly as long as they can and then just land and be done for the day. I think all of the interesting undone pioneering is going to be by people who, oh cool, the flight only went for five miles instead of 10. I'll just run the five and still continue with the project. I think that's kind of the interesting undone space within the sport and it's definitely over here, the wild, wild west as far as that goes. There's so much undone um terrain to be covered in a unique way and there's so many peaks man to do that shit off of.
Speaker 1:I don't know like there's this is, I don't know. I feel like there's unlimited ideas and unlimited inspiration to do stuff. I do want to circle back to Papua New Guinea. Like I said, I don't want to blow up your spot on that, but I am like have you done a ton of research into that volcano? I'm just so curious because every time I've heard of someone wanting to go there, which has been very limited, they've been significantly like the constraints of navigation and then the danger of the peoples that live there. Um has put significant constraints on it, which is interesting, because if you could pull off something like that, uh, you'll be one of very few, you know.
Speaker 2:I I'm lucky enough to be kind of embedded with a few people in the peak bagging community, the mountaineering community, that have done some very interesting things in the name of getting some peaks bagged. You know, potentially like illegally crossing borders to get to certain peaks, um, and make things happen. And so being tied in with people who have that kind of ingenuity and are willing to dive that deep really helps. So I have a few of those people in my hip pocket to chat with who to know. A big part of it is do you have the right people as boots on the ground when you're there in country to help you get the project done? Um, cause if you know, they know who to pay off and who to talk to and, um, who to woo and convince, uh, then yeah, you're good to go. Yeah, right, um, and so, yeah, that one is interesting. Like I said on that, it's the people. It's the people and being able to cross the land.
Speaker 1:that's the interesting part, not the technicality or those sort of difficulties yeah, yeah, I mean, dude, the last time we spoke I told you the thylacine is running around there, the tasmanian tiger, they think the extinct um, we'll get into aliens and fermi paradox and shit in a little bit, but like the uh, since we're talking about wild animals and shit like that, I uh, yeah, the the tasmanian tiger might still very well live there. For those of you who might be interested in, like, wild animal stuff, there's a old discovery show that I watch on discovery plus all the time, called extinct or alive. That is narrated by this guy, forrest galant. Dude, it, just I could my wife. It drives her crazy because I have it on all the time. She's like, like, can you turn this off? And it's basically this guy going around the globe like looking for extinct animals. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I don't know how I got off on the tangent there, um, but yeah, dude, the Papua New Guinea thing is sick. That would be. That would be amazing. I'd be, you know, very interested to follow around along that. I do want to circle around. The topic, though, of like, like paying people off finding the right guides, people to get you to these places that are very difficult, right, have you had to deal with that much in other projects in the past um, not not to the same degree that I perceive it to be.
Speaker 2:Um, for this one, I haven't been in those more tense or war-torn or corrupt places that it's like you're actually worried about, but I mean, there there's been a little bit of it where, like knowing the right people who like know where you can and can't get a vehicle to, or things like that. There's been like smaller, tamer versions of it and some things that I've done.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, that's cool, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:So I've I've dipped my toe, so to speak.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it. Have you, um, have you spoken to, like, have you uh, podcast wise done? I'm just curious to have you spoken to extent on the all host a lot of project, cause I feel like we've glossed over and talked a little bit about it, but I'm not really sure have you spoken to any podcasts about? You know in depth about it? Cause I'm very curious. I want to know, like, how that project went, like how cause it? Dude, the acclimatization period seemed bananas, like. I'm just so curious about so many aspects of that.
Speaker 2:Oh sure, let's dive into it. I may have chatted just cursory overviews on a few and I know, I think Emily, I kind of passed the mic off to Emily and uh and Hannah for some opportunities to speak about it. Uh, what's cool, is Hannah's going to get to talk to a kid's climbing group, um, and show the film and and and chat about how climbing can lead to, you know, getting to see the world, which is I love it when opportunities like that happen, um, anyways, yeah, let's, why not? Let's jump into it a little bit, um man Cause you would reach out to me.
Speaker 1:I remember I mean, I don't know if I I don't think I've ever told anybody this you would reach out to me originally when you were putting a team together and you asked me if I'd be interested and I couldn't get the time off during December to do it. And I just remember being so bummed I was like this is a lunch on a lifetime experience. What was it like putting together this team of? Uh, it's like assembling the Avengers, bro, like you had Aaron, you had Chris, like you had everybody out there, like what, what was that like? And then you know, you gotta remember these are all athletes. Athletes have different personalities, personalities. What was it like assembling the team and then like working together with people with, I don't want to say, egos, but like everybody's got their own goals of what they want to do, right. So what was it like putting together a team and then being able to get the, the groups, these people, to function as a team?
Speaker 2:bro. It basically right if you think about the, the different avengers films and how, how it played out between those big characters. Um, I mean, to some degree it was kind of like that. Um, it was, it was these big personalities and right. So I assemble this group, I reach out to these, you know, through through the channels that I have. You know, like you said, you got an invitation. You know, if you ever get a jason hardrath invitation, don't expect it to be an easy trip and don't turn it down. You'll only regret it for the rest of your life. But yeah, the ones who said yes, it was full on right, even though they were all athletes in their own right.
Speaker 2:Emily, 200-mile athlete, just did the whole 2 million feet of vert in a year thing. She's a quality ultra-endurance runner. Hannah had done a bunch of stuff in the alpine and ice climbing and a lot of experience in that domain, not so much as an ultra-runner, so definitely gaps. It was the highest elevation anybody on the team had been to, myself included. So we were all of us blowing the lid off that experience. Chris had done the winter 14ers and made his attempt on the summer 14ers and the stuff he's done. Anybody that's followed his FKT journey, but he hadn't done any high altitude. All of his stuff in the Himalaya, summiting an 8,000-meter peak, came as a springboard effect of having like thrown, gotten thrown into this trip and like having the experience he had. Um. So, you know, talk about a cool, positive outcome stuff I care about, right, you know, springboarding an already high level athlete into even higher level stuff. Um helped him connect with tyler andrews and they've gone crazy over in the Himalaya and then brought Andrew Oakerlinder along, a young kind of mentee of mine who'd like followed in my footsteps completing the Boulders in a season as just this like college student who did it in the summer. Just super cool to see him and I was like, okay, like I'm going to try to get some sponsor money to cover you to come along and get to have this uh, experience, um.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, this amalgamation of these personalities and people and experience levels and all of us following this like crazy acclimatization plan where we're all doing as much pre acclimatization whether you know that's sleeping in an altitude tent for five weeks before leaving, or people who were, you know, like Chris, living as high as he could in Colorado and summiting 14ers each day, um, until the trip went right, cause this is, this is in the winter, um, it's our winter up here so that it's summer down there. So it's like kind of a challenge. So we're all like leaning into some, some level of discomfort and difficulty to like show up as prepared as we can and right, we have this tight window. You know whether, and everybody on the team, you know I, I got some kickback, some, uh, some resistance from some people in the mountaineering community Like, oh, as the trip leader, like why would you make a decision that put your team at risk, like that? Like why didn't you just extend the trip? And me, I was kind of stuck as a school teacher, um, but also all of them kind of agreed to it because it was this intense, difficult, but also a little bit easier on the budget, right, everybody's money was tight, as athletes money is, and it's like, oh, like I only have to take off work for this smaller amount of time and be gone for this smaller amount of time for my other commitments, like I actually want that, I want to gamble, I want to run the experiment. Those are just the kind of people I drew in. Not a single one of them's like hey, could we extend for an extra month so that we can be more prepared? All of them are like sick, let's do it.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, we show up and we lean into this challenge and have basically 10 days on the ground from the time we land to also getting back to the plane to fly back to try to pull off this crazy 40-mile push where we're at the lowest point, not coming below 17,000 feet, and at the highest point, being at 22,800 feet. Yeah, just like full on. And each day different people sort of got peeled at the seams and I would be like getting peeled at the seams right Like not hardly sleeping from the altitude and like headaches, be like getting peeled at the seams right like not hardly sleeping from the altitude and like headaches, and, you know, not having an appetite and having like forced eating anyways. And then I would have to like, uh, try to mitigate sort of these either self spirals or disagreements between personalities. You know we had some people that were more conservative and concerned and some people that were more cavalier and go for it. Um, at one point two of our uh creatives that were on the trip almost got in a fight over something.
Speaker 2:Um, so there's just like a lot of like people just getting kind of boiled down by the sheer intensity of this acclimatization, like pushing a human body to adapt to altitude that fast. So like, would I do it again that way? Probably not. No, definitely lesson, definitely lesson learned, but like, what an experience. And the fact that every single person on the team stood on the summit within six days on the summit, within six days of being on the ground, was such a cool thing, even though we did not succeed at putting the infinity loop on the ground there, um, on our first try. So, yeah, just this crazy unfolding of story and crazy clashing of personalities and mindsets and approaches, and all of that still working out for the team to sort of be proud of what they accomplished and carrying it as a badge of honor and a stepping stone, a springboard into other things they've gone and done. Yeah, it was a cool trip, super intense, super intense to manage, very full on. Um definitely learned a lot of lessons as a leader and as a person.
Speaker 1:I think you were the best like team leader for this, because you're like a teacher and like you deal with kids all the time, so you must have insane patience, man. Like to be able to deal with people or just like.
Speaker 2:I don't know like.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I could deal with a lot of children, so like you must have like patience of steel then Um, I don't know, I guess a person, a person that's patient, wouldn't really know.
Speaker 2:Um, I definitely have my boundaries, I have, I have my own rough edges, for sure.
Speaker 2:But I think I think, all things considered, and I would hope you know, knock on wood, that, uh, if you interviewed every single other member of the team which I guess you could do um, they would agree that, all things considered, like, we managed pretty well and I managed the team pretty well for what we went there and faced and the problems we had to solve on the ground. Um, and people over each given day, sort of pivoting on what they were and weren't going to do, like who was actually going to attempt the infinity loop and who wasn't, and, uh, who, you know what roles people would still be willing to play or what they wouldn't be willing to do, based on how their bodies were feeling and what that meant for the team. Uh, there's a lot of like moving parts. Um, a lot of agreements had to be reached for for how to sort of continue to keep the dream alive of the project still happening. Um, yeah, it was, it was. It was really interesting to navigate.
Speaker 1:It was really interesting to navigate no-transcript within six days, or whatever is bananas dude.
Speaker 2:that's crazy yeah, yeah, it's wild, I mean. Yeah, it speaks to the drive of each person. It speaks to what each person was willing to do um, to show up, prepared with the, the modalities they were able to follow that fit with their life, and being willing to actually commit to those um, yeah, definitely, definitely a cool thing. When you think, when you think about how it's hard to get some people to like show up to work and here I have this whole crew of people that are like going above and beyond to do things that made their life really inconvenient and difficult Right, like sleeping for four or five weeks in a tent, right, that puts some tension on your home life. That puts some tension on your home life. Yeah, no, for sure, you know, it's like there's a lot of layers to this that it's like, wow, what an incredible thing to have that number of people fully bought in to like go, give something a go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, I love your expectations on people too, because I feel like I don't know, like one of the things you just said was like oh well, you know, going in, and this is just personality wise, how we're different, like you know, you said like there's some people that like don't even show up to work. I don't even think like that. I like automatically hold people. This is terrible. I hold people to like the highest of standards, because I hold myself to the highest of standards just really unhealthy, it's not good at all.
Speaker 1:But like I don't know, I feel like it's your expectations for all those athletes has to have, you know, you have to have a certain level of expectation for all those athletes, especially out there. Cause, like I don't know what happens if you were to have done the full infinity loop or on your way, and if you get to the backside, right, and that's like what happens if one or two people have to bail, and it's like and there's like you're super far from rescue, it's like what do you do at that point? Do you all just bail, or just X amount of people continue? Like how does that even work, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those were all like real-time conversations we had to have and we had to talk about, right, the opportunity cost of making an even slightly bad call, right, like the difference it would make to the rest of the team if a person chooses to just turn around and go down at the summit because they're done, versus they drop off the backside and then decide they're done as like. No, no, no, like you don't, like, no one gets that option. Yeah, if you, if you think there's even a chance you're not fully bought in it ends before you drop into the committing backside. Um and yeah, so it was like it was a lot of like, you know, right, and it was. It was that there was a lot of high expectations once it's boots on the ground, and I think that's something I'm good at.
Speaker 2:I'm good at pivoting and oscillating and being understanding on different levels and, like, bringing the right intensity and expectation to the right level. Like you know, when you're a person that does stuff in the mountains, where your decisions can kill your friends and your friends' decisions can kill you, there's not wiggle room. For I felt this or I felt that it's like no, you do or you do not. You like perform, you show up, you're mentally present, you do everything to the best of your ability, you make the very best decisions as honestly as you possibly can, um, and so I understand that like high level, high expectations, high intensity, um, but I think, right, the years of teaching allows me to be like, oh well, we're not, you don't, you're not holding my life in your hands right now, but let's talk about how I'm going to be different and how it's a different decision when we are. Let's talk about that. I'm going to let you know very clearly and concisely what it's going to be like and what my expectations are for that moment, how I want you to show up in that moment. Um, but right now it's like we're not, we're not in that, like this is chill and fine, like do what you need to do and if you right, I, I like the uh.
Speaker 2:I think I said this on the last episode too. I like the uh, mel robbins philosophy let them, yeah, right, it's like somebody wants to show up fully prepared? Cool, I will bring them along and I will trust them as a part of my big projects. If somebody wants to like half-ass stuff and not fully show up, it's like hey, I mean you can come, be there and play a supporting role, but you're not. You're not doing the effort and putting the group at risk.
Speaker 2:Like I don't mind being that guy, um, and making those calls that are uncomfortable and make people unhappy with me. Um, you know, I, I, I make kids unhappy with me on a daily basis because they want to try to do things to their classmates that is like no, no, no, no, no. I would not be a good human being if I let other human beings do that sort of stuff to to to other people, and you wouldn't like the world if I was allowed and let myself do that sort of thing to you. So think about that. All right, I'm willing to be, I'm willing to be intense with people when the time calls for it, but also I'm willing to like, be lighthearted and enjoy it and let people. Let people go wherever they care to go with their life.
Speaker 1:I love it. Dude, I want to pivot a little bit. I'm going to get away from a hostess a lot and move to um. I want to talk a little bit about FKT and the reason I asked this. I've been so curious to ask you this question and this one might take you a little by surprise and you can answer it. You don't have to answer.
Speaker 1:I'm just kind of curious, having had so many FKTs and so many high-profile FKTs. You did a lot of these during the Buzz and Peter Bachman era, right, and then FKT was sold to outside and I know we've had you and I have had, I wouldn't say, disagreements, we've had conversations, you know, around like fkt and like it's. It's placing the sport now, especially given like the backlog, like after the, in the aftermath of, like the mcclino thing, like they had to make some hard calls and make some changes. What do you do? You think it was a net positive for them to be bought by outside and be under the new leadership? I'm just so curious. I don't think I've ever asked you this and I want to hear how people have to say about it, because I don't. I'm not a big supporter of outside owning FKT. I don't like it personally.
Speaker 2:I'm going to lean in slowly to my mic and say this for those that can't see this, and say this for those that can't see this um, has anyone in any of the niches that's been bought up by outside been happy, yeah, with what has happened? I think you go go look on any threads about when they bought what was it pink bike? Or when they bought backpacker, when they bought right it's? It's kind of the same, the same story, and I realize they're trying to do their best with this like corporate conglomerate model. But, um, all in all, do I think it was the best thing for that, that niche, that um brand, that movement in our sport, to be sort of owned by a bigger corporate entity? No, I think, I think it stole and slowed down right, because they're not willing to put money into it.
Speaker 2:Um, it stole and slowed down, slowed down a lot of the momentum and changes, um, and interfaces ways. The community could have been involved, both on a social level, um, and things that could have gone, done, gotten done with how athletes got recognized, uh, per se on on routes and things, and they're starting to get a little momentum going again, but I think it actually killed a lot more of the momentum for a long time than what was going on, even when it was just Buzz and Peter, and I think it lost a little of its spirit in that time as well. And FKT used to sort of be a little bit hollowed ground, like you're going to do something big and audacious and difficult, and I don't know if a lot of the fkt's on there now um evoke that sort of a spirit.
Speaker 2:Um, it's gotten very saturated yeah, it got very saturated, and right it's that, it's that twofold thing, right it's the it's the same thing you hear people talking about from the business end of outdoors right now. It's like, oh, you know, it's like, how do you cater to both the casual participant and the high level athlete? And I think there's ways that that could have been done better in the language and the website structure and a variety of things where there could have been more involvement for the casual person to go and play at these elite routes and these, these renowned routes, um, and feel like they were involved in contributing and ticking them off and they could see their progress, um, I think there are ways to format it so there could have been more involvement. But, again, outside wasn't willing to put any money into the website to create that sort of space and an interface, um, and so the only option to get involved if you couldn't, you know, beat a higher level athlete was to do something increasingly more derivative, um, and there's still a lot of spaces where it is the wild, wild west, with fkt um, less so, seemingly, in the states now, um, and but internationally there's still a ton of places where there are absolutely beautiful routes that have never been um, truly time trialed, truly tested in a clean push.
Speaker 2:And so I think there's there's still a lot of places you can travel and do very authentic, very true to the spirit, um huge, harrowing fkt pushes, or even short, intense fkt pushes on something that's like world class um, um, but yeah, as far as the European and and North American scene, um, particularly to the U S, it seemed like stuff sort of gotten watered down and I think some of us have sensed that and a lot of people have voiced frustration and concern. Um, I know poor Alison, who runs the social media, got has been saturated with hateful. Yeah, and Allison's a great person. Yeah, she's wonderful, she's awesome.
Speaker 1:I love working with Allison Absolutely and Tate, like I've had dude after our podcast I had so many people just reach out to me and and provide like cause. We had a nice significant conversation about the Michelino situation with the grand and provide like cause. We had a nice significant conversation about the Michelino situation with the grand and then, you know, we talked about Tyler Andrews and and that whole thing on Albert and then Aaron Tom.
Speaker 1:God damn it If I I got to pronounce her one of these days I'm sorry, aaron one of these days I'll get your last name Greg ton. You think it's like the easiest thing to pronounce. Anyway, I had so many people reach out to me just to provide like from FKT, to provide commentary, and you know they were really like, really kind and very. You know they're just like, keep doing what you're doing. We're really appreciate.
Speaker 1:They were very appreciative that we were talking about it and it just it ups, it bothers me and just makes me upset because, like even jacket said it on Finn's podcast, he was like, like you know, I really thought fkt would be a bigger thing, like by now. I thought it would be much, much bigger and much more of a thing and it's and it's kind of stagnated. And the reason I bring this up is because I've been mulling over this for a while. I think it should be athlete owned and athlete ran. And I wonder because, like outside's not doing too hot, I wonder if there's a possibility, um, you know, for a group of a buyback scenario of a possibility to purchase it.
Speaker 1:I know jack, and this was just through the grapevine. I don't know jack personally. You tried to get me connected. If jack ever happens to hear this, like, hey, let's talk. There was a possibility of Jack approaching to try to get a group together to buy it. Dude, at this point in time right now, I think I could get together a group and probably go after it and buy it and see if we could get a-.
Speaker 2:I actually at one point had a private funder who was willing to pay up to a certain rather large sum of money. They wouldn't sell right. No, their number was a bit too high. We knew it was a bit. It was significantly higher than what they bought it for and they hadn't put any value into it. So we weren't willing to like just sort of hand away that for nothing.
Speaker 1:Well, not to go after them and not to like, make us think about it. But, like, my thing is like and this is my background in corporate finance there's no money being made. Really there's not. Where's your cash flow generation If they really want to sell something for such a high amount? Is it just the trademark name that they want so much money for? I'm just so curious. So I'd love and I'd invite if Alice, not Alice, I'm sorry If who's the outside guy, I can't remember his name. We're friends on LinkedIn. If I'll call him out. If he ever hears this and wants to have a conversation, I'd love to get a group together to have that conversation to just to see if anybody would be willing to sell it and we could make it athlete owned and I even presented an idea, but they just didn't have the bandwidth to even consider.
Speaker 2:It is what if? What if, uh, there was a separate entity, um, sort of like the uh, what is it? The trail runner association, or I forget the exact acronym, but like ptra, yeah, yeah, so a separate, like fkt association that, like this, is the ratification of the record and the management of the rules and the policies and all that. That's athlete-ran that has a, not a council. Gosh, my brain is farting after a long day of teaching Board of directors, more or less so it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like people who are involved in the sport and invested and they're speaking into the direction of the sport and the growth of the sport and um, sort of shaping decision making. And then, yeah, like the, a corporate entity like outside, could own the marketing aspect of the storytelling. Yeah, from from fkt, so like we wouldn't have to buy the whole thing, right, if they still wanted that, that piece of the pie where it's like, well, we get to, we get to tell the stories or we get to have first dibs on, you know, the, the stories coming out of this and the brand association coming out of this. But okay, you guys run your own thing and we don't have any control over decisions that don't do or don't get made on the website or fkt policies or this or that. It's not our employees making those decisions.
Speaker 1:You just gave me a brilliant idea on that. I don't know the corporate structure, if it's S Corp, c Corp or LLC. I mean, I did do some digging a while back. From what I understand, it's an LLC. But with that said before I go, I don't want to go too deep into this.
Speaker 1:But if they were to make it what I think would be the optimal structure, just because the business itself from a monetary perspective should not, I think it should be built in a way where it's a non-profit, where it's a 501c3. And whatever money is given to it, however they raise funds, they can use that to invest back into the volunteers that are giving their hard-earned time, maybe the one or two employees that they have, and then the rest of it should go to support up-and-coming FKT athletes and then existing FKT athletes for projects and stuff like that, which I think would be awesome, and then have it managed by a board of directors and just like dude. Same thing. I'm on the board for the Pikes Peak Marathon and no employees of the Pikes Peak Marathon are on that board of directors. It's a board of independent people that manage a 501c3. It's basically managing a 501c3, which is a nonprofit. So it'd be interesting to see it managed in that way, just because the finance brain in me does not understand how they make any money.
Speaker 1:I don't get it. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me. There's no tangible cash flow there from of true value for them to want such a high number for just the fastest known time website. I don't get that. So, yeah, I don't know. I would challenge them to maybe consider reorganizing that structure and making it just a nonprofit and then having it managed by a group of someone like you chris fisher, you know, aaron like people that really like in jack, people that like really fucking care and like want to see this thing grow and want to do right by it like that's what it should be. Who should be the people managing it?
Speaker 2:and those are going to be the kind of people that can rally right if improvements, improvements to be made on the website or things like that that improve interface. You know, I thought you know there should be some, some user interface aspects of mountain project that allow you to tick off um routes that you've done and rate routes, give it a star system and all right. Then we sort of have this like natural user generated um ranking of routes so that you could see what the quality routes in a given area are, uh, based on the people who've done them and the people that live there, and have it be visually apparent on the website. Um, you know, it'd go above and beyond simply listing some premier routes. Yeah, um, you know some things like that. Right, then you could be like rally, rally the troops, so to speak, where it's like, oh, yeah, no, I know I know Josh or I know Jack or I know James, like I'll, I'll, I'll put in some programming time to improve this thing.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, you know, just kind of group source what needs to be done, instead of it being like, okay, let's run this up the corporate ladder to see if they'll sign off on a hundred thousand dollar change. Um right, some of that stuff could actually happen just on sheer connections and personality. If it wasn't, if everybody didn't feel like, oh, I'd be giving away my time to a corporate entity to improve their profits, Right.
Speaker 1:Right and like nobody loves outside right now. I I mean that's just the way it is. I mean like I don't know, I've heard so, I've seen so much, and not to shit on them, but I've just seen so much negative stuff recently with layoffs and just really poor mismanagement from a managerial perspective and that, whatever that's, that's their ball game. However they want to play that, that's fine. Listen that once.
Speaker 1:Once you create a conglomerate or however you want to call it, a private equity system to where they hold all these companies, it is very difficult to manage something like that. I had firsthand knowledge and I totally understand it. But that said, something like FKT, because I truly view FKT as one of, if not the soul of the sport I've heard it described many times like that and I truly agree with that. I get wonky with it owned by a corporation that, at the end of the day, is searching for profitability and we all know how that goes.
Speaker 1:Whereas and I do want to give some credit to my good buddy, brad Barrett, arcteryx athlete, one of my training partners and one of my best friends. He was the one who said to me originally he's like man, that's a really good idea, but he's like why don't you? Just it should be designed in a way where you're able to give back to athletes, where you're able to help support in some ways, support athletes that are going after these big things. Let's say, someone wants to go try and take a crack at Terradower's ATFKT Good luck with that, but here's some support to be able to do that. Things like that where you're able to sponsor and bring up a new group of people to get them excited about it. So whether there is an alternative pathway to the to the racing scene, if you will, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I totally agree, and those are ideas that, again, you're, you're, you're, you're not presenting anything new to me. Um, these are all ideas that I tried to work on, and I talked with a private sponsor about who was interested in this whole thing. Um, oh, yeah, if we were a non-profit, like, we could also have this aspect where we were, because he's interested in doing he's he's one of the sponsors that's supporting nathan with his huge project down in new zealand right now. Um, and it's like we could do more of this stuff where, when an athlete is willing to take on an incredible story, not only do we sort of support them so financially they can do it, but also, like, help build out the story around them in a way that they don't know how to themselves, so that the inspiring story does get told in a big way. Yeah, um, and we could have this whole thing, but nobody's willing to do that kind of work again if it's just helping out a corporate profit margin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do, I've even thought about approaching d, approaching Dylan and Finn, to see if we could pull together, just like, make it owned by the podcasts, you know, and spread it out. I've had so many ideas for what the hell to do with this thing but like it just drives me crazy and I think I definitely think a leader, some sort of change is needed to give it that spark for the future, you know, and to have more people. Because, like dude, it was really disheartening to hear Jack say, oh man, I really thought it would be bigger and better and I was like, oh man, and he's like one of the poster children athletes for FKT. Like half the reason people know about FKT is because of you and because of him. You know it's kind of crazy. And now Tara Dower, all these people, but of him, you know it's it's kind of crazy. And now terry dower, all these people, but like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's some opportunity for change in the future and if anyone listen, I know tate listens to this, so it'll get back to him, but I'll, I hope, others in the fkt organization and I hope, right, I hope the people hope it's positive, and I, yeah, I never want, I never want the people who are the actual workers, the volunteers and like allison, to ever feel and I've had this conversation with allison before when I've chatted in similar ways about fkt in the past and like had, uh, you know, presented some of these thoughts to her about like hey, what about buying this idea of buying fkt back and making an fkt association that's non-profit?
Speaker 2:And da, da, da, da. And I've like had to communicate with her. It's like in no way am I saying this, is you doing a bad job? But there's this whole structure around you that's disabling certain decisions from being made and like disempowering you as a great leader in the roles you're, you're fulfilling, and sort of disempowering the community from really shaping this and growing this and having this be a bigger thing, right, um, so I hope nobody who's a volunteer takes any of this as a jab at them, or Allison or any of them, because that's not the direction we're coming at this.
Speaker 2:It's more how this feels like it ought to fit into the space and it, being a part of a corporate conglomerate, doesn't feel the right way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly. Andison's an amazing human like tate. So many people I've interacted with in the organization are incredible people and they just want the best for it, you know. But, like you said, it's it's the governance structure for sure, like um, yeah, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2:Man, maybe this yeah, these are the conversations we could be having, maybe, maybe this drum stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean, listen, if you want to, if you want real change, you got to break some eggs. So this might be one of the ways. Yeah, you do it because I've dude, I've been in, I've talked to so many people but in so many people's dms about this, so it would be cool to see some change. All right, I've got a because I'm getting narrow on time here. I gotta pivot. Um, let's talk. Aliens, the fermi paradox, all these things.
Speaker 2:I need to get your yeah, yeah, yeah, right, because which episode is this gonna be for you? This is gonna be 69 baby 69, flipping it around and getting weird, getting getting freaky. On episode 69.
Speaker 1:It was between you and tom hooper. Tom hooper had reached out before it and he's like, let me be episode 69.
Speaker 2:So I'm sorry, tom jason hard sorry, tom beat you to the draw. You'll have to get episode 420, that's right. Um, so, yeah, yeah, I guess these are like existential considerations for the uh, for the ultra athlete or for the mountaineer, right like stuff to stuff that runs through your head when you're in the middle of nowhere. Um, yeah, the the fermi paradox. How did we get on this when we were chatting?
Speaker 1:did I talk, I might have asked you about aliens. I'm not really sure I'm. I don't know. Usually my closing questions I'll ask about aliens.
Speaker 2:I don't think I did with you I think I, I think it might have been a little darker than that. I feel like maybe you and I were chatting um, not on the mic, about um. We were chatting back and forth about just like humanity and the state of the U S and the state of like the world, and and shit was dark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a little dark and it was like it finally came down and it was like oh, no, no, no, like I'm I'm pretty clear on my my resolutions on the Fermi paradox. It's like you, you look at humanity and the Fermi paradox. For those who haven't considered it or are Googling it right now, it's this question of if, mathematically, there's just this I'll go ahead and use the word astronomical probability that other life should exist and have come into existence over the time that the universe has has existed. Then why haven't we made contact? And, you know, why haven't we been visit? Why don't we see any signs and sort of the?
Speaker 2:The overwhelming consideration there is is it that every life form that rises to a level of intelligence to be capable of say what we are currently doing, the level of development in societies and technology that we're currently at always has the dispositions, because of what allowed them to survive in a much less resource, abundant world and technology, abundant world? Do they have the same drives and urges inside them that cause them to kill each other off with that great technology before they ever reach so, uh, intergalactic or interplanetary travel? And it's like you look down the barrel of the gun and it's like is humanity actually gonna make it? And even even as, like a college freshman I was sitting there going, I don't think so. I don't think humanity is one of them. That pulls it off. All those you know space sci-fis about us, you know colonizing planets in, in other galaxies, I don't know, it doesn't kind of seem like it right now are you familiar?
Speaker 1:are you familiar with, like the great filters? So the great filter being like, all right, a, a population, let's say us will reach a a certain point, right, and then something sorry, my dog's squeaking into it, um, it'll, a population will reach a certain level. I think, for us, our great filter will probably be AI. In my opinion I could be totally wrong on this, but it will reach a certain level where it'll either go one of two ways It'll either be beneficial or it'll completely destroy us. And I just think us, we are not ready for what's coming, dude, in my, in my opinion, I think it will be the great filter. Will it destroy us? I hope not. That would suck, you know, that wouldn't be so fun.
Speaker 1:I think humanity is a beautiful thing. I'm very pro-human, um, but I, I think I've just met so many people that, yes, are far more intelligent than I'll ever be, but it just seems so arrogant with AI, like where, oh, this has to be the greatest thing ever, and it will be. Don't be so speciest fire here, right? I don't think people understand, and not that I actually do, but I have several friends that are very high-end machine learning software engineers and they do quite a lot of stuff with machine learning, and I just think people fail to understand just how powerful AI is going to be when it doesn't get unleashed on humanity. And when I say powerful, I mean let's say they ban TikTok, right? I think that happened already.
Speaker 1:Well, if AI was to be rolled out in the way that it probably will in the next five years, you could just go on your phone and just create TikTok. You just ask AI, you just ask ChatGPT to make you one, right? That power is so powerful that you start to imagine the things that you can do with it. Right, you can for good and for bad. And it's like I don't think us as people like dude, we could barely, like, figure out an election, we could barely figure out whatever you know, but you know. And then, like you have this level of power, like we can't even deal with instagram. What the hell he makes you think is gonna happen when we have this. So I'm not too excited for when that comes around in five years. And it's different for you because you're a teacher of children. Man, like kids now probably what all have cell phones like. It's not like when we were kids, it's completely different ball game, whether better or for worse, you know, makes you think I don't know, it's no, it's.
Speaker 2:that's an interesting right, this sort of uh, you're getting at the edges of, like AI and post-humanism, like considerations of so what happens when AI surpasses us? And you're of the firm conclusion and I agree with you AI will surpass us within the near future, us more likely, within a five-year window, and then it gets really interesting, because then it's like all right if intelligence can exist out outside of consciousness, if that intelligence is much greater than anything we could ever do. If we're now just right, in essence, uh, depending on how much it surpasses us, by whether it's a single order of magnitude or hundreds of orders of magnitude, we're essentially like little ants in comparison of what we're able, the computations we're capable of producing. And it can invent every great thing. Every human, the greatest humans who ever existed, ever would have invented in the snap of fingers, ever would have invented in the snap of fingers. It can produce those ideas faster and better and execute on them better than any human being.
Speaker 2:So, even the best of us, right? We as athletes like to think about the elite edge, right, we find ourselves inspired by great creators as well, usually Great inventors as well, because it's like, oh yeah, that's greatness. I can see greatness, great, sees great. But what if all of those are irrelevant, like, even the best of us is absolutely irrelevant in what we're capable of producing. What's the point of being, yeah, what is, what is the value we can add? And right, then I also think of this interesting spiral, you know, since we're on existential considerations, um, right, if, if so many humans are so willing to have handed away their attention and free choice to the addictions of video games, and and and social media you know, instagram, whatever then when we're able to have entire worlds that can be spoken into existence? Right, you just described speaking a new TikTok into existence. That's not the limitation. You could speak an entire new virtual reality into existence where you have roles and importance and connection, and it can be so full-on and connected. Right, you think about interfaces.
Speaker 1:There's. What is that?
Speaker 2:Mind link, whatever it's it. Oh, you're working on neural link, right? So if you're able to, like, create a world that's so real that it triggers and is addictive to the you know, the dopamine and the serotonin and the oxytocin, like we are able to trigger all of those things in a world you can create meaning and purpose in a role. It's not that we're going to be subdued forcefully through war into the matrix. It's that we're going to willingly create our own matrix and walk right into it because there's nothing else we'd rather do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, dude, that leads us straight to simulation theory. Man, like I don't know, I've heard this thrown around a bunch. I actually just talked about this with a good buddy of mine recently, like about being in a simulation and like I've seen a lot of people be like talk about the probability that's very high that we're already in one and then we're just going to create, like we'll just create one, and then like it's like, think about it, like it's like that rick and morty episode where it's a simulation with the simulation, with the simulation it's kind of bananas um, I don't know, dude, like I, it's like, and then it's the.
Speaker 1:So we have so many conflicting things right now. So, like google gemini just came out with their new um, their chip computing Right, and they talked about, like how we would have never been able to do this calculation unless it was like literally pulling from alternate universes and I know I botched that a little bit with that, with that where it's pulling data from, but like, basically to do the calculation it's pulling from other computers and other universes, meaning that's proving that we're in a multiverse. So like, are we in a multiverse that's in a simulation or are we just in a multiverse? Like, what the fuck? Like now we've gone three levels deeper. Like what does that look like? I don't know, we're all over the place with this.
Speaker 1:But one thing I do want to get back to you with ai before I jump back into the multiverse theory is um, I think that the part that just upsets me so much is like humans are so, like humanity is such a beautiful thing and like we're so full of creativity and all these great things. And I see, like now on Instagram, you see, like all this, like AI generated shit, and it's like all right, what is that going to do for creators? But even more so, dude, like I had a good conversation with someone recently about oh well, it'll be like the printing press and it'll get'll get rid of jobs, but people will find other jobs in ai, and I just find that to be so like not. It's. This is like not the case. And I think about this from an economic perspective like I don't think people actually understand that like, once ai does become a thing like you're going to have, not just like trillion dollar corporations, but like multi trillion dollar corporations with multiple trillionaires. And then make this one step further. It's a very bad thing for the economy in the sense where the wealth will be truly segregated into different sections where people like me and you, like normal people, you will never be able to get above and beyond because the economy doesn't need us. The economy will just be focused on AI. So it'll be the first economy in the world where it will just not need people for production.
Speaker 1:So it's like where's that utility? That's just from a macroeconomic perspective. So it's like what does that do to GDP? This takes things really to another level. So it's like, no, this is not just going to be like the printing press. It's basically going to be the CEO and the computer and it's like well, what does that do to us? And that's why I get concerned, because from an economic perspective, I know how corporations work. It's like let's just continue to push, push, push, push, push every year to make 10%, 15%, 20%, more, however much we can, until we fall off a cliff right, or until we have a down decline and then we lay off all our people and do the same thing over again. So, yeah, I don't know. I think the way I see it is very negatively.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I would show a video each year to my health class back in 2012, 2013, 2014, when I still taught high, high school, and it was just this video that presented the idea of a virtual socrates, and it was the idea of an ai system that was so much better at teaching that you know it made it could out out teach any human mentor, teacher, great figure, billionaire that ever lived. And so then it then went on to talk about the thing, the advancements that would happen and and how eventually it would it led to this place that you're describing, of humans are obsolete and irrelevant. And right, that's a part of the consideration of this post-humanism existential crisis. Like, what is the point of being if we're irrelevant to, irrelevant even to the necessity of our own existence? Right, we're, we're just able to live on the subsistence of what AI creates. And that forces us to wrestle, then, with what is the value. And I think this fits in with, like, the simulation hypothesis, the simulation theory of does it make our choices meaningless or does it make them more precious?
Speaker 2:How do you navigate that idea, whether it is this post-humanism idea or the idea of like what if it's all a simulation? And I mean, I've even heard the simulation thing like zoomed out, like if you look at sort of like consciousness, and if you were to say that consciousness is trying to run all of the probabilities that can exist in the universe and one of those probabilities is consciousness existing inside this conglomeration of atoms, having this conversation with your conglomeration of atoms, having this conversation with your conglomeration of atoms, but it's the energy and the flow and the consciousness of the universe, like playing out all these possible variations, and we just happen to be one of those variations, um, and we kind of get ourselves out of being the center of our own reality, so to speak. We bump ourselves out and it's like, oh, this just flowing and happening and and you know, ai is just like one of those other flowings of intelligence and consciousness that we made. Yeah, we played a role in bringing it to be um, but now it goes on.
Speaker 2:And how do we then wrestle with our existence continuing as we're faced with this much bigger world around us, and I think, right, that's always been around us in some ways, um, but we're able to ignore it and be like, no, we're the most important thing, making all these breakthroughs and because of that I have value. Because I'm doing these exceptional things, I deserve x amount of extra that other people don't have. How do we navigate a world where people still have hungers and dreams and needs where they can't actually create any necessary relevant value? There's no breakthrough they can create anymore that hasn't already been surpassed by a higher intelligence, and we're like face to face with that higher intelligence, so we don't get to pretend it's not real. How do we then have a sense of value? How do we place that and navigate that? I think that's something we're going to be forced and and all of that um in the face of things that make it seem meaningless like we're very much achieving people right, like we want to.
Speaker 1:And this is like I mean. Most people like, want to. They don't want to, just like they. It's like the carrot on the stick right. It's like you. You want to achieve in some way shape or form. You want to be fulfilled it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:And you want that carrot to represent right kind of something you did to get the carrot right, right, you want. You want, like those of us wired this way, we like want it to have meant right. We, we thrive on exceptionalism, we thrive on merit, like, we want there to be merit behind right. That's why, like, high level athletes take issue when a seemingly lower level athlete who's an influencer gets a bigger paycheck than them because they're like but I run faster, I'm more exceptional this is true, they're slower than me um, and so we want, like, we want pay to be evenly matched to merit. And you know, you could argue that well, the creator's adding a whole something that that athlete's ignoring, and so that's actually what they're getting paid extra for is that they put all this work in a place that the athlete ignored.
Speaker 2:But that's still another form of merit, like, oh well, this person. Well, now you can't produce videos to keep up with the AI, so now your merit is lost too right, there's nothing you can do that's of any merit. Comparatively merit is lost too right, there's nothing you can do that's of any merit comparatively. Um, and it's really interesting for people like us to navigate where you know, essentially we're beaten at every game. There's nothing we can actually do, that a an ai can't just do better a thousand times over, in a thousand different places, in a split second, right um and really quick.
Speaker 1:I do want to. I do want to stop for one thing. So, like, all those listening that like are losing their minds right now because like, oh, the medical breakthroughs it'll provide Sure, 100%, I think AI is super productive up until a certain point. And, like, when I say that, like, we can use it to for open heart surgeries, to diagnose cancers, to do all these amazing things you know, vaccines, you name it. There's all different amazing things you can do with it, but, that said, it's productive to a point.
Speaker 2:Well, you run into the problem of universe 25, right? So let's say, oh, it's great, it's alleviating suffering, it's saving more lives. It's like, okay, that's now more lives that have to wrestle with this existence of. What is my meaning, what is my purpose? And universe 25 is this experiment that they ran with rats, and rats do have a uh, hierarchical, role-based society that they live in, and so they built this carrying capacity within this habitat. Um, that was quite large. But the problem they continually ran into in the experiment was that the social roles ran out before the carrying capacity was full, and so these seemingly I guess you could say ostracized, purposeless, role-less, listless rats would then do things to sabotage and bring down the society, not that this sounds like anything we've heard before in our own society. So the issue we're faced with and maybe this is one of the answers for how we can reframe the thinking around human value human to human value, within this sort of emerging frontier is what really seems to matter most.
Speaker 2:To keep society functioning is for people to have meaningful roles, to step into where what they do matters. It has influence, it has importance to some number of people around them. They carry a burden for a certain people. They show up for a certain people. Those certain people show up for them and they care about it. There's some community, but within that community not just being in the community and sitting there, but having a role within that community where oh, it matters that I do this People look up to me for this. That's one of the most important things. And right now, we attach all of that to incomes, right, our employers or if we're, you know, self-employed, like we hold our own value tied to whatever makes us money oftentimes Like. This is what my role is, and I always argue to people that I noticed that those two are interlaced with each other. It's like no, no, no. My role and purpose is to speak aha moments and breakthroughs to people, and I just so happen to do that in schools most frequently to pay my bills, but I can do it anywhere. And as long as I'm creating aha moments and breakthroughs for the people who are around me and willing to listen, and it's helping them move forward and see their reality more clearly and navigate their life with more purpose, then I'm living lined up with my role.
Speaker 2:I'm adding my value. I see that and that's what matters and making sure. I think it's really important, especially with what's coming to unmarry, how you see your personal value and role in the world from what's making you money, because I think pretty soon those are gonna get forcefully unmarried for all of us, oh for sure. And it's gonna be like, oh, you really need to know who you're adding value to and what that value is and why you care about that, aside from what does or doesn't make you money. And you need to be able to see that clearly and that to be able to be powerful enough in your own mental model of reality to be something you're able to guide your life decisions with. And yeah, I mean it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I've been wrestling with this stuff and you know, a lot of times you know people could spiral off the deep end and get into some really dark thoughts. And then you know people look at that happy, go lucky, like encourager, stoker, psych builder, go for your dreams. It's like, oh, how's this guy simultaneously holding thoughts like this, of like, yeah, humanity's not a species? That probably makes it, and and like all of these considerations of our irrelevance in the face of these bigger things. And I think, right, you get this a bit from the mountains like sense of place, your own sort of insignificance, but also the significance within just being in the moments you're in. And I think I've also been overwhelmed with sort of the essence of the spirits of things, right, the spirit of exploration, the spirit of competition, and how powerful these guiding forces and this is as close to a spirituality as I, as I think I get to really is this idea that there are these spirits of things, good or bad, right, you could get guided, you could get grabbed and pulled into the spirit of hatred and the spirit of revenge and become animated and that's the thing that all your energy and attentions. But you can also get animated and pulled into these positive, beautiful things that put you in an upward spiral instead of a downward spiral.
Speaker 2:And right, I think that is one of our roles as human beings is to sort of rescue wisdom from the past and to be aware of what we're, the spirit we're indwelled by, what's grabbed us, what has us, what gives us motivation for living. You know, we we were both having this conversation because we love steep stuff, we love getting out in the mountains and ripping hard. That gives us a sense of value and purpose. Well, we ought to be doing things that invite others into that journey, that invite others into that upward spiral, that inspire others to partake of the things. And you know, it won't be everybody, maybe it's just the other PE milers that like running hard. But that's somebody that needs to talk to because those people can spiral hard right. If they don't have that thing to or don't feel it's important for them to direct their attention and start to self-soothe with alcohol or other drugs because they can't find meaning. It's like, hey, I could see that in myself If I wasn't doing these things, if I wasn't chasing these big dreams and growing and looking at frontier adventure as a big part of my life.
Speaker 2:And I think that's how we sit up against the inevitable heat. Death of the universe bring another existential crisis into it. If everything is going to end, even AI, all of it is just going to cease to exist, and this is one of the beautiful things to confront. So, no matter what we do, even if you make the most positive ripples that echo on through all of humanity for the rest of time, somehow you live this beautiful, value-driven life and it echoes for all of time, even that life and light gets extinguished echoes for all the time, even that life and light gets extinguished. And so how, then, do you wrestle with your inner world to arrive at a place that it's still worth doing what you're aimed at and still worth making the impact you have, even in the light of it not mattering in eternity?
Speaker 2:And I think it comes down to and I think this is kind of embedded in some wisdoms of of eastern philosophy, and embedded even if you look at um western religions a bit and you read it in the right way we either make heaven on earth here or we make hell on earth here, and that happens with the decisions we make, and we can see how it affects the people around us, whether the people around us are happy and inspired and living dreams and making awesome things happen and having high senses of well-being, or are they spiraling into disorder and dysfunction and anguish and pain and suffering. Are they able to handle the tragedies life throws at them with higher values of courage and honor and to be able to seek solitude and to be consoled in a group of friends, like all of these rich human experiences that can be positive or the terrible ones. And what is it we're inviting people into? And it's like in the here and now we can find value in the roles we have with the people around us and I think, in a way, that's how I I navigate all of this like big picture back down to the small picture, back down to the life I'm living.
Speaker 2:Like why does it matter? Why am I still showing up and having these conversations? Why do I still go on my frontier adventures, even though I'm not the fast guy and I've lost a beat or two because long COVID hit me hard? Why am I chasing inspiring people into new sports? Like why does this? Why doesn't this guy just quit? Why doesn't he shut up? Well, you know, if I can put a few more people before the end of my time on an upward spiral where they live a rich and inspired life, it's all worth it.
Speaker 1:Dude, I love it. That's beautiful. I think this is a good place to stop. Dude, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is a beautiful conversation. We got to have many more. Um, I think we need to do a part two or a part three. We can keep this going. I can talk to you for hours. Um, thank you so much for coming on and, uh, let's do this again yeah, let's talk again, james, good chatting dude.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode this one was. Uh, this one was a well contested episode. I feel like, uh, there's going to be some strong opinions one way or another, based on what we talked about for influencers versus athletes, as well as our thoughts on fkt although I will say for the fkt conversation, I feel like everybody can agree. Um, potentially fastestown Time might do a heck of a lot better if it was under different ownership and potentially a nonprofit. I don't know. You guys write to me, let me know what you think and if anyone's interested in continuing that conversation, I'd be happy to have you on the podcast to continue the conversation and keep things moving along there.
Speaker 1:Guys, before you get going, I just really want to thank Jason so much for coming on. Let's get on Instagram, if you don't already follow Jason, and give him a follow. That's going to be at Jason Hardrath. You can find him on Instagram. It's going to be linked in the show notes. In addition, there is going to be a video that I'm going to be linked to in YouTube for Jason's latest project down in Chile for the Ojos de Salada, which I just probably butchered that terminology and pronunciation for the volcano that they did. That was super high and yeah, super cool Guys.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoy this one. Before you get going, do me a favor. If you're interested in a pack, or if you need a new belt, new water bottle, flask, you name it Ultimate Direction's got you covered. If you guys hop on over to ultimatedirectioncom and type in code steepstuffpod, that's going to get you 25% off your cart. Very, very last but not least, if you guys enjoyed this episode, it would mean the absolute world to me if you guys could give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify or YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. That's how we can continue to cover this great sport and have these amazing conversations and highlight the profiles of these amazing athletes.
Speaker 1:Guys, I have a locked and loaded week coming for you. We have another episode dropping with none other than Mr Francesco Sonseri that's right, the brother of Michelino has come on the podcast and that's going to be dropping this week, In addition to the Alaskan badass, Miss Denali Strabel, the third place finisher at the RUT20AK in 2024, an Alaskan mountain runner who's finished on the podium numerous times at Mount Marathon. Denali is a breath of fresh air. An amazing conversation I had with her and I'm so excited for that one to drop on Friday. So we've got a jam-packed week of podcasts for you guys. Stay tuned. I hope you enjoy it and buckle up, Thank you.
