The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#80 - Remi Leroux
What does it take to transform from a competitive tennis player into one of trail running's most exciting uphill specialists? Remy Leroux shares his remarkable journey with refreshing candor and scientific precision in this wide-ranging conversation about the evolution of mountain running.
Fresh off his impressive third-place finish at the Big Alta 50K against elite competition, Remy opens up about finding running after his tennis career ended at age 19. Without the traditional track background of many elites, he's carved out a unique path to success through methodical training and race analysis. His approach to the sport combines meticulous preparation with genuine passion – monitoring heart rate variability before races to determine his caffeine intake and music selection, while remaining childlike in his enthusiasm for exploring endless dirt roads during Quebec's harsh winters.
Remy's recent signing with Brooks reflects the growing investment in sub-ultra mountain running, joining a stacked roster of specialists in a discipline that's gaining momentum in North America. He offers fascinating insights into the differences between European and American race cultures, revealing why standardized courses and distinct race categorizations might help sub-ultra racing gain the popularity it enjoys overseas.
What makes Remy particularly compelling is his specialized uphill ability – twice defeating mountain running legend David Sinclair – combined with his analytical approach to improvement. He breaks down his race strategy for iconic events like Broken Arrow and Sierra-Zinal with the precision of someone who studies every aspect of his craft while maintaining genuine joy in the process.
Ready to discover what separates ultra from sub-ultra racing psychology and why the latter might provide more thrilling competition? Listen now and follow Remy's journey as he prepares to represent Canada at the World Mountain Running Championships and take on the Golden Trail Series against the world's best.
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This episode is proudly supported by Ultimate Direction. Head over to UltimateDirection.com to check out UD's new Race Vest 6L & Ultra Vest 12L packs that just dropped last week ! Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off !
What's up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lariello, and I'm so excited to bring you guys an episode today with none other than Mr Remy LaRue. You guys might recognize that name because Remy just took third place on the podium of the Big Alta 50K this past Saturday against the likes of Eli Hemming and some of the biggest names in the sport. Crazy kind of sub-ultra slash, ultra early season race that took place this past weekend, the big Alta. I can't believe how competitive it absolutely was. That 50k men's field was insane. Guys, I'm so excited to have had Remy on.
Speaker 1:We talked about all kinds of things, including his upcoming season where he's getting ready and gearing up for soon a piece scramble, as well as the broken arrow ascent and vertical kilometer. Remy has a whole slew of crazy accomplishments under his name Second place last year for both for the up down and the vertical at the Canadian National Championship, which pretty much qualifies him to go compete at Worlds this upcoming year. He's also taking top 10 finishes, both the Broken Arrow and the 23K, as well as the Golden Trail Series race, the Mammoth Trail Fest last year. Really interesting guy. I love his training methodology. I just love how dialed he is like as far as like getting ready for these races, as well as just you know his training and the way he approaches the sport. Also, he's got really cool background. Coming from tennis. He was a very competitive tennis player and just like, has this meteoric rise to be one of the most talented upcoming athletes in the sport. And did I mention he just signed a professional contract with Brooks so excited to see him on that team, as Brooks has really been investing heavily in SubUltra.
Speaker 1:So, without further ado, I'll stop rambling and let you guys listen to this episode. It's a personal favorite of mine. Can't wait to share a start line with Remy soon and get to talk to him more. Hope you guys enjoy this one. It's time. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live People, earth. Listen up.
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Speaker 1:Right now, use code steep stuff pod for 25% off your cart. Again, like I said, use code steep stuff pod. Treat yourself to one of these. I think you guys are going to love them. I'd love to hear your feedback. Let me know what you think. Enjoy, remy LaRue. Welcome to the steep stuff podcast. How are you, man? I'm doing great. How are you, dude? I'm awesome. I'm so excited to finally sit down and have a chat with you. I've been a big fan of yours for a couple of years now. So, um, you know we cover the sub ultra scene. You're very much in the sub ultra scene, so this is a match made in heaven to finally have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, thanks for having me on. You know I've listened to a lot of your podcasts. I remember the one with Joe specifically, which I really enjoyed. I mean, Joe is a big inspiration for me and I've had the opportunity of racing him a couple of times and, yeah, hearing him on the podcast with you was pretty great.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man, I appreciate that. Yeah, he's the Joe's, the goat man. It's uh, it's kind of crazy to see, like, how much he's done over the last few, you know, actually over his entire career. It's kind of wild being in his forties and still making teams. So uh, yeah, it's crazy. Um, dude, more on to you How's, how's your day going so far?
Speaker 2:Doing pretty good. You know it's. I'm here, I'm living in basically, quebec, canada, where our winters are pretty brutal and it kind of depends from one winter to the other. Like last year was actually pretty decent, but this year specifically has been really hard, like just like snow all the time, a lot of ice on the roads, a lot of wind, uh, so yeah, so today I was able to get a run in, but like pretty much like was slipping like all the time with kind of like a lot of ice on the on the dirt roads here. But uh, yeah, I mean good day of training, then went on to a spin on Zwift afterwards and uh, that's pretty much it for the day so far.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice man, I love those days where you can kind of, uh, get your perfect double in, you know, get on the bike, get your run in and be able to get those things done. It's I don't know, it's like checking it off the off the off the box, right it's. It's kind of fun, dude, for winter, like, is it like Vermont, where you are? I know you're actually not too far from Vermont, new Hampshire, do you?
Speaker 2:just have like endless dirt roads to train on. Yes, actually I'm really close to Vermont, I'd say maybe 40 minute drive and I'm right at the border. So where I am, specifically in Quebec, it's very much like Vermont in the sense that we have a ton of dirt roads, and that's pretty much basically why I live here in Quebec. In this part it's called like the Eastern Townships, and yeah, we basically have like an infinity of dirt roads where we can train. And for me, it's one of my great like players of running. It's just like exploring all the countryside here and I think it's actually great running for it's great preparation for, like the trail running season, just because during the winter time we can't really run trails so much, just because there's like so much snow and so much ice. But on the dirt roads, since, like they, they plow, they plowed roads- yeah, they plowed a road, so basically you can run there to surface isn't too bad, but you have like a ton of hills.
Speaker 2:So when you think about it, I see it, it's kind of like if you're running trails, but like non-technical trails with good hills, so it's kind of like actually pretty good for training for the trail running season, I'd say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, the dirt roads are amazing, like we don't have a ton out here but we, like I'd say, boulder and that area probably has a lot more. Um, but yeah, when you can get on to train on like steep dirt roads, it builds strength. Uh, obviously, it builds a phenomenal running economy because your steps are in place, like your cadence is solid. So, yeah, I feel like, from a training perspective, like you can get super fit off of just miles and miles of rolling dirt roads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and it's. It's kind of like a cool feeling, because a lot of the time you kind of in some places where you think like okay, like there's probably very few people that have ever come like at this road, except from like the people that live there. So it's kind of like a cool, like sort of um, I don't know like I don't want to say like redneck feeling I guess, but just like a feeling of well, like I'm out here in the middle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, blue collar, exactly that's what I was working for. Uh, yeah, kind of like a blue collar feeling of being out there, like in the sticks, of like the countryside and just training there. I think it's it's. It's pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 1:I know you and Dan Kurtz are competitors. I know you guys have raised each other a bunch over the last few years and now teammates, which is pretty dope. We'll get to that, um, but do you ever venture down to like train with the Northwoods guys like him and Ben true, eric Lapuma, I know that's not too far away.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like not too far away, but they're kind of like maybe an hour and a half south of the borders or so for us to link up would take like like one of us would have to do like a three-hour drive, which is, it's far, not so much, but it's still like kind of significant. But like we've messaged each other, each other so many times, I'm like, oh man, we gotta link up, we gotta do some trainings together, but it never actually happened. Um, but I think, yeah, we have very similar terrains to run on and you know I've made the trip a lot to the northeast to do a couple races there, where you know I've raced down, and last, uh, last fall, dan made the trip to do to the canadian mountain running championships in quebec. So so, yeah, that's been really cool and hopefully this year we'll find a moment to get some training in together, cause I mean, yeah, those guys are super cool, eric and Dan, and I would love to do some training with them for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just, it's cool that there's like a solid contingent that's continuing to grow Like dude. I think the this past off season, once they announced the Cirque series races that were going to be in the Northeast, I started doing like a deep dive into like okay, what can I like couple my schedule with? Like cause I have family in the Northeast. So I was like what can I couple my schedule with and maybe stay a little longer out there and race a bunch of stuff? And I was like kind of pleasantly surprised on like the Northeast scene is legit, like there's a lot of good, like solid, like mountain races out there that like people don't really talk about.
Speaker 2:Totally and I think, looking at 2025, it's going to be very exciting specifically for the month of June Cause, like you say, for, for example, someone who would want to spend like one month in a Northeast to race in the month of June you basically have something every weekend, because the first weekend you have Sunday peace scramble is the US Champs for the up-down, then the week after that you have Cirque Series at Cannon Mountain, the week after that you have Mount Washington Road Race and then the week after that, I think, you have Cirque Series Killington.
Speaker 2:So it's really nice. And I think something I really appreciate about like those northeast races is that they're very focused on like the historic side of the races, like it's races where, like, for example, mount washington road race or loon mountain race, like it's races where the course has stayed like the exact same one year to the other and they put a lot of like emphasis on like the history of it of all the different times and all the runners that I've been there and it's kind of like it's very simple, it's a very simple organization, but it's just so. I don't know. I found it kind of very cool when, like the organizations like put emphasis on like the history of it and yeah, it's just, it's, yeah, it's just like classic mountain, mountain running really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, I mean, I would even venture like just by like the proximity and the amount of sub ultra races in the Northeast. I would venture to even say it's like the Met, like almost like the Mecca, and the only reason I'll say is because, like yeah, like we've broken arrows in the West there's a bunch of like um braces at like different uh ski resorts in, in, you know, throughout the mountain west, like uh, the cirque series and stuff like that, but and you have the rut, but outside of that, like for me in colorado, like, dude, we don't really have like any solid other than like kendall mountain and the a basin race at cirque. Like we have like no really good sub ultra races, I mean pikes, you could argue for that, but there's just like not the amount that you would have in the northeast where you could do it like literally back to back to back, like every weekend and like have something to do which is crazy.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's. It's kind of cool. I don't know, Like I was looking at, have you ever raced? Is it the Cranmore mountain race? I was just looking at that.
Speaker 2:I never ran that one, but I know Dan has run it in the past and it looks really cool.
Speaker 2:It's just like the timing of it is kind of complicated, cause it's like beginning of october and that's like where all like so many other races take place at the same time. But yeah, that looks like another legit race that I want to do. It's like an up down on like ski slopes so you can go super fast, and I mean that's another part what I like about like these northeast mountain races, which is kind of ironic in a sense, because like a lot of like the northeast trails are super technical with like so many rocks and roots, but the mountain races themselves are usually not super technical because they want you to do like to actually like run fast, basically, and me I really like that, I'd say, and yeah, I think Cranmore is like a perfect, perfect example of that, where you go up like some ski slopes, which is for sure like super steep but not technical, and you can just like bomb down like some fire roads or some, uh, yeah, some ski slopes again.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, it's crazy, man, so much good stuff out there. Um, all right, let's pivot to. I definitely want to get into a little bit of your background. If you wouldn't mind, just give like a little breakdown I think your relationship of how you got into running is really interesting and like talk about your background with tennis as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, basically I'm surprised you know that. But yeah, I used to play tennis growing up, uh, basically until the age of 19, basically, and from there I kind of was at a crossroad where I had the choice of either studying in the US with a scholarship to pursue tennis or stay in Quebec. And if I would stay in Quebec which I eventually had to take the decision to do I kind of was forced to quit tennis, just because if you want to pursue tennis, like at a higher level, you're kind of obligated to have like a coach, um, like a strength coach, you need to have some very good like training partners, you need to have access to all these different installations and at some point it's just like it's very expensive. So if you're not like supported by a bigger program, like in a us college, then it's very difficult to pursue on your own. So basically, since that was impossible for me, I decided to stay in Quebec and basically quit tennis. And after a couple months of not really doing that sport anymore, I was kind of like what do people do with all this time? And like this energy, like what is? What do people do normally? So it kind of like was kind of very instinctive, where one day I was just like, well, you know what, I'll just like go out and just go for a run, you know, and it.
Speaker 2:I really fell in love with it pretty much immediately, just because of the independence of it, because I kind of was really tired of all that, those stuff about tennis, in the sense that even though I was really motivated, just because, like I didn't have access to all these different resources, like I couldn't um level up like in the sport, whereas I felt like with running, which was what was really refreshing, was that you're in complete control of what you can do, basically like you don't really need any installation, you only need like a pair of running shoes and you could just go on your own and train it as much as you can. Basically, and I think it's nice, when I look at it in hindsight, that I didn't really have like any friends that were running, or I didn't have any coach at that time. I never didn't really know anyone that was running, but it was just purely like I was running simply because I loved it, and I think that's really that's really nice that it started that way. It kind of shows that I did it for like the good reasons, I guess like I was enforced by someone else to do it and yeah, basically really like pretty much was hooked on running since the beginning and I think very typically started doing a lot of like road running at the start and looking back on how I trained during those times, it was very ridiculous how I would run, because I think today in running, a lot of people have access to it's like so easy to have information about running, like on the internet. But even though it's not so far ago but like in 2017, even like if youtube and everything was a thing like a lot less people were talking about, like the training of running. And since I didn't know anyone personally who was running, I kind of had to do those uh researches by myself and it was very limited what you can find.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, at that time I was running way too much for my level at the time and my idea was like, okay, I want to do a marathon and every time I go run, I'm kind of near the four minutes per kilometer pace, which is like six 10 per mile. So my idea was like, okay, if I want to run a marathon at four minutes per kilometer pace every time I'm going to go run, I'm going to try to run at four minutes per kilometer pace. Every time I'm gonna go run, I'm gonna try to run at four minutes per kilometer pace, which was like super dumb. But if I go around like three kilometers or 20 kilometers, I'd always try to like hit that pace because in my mind it was like this is the pace I have to get used to. And, yeah, it actually almost worked. I think I ran like 251 for my first marathon and I think pretty solid 248 is like for a minute pace. Um, so, yeah, so basically did a couple road races to start and just slowly learned a bit more like how to train, just like talking to people and like making friends into the sport.
Speaker 2:And then at some point, after another marathon where I ran like 243, I was like okay, I'm kind of ready to try something else. I feel like doing another block of like running on the roads would be kind of long. So I discovered trail running at that time and, um, yeah, I think, uh, what I regret I'd say about that period is that in my mind it was kind of like okay, I've done marathons, now like what's the next thing to do like, what's my next objective? Well, it has to be longer than marathons. So at that time I was like, okay, I've done 42k, now let's do 50k. Then when I did my first 50k I was like, oh well, let's try 50 miles.
Speaker 2:So in my mind it was always like every time I finished a race it's kind of like my idea was like, oh well, if I want to have another goal, I just have to go like upper in distance, whereas I realize now that that's not really the way to go, like your goal. I mean now I feel much more satisfaction and I'll try the same distance, but my next goal is just to get faster at it and I much more appreciate that. So, um, so, yeah. So basically, for a couple years did a lot of like 50k's to 50 miles and I think those years were really fun in terms of training because you know, I just like ran a lot like in the woods and just exploring so many trails here in quebec, which I mean, yeah, we don't have like super high peaks like in colorado, but we have a lot of nice trails to explore, so have a lot of fun with that and um, but yeah, but I think in terms of racing. In hindsight, I didn't have so much fun racing like the 50k to 50 mile distances and, um, so yeah.
Speaker 2:So then, like fast forward a couple years back in 2023 I think, or 2022, I ran loon mountain race, which was like my first sub ultra, like sort of legit mountain race, and that was like an eye-opener for me. It was like, oh my god, like, first of all, it kind of showed me that like, oh, I'm actually pretty good at this shorter stuff, but I think, even more importantly, it showed me that I really enjoyed that distance, like just like the racing aspect of it, of being like you're starting the race and it's not like, oh you know, I should pace myself, I have to be have to be careful, to be careful to not go too fast, like in an ultra. I feel like for a race like Loon Mountain, you can just go all out from the start and that's something that's very cool. And the fact that you're always competing against all other runners during the race is very exciting as well. And yeah, from that point on, I've been basically focusing on sub ultra for the past three years and yeah, it's been, it's been really cool.
Speaker 1:Dude, I love your story, man, and it's so interesting to me, especially like not coming from the traditional track and field background, but more so tennis. The thing about the, about sub ultra and I think Joe describes it maybe one of the best ways. He's like there's a lot that goes into making a sub-ultra athlete and a good component of it is genetic predetermination, like how far will your genetics take you, because some people are good at it and some people are just not, and there's a little bit of wiggle room to work your ass off and get better and improve. But I just find it so interesting that you'll come across folks like you that didn't really do track and field and came from a non-traditional sport in tennis and like have success at a high level at the sub ultra distance, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:I think it's really cool yeah, yeah, yeah, I kind of like don't want to think about, I don't want to believe that genetics play a big part of it. I think I'm a big uh, I don't know if I actually believe it, but I I want to believe that anyone can like work their way to a high level in the sport. Um, but yeah, I should say that even when I was playing tennis even though tennis like yes, it's not only cardio, but cardio does play like a pretty big role in it and I was still like training quite a lot like of like endurance. So when I started running, it's not as if like I came from nothing, but uh, but yeah, but still, I didn't do any track and field when I was growing up, which would have been fun, but yeah, I would imagine like and the only reason I say that is like because you are.
Speaker 1:You stand out to me as like one of the best uphill runners in in the world possibly. Dude dude, I mean like you've done. You've had some crazy um, you know results. So I would imagine your VO two max I don't know if you've got it measured, but I would imagine it's pretty, pretty fucking high.
Speaker 2:I never have, actually, but I would be interested to do it, I think. But I think I think it's very specific to uphill my ability, because on the flats like I'm not super great, like if I do a 5k, like I'm not going to run like super quick, but I think there's something about uphills that it's just like for me, it's I love it and it's just perfect for me.
Speaker 1:It's funny. I was laughing and we'll get to your YouTube channel later, but one of the things I was laughing about as I was watching your, you have this amazing video of David Hedges versus Max Kean I think it was the 2021 or 2022 breakneck marathon and I just thought it was funny because you were hanging with them both as they were racing each other kind of on the flats and the descents and then all of a sudden they're going uphill and you are like paces ahead of everybody and I just thought it was kind of funny. I was like, ah, it makes sense.
Speaker 2:I was so happy that there were like these few like downhill uphill sections near the end, like for people who don't know.
Speaker 2:It's basically like I was waiting at. I think there was like two miles left to the race and I wanted to film like the last two miles of the race. And for the the whole race it was Max King who had like a huge lead. So in my mind it's like okay, like Max King is gonna come here alone, I'm gonna like jogging in with him, like maybe like we'll have a chat and it'll be interesting for like people who are watching. But then when I saw him and then David, like together, I was like holy damn, like this is gonna be super fast for me, and the last two miles was mainly downhill and pretty technical, which is, uh, pretty much my weakness, um, so basically, like I cut a lot of moments in the video, but for a lot of moments like they were gapping me and for a lot of times I was like, damn, like this, is it like this kind of sucks, like I'm not going to be able to to film them like till the finish line?
Speaker 2:but then, like there would be like some mini uphill sections and then I would just like hammer super hard because I knew like, okay, if I want to stay with them till the finish line, like I have to go, I have to like make moves almost on them, like on the uphills, and yeah, that was so fun. I mean, that was probably like the best filming moment I've had.
Speaker 1:I guess, dude it was a great video. Your YouTube is incredible, like I. I know you haven't put as many videos out in a little while, but like, dude, stick with it. Like I was blown, like I was getting so hyped watching these soon to be race. I guess someone had filmed the soon to be race as well, and you have a a great video on there of alex ricard and yourself, joe, and like garrett corcoran like just killing each other in the front. It was really fun to follow along. Um yeah, your youtube is awesome, man yeah, I miss that.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things maybe less so today, but especially like I don't know, like four or five years ago I think one of the things that was really missing in our sports is just like long form raw content of like races, like even today, if you think about like races like I don't know I'm uh, like sierra zanal or things like that you don't find any like actual like, like maybe, okay, golden trail does like a pretty good job, but I mean there's a ton of different like very big races that you don't find any like actual like like, maybe, okay, golden trail does like a pretty good job, but I mean there's a ton of different like very big races that you don't really find so much like content online of like the races themselves.
Speaker 2:And that was kind of like my intention of like well, okay, let's just, it's not that complicated, you just need a gopro. I don't think people care about the quality being like extremely good and so basically, yeah, my idea was just like let's just film a bunch of like raw content of different races. And yeah, I've had the chance to film like uh, yeah, a lot of races in quebec I ran, I filmed also jfk 50 mile and yeah, breakneck point was another one and yeah, I really enjoyed those it's. I've kind of slacked off a bit in the last couple of years just because when I'm racing myself a lot it makes it a bit more complicated to also film other races. But yeah, if I'm ever like injured again, that's something I want to do Like uh, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I loved it, man, and like I think you're so're so right, like there is especially and this is not to like shit on ultra at all, but like other than the fast ultras, I think sub ultra like has that. I appeal to it where if?
Speaker 1:you're in the last two miles of a race and you see, you know two of the best runners in the sport, like killing each other to win, especially that sprint finish, um, coming down the grassy field or grassy knoll or whatever you want to call it, Like it was so exciting. Um, and there's so many like aspects to sub ultra that I think pop out and are a little more exciting to the average viewer as opposed to like this is not to shit on sub ultra or sub shit on ultra, but like at the end of a hundred mile race, right, Like yeah, unless it's Western States and that's the front 20 people like your people are walking generally right, or like jogging, so it's not as exciting. Um, so I think there's that. I appeal to that Like I think you're, you're really onto something with it.
Speaker 1:The other thing, too, that I thought was cool is that you were very transparent in a lot of your workouts. You would post these like workout videos of a lot of these different um, you know, like rolling road workouts that you would be doing like on the dirt roads and stuff, and I don't know. I just I one. I love the transparency because I think, as a professional runner, people wonder like, uh, what do we do? Like, how do we get fit? Like people think it's just some you know black box there, but like you make it much more transparent, um, for people to kind of see what you're up to and how you're, you know, achieving these great things, because it could see what your workouts are like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I've. I'm someone who really enjoys like the science of it in like I do lactate tests and all these different things. I look at heart rate a lot and I think I guess the reason I like to share it so much is just because that's kind of how I learned about it myself is just like watching some YouTube videos, and you know, when I started trail running, basically my main resource was like Sage Kennedy's YouTube videos. So I think it's kind of, I guess, in a way being kind of like the same way of let's just share what I want. And I think there's also maybe another part of me that's just like in on social media.
Speaker 2:I find it kind of I don't want to say awkward, but just like I never know what to share about because it's just like it doesn't feel very genuine sometimes. But that part of it it's kind of it feels kind of natural because I feel like there's a, there's an actual meaning to it, like and it can actually like serve someone who's listening to that message and be like oh well, that gives me an idea, like maybe I'll try that workout like next week or something, whereas sometimes on social media, if you're just talking about like yourself. It's just like, well, like, what's the point of it? You know, like yeah yeah, if.
Speaker 2:I see someone on the street, I'm not not going to say like, hey man, I just like won this race this weekend or whatever, it's just like it's kind of awkward. Whereas I feel like showing a bit more about, like, some training insights, I feel like has a bit more more meaning and hopefully like yeah, I can maybe give some ideas to to some people to do themselves give some ideas to some people to do themselves Dude.
Speaker 1:I think it's an interesting thing you bring up. Like one of the things I've pondered and I've had a lot of conversations with other folks in the sport lately about is like authenticity, but like authenticity on social media and like Instagram's almost I think Instagram would probably be the best example, cause it's a weird place. It's like okay, do I like? Obviously, brands require folks to in some ways to post, right and. But it's also like weird. It's like do I post about? Like okay, I could post about a race result that makes sense, or like my experience at this race, but it's like what do I post about all the other times? I just post about, like my training, like what do people think about that?
Speaker 1:Like do I think I'm like showing off? I don't want to show off like, I just want to be a normal person, so it does. It's an interesting like, um, uh, like situation. I, I, I ponder it myself. I'm like I don't want to come off grandiose or like. I'm talking about like or braggy, you know. So it's. It's a weird, whereas almost like a podcast or a YouTube channel is much more authentic and storytelling.
Speaker 2:You can really truly be yourself a little bit more, as opposed to just sharing the world, and in photos, which is interesting yeah, I agree, I think on social media, for myself, I I can't, yeah, that's I kind of like stick to sharing my races and sharing my training, but kind of like in a way where there's like a bit of like an education sort of side to it and that's kind of like how I justify myself that it's okay to do that and not like arrogant or any. Yeah, like any way like that. But yeah, I agree with you, it's social media. When you think about it like a bit too long, it's kind of like wow, this is so strange that like we do that, you know. But uh, but yeah, I guess, yeah, for me, I I enjoy sharing those stuff, so it's not a it's not such a, such a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's cool and I applaud you for it. Like the, youtube is cool and your blog is neat too. I read a couple of the things you put on there. I thought that was great as well. I love seeing athletes at a high level start to like branch out, and I'm seeing more people do sub stack a lot.
Speaker 1:And there's been some great writing on sub stack lately. Um, in trail running, um, yeah, it's just interesting seeing people do different things, that kind of um. You know they can express their voice in the sport a little bit more if you will, which has been interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, I want to move on to talk about sponsor. I know you recently just, uh, departed merrill to join the brooks team and I thought that was a really exciting signing because I love the investment that brooks has been putting recently into sub ultra like I just think that they have. I guess, if we're comparing like itra, like probably the deepest sub ultra and most talented sub ultra team in the world right now just by how many athletes they have Like, can you share a little bit about that experience of what it's been like so far? I know it's pretty fresh, but yeah, it's been really great.
Speaker 2:I mean, to be honest, like you just mentioned it, the fact that they have so many sub ultra athletes and that they are very passionate about the sub ultra scene is something that was really appealing to me and really made me want to like be part of the team.
Speaker 2:Um, like, just like in a couple maybe next month actually I'll go to seattle and we have like this training camp with all the north american athletes and I'm just so excited by that. I think there's a ton of like runners who have been and are still with Brooks today, which I'm already pretty good friends with, which is really exciting. And, like you said, they have a lot of new signings which will be really nice to meet up with them as well. And yeah, I think they're they're sort of a vision. I guess is one with which I identify quite a lot, in the sense that they seem they kind of like are professional, I guess in a way like there's a they incentivize performance quite a bit and I don't feel like the pressure to have to do like a thousand social media posts and stuff like that with them. So that's something with which I identify quite a lot and I really appreciate and, yeah, I'm just really looking forward to race and meet up, like all my fellow teammates now.
Speaker 1:That'd be great, man. I mean like from a signing perspective, like Taylor Stack, sydney Peterson, like yourself I'm trying to think of who else they picked up, like quite a few new sub ultra, like very specific sub ultra athletes. It was really exciting to see that. And then you know, like you guys have, like Roberto De Lorenzi on the team, you know, Dan Kurtz, like it's. Like it's a deep team dude, Like there's a lot of good, solid Brooks athletes, which is exciting.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's going to be really fun. Yeah, Especially like at the golden trail races. I feel like we're going to be like a very strong team there, Like.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Like all of what, like their Brooks kit at the start. That's going to be. It's pretty, it's going to be pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's talk, let's talk golden golden trail.
Speaker 2:What is your uh cause? I know, on ultra, ultra, sign up. I saw we'll talk about some of your uh planned races for this year, but I did not see broken arrow on there. Are you going to be? Are you going to be there this year?
Speaker 2:I mean, okay, that's kind of like a complicated situation of it, because I'm hoping I'm going to be entered with golden trail okay because golden trail has, like this elite program that they open during the winter and basically if I'm accepted in that program I can basically sign up and have a free BIM for whatever golden trail race I want. But they haven't responded back. But at the same time I know a lot of other people and no one has received any answer yet. So I'm starting to get a bit worried about that.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't. I wouldn't, I mean dude your 2024 season was insane, like you'll, yeah, yeah yeah, they gotta let you, if not, just reach out to brandon and just be like yo.
Speaker 2:Give me a yeah yeah, yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I mean that's main broken arrow is definitely the the goal. And there's also like this new race in mexico the week after that I definitely want to do and, um, yeah, then after that there's a race in Austria and then Sierras and Al. So those would be like my four golden trail races this year. I think Sierras and Al is definitely one. It's like the race I really want to do. Last year I was supposed to do it, but I got sick, like just before the race. Uh, well, just before a couple weeks before. Um, and yeah, this year I just really want to to go out there. I think it's such like an iconic race and, in my mind, most likely the most competitive like trail race simply on the planet yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I'm just really looking forward to go out there and, yeah, I think it's going to be really exciting.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we could dive deep, more deep, into series and all just because I think from someone like yourself, because there's so much climbing early on, like dude, you have, like a, an interestingly rare skillset to be able to perform very well at that race. Um, I don't know you should. I think if I would be, I'm buying stock like I'm excited to see you go see it, do it.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's, it's such a tricky course and I'm really gonna have to think about my strategy for it, just because, yes, it starts like with a really long climb, but at the end of the climb you're three miles into a 20 mile race. So it's like you can't. It's something like that, maybe a bit more than three miles, but it's like wow, like you can't go all out on that climb and having race like sub ultra, it's like people go all out at the beginning every time stupid so even if I go, even if I have like a really good climb, I mean I'm probably not going to be near the front, so I'm not going to be like in the front, I guess.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be very like a long race afterwards. But yeah, it's, it's it. I think it's it's a part of why the race is so iconic is because the course is so special in the sense that you start with the double vk, then you have like very rolling section in the middle and then at the end, like one or two miles of like steep downhill and um, yeah, I think the preparation for it, especially like given the level of competition, like you actually have to do like some specific workouts for it, like in the sense that, okay, like I'll do workouts where I'll start with a steep uphill and then I'll do some intervals on the flat or something like that, just to like really prepare your legs for the demands of like the specificity of that horse it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I don't even know where to begin like on how to prepare for something like that. Like you need like a lot of very specific things. Um, from a training perspective, do you think in some of the time leading up, maybe you'll go out to europe a little bit early to maybe train on the course or see more of that? To like get some of your last specific reps in, or like what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Uh, I think that's going to be a bit complicated just because the week before there is the other golden trail race in Austria. So if I do have the chance to run on the course, it'll probably be like the week of the race. Um, so, maybe not so much, but I think one of the things I really like doing is and I think I'm pretty good at this is analyzing courses, like on Strava and all that different like all the different ways you can analyze courses, and I think, just like analyzing the course, I'll be able to like find some clients here in Quebec to kind of like simulate the course itself and, um, yeah, I think that's probably what I'll opt to do instead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Let me ask you this. I don't want to dial too back into training, but just out of curiosity, like when I know you do a lot of like more flatter rolling road stuff in the winter um, like a lot of people do. But like, when do you start dialing in more specific trail stuff? Do you just like wait for the snow to melt or do you try exactly? Is that what it is?
Speaker 2:okay, I mean if I could, I'd probably do mountain stuff all year long, but just because our winters like are so difficult, it's pretty much impossible or it's very difficult to do like actual like intensity in trails, basically from december until mid-april basically, um. So yeah, basically as soon as like mid-april starts and the snow starts to melt, that's when I get more like into trail specific workouts, um. But yeah, it's really depending on the, on the conditions, I guess, um. But I think it's kind of nice because it kind of like I'm when like mid-april comes, I'm really excited for mountain running workouts. I'm kind of like I'm when like mid April comes, I'm really excited for mountain running workouts. I'm kind of like fed up of doing all that flat stuff and it's kind of like refreshing to have the mix of both and I do think having some flat speed especially for me who doesn't have like a track and field background, to at least have like a big part of the season dedicated for that is pretty beneficial.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure, A hundred percent. I mean, dude, just from cadence running economy. There's so many things that will go into just continue to make you a better, better, well-rounded athlete in general.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I mean like these races now, like golden trail races, like at Mammoth Trail Fest, even though, like most of the races are in like trails and you're going steep uphill, like even like their first two miles, which is which was like on the road, I mean you have to be able to run at like five minute pace comfortably to be like in the top 25 at those races.
Speaker 2:so if you have like no, like flat speed. You're just like gonna start like outside the top 50 and it's like must be so discouraging to start like outside the top 50 and it's like must be so discouraging to start a race like so far back if you have like the intention of like finishing near the top. So just for like these small sections of like flat uh, yeah, like flat terrain during these races, I think you kind of need to have that, yeah, that background and speed of it yeah, you gotta have the turnover.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this also from a train, not just from a training perspective, but I do want to double back a little bit to broken arrow, like last year, you doubled in the VK and it was the 23 K correct and you had great races at both. What do you think you learned to be able to take away from last year to bring into this year that you think you can, you can improve upon? I'm just so, because that's a such a competitive, especially this year on golden trail.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be wild and I'd say for the vk especially, is to not get influenced by what the other runners are doing. Because when I look back at my own race, I felt like I started way too fast and that kind of um, I don, I don't want to say ruined, but it affected me negatively, like in the second part of the race or like, yeah, like in the second part of the race I was kind of like fading because of, like, my very fast start. But even though I felt like I started way too fast, I was probably like 25th after the first one mile. That's crazy. So I think it's it's because I was like so influenced by the other runners and I'm like, oh my god, like how are so many runners in front of me? I have to like, I have to catch up. I have to catch up.
Speaker 2:But even though I was fading in like the second half, I was still catching so many runners. So I think for this year was still catching so many runners. So I think for this year I'll be a bit more smart at the beginning and just really focus in on my own perception of my effort. And even if that is like I think actually Mika Baudouin, who finished third, he did like a perfect race because I think he was even like behind me after the first mile. He really did his own effort and, yeah, he finished third at that race. So I think this year I'll definitely just like, yeah, focus in on my own effort, and if I'm 50th at the beginning then that's fine, and I just have to be confident enough that I'll be able to reel everyone in like in that second half that's amazing, and I think you have the unique ability to be able to do it Like.
Speaker 1:Your uphill speed is so solid. I mean, dude, last year to come away, what were you? Sixth place or something like that in the VK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. It's like it's such a crazy result to think like.
Speaker 2:I mean you're talking Patrick Kip. I raced like Philemon and Patrick so many times because I did a lot of like World Cup stuff in the last couple of years and, yeah, I think that's the only time I beat Philemon, I think.
Speaker 1:Dude. All right, so I didn't want to pivot too hard, but I find it very interesting, because you are the only person that I've had on the podcast that's beat David Sinclair in one year twice, which is so crazy to think of. You got him at. You got him twice. I'm trying to remember, because I was just looking at the stats before we had this podcast. You got him at the canadian mountain running champs, and then you got him another time. I can't remember what race it was, though, but you did, I think he was.
Speaker 2:I broke an arrow, vertical. That's right, that's what it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah which is crazy because like david sinclair's, like, like he's like god level, which is kind of wild to think about I think it kind of shows the beauty of our sport of like every race is so unique, like if I would have ran, jfk david would have destroyed me like from or like maybe a couple hours.
Speaker 2:But since every course is so different, it just allows for different athletes to sort of excel at these very like niche differences of our sport. And I think that's what makes it makes, like trail running in general so cool. Because if you compare it to, for example, like road running, if X runner, if, like Kipchoge, is running against I don't know like another roadrunner, like, even if the course changes like a bit, 99% of the time if this runner, like has a faster PB than the other runner, like that first runner is probably going to win, whereas in trail running, if a race is technical, if a race is more longer, it's you know, all these different parameters are in play. It just allows for different results every time. As a spectator, I think that's really exciting.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a very difficult thing then to become dominant. You can only be dominant in the races that like fit your skills, skills the best. That's why I found joe to be such an anomaly dude, because, like joe has been him and andy, I mean alien d is a first ballot hall of famer joe's one of the greatest, if not the greatest, to ever do it, and it's like these guys have smashed it for years and years and years and on all kinds of courses too, which is crazy to think when you have, like you in the mix, christian Allen, el Huzin, all kinds of folks coming into the sport now, which is crazy. So, yeah, it's, um, it's, I'd say, the most exciting time in our sport, like ever, you know, with all these new, all the new talent coming in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I 100% agree and I think it's also nice to see a bit more media coverage. Like I'm, I really love this sport as a runner, but I also really love this sport as a spectator, like as a fan of the sport. And now it's very cool to see, like a lot of these races with like who invest a lot in media coverage and just like uh, you know, like some podcasts where they do previews of the races themselves and then they do previews of the races themselves and then they do breakdowns of the races afterwards. I think, as a spectator of the of the sport, it just makes things so much more enjoyable and so much more exciting to like follow the races themselves. And, yeah, I agree with you, it's a very exciting spot, it's a very exciting time to follow this sport and I feel like we just see so many more like road runners or track runners making the switch to sub ultra running and that's just going to elevate the level so much and, yeah, it's going to make things so great.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this so you like it as a spectator? I'm just curious as, like someone that's at the very top of this, like you're you're on your way to being at like at the top of the sport, like you're like a serious competitor, how do you like people talking about you on podcasts? Or like talking about your performance or talking about this, or picking you or not picking you? Like, how does that play psychologically for you? Is that weird to like hear your name and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:Uh, no, I wouldn't say so. I think I mean yeah, I think no, I wouldn't say so. I think I mean yeah, I think no, I wouldn't say it's weird or anything. Um, uh, yeah, I think maybe one of the particularities with me is just that I've raced a lot of races, like I ran a lot of races which people don't really know about, like I've done a lot about like the world cup, world cup stuff, like WMRA, which in North America maybe I think people don't really know that so much it's more popular like in Europe. So maybe, like, sometimes I've been a bit like left out of conversations just because people just don't know the races that I've done, which is totally understandable.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, no, I don't find it. I mean I don't take it personally or anything, it's just, it's just normal. And, um, yeah, I think it's fun that you know people talk about that and just make previews of races and talk about the athletes. I think that's if you want to make people more interested in like the competitive side of the sport, I think you kind of have to talk about like the athletes, like individually, and make these comparisons and I think it's just going to, at the end of the day like elevate everyone, and the athletes themselves, because they're going to have more visibility. So therefore, more opportunities with sponsors.
Speaker 1:I do. I think it's a beautiful answer and I think it's a super positive mindset to have. The reason I ask is because, like, I'm an athlete in the sport and I cover the sport, so it's weird for me I always am interested to get people's takes on it because it's like you know, if I'm having like a, if I'm sitting here and we're doing like a student, let's say soon a P, right or broken arrow, we're having, you know, the race conversation about it. Like we talk about strengths and weaknesses, we talk about all these different things. So, and I think about how I would feel I'm like, oh man, if someone you know, I would feel great if you're elated.
Speaker 1:If someone's like, oh, I'd pick this person or yourself to you know to be, uh, I don't know, a top contender if you will, and then like, or if someone you know talk some beef or whatever, I don't know, just be prepared, there's going to be a lot of. We're going to have a lot of cool conversations going into this year with the seep stuff, like we're going to cover soon to pee in a way that, like I think a lot of these mountain running champs have never been covered before broken arrow, definitely. So there's a lot of cool stuff we're going to be doing coming in this year.
Speaker 1:So it's good to get your feedback. Appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I'm all for it. You know, I mean maybe some people are going to be like a bit I don't want to say triggered or like insulted by it, but I mean I think I'm all for it. You know, you just have to not pick it personally and it's just opinions. And yeah, opinions, and yeah, I think it's. I mean people just have to realize it's just opinions and if you want to show that, uh well, you're better than what people expect, then you just have to do it.
Speaker 1:Well, let's do it. It's a competitive sport, right like it's. It's conflict and conflict resolution right like yeah, we have the conflict with the race and we can, we and it's resolution by who who gets, who wins, right, I don't know, and we're talking about running performances.
Speaker 2:We're not talking about the people themselves, their value as people. We're talking about their running performances. I think there's such a big distinction to make there that sometimes people get intertwined a bit. But it's like yeah, to say that someone is going to beat someone at a race doesn't mean that that person is better than the other person. It just means that they're running performance Right.
Speaker 1:We think is going to be better than someone else Like yeah. Based off of prior performance.
Speaker 2:Right, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I think it's cool on the back of like on that competition discussion. I'm very curious to hear, like what your like um your relationship is with competition, Like, how do you view it?
Speaker 2:is with competition, like, how do you view it? I think what I just said is actually something that I think has helped me quite a lot is to separate performance with value as a person. I think that's something that I've definitely leaned on a lot in the past couple of years, in the sense that I think I have a very healthy relationship with competition, in the sense that when I approach races, I'm very I don't want to say hard towards myself, but I have very high goals and like high standards for myself. But I think, since I'm able to differentiate like who I am as a person and my running performances, that means that if I don't meet my goals, I'm not like unhappy afterwards because it's just like, well, I didn't meet my goals, but I'm still, I'm still me, you know I'm. It doesn't mean that I'm less of a person afterwards and and I think that's something that's very important as a competitor like who puts a lot of like high pressure like on ourselves in terms of like performance, because if you don't make that distinction, I think it can be really hard after bad races to like cope with that.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I really love competition and I think, uh, yeah, I just for me, one of my biggest motivations now in training is just to be able to to compete, and I think that's part of why I do sub, sub ultra races. It's just because, like the feels most often time like you finish within like less than a minute from other runners and you really have to give it your all and during the race, like you're always you know, there's always someone in your sight, in front of you or behind you, and I think that aspect of sub ultra running is something that I really, really enjoy.
Speaker 1:It's the greatest sport on earth, man. I have to say that, um, on that topic, like, do you find it easier with sub ultra, cause we do so many races in the season? Right, I find it easier to, like, shake off a bad performance just because, like all right, well, I got another one the next weekend or the weekend after that, right, like I feel like it's easy to forget 100%.
Speaker 2:I feel bad for people who do, who do ultras and I have a lot of friends who do that and sometimes it's kind of heartbreaking because they have like this three or four month training block for this one specific race. And we all know as runners that some days it's out of your control, like some days you just wake up like on the wrong side of the bed and you just have like a bad day. And it's been very heartbreaking to see, like, for example, friends who have like these amazing training blocks but on the day of the race they just don't perform for x or y rate reason. But after an ultra you can't be like if you want to race again, it's like, well, okay, I gotta try again in like three or four months because it takes so long to recover from these races, whereas in sub ultra, which is like so nice is if you have a bad race, then it's like, well, okay, I can just see you next week, exactly. And yeah, that's that's super fun.
Speaker 2:And you know it's not to say that sub ultra racing is is easier like like not at all, but it's the recovery time from races which is much shorter than the ultra races and, um, yeah, I think that's. That's amazing, I think in the last couple years years, I mean, like I just said, I really love competing and since I do sub-ultra races, I've been able to do so many races in the last couple of years I think 2024 and 2023, I think I ran 19 and 20 races respectively for those two years. So, yeah, it's great, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's amazing too, because it's I mean, it's an opportunity to build your career right With all those races. People get your name, you get your name out there and you can kind of see, like, okay, where do I fall amongst the competition? So it actually helps with training too. I don't know, I just find that there's so many good opportunities to answer questions and check boxes with with uh, you know, with racing more and having those, because that's the other thing too. I was talking to somebody the other day about like race rust and like how it's like a real thing where, like you will forget certain things.
Speaker 1:So you have to do tune up races and tune up efforts to be able to you know, before your big dance, or proverbial big dance, to get ready for something like that.
Speaker 2:You know. That's so true. Actually, in 2023, I did two trips to Europe where in each of the trips, I raced like five weeks in a row and both of those trips my first races of these two trips were like my worst races. But I think it was because, like it had it had been like so long since I have like that race effort and that's sort of like you can't you kind of like have to be in a special mindset when you're racing and you forget about it very quickly. So I think, yeah, those first races went pretty bad, but since I had that experience, I was able to bounce back and race really well, like for the next weeks after that. But, yeah, for someone who's doing ultras, like that first race, if it went bad, then it's like them start again in a couple months. So, yeah, I think there's definitely an advantage of that.
Speaker 1:I'm just like practicing being in that competition, the setting the competition setting and then even like um, like what to eat for breakfast, right? Or like how many hours should I eat before I write all these little things that, like you know, you might be able to get away with on like a training run, but like, when it comes like a impossibly hard race effort and like you're smashing yourself like those little things add up. I have a question for you about ultra versus sub ultra, especially being a sub ultra athlete and then racing in Europe. You see how big the sport is in Europe. It's enormous. But the US remains very ultra-centric and I literally was just talking to my wife about this the other day. I don't know why. I don't know what it is that's so I don't know. I find sub-ultra. For me it's so captivating, for so many others it is, and it's so interesting. But I still do not know and I'm curious to see what others others think, like I posed this question out to everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something I think about quite a lot and I think there's a lot of different reasons.
Speaker 2:I think in the media side of it I think it's pretty simple in the sense that if people see an article where it's like, oh, chris ran 300 miles for in 57 hours, anyone who reads that is like whoa.
Speaker 2:Even if you don't run yourself, it's like damn, like 57 hours, like running, that's crazy, that's insane. So people are gonna like click on that article and will want to read more, whereas if you say like, oh, like patrick kip and gano won the vk in 33 minutes, it it's like okay, I guess that's fast, but I don't really know. So I think people are maybe less interested in that. But then I think as, like a participation standpoint, I think it's just that most of the runners run because how can I say this? I think what they search in trail running isn't the performance side of it. It's more about just being out there for a lot of hours in nature and just having a good time. And, yeah, I think for a lot of these people their challenge is more yeah, like doing longer distances, instead of like okay, like I'll really push myself, like for a vertical race.
Speaker 2:Um, I think for them, the accomplishment is to finish races, and so for the majority of like trail running participants, completing a vk isn't like a big enough challenge, just because they know they can do it like most people can complete a vk if you want yeah but for them, like being able to, oh like, arrive at the finish line of a 50 mile is, for them, like a much bigger accomplishment, just because it's something that they're not sure at the start line that they're going to be able to do, whereas I think, like for us, our motivation in sub-vulture running is not to finish, but it's to do it as fast as we can and push ourselves as much as we can. And I think there's less people that find that appealing.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, that's a really good answer, and I think it checks so many things Well. And then, on the flip side of that, though and I agree 100% with what you're saying Like, for instance, like Broken Arrow, right, the VK I mean they must have. It's got to be what five or 600 participants in, like a VK. It might be a little less than that, but what I'm trying to get at is like the VK at the Broken Arrow and the rut gets like an enormous amount of people, so like people that are interested in it.
Speaker 1:The interesting thing is, like, if we had more of those in America, or even just in North America in general, like would it be possible to continue to grow the sport? Cause, you see, like you see Europe right, and like people know who the elites are, like everybody does, and it's like this fan base, it's just like cycling, right, or just like tennis or whatever. Like people know who the professionals are and they follow the sport in that way and they also are participants in it, whereas in America, I think it's a little bit less that people care about what the elites are, and more so because it's such a mass participation event. They can go, participate in it, so they just want to do it. But I feel like if we continue to grow the people in it or the, the fan base, if you will, by highlighting the, the elites, and highlighting the people doing it, I think that will will continue to grow the sport and push it in the right direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking out loud now, but I think one of the reasons why maybe a lot of like road runners, like a lot of like mass participants, are doing road races is because, like, the distances are standardized, standardized, standard standardized.
Speaker 1:You got it, you got it, you got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it well, like runners can have like very clear objectives, like, okay, I want to run a half marathon like under two hours, whereas in trail running, I think, if we want to make it maybe more appealing for these types of people, like the courses have to stay like the exact same. So, for example, the broken arrow there has to be, like people have to be there and be like okay, like from what I can tell, like one hour and a half is like a pretty good goal, so like I'll try to go under one hour and a half or something like that. Um, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it's good in the way it's marketed, like, I think that in the standardized distance too, one of the things I like get frustrated with sometimes is like we have, um, you know, we have the ascent, we have the vertical, we have the up down, you know, and I feel like the up down is not something that's talked about really, like it cause's more. So, oh, we'll just do the 11k or do the the 27k, when, like, an up down is a much easier way to convey that, you know, convey it so and market it if you will like. Well, this is an 11 or 10k distance and they can kind of figure it out that way. Um, so I wonder if that's a component as well. I don't know, there's a lot of like things you can toy with to say, like, all right, well, well, you know, how do we get more? Cause the sport is growing enormously. It's so crazy how many people, um and you know, obviously, brands are making more money than they are, than they ever have, which is, you know, that's great Cause that trickles down to the athletes. Um, I don't know where I'm going with this, but, yeah, it'll be interesting to see as things progress, if we can grow sub ultra over the next few years. Yeah yeah, um, dude, really quick. I do want to pivot a little bit back to the golden trail series.
Speaker 1:Um, cause, obviously you ran mammoth and you ran headlands this year. I do have a question for you about headlands. It was for folks that don't know this. It was separated, like the men's field went on Sunday and the women's field ran on Saturday. What did you think about running in an all men's field? Like, how did that like? Was that? What was the dynamic like for that? Like do you think I don't know, like this is very different. Like I think women should have like in in some cases for these like high octane races, should have their own fields, like what were your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I actually think he was great. I think, uh, I think golden trail are pretty good with that in the sense that they like I think that was one of the first time where they're like literally separated from a day, like the women's field from the men's field. But I think, even like at other races, sometimes they, for example, made the woman start like 30 minutes before the men, and I think that's a really good initiative, because if we start all together, then 99 of the time what happens is that the coverage is on the men and then when the men are finishing, like when the first men are finishing, that's where, like, the exciting part of the women's race is actually going on, but we just don't see it because the cameras are focused like on the top 10 men finishing. So, yeah, I think it was, it was great, like as a runner myself, it doesn't really change much in the sense that, um, yeah, I mean, it doesn't really. I guess it's more like for the woman that it must change a bit more in the sense that a lot of like the elite woman, for example, in races where everyone starts together, like they have to run with a lot of like the like competitive men and they're surrounded by a bunch of people, so maybe for them, like, it's a bit more complicated to know, like, what position they are, and they have to pass a lot more people, which, from what I heard, can be quite annoying for a lot of the women, and I would not want to be in their place for that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think I think it's actually really great that helens did that and I think, uh, yeah, even at mamet trail fest, I think, yeah, the women have like a 30 minute head start or even more than that, because I think the first woman finished before the first man. And yeah, I think in terms of coverage, it's it's a very good initiative from from golden trail and uh, yeah, just to make the sport more, like from a spectator standpoint, more fair, like as much coverage for men and women, I think it's definitely the way to go yeah, no, I agree, I just thought it was really interesting that they did it and I know I've only heard just positive reviews about it.
Speaker 1:Dude, what did you think of headlands in the sense, like, like that was like probably the fastest golden trail race that like they may have ever had? Like that was a speedy race, dude, like what, what? What did you take away from that? Were you just like? Was that like, especially as a mountain athlete who excels more going uphill, if you will like, was that hard for you? Like what'd you think?
Speaker 2:I love the uphills, but I got so destroyed on the downhills. Like the downhills weren't technical but there were a lot. There were like enough switchbacks and like roots where you kind of like at least for me, like I was kind of slowed down a bit. And I mean looking at the splits of like Elusine or like philemon on that last descent, it's insane. Like I think they ran like uh, is it like a sub 14 minute 5k or something somewhere around like a 14 minute 5k.
Speaker 2:But like that downhill, wasn't it like they're like yes, it was like kind of smooth, but you had so many switchbacks where I mean I felt like at every switchback I was kind of like forced to drop down to like seven, seven minute per mile pace. So it's crazy for me like how fast they ran on the downhills. Um, yeah, for me that race was particularly fresh training a bit, just because basically the course was three up downs.
Speaker 2:So yeah, three climbs, three climbs, three downhills, and on every climb I would catch a bunch of runners, but then on the downhills those runners would then pass me back and then I catch them again on the downhill. So it was like a lot of back and forth like that. I felt like every time I was, yeah, just gaining momentum and moving up into the field, I would just lose that instantly as soon as the downhill started. But uh, yeah, I think it was a really cool course. I find it kind of unfortunate that it doesn't seem to be part of the golden trail this year and I don't even know if the race is going to continue to exist. Hopefully so. But um, yeah, that was, that was really fast and it was just so exciting. And looking at the splits afterwards were was really impressive, especially given the fact that I think the course was not as fast as people think, because there were like quite a lot of like switchbacky sections where that definitely like slow you down quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, dude, it's. It's crazy to hear that Like it was not, because on paper it looked like smoking fast looked like you know um, but that's interesting to hear, like how wild it was. Did you what? Did you prefer headlands or mammoth?
Speaker 2:in terms of course. Of course, uh, I mean, I actually say mammoth. I thinkammoth was less technical than Headlands Interesting. I think both races weren't like super technical, but I'd say Mammoth was a bit less Like that last 14 kilometers of downhill at Mammoth was pretty rolling and I think, given that it was at altitude, I think it was more advantageous for me, just because at altitude everyone is running slower.
Speaker 2:So, um, how can I say this? I feel like sometimes when we're doing downhills, I just don't have like that turnover to go super fast, but since everyone is going slower, that turnover is maybe a bit less important in a way. Um, so I think it was more advantageous for me. At mammoth and also at mammoth, you have like this huge climb which is like the dragon's back ascent, which is like a, yeah, like a three mile climb, and for me, like those sort of climbs, is right in my alley and I was able to make some pretty big moves there and I I think that really was good for me and, yeah, I really appreciate it. I really liked that course Interesting.
Speaker 1:Cool Now. I'm stoked to hear that you enjoyed it and I want to pivot a little bit to the Canadian mountain running champs that you race. What was it? The vertical and the up down? Um had two amazing races, but my curiosity out of that is that are you planning on going to worlds in september?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah yes, so I'm for sure selected for the up down because I finished first canadian, behind the dan kurtz who finished first overall for the race for the vertical. I'm not technically like officially selected yet because I finished second behind Alex Ricard who's who got like the Canadian. It was like basically the first Canadian had the automatic spot and but yeah, I mean I'm pretty sure I'm going to get selected for the vertical as well. But yeah, I'm really excited for that. It's going to be my third year at the World Mountain Running Champs and I think Canada this year is going to have like a very good team.
Speaker 2:I feel, like every year or every two years I guess, the interest among like Canadians to be part of the team has just grown a lot more and I think, especially like this year at the canadian championships, it was very remarkable to see how many runners from the west made the trip to come race here in quebec, because I think, historically, a lot of the canadian mountain running championships, if the race took place in west, like in british columbia, would be only people from that area who would race.
Speaker 2:Because I think, yeah, canada, canada is like so big like for me to go to british columbia it's like a six-hour flight, um. So yeah, most of the time, if the race would take place in the west, it would be only west turn canadian people who would do the race and in the east it would be their way around. And I think this year was really exciting to see so many people from very like pretty much almost all provinces of quebec make the trip to uh to come race the canadian running championships, and I think we're going to have great teams, even like on the woman's side, we have uh jade bellsberg, who's an amazing runner. She finished second at broken arrow this year. I think that's going to be very exciting and it is a muffin, who's another runner from quebec who won both the vertical and the up down. And yeah, I think it's going to be.
Speaker 1:I can't wait for for that race in september yeah, you guys are going to bring a stack team man, especially like you know I was. I was astonished back in watching soon api, uh, and you saw alex's finish on that video that you have on YouTube. It's weird because not only do I kind of view Joe as one of, if not the greatest of all time, but not too many people get to beat him, and seeing Alex do it I was like whoa Alex Rickard got? I mean? Sorry, I mispronounced his last name, oh, that's fair.
Speaker 1:He's a beast dude. I was thoroughly impressed. I and I have um I know he's out in squamish and I had a couple uh, jesse mccauley and a few others um had recommended him come on the podcast. We're trying to get him on now so if he hears this, we gotta recruit him yeah, alex is a beast like.
Speaker 2:Our nickname for him is, uh, theanimal, the animal he's just. He's so good man and like in these vertical races because I raced a lot with him in Europe in 2023 especially, and his times have been like really insane. Like we raced the Mont Blanc VK vertical kilometer at Mont Blanc, which, like Killian has raced that, has raced that, rémi Bonnet has raced that and his time is like really up there. I think like the course has always like changed like a bit from year from one year to another, but you can check like this travel segments for like the bigger portion of it, which like has stayed the same, and I think he has like the second fastest time or something like that. Wow up that course. And yeah, I think like a steep vertical race where it's like, let's say, like that 20 to 25 percent grade, with like steps in the course. I think alex is like top five in the world for sure. Oh, we got to get him out to do the minute to incline.
Speaker 1:I, yeah, I want to see somebody break Remy Bonet's record on that.
Speaker 2:Finally, I think he would be really good at that, at that sort of stuff, Like yeah. Or that or like Lafley in Switzerland.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was just going to bring that up.
Speaker 2:People get like the vertical kilometer like world records. Yeah, he would be amazing for that sort of course. Have you ever run on the lawfully? Uh? Course it's. I was there with alex, but we were there like a couple days after another race that we did in switzerland and it was very tempting to like try an all-out effort, but we didn't. But we we checked it out and yeah, it's, it's, it's, it looks amazing. It's just so cool to see, like I guess it must be kind of similar to the manning to inkline, where you just see the steps like going up, up, up, up, up, yep, and you can see like so far up, uh, up the course and uh, yeah, it would be really cool to go back there one day and like actually try like a full-on effort, yeah I mean it can't be that far.
Speaker 1:Is it that far from zonal? I don't know? No, that's it. It's it's really close, is it?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh, oh, dude, I think yeah, like the next day we were in Zermatt, which is relatively close to all that Ceres and all.
Speaker 1:Oh man, dude, you might have to throw that on the list this year, yeah, it's a really cool area. That was super cool, all right. So we hit selections, we talked about the world, we talked about worlds. I'm trying to think if we didn't, if we didn't hit anything we wanted to get to um curious to see who inspires you.
Speaker 2:Um, that's a good question. I get inspired a lot about, like track runners. I think a lot of the runners I follow uh are runners on the track and road. I listen a lot to the coffee club podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if you.
Speaker 2:You know those guys. It's like a group of like a track runners, um, who train in Colorado, in Boulder, colorado, um, from like the OAC on athletics club, and I mean I guess I'm inspired by them in the sense that I really liked their attitude where it's like they're very professional, like they train at a super high level but at the same time, like they have this very laid back approach to the sport and they really have fun with it. And that's something which I kind of find it really cool, in the sense that you can, on one hand, be really intense with, like, all the training and want to do all the little things correctly, but at the same time, you can still really enjoy it. And I think, like sometimes people think that they have to make a choice between the two, but I think their sort of um mindset is, yeah, is one with. That I find really really cool and I guess that's what I aspire to be for sure.
Speaker 1:I like that man Dude. What are your? What are your thoughts on like? So now, like you're with Brooks, I feel like you would have the ability to live and train in a lot of different places. Like if you do, you see yourself staying like where you're at for a long time, or do you think you would ever relocate to like find like a different training hub or somewhere that would fit you better?
Speaker 2:and that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a really great question.
Speaker 2:I think this winter, especially with the winter that we've had, I've definitely thought about it a lot more than in the past, and it's very difficult for me to say just because for sure, like if the question is like if it would be more beneficial for like uh, a pure running standpoint, to go stay somewhere else, like 100%, like in Quebec we don't have altitude, we don't have like the high mountains, we don't have, I mean, we have our winters, and even in the summer, like the, it's very, very humid, which is kind of makes it a bit more harder to train, but at the the same time, like this is where my family is, this is where most of my friends are, so it'd be kind of, I mean, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I think one thing that has to be taken into consideration is just like your happiness, like it's not worth it to stay somewhere else, even if you know that you're gonna maybe become a better runner staying somewhere else, if you're gonna be less happy staying at that place. But what I am considering is maybe, like for example, for next winter, for like these months from, let's say, january to march, do like a training camp somewhere. Yeah, because, yeah, I think our winters are particularly really hard to train through.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's a great answer, man, and one of the reasons I was tempted to ask too is just because I've seen so much investment from Brooks kind of go the way into SubUltra. So a part of me was like, all right, they're clearly building like a SubUltra team. Like I had to wonder if maybe like there is any idea of it being like co-located at any point.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, I would love that. If that would be the case, like hands down like I'm moving out, like tomorrow, that's always been the yeah, that's always been a dream of mine, like, particularly like looking at like the coffee club guys or like Hanson's Brooks or just like Brooks Beasts or teams like that. I think that's yeah. Yeah, that's something that would be so awesome in trail running.
Speaker 1:I don't think we're there yet in our sport, but I'm all for it, yeah yeah, I think I think we're maybe five years away, something like that, maybe less, maybe more. But yeah, I think I mean the weird thing about I don't know, like I think the, the boulder boys, have shown it can work because they all like none of them do sub ultra, if you will, like they all are ultra runners, they all run similar race, similar distances, so it it kind of makes sense.
Speaker 2:But like for sub ultra too, I think, like if you just had, like I don't know, like you, dan, uh, miki, like you know, a handful of of guys and gals that could, you know, uh, train at a high level like I don't know, I think I think that could work, dude, like just speaking that into existence, there you go, yeah, no yeah, totally, and yeah, it helps so much like, uh, even though they're not really sub ultra runners, like I train with a group of friends that do mainly like ultra runners and uh, that do mostly like ultra runners and that do mostly like ultra running, and even though, like our workouts are a bit different, just like to be able to do like our long runs together or like our workouts at different paces or whatever like it's, it helps so much to be there with like other people and yeah, I can't imagine having people who are there who are doing the exact same thing as you. That must be like. That must be like even more beneficial. And so, yeah, I think it would definitely move everyone forward. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a cool idea. Um, not to pivot too hard. I'm so curious because, like your, your specialty is like uphill running. Do you think we could ever get you out here to come do the uh, pikes Peak Ascent?
Speaker 2:100%. I was looking at it this year, but unfortunately this year I think it's at the same time as World Champs yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's definitely one of the races like on my list. I think those types of races with a lot of history, like I said earlier in the podcast, like are races which I'm really appealed towards, and you know where. The course is very simple. It's like you start at the bottom, you finish at the top and, yeah, that's just a concept that is very appealing to me and and yeah, I definitely want to come there one day, uh, even though, like, the altitude is most likely going to be a pretty big uh uh obstacle for me, but I'm all for it and uh yeah it's definitely one on my bucket list.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, I love to hear it on the topic of altitude Cause, like I was just so astonished, Like you did really well at broken arrow in both races last year, how did did you come out early, Like? Or are you just like genetically like really good at like dealing with suffering altitude?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm really fortunate to have a friend that has an altitude tent.
Speaker 2:So I was able to rent it from him for a couple of weeks and it's very difficult to say like that it has definitely helped me because I definitely felt a broken arrow, that I was running like slower than normal, even like on my training runs at Broken Arrow, that I was running like slower than normal, even like on my training runs, but at the same time, like even if you are perfectly acclimatized, you're still running slower. So it's very difficult to like quantify like how much it actually helped, but at the very minimum, like it must have not like hindered me at all. And yeah, yeah, when I look back on it, it's like even mammoth I mean mammoth was even higher than broken arrow Um, and those are, those were like probably some of my best races of the year Um, so, yeah, I think it must've helped at least a bit, even though I felt like I was going much slower. But, um, yeah, I think that's how I, how I prepared, yeah, that's interesting Good to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was so curious. I was like man, you smashed it and I was like, coming from, seal it, basically like what, a thousand feet or something like that, or a couple thousand feet.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm at sea level pretty much.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, wow, that's impressive man. Yeah, All right dude, as we wind down, I'm curious to hear, like what, what your walkout song is like. You're getting ready for a race. You're you got if you you know if you have earphones on. If you're a music guy, like what, like what do you? What are you?
Speaker 2:listening to. Okay, I'm pretty scientific about this, so it depends on my HRV. So HRV is your heart rate variability and basically when you wake up you can check it out. And if it's like on most smart watch on most smart watches you can check it out. And if your HRV is low, basically it means that your body is kind of like under uh, under stress a bit. You're a bit more like stressed than normal. And if your HRV is super high it means like you're kind of relaxed. So if I see that I'm relaxed maybe too relaxed then well, first of all I'm going to take a bit more caffeine than normal. Plus I'm going to put like some more like hype songs, so maybe like some Tupac or like some Eminem or stuff like that. But if my HRV is pretty low, which means I'm kind of like more nervous than usual, then I might just like chill out a bit, take less caffeine and listen to like some country music and like some Johnny Cash or something like that.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it. Do you get uh, do you get nerves before races, like standing on those big start lines? Do you get nervous at all?
Speaker 2:Of course I think it's. I get worried if I'm not nervous for races. I think it's uh, yeah, pretty much every time I'm I'm not nervous for races. I think it's uh, yeah, pretty much every time I'm pretty nervous for it. And um, yeah, I think I get nervous just because I know how much it's going to hurt, and I'm also always worried about how my mind is going to react to that hurt because I've had a lot of races like all the races I've done, like those vertical races that last like three to 40 minutes.
Speaker 2:After like 10 minutes in the race you're not feeling good. But it's more like how am I going to react mentally to not feeling good? That's going to kind of decide if you have a good race or not. Um, so yeah, I think it's sort of like that apprehension of what's to come and how I'm going to react to that. That makes me the most nervous, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it's natural being nervous. I've long thought about I ponder this all the time because I do. I get nervous at start lines. I'm like you know it's. I guess it's natural, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it shows that you care. And yeah, I think that's it's a good sign.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's a weird feeling. All right, dude. Last question I'm so curious to hear this because I usually ask people like a grouping of do you believe in Bigfoot, do you believe in aliens, ai? I'm so curious to hear if you believe in Bigfoot.
Speaker 2:If I believe in Bigfoot, what?
Speaker 1:the heck In Canada. That's not really a thing I'd say what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2:no.
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 2:Hard no.
Speaker 1:Oh man, all right, that's a hard one, that was a big shoot down.
Speaker 2:All right, fair enough.
Speaker 1:Well, Remy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is an amazing conversation, dude. I think we covered a ton. I want to wish you the absolute best of luck in 2025. We'll be in touch. I'll see you at Soonapy and we'll be doing some pre and post race interviews at soon to be. Uh, definitely with you, so looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man Can't wait to see you there. Thank you so much for inviting me today. Yeah, this is a great conversation.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man, thank you. What'd you guys think? Oh man, such a fun episode. Thanks so much to Remy for coming on and absolute congratulations for that third place at big Alta. Can't wait to see what Remy's going to do this season. I'm sure he's going to be. He's going to spank some folks at some of these races. The dude is dynamite.
Speaker 1:All right, before we get going, hop on Instagram. Let's get Remy some followers. You can find him at Remy, so it's R-E-M-I underscore, l-e-r-o-u-x underscore. You can also just type in, probably the Leroux, l-e-r-o-u-x. And it'll come up on Instagram and give him a follow. I'm sure he would appreciate that. Send him some emails or send him some messages of some kind words congratulating him on his finish, as well as what you guys thought of the episode, I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Cool Guys, I've got some big news this week. So this upcoming Saturday, the 29th, at 8 o'clock in the morning, colorado Running Company. I know I sound like a broken record, but if you are on the front range and are interested in joining us for our one-year anniversary, we're going to be doing a group run. It's going to be two distances, one four-mile and one six to seven-mile-ish distance and those are going to start out the door, probably around 8.05 to 8.10 in the morning. First 20 people through the door are going to get a free pair of Cetus socks that I'm super excited to give away. Cetus USA was super kind to provide us with some discount codes and some free socks to be able to give away to those folks that show up. In addition, after that group run, we are going to be doing some refreshments provided by Ultimate Direction, as well as Colorado Running Company and some conversation. We're going to have Mutt Rock out there. Mutt Rock's going to be talking about some of their products. Our friends from Taba Tours, the Taba Lodge out in Colorado Springs, are going to be out there talking about some of the projects they're working on and their vision for what they have for their business. That's going to be followed by some product demos and discussion around those from Ultimate Direction who's going to be giving away a bunch of free gear.
Speaker 1:Most of this situation, most of this day, is brought to you by Ultimate Direction. They're going to be giving away a ton of stuff and they're going to be demoing the new Race and UltraVest, the Race 6 liter and ultra 12 liter that just dropped that most people have not seen yet. Um, so I'm excited for folks that show up to get to see those products. Um, cause they're super cool. Um, we're also going to be doing a trail, a trail shoe demos. Um, nike is going to be there with two Nike trail is going to be there with two um shoes I think it's the wild horse and maybe a new version of the Kyger, I can't specifically remember. I was told this information I should have remembered. But, yeah, just expect to be able to try on two different new pairs of Nike trail shoe and I think you'll be able to take those with you on your group run, I believe.
Speaker 1:All that followed up and capped off with an amazing podcast with Bailey Kowalczyk, who's going to be our guest of honor. She is going to be on the pod for a live podcast in front of the audience at the Colorado Running Company, so we're so excited. I think it's going to be a really fun, action-packed day. Hope you guys can make it. Would love to see you all there. Cool, all right, very, very, very. Last and very, very not least, if you guys enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star rating review on Apple, spotify or YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts, if you really really enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and write why. On Apple, because that helps our discoverability on Apple on their platform and that would be amazing. Thanks so much, guys. I really appreciate it. Sorry for the long ramble and I hope to see you guys all on Saturday. Thank you.
