The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#81 - Dan Curts
From track star to mountain master, Dan Curts path to the pinnacle of sub-ultra trail running defies conventional wisdom. While many elite athletes flock to western training hubs like Boulder or Flagstaff, Kurtz has embraced the harsh New England winters and technical terrain of his Northeast home. "Four below this morning," he mentions casually, "but that teaches you something that has to translate to real mountain running."
After a collegiate career at Iowa State that left him questioning his relationship with running, Kurtz found renewed purpose in mountain races. Now a three-time Team USA representative who has competed at World Championships in Thailand and Innsbruck, he offers rare insights into the challenges and rewards of pursuing excellence on the trails. His candid discussion about breaking his toe in Thailand, rebuilding fitness through skiing, and preparing for the upcoming season reveals the unfiltered reality of professional trail running.
The conversation explores fascinating territory beyond racing, from van life and Brooks' emergence as perhaps "the best sub-ultra trail team on the planet" to the neurological aspects of race-day cramping. Kurtz makes a compelling case for the Northeast as an underappreciated training ground, suggesting that the increased presence of high-profile races like the Cirque Series might finally bring deserved attention to the region. With honest reflections on the pressure to make another World Championship team and admiration for innovators like Jack Kenzel and Jim Walmsley, this episode offers a window into the mind of an athlete operating at the cutting edge of mountain running's evolution.
Want to hear more from the athletes reshaping trail running? Subscribe to the Steep Stuff Podcast for conversations that go beyond the finish line into the heart of what makes this sport special.
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What's up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Loriello, and the stoke is high for today's episode. I am so excited to bring you guys an episode with none other than Dan Kurtz, by way of the Northeast. He's like a Vermont, new Hampshire, maine guy man. Dan is an amazing guy to have on the podcast. It was really fun having a chat with him.
Speaker 1:We did a deep dive into the sub-ultra scene and talked a lot about where the sport's at and where the sport's going. There was a lot of hot takes there and it was a blast to dive into. For those of you who don't know, dan is probably out of Iowa State, the most highly anticipated, highly touted prospect our sport has probably ever had on the sub-ultra scene. You're talking about someone with such talent coming from the tracks onto the trails, uh, and it's been amazing to kind of seen his career like blossom um over the last few years, as he's uh, you know, now made three team USAs and uh represented the United States at two worlds um, both in Chiang Mai, um as well as uh in Spruck, which was pretty crazy, crazy. We dove pretty deep into that. We talked about the pressure to perform as well as the pressure to make another world's team this year and to continue to produce. We did talk about his race back in 2023 at the Sunopee Scramble, where he took the dub and cemented his place to go over and represent Team USA at InSprook in the Mountain Classic.
Speaker 1:I refer always to Dan as the master of the mountain classic, which is my favorite kind of, my favorite distance, my favorite style of racing. It's kind of like that Cirque series up down, where it's like, you know, throw yourself up a mountain as hard as you can and throw yourself off that mountain as hard as you can. It's, it's a really fun style. Um, yeah, but we didn't just talk about that, um, we talked about Thailand. We talked about, uh, you know, some of the UTMB by Thailand, utmb races, um, that Dan had raced in the past few years, um, coming off of you know small injury from there and what it's like to train in the Northeast, um, versus like a place like Boulder, things like that. So, yeah, this was an awesome conversation. I honestly had a blast.
Speaker 1:This one lasted almost two hours and I am so excited we could have we could have made this four hours, so I'm stoked for part two. So, guys, without further ado, I hope you enjoy this one. Really have a lot of respect and admiration for someone like Dan. You know that's kind of he's competing at like the pinnacle of our sport and, yeah, just a really cool guy. So enjoy this one. It's time We'll be right back. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live People, earth. Listen up.
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Speaker 1:Right now, use code steep stuff pod for 25% off your cart. Again, like I said, use code steep stuff pod. Treat yourself to one of these. I think you guys are going to love them. I'd love to hear your feedback. Let me know what you think. Enjoy, dan Kurtz. Welcome to the steep stuff podcast. How's it going, man? Good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:Good man. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it. I um stoked that we were able to finally get this conversation going um. You know, I've listened to, oh man, probably both trail t episodes and, like quite a few of the episodes that you've been on with finn and I was just like I have to get this guy on to come talk sub ultra. So I'm glad we're able to do this um finally have a condo.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I'm very, very glad to be on here. Uh, obviously I love, love finn and uh, we need to have another trail t episode at some point but you're gonna tell him to bring it back.
Speaker 1:Man, I almost dm'd him the other day telling him to uh, like what happened?
Speaker 2:bring it back, get it going it's always everyone's schedule is always weird, and then jack's always somewhere odd in a, in a van, and everyone's just busy yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1:How's your uh, how's your winter going, man? How's uh, how's training, how's life?
Speaker 2:everything's been, uh, I guess full, full honesty, it's been a bit of a weird winter. Um broke my toe in thailand and since then um it's been. I figured it would be a couple weeks. I I wanted to take a good downtime post thailand because I was kind of reflecting and realized I hadn't really had a genuine downtime in quite a long time. Um, also, that was somewhat influenced by a podcast I'd listened to about just recovery and training and stuff. So um wanted to take a good bit of downtime and realized after a little bit that toe was still pretty jacked up, um, still very, very swollen after.
Speaker 2:You know, walking around, even so, give it a little more time. You know, walking around, even so, give it a little more time. Um, and honestly, I've only now just done my first workout, um, and it I mean it was like a baby workout um, but just been skiing. Um, I'm pretty horrible at skiing but we have really good ski access. I guess um, I can, you know I could get on snow right up the yard and head out for cross-country skiing and um, so that's pretty good. But that biking and getting back into running, um, I've I've run every day now for the last little bit, but nice, let's talk, toe.
Speaker 1:Man, which, which one did you break like? An important one or not so important one?
Speaker 2:Yes, second toe on my right foot, ouch, and I guess I haven't. Yeah, I guess easy to say I broke it. I would be very surprised if I didn't. I've broken a toe before and this seems exactly the same. It was huge and purple afterwards and what'd you do do?
Speaker 2:kick like kick a rocket during the race, or like yeah, it was kicked a kick, kicked a rope thing, um, but yeah, uh, it's been all right. It's been all right. I think the thing that worries me with something like that is just being an idiot and running through something that you shouldn't and then having a navicular stress fracture that is going to take you out for the next year. Um, so just trying to play that smart and remember that probably what I need to work on most is just general aerobic stuff. Um, I guess I don't feel like I'm losing a ton of time from like stuff like running economy on the trails yeah, that's fair dude.
Speaker 1:What was your experience like at thailand? Like I've only I've only known a couple athletes go and do some of the more longer stuff like the 100 mile, 100k races but like you ran, what was it the 50k like? What was that experience like? How was the course? What'd you think?
Speaker 2:um, it was interesting. So that's my third time in chiang mai now. Uh, worlds was there. And then I did this event last year. Um, it's kind of nice because it's right at the end of the year. Um, the last two years I've had a little travel budget to kind of you know use up at the end of the year. And then, um, I was also excited this year to, you know, bump up and try see what 50k is, kind of like. Um, so the trip was great. Um, I also it was like a bit of a just you know end of year.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I don't know, I had like a, had a breakup in the fall and then was just kind of like what's going on? Um, and yeah, so went out to thailand for like three weeks to kind of just get away from everything and be out there. And the last couple years I've really kicked myself, cause I don't know how to drive a motorcycle, but everyone's out there, you know, riding a motorcycle or moped or something. And, um, this year I was like screw it, like I'm just going to teach myself how, once I get out there, and uh, be able to actually go see the course and see the town and um bop around and have some freedom. Um, fantastic, yeah, it was unbelievably fun. Got to see, actually see the whole course. Well, uh, most of the course, the very back section is definitely tough to get to. Um, and then the course was great. I really liked it.
Speaker 1:Um, really, many bugs like spiders and shit oh my god, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:There was one day I saw nine spiders bigger than my phone yeah, no way, dude, oh my god like horrifying.
Speaker 2:Um, there's a bunch of really cool bugs and I mean, it's like I'm from maine, I feel like it couldn't be much different than thailand. Um, it's just such a different everything. Um, I'm like not super good when it's that sunny, I'm not super good when it's that hot. Um, everything's so different. Uh, but I really liked it. Yeah, crazy bugs everywhere. Um, you're always there's. They have, like you know, they have King Cobras, they have, you know, tarantulas, they have scorpions, they have, uh, asian water monitors or at least like more southern thailand and those are like those get to be, you know, like nine feet long.
Speaker 2:They're like it's like a dragon yeah, it's the second largest lizard in the world. It's basically, it looks just like a komodo dragon, it's just slightly smaller, um so crazy.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it was. It was really cool. Um, a couple weird bug things I guess did happen, like in the race. I realized I was, uh, one of my bottles kept being super spicy and I was like, what have I done with this? Like, I don't think I got anything on it, and I realized it was these ants that I was that were crawling on the bottle, right, because it's like, uh, all sugary. So the ants were all over the bottle. I guess they, they like, will drop from trees and stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, and I was just like munching ants for a while apparently um venomous ants or just like normal ants, like what was it like?
Speaker 2:I didn't do any. Uh, on course, id, but yeah, it was, it was interesting and they were like, but the only sensation I was getting was like spicy, so like, not super spicy, but just like something there. And yeah, it's weird, cause you start I don't know what. When did we start? Five and sunrise was like six, 40. The first like long chunk of the race. Um, you're in the jungle before sunrise.
Speaker 1:Um, wow, that's interesting, different for our 50. K too, like that's a very early start for 50 K.
Speaker 2:I think there was quite a bit of climbing and so people definitely take along. I don't I don't remember the exact stats on the course now because they changed the course last minute like four times, um, but there's a ton of people that go and do it, so I think for general public that makes more sense. Maybe Um, I was stoked about it cause it was made the race cooler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you think you'll take another crack at it or you think you're done with thailand? I mean, yeah, I guess at this point I don't have a real need to go back. Um, I really wished that race had gone slightly differently. But, um, I know chiang mai at this point, I know, like I know the area, um, I'd love to go do a similar concept of thing, like a far-flung, um not off-season race, but something where it's um kind of a different focal point than the rest of the season. Um, I'd love to do something like that.
Speaker 1:But but yeah yeah no, it's sweet. I mean dude, with travel budget, I feel like you can just go. You know there's like the world's your, you can go do whatever you want and go find you know new places to go explore.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah it's interesting I, I think, I think it's just been an interesting mix of and I mean honestly, like I just didn't do a great job with my travel budget last year, like I didn't, you know, ask for reimbursement for a handful of things that I could have, um, but I don't know, it's like I'm fine spending money to go to races, that's like, you know, funding the thing that I want to be doing is totally fine with me yeah, do what you love so yeah, I think the year before I definitely had travel budget because I dealt with like long covet um and just couldn't train or anything.
Speaker 2:So, um, that one I definitely had travel budget left over interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, dude, I think a lot of people know who you are in the sport. I mean, you've definitely been like one of the most accomplished, like well-known prospects to enter the sport in the last few years. Uh, first team all-american, like you know, amazing success both at the high school level and at the collegiate level. Maybe, if, if you wouldn't mind just give a little bit, just give me like the five minute elevator pitch of your background, so that way we can get that to the audience and then I'll move on to start talking about other things.
Speaker 2:Uh, where do you want me stopping?
Speaker 1:Uh, stop when we get to Brooks.
Speaker 2:Actually, no, no, no, stop just before Brooks just before brooks cool, um, yeah, so grew up in ellsworth, maine. Um, we, my family, lived in, uh, you know, closer to new hampshire when I was born, but we did. There was not a hospital there, so I ended up I was born in new hampshire but we lived in maine. So I don't know if that allows me to truly be a mainer, but, um, I can also also claim New Hampshire, so I'm good with that. Um. My parents divorced when I was young and then my mom, little brother and I um moved up to Ellsworth Um and uh, yeah, I guess um. Things were definitely challenging, things were tough um, but then ended up finding running and for me that definitely um was a place to focus too much energy. Um, so that very quickly I in middle school that became fully like the compass heading I guess Um I had. I was really really lucky. My uncle was a great high school coach Um, he had a handful of really really great athletes He'd coached um. Lou Lucchini was really important in my life, um is and so he had run it. He ran at my high school you know, really small town, like 5,000 people, maybe 7,000 now um and ran at Stanford and then ran professionally um, and so that was kind of my vision. I was like I don't know, I guess that's a way to get to college, it's a way to go do things that isn't here, um, and just glommed onto that and fully decided that, at least verbally, in sixth grade, um, but just kept plugging away at that and you kind of knew in high school what you had to do to, you know, get a scholarship to run division one. And then um ended up doing those things and um went to Iowa state. That was where I chose to go, um, I was really lucky to have pretty much pick of places to go, um and got a full ride.
Speaker 2:Um, and Iowa state was just a bizarre training program. Um, it would. I don't know. It would take a very long time to explain, but workouts, I would say, weren't workouts. Um, it was not that we were training hard, we weren't training high volume. Um, the like Kenyan team was separated from, like the American kids. It was very bizarre. Um would definitely get into it more, if that's of interest.
Speaker 2:But basically spent all of college really, um, kind of struggling with running. Things were going like pretty shit, but I was like talented enough to kind of eke out solid performances every once in a while, um, but yeah, college was just bad and, I think, definitely tested my um relationship with running. Um, I mean, I came in with a class of really really, really good athletes and no one stayed at the program except for me. Um, the same is true of the next several classes, except for one kid who's the athletic director's son? Um, so the program was just bad, um. Despite that, we did have some good successes on occasion, but a lot left to be desired training wise.
Speaker 2:So, graduated um, went home really frustrated and just did landscaping for the summer and um, in college, basically, your college coach coach helps you line up like what group you're going to go to. Well, what coach you're going to work with, like sponsor shit. Um, and he was just totally checked out um, he's not coaching anymore. He was just totally done with the program. Um, and so I was just kind of floating um and didn't know what to do. I know andy powell, who's the coach at washington now he was the coach at oregon, um, the pals are great. So I basically reached out to him. He had a small pro group.
Speaker 2:So I, you know, packed up my car. Um, I had a, like you know two thousand dollar volkswagen passat, uh, a little like 03, like standard, like it was great. I loved the car but packed everything up in that and drove out to seattle with my cousin and then trained out there for a handful of months and um had some really really great workouts, but I just wasn't there. I just couldn't totally be uh stoked about it. Um track I loved workouts, loved doing hard workouts, but um, just didn't mean to me, like mean anything to me, like running under four minutes or something like I just didn't care, didn't really do anything for me. Um, and then the trials were canceled for COVID and I moved home and then moved to New Hampshire to train with Ben true Um, and so this is all road track focus still and I'm just spending time doing that. And uh, the track stuff I was fine with as long as I was doing the workout for Ben Um, but when it came to like going and racing for myself, I just didn't care enough. It just wasn't like clicking Um, so basically ended up getting injured. At the same time my dad passed away and had like a really shitty handful of months and just uh needed like a course correction.
Speaker 2:And so loon mountain was like the vertical champs, which is, you know, just down the road from here, and ended up doing that. But it was that I kind of decided I wanted to try trails. It's always something I loved to do, just run in the woods and stuff, but I'd never had any distinction between running and trail and track and road, you know. So I did white face because it was classic champs at white face one weekend, loon the next one. Uh, white face was insane.
Speaker 2:Like in the third mile there was something like 16 or 1800 feet of climbing um in a mile and I was like not ready for that. I was really fit, but not fit for that um, and ended up getting in the gondola up top and coming back down um, so I like also talked myself out of the race. Uh, just really frustrated. And eric lapuma was like dude, what, you're just being an idiot. Like do loon next weekend. Because I was like gonna note, I was like trails suck, this is stupid. Like you know, really bummed um. So eric's like just do loon next weekend, you'll do great. Like uh, and it went well, um got second. And then all of a sudden I was like on a couple us teams for that race um, and so then that was like my first time going to um anywhere. That wasn't like a domestic race for a track event.
Speaker 1:At what point sorry to interrupt you, I'm just curious like at what point did you understand and start to realize that like, okay, not only can I'm, like trails are a thing, but like I can actually possibly make a career out of this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it was slowly putting it together. I think in college I was stuck, stuck in iowa, um, and was just going nuts, so I would literally just sit there, like you know, and my coach was very you know, c's get degrees like who cares about school, like let's just run. That also leaves you with a horrific amount of time to focus on and we on running, and if you're not training that much or that hard you're, you just have idle time, and so the whole time I was just like desperately watching anything that was like adventurous, outdoorsy, um, and so stuff like I got like really glommed on to like anything, um, climbing, um, any, anything that captured that. So then it was like you know, killian youtube videos, and it would just be on repeat, on repeat, on repeat, um, and so I kind of started getting a sense that there was this like other side of like athletic world that was more on the adventure spectrum than on the performance spectrum entirely, um, and I don't know.
Speaker 2:I just had like slow exposure, I guess, towards towards more trail stuff, um, and through social media I think I saw the direction that I feel like track and field and road are going, versus where trail was going um, and I see trail growing and I feel it's much more. Um, I don't know you can only get so many cool videos of you training on a track. It's so lame and you know that was like that was a struggle. It was like obviously to get to be a like paid athlete. A huge part of it is this, um, media side of things and I was like there's no chance. I want to post a video like it could be the prettiest dirt road, but it's still like kind of lame to only be posting that.
Speaker 2:And um, yeah, I guess somewhere in there I just kind of something in my head clicked that it is very clearly the direction of things. Um, um, it was watching broken arrow, I think, actually watching the day with um, cam and Eli and Kieran and um, you know, I just knew a handful of people in there and um, my Ben, my training partner, just gone down and won the U S champs on the road and uh, you know USATF isn't live streaming it from the truck driving in front of them. And then I'm watching a drone video of you know these guys running up um at Palisades and I'm like this is obviously the direction things will go, especially the social media. So um also, it's so much more me, so yeah interesting.
Speaker 1:So, dude, growing up in the northeast, like especially that vermont, new hampshire main area, like there's obviously a heavy influence for mountain running there's I mean not just mountain running but skiing, like just outdoorsy culture in general, yeah, you know, I I find that also interesting. Like that it's just kind of slept on as an area in my opinion and it's kind of bizarre to me that like there's cranmore, there's like so many solid like legit mountain races that are in the northeast and like no one talks about like how solid the northeast is. I find that weird.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. I mean obviously you know this is gonna get me going, um, but I mean it's also big. So, like I, you know everyone is like so I'm in New Hampshire right now, um, but in Maine I was. You know, I'm like five hours from here, um, and on the coast and, um, it's very different, like I'd never. I'd been to Vermont one time, um, the new England championships for cross country my freshman year were in Vermont, at Thetford. So it's just right up the road here, um, and you know I'd never been out here, um, I was always just like Maine's different for sure, like Northern Maine is definitely just like a different thing, um, but everything is small town. Um, I mean Vermont, like the biggest town is Burlington and the population like 35,000. Um, and Vermont has, you know, less people than Colorado Springs. Like it's weird. Um, yeah, like I think Vermont is like 620 K and I think the Springs like obviously there's like a bit of a, you know, metro area to things, but yeah, there's not a ton of people.
Speaker 2:I really like it. I love that there's winter, I love that everything's kind of rugged and a little hard, yeah, and it seems like everywhere is good access. I can run from literally my back door. Here is a rail trail that goes 65 miles one way and it's groomed ski trail right now for half of it. The other half is plowed. Um, and if I go you know any direction, I can get on a trail within it's. You know know, half a mile this way and then a mile if I go the kind of convoluted way into like a trail system with a 60 miles of trails that I could get on the at in there and head out like there's a bunch of stuff. Um, jeff colt is from here yeah, yeah, I know, joe um, yeah, his his dad lives just up the way really.
Speaker 1:Oh dude, I never realized that. That's kind of crazy. Noah williams yeah yeah, noah williams.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I worked. I did this, uh like volunteering with noah's mom, um, whatever she does like a it's kind of like a girls on the run kind of thing um, but for finding our stride. So it's a weird little area.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of connections to here yeah, to the trail space that's so wild man. So after so I I, from what I understand of your story after you were kind of just kind of sick of the tracks or kind of sick of the track you came back to the northeast to kind of start training there. What I want to understand is, like I mean, for someone like you and your caliber, like you could have had your pick right. You could have gone to Boulder, you could have gone to Flagstaff, you could have gone I don't know. So you could have stayed in Seattle and trained there and had, you know, there's it's like there's there's plenty of like training grounds that are not the Northeast. I'm just so curious as to why you chose that specific area to go back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean honestly. Right now I'm struggling with a similar concept. I think it's it's such a shame that more people don't train out here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But also I can get some of it. It's not what I like. Like it was four below this morning, not, you know, without you know not factoring in wind chill, not factoring anything. Four below this morning, not, you know, without you know, not factoring in wind chill, not factoring anything. Um, and I was, I was working outside all day and I was pumped because it was like 25 this afternoon and sunny and it was like that felt, you know, decently warm and like you look at the weather in boulder and it's, you know, been 65 for a handful of days and, um, you are like I can see how that seems to be better training and I think if you don't grow up out this way, it's really tough Because, I mean, you can love the winter, but it's it is just like long and it doesn't get warm.
Speaker 2:If it gets 40, it's like a really warm day right now. We've, yeah, it's been above freezing twice in the last you know handful of weeks, um, so I don't know, I'm not sure entirely what it is. I think it more people should be out here. Um, the quality of like this is such a stupid one, but like dirt roads, the dirt roads here are fantastic, um, and the trails are steep, uh, like there's so many things that you can find that are a thousand feet a mile, um, and in the summer there's a ton of ski resorts and so everything you can. You get all this grassy, steep access so it's like runnable, um. But stuff like the shoulder seasons are tough, like early winter is really tough because all the trails are pure ice, like it's. It's pretty hellacious, like it's so bad, um, but I don't know. I think that also teaches you something that has to translate to real mountain running.
Speaker 1:Makes you gritty, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:And I think, like, I guess, if, if it's all like Eurocentric, I think that has to teach you something. I think it's probably more similar to stuff in europe, um, and I think I don't know, there are races where it's snowy in austria, worlds last year, you know, two years ago now, um, for this coming year, um, there's snow on the course, there's, there's shit, um, but I shit, but I think it's good, but you lose out, I think, on a bit of marketing, it seems. It seems like the market strays west of here.
Speaker 1:Yes, where I'm kind of going with this with Brooks.
Speaker 2:I think it's a miss Big time dude, the number of people that come up from new york, new jersey, boston, like these huge population centers that come up here and you know, you see, they're always out. Um, yeah, so it's. It's weird to me that, like well brooks, we just signed remy um, but him and I are the only people east of boulder um, just bananas.
Speaker 1:Like there's so much talent, like in a lot of these areas. It's crazy to me that I listen. I asked tom hooper the same question and one of the answers he gave me was shoe durability, which I think is is definitely a factor. I think that's one small factor. It was like can their shoes hold up? I think there's a lot more to the fact where, like I think these brands, for instance, like la sportiva is a great example, like in in boulder, right, and yeah, a lot, and there's a good amount of brands in boulder or in the greater colorado area um, obviously brooks and seattle, and I think there's, I wouldn't say bias of like region, but I almost think it's like bias of region just because they're there, it's local, it's easier to see these athletes, it's more I don't know whereas, like, there's not a lot on the east coast. What is there? I think there's vibram in boston and that might be one of the few, and I think janji in boston as well there's not a new balance in puma.
Speaker 2:There's, yes, yes, often ties, but but yeah, those aren't trail specific brands. Um, it is weird. I don't entirely get it, and I do think there's some amount of you know. Um, I don't know if, if it just feels like it's separated bit and so I think it's not like checked out as much. It's not like there's some, there's something about it that seems like less sexy or something. Yeah, and I think that it's interesting. Yeah, I don't, I don't have it totally figured out. Um, I would absolutely love if more people were training out here, cause right now, like Ben is like transitioned out of like being a professional athlete. He's coaching, he's still running a hundred mile weeks and is still disgustingly fit, but, um, I don't really have anyone I'm training with.
Speaker 1:Well, Eric's kind of doing super long stuff right.
Speaker 2:So it's a little bit different. I would imagine eric's tough to line up with. I hope he listens to this because he's he's just tough to. He's tough to line up with, like he's very particular on timing and you know how long you'll leave the house for and stuff which I get um david sinclair's out here now. But he's also a bit of like a loner, like lone wolf guy, like just trains on his own.
Speaker 1:Um plus his ski stuff. I think he's now in and out of europe for yeah yeah, which kind of makes it complicated?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, so it's, it's interesting. If there were more people out here training, I would. I mean, I would, I obviously wouldn't go anywhere. But and then everyone, it's always a place that people like, oh, definitely where I'm gonna have kids. But I think like that mindset keeps that community from being built. Um, and then it's not somewhere people want to stay from 25 to 35 or something. Yeah, so it's, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:But I mean the density of trails and like good access and ease of stuff, like we always complain about, like J peak has, it's Northern Vermont. They get dumped on, um, they get whatever their whole thing is. They've got more snow than like everything in Colorado and California. Like they, they just get dumped on all the time but it's two hours away and so we always complain about how far away it is. But then we, we also, like I start looking at stuff and I'm like, well, that's, that's no farther than if you live in Boulder to go to, like normal stuff, and I'm like, oh well, we have, you know, killington and stuff. Like we, we are close to stuff, um, even Boston's, you know, two hours from being properly in the whites, uh, so that's amazing too.
Speaker 1:I never even thought about that yeah, so it's really not bad.
Speaker 2:So I don't, I don't totally get it. There's some disconnect that I hope gets fixed at some point. But I guess, hoping it gets fixed, it probably is like on eric and I and tom I've got a theory, dude.
Speaker 1:I think it's going to change sooner than you think and the reason is is because, like, first of all, you see era vipa going by, what was a white mountain endurance, so now they have a presence there, so there are races. But I think this year, with the circ series having two races there, like I'm happy julian, like expanded and I think, all right now sub, now like real sub ultra, has a presence there where it's like you know, plus you've got, you know, tom with suna p and loon. Those are usually, you know, either vertical or up down mountain running championships. You know, on off years and even last year we had loon. So I don't know, I think the presence with circ series coming in, I think that's going to attract, I mean, what is that? Like 600 to 700 people race, so race.
Speaker 1:So if Julian usually fills those rosters anyway, you'll start to maybe turn heads. I mean I'm curious to see, like I'll be out there for both of those, and I am very curious to see, like all right, who shows up to these, like is it going to be the East Coast Crushers? Like are people going to come from the West to go see what it's like out here, so to go see what it's like out here. So I don't know, I I would be really excited to see more world-class competition come out to go race at those races and make it, you know, because they're exciting courses, so it should be fun it's, it's interesting, and I think it may be just like an issue of marketing or something um, because stuff like mount washington road race yeah, yeah that's a weird crossover mountain world road race event, um.
Speaker 2:It's like epic super classic, like super cool, um, but I think it's like fallen out of favor in the last. I don't know, I'm not a good enough historian of that race, um, but it seems to have fallen out of favor from what it was for a while and I'm just curious if that's like a social media effect or or what it is um could be, but I say the same thing about pikes out here like I love hikes and like but when golden trail series leaves, like it becomes I wouldn't say like it's more grassrootsy vibe, but it definitely goes back to that like obviously it's not going to have the elite field that, like you're going to attract with a golden trail series races because it's different.
Speaker 1:So it could be social media plus. You know that's something that needs to get bolstered from a lot of these races if you want to grow in this day and age. Like social media is a huge thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I, I guess there's there's a part of me that really wants to stick around and just like that really wants to stick around and just like post a ton of cool videos of just you know being in the mountains here, cause I think a lot of people would be kind of surprised, cause there's, there's shit on that topic.
Speaker 1:I meant to ask you this. I had this written down on your Instagram. You have this one video of was it Talon that almost fell? Somebody almost falling dude it got like 16 million views. Holy shit, that almost fell somebody, almost falling dude. It got like 16 million views.
Speaker 2:Holy shit, I think we're like almost at 17 million views. Um, I mean it was sketchy, but it wasn't. I didn't feel like it was that bad. Um, and talent, I mean talon's done that bridge a ton, a ton of times. Um, in the snow, I've done it. The only time I'd done it was in the snow. Um, when I was supposed to be taking off time, when I was training out in Seattle, uh, but I was like in Seattle, no winter, like looking at the mountains, being like I need to be in the snow, um, but yeah, so yeah, that that video just blew up. I think people were pissed off that we were up there and, uh, what they thought, know, like nike pegasus or something, um, so you got like a. You hit that like instagram weird world where people were like pissed off and like telling us that hey, I hike every weekend and you guys are being idiots. It was stuff like that.
Speaker 1:You know that's interesting. I mean, I can't like believe the virality of it, like that's. That's see, I would imagine you would have gotten thousands of what do you have? A few thousand followers or something like that. I would imagine you would have gotten 5,000 followers out of that and I was like, huh, all right, this changes everything I thought about the algorithm. That's so weird.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting, and but then it did prove to me in some way. It was like cause, that was like a normal thing, but I think, I think you end up being in a weird bubble, um, that you go out and do these cool things that do seem super sketchy to people, and so if you were able, if you were to like just post those things more often, I think it would be pretty successful with that, oh for sure.
Speaker 1:For sure. Plus, like I don't know, sub ultra scene Northeast there's a lot of Rocky outcrop, I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of opportunity there to tell like really solid stories on, like not just training, but just like everything you're doing. You know there's a lot of opportunities there.
Speaker 2:I really wanted. There's a couple little projects I really want to do that way, I think doing stuff, um, and I don't know, maybe maybe it's this year, maybe it's next year, um, but stuff like katahdin doing like ascent and round trip, trying to go for like ascent and round trip records at katahdin um, and having some amount of video um project with this, doing the same for washington, um, maybe Stowe, I mean Mansfield, um, you know, like the high peaks, the high points in the states um, maine, new Hampshire, vermont, um, because something like Katahdin is incredibly cool, um, really really really cool, as cool as anything in the lower 48, like it's sweet, um, but I think that would be. That would be a cool way to showcase things, to have it be like. It lends itself well to like intense and short efforts that are relatively short, right, um, that are rocky and, you know, a little sketchy and well, dude, this is, you're on to something really great here.
Speaker 1:So, like, this is something I talk to everybody about and it drives me crazy because I feel like ultra does such a good job at videos and storytelling and being able to convey this like different degree of suffering, whereas, like on the sub ultra side, like I feel like and I'll say we, because I'm, you know, from a media perspective, like that's, that's the area I want to take this is like we need to tell more stories because it's obviously it's competitive, but in a different way, it's more, it's a faster sport, it's a different sport, like you, there's a lot more to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think we need to do a better job at storytelling getting ready for these races or doing these, maybe these FKTs or high points or things like that that are more up down or vertical related, where you know it's a 30 minute to an hour and a half effort or something like that. Um, golden trail series nails it, you know, like their races and their storytelling is amazing, um, but yeah, we need more of that. I feel like in the sport to be able to uh, just, I don't know make, just leak, make sub ultra more competitive with ultra when it comes to uh from a media side I think it.
Speaker 2:This is entirely my bias speaking. I think it will be. It's certainly more easily. I don't. In my opinion, it's so much easier to like craft a really sexy 15 second trail video of someone ripping on something cool. Um. There's this one of killian at limon sky race. That I think is the coolest video possible, where it's like a helicopter filming this like ridge that he's flying down. It's just so cool, um, but yeah, I guess where would you think that starts?
Speaker 1:for me specifically. So my, my baseline storytelling would be so, like, for instance, like this year, what I would like to do and I haven't proposed this yet, this has been in the back of my mind since, like for the last like three weeks is getting a sponsor to help fund or just self funding, like, for instance, like Joe, like I'm pretty close with Joe, he's getting ready for he's got a couple worlds qualifier. He's just, I think he's just going to the ascent right, but like the like a couple different like workouts that he does, and being able to tell the story of this 41 year old guy who's been at the top of the sport for you know, as long as he's been to be able, and now he's gonna go for his.
Speaker 1:I don't like.
Speaker 1:I can't even tell you yeah, like 1000th, like a world that he's trying to qualify for. So like storytelling from that end. I think it starts with you know, cause it. You know showing the father, you know showing the husband, showing the, you know everything. He is just like outside and maybe he's he'll listen to this. So I gotta I haven't pitched it to him yet, but you know, like storytelling from that end, like filming a couple workouts and getting clips of that and then like the like, the some of the key things, like the key peaks, as he starts to get more specific, getting ready for the race and then, you know, maybe we'll be a broken arrow and we'll get some clips of whatever that turns out to be like right and then putting together like a short film and I think something like that, specifically for him.
Speaker 1:And then for you know, for somebody like you, it's just as easy, dude, like the grind, the struggle, the process through. You know, especially through the winter, and how horrible that feels. You know to be able to have to go get your ass out the door every day, especially with a broken toe. And then you know, kind of taking that one step further into the spring as you get ready for soon to pee and those other goals. You know I guess you'll go out. If you want to get more specific, you'll go out and play on the course a bit, and I don't know like little things like that, and then race day, what that looks like. I just think there's so many opportunities to really convey in a positive, like exciting way these stories and like what these athletes are getting ready for. And you know all that like, dude, and the day-to-day too, man, like time in the gym. You know it's not just spending time on the trails and running, it's like you know what are you doing for your diet? Are you eating correctly?
Speaker 2:like there's so many little things that go into it that you can yeah kind of spin off, you know I think I do a poor job of that. I, I would love to and I I have a ton of ideas on a ton of ideas and I just like don't have the.
Speaker 2:I haven't done like the follow-through with posting it, because posting is just so tough uh it's a lot of work, man, to do all that stuff like yeah, but I'm also sitting on freaking hundreds of hours of video that I've taken on my gopro and stuff but I just don't, I just don't do anything with, because it's like you look at it and then you're like, oh, it's not great, and then you're like I'm not posting it. I wasn't going to post that video of talent at all and he was like. He was like I'm about to post it. If you don't post it, I'm going to. He's like just put it up. I was like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 1:Sure Shit. It gets 17 million views. That's so crazy.
Speaker 2:I mean it has like. I don't remember what it was, but it was like 400 000 shares, like some bizarre.
Speaker 1:I guess I have it here uh, even piggyback on that too, like dude, like even the sexy stuff as well, like look at that photo. Finish between elhazine and philemon.
Speaker 2:Uh yeah, at the end of like uh headlands, like that's crazy, that was philemon yeah, was it philemon?
Speaker 1:yeah, so like shit like that. That. I think, just like there's just a lot of and or even dude like the Ed mammoth, like there was a, the whole controversy thing with all who's seen, kind of edging, and I was like God damn, like this is a, this is so crazy. So there's just like all these different and you can even create storylines around that too.
Speaker 2:Like Tim Tolson. I think he was pretty funny in the comments he's like I hate to be the race director of that Like, um, yeah, that was funny. I remember seeing that You're right. And I think now, like thinking about it, it's just, I think you like end up being so much in your own bubble that you'd forget that you're doing a weird thing. And then, like I think there's like a certain ego to posting that. You're like what I'm doing is special and cool and I need to post about it. And then I'm usually I'm thinking the exact opposite. Usually I'm like, oh, my god, what this person's doing is so special and cool and it's not me. But then I guess I do like, if I'm thinking about it before you know, once it's in the summer, like I really like going to, uh, whale back.
Speaker 2:It's this little local ski resort right here, um, it's five minute drive from the house and they have this lift line that's right. From the parking lot you go up and it's just like this 700 foot pitch. That's like so steep and I would just you know, and it's all. It's like four foot deep ferns, five feet deep, like it's just jesus, hilarious. But then I would just walk up and I would go in the rain, Cause I was like I want this to be stupid, like I want this to be really hard. So I'm going to hike up and I'm just going to try to see if I can just run down, and I'm just going to do that for a handful of laps in the rain where it's like it's impossible. It's impossible to do so, stuff like that. I think I guess that is weird and would probably be a kind of cool little video.
Speaker 1:And I talk about this a lot I think there's not a lot of people like Rachel Tomgiak. I think in her own way does it really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she started doing a good job.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. Yeah, and maybe Ali Ostrander is another example where it's more, but I think it's become more of the borderline influencer thing. It's weird, though, dude Cause, like as an athlete, it's like, yeah, your job is somewhat social media, but, like, your job is also train your ass off and show up to, you know, show up to events and do the perform to the best you possibly can.
Speaker 1:And it's like I don't know. It's this weird dichotomy where I don't know like I can see myself and you get so focused on the goal and what you want to do and that's performance related. Where it's like I also feel from my perspective, like if I'm trying to convey a story, sometimes it's hard because you don't. You also don't want to come across like, oh, am I just making this all about me? Am I being grandiose? Like how you know, like I don't want people to. You don't want to be judged in a weird way, which I think that's probably shouldn't be thought about, but it is. It's kind of a strange thing thinking about it from the social media perspective too, whereas, like, if you just tell the story the right way, that's your organic story, I think it could be like really popular, especially, like I said, from the sub ultra side, to be able to tell it it's's, it's cool stuff yeah, and I mean the people that do really well on social media do kind of have a bit of that ego, it seems.
Speaker 2:It seems like that's a positive um correlation with being able to do well on instagram. Um, I don't know it's. It is interesting, yeah, and I mean like it's weird because it is your job, like you're totally right, like that is a big part of the job, like you have to show up. I think the weird thing that happens with that I have seen for myself and a couple other people is you follow like your peers and then people that are doing shit that you wish you were doing as well, yeah, and so then you're in this bubble of this like bizarre spot where everything you see on instagram is like the weirdest 40 people that are doing all weird stuff that is better than you or as good as you, and and you're like you become like convinced of you know what you're doing is just super normal and like why would you ever post about like that dinky little workout I'm talking about because someone's doing something gnarlier?
Speaker 1:um on that topic. Did you know who's got a great youtube channel is actually remy larue. Like I was, I just had him on the other day and he's great, getting ready for the episode and I stumbled upon his um, yeah, dude, I stumbled upon his youtube channel. I was like, oh my god, like this is, this is amazing, like this is the storytelling we need more of. And he's like pretty candid with like being open about some of the workouts that he does. He's even like gone to a few races and like has like this epic battle at breakneck between like max and yeah, max and david hedges. Yeah, it's so good. So, yeah, I think there's definitely a space for but it is. It's interesting that, like who you follow and who you're around and who you're influenced by, I think influences like like some of your take on it too as well yeah, and then, like my, my buddy here, my, my one of my best friends here is ansel dickie, who made that walmsley.
Speaker 2:yeah, um, like he, he lives just down the road like I, you know, it's like stuff like that, it's like you just start existing in like this weird bubble. Um, and so then, anything like like I have a couple videos on youtube now and I do want to, I very much want to build that out this year. Um, I feel like I'm deferring it a bit and like putting it off, but, um, I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to post a video, like Ansel's going to go watch that and he's going to be like what is this? And I'm like, well, yeah, I suck at this, compared to Ansel, obviously, or most people, to be weird, the self-doubt.
Speaker 1:I can get that from the podcasting perspective too. Dude, like I'll sometimes, I've asked finn a couple questions and I'm like this is a really dumb question, but I need to know like what? Like what do I do here? Like what is this? I don't know, it's there's only one way to learn and there's only one way to improve.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like anything so yeah, I've, I can do a good job on that when it's just me like I'm doing a bunch of stuff right now in the van. Today I, you know, had to replace all the glow plug connectors, which I have no idea how to do. But you just like go through it slowly and, like you know, you snip all the cables, you rip off all the connectors, you like do all these like it's all simple stuff. It's just like going in having no idea how to do it. I'm fine like messing up solo, but like feeling like you're messing up publicly is another one that I just struggle with.
Speaker 1:Let's talk van. So like are you outfitting the van to like go all over the country this year? Like, what's, what's your plan with the van?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the goal. Um, the last two years I've had uh, an 85, uh like diesel van Um, an 85, uh like diesel van um, and it's old, and the first thing I did was I, when I bought it, was I drove it up to maine, was up there for a week, um, put in like soldered in a little like faucet, put in a little sink like got in like some basic stuff, um, but it's just so much work. It was so much work to do, like all the little maintenance stuff, and I just we drove it right out the flagstaff, spent the winter out in flag and new mexico up at santa fe, and then drove it back for that sunopee championship um, and it was great. But I was in, I was out of the van with my buddy and like you had to cook, like on your knees, like you couldn't stand in the van at all. It was like way too small, it was like not great.
Speaker 2:I had the a bunch of shit go wrong all the time with it because I didn't know what I was doing. But I really wanted to be doing it and so I was just kind of going and trying um, but you know, everything went wrong that could have, um, and so now I bought a van and got a really good deal on a you know old uh oh, seven sprinter. Um, I can stand up in it, put a bed in it, put some cabinets in there, did the flooring, did the installation, um, and now I'm doing some mechanical stuff. The hood's open right now and I've got the turbo intake all apart and I'm trying to put in whatever.
Speaker 2:So, doing some of that stuff, that's been most of the days and, you know, hopefully get out to Colorado this weekend, oh shit, really, train out there for a couple of weeks, yeah, and then I'm planning on racing big alta, okay, like the 25k, yeah, so that's in three weeks to 20 days actually, from today, um, and yeah, so that's the goal basically start bouncing around out of that um, and yeah, ideally have this for a handful of years. Um, just spent a bunch of money getting it fixed up, and so now I have no money, um, and I'm gonna have to live really cheaply hey, dude, I feel your pain.
Speaker 1:I just bought a house and uh, yup, sucks being broke, not that fun I'm gonna definitely have to.
Speaker 2:I hope. I hope it's less tight than uh two years ago. Um, basically, I went into sunopee and if I didn't win I was pretty hosed um, like entirely hosed. So so, yeah, hope it's hopefully not go that thin this year okay, all right, let's let's talk.
Speaker 1:I want to get into. Um, well, you kind of already told I was going to ask you about the big alta, especially like with that coming up. It's only in a few weeks, I'm sure like that's gonna be a sweet race. That area is beautiful. I know you're on the start list for soon to be as well, but like what do you got planned for the rest of the season?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so definitely that Sunapee cannon double. That's awesome Sweet. My cousin's getting married on the day of the Killington race up in Maine, so I'm trying to see if I can do the Killington race. I don't know what. What's the start time?
Speaker 1:If it's like an 8am race, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's 10 done at 11. You could?
Speaker 1:do it. Yeah, I mean it's a fast race. I mean it's it's, it's that's I probably be take less than an hour or an hour on the dot. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm gonna have to really see on timing on that, and then what timing the wedding is and stuff. I'd love to be there and then drive up to maine, um, but I can't miss the wedding, um. So, uh, yeah, the early season, basically that's what I want to do through june, um you're, so you're not going to broken arrow this year. No, it's kind of a weird like I have a bit of a gripe with a selection race being at altitude Okay.
Speaker 2:No, I agree I agree with um, I think that's a weird move. Um, the world isn't at altitude. What's the thing? Um, and so that I'm a little against and, but, but also like I don't know, I I much prefer the classic race. I don't really have any interest in vertical races, um, and I think I'd like to graduate, maybe towards. I was really thinking about doing the 42 K, attempting the short trail team for worlds. It doesn't line up in a way that makes sense for me to do. I think, um, I think, to be ready to rock, cause you're going to have to be so good to make the world's team this year, um, it's going to be, yeah, disgusting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you can start. You can start naming the long, the short, the vertical, the classic, like you're like. Oh, okay, yeah it's, it's pretty serious. Um, really, really, really good, people aren't going and so, yeah, I can't go out to Broken Arrow, not adjusted for altitude, because I would sacrifice the classic race that way, and the classic race is more important to me If the race was a different place, if the race was out here for the qualifier, I would do the double and see what happens. But I think it just weighing things out, I think it didn't make as much sense.
Speaker 1:I agree with you, man, I think, and I think your background and everything like that, especially living so like not that far away, like you can get reps on the Soonapy course. I don't know. I just feel like all that you could do, all of the little things to ensure yourself a spot on that Soonapy course, like to ensure yourself a spot on that soon to be course. Like to ensure sorry, to ensure yourself a spot like on that team, as opposed to so, for instance, like Christian Christian's got to come out from Utah, he's probably not going to come out early. Yes, the altitude, like might help him a little bit, but, like power generation, there's a lot more to it. And also knowing that course so well and if it's a matter of a few seconds like, however quick, like close that race is going to be, it definitely helps to be on your side, to be out there more you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I mean genuine canopy is uh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You've had success out there too, and you know well it's also like I mean, it's literally like two or three exits down the highway. Yeah, it's really close. Um, so I don't know. It just means something to me. I love that it's out here. Um, I think, like the earlier points, of like there's less, uh, focus. Out here it's like yeah, I want I wish people had come to that Kismet cliff race last year. Um, I wish, um, yeah, I want I wish people had come to that kismet cliff race last year. Um, I wish christian came out for something like that, like a half marathon with you know, not a bunch of climbing, but all that's super technical. It was like a half marathon, like 4500 feet and it's all really technical. Uh, I think I ran super quick. I don't know, maybe I didn't, but I wish people came out for that stuff um, I know, I feel the same way, dude.
Speaker 1:Like more competition in these races like would make I don't know. Like like the only thing you could do is open your mouth and like try and invite people, I don't know, yeah I mean, son of p, that that's just gonna happen.
Speaker 2:um, and obviously I want someone like christian to come out anyway, because I hope to be on the team and I want that team to be as good as possible. Oh, hell, yeah, yeah. So stuff like that I'm pumped for. I do like the two lap concept.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, but I think I've found decent success at that. I think that race I did up in Canada the Canadian champs for this this year um was solid because it was that same idea, um. So, yeah, I'm pumped for that race. That's kind of like a lot of the focus and then I want to do like ETC.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, sweet.
Speaker 2:Um, I want to be out there, just to be out there. Um, and then I want to uh, just figure out. The schedule is tough. The schedule is tough, man, Like I'm not good to go to race broke race, the golden trail stuff yet in Asia. Um, I have my own personal gripes about golden trail. Um, I wish there was more doping control. I wish there was.
Speaker 1:I got that written down. We're going to get to doping control, all right, all right.
Speaker 2:We can back to that, but but yeah, still trying to figure out like the second half of the season. But the big goals um are making the world team, um and showing up in spain, um and hopefully, you know, getting closer to where I feel like I should be let me ask you a question and you can answer this as candidly as you'd like.
Speaker 1:if not, I can cut this out. I'm just curious for someone like at your level, just because, like you are at the tip of the spear and you've made now what. You went to Thailand, you went to Innsbruck and you was was a challenge to Lena. You also race for team USA, yeah, so like you've represented the stars and stripes for a while now, do you?
Speaker 2:feel pressure to like have to make this one happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's a race. There's always pressure um to to. I mean hell, there was, there was. I felt there was so much pressure when the race was at Sunapee. Um, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of pressure in my head, I think that's great.
Speaker 1:I mean shit, you did it at sunupy, so like you can do it.
Speaker 2:So that's yeah, it answers your own question there but but yeah, like I, I think there was certain parts of that course that helped me a lot on that day um, like icy and snowy up high and then like really muddy and funky and the descent. Um, and I had been out in Flagstaff intentionally just running on the dumbest things I could every day because I knew the race was going to be messed up Cause my, my buddy, matt, was skiing there and he was like dude, the race is in two weeks and I'm skiing glades at Sunapee, like there's a ton of snow. I don't know how this is not going to be really messed up. Um, so like, okay, okay, cool, like, so I'm going to go up to snowball every day and just run in the snow. Um, I did.
Speaker 2:I did one workout where I was doing like uphill reps and then I was supposed to do like two downhill reps and the one downhill rep, um, I had I don't remember what it was, it was a mile mile and a, it was a 2k wrap that I did under five minutes. Coming back down it was like 356 average on the on the on the ski hill. It was stupid. My hamstrings were destroyed for three days, but but yeah, nice, I was definitely in my head about that, because it was S, summer, p and like it's here, I live right here and I feel like that's the event I'm good at, and so it's like, yeah, definitely pressure dude, I can't wait to follow the race, like I.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm going to be racing or being there. Like I'll be there, but I don't know if it's going to be in a racing capacity or in a media capacity probably more media, just because I feel like this race deserves the coverage that it needs to get. Um, so doing justice on that end, like, is really important to me. So yeah, I don't know it's gonna be. I'm excited for just the both that, like I said, the men's field is pretty stacked, the women's field's growing. Like it's gonna be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, soon to be is gonna be dope, yeah I mean you start putting together the women's race too. It's like rachel to my check grayson, grayson, murphy, alley um, alley m alley o on a lauren like there's a it's bananas yeah, you can name a bunch of really, really good people that should make the team and they can't all make the team. Let me ask you this?
Speaker 1:I should know this it's. Is it two spots that come out of soon ap on two, two men, women, and then the rest of its resume? Or is this just horrible and I?
Speaker 2:hope. You don't know, but I think.
Speaker 2:Tom told me and I totally forgot the other day he said top four to me in passing, which didn't sound right. No, the team has been three, but Thailand was weird because joe was a returning world champ. Yep, so there's like weird stuff that way. Um, I'd assume we get three spots and an alternate. We have to have like an alternate, but usually the way that we do that is we pull from the vertical team because they usually are crossed over, um, but then there's people who aren't a great alternate for a classic team, who would make a vertical team um, I mean, I mean, this is just.
Speaker 1:This is really speaking out of my ass. But, like, let's say, your vertical team, I don't know someone like cam smith. Yeah, I'm smith, I love cam smith.
Speaker 2:but if it's a fast classic race he's not as good as he is at a vertical race, um, and so it's possible at the classic race he could get sixth. I don't know um, whereas it's, I'd say it's entirely likely he wins outright in the vertical race, um, and like I mean same with me, like I feel like I'm better at the classic race but it's I might not be that good in the vertical race. Um, they're not one for one, they select for different things, um, so so yeah, it's interesting, like I mean freaking. There's a bunch of examples like that. So I'm sorry for kind of calling out cam.
Speaker 1:I love cam no no, no, no, I think you're're dude, I think you're spot on, and to that point I mean who knows what's going to happen with, I mean, the point I was going to make too, and I was going to wait to make this until I make. Do my predictions like, uh, when I actually do the prediction, like thing down the line? But like david sinclair camp, a lot of these guys are coming off schemo seasons where it's olympic selection year. So it's like how does that play into it? Are these, these guys going to be racing schema like late into the season?
Speaker 1:And like yeah, I don't know how that's going to play into it, so I don't know. I mean, we all know like cam shows up to play. Obviously David Sinclair does too.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be, it's really interesting for something like the vertical race, where it's like I don't know how negatively that would impact you. Like if you're a really good skier, you you're going to carry in a ton of fitness and it's an uphill race, you don't need to be fast like flat run. Like when we were in Thailand. Um, the race was going to go out really quick and we were talking about who's going to be on the classic team and Cam was like, uh, yeah, I mean I don't know if I could run a mile under five minutes right now. Minutes right now. Um, interesting, but in the vertical race he's gonna be freaking great. He's really good at that, but it's, it's, it's just a. It'll be really cool, I think, in like three worlds teams from now, because I think those teams will be even more different. Um, because a guy who is really nasty at climbing is probably not as good at descending as he is climbing.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's more specialization, for sure, and you're starting to see it like you, I'm sure you knew like henry alamond is like he he's I think he's a north face athlete dude. That guy is so nasty in the vk, won the kmv this past year top five time like all all time on the segment I can't remember what time he ran, but like you could say he's a. He's a pure vk specialist, like pure uphill specialist. Definitely his strength, yeah, yeah. So it's. It's going to be interesting as we start to see like more specialization and that, like even joe, like in some of those guys like joe has no comrade canopy.
Speaker 2:What the heck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, we should, I do. He should be out there, he's so all right. So this is my question and like I said I I can cut some of the stuff out if you don't feel candid talking about. I am so curious to see the way you think, especially without going to broken arrow. Well, how do you think that ascent race is going to play out like dude I think remy bonet is in town and that that golden trail series race is not going to be until sunday? I would imagine he'll probably do the ascent as well.
Speaker 2:Then you get a joe rematch, I mean what a power move to come like. Try to dominate the us selection race. That's kind of. If he does that, that's a baller move, um he might do.
Speaker 1:Plus, patrick is going to be in town because it'll be a um, a wrma race, so you'll probably get patrick and philomon. It's gonna be bananas like up front. You'll have remy larue um yeah, just like.
Speaker 2:I mean remy won't go out with those guys. Remy always race is really smart. I think remy is gonna lay off it like that race is gonna be nuts, um, and I think jim's in there too, like he's in the dk. Yeah, I don't know what to expect out of that bananas like crazy.
Speaker 2:Jim has spent more time doing steep climbs than most of the american guys, so I think that's what like he's gotten. I mean, he's a very, very, very good athlete and I think he's gotten incredibly good at really steep terrain, uh. So it's like, how do you bet against him? But how do you against cam or joe, um, who are probably, I guess no, I don't know who you would pick. Due to the elevation, like am cam's, like a smaller guy than joe, that could maybe help it. Altitude, uh, if it's high enough, I don't know. There's, there's a ton of factors. I think that race is going to be. Yeah, like you said, if, if the uh foreign guys are all there, it's going to go out really freaking fast and there's going to be some big casualties carnage yeah plus mika, like your teammate, I'm sure he'll be there.
Speaker 1:Taylor stack, he's going for it for sure. A contingent is so deep. Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's, it's going to be. Yeah, I mean, dude, there's a possibility like that might be outside of, like 2023, pikes ascent that might be the most competitive race ever assembled on American soil, like from an ITRA perspective. I want to pivot a little bit to brooks and because the question I have for you, especially with the signings they made this year like picking up remy uh, you got taylor stack, sydney peterson, like there's been quite a few signings my question to you is is brooks the best trail, like the best sub ultra trail team on the planet right now? Because I think they are.
Speaker 2:I think they're pretty good. Um, I think talon is very good. I think he's got a. I think he hasn't had a ton of races where he's shown how good he is yet. Um, he's super good. Mika's obviously done a good job showing how good he is. Um, yeah, I don't know that you start. You can start naming people and now, like, I think the next couple years, it's gonna be shown a bit. I think the team we're building is really cool and, um, we're doing a team camp at the end of the month, uh, in seattle, so I'm pumped to meet all the new people.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah, I've really liked working with brooks. Um, I'm paid to say that as well, to be fair, but I really I have really liked them. Um, I think the shoes have the thing I was. Initially, when I signed on, I was a little worried about what the shoes were like. I didn't feel like there was much. I would want to run in out here, um, but good lord, like the trail shoes have come so far around and now I'm like the gil, I think is perfect for the little like, uh, us style, like classic style races. Yeah, I'm really excited about it all. I think it's all. They're investing a lot. I mean, I think it's all the right directions.
Speaker 1:Sorry, no, I was just gonna say from an itcher perspective, like I I haven't done the like the public math yet, but like I think, if you were to sit down and break down interest scores and indexes, like I do think you guys actually have the best sub-alter, like, just by the numbers, the best sub ultra trail team on the planet right now, because solomon's pretty small now, like you know some brands what happened?
Speaker 1:I dude we just I just did a uh with my good buddy. We just did a um, a free agency episode where I asked that same question. Man, it's got, it hasn't come out yet. Because I gotta edit the shit out of it, because, hey, I think I went a little too off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want more money, and so they're going into road and track I think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a shame like there's only 14 trail athletes on that team now, like international included everybody. Wow, yeah, I don't know, it's a shame. Whereas, like brooks, when I was before this episode, I was just doing some research and like I know taylor stack, like I'm having sydney on the like sydney on the episode pretty soon. Like quite a few people I like either adjacently or or no on that team, I was like damn dude, like you guys also have Roberto De Lorenzi, you got Anthony Felber now. Like the even the Euro side is crazy. Like how many people have joined the team. So it's pretty cool. So I'd say like no-transcript, where it's much easier to go get signed by ultra Hoka, but if you go, you can go top five at like a significantly more competitive deep sub ultra race. And I know that might be a little like I raised my eyebrows, but like nobody will even know your name, which sucks. So I think that's totally fair.
Speaker 2:I think the I think I think it is the feeder system in the us is certainly easier to get. I think the sub ultra is deeper. I think I think it is uh and I think it's cool because you can also race all the time. I think, from a marketing perspective, if you're a brand which after over a few years will influence the whole, like sport and like, uh, just setting of the sport in the U S um, if you sponsored a bunch of I've talked to Jordan a bunch about this and this was initially what I was like, kind of signing on about um, it was like look like, this is the stuff that's cool. You can race all the time. You can have a bad race and you can race the next weekend. But if you have a bad race for a hundred miler, you're not racing again for months. You shouldn't you get so much more out of the athlete because you can race all the time you can. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it makes more sense to if you had a stable of athletes, to have more sub at sub ultra than ultra. Yeah, I'm pumped on it. I think it makes sense for the sport. I think it'll be how the whole thing grows because there's obviously like an obvious next step. If you're in sub ultra, you're like why don't I try a 50k? And then you're like you know what that went, okay, why don't I do a 100k, like it. I think it supports the sport and its longevity as well.
Speaker 1:No, for sure, For sure, not to double back fully and then we'll start. We'll start winding down with questions pretty soon. But, like the one last one I have for you on, like the Brooks conversation was especially coming from the Northeast, was it harder to start that conversation for someone like yourself or was it like, did it take? Like, what was the that process? I obviously you don't have to give away anything. That's too much information but, I'm just going to say like how much harder was it coming from the Northeast Cause?
Speaker 1:I know it's not easy to start those conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, they pursued me. Um, I have some Brooks connections Like I did live in Seattle for like 10 months. I have some Brooks connections. Like I did live in Seattle for like 10 months. I knew Talon, who was on the team at that point, and like in high school I got invited to that like Brooks PR meet they do for like the you know handful of like high school students. So I wasn't like unfamiliar with Brooks for sure. So, yeah, I don't know they. They reached out to me. I'd been talking with Solomon. At that point I'd gone to a like Solomon like trail camp thing that they did for like kind of budding trail athletes, I guess, and with like Kieran know all the, all the boys like kieran, ryan whitfield and jacob dewey yeah so, yeah, uh, it was it kind of just like fell in with brooks um, and I've always liked them because there was uh growing up.
Speaker 2:There's a guy a handful of years older than me, um, from bangor maine, who I know, riley masters, and he ran for uh brooks when I was like in high school and college um, so I always had like a positive affiliation um with them and guys like garrett heath just oh yeah, super studs back in the day, and now he's did you beat him at loon?
Speaker 1:I'm sure did you get the chance to race him at loon yeah, I'd beaten him in the last track race.
Speaker 2:He was in with me as well. We did a, we did a 5k, uh, but but yeah, it's fine sorry I had to ask.
Speaker 1:I mean, dude, it's, it's competition. Like you know, it is what it is. Um. On that topic of competition, I'm curious to see, like, what is your like relationship with competition? Like, are you an extremely competitive person? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I kind of get that sense from you.
Speaker 2:Uh, I mean, yeah, I, I really like competition, I really like I do miss the track stuff where it's just really intense. Um, the trail stuff just isn't as intense, because even the short races like I think that Canada race I did was 50 minutes you know it still takes a while. I miss track stuff where you're in a 1500 prelim and the race is, you know barely, you know barely, it's it's never going to be four minutes and you or a thousand meter prelim and you have to be top two to go to the next round. Like I love that kind of stuff, um, because for me there's no thinking involved. It's just like, uh, get it done. I really like that. Um, and I can't say, just do it oh, I didn't even catch that.
Speaker 2:I said that shit uh, so, yeah, that's stuff I really enjoy. Um, I've started really getting my head around like I've had to totally relearn competition because I'm like I'm very high, strong, I really like. Uh, even on the track, I wasn't a 10k guy, I was like a thousand meter to like five thousand meter guy, um, and so that was also dude, whatever. Um, my personality is much more that way and so even at stuff like these shorter trail races, I have to rewire stuff. Uh, we were on this. Okay so canada, we've talked about rammy, a bunch the canada champs. We were on this. Okay so Canada, we've talked about running a bunch the Canada champs. We were on the starting line.
Speaker 2:Remy and I both have like the little like heart rate monitor on our arms and so we I, we both look down like our watches up, and so you have your heart rate up and you're about to start the watch, about to start the race. I'm so like switched on and like amped up. My heart rate was like one 35 standing on the start line and I mean like he it's, it's also like he's much more chill than me. Like there's like a lot of differences. But I think that kind of illustrates like some of the point. I think if I want to be able to do these longer you know, two to four hour races I need to like almost rewire some like nervous system stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's been a challenge for me. Almost rewire some like nervous system stuff. Um, yeah, that's been a challenge for me. I think the only thing that, uh, so far has been kind of a challenge on the trails has just been cramping. Still not entirely sure what it is, but I've struggled with it at a ton of races now, um, and it's certainly exacerbated by certain things. But, um, I think partially that's also like a nervous system thing. You're like two amps like need to be more chilled, um, but I don't think I I don't know, like if I hadn't have cramped and had stuff go wrong, I don't see why I don't win that thailand race. I spent like enough time not moving in the race to be the gap between me and the winner, um, and then, like, you're trying to run and while your legs are just cramping, cramping, cramping, like everything, and you like can't feel, like you can't move. So, um, I wonder if there's some relation there. But that might be a stretch.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, have you like? I don't't know, because the first thing I think of cramping like you automatically think oh, nutrition like electrolytes, water like water tests and all that stuff like possible. Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2:It's just straight up water. Um, I've done now like just carrying salt tabs and just ripping salt abs and it hasn't done anything Um that could be nervous system dude.
Speaker 1:That's interesting.
Speaker 2:Like, that's my like theory currently. I think that at least has a non 0% chance effect. Non 0%, uh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, holy shit, dude, that's crazy I don't know. Well, I hope you get that one. Get that one figured out. I'm sure you will over the next few years. Dude, I want to start winding down now. I don't want to take all your evening, I want to get to just the ending questions. I'm very curious to see who inspires you.
Speaker 2:Okay, within sport, out of sport. I guess that's probably why good questions are more open.
Speaker 2:Okay, within sport, out of sport. I guess that's probably why good questions more open. Yeah, I think, within, at least within trail, who's providing like a cool pathway forward? Jack Kenzel. I think he does such a cool job of being um doing cool stuff that he's really excited by and like doing it right, um, and I think I think some of his approach has just not been muddled by like the.
Speaker 2:Some of the stuff I feel like has gotten in the way for me, um, where you like I grew up I mean I'm sure I think he probably did cross country or something in high school, but like I think he was awful Um, I think I think he was Um, and so I think like you don't go through high school and college and you like have all these like many years long learning processes of like right and wrong and what you do and how you don't do things, and I think a lot of the times those have kind of gone in the way for me being too rigid with some stuff, whereas Jack is just like able to approach things from a different angle and really get things done and I think he's one of the best people in the mountain space period and and like Jim was. Jim was out here for a little while this summer and like got to run with him a handful of times and just hang out with him and talk with him and he was just great. Like he's just so excited by it all and like just so into it. Um, I think those are the people I'm really like inspired by that are just like just so freaking excited by it and just like love the sport and like I've talked with jack so many times about like the dumbest stuff.
Speaker 2:Like talked about trying to do workouts up at altitude and he's like how would you get the most like out of this? And so he's, like you know, putting like ice on his hands between reps to like, you know, like use palmer cooling to like see if he gets more out of the workout that way, because he's just trying to get quality. And then and then we're like you know, like the conversation completely derails. Then we're talking about like it would be unbelievably cool to be at altitude because you're only trying to get like the work done. You could be at altitude, you could bring in an oxygen tank, be like on supplemental oxygen on the like, you know, stair master, just because you're at altitude and you could get like this insane quality of workout in um like you know, just like stuff, like like.
Speaker 1:But like I love these cover dude, you need to have to podcast with him, just uh, just like no, that would not be allowed to be online very long.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I don't know. I talk with jack all the time and, uh, I love the like he just gets so into it and then it's like just the amount of energy and time and thought, um, that goes towards it all without having it get in the way of things. Maybe, and maybe it does, maybe it's like I'm holding him on a pedestal a bit here.
Speaker 1:But, um, do you think with jack and I, I don't expect you to speak for him, I'm trying to get, I will. I need to get him on. No, I'm just so curious. Is it like the navy seal on him? That's like just like the psycho that like has to control every variable and like has everything planned out? And I mean psycho and like the most like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, it's the biggest compliment possible, because like I just know, like I've like met a couple seals in my day, like these dudes are like so attentive to detail, like I've never in my life seen people so attentive to detail. And Jack, just I don't know. I've never met him, I just adjacently, have listened to podcasts with him in it and he just seems like someone that literally covers every frigging variable in some ways, and then at others, no, like at trophy Okima, I had to give him my shirt because he didn't have.
Speaker 2:Like you know, he needed like a lightweight, like short sleeve shirt, and so it's like you know, it's like a funny mixture of things. Um, and I don't know, I think it's probably, like most things, it's probably nature and nurture. Um, I do think the sport at the highest end really selects for like a certain level of neuroticism. Um, and I made some joke because jack and anna are, you know, living out of a van right now in europe and like going after this, these cool ski objectives, and um, I was just saying, like, how is it being in a van with like two super neurotic people? Like what is this going on?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think fly on the wall, yeah, yeah but I mean, I mean, jim is no different, jim, you know, can break quieter though isn't he like?
Speaker 1:I've never met him either. I've just heard, like I know a lot of people that know him and everybody has told me like he's, just he's I don't know. Like I feel like, unless people like really really know him, he comes across as a very quieter guy, like maybe a little more unassuming is that you took away from that, or was it just more?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think the public um deal is more that way. But I think, if I mean I think because he did a pod with finn out at like broken arrow, I mean yeah, after broken arrow, um before, like western states, I believe. Uh, is that wrong?
Speaker 1:no, I think you're right and he got talking.
Speaker 2:He was talking a little bit, or maybe it was after, but western states but I believe that he did that pod out at Palisades with Finn and I think afterwards stayed around for hours just talking. Really, I think the I mean, yeah, he loves it. You don't get to be that good without like being, oh, you have to be obsessed. Oh, yeah, not about it, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it was super cool with him out here talking about things, because you can totally tell like where in his career he's at, because he was just totally fascinated by this concept of like endurance and like um figuring out how to handle shitty weather. Like he was really. He was harping on about a bunch of these things like the euros. Do that the us doesn't get right that like all these things that he was just like clearly just were like dominating his like mind. Um, it's just because he's like that's what he's thinking. He's like this is what they need to be doing to get better. Um like identifying, you know, and jack will do the same thing.
Speaker 1:Like you know, we're always talking about the same thing the interesting thing about jim is that dude, it's just the crazy longevity, like, I think, most of the people. Like you see, like mario mendoza's on his way out, like he's, I think, he's leaving the team this year. He just like, wrote a big thing and and like a lot of guys that jim came into the in.
Speaker 1:You know tim, tim tolfson's on I wouldn't say the back end, but like he's I think he's probably close to the transition point where he'll probably move on and go to obviously I don't want to speak for him, but like close to the point where he's gonna go be race director, you know, and I think that might be his thing.
Speaker 2:But like you see, the class that jim came in with, it's maybe just him and zach around that era that are like still left, yeah, but like you could put zach into the same boat, zach's durable dude, yeah that is very durable, yeah, but, um, I do think, like that hyper attention to detail on stuff and really caring, like I mean jim jim I think has been fueling at a really high rate much longer than has been popular, um, like he's kind of I'd been identifying like the next step for a while, um, and I think he probably got lucky on that specific aspect right, because I think if he was training how he was before with you know, fueling styles of old, I think maybe that is a huge hit to your longevity. Yeah, or maybe not. Maybe jim's longevity is truly only due to, like him, being incredibly obsessed that could be obsessed genetics.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot. I mean there's so much that goes into it too, the other thing too, like dude, because I know jim hasn't broken the curse yet of actually beating killian. If killian goes to western states this year and if jim beats him like I would, that would just like that's the cherry on top of the proverbial like sunday for his career, like just at that point, it's like holy shit, you did it like even though the fact that he's already been able to win western states five times and win utmb, like he hasn't gotten that signature win over killian yet.
Speaker 1:Like that, just as a fan, I just love, would love to see that happen.
Speaker 2:I don't know I mean how awesome too, like, because I mean killian's probably more obsessed than both Jim and Jack together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's possible, I have. No, I don't know anything about him. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, I mean, killian has these spreadsheets he's made of like the world, like the all time greatest like ascent efforts made, and it's like it's incredibly complex, like uh spreadsheets with like ton and ton, tons and tons of performances on it, like killian's a I was astonished by the training that he put out this past year.
Speaker 1:Did you see that? That? Um, that write-up that he put out I think it was right after series and all and dude, like five hours a day of aerobic, like in the winter, um, I think that was it like his baseline for that. And then he would do like a I don't know some like progression run on saturday on the treadmill, like it was just interesting to see like what he was doing and then how he was narrowing it down to get more specific.
Speaker 2:But like he's a freak dude, like interesting guy, interesting character and I think I think the part about him that I think is probably even weirder is how much of a student of the sport he is too like, um, yeah, like all those guys, yeah, I think that's just really a desire to be better, for sure yeah, yeah it's, and it's interesting too.
Speaker 1:I mean, dude, you're so young, so like it's I don't know. And as you meet these people that are literally giants in the sport, I feel like there's just so so many opportunities like take your information, what you've learned already, and then like take little tidbits from other folks you know and kind of apply all those little things, which is pretty dope, you know yeah plus you're friends with jack, so you know it's interesting no, I think I think jack is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, obviously there's like like he's a bit brash or whatever, but um, he also is just. I think we're probably similar where it's like well, he'll be, like he'll be like dming someone for like advice because they've done the route, and then they like don't answer him and he's like pissed, he's like I fucking hate this guy. And then like he responds two years later and jack's like oh my god, this guy. And then like he responds two years later and Jack's like, oh my God, this guy's the best, like, uh, I think that stuff's funny. Um, yeah, no, it'll be. It'll be interesting to see what happens with.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping Jack can kind of come around into some of these like actual races, um, cause stuff like his time on the Prezi, um time on the prezzy, um, some of the stuff he's done that way I think are extremely fast, um and don't get. I don't know how many people in the us could go think about challenging it. Um, yeah, so I would love, I would love honestly both to see, you know, jim go towards some fkt projects, kind of like he used to do um, and then jack kind of go towards some racing. I would just love to see you know a bit of those two worlds collide a bit I do.
Speaker 1:I feel like and you know it's I mean jack on the racing scene, like I think he blew a lot of like, like a lot of people were like super impressed. He blew some minds this year like kima. He had a fantastic race.
Speaker 2:It was a few more races in Europe. Yeah, no, it was also a little too bad because, like from perspective, like Finley is unbelievably good and doesn't get the recognition. But you talk to any, like any guys who live and train out there, they're like, oh my God, finley is unbelievably good from 10k up in like fell racing and stuff these, these certain things, like he's a really, he's a stud, um, and so I think that result you could almost be like oh, he got beat by this finley guy, like you know he's. That's not the same as like killian or Killian, yeah, yeah, but they were both well under Killian's time on a course that all the good guys have gone and done. Uh, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, dude Jack's world class man Like I'm, I'm excited for what he's able to do and what he like starts to plan for in the future, and you know, obviously, jim as well, Like I. As far as Jack goes, though, like I'm, I think the world is just curious to see, like what he continues to do on the racing side. Just because he was avert, like he had some aversion to it, now he's doing it Like it's cool.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I want to. I kind of I kind of don't love the ski records, just because I feel like the ski, just like day to day, the snow could be a 20 delta, yeah. So I wish he would come and do like I really wanted to send a resume in for the world's team. Oh, dude, there you go. I think he would do fantastically well at the long race, you think?
Speaker 1:the long one, or like yeah, I was gonna do. He could probably compete at like the 42k, like I think there's but I think he's better at the longer stuff.
Speaker 2:Um the one race he did in europe this summer was, I think, a bit too short for him, a bit too quick. Um the the other race, um gire de mont, um, and I think he needs it to be a little bit longer, and the pyrenees are supposed to be really technical, so something like that I think he would dude, you got to convince him.
Speaker 1:Tell him to send a resume.
Speaker 2:I know, put that out in the world but I don't know if the selection team would honestly like uh value the fkt results. That's true that's true.
Speaker 1:Who is the selection? Is it it's tom hooper and company right like who else is part of that selection team? How does that work?
Speaker 2:tom hooper, paul kirsch it is kirsch okay like max kings on there, I think. I think it's like a small little committee, okay, um, I think nancy hobbs obviously has to be on there that would make sense okay um, yeah, and it's. It's an interesting group that, like everyone's going to have their own bias, um, and I think if you can't factor in FKTs, it can limit who you could have on the team and I think if you're you want to send a team, that is your best chance of right.
Speaker 1:Who's going to win on a world stage? Right, not just who wins this particular race in America, but who's going to, you know, be the best on this type of terrain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it's been interesting on some of that stuff, how it'll be fun to see the like whole process have to be reformed as time goes on, cause it'll be more and more important. It'll be under more scrutiny as time goes on. Like you know, you have to have the race be similar to the world's event and it'll be cool to see that stuff happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no for sure, all right. One last, one, last question, cause I am so curious, like do you want this to become an Olympic sport? Like what's your take on that? Or do you think just worlds is the better way for us to express our ourselves in the sport?
Speaker 2:I don't think I care if it's an Olympic sport. I mean mean, obviously the olympics is like the pinnacle of of athletics, um, and I think that would be really cool, but I don't know, I don't know, the schemo stuff in the olympics looks kind of whack to me.
Speaker 1:It looks really bad.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't think that's what it should be about. Um, even the race in austria at worlds for the short uh for the classic felt incredibly contrived.
Speaker 1:It did not feel like mountain world, uh, stuff wait, was that was the classic, the section where there was like I don't know, there was like rocks in the middle of the road or some shit like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're like, what was that?
Speaker 2:running through innsbruck like through a roadway, um, with a fake trail put in, and maybe that's cool, but you got to do a better job than that, I think. Um, and so much of it was road. Um, I don't think that's super cool. I think that event lended itself better to the? Um. Short and long trail races were unbelievably cool, I thought. But you've got to have the classic. You can totally build out a really cool classic event. Um, I think the classic race is the hardest one, the classic or vertical or the harder ones to like be top five or be on the podium. Um, and so they should be mountain events.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yeah, no, I agree, dude, dude. I think that's a good place to cut it until we do round two. Dan Kurtz, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1:That was awesome competition dude, or competition awesome conversation. It's Monday. It's been a long day, but it's four. Um, I work East coast hours, so it's really fun. Um, yeah, man, thanks for coming on Appreciate it. It was a great conversation and I'm excited to talk to you about so cool. Yeah, what'd you guys think? Oh, man, that was so much fun. Thanks, dan for coming on. Really fun having a chat. Um, you know, stoked for uh, stoked for his 2025 season, I can't wait to see this guy make back to back to back world teams, um, and just continue to have just an insane career in our sport. Um, it's going to be fun to see where his career takes him. Uh, guys, before you get going, hop on instagram.
Speaker 1:Dan's a fun follow. He's's got some like a couple like really crazy rails on there. One in particular of like I don't know if it was talent or who it was almost falling off a cliff. Um, definitely kind of crazy. Um, I think it had like I forget how many million views it had, but it's pretty crazy. It's uh, I'll tell you right now. I'll tell you right now 16.3 million views. So go be 16.4 and enjoy it. Guys, before you go and give him a follow, you can find him at Dan Kurtz on Instagram. I think he would appreciate some follows and some love. Send him some words of encouragement. He's got a stacked season he's going to be taking on, so I'm sure he'd love to hear from all of you. Dan's got fans Pretty cool. Yeah, before we get going, guys, do me a solid. If you're on the front range this upcoming Saturday, I hope to see you.
Speaker 1:Come on over to the Colorado Running Company. We're going to be kicking off a run at 8 o'clock in the morning. I'd say probably like 8, 10. I'm going to wait for some people to filter in. First 20 folks through the door gets a free pair of Cetus socks. Cetus was kind enough to send a whole bunch of socks to me to be able to pass out to all of you. We're going to be talking about some of those Cetus products as well which I think you guys would get a kick out of. We're going to start our group run yeah, 810, 815 out the door, probably back in an hour or two, and then, once we're back, we're going to kick off some gear discussion from Ultimate Direction. I'm going to do a fun little demo and some free vest giveaways courtesy of Ultimate Direction. We're also going to give away some hats, stickers, all kinds of fun stuff, and they're going to be providing some refreshments as well, which are pretty dope.
Speaker 1:Next, we're going to transition into a couple other gear demos. Nike Trail is going to be there for you guys to demo their shoes as well. There'll be two pairs of new Nike shoes dropping that they're going to be demoing, and then we will move into a live podcast with none other than Bailey Kowalczyk, who I'm really excited to finally have on the pod. This is going to be a good one. Get to do it in person and you guys can all follow along if you happen to be there. This is going to be live on YouTube as well, which is going to be super cool and, yeah, I hope you guys can make it. Yeah, also, if you enjoyed this episode, give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That would be dope. Appreciate it. Have a great week, guys. Thank you.
