The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Sub-Ultra Mountain Running
The Steep Stuff Podcast
Andy Wacker - Pre Sunapee Scramble Interview
Ever wonder what it takes to compete at the highest level of mountain running? Andy Wacker, one of America's most accomplished trail runners, pulls back the curtain on his remarkable journey in this candid conversation.
From crushing a string of road races to preparing for the all-important Sunapee Mountain Classic, Andy shares the surprising freedom he's found competing without sponsorship. "Racing for myself takes a lot of pressure off and it's been really fun," he reveals, explaining how this mindset has contributed to some of his best performances ever—including a fourth-place finish at the US Cross Country Championships and a breakthrough 13:51 5K on the track after a decade-long hiatus.
The conversation digs into the fascinating tactical challenges of Sunapee's two-loop format, where competitors must navigate non-technical uphills and tricky descents not once but twice. Andy breaks down his specific preparation, including simulating the punishing sensation of hammering a downhill before immediately climbing again. "You've got to be able to hang with everyone climbing insanely fast. You've got to be able to descend on the most techie thing you've seen and be fine, and then you've got to be ready to do it again better than you did the first time," he explains.
For Andy, this race represents more than just competition—it's a redemption opportunity after missing chances due to injuries and illness in recent years. He shares his burning desire to make Team USA and contribute to what could be a historic squad: "I really want to be on a team that wins a gold medal at Worlds, and this could be that team." With competitors capable of sub-14 minute 5Ks and sub-30 minute 10Ks lining up together, the stage is set for what promises to be an epic battle for those coveted national team spots.
Whether you're a competitive runner or simply appreciate athletic excellence, this episode offers valuable insights into the mindset and preparation of elite mountain runners. Listen now and discover what it takes to perform when everything is on the line.
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
What's up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and I'm so excited to bring you guys another Son of Peace Scramble pre-race interview with none other than first ballot hall of famer and just a legend in our sport, mr Andy Wacker. Super excited to catch up with Andy and have a chat with him. Andy's been on absolute terror this offseason, not only taking the overall win and course record at the big out, the 28 K, but his road season has been insane. Everything from the 15 K to the five K. Andy has been tearing it up.
Speaker 1:It was super fun to catch up with them and chat about his basically his build and where he's at in it. Now he's been starting to layer in more specific stuff to get ready for Sunapee, but all eyes are on the prize right now and Andy is gunning to try to get himself on another team to represent Team USA, and there's no doubt in my mind that Andy's going to be able to do it. So, guys, I hope you enjoy this one. It was really fun to catch up with Andy and just kind of explore where he's at in his journey right now. So, yeah, andy's in a good place and it's just exciting for what he's going to be able to do. So, without further ado, I hope you enjoy this one.
Speaker 1:None other than Andy Wacker. Andy Wacker, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How are you, buddy hey, doing well? No-transcript excited to catch up. I know we kind of ended the season, um, and then you kind of picked up on this beautiful roadblock that you've been on, so maybe, maybe let's talk about what you've been doing on the roads lately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I think, um, it's funny, cause I I usually do something like six months on the roads and then six months on the trails. Uh, something like January two is my dog sprinting in, Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll have to grab him. He does not want to be grabbed. He's riled up. Um, but yeah, I usually do, like January until like June 1st on the roads and then jump on the trails until, like you know, just through December. And it's funny because I keep on thinking this and I'm like, oh, I just I've had some like kind of different years between COVID, and then I had this Achilles injury in 2023 where I got Haglund surgery in both my Achilles, so I've kind of missed a few road seasons. This one really feels like I'm back and then things have been going really well. So I forgot what your question was. I got so distracted by that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we know you're good. You're good, we're talking about the roads. You know we can actually talk off that because I think that's kind of interesting because, like 2022, you I can remember I think it was October when you won the Broken Arrow 23k and that was like one of the best versions on the trail that we'd seen of you in a while and was kind of awesome. And then you kind of were dealing with some of these injuries and I know last year you were dealing with a small injury when we talked I think it was when you got gotten back from Japan and you were kind of bummed about that.
Speaker 1:So yeah it's good to hear that you're healthy man and things are going well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think like this year especially, it's been really interesting because, um, like long story short is, I don't have a sponsor. I opened up my season in U S cross country in January and I got fourth, which is my best uh place in a U S championship. That isn't a trail race ever. Um, like I've had a few top tens, but like fourth was my best finish. So, um, I was like reflecting on that earlier this year and I was like why am I running like so well and it's like I literally just don't have something wrong or like going wrong and like. So I think as runners, we've, we've, we need to be grateful when things are just kind of normal and like we don't have to have this like superhuman training block or something. Um, there's like a lot to be excited about if things are just kind of going forward instead of kind of moving backwards, so sure for sure.
Speaker 1:Maybe we can dive into that a little bit, because I I've seen a lot of athletes put and maybe you can speak to this personally you know athletes put a lot of pressure on themselves to perform and do the best they possibly can Do. You think maybe that takes a little bit of pressure off for you or, you know, just kind of racing for yourself right now.
Speaker 2:Racing for myself takes a lot of pressure off and it's been really fun. I think it's been really nice just to like um, I'm roommates with Shay and um, shay said something really nice and thoughtful that I've reflected on, I think, earlier this, much earlier this spring, and she's like like what do you want to do? Like you know, it's like not who cares, like what you should do, like what are you excited about? And so, um, honestly, I've been super excited about racing, like short, fast races. Um, and so in january I was really trying to lean into like making the um us team for the 46k for the short trail. As of this week, I'm like not even entered in the broken era of 46 K, so I've just been like leaning into what Shay said and and and going for um short road races, five Ks and and miles and 12 Ks and stuff like that, and then, uh, I hope that really pays off for Sunapee and then kind of like this shorter trail season.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about that. So you had raised so you talked about kind of like this shorter trail season let's talk about that. So you had raised. So you talked about kind of cross-country and how you had done so well. There you did do a string, quite a few, and I think it was just recently a 25k as well for national. Was it national champs 25k or something that you had a lot of success at. Maybe unpack that and talk about how that build has gone really well and where you're at like, are you going to do any more road races or are you fully transitioned now to, uh, to the trails?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is. It's so funny that again, like I feel like sometimes I say things and I just sound totally crazy, but, um, this has been my season so far. So January I did um, us cross country 10 K, got fourth. I did a weekend of road racing in Bermuda, which was a mile, a 10 K and a half marathon, and um ran one of the best miles of my life, even though it was the time was slow, it was like four, 17 and then ran a 30 flat 10 K on a hilly course which was like insanely fast for that course. Um. And then in February I didn't race anything.
Speaker 2:March I ran the U S uh, or it's not the U S 15. I ran the US uh, it's not the US 15. I ran Gate River, which is usually the US 15k champs, and ran a minute and a half faster than I've ever run before um and went through like the 10k in a lifetime PR of 28, 39. Um ran Big Alta, one off of no trail training, uh, which is like a close to 20 mile race. And then, um in April I ran Carlsbad 5k poorly timed that race ran a four oh five first mile and a 5k which is like way too fast. Um, and then was like, oh, I need to like run another 5k, that I'm not being dumb, and so I can break 14 and just like a running run a good time. And so, um, I signed up for um, peyton, jordan, which is like a track 5k, and Stanford first time I've raced on the track in 10 years and ran um 1351, which was a little slow. My PR, unfortunately, um, cause I think I'm in PR shape just didn't hit it.
Speaker 1:Um and and you say that 1851 you ran. Yeah, wow, dude, that's crazy. I guess the reason not to interrupt you, but the only reason I'll say that is because most of the peers that you're going to be competing against, I feel like for something like soon to pee most of Dan, a lot of these guys are in sub 14 minute shape, right, a lot of the peers are going to be, so you're right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like some of those guys have run sub 14. I know that for sure.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, so that's interesting. So anyway, like sorry, I feel like I'm going on and on, but the point is like I'm looking back and I'm like, oh, this is a crazy season Cause, yeah, I just finished with in may I did um, uh, three weekends of racing, let's see it Peyton Jordan end of April, uh, blooms day the first week of may, and then, um, the U S 25 K champs in grand Rapids, uh, about a week ago, and so those have all been like great, it's been really good. And um, yeah, kind of the big trend is like a lot of like 10 K ish distance stuff, five K ish distance stuff.
Speaker 1:Very cool, very cool. Yeah, it's crazy. So to transition a little bit back, but yeah, what I was talking about was just like one of the things we, when we do talk race previews, a lot of the questions that come up, especially like I try to translate it especially for, like, some of these mountain classic distances are, like, what's the average 10 K time or five K time for a lot of these guys that are at the front of the race, Like you're Mason's, you, uh, dan, a lot of the David Sinclair, like what are these people running? So usually I've just noticed that, yeah, it's sub 14 minute, five K shape, 30 and below for the 10 or yeah, 30 and below for the 10k. So it's crazy, man, like this is gonna be. There's I feel like I've spoken to so many of you and there's just so much fitness going into this season, like, so it'd be so interesting to see how this pans out.
Speaker 2:so yeah, and it's been really interesting too to see like the different tracks that people take because, um, yeah, like I think, um, liam maru is a sub four minute miler, yep, um, I don't know mason's time, but I know he's actually has like really fast times from college, so definitely like he's a sub 14.
Speaker 2:He's sub 14, 5k I forget what his pr is and then dan's run like 13, 30 something which is faster than my pr disgusting.
Speaker 2:And um, he's run sub four and like, yeah, I think last time at San Ipizo two years ago it was uh, I didn't race it, but my wife Carly did um, there was like four sub four guys, I think, which it's kind of a random stat, but I think it puts in perspective, like you're saying that um short trail running in America is really good right now and I think running in general is really good right now and it's cool to see, uh, some people using that, those skills to kind of on the trail, and I think running in general is really good right now, and it's cool to see, uh, some people using that, those skills to kind of on the trail, cause I think a lot of these people are faster on the trail than they are on on the road or on the track. So those times don't even like show how good Mason is or something you know. If you're like, oh, he's like a 1350, 5k guy, it's like doesn't even show it's.
Speaker 1:Whoever we send, I think this is going to be our best mountain classic team that we've ever sent by far. Like it's going to be crazy um depending. Hopefully everybody shows up healthy. We're going to see what happens, but most of the people I've spoken to um are fit and ready to go and, you know, not just a matter of execution until june 1st. So let's talk, let's talk race um. Get more into like soon to be proper and talk about the race. Are you going out out super early? It seems like a lot of people are going out on the Thursday before and they're going to kind of preview the course, like what are your specific plans for the race?
Speaker 2:Yeah, same. So I'm getting there Thursday, um, the race is Sunday and um, I've done this a lot of times like my 10th time or something doing a U S mountain running champs and I think it's super useful just to see the course. I saw Sunapee two years ago when it was the champs and got to watch that race, so I have like an idea of sort of what the race is like. I think they changed the course just minor changes to it but I think it's going to be tough. It's going to be really good for the people who are there. It's a fast course. It's got a non-technical uphill in general, from what I can tell, so it's going to be a very fast uphill and then it's got a non-technical uphill in general, from what I can tell, so it's going to be a very fast uphill, um, and then it's going to be.
Speaker 2:There's a pretty techie section on the downhill um, so that suits, um, I mean, a lot of people. Mason's a great downhiller. Dan kurtz uh, won in 2023 and ran incredibly like he had. Such a good performance there really shows like how good of a runner he can be. Christian Allen is good at everything. Liam made the team in 2023 and he's used a lot of that speed, so there's tons of people that I think are on that list. I was looking at it, like the other day, and it's a crazy field of people, so it's going to be nice to line up.
Speaker 1:How do you do with the humidity? Do you adapt pretty easily to humidity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not too bad for me. Um, I think you know it's kind of like. You know we, I live in Colorado, so do you? We don't really deal with that, but I grew up in North Carolina and it's hot and humid all the time. Um, so maybe it's just like remembering those days and just being like in a mental place.
Speaker 2:That's fine, cause I think we're all going to physically feel that, but I think just being like in a place and that's mountain running, honestly, it's like usually when I'm mentoring younger people coming into trail running and mountain running, it's like expect something terrible, like just expect something to throw you off.
Speaker 2:Like you know, it's like if you're just used to track running, it'd be like if someone's like throwing buckets of water at you and just like trying to kick you and like I don't know, like it'd be insane, like, so that's trail running, cause you have to avoid all these obstacles.
Speaker 2:Um, sorry, I'm gonna go on. I've been on a lot of tangents here, but like I was running the Jungfrau marathon, like seven years ago, and this is a big trail marathon in Switzerland, and we were running in this big group of guys, like 10 of us, super fast on this kind of like dirt road section on the first half and all of a sudden the train just goes through and you just have to like stop and wait for the train. We're all like waiting for like 30 seconds probably, which it wasn't super long, but like 30 seconds is a long time. When you're like waiting and you're really anxious and like nervous and there's 10 guys like lined up and uh, that's, I feel like that's such a good example, because you don't really expect a train to stop you in the middle of a trail race, but it might.
Speaker 1:So that's insane. I've never like that's gotta be the craziest race story I think I may have ever heard like just a rate, like a train in the middle of the race. I mean I've seen it in JFK. I think there's a train stop that people have had to go through, but that's the only one I've ever heard of. That's bananas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's always something. Now you know it's like it's either that or someone takes a wrong turn or, like you know, just something isn't happening like you expect it to. And I think that expecting the unexpected, of being a little ready for adversity, is like a good skill that has suited, like um, me but a lot of other people who have traveled and competed at like kind of the world stage pretty well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's talk the like racing this race. Obviously it's two loops. When I think of two loops, the kind of one of the few races I think of as something like broken out 46 K, right, and like the, usually the guy leading the 46 K in the first loop is not the person winning the race on the second loop. Is there any strategy going in Do you think you're going to employ for this? Like, maybe you know kind of wait, cause it's interesting. I talked to Tyler, I talked to a few folks and some people are just wanting to go from the gun, obviously going to go crazy, but like other people are like, well, there's four spots that go, maybe see what happens, kind of. What is your take on this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's complex, which makes it really exciting, cause I think, um, basically I I've been training for that second loop, feeling for the last like little while, um, and that's really important Like we just did a workout with our team, like last week, that literally was focusing on hammering a downhill as hard as you can and then immediately going on a climb. Um, cause that doesn't doesn't feel good. Um, I think in a nine mile race like this, it feels like racing an 800 meters on the track, and so you don't really have a lot of time to wait. And so I think there is strategy, like you're saying, like one could conserve some mental and physical energy, but, like you know, it's not long enough where you can be kind of out of sight and think that you're going to be fine making up a ton of time, like maybe if it was like three or four loops or something, but yeah, so I don't know, it's kind of good.
Speaker 2:I guess it's a little bit of both. I think you got to be really aggressive from the gun. You got to be able to hang with everyone climbing insanely fast. You got to be able to hang with everyone climbing insanely fast. You got to be able to descend on the most techie thing you've seen and be fine, and then you got to be able to ready to do it again better than you did the first time. So I think it's going to be tough.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's why it's for the biggest stakes in our sport. We're one of the biggest stakes in our sports. Yeah, crazy, yeah, it's like dude. It's one of those things that I feel like I almost think of it as like a series race where, if you don't assert yourself in the race immediately, it's going to get away from you but also have to be kind of smart. It's, it's, it's, it's that fine line, right, so it's going to be interesting but two, two laps changes everything.
Speaker 2:I think Cause even series, at least it's more obvious where it's like you have to be in and then you just like have to be able to descend, but now it's like oh, but the second lap yeah, it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 1:There might who knows, there might be carnage. You might be able to scoop people up or whoever you know. We'll say what is your, what's your expectation, is it?
Speaker 2:obviously, I would assume it's probably make the team Correct yeah, basically the last not basically the last champs I ran was 2022, when I won Um, and then 2023, I let me think, if I'm messing this up, 2023, suna P I had Achilles surgery and then last year I was there but I had to drop out cause I was dealing with, like COVID, basically Um. So I'm ready to be back and go for the win and I think you have to have that mentality to get top four. I don't think you can say I'm going to get fourth, because if you think you're going to get fourth, you're going to get 10th. But yeah, I think it's going to be a fun, fun race.
Speaker 1:Of all that. So you have so much experience of all the teams you've made and all the things that you've done in the sport a long time. What would this mean for you to make it back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this is a good redemption year for me. I think I'm in like a different storyline than a lot of people. Um, you know, I think Joe gray has been in this position a lot and he's not racing, but it's just like you gotta prove yourself every single time and I think it's not given to you and I think that's interesting. It does mean a lot when you're unsponsored and you have been sponsored, to be like I'm still here, I'm not too old and washed up or something, and I think, like you, I totally agree with you. I think it's scary how good our team's gonna be this year and I really wanna be on a team that wins a gold medal at Worlds and this could be this year, and I really want to be on a team that wins a gold medal at worlds and this could be that team, and so that's cool and yeah, I think all those things it's a lot, a lot going on. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, joe has that famous quote that I love when he says it what is it that you? Sometimes you've got to look the man in the mirror and prove them wrong, or something like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:Um, what's, uh, what's the race day shoe? What are you rocking for race day, haven't?
Speaker 2:decided yet, um, looking through a couple different things, I've been trying out the north face vective pro 3 um and I think that's a pretty good shoe. It's, honestly, it's pretty good at everything it's. It's more of a shoe like. It's more, like you know, chunkier than um some things I've worn in the past, but I think it can do a lot. So I I'm maybe leaning towards that, but, um, yeah, I'm still looking through a couple of shoots.
Speaker 1:So nice, nice Is there. I mean, obviously there's different confidence boosters and things like that. Going into races like this. Is there any last, like cherry on top of the proverbial Sunday, that you plan to put on like any little cause? I see like, for instance, like Mason and Dan went and ripped that. So there's other things that guys are doing. Is there anything you have left to do before you go into this race, or do you think you're content? You're ready to rock and roll?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think I have enough time, unfortunately. I wanted to do this, you need this loop, but I was racing, um it was for a month and um I raised three out of those weekends, so I had like one week to do it. So last week I was, I had four days to like rest and do it and I was like maybe I can and I was just too too beat up so I didn't give it. I think that would have been nice just because it's like mason's going in a great spot. Just having that must be a great confidence, and it's not the exact same like cindy. This is a little bit more techie, but that's better. Right, like being going and be like oh, I did like something harder, basically against some of the top names in the in the field. Uh well, dan in particular, and other people did you read dan strava comment?
Speaker 1:I was messing with mason. I sent him that like screenshot. I was like dude, you're living rent free in dan's head right now. Did you see what dan, right like dan was like put up like a full? I'll bet when I have the I actually I'm supposed to meet with him this afternoon and have him on I got to read it to him Like dude, you write this whole like long thing. This is really interesting, like talk about it. So he wrote like this, like really like dense paragraph, and I was like, wow, this is he really made a. Mason really made him upset.
Speaker 2:So we'll see, maybe Dan's got this fire going in now. Well, it's going to be. Yeah, there's just a lot going on. It's kind of funny when you do like a training run Honestly, I did so you'll like this Um, cause I'm like pretty honest with all my stuff I shared on Strava and things. But I wanted to do a workout yesterday where I went up and down like skillet road Do you know, like skillet?
Speaker 1:No, I'm familiar with it. I've never been on it personally.
Speaker 2:I'm familiar with it. I've never been on it personally. Yeah, Long story short is there's like this one mile dirt road that goes up to gold Hill and it's um one mile dirt, 750 feet of gain in a mile. Okay, so it's like one of the steepest roads anywhere.
Speaker 1:There's a descent that looks skill at descent, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so there's this is a funny story actually. So there's a, there's an ascent that you can do as an FKT that nobody cares about because it's terrible, because it hurts. But long story short is, my friend Dan had it. He like tried in like 2019 or 2020 and he ran a pretty good time. Let's call it like nine minutes and 30 seconds, which is incredible. It's a super steep hill. And then he I ran it while running a long run and I ran like nine, 25 or something. I'd like broke his time by a little bit and I was like, wow, that was hard and uh, no one will beat that time, you know.
Speaker 2:And then, um, I'm trying to remember the exact order, but long story short is I like finally just did it as like a race. I like warmed up, just did that, nothing else, and I ran, um, just under nine minutes. It was like 855 or something, and this was like at 10 in the morning on the summer day, and the funniest thing ever is that I'm messing up the order. I ran like 930. Justin Gruenwald ran a really fast time like 910.
Speaker 2:I ran 855 at 10 in the morning on some day in the summer in 2020, and justin grunewald saw it. His java must have alerted him that he lost his crown. He came out and ran it at like 3 pm the same day and lowered it by like five more seconds and now it's like an unbreakable time. Um, so I went to go break it yesterday and I was going to do like a little workout and go up and down a couple times. And I did it once and I was like sore from doing this downhill workout earlier this week and I was like, oh I'm, it's not going to happen. Um, but you just gotta like, you gotta acknowledge where your body's at. So I think I found out I would need more than like a day to recover from some smashing, some downhills this past week, for sure.
Speaker 1:You know I never asked you this. I I'm I'm not big on Strava, like I kind of just like keep to myself on Strava and don't really follow it on people. Are you a big cyclist guy too? Like do you do a lot of like extra stuff on the bike or you just stick to running?
Speaker 2:You know what um could be easy to make fun of is I own a Peloton and I use, uh, the Peloton, not a ton. But I was trying to do doubles, like like once or twice a week earlier this winter, um, and have done less since. I've been racing more Um. So, yes, I bike, but not not like super consistently.
Speaker 1:It's funny. I just started, like I was talking to Michelino about this the other day, cause I just started gravel biking and I was like, wow, this is like a good little fitness unlock. There's like more to it, yeah, and I just never had played with it until.
Speaker 1:I had to, so we'll listen to Andy. We're at about time or close to 30 minutes now. I wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast again. We're going to do another like long form chat, uh, maybe after the season and as or maybe as we get ready for worlds and stuff like that. But really want to wish you the absolute best of luck on race day and, uh, I'm cheering for you, man. It's going to be a fun one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much, thanks for much thanks for the interview.
Speaker 1:Yeah, appreciate it. Listen up, guys. The steep stuff podcast is brought to you by ultimate direction usa. Guys, I am so excited ud just dropped their new race vest six liter, and ultra vest 12 liter in two beautiful aesthetic colors. You guys got to check these new vests out. They're dynamic in ways, um, like that you just have never seen from an ultimate direction vest Very stretchy, lots of storage, beautiful aesthetic colorways coming into, coming to you in a new like a white and blue and an onyx and green just absolutely beautiful vests. I think these ones are just like some of the best products we've ever dropped and I'm so excited for you guys to try them out. Hop on ultimate directioncom and use code steep stuff pod Again, that's steep stuff pod for 25% off your new vest. I mean, they're already affordably priced, but 25% off is just going to make it so much more affordable for folks in an already increasingly expensive trail running environment. So hop on ultimate directioncom, get yourselfa new vest, a pack or any hydration solution and let me know what you guys think. Thank you.
