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The Steep Stuff Podcast
David Norris - Post Sunapee Scramble Interview
Ever wonder what happens when elite Nordic skiers turn their attention to mountain running? The answer might surprise you.
David Norris, fresh off his victory as the 2025 US Mountain Running Champion at the Son of Peace Scramble, joins us to break down his remarkable journey from Alaska's cross-country ski trails to the podium of one of America's most prestigious mountain races.
Growing up in Fairbanks and now based in Alaska, Norris reveals the specific training adjustments that transformed him from a powerful climber with limited running economy into a complete mountain athlete. His collaboration with coach David Roche represents a fascinating case study in how targeted interventions—weekly track workouts, consistent strides, and year-round running—can rapidly elevate performance even for established athletes.
The conversation takes us through the championship race itself, where Norris demonstrates the tactical intelligence that complements his physical prowess. Despite losing a shoe in mud during the first lap, he patiently moved through the field, particularly dominating the technical sections that played to his considerable strengths. His description of the final charge down the mountain, "sprinting the whole way" to hold off a stacked field, puts listeners right in the middle of the action.
Norris also candidly discusses his upcoming challenges, including the nutrition issues that have plagued his longer efforts and his strategy for making both the 50K and mountain running world teams. Most fascinating is his insight into why Nordic skiers consistently excel in mountain running—their enormous aerobic engines, technical proficiency, and strength create a perfect foundation for trail dominance.
Ready to gain insights from one of mountain running's brightest stars? Listen now and discover how cross-training, targeted workouts, and patience can transform your own running journey.
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What's up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, bringing you an episode today with none other than the 2025 mountain running champion, mr David Norris. Caught up with David just about a week removed from his win at the 2025 Son of Peace Scramble to chat all things post-race and to see where David's at going into Broken Arrow in just a few weeks. Super fun little chat. Always a big admirer of David's, I hope you guys enjoy this one. None other than Mr David Norris, the grandmaster himself. David Norris, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? Great Thanks for having me back on, dude. I'm super excited to be able to do this. Congratulations You're the US mountain running champion for 2025. That's a huge deal.
Speaker 2:How do you feel? Thank you, it feels good. I feel sore now.
Speaker 1:I bet. I bet it's funny. Some people go to Disney World after they won big championships. You went back to Alaska. It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing. And then yesterday I got to do one of my favorite kind of like classic runs here in Anchorage, so everything's good.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, did you, you? I knew you grew up in Alaska, but did you grow up in Anchorage?
Speaker 2:No, Fairbanks.
Speaker 1:Fairbanks Okay, I didn't know that. Wow, super cool. Yeah it's. I'm stoked to go out there this summer. It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 2:And yeah, away by just the scene and just the. Everything about it is just so wild and unique. It's kind of nothing like the lower 48 which is interesting. So yeah, yeah, you're gonna really enjoy the alley. That's good course. It's probably in terms of like the classic kind of up down races it's. I think it's the coolest course I've ever done dude, it's, it's full-on man.
Speaker 1:I mean I was just like, like I said never done it before, but that said like just like looking at pictures and looking at strava and just everything, that's a full-on, like real legit mountain race, like there's nothing like that down colorado anywhere, really like it's, it's like probably the coolest thing outside of europe, which is neat, so yeah yeah, I agree with that all right, let's talk about you man, you man, so you're the champion.
Speaker 1:You won the race. I had zero doubts. I kind of had a feeling it was going to happen, I don't know. So I was kind of present there last year at Brighton and I watched you race Philemon and Patrick very close and I was like, man, dude, the talent level you have is just crazy and I think because maybe you did a lot of those Cirque series races and it wasn't on ultra signup, I think people might've like almost look past it a little bit and I think people really in the know like truly believed like there was, you had an amazing opportunity there and it was no surprise to go see you win that race.
Speaker 2:So maybe talk about how it feels like to to have done it and uh, kind of where you're at now with it like to to have done it and uh, kind of where you're at now with it, yeah, uh well, I mean it feels great Like every any win is pretty awesome, but this was I think this was extra special.
Speaker 2:I cause, maybe different than you, I wasn't that confident in myself, just cause I haven't really like stacked up against uh like a deep running field field.
Speaker 2:I've had kind of one-offs with like Cirque series and stuff and some of those I've done well. And then other times, like like I've raced Fish and Allen before and he dusted me and um, I don't know if it was, it was brighton or um, one of the utah ones, but like I got smoked, um, and then, but then, like doing alaska races, you're kind of like they're, they're really unique to my skill set, I'd say like really steep, really technical, and so I'm like confident in that setting. And so, heading to the east, I just didn't know if that course would actually be like as steep as I wanted, as technical as I wanted. But then I think maybe maybe this race like gives me a little. It definitely gives me some confidence and a little confirmation that some of the training I've been doing to just improve like leg speed and be a better runner. Runner is kind of filling the void where I used to feel like I had this massive weakness against the more pure runners.
Speaker 1:Maybe dive into that a little bit. David Roche was in the chat and he was talking about some of the stuff you had been doing on the track and just like kind of how you upped your game this year. What were? Were you spending a lot more time on the track or just running a lot more on like more flatter stuff? To like like work on run economy? Like what were you doing specifically?
Speaker 2:um, I mean, I guess it starts a little bit like I started working with dave roach in october and like I told him that I actually wanted to run throughout the winter, because I've been like, just like the snow falls, they start grooming and I go like cold Turkey and I just ski all winter.
Speaker 2:And when I run traditionally in years past it'd be like the classic Nordic skier jog where it's like three days a week for 30 minutes and you're going 12 minute miles and I was like I think I'm just over the years of training myself slow like the engines there, um, but I'm, I just like don't run that fast. And so we were doing like one key workout on the treadmill once a week and then so like intervals. And then, as spring came around and the roads got dry enough that I could do quality runs, I started doing at least once a week like a speed set and and then way more strides than I've ever done. And then over the last maybe five weeks I've done three or four track workouts and even in that short period, uh, my times are getting better and I, I imagine like in that short of a period, it's not like I don't know if it's almost like more like neurological that, like it's improving that quickly, but um, but yeah, I'm like more comfortable at faster paces already.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this, so just to set up your curiosity, because you're a coach too has working with David changed your approach at all as a coach? Has that rubbed off on you at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think the coach that I am is influenced from all my past experiences and I think I kind of would say that maybe my skill set as a coach is because I had the benefit of working with so many great coaches through the years, um, and that's like I don't know if it's like this necessarily in running, but in skiing you can work with a club like one season, work with another club the next season, and then you go to university and you have that coach and then in the winter season you have a coach then and then in the summer you go home and you maybe train with your coach at home. So it's like, at any one point you kind of have a lot of influences going at you, and I think that can be actually hard for some athletes. Or you just kind of take like the good bits of advice from everybody and then just try not to like upset anyone's ego by like taking advice from multiple coaches simultaneously, simultaneously, um. But that being said, I hadn't had like a peer running coach really since like the three months I do cross country in high school, um, and so it's been nice to see like how he approaches uh, mostly the intensity Um cause in skiing, like probably in the last 15 years, like if I did a running workout, it was running up a hill, it was never, never working on an economy and um, and we're just pretty traditional in noric skiing I say we're like like I could do a whole season and all my interval sets were like a variety of like four different workouts kind of thing which is you kind of learn the tried and true but you don't.
Speaker 2:But I didn't do like any, any, I don't know. I feel like the running to me because it's more new, it feels like creative and stuff which I'm sure if people have been in like the track world for the last 10 years training my track intervals wouldn't sound unique, probably. They're probably pretty traditional, but to me it's new and exciting.
Speaker 1:um I think that's awesome man it's just it's interesting to me, like I think it's really cool too that like you're already like really good and then you start to work with david over the last few months and it just kind of you know, sharpens the, sharpens the spear metaphorically, and then now you have like it kind of you know, sharpens the, sharpens the spear metaphorically, and then now you have like it kind of like really showed your potential and like you know you're what, like low to mid 30s, somewhere in that range. Like you have opportunity to have like a whole nother career in the sport at this point, which is kind of cool yeah, have you thought about it like that, like, oh man, like now I can, does it give you confidence?
Speaker 1:like maybe just going into broken arrow and other races that, like occ and things like that you'll attempt this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure it does give me some confidence. The one thing that's hanging over me is a lot of 50Ks. It's never that my legs really fail on me, it's just like I throw up or have GI issues. That's the one thing that I'm like. It just seems like a question mark. I'm trying to figure out how to dial that in.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, that's smart. I feel like a lot of nutrition companies are starting to get good with sweat testing and stuff like that. Have you ever done any sweat tests? I've never done one. I've heard good things but I'm still, I feel like, because I run very short stuff, it's like, do I really need to do that Right? I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I've never done that. Yeah, and I've heard that some are accurate, some are far less accurate, but, um, I maybe should do it. I've done the, the like poor man sweat test, where I'm like, do I see like sweat on my like armpits of my t-shirts and stuff and I don't know? Like I appear to be a very low salt sweater, but I that's very non-scientific and I tend to struggle and get weird issues in longer efforts. So I think I'm figuring it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you've got time. You've got some time between now Broken Arrow and then after Broken Arrow. You've got some time between that and OCC to kind of crack the code. Yeah, especially as the warmer temps kind of come out, you'll get to kind of plug and play and see what works for you. Yeah, exactly, let's talk a little bit about the race and how the race unfolded for you. So I was really interested in kind of your, the kind of how that dynamic worked like kind of broke itself out Like we saw Dan assert himself in the race very early. We saw um kind of Mason always upfront, tyler McCandless was in that mix and you were kind of you were kind of there and it seemed like you didn't put a move on or get away from folks until the second lap going into the second lap.
Speaker 2:Is that correct? Or how would you maybe paint some commentary to that? Yeah, really, the first five minutes of the race I thought went out ridiculously hard. I like I was.
Speaker 2:I felt like I was in like 20th place five minutes in, um, but but I kind of just knew that like there was no point in exceeding sort of this like red line sensation that I have.
Speaker 2:So I just kind of race my own race for the first five or 10 minutes and then, towards the top of the first lap, all of a sudden, like I felt like I was running within myself and bringing people back, and so that was a little bit where I was like maybe there's some hope of like a decent result. But like five minutes in I was like, well, like I guess I'm not as fast as I was hoping or thought I was, um, and then descending on the first lap, I did kind of like like pretty quickly there were some people I picked off on the downhill and I was like, oh all right, like this, this will be good the last lap to just hammer this downhill, um, but I don't know if probably most people don't know, but like my shoe came off on the downhill on the first lap no shit yeah, and I tried to, like it didn't come fully off, my toe was still in it.
Speaker 2:Until I was trying to, I took maybe I don't know 15 steps where I was trying to jam my foot back in it.
Speaker 2:But eventually I had to stop and like try to get the heel cupper back around my foot and it was just one of those weird steps where, like my foot went in the mud and it really suctioned the shoe off, um, and so maybe like three people that I just passed passed me back and so that kind of opened up the gap a bit more that so I was chasing coming into the second lap, um, and then on the second lap I just I didn't necessarily feel like on the ski resort section I wasn't like, oh, I'm just eating people up.
Speaker 2:But as soon as we got into the, the single track and the technical climbing, there was like steeper pitches and just the single track and the technical climbing there's like steeper pitches and just I mean it really was quite technical and kind of relentless. And there I just started like I'd see someone in the woods ahead of me and they would come to me really quick and, um, I wasn't really keeping track of where I was, and when I hit the hit the ski resort like the service road, the guy on the bike told me that I was in second and I could see Taylor like five or 10 seconds ahead of me. Wow. And then I was like, oh sweet, I can make worlds, but I wasn't necessarily thinking when. And then in the descent, quickly, I was like I think this is one runner that I can get on the downhill and I think I was confusing Taylor with another Brooks runner who had just ripped the downhill.
Speaker 1:Probably.
Speaker 2:Dan, dan, yeah, and so, yeah, I was like I thought it was Dan and I'd seen him run the downhill earlier and I was like geez, this guy's insane. But yeah, that was kind of like how it played out a little bit um and it was. It was super fun race, like the whole time I was there's just like it wasn't like boring, I guess, like there's a. It was a little bit of like playing your cards and like seeing people. Like people definitely had their strengths and weaknesses and this course really showed that. I thought, which is like credit to a cool course, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was, I mean just technically engaging in a lot of sections and it seemed like that really I mean to speak to what you're saying like on once on that second loop, once it started getting really steep single track, much more technical on that ascent, it seemed like people just kind of like flaked on that or not. I wouldn't say flake, just like implosions. Yeah, crazy. At what point did you have an idea where you're like nobody's catching me, I'm gone, like I'm going to win this race, or does that not cross your mind until you hit the finish line? Like, were you running scared toward the end or were you in command and just because you look pretty smooth coming in?
Speaker 2:yeah, I felt really strong coming in, like like it's, it's not a aerobic, you know to be finishing on a downhill like that. So it was more just like the focus to like keep driving. But I was not confident that I was gonna just like walk away with it, because I've had races where, like you, you get to the service road and then you're running like a four minute pace and all of a sudden there's a few runners that can, when, when that train happens, they can go just so absurdly fast. Yeah and um, like I was, I felt like the last five minutes I was just sprinting my whole way down the road, yeah, but like the times show how close we all were.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, it wasn't, like, I just like got the chill or something. Um, so, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't risking anything Like. I was just trying to go as hard as I could all the way through the line and I thought that would be good training for me to like finish hard.
Speaker 1:Now I think you did. I mean, dude, it was amazing, it was crazy what unfolded behind you too, I mean right behind you there, that mix up between kind of Mason, taylor, kim, Andy, kind of all being right there was. It was close, man. I don't think I've ever seen a race where right after you, I mean like mason and and um, mason and taylor were like right there. So it was cool to see everybody kind of finish so close to one another. And you know, I had to say hats off to mason too, because it looked like mason kind of faded back and was able to kind of regain some ground and, uh, assert himself back in a second. So it was pretty good. The team we're sending, like you guys, are going to compete for medals, dude, it's going to be pretty sweet yeah, they, yeah, everyone seems super strong.
Speaker 2:And then I don't know, I don't know what you think, but, like, from the website it looks like world champs course will be a little more runnable. Yeah, like faster a little bit.
Speaker 1:It depends, like I. I just don't think it has that. I don't know. We all know like the pyrenees is steep. It's a steep course much more runnable, but it's the east coast mud and techie aspects like obviously, like the techie aspects kind of follow over, um, like you'll have that technical component in europe from what I understand, but the mud and kind of that just nastiness I don't know if that'll be there which makes it kind of like I don't know interesting or not. It was really interesting for me to see because I don't know. I just like I said I had a feeling going into this race A lot of your skills would transfer over very well, given the technicality of this race and like that mud and just like nasty downhills and being able to run really technical stuff or semi-technical stuff and feel pretty confident in it. Where did you, other than your shoe coming off, did you fall at all? It seemed like a lot of guys fell.
Speaker 2:I did on the on the last downhill on on one of the just like open ski resort parts, I fell and slid like probably 10 feet down the grass like wow you know one of those falls.
Speaker 2:That fell very high speed but like not a mark on me from it. Um. But yeah, I did go down there. But like in the, the technical, uh, single track section, like I felt so sure-footed the day before when I was just previewing the course I felt like I was rolling my ankles and stuff, just jogging super easy, and then on hammering through it on the race day I don't think I took a bad foot. It was kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:Wow, more focus or something. Yeah, dude, that's crazy. You were able to kind of get into that zone. That's, that's neat. Um. I gotta ask you this now so, now that you're qualified, you made the team, you're the champion. What um does this change your? Because it's close to occ, does it change your strategy going into occ? Um?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, because I think probably, like for OCC, like the one thing I wanted to change after last year was just like like speed and running economy and then have my legs prepared to hammer down the downhills, which, like when I lived in Alaska, my legs were always really well prepared for downhill running, and then in colorado it's just especially steamboat, the train so gradual, and so I didn't have any of those like pounding like 30 minutes straight downhills that you see in um, see in europe or anchorage, where, like, it doesn't seem like people ever cared to build switchbacks in their trails. Um, so I'm kind of wanting to work on those, I think. I think speed and having durable legs for downhilling is pretty much what. What will help you in these like up down races? Um, because like yeah, and then I think after occ, I can take whatever time I need to recover and then probably do some short hard stuff just to like rev up the engine and get it kind of like tuned up for like being ready to actually go hard right from the gun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Let me ask you this Do you? You're signed up for the 46K for Broken Arrow? Are you still going to go, Like you think you're still going to go throw down at that as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I figured like the whole time. That was kind of it was nice to know that I was going to two world team tryout races, but really Broken Arrow was like I want to do that to have a 50K under my belt before OCC. Okay, smart. And I figured with the altitude, even if it's not crazy hot or something. Just like if I can dial in nutrition at that altitude, I feel like it should be that much easier at OCC. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you have a good day at Broken Arrow, which is highly possible, would you do both teams?
Speaker 2:I think with the I was trying to look at the timeline, but it probably wouldn't be great at World Champs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because the 46K would be before the 14K race. Yeah, look at the timeline. But it it probably wouldn't be great at world champs. Yeah with. Because the 46k would be before the 14k race.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like four days before, and I'm what's that you'd have to choose, then, which one you'd rather do?
Speaker 2:yeah yep, and I don't know, I don't know how other runners, I think I have a. Really I feel like I have a unique ability to make myself absurdly sore in running races, like I just like hobble around for two days, um, even when I think I'm really well prepared. So, yeah, I definitely have to choose Um, and then, you know, I'm kind of torn like side sad me, would love to do the vk at broken arrow, and then that's two teams that I could do, I think, with like the timing of it. But. But I also like the occ was kind of my main target for this season. So then I'm like well, I really want to do the 50k and prepare for occ and have that a like the true test and preparation race for OCC.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are good problems to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, yeah, and I just I mean I love racing and stuff, so like I would do it all if I could, and but I know I won't, my legs won't hold up to that if I try to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this from a mental perspective, like you're probably. I would imagine if I were you I'd be riding a high right now. I'd be super stoked. How do you put that behind you and kind of put that in a box, going into broken arrow and like just get the focus going on that? I know obviously you have like such a dense background as an athlete so it's probably easy for you to kind of just shift focuses and say, okay, this is going to be the new target now, because this is what I'm going after. Is it easy for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd say so. Like I feel like I've I don't know always, always had this feeling where, like, like, if it's a bad race, nobody remembers the next day, and so when it's a good race, like the, the good feelings hang around a lot longer. Like I, I get rid of those bad feelings from a bad race pretty quickly. But I don't like it's like this week running, I'm still just like the same runner I was before centipede, so it's, I don't know. I'm just like the same runner I was before Centipede, so it's, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm just like back into the training plan and, if anything, I'm just more excited and do have a bit more confidence that what I'm doing is worth it. Because, like any athlete, if you have a bad workout or it's like raining when the alarm goes off and it's crummy outside, like if, if you're, if you haven't had good results in a while, but it's always easy to kind of doubt like is this worth it or is this going in the right direction? So I'd say, if anything preparing for broken arrow is, it's like almost easier now because I feel like I got that encouragement that what I'm doing is working and I should just try to stick with it and stay healthy and odds are it's going to keep going the way I want.
Speaker 1:No, I like it. Labiska, since you won, have people been reaching out? Have you started to get a lot more followers? Or people saying like hey, david, congratulations. Are you starting? Has anything changed? People been reaching out Like if you started to get a lot more followers or people saying like hey, david, congratulations. Like are you starting?
Speaker 2:like, have has anything changed? Um, no, I mean, people have been super nice Like, um, just between, like texting and um Instagram messaging and stuff, like tons and tons of congrats and just nice comments, but but nothing's like changed really more than just you know, feeling, feeling like people, people, kind of that. You don't think maybe you're following this stuff or following it and and everyone's been really nice and supportive, but but everyone's been really supportive like all along and and um, like I don't know, we're not in a sport where, like, you get hate mail really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree, I agree, unless you're unless you're a podcaster. Yeah, yeah. Um, but now that's funny. I know I love it, man, it's exciting and, yeah, congratulations. And it's just uh, I'm excited for what's next for you and yeah, I uh it's gonna be pretty cool.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a good place to end it I um one of these days, let's uh I think in like after, maybe after mount marathon, let's do like a long form, like an hour sit down where we can uh go through your whole story and talk, because I really want to learn more about, like, your skiing background and all those things. So if you're game for that, let's, uh, let's yeah, on the books.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, and we can. I'll be more easier to pin down it's fine, dude no, that'd be fun though, because it is interesting. Like the I'm, I feel like it was like really sort of like naive or ignorant in the running space where, like, if you mentioned anything in cross country skiing, I like I'm a total geek in that realm and know it all, yeah, and the running world's just it's like so new that, uh, I don't know It'd be interesting to talk about and like, like.
Speaker 1:And then you see it with, like you know, sophia lockley's crushing yeah dude and stuff so like, yeah, the skiers, a lot of them could do really well in trail running, non-running yeah, there's so many of you man, like you said, sophia, like quite a few, if not like all nordic skiers seem to just I don't know I feel like it's such a better crossover sport for mountain running, even maybe more so than the track.
Speaker 1:The only thing I would say that rivals it are steeplers are usually a safe bet. Yeah, exactly, but that's it. It's very weird. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's your training approach from the heart rate, as well as getting more modalities and like I don't want to call it cross training, but more modalities from other like things that you can do in training, like just building the understanding, like aerobic zones and how to build an enormous engine which, yeah, I don't know if that necessarily transfers over from track and cross country as much as it does from you guys.
Speaker 2:so I think there's something to it man yeah, no, it's true, skiers are. They're strong and that's why I like the alaska mountain running series. Um, like when I first moved to anchorage, we were doing all these vks and the. It was like I had like a lead pack of like five guys I was going head to head with and they were all like four out of five were made the Olympics for skiing, and so it was just these crazy. Yeah, and we were. We were like every, every race for like four summers. Every race we did, we broke the course record because we were just pushing each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so crazy, dude. I feel like every year I learned about a new one of you guys, like last year, scott Patterson. Like, yeah, I learned about a new one of you guys. Like last year, scott Patterson. Like yeah, I brought. I had no idea that guy even existed and he's like a world beater. There's like, like I said you guys come out of the woodwork. It's crazy yeah, scott.
Speaker 2:Yeah, scott and I were roommates for a long time. Wow, um, yeah, and he's. He's a machine like his speed go.
Speaker 1:Result was really cool yeah yeah, so many of you yeah, and then obviously David Sclair, who's been on the scene for a while now and, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and then uh, sylvia nordskar yeah, yeah, so she's key for du yeah yeah, she won, didn't she?
Speaker 1:I think she was, it's a comma. She won last year something like, or got close I yeah, I think so, yeah, she, yeah, she's crazy. So many good athletes, but yeah, bless man, I don't want to take up all your time. I appreciate it. We'll be in touch. I'm going to get this out. I'm probably going to drop.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to get as many done as soon as possible, so I'll probably you got a lot probably drop them all on a little bit, but I'm going to start working on Broken Arrow, so it should be fun yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. Well, yeah, thanks for your support. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:Dude, congratulations again. 2025, mount Running, champ and I will. Yeah, I'll be in touch, we'll chat Cool, awesome Thanks.
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