The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#105 - Noah Williams
When Noah Williams crossed the finish line at Broken Arrow 46K in fourth place, beating dozens of elite international competitors, he knew something special had happened. "I felt almost out of body," he shares, describing that rare state where everything clicks perfectly into place. Just one week later, he stood on the podium at Italy's prestigious Lavaredo 80K.
This conversation takes us deep into the mind of one of America's most exciting mountain runners. From his Vermont roots to his current home in the thin air of Leadville, Colorado, Noah reveals how his winter as a ski patroller and dedicated skimo athlete built the foundation for his breakthrough performances. With remarkable candor, he explains how accumulating 20,000 feet of weekly vertical gain on skis translated directly into running power once the snow melted.
Noah offers a refreshing perspective on training philosophy, eschewing rigid workout structures for mountain-based efforts that keep him mentally engaged. "I try to focus on what really motivates me – interesting terrain and big climbs," he explains. This intuitive approach stands in contrast to conventional wisdom but has clearly yielded exceptional results.
The discussion expands beyond personal performance to tackle the current state of trail running culture. Noah doesn't hold back when addressing what he sees as an "ultra bias" in media coverage and sponsorship priorities. "Ultra running is not that competitive," he argues, pointing to the depth of fields in races like Broken Arrow compared to most hundred-mile events. His passionate advocacy for sub-ultra distances reflects a belief that the sport's future lies in developing athletes progressively rather than pushing them prematurely toward extreme distances.
Whether you're fascinated by elite training methods, curious about the intersection of skiing and running, or simply inspired by authentic mountain athletes, this conversation offers invaluable insights into what it takes to compete among the world's best. Join us for this riveting discussion with a trail runner whose star is clearly on the rise.
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What's up, fam? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. It's been a minute. I'm your host, james Lauriello, excited to bring you guys an episode today with none other than La Sportiva athlete, my teammate, mr Noah Williams, currently residing in Leadville, colorado, by way of Vermont. Noah was kind enough to come on the pod to catch up Just a few weeks removed from his fourth place finish at the Broken Arrow 46K, as well as a podium finish at the lavarito 80k just a week later. That's an impressive double he was able to throw down, um, yeah, super fun to catch up with noah.
Speaker 1:Noah is definitely one of the most competitive, uh, american athletes kind of on the international scene right now, both in golden trail, um, and amongst some others. It was cool to get to uh kind of just chat with him, learn about why he got into the sport, kind of his whys, what it was like growing up in the North and up in Vermont, and just kind of what his plans are. You know where he wants to take his career and just kind of plans like that and where he plans to finish out the rest of his 2025 racing season. I couldn't think of a better time to have a conversation with him, given just what kind of heater he's been on, I know he would probably say that you know his Broken Arrow performance just a few weeks back was probably his most impressive performance of his career so far, and so this kid's got a bright future and it's going to be fun to follow along.
Speaker 1:So buckle up. Hope you guys enjoy this episode. It's definitely a favorite of mine. Without further ado, mr Noel Williams, it's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2:We are live.
Speaker 1:Noah Williams. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, buddy?
Speaker 2:It's good Thanks for having me, James. I'm a longtime listener, so it's an honor.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, honestly, man, I've had you at the top of my list. I keep ongoing lists on my phone of people to have on the pod, and you've been on my list forever. I just have not been able to put it together. So I feel like Broken Arrow, and what you did at Lava Redo was just such an example. I. So I feel like broken arrow, and what you did at Lava Rado was just such an example to like. I'm like, all right, let's, let's do it Like we got to have you on so excited to finally do this and have a chat buddy.
Speaker 2:Yeah Like Russ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, how's? Uh, how are you feeling? Like you had like a kind of crazy couple of weeks of racing man? How's the recovery going?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely still feeling it pretty retired. Um, you know, like I was, that was the plan for the whole winter, so I've definitely been. I knew it wasn't just going into that. Well, I guess it labaredo felt like maybe winging it a bit with a distance that's a little longer than my normal and then being a week later, but the broken arrow was definitely that was a big one, that was on the list for a long time and and I also yeah, and and I think yeah, focused on that for leading up to it and yeah, it went so much better than I could have imagined.
Speaker 2:And I'm really, I think it's the first time I've really noticed the schema fitness translating directly and not, you know, directly and very well into running in the past years. It's it's translated, but it's often a little tricky to get that fitness to to kind of roll over, um, and so I think, yeah, maybe it's just years and years of it now and yeah, overall feeling good. I mean it's nice to be home I'm in, you know, vermont, visiting my brothers and my parents and nice to be sort of on home, like familiar turf, but also, um, just getting destroyed by humidity every day, of course, and uh, um, yeah, um, but recovery's not bad. Nothing in particular is painful. I'm just still tired a week later.
Speaker 1:So yeah, nice man, nice, yeah, dude the humidity and the bugs, bro, like it's so it's buggy out here. I've got like destroyed on some of the trails, like what yeah.
Speaker 2:You'll. Anyone who hangs out with me in Colorado knows that my talk. Like if you complain about mosquitoes around me in Colorado, I'm not going to even like Flint, like I'm not going gonna bat an eye because it's I've learned the hard way, especially in maine, um, where, yeah, you just get destroyed, and it's like if there's not 20 mosquitoes on my hands, uh, in in instantly, like it's they're not bad, they're not. Mosquitoes aren't too bad if there's. So there's a tolerance that you develop in the east coast no for sure.
Speaker 2:And the flies dude, the flies bite you here I was like like, yeah, yeah, and then the horse flies. Those are the worst. Watch out for them.
Speaker 1:Oh man. Well, dude, I gotta, I gotta talk, I mean, I gotta give you your flowers. Man Broken arrow was a hell of a performance, like I would argue. I don't know if you feel the same way, probably as far as, like that world-class group goes like one of your best performances you've ever had, like just like amazing Thanks.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Um, yeah, I feel like I've had a few in the past that have been close to that, but I would say I would. I agree, I mean that field was very intimidating beforehand to look at. That. I don't know. I looked at the star list and I immediately regretted looking at the star list because, just you know, it's impossible to feel like you can. It just gives you, yeah, I think, my chances in my head. I'm starting to like, you know, the rational part of me is like trying to figure out what my chances are and like it starts to be a bit unhealthy, I think, when you look into it too much. So, but no, it was.
Speaker 2:It was cool to see that that that was going to be assembled. I mean, certainly I think everyone's been saying this but the the best 50 K field ever assembled a marathon ish 50 K field ever assembled on us soil and easily, and for it to be led by a guy like Eli and David, like I mean it's, it's just a testament to, yeah, how world-class that field is and I think anyone in the top 20 of that race should be very thrilled with their performance. I mean it was, it was a big deal and I just I think I happened to come out with that, with that the first non automatic spot or, as you would say, or the first non podium, but but but, uh, those three guys were in their own in their own race. It really wasn't a race, it was a race for fourth by the second lap is what it felt like, and I think everyone in that four to 10 spot can sort of would agree. I would think, um, and I was getting chased by some really really strong guys, but yeah, it all came down to that second lap.
Speaker 2:In the steep part of the second lap, I just, yeah, I started having a feeling that is very fleeting. I felt it maybe in Pikes Peak Marathon 2022, when that was the race that got me on the world's team for Thailand, and I'd say it felt similar to that in the sense of just feeling almost out of body, a little bit like just you're doing something, but and you know, you, you know you have the potential for that kind of performance, but then you're doing it and you almost don't know how it's happening, sort of so, and it's the kind of feeling that you chase. I mean, it's addictive and you kind of that. That kind of thing keeps me going for years. I could have horrible performances for five years now and I'll still be like well, it might happen again, you never know. So that's what's fun about racing Dude.
Speaker 1:You? I mean, you knocked it out of the park, like I. I I try to think of like a follow-up question is I I gotta ask more about like in the mix, like one of the things I found really interesting is that, like you weren't. Obviously, it seemed like eli david ryan were pretty much just being chased the entire time. More or less they were in a pack of their own and it seems like there was everybody else right behind them. It seemed like you moved up in that second lap. Was that the case? I mean, that was just what I could discern from the live tracker. But maybe talk about, like where you were able to make a move, because it seemed like a lot of guys wanted to be in the position that you were in and but couldn't just pull that part off to be kind of be in that mix closer to the end of the race. Like, how did that work out for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the first lap I was definitely trying to hold, hold back or conserve. Now you can't hold back, but sort of be sustainable, feel like you're not, you're not, you're not redlining, you're not but you're, but you're working well, you're just not really like totally spending yourself. The beginning is very runnable. You know, I hadn't really seen much of the course. I'd heard about it. Um, I've watched the race two years ago. It was actually at broken arrow but I didn't. I didn't race cause of a calf injury, and so this really felt like. I think that might've actually been part of the mentality. For me was just some feeling of redemption. Um, but yeah, so that first four miles is pretty runnable and I mean it's like 20, a train of like 20, 30 guys maybe, and everyone is hanging out. I mean we're running six, six, 30 gaps, which you know I think actually is conservative, but then people are like chatting, which is always always a bit intimidating.
Speaker 2:Um, but I, I had the realization a few miles in I was like this this is the only, maybe the only race in the U S that this would happen, where there's 30, this many guys running so quickly and so easily, and, uh, it honestly just that entire race. One of the themes was like just feeling sort of national pride for our, for our, the state of US trail running right now. It's really cool, um, but but then really like that, that first part of the second lap, sorry, where the climb gets steep, um, going up to where they call it storm King, the um. That's where, like Eli and David and and Ryan established themselves and actually Ryan was the one who really pushed that climb and I watched that happen and I had been chasing him in the ascent the day before and I'm like man, that is a ballsy move, like that is. I was impressed and I honestly thought it in my head. I'm like that's a little maybe not that smart, like I was thinking maybe that he's making the wrong move, but, uh, to his credit, obviously it was not the wrong move. He absolutely knocked. I mean, sure I had a good race, but Ryan Becker, I'm so just shout out Ryan Becker, like he, what a race and I'm so proud of him for grinding. And like you are no longer professional adjacent Ryan, like you're there, you're right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was, that was a crazy race, so good for him and I saw that happening, but I didn't want it. That was not the pack I needed to be and that would have been red lining for me and I think I'm glad I held back, didn't realize they were going to put the gap on the field like they did, but that's just just what happened. So I was actually in like eighth, ninth, most of that first lap, um, hanging out with um um David Norris actually for a lot of that steeper climb and we were both feeling like it was smart to sort of like conserve and we didn't. But you know, fourth wasn't pulling away Like I could see. Fourth it was Jezz and uh, kade, michael, sort of going back and forth for fourth and fifth and so they weren't really moving away at all. So I wasn't too worried and we were honestly four to nine was all sort of together going into the second lap. Um kade took a quick pit stop, um, very smart move on his part, always worth it. And then, um, I was right in. I then you know I sort of started.
Speaker 2:I felt like the first part of the second lap in that runnable section I was not feeling that good. I was kind of like I don't know. I saw Max King at one point cheering and you know, I kind of gave him this look of like we'll see man, like I don't know, um, you know, it was really sort of waiting for things to kick in and then, as soon as we get to the steep part again, I see Jez and Cade and they're not that far, they're fourth, fifth and I, and in my head I, I, yeah, I think I just have a lot of confidence when it's steep and things get higher up to be for me. So you know, I think maybe I'm the only one who can say this. Everyone was talking about altitude, but that is not an altitude race for me. I mean six to 8,000 feet. I mean 8,000 is 2000 feet lower than I sleep. So it's not, it's low. In fact, for me it's scary because it means I need to push harder, uh, and actually use the oxygen, and so I think maybe that was part of it was. I was just feeling really strong as we got higher up. But yeah, I pretty quickly caught Kate and Jez, and you know that was.
Speaker 2:I knew if I was moving up there, that that's where you need to use momentum and actually make a move, and I I dropped them pretty quickly and I thought they would start to catch me in these little breaks. There's anyone who knows that course knows there's these downhill breaks on the on that larger climb, and so it's not just a consistent climb. It requires I mean that whole course requires well-rounded running. The only thing it really misses is, like super techie downhill sections. I think the downhills are incredibly smooth, but other than that it's you gotta be well-rounded to to to to race well on that course. And I figured I'd get caught on the downs, because that isn't necessarily my forte is just slamming runnable downhills. But I was actually gapping them on the downs as well, and by the time I was closer to the ladder I knew there was a good gap and I and it was. I was just in no man's land.
Speaker 2:But at the same time I was starting to have the feeling of like, oh my God, I might do this. And maybe Ryan Becker? I figured of the three guys ahead of me Ryan was the one who would fall back. No offense, ryan, but Ryan and David have proven that they don't typically fade and Ryan has had some fades in the past. That they don't typically fade and Ryan has had some fades in the past. But this you know. Thankfully for him, this time he, he knocked it, he knocked out of the park. But anyway, that's what was.
Speaker 2:My mental motivation was maybe I can catch Ryan, if he fades, and get that auto, that lost auto spot. And and then I'm also thinking, you know, k Jezzer, on small Brian Whitfield, I mean just name a name and they're behind me and they're chasing and they're not going to give up. So there was no giving up until really I didn't feel like things were, things were in the bag, as you might say, until I was getting out of Shirley and Shirley was. I mean, you know, I went really deep. I, you know, I don't know if anyone heard me at that aid station, but it was not pretty or it was ugly, like I was.
Speaker 2:I was just doing everything I could to like will myself. You know, I this may have come from Nordic skiing, but like I try to push over into a downhill, cause it gives you if you just kind of ease off at the top of a downhill, especially when you're in no man's land and not racing anyone, you can easily lose time without realizing it. So I was forcing that. And then, um, yeah, and then I think when I, by the time I hit the road mile out. I knew I had it and that was kind of or I was pretty sure no one was really close behind and uh, that turned out to be the case and yeah, it felt amazing. I mean, just, you know, still sort of couldn't believe it when I was done. But also probably, you know, obviously I I wasn't sure that I was going to make the team, but I think fourth place makes a good case for the um resume spot and it's definitely a goal of mine to be on that team.
Speaker 1:So well, dude, first off, thank you for painting the picture.
Speaker 2:That was like such a good race report I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know how it works, but like dude, I mean I've heard rumblings that eli's not taking a spot, like I knew that before the race was going in. So if eli doesn't take the spot, it goes straight to you, right?
Speaker 2:so it's not. It doesn't roll over. It would just mean that there's four resume spots instead of two, is how I understand it. But essentially, yeah, whatever, however you want to think of it, but there's six guys regardless. It's just a matter of how many people in the auto spots take it and, yeah, so we'll see. Uh, it'll be announced on the 15th. Um, so, yeah, excited to hear about what that looks like, but, either way, I don't think we're the us is sending an incredible yeah, not having Eli's shirts a little would be a bit of a bummer, but, um, I still don't think it's going to hurt us much. You know, I think he's, he's his reason to not do it is honorable. You know, trying to focus on CCC and he, if he, yeah, like I talked to him after and he said if someone else is more ready and more focused on worlds, then I want to give it to them and I think that's a honorable position. But, uh, obviously, for my perspective, I mean, having Eli Heming is definitely not a negative, for the team.
Speaker 1:No dude's a weapon.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's first team, all violence, like it would be really cool to have eli on a team, like no doubt no doubt win occ.
Speaker 1:That's, that's all you need to say. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, dude, what a race, amazing to follow along and just absolutely congratulations. Like there's. Not many people like that's like that have ever run that fast on that course and just been able to do that. So, yeah, you must have felt amazing. Let me ask you this so whole point all along was to go to the broken arrow and then go turn around and do the weekend after.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:So what'd you do? Hop a flight from like Sacramento or San Fran and like that week.
Speaker 2:No, I drove from, but from broken arrow back to Leadville, um, but from Broken Arrow back to Leadville. My girlfriend is currently hiking the PCT, Emma. I picked her up in Mammoth before the race so she got to see the race and her parents were there and all that and got to see her dog and that was really nice and having her there was incredible. I mean, that definitely contributed to to the performance I had, and, uh, and then I dropped her off back in mammoth after the race and drove 14 hours back to Leadville, had 18 hours in Leadville, um, which was nice but way too brief. I love Leadville I know, definitely don't. I'd like to stay there longer than that if I could.
Speaker 2:But then jumped on a plane and, yeah, flew to Milan and, uh, had to stay in Verona night actually, cause I screwed up. Oh, I just overlooked the Milan to Cortina travel, which, if anyone's ever in Italy don't, it is not easy to get from Milan to the that side of the Dolomites, um, you can't just get trains easily, like I assumed, so that was just a little bit of a mistake. And then, um, I ended up getting to Cortina Thursday and you know I'd been thinking about running the 50 K. But I decided to do 80 K mainly because it was a day later and also I wanted to do a slightly longer distance, like closer to a 50 mile effort. And thank goodness because there, if that race, if I had to do the 50 K on Friday, I think I would have imploded pretty, pretty majorly. And plus the 50 K field was absolutely stacked. I mean Luca Del Perro and Francesco poopy and um Alex, um or or Bach, who's actually a really good schema racer.
Speaker 2:But anyway, the 80K, I have to admit, was, you know, compared to the 120 and the 50K fields, not quite as stacked, but still a great. That's exactly the distance that I want to start doing a bit more of. It's kind of that great middle ground of. Well, I still think my my um sweet spot is marathons and 50ks. Um, and and don't get me wrong, I mean I love, I love cirque series, I love short, you know, I love kendall. Like these short races are are still super fun and they're a lot more cutthroat. But I I think I've been, I've been doing a ton of six, eight, almost maybe even 10 hour skis in the winter with tons of vert and like that sets you up really well for a 50 mile mountainous effort. So what?
Speaker 1:do you think of the experience, like going out there to race, like obviously it's the home of la sportiva, your sponsor, it's like such a beautiful area, like what was the reception? Like What'd you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, at first it definitely felt I was like I was totally alone. I didn't really feel a ton of support right when I got there. But as soon as I started meeting Italians and you know you're worried, you feel awkward because you don't speak Italian and um, but it doesn't matter because they all speak English amazingly well and um, they are so nice and welcoming and as soon as they, you know, sort of heard my background and I think some of them had been anticipating me being there, but a lot of them didn't know me and so, yeah, it stayed with two guys on the Italian team who one was in the 50k, one was in the 120. Um, shout out, jacopo and Alessio. Great guys, um, gave me a lot of good advice and less Alessio, the guy in the 120. He had done this is like his seventh year at La Vereta, so he knew the course, he gave me all the tips and um, yeah, it was really cool. They're just one big family. You know, la Sportiva is family owned still and and I think that's awesome, I think it's. I mean, I don't know how you feel, I know you're on, you're supported by them as well and, like, I think it's really cool that they cause they make, they can make decisions that a bigger brand won't't be able to, or um, and so, yeah, I got to hang out with them after the race.
Speaker 2:We had a really fun night and they were like, how are you still out, like drinking with us? And I was like, dude, I'm just a normal guy. And they were like explaining like that, if you're performing like this in in europe, you're like a superstar, so you wouldn't even think about staying out late and, like you know, hanging out with employees. And I'm like I don't think you understand in the U S like nobody really cares about this. So, like, don't think of ourselves as like I'm just a normal person. I don't really. So there was one other Italian guy, you know, um, partying it up a little but, um, but yeah, man, time got away from me that night. It was so much fun. They were just, um, really really welcoming and, um, I had an awesome time. I mean, that was definitely part of the like. It seems silly as an athlete to do those squeeze all the racing into an eight day period. But, you know, a major part of the motivation for me was to make the connection with La Sportiva Italy and um see what they're all about.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I gotta be honest with you, dude. When I saw that email from Kelsey, like earlier in the year, I re kick myself for not taking the opportunity and going like I feel like it'll be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah it's I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2:And you know I I'd been to the dolomites two years before that and just terrible weather, and was in the tre chima de labaredo area. Like I should have been able to see the tre chima, the beautiful sort of like spires tower, uh sort of um outcrops, but but I couldn't see anything because it was just fog and rain. And so this time I saw it right after the first climb. We were going straight through that area with that gorgeous view and so I mean it was almost in the beginning it felt like a bit of a sightseeing race and then, uh, and then it got really hard, really quickly.
Speaker 1:So was it super technical course or no?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't actually quickly so was it super technical course or no? I wouldn't, actually wouldn't consider it super technical. It's actually quite runnable but it is also dense with climbing, like definitely lots of climbing, but it's all fairly runnable, I would. I I talked to of several sort of more locals. Uh, martina, um blanking on her last name, she's a, she's an italian, incredible italian schemo athlete, um friends with courtney, and so I was talking to her and she said they actually basically like that course, like skips. They could be technical but it skips a lot of the technicality, um, and sort of goes for like the more runnable road. I mean roads, you know. But yeah there's.
Speaker 2:There were a handful of sections that were like techie, but uh, nothing like new.
Speaker 1:England. I mean, no, that's super cool man. Yeah, sorry, my dog squeaking a toy in the background it's throwing me off. Um, yeah, no I. What a cool experience is. Just what a bad-ass course. Like, well, how did the race unfold for you personally? Like, obviously you got on the podium like were you running by yourself? Were you chasing? Were you with a big group of guys? Like how did that unfold for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, um man, we started out faster at a higher effort than what the broken arrow field felt like in the beginning, which I was looking at, drew holman, I was like what is?
Speaker 2:I'm like this is, this is like too much but yeah, exactly, you know, I sort of anticipated that, but it's like, until you really see it happen, you're like it's just funny because a lot, most of those guys just completely well, they didn't blow up but they just weren't in the race by the fall off, yeah, yeah, but um, it was kind of a douche, douche grade road climb right off the bat. So that might have been part of it too, which, honestly, that's kind of my thing, like I love, you know, mining grade roads. Um, in colorado it sort of ends up actually being something I do a ton. So that was. It felt like my home turf in a way. And then we got onto the trail and by the top of that first climb there was pretty much let's see six or seven of us and nobody was really like breaking away. Drew and I were right there in the mix and I was pleasantly surprised to be in that group. So, cause I sort of figured I would feel it out by the time the top of that first climb happened, I figured I would have a good sense of whether I'm like going for podium or just sort of like taking a sightseeing tour around the lights, you know. But, um, but decided, all right, I think I can hang with these guys and uh, you know, felt like I was not pushing super hard. It was a hard climb, it was steep, but then we had a lot of runnable down after that and I got in, got into a good groove with drew in the it was probably the longest runnable flat section. I was actually like, yeah, super, super chill, slightly downhill, kind of into that first aid, which was like 25 K in Um and drew and I were right together.
Speaker 2:We're actually it was the top four, we're all together. We were. It was really nice to just run with drew and I were right together. We're actually it was the top four, we're all together. We were. It was really nice to just run with drew and, like chat, feel like I was at home a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, I was having a lot of doubts cause that's not my distance and I had. It was like I'm not going to feel good later in the race because of broken arrow. And drew was awesome, he was super encouraging and he just said, like look like if you're hurting some, everyone else is going to be hurting too. Like don't count yourself out. And uh, that was, that was a great confidence boost and it's like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I didn't know Drew, still don't know him super well, but, um, I don't know, I can tell he's a really really nice guy, incredibly humble, and like, yeah, if anyone gets the chance to run with Drew, he's, he's awesome. But um left that aid with Drew and we were in second and third and he pretty much right as we were client right away, as we were climbing out of that aid, like he pulled away, probably, put a, he probably put a minute in a mile on me. Actually I just knew and he had the special um, the special nike shirt that everyone is asked with now after um, caleb's incredible western states performance. Um, but it was funny because now it's fun, like I get to say that I didn't see it because of caleb olsen. I saw it in the middle of a race when Drew put it on and I, I I gave him shit right away. I was like what are you wearing? Like, what are you? Are you a stylist now? Like, are you like? Is this like? Is fashion your new thing? Like he was. But I'm running next to him. So, as soon as I give him crap, I'm running next to him and it's starting to get hot and I'm like literally getting splashed on, like just being near him and I was like, okay, I kind of maybe this thing is.
Speaker 2:And then, sure enough, he just pulls away and talk to him after the race and he said he did just feel really good, he wasn't hot at all and I was starting to feel the heat and, you know, at that point I was realizing, okay, I'm in third, I need to go a pace that is sustainable here, like I need, and I have 29 more miles, like I need to go with. However much more climbing I need to this. Whatever I was going to keep up with drew would have been maybe more of a 50 K effort was what that would have said or what was what I was thinking. So so, yeah, decided to kind of just go my own pace and from then on it was just I was in no man's land the whole rest of the race. Just a gap to a second, and I knew I had a gap behind me to fourth because I couldn't see anyone and just passing 120 K runners and trying not to slow down, trying to stay consistent and eat, and I felt solid I mean I wasn't, it wasn't getting any better, like, but I wasn't fading super hard, I was sort of just waiting for something to sort of hit a wall.
Speaker 2:Got to Colgolino, which is mile or kilometer 56. And my parents were there. I actually had no like specific support plan. I just sort of got what I needed from AIDS and uh, that actually thankfully worked out fine. I'm also lucky that with the altitude advantage, my stomach is not nearly as much of an issue if we're staying below 8,000 or 9,000 feet. So I don't feel like I need super specific nutrition If I'm at altitude. That's a real altitude. Sorry, I know that sounds pretentious, but what are you gonna do? I live in Leadville, sorry, yeah, if it's above 10, then that's a different story, but if it's not, then I think I can sort of get away with like different types of food and not anything super specific. So anyway, parents were just sort of there for moral support and it was awesome. I would be looking forward to that for probably 10 miles, cause I was totally alone and it was just I was beginning to suffer, but not luckily, they didn't see me like totally in the pain cave, I think. Well, they've seen that before, so they know what they're getting into.
Speaker 2:But yeah, after that was when it really started getting rough. There was a long climb out of Colgolina and I was just I was. That was when I was like I might start fading back through the field here and I think it was just strong enough. You know, there was a lot of after that last climb out of Colgolina. There wasn't a ton of climbing left, it was mostly going downhill, but it was just very short, punchy climbs. One in particular that was just soul crushing and more than you expect. Like you know, when an Italian tells you it's all downhill, don't believe them, Cause that's not the case there. Finally, I get to the last coal or pass, and they, I can see cortina and it's like, okay, now it's actually all downhill and I was very relieved.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, that last downhill is the worst of them, like it. It probably at one point felt it felt like we descended 1500 or 2000 feet in a mile, like it reminded, reminded me of Sears and all. I was just like you know, but I was 45 miles in, so it was just, it was awful. I think I stopped straight up, stopped on that really steep section, cause I just yeah, I just the pain was too bad and I must have lost time there quite a bit on Drew and Dominicic, and then probably fourth was starting to catch me. But I just had a big enough gap and, um, luckily, as soon as it mellowed out and got more runnable, I just ran it in and, you know, I hit the streets of cortina and then you're, there's no pain, you're, you know you're right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, what a race. That's crazy. Would you like better? Do you like? Uh, do you think you'll go back and do something like that if we have the opportunity to in the future?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I might actually want to do the 50 K? Um in the future, especially if I'm not, you know, back to backing it like I did this year. Um um I. In terms of which were you going to ask about broken arrow versus Lava Rado?
Speaker 1:Yeah, now that you've got to see like two loops on broken arrow yeah, I mean, course-wise, labaredo hands down.
Speaker 2:I mean it's epic, it's, it's absolutely insane. Anyone who's racing the dolomites knows what I'm talking about. It's just, I mean I I need to go back and soak it in and actually enjoy the views. I mean, every single time I got to a pass, I'm just blown away like absolutely spectacular scenery, um, but race wise, broken arrow for sure, way more competitive, way more cutthroat. Like I was running scared, much more scared at the end of broken arrow than I was at the end of Labaredo, um, but you know, at the same time, like there was less on the line once I had that performance at broken arrow, so that was definitely huge.
Speaker 2:Like I think going into any race feeling like you have nothing to lose is a very good position to be in, and if you ever think a competitor has that mentality, you should look. You should look out, because they're going to sandbag you and say, oh, there's nothing, I don't really care, there's nothing to lose. You should watch out, for whoever this says is saying because, yeah, I, I had an inkling that it could go well, but I, especially with the international travel, um, you know, I, yeah, I mean I was pretty good that week, though, even though I was traveling a lot. I you know I'm the kind of person that I enjoy beer, like I like having a beer or two a night kind of thing, nothing crazy. But I didn't drink at all that week. I was like I need to.
Speaker 2:Prior, I was all about recovery. It was all okay, I had one beer the night before just to like settle the nerves. But compared to my normal routine, that was a big change and I think it makes a difference. I think, you know, I mean maybe I should do that all the time, except that won't happen. I mean I like I like my, my little, my small pleasures in life. I think it's important to like have a balance, but but yeah, for certain specific timeframes, just really really going all in and like on recovery. I think that helped, um, and but yeah, mostly it was, it was the confidence from the winter and um, and really I mean the confidence from broken arrow was was a big thing too.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting. I got to ask you about the training question, man, and this is something that's been. It's just like on my mind and something I bring up to a lot of people, cause it's a constant debate, because you live so high up, right and my. My question with living so high up is is like, when you get to these races at lower altitudes, your ability to generate power, and it's like that's not an issue for someone like you, and cam has the same thing. Cam doesn't have a problem with being able. Obviously, cam spends like weeks in the gym.
Speaker 1:I don't know what your schedule is like and how you're able to do it, but like it's just interesting to me seeing guys come from higher altitudes and still being able to perform really well, like you've got that advantage obviously from like a, almost like a your ability to utilize oxygen, but also it's the ability to generate power, which has me so, so perplexed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't, I'm not going to lie Like I don't do a ton of extra stuff. I think I could benefit from that. Um, you know, one of the factors for me is that I, you know, my job in the winter is ski patrol and I do think, first of all, I think Schemo in general sort of builds power regard, like, even if you're at high altitude, I think you can generate, or you can I'm building muscle groups that are good for generating power in running, just because I'm doing that much vert all the time I mean in previous winters. So the way I generally measure volume in the winter is I generally measure volume by hours, but in the winter I focus a little bit more on vert because that seems to sort of be more relevant. And then in the summer it's a combo of those of mileage hours and vert for running. But in this winter I in previous winters I've been able. So I do.
Speaker 2:I work four day weeks and I have a split week. So I work two days on two days, two days on one day off, two days on two days off. So on the and that's specific, like my boss allowed me to do that because I'm an athlete Um, if I worked less than four, I wouldn't get paid, so that's not an option for me. But um, um, the what allows me to do is on those days off I can do long those six to eight hour skis, and that's pretty much what I was doing. I mean six to eight hours once a week and then on the other days I'm doing, you know, minimum two to four, with probably more intensity, um, some some hard climbing at some point.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say most of my intensity comes from just hard climbs and that's what motivates me. I try to focus on what. What really motivates me is like interesting terrain. I really like finding um big climbs and just dialing them in. I mean, at first it was kind of Albert in the summer I would dial in Albert, you know everything you might just went, rogue completely went up, no, um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, likebert's been a staple of mine. I found some really great terrain in Camp Hale or outside of Camp Hale. A lot of people don't know that area. It's more, there's more snowmobile traffic but there's a ton of because of that. They have good groomed terrain. Good groomed like trails and like um, I can, so I don't have to always break trail and I'm almost always training on my 65 underfoot schema set up. So cause it's just the lightest.
Speaker 2:And I've been able to find some like 2000 to two and a half thousand foot climbs that are super, um, just good for training, like not crazy steep but like steep enough that I can really get some good power output. And then, yeah, I'm honestly not in the gym much, but I do think Schemo kind of I think Cam might agree a little bit here like schema builds strength in a very specific way, especially with a polling, like it keeps my upper body engaged, it keeps it keeps my aerobic system a little bit more diverse, I guess, if you want to, if that's, if that's even a thing. Again, I'm self coach, so I'm kind of talking, talking out of my ass a little here Like I don't it's, it's you got, you get the four you figure out the formula that works for you.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting, yeah, and I think that is huge. I think any coach sort of knows that, um, but um yeah. So basically not really in the gym a ton, I don't do a ton of specific stuff there, but I do think I get sort of like inherent strength from the activities I'm doing on ski patrol, like if I'm running a patient down the Hill in a toboggan that's two or 300 pounds behind me that I have to support and control, and I do think there's sort of inherent strength there. I also think being on your feet all day I mean I've used the term ghost volume before because it doesn't I'm not going to record everything on Strava at work, and so I sort of think that get volume, uh, or at least maintain a baseline of fitness Cause in so so. So I guess, going back to winter volume for a second to be, the big difference this season was I was probably doing more like maybe 10, 10 grands avert a week, maybe 15 in previous winters, whereas this winter it was pretty much always closer to 20,000 feet, which ended up being, you know, 10 to 15 hours, um, and on top of the four day work week and so probably essentially a 50% increase in volume compared to previous winters and that I do think that that that amount of volume has transferred to running incredibly well this year.
Speaker 2:And I had the feeling in May, when I was sort of doing my major transition towards running and mountain running, I just started feeling like climbing was really good, like I just nothing was crazy. I never you know nothing was super sexy about it. Like it was just sort of like oh, that felt good, that felt solid, and maybe it wasn't even my fastest segment that I've ever done on that, whatever climate it was, but it would just be like pretty close to the fastest and significantly less effort than I felt in the past. So I had an inkling that the climbing was going well, but no it. I had a ton of doubt, going into broken arrow, I mean, I think I think even those top three guys for sure like yeah, yeah, yeah, looking at a field like that, you just it's a roll of the dice, you really have no idea. Um, but it's exciting.
Speaker 2:And like I think if the major takeaway for me was like focus on yourself, you know, like don't get caught up in no offense podcasts, you know it's easy to get like roped into media and hearing what other people are doing I think it's great to listen to, but don't let that influence your, your routine and what the things that you know get you fit, cause I think anyone at my level knows what gets them fit, like whether you're coached or not. You gotta know yourself coached or coached by someone else. But but yeah, um, yeah, focus on your process because everyone's slightly different and you know we're it's a young sport Like we're. We don't, we're not dialed in like cycling or road running or track running where, like, everyone knows exactly what it is. We're just not that developed yet.
Speaker 2:So so it's great, it's, it's awesome. It's a really cool time to figure out. You know what works. And I think one thing like it's cool to see, like Nordic skiing, that that background clearly has something about. There's something about that kind of background that translates into um, you know mountain running and trail running, um, and I think schema is sort of right. In that same vein, um, and people are just discovering that in the U? S, I mean um, you know, euros have been doing it for decades, but um, anyway, sorry, no, dude, you're on it.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot. There's so much to unpack out of that. I think number one dude, it's funny I don't, I don't really listen to, like I don't look. Well, first off, I definitely don't listen to my own podcast, but like I don't really consume running media just because, like you get a lot of advice and a lot of it's bullshit and a lot of it just doesn't work for you. You have to find what works for you. That's the first.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, you think you're totally right and you could take probably. Well, I know Ryan's on skis a little bit, but like Eli's not really on skis at all, right, and like different dudes get different, like everybody gets fit for a race in so many different ways. Some people are on the bike, schemo either. I'm just. I think it works for me and it clearly works for other guys and I think one of the things that's huge is the mental mix-up, like I ran year-round in college.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know the track cross-country grind, and if I were still still doing that well, I wouldn't be running. I don't think it's just at the end of the winter I get really excited for running, and then at the end of the fall I get really excited for Ski Mo again, and that seasonality approach has always worked for me. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's very common. And, like you see, like you know, I think Jim in a lot of ways made that more well known when he made his video about UTMB. Right, he did like when it goes to Europe he may does a full schema season and then kind of goes into running, and I think that opened a lot of people I guess you could say normies is probably the right word open to eyes, to like people that aren't really in the sport to kind of see or maybe they're in a sport to to a certain extent, to see, like how some of that works.
Speaker 2:so it's interesting I mean, we're such a diverse sport. It's really exciting. You can come into it from so many different angles and I think hopefully people can just see that there's a lot of different ways to skin the cat right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah well, this is, this is where I was going with this. So, and just because this is out of pure curiosity from a training perspective, obviously for race, like broken arrow, like you need turnover. Like you, it's a running. You're not really hiking at all, it's a run. You're running most, pretty much every step of that course. Are you? When you're transitioning off the skis onto running again, are you hitting track workouts? Like, what are you doing for turnover and run economy? Are you just playing in the mountains, just running? For For the most part, that's incredible.
Speaker 2:I mean I do strides. I think strides are. Strides are great. I always could do a little bit more of them. Um, yeah, I struggle a lot with this, the extra stuff and uh, you know it's possible. What I'm doing isn't like I feel like it's sustainable right now, but maybe in a couple of years I look back and I'm like man, this was not, it didn't, I wasn't doing enough extra work. I do find, as I'm getting older I mean I just turned 30, like you know, you do have to put a bit more work in.
Speaker 2:Recovery isn't as easy as it used to be, but I think what's not getting any worse is the overall volume. I call it historic volume. You've probably heard that term, but you just keep building on it and it gives you this reserve that you can always fall back on, even if you get injured for a long time and you're out. I mean I know you're coming back from an injury right now. You know how that goes, but the the more background you have in just being active and living. It doesn't even need to be training, like living an active lifestyle. I mean I did two years of like just sort of seasonal, like ski instructing and summer camp work. I was active, I was outside all the time but I wasn't training and I and I needed that mental break from from college, um, but I do think I do think my college background and just like competitive the sort of that traditional pedigree, as you might say like I ran D three. I ran at Williams college, so it was not not not at all like crazy competitive, but but I had my four, I had a lot of formal running training and I had a great high school coach and a great college coach who who taught me a lot about training structure and running economy and I think I think those years improved my running economy amazingly well, Um, and and I do think that I in some ways haven't lost that Um, but yeah, I do think strides are important.
Speaker 2:I think if you're not going to do track work and you want to be running well, yeah, like marathons and 50 Ks or shorter, you know you really need to be at least doing strides because it just it gives you that snap and you need to have some neuro muscular work basically, and I think I could do a lot more of that. I mean, that's a huge area of improvement that that I could could work on Um but uh, but I also, you know, I did golden trail for the last two years and I struggled man Like and I think that was part of it, I think by the end of last year. So I placed 32nd in the world ranking, which is just outside of the top 30, which means you don't get invited back the next year, and so I took it as a. I was pretty bummed, honestly, and then, and then I started taking realizing it was an opportunity to to move on and and move into these distances that I feel like are more that suit me better.
Speaker 2:Um, but also, um, I think part of the reason I was struggling to compete in golden trail, like I was I was hanging but I wasn't, I wasn't knocking it out of the park ever um is because I'm I I don't do as much speed work and, to be honest, um, speed work or specific workout structures and stuff like that Maybe it's just that I haven't done enough in the or lately, but it doesn't excite me the same way I.
Speaker 2:I try to focus a lot more on what's motivating me, like if I'm doing a workout and I'm not in it mentally, I mean I'm not going to, that's, that's, it doesn't even matter what the workout is, I'm not going to get whatever benefit I'm looking for, whereas if I'm running a hard climb in a beautiful place and I'm excited about the terrain I'm in, I mean I did a couple of weeks in the Eastern Sierra before Broken Arrow, partly supporting my girlfriend on her through hike and partly training, and I was just loving it. I was just like smashing these huge climbs and being like just in total awe of the scale of the Eastern Sierra. And I think that being excited for training mentally matters a lot more than whatever specific how much zone four are you doing or how much? I just don't think. For me, at least, those details don't matter as much as the sort of mental drive to get out the door every day and to go kick ass, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, dude, whatever you're doing is working, bro, so don't change it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess it is. But again, it's like it is easy to look at other people's stuff and think what am I doing wrong? So, anyway, stuff and think what, what am I doing wrong?
Speaker 1:so. So I know I don't like, like we said, there's there's more than so many different ways to skin a cat, so many different ways to get a fit for a race and do stuff like that. That's so interesting on the golden trail side man like I I mean, obviously I know, like you know, you got your gary corcoran's of the world like that come from such a traditional gary garrett, yeah, wild boy, um, you know just, uh, like he comes from such a traditional background in the sense of like the you know the d1 and everybody's different sub four in the mile.
Speaker 1:he's so fucking and like you know what dude. The funny thing about him too is like like I I wish I could be, at least I don't know. I don't know garrett super well, like if I'm on the pod I know him, but like I don't know him like a like a friend, friend know him, but like he comes across like very nonchalant, like he just like is very relaxed about it, whereas like that's just interesting to me where you get people that are the total opposite, that are like super professional and super serious, and our sports just at a crossroads where you get so many different kinds of people, especially like on the golden trail side, which is interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have to shout out Garrett too, cause he, he, he made those two years on golden trail far more enjoyable. Like I think some of the euros on that circuit started seeing us as the as the party American boys or whatever. But like I'm not, I'm not, this isn't everything in my life. You know what I mean. This isn't, this isn't all that matters to me. And I have ski patrol, I have a great community in Leadville, like if races don't go well, it's okay, it's not a huge deal.
Speaker 2:And I think he's in that mindset too. Like because he also came from that crazy track background. Like I think that is a nice sort of perspective that you get from track is, if you do have it, that background, especially a D1 background, you know where you stand. Like we're not Olympic track runners here, you know. I think even look at, like Chris Myers, you know the small boy thing Like that comes from being in Boulder and realizing that. Put it in perspective. Like we're trail runners, we're not all of that, you know, we're not like making millions of dollars here. Like so don't take it so seriously. Like have fun with it. I mean, who knows, in 20 years we this might not be possible. You know we might. We might be fully so professional that if you have two beers a night you're not competing. You know, like and sure that's, it'll be I'll. I'll watch it from my armchair and like laugh on TV at that point yeah sure, and that's that's probably going to be cool.
Speaker 2:But I think we're also diverse enough that you know we're. Hopefully we can hang on to this sort of the grassroots nature of it too. And anyway, garrett embodies that really well, I think, and I mean he was. You know he has a hip injury right now and like couldn't finish the four to six K which you know he's never DNF and it's so. It's so hard to to DNF in a big race like that, especially when everyone's talking about you and how you're a big contender.
Speaker 2:And then, instead of going in, like like anyone would have been reasonable to do, go, go sulk and hide or or not want to be around the finish. He's right there, he's high-fiving me, he's sending out PBRs. Like I was going to say he was at the bar with Michelino, yeah. Like I was gonna say he's at the bar with michelino, yeah. I mean it's just so done with michelino. He's not racing because he's injured, but he's there and he's cheering people on and having a good time and like that's, that's the. Those are the people you want to be around, you know so no, I love it, man.
Speaker 1:I think that and that's, that's the embodiment of the sport that I enjoy. I gotta ask you this like where do you want the sport to go? Like what direction? Because, like, we see this dichotomy now, where there's like this ultra professionalism and I just still think that like, yeah, I know there's like six figure contracts getting thrown around out of people, but it's like, even with that, to me I think we're still not a very like serious sport and I don't think it should be. I think it's about, first and foremost, at least to me, sport, and I don't think it should be. I think it's about, first and foremost, at least to me, the way I feel, like it's about the mountain culture and like embodying that and like having fun in the mountains and doing your best to test yourself in the mountains, and that's what it should be. But I don't know. You tell me no I'm.
Speaker 2:For me, it's all about being out in the mountains as much as possible and and and just, there's so many things about that. I think you get it in other sports right Hikers, get it. Skiers, I mean, I'm more, I'm almost more, of a skier than a runner, probably, but um it, the mountains make you feel small and it gives you a humility that I mean. Mountaineers know this more than anyone, right it, just you are not. I'm never out there being like I smashed that climb. So now I have conquered this mountain, like, if anything, the harder I smash a climb or put an effort in in the mountains, the more humbled I feel. I'm just feeling like lucky to have escaped, uh, lucky to have been in a cool place, um, and not gotten injured or gotten in crazy weather. Um, you know, plenty of times I have gotten into it, crazy weather and, um, I mean, my thing is speed, is safety in the mountains, honestly. But in terms of trail running as a sport, I think I you know I do want to see it in the Olympics. I think it absolutely deserves a place in the Olympics. I think it's probably going to look like other sports where there's an Olympic discipline of trail and that's. I think that's fine, right, it, um, it, it. It allows for more eyes and more diversity and the sport's going to grow because of that. I mean it's already growing because of things like Golden Trail, and I think Greg Vollet has a great vision with that. He wants to give the IOC a good example of what trail could look like in the Olympics and the flower format an amazing idea, I think that's. He knows from the mountain bike how the Olympics changed mountain biking, that we don't want the same, the same loop over and over because that's just pretty lame and uh. But even if that is the case right, hopefully it isn't even if it is that it will be the Olympic discipline, it's not going to be all of trail. It's not.
Speaker 2:I think people have. I've heard people make arguments of and you know I was in that boat too at first when I thought about the Olympics, um, or trail being in the Olympics. You know it's like, oh no, I don't, I wouldn't want that. But I think that I've come around to like we could use, we could, definitely it'd be. It would be really cool to see the sport grow, keep growing the way it, the way it has been.
Speaker 2:I think I think we should just celebrate our diversity and the fact that we can have yeah, the fact that we can have, you know, hundreds of thousands of people watching the Cocodona 250 live stream and then, a couple of weeks later, the same number of people watching the Cocodona 250 live stream and then, a couple weeks later, the same number of people watching Broken Arrow or Western States. I mean, there's just so many different things to get excited about. You know, honestly, I do feel like it's coming around now, but ultras, ultra running and ultras in general have taken the limelight in terms of media um, in a bit too much. I think it actually has taken away from development of sub ultra and I don't even think we should call like even the fact that we need to say the word sub ultra because we have to. Everything has to be in relation to ultra, I mean um you know that I like this is this is and this is a hot take.
Speaker 2:There are going to be people that disagree with me here. But look, ultra running is not that competitive. It is competitive in two races Western States and UTMB Okay, but and I'm not like Western in both those races are incredibly competitive. Um, when you're winning a race by hours, it's not. It's a race, sure, but it's not competitive. And you can even just do the math, you can normalize for distance. You know it's, it's, it's just not. It's a newer sport. There's less people involved, there's less people that want to destroy their bodies in that way.
Speaker 2:And I think but I think what's happened has media has focused so much on these ultra events because, you know, there is, I think there's like maybe more potential for storytelling. But I think it's just this weird sort of bias is, particularly in the U S, towards ultra running. I mean, I, I I've gotten pressure from previous sponsors that are set have told me well, we would love to just see you get top 10 at western and I'm like, no, I'm gonna go represent the us for the 40k team at worlds and then and the they don't know what that even means and it's a shame. It really is like these brands. Some of these brands in particular, need to wake up and realize that the competitive sub ultra scene is where you're going to find future competitive ultra runners.
Speaker 2:Like what do you think is going to happen when the East Africans decide to move up to a hundred miles? Like, do you think Western's going to be over 13 hours? No, they're going to get a cool year and they're going to run insanely fast because it's a track. Okay, sorry, I know there's climbing in Western. You know I don't want to go too far, it's not very technical.
Speaker 2:It's not technical at all, no, it's it's Cali carpet for sure, but there is a lot of climbing, you can't. You can't deny that, even though it's net downhill. Um, but I'm race. Um, um, I think it's really cool how competitive it is and the history around it, but I think we obsess over it too much. To be honest, I think I get a little tired of seeing all the Western stuff and, hey, I want to run it someday too, don't get me wrong. Um, I think when I run it I'll understand the race better and I'll have a better perspective.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think if we're going to get more people into this sport, we should be promoting things closer to Golden Trail. You know, not everyone has to be running these crazy fast times, but it's like who's going to look at a hundred and be like I want to run a hundred now, like it's? It's just. First of all, it's unfair. You shouldn't just jump into running and run a hundred miles, but you can easily jump into a trail half or a trail 10 K or something, like Cirque I mean, julian Carr and what he's doing with Cirque is incredible.
Speaker 2:Like those races should be more. There should be more eyes on those races, I think, than there are, and so, anyway, that's, that's my, my rants and I'll I'll end it there. I still respect a lot of American ultra runners, but I also think they're lingering in this weird time period where it just hasn't gotten that competitive yet and they have these big egos that are overblown by the media. Um, anyway, sorry ultra runners, look out, you know, like sub ultra guys are coming and it's, it's not going to slow down.
Speaker 1:So well, that's the thing dude like. And when start these dudes start moving up? Because that's the thing like it is. We all know how All right, Broken Arrow, 46K, probably the best example Most of those guys have not run 100 miles. Most of those guys are kind of in between the 50K and down distance, more or less. You see Eli now who's moving up and has moved up. He'll go to CCC. Dude Eli's going to absolutely wipe the floor with everybody at CCC.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we'll see, I Eli's going to absolutely wipe the floor with everybody at CCC. Yeah, I mean, we'll see. I think he's respecting the distance. I think that's always, you know, anyone jumping up in distance you have to write like, but I think, um, yeah, I, I, I'm curious to see how he goes. For sure, um, I think I think I agree with you, I gonna, he's gonna content. Eli's the kind of guy he's not gonna go into a race without trying to win the race. He's, he knows he's that good and and he should be trying to do that, you know he's. I think jim took that mentality, has taken that mentality too, and I think eli should is totally capable of that as well so yeah, and to your point too, with brands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, it's. And this is this actually goes to the ryan becker subject, because I've talked to ryan so many times about this where it's the, the why am I not sponsored conversation? But it's like, at the same time, it's like you can be the most consistent, one of the most consistent athletes in in the sub-ultra category or kind of that 50k distance and down. But then, for instance, someone goes in, I don't know maybe like gets on the podium of black canyon right, but it's done, it's dropped a bunch of races before, not even done that much goes and gets on the podium of black canyon randomly.
Speaker 2:And then they and wind up with a contract for the toka or whatever it's like what the fuck I think francesco poopy was really cool to see that he turned down his golden ticket, golden state's ticket, whatever it is Probably would have won too this year.
Speaker 2:Sure, he could have yeah, certainly mixed it up with those guys, I think. But his point, one of his points, was that my vision of trail running is not Western state centric, and I think that's it's. So it was almost a relief for me to hear that, because he's such a big figure and for him to make that point was just it was like thank God, someone's finally someone with that kind of following, is finally speaking up about how Western States is. It's like not all that, all that it is. I mean, it's just there's so much more to do than go run downhill through hot canyons in the heat of the summer. I mean um, um, but uh, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think another thing that I thought was interesting about francesco's story is he was talking about laverado in this context of. I think it was what. A couple years ago he won the 50k for the first time and just ran insane like huge course record, like he was, and so I I was. Before I heard this, I had this mentality of this. This sub ultra or this ultra bias is in mostly in the in America, but he was saying, well, he felt like a lot of the. He'd been on golden trail for several years before that, just crushing it like making podiums and like running with the best in the world in sub ultra, and then, of course, figured he could have a chance for the win and the course record at Lava Rado. But a lot of people in Italy didn't respect him that much and then all of a sudden, as soon as he wins Lava Rado 50 K, there's all this respect and media hype and attention and he was like well, I, I don't know how you didn't like for him. It's like how did you not see it coming? You know, and I think anyone who is a huge fan of his probably felt the same way Like he was going to do that, you know, and like I think you know someone who's like if you don't know who, eli Hemming, I mean, who doesn't at this point? But you know, if you're overlooking Eli Hemming and CCC, I mean, you figure, figure it out, cause you're good luck. Yeah, he's gonna, he's gonna crush and and I think, yeah, we're just seeing that happening more and more.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, it's, there's a new wave, uh, coming in. That that is that is spending their time in the short races while they're young and doing because, first of all, you can race more. I mean, geez, I mean I'm, you know, I want to race more than less. If I can't, if I run hundreds, I can race maybe three times a year and that's probably even a bit much so. So racing more, um, training, you know, training, that that higher intensity, I think when you're young, I mean absolutely it's great It'll come in handy in those ultras when you're older. And then, and then moving more gradually into ultra.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things about that ultra bias that's so damaging is you're seeing people come right out of college and go straight to a hundred K, a hundred miler, and it's not even their fault. Like they're they're being incentivized by these brands to do that. Like if all the brand cares about is top 10 at Western, you're going to force young athletes into a hundred miles that's what's going to happen. And like it's a shame because they could be crushing Golden Trail. They could be crushing 50Ks. You know they could make the short trail 40K team Like, and so I think it's wasted talent, you know it's so, but I also do think it's better than it was 10 years ago. Like there's, you know, and and partly like I think you know, to be clear, james, like your pod is helping with that, um because? And the sub hub as well, like having things focused specifically on shorter trail running, or mountain running as it's called in Europe and as it should be called in the U S um you know, yeah, it's, uh, it's.
Speaker 2:It's good to see more eyes on that part of the sport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a big opportunity. Man is like where we can continue to um just get more eyes on this section of the sport, if you will. Just because listen, man, like there was one thing about like it drove me nuts like a when they put their stuff out there about I started so much shit. Um, by accident, I wasn't really trying to. They like put like their favorites out, their favorite picks for the ascent, and I was like, dude, where the fuck is joe gray? Like you're not gonna have joe gray on your favorites? Like what is? What are we doing here? Like, are you kidding me? Yeah, let's somebody, somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a great point of, or the Joe gray point always has to be brought up in these, in the discussion of of the ultra bias, because I think he's suffered from that bias and I don't know if he feels this way, but I think he suffered from it significantly and but it's also that he's so consistently good. You know, he's just always there and so people just expect that. But if you take any one of those performances, I mean he was what is he? 41, 42. I think he's 41.
Speaker 1:Yeah 41.
Speaker 2:He was second in that ascent. That's 41. Yeah, 41. He was second in that ascent. That's incredible. Like if he, if that was just his first time showing up and doing that, that would have been a huge story. But it's Joe gray. So they're like oh well, you know, that's Joe gray, that's what he does and it's like he does not. He gets so little credit and it's such a shame.
Speaker 2:Like he's a huge advocate for diversity in the sport first of all. Like he's a huge advocate for diversity in the sport first of all, which is awesome. It's amazing for him to, you know, be giving that sort of get it, giving that perspective on the sport. And also I love that he's always like I'm only going to race if there's prize money. Like that's awesome. I mean it's he's a professional, he's making money. He needs to make money. If you're not going to offer him, if yeah, that's what he always says and that's a great point. Like he's not messing around here.
Speaker 2:He he acts like a track runner in trail, as he should, because he's at that level and there's a reason he's made every world's team since 2008 without even doing a resume spot. Like he is the goat, if you talk about goats and trail running and you mentioned jim before you mentioned joe. I'm going to disagree with you. Like Jim, joe, joe gray comes before Jim. I'm sorry, like and I would, maybe Jim agrees, but either way, um, yeah, there's, it's because he has stayed in those shorter races and he's proving like and I think Max King proves this as well Like you can, you can make that your career now, like and and well, and maybe 10 years ago that wasn't the case, but but you can. You don't have to move up to ultra. You can stay in the short trail and continue crushing all the way into your forties. Andy Wacker's starting to do that now. Like competing, I mean, andy creates his own competition, basically with the trail team, um, which is a whole different, interesting topic, I think. But but yeah, it's um, you know, I I don't think. Going back to your free trail point, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I think dylan is is celebrating diversity in a in a good way. I think maybe five years ago I would agree he did focus too much on ultras, but I think he's well, in some ways it's impossible to ignore now. I mean right, like with, with guys moving up the way they are and crushing in in ultra, having had um short mountain running careers um, the you can't even ignore it. And so I think, um, yeah, I think their bias is is becoming less and less, and I think he does a good job of celebrating our diversity in trail running and he does sort of have to talk about everything, um, because he has these all more specific media groups now, but like, but, yeah, um, and also that is his background, like that's his bread and butter. I mean, you know that hard rock performance he had, uh, I forget what year like oh amazing dude 2021, something like that it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was one or two. It was right after COVID, so it must've been one. Oh my God, chasing for a swan. Yeah, dude, yeah.
Speaker 2:But so yeah, but he was an ultra specific guy, um, and, and did that very well for a decade and, uh, and that's what he knows as an athlete. But I think he's also a total super fan, like he definitely gets. He knows the names, he gets into it, you know, um. So so yeah, I and I think in some ways he follows the trends and that sort of is like, if the trends on ultra, then you know you focus on ultra, but but no one he can ignore the Western States week. It's just impossible. It's it's. They just shove it down your throat and it's um, it's.
Speaker 2:I just feel like I'd rather see that field compete in, like Lava Redo or something interesting, not not the Western States course, even though, again, I'm not saying I don't respect the history around it. It's cool that it's the first hundred miler in the world. It's amazing and that it used to be a horse race, and you know, I'm not saying I know everything about that race, but the history is awesome. I think the way it's focused on now is a little bit much, but yeah no, I think it's amazing.
Speaker 1:One thing I will say is the way that we fix this dude and I'm not that this will ever happen, but we just need, like the athletes as a whole, we just it should just be a different championship course every year, like a different like, or maybe like one of three, right Like. One year is UTMB, one year is La Verado, one year is this, one year is that, and they just, or you know, la Reunion or the Grand Raid or whatever. Oh, yeah. That would be a sweet one, right, because?
Speaker 1:it's super hot, Like different, you know, and I think they all you know, have a degree of technicality to them.
Speaker 1:Obviously, utmb is a little bit less of an extent to like, you know, compared to like a reunion or something like that, but that's where the championship is, and then the athletes show up there and kind of throw down, as opposed to it always being one place or one thing. Yeah, I agree, dude, and like. The one thing I'll end on this one when it comes to bashing media is it's like and I love Finn, like Finn's a friend of mine and like I, I like. It's like how many, because I'm guilty of this too with pre-race interviews. I'm just starting to get into doing more of them but it's like how many different media outlets have to have the same person on twice to like talk about the same fucking thing before western stays, and it's like everybody's doing the same thing maybe communicate and split it up more something or do something different.
Speaker 1:I don't know, like I don't, but that's why you know I don't even I follow it. I'm like aware of it, but you know, as far as like getting in there and like the nitty gritty, it's like man, we need something different. So I don't know. I got to ask you this what's what's next for you this summer?
Speaker 2:So I'm doing a few of these Cirque races. I'll do snowbird, uh, next week, um, and then I'll do alieska and then um. The next a race is sierras and all uh, going back there I have it's just a man after experiencing it last year and feeling like I had a good race but didn't totally nail it, I definitely want to try to go back and kind of nail it a bit more, um, I mean, I mean always a fun excuse to go to Switzerland again and the Alps and um, and get cut my teeth with the euros once more. Um, and then um, yeah, and then we'll see about. I'll find out pretty soon here. I'm hopeful for a world's bid, um, if that's the case, that'll be the end of September. Um, and then that's. If that's, if I do end up on that team, then that'll sort of be my last major race, I think. Um, and then sort of, yeah, start gearing back up for schema in the winter.
Speaker 1:So nice man, I'm excited to see you at series and all I think that'll be. You know now that you've raced it once or twice before already you said Just last year, yeah, just last year. All right, so you know the course. Like such a fast, fun race, like obviously that's kind of more or less the sub ultra, like mountain running, like championship in a lot of ways in its own right more competitive trail race period.
Speaker 2:Actually, um, I think it's, it's been there and it's just what's what it really is cool that it's the same every year and that you can compare your times directly to all these greats that have run it. I mean, I got to shake killian's hand after he got the record last year, like I will never forget that moment. You know that was so cool to like be in the same race. I mean, not like it was actually. You know, he was just like um in his own race. Uh, or those, those, those front guys were but uh, but just being on the start line with with him is is amazing and uh, um, I think it's a cool mix. It's. It is actually tech. There's some technical aspect to it. It's not. It's not totally smooth as I, as I originally heard, but it's. Yeah, it's that crazy. It's like combining.
Speaker 2:I think when you train for Sierra's and all and you and you race it. Well, you, you have to become very good at transitioning from super steep, like hard you know big watt climbing to just gunning it on flat terrain, and that that skill is will take you very far in trail running, like, if you can, if you can climb hard and then also run hard on flat terrain or rolling terrain. Um, it, yeah it, it serves you very well. So, you know, I mean you've probably, you know, obviously, the the Killian, um, you know, training regime, for that is definitely something I like. I I try to do a couple of workouts where I'm doing a one or two hard climbs mixed in with some flat tempo effort, um, on on super flat terrain. Um, luckily there's plenty of areas to do that in around leadville and um, and I think it's, yeah, almost like in some ways, like it's an a race. But I also almost wanted to do this because it's just so good for my training to focus on a race like that.
Speaker 2:So, um, nice yeah, I'm psyched for that dude.
Speaker 1:so let me ask you this if you, uh, if worlds becomes a thing for you it sounds like it very I mean, it's very possible, like I'd say more likely than not would you stay out there after series and all, or would you come back to America and then go back out again?
Speaker 2:I'd come back, I'd make Sears and all a quick one, cause then I'll have still over a month um back here before, or maybe a little under like three weeks. But but, yeah, man, um, you know, I I've been traveling a lot more of the last few summers, um, with golden trail and then, um, just it seems to just continue. Um, every time I get back to Leadville I want to stay. I don't want to go again, I don't want to leave again and be living in the mountains in Colorado. You probably kind of get this. Just like I want to take advantage in our short summer season. I mean, I, I love the snow, don't get me wrong, but the ease of access in the mountains in the summer is so fleeting, it's so, you know.
Speaker 2:I was talking to Anton Krupicka in Italy about this. Like you, you're gone for just even a couple of days and you're just it's so hard to not think about like, oh man, I'm missing out. Like I want to get back and do this, this and this and all these things. So, so I always have that feeling. But yeah, at this point, um, I'm not trying to complain either.
Speaker 2:It's just sort of a different, um, something very special. Definitely, yeah, it's nice to miss, miss home. It means I'm in a good place, and then, um, it's definitely just a new routine for me with all this international travel. I'm I'm still um adjusting to it, so yeah, not for sure, dude.
Speaker 1:I mean, I get you, man, I've been away, for I and it's like man, I'm itching. I cannot wait to get back to Colorado. It's not that I don't love being out here, it's amazing. But that said, there's just something very special about the high mountains. I mean being in the springs.
Speaker 2:geez, the access is awesome. It's such an amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, let me ask you this. So one more question for you before I let you go being in Vermont or growing up in Vermont, or like living growing up in Vermont, like do you have any, like anything you want to go back out Like maybe just like nail a Prezi traverse I know we were kind of just talking about that a little bit before or like any, any FKTs or anything big you want to come to do out?
Speaker 2:here. Uh, great question, there's definitely FKTs I want to go after around here. I haven't, like seriously, uh, made a list or anything like that yet. But yeah, uh, made a list or anything like that yet. But yeah, having done the prezzy, now easy, uh, it was, man, I respect the hell out of jack kunzel's time now. Oh, my goodness, that 338 is.
Speaker 2:That is a crazy route to do that kind of time on, mainly because it's just so technical, like the, the trail itself. I mean there's parts that are more runnable but like pretty sustained technicality the whole time, and to run that fast you have to be like full striding most of it, which, I'm not going to lie, I don't know. I think I would have to be out here for at least a handful of weeks and really dial in my like New England technical running. I think someone like Dan Kurtz knows exactly what I'm talking about. Like it's just a different thing and you need you need time to get used to it. Um, pemi loop is another one. I think that might be more of my wheelhouse. Well, both Prezi and Pemi loop, but Pemi maybe just cause it's longer. Um, might, might suit me a little better, being slightly slower these days. Um, or not, as not as quick as I was in my golden trail years, but, um, and then there's actually.
Speaker 2:So, uh, my family goes out and visits, uh, this island out in Penobscot Bay in Maine.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's not an FKT, but it's sort of it's in the Acadia Acadia national park area and if you, if anyone's familiar with it, there's sort of it's in the acadia acadia national park area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you, if anyone's familiar with it, there's a super, super rugged coastlines that are like, uh, granite, um, and just like very steep and like, um, some of it's like hundred foot granite cliffs, you know, and uh, that's what rings this island that I've been going out to since I was a kid and I've always I've done a lot of sections of coastline, um, running and sort of it was more rock hopping but and there's great trails that I that you can connect to the coast, but I've, I've, I've always wanted to do like the full loop around the entire Island just on the rocks, and uh, I think it would be like, I mean the there's a road around the island that's like 13 miles, but I think the coast route would be like close to a hundred miler, like it's, so it's so rugged and like so there's some things like that. It's more just like project based stuff. And then I would love to do like kismet cliff, um some of the Tom Hooper races. I mean he does a great job.
Speaker 2:I would love to do um what's that called Vermont, not the Vermont 50, um rat the ragged.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, ragged 75. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That'd be a cool one eventually. And uh, yeah, I mean I, it's not hard to like. I mean Tom's constantly trying to get me to to do his races and uh, it's going to happen one of these years, tom don't worry. But I, uh, yeah, being a Western boy at the moment, it's, it's a little tricky.
Speaker 1:So fair enough. Fair enough, I mean, dude I was, I was really blown away out here, like I was like damn, like I could do. I mean I kind of did this year but like I would like to do a whole season like just east coast stuff.
Speaker 2:you can kind of be fun you know I think you have a great call. Yeah, I mean like now. I mean what washington's a wild race like now they have like a cog vk, like they've got like yes, stuff, race the cog. That's another one on the list. Yeah, well, then you know you get to line up with the goat. So it's true, joe always comes back.
Speaker 1:yeah well, dude. No, I want to say thank you so much, man, for coming on. I hope this is the first of many conversations. It's always fun getting your perspective and I just appreciate learning more about you and about your takes on the sport and you know. Thanks for being open about your races as well. Like amazing to follow along and wishing you the best of luck in the rest of your season. Thanks a lot, james, it was a pleasure. Yeah, buddy, oh man, what a great episode. I want to thank Noah so much for coming on the pod.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate his time and, uh, yeah, looking forward to seeing Noah at a race later this summer. Uh, guys, before you get going, you can find a Noah on Instagram. You can give him a follow at. Noah will uh handle is N O W a W I L L? Um. Give him a follow, send him a DM, let him know what you guys thought about the episode. I'm sure he would appreciate your kind words, um, and definitely send him congratulations on just you know, some of the great, amazing things he's been doing on the racing course this the season so far. Um, yeah, if you guys enjoyed this episode, you can give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, spotify, youtube or wherever you consume your podcasts. That would be amazing and, uh, guys, hope you enjoy this one. Sorry about the long layoff. I've been on vacation in the great North, uh, playing in the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire and Maine, and I am coming back, uh, now. So we are, we're back and got some fun stuff loaded for you for the next few weeks, um, and the rest of the summer. So I hope you guys enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Listen up, guys.
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