The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Sub-Ultra Mountain Running
The Steep Stuff Podcast
#110 - Grant Colligan
Grant Colligan sits down with the Steep Stuff podcast to share his fascinating journey from Michigan flatlands to Colorado mountain peaks. Despite growing up in the Midwest without access to mountains, Grant developed into an elite trail runner while maintaining his career as a metallurgist.
The conversation explores how Grant's decorated collegiate running career at Colorado School of Mines (where he earned 10 All-American honors) ended abruptly—first by being tripped in his final cross country race, then by the pandemic canceling his track season. This unfulfilling conclusion led him to trail running in 2023, where he quickly found success with a podium finish at the Moab Trail Half Marathon.
Grant offers valuable insights into his training philosophy, maintaining a collegiate-style approach with two key workouts weekly rather than completely abandoning track principles for trail-specific training. "At the high level, you still have to be a really good runner to be a good trail runner," he explains, challenging the notion that trail success requires entirely different preparation.
We dive deep into his recent performances, including his impressive top-15 finish at the Broken Arrow 23K Golden Trail Series race and his near-podium at the GoPro Games 20K—all while recovering from a unique piriformis nerve injury that counterintuitively required more running to heal. Grant also discusses his upcoming European racing debut at the Golden Trail Series event in Austria and the legendary Sierre-Zinal, which he approaches with strategic humility.
Perhaps most fascinating is Grant's dual perspective as both competitor and coach at Colorado School of Mines, where he witnesses firsthand how collegiate runners are becoming increasingly "trail curious" as they recognize career opportunities in mountain running. Through his connection with Andy Wacker's Trail Team, Grant has found community and mentorship that have accelerated his progression in the sport.
Follow Grant on Instagram @gmoney_hoppin as he takes on Europe's most challenging mountain courses and pursues his goal of winning a US Mountain Running Championship.
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What's up everybody. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff podcast. It's a happy Tuesday, indeed Excited to bring you guys an episode today with Grant Colligan. Grant is happy to catch up with Grant in the midst of his 2025 mountain running season, where Grant's already taken a top 20 finish well, really, top 15 finish of the Broken Arrow 23k. He's gotten himself just off the podium at the DDS Terex gopro game 20k and he's in the midst of a euro trip right now where he just finished up the golden trail series alpine glacier race that was this past weekend and he's getting ready for series and all which is going to take place in just a few days. Super fun to catch up with grant. Talk to him a little bit about his running journey.
Speaker 1:Grants a graduate of the colorado school of mine, so we talked about what it was like both running cross country and track for that program and he's also a coach there, which is kind of cool. So we talked about when it's like just coaching young ones and watching young guys kind of come up and seeing. You know how many people are trail curious these days. As you know, people start to realize you can do more in the trail space and kind of make a career out of it. So, without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one Big fan of Grant's. I'm excited to see what he's going to do with the rest of his season, as he'll be showing up at Series and All this weekend and then Mammoth Trail Fest later in September. So I hope you guys enjoy it Without further ado.
Speaker 1:Grant Culligan, it's time. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live People. What's going on? It is summer guys, super exciting Adventures in the mountains, summer races. You know it's about that time to start thinking about your gear. You know, I want to say our brand partner, ultimate Direction, got you guys covered, pop on over to ultimate directioncom.
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Speaker 1:So pop on over to ultimate directioncom. They have you covered for all your hydration solutions. Use code steep stuff pod for 25% off. Again, that's steep stuff pod. One word for 25% off. Ultimate got you covered and if you have any questions, shoot me a DM, let me know. I'd be happy to answer any product related questions for you guys. So thanks so much. Check out ultimate direction Grant Colligan. Welcome to the steep stuff podcast. How's it going, buddy?
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm great.
Speaker 1:Dude stoked to have you on. I feel like you know it's funny. You know, one of my frequent co-hosts, nick Tooses, brought you up a bunch of times in like race previews. He lives not too far from you I guess outside of the Golden Era or area and he's always talking about how you're at the top of most of the segments in that area. He's like you got to get Grant on. So I'm glad that we're able to do this one and finally have you on. You've had a lot of really consistent results in your trial running career. I feel like this year, um, after a top 15 finish at the broken arrow 23 K as well as you know, some solid performances as well as, like pepper not Pepe's face off at the um what is it? The GoPro games 20 K. Um, yeah, you've done a lot, dude. So definitely.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, glad, glad to do this yeah, yeah, I'm glad to be glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe I was just gonna say, uh, maybe give the audience like the five minute elevator pitch on like your running background and your relationship with running yeah, yeah, I mean, uh, I guess the thing to know about me is I'm originally from michigan, um, so I didn't really grow up in the mountains or really trail running. I mean, I ran on the trails in Michigan but that's dirt paths and county parks and that sort of thing. But I was recruited out here to run cross country and track at Colorado School of Mines. I had a great career there. I had 10 All-Americans. I still help out coaching.
Speaker 2:But my collegiate career kind of ended and kind of just in a weird way. Um, in my final cross race I got tripped like 400 meters into the race and from the front. So I was leading. I got tripped and I stood up and I was like in 100th place and I had to march back up and I finished something in the top 15 or whatever. But I was trying to win that day, um, so I was the end of my cross career and then I got hurt from that race. So I didn't run for a year and then I came back for track and but that that that year was 2020. So I was standing on the track getting ready for my we were doing like pre-meet for the 2020 indoor meet and then the meet was canceled and so that was the end of my collegiate career, was getting tripped in a cross race and then not even being able to race. So I kind of I left collegiate running not really fulfilled and not really feeling like I showed like what I could do, had a couple of years of not really like knowing what, what I wanted to do, and then started jumping into trail races, kind of in 2023.
Speaker 2:Did some fun ones, did one Mount Blue Sky my first that's not really a trail race but that's a mountain race Got destroyed in Pikes Peak, ran at Mammoth and then kind of got hooked at the Moab Trail Half Marathon I got a podium thereab Trail Half Marathon, we got a podium there. Third, my first time out. That kind of hooked me in, like hey, this stuff is kind of fun, you can run hard and still do the technical stuff, and that's kind of what pulled me in. And then since then just been kind of with the support of the trail team club and Andy Wacker, just kind of hitting that sub ultra kind of distances. I did run a couple of 50 Ks but that was more just like to kind of see if I like it.
Speaker 2:Okay, but the sub ultra stuff is kind of. It's kind of where I where, where my heart is. I mean, when I started this stuff, kind of Andy asks like, like what is your goal with everything here? And it still is I want to win a US mountain running championship. Now, even since 2021 or 2023 when I started, it's so much harder, but that's kind of the focus and that's kind of me. I like running hard for like an hour, not running hard for four hours, and that's yeah.
Speaker 1:That's kind of where I'm at um, yeah, right now, yeah, sorry I was gonna say what part of michigan are you from? Uh, I'm from the lansing area, so, uh, yeah, michigan I did an internship in ann arbor so I'm like I love michigan, super fun place, great, great state.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a, it's a weird one. It's freezing in the winter, unbearably hot during the summer and then just wet the entire rest of the year. So it's a little different, and especially in the, like, center of Michigan, uh, up North and the UP is amazing, um, I always love going back and traveling, but it's, yeah, it's it's tough to leave like golden and go back to Michigan and it's just like, ah, it's not the same, especially during the winter, like you don't see the sun for like months on end. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, in Arbor was fun, like it's like a call, it's. You know, obviously you missions there. It's like a giant party. It's that's a good time. Uh, good breweries and stuff. But yeah, yeah, I had special memories in michigan, good place. Um, yeah, man, let's, let's talk running. So goal is to win a title, did you? You weren't at sunup this year, were you?
Speaker 2:no, I wasn't. I got, uh, I got a little injury before and it was. It was one of those where it's like I was running again but I wasn't kind of going to be in the running for like making a team, um, and so I was like, okay, I'll stay back, I'll save some money and focus on like getting healthy and getting ready, and I think that worked out pretty well. I'm still not a hundred percent or where I want to be, but the races I have run since then have gone really well, so I'm happy. I left out at a weekend, um, and the those East coast races. I feel like you just got to get under your belt and figure out how to run those. It's so different than racing here in Colorado and on the West coast, um, but uh, yeah, I mean still still focusing on that. I still want, I still want to run well at one of those, but uh, yeah, this year just didn't. It didn't make sense.
Speaker 1:Well, dude, you had a great race at broken arrow, 23 K. Obviously, this year was a golden trail series race. Throughout this conversation We'll kind of thread it back and talk about, like, the rest of your season and we'll talk more golden trail. But you know, dude, like last year you had a great top 20 finish as well and this year you improved on it by a places like.
Speaker 2:It must have meant a lot to you to have done so well at like such a highly touted race like. What was the feeling like there? Yeah, I mean absolutely. Um, yeah, going in, I'm probably like or going in I was probably like 85 percent of the fitness that I that I wanted to be at um. I put together like like four weeks of training to get up there.
Speaker 2:I was including like the gopro games at vale um and really the goal for any of those races is you just kind of have to like it.
Speaker 2:It goes so hard at the beginning and all those golden trail races that you have to measure yourself on the uphill so you have something on the downhill and that race is just it's kind of set up perfect for me, where it's a lot of long runnable stretches. Yeah, it's steep, yeah, you're going up for like an hour and 10 minutes, hour and 20 minutes or whatever um, but you can kind of push that whole time. You're not really power hiking all that much and uh, kind of it just felt great. Where I kind of got into a groove, there was a bunch of guys around me fighting for position early and I just want to be like dude, we have 3k feet of vert left on this climb and you're. You're trying to pass this guy for the third time in this on the second mile, um. So I just felt like kind of kind of made me feel like an old head or just like, oh, these damn kids these whippersnappers yeah um, but it's yeah, it's just crazy.
Speaker 2:I just got to climb. Uh, I did most of the climb with Sam Chalenga, which is like a weird experience.
Speaker 2:You're like this dude's run like a 26 minute 10K and he's like pumping more than I am and yeah, just coming to the top, and I just felt good and it was. Yeah, it was just a great race and like it, just everything felt like it went right. And it's even when you don't have the fitness, sometimes you hit those days and it's just everything feels right. You're able to kind of put it together and get to the maximum of what you can on that day, and that's what I felt like that day was.
Speaker 1:I always love seeing athletes come like, come back and like be like 80, 85 and then go have a great day because it's like you know. It's like it's interesting because even when you're at a hundred percent, you think you're going to pull it off. Sometimes it doesn't happen and then sometimes it takes these random days where you're not at a hundred percent and you pull off what you didn't think you were able to keep like capable to do. So, if you don't mind me asking, what were you working through? Like what kind of injury?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I pinched the my piriformis nerve in my butt and so it was like it was a really annoying injury because I thought normally you get hurt, you rest it and you like do pt and it gets better. Um, but like this was one of those injuries where the pt was like if you don't stop, if you have like keep running more to get it to fix itself. So I like took a week off thinking it was a normal injury before I could see the pt and that just made it so much worse and so like I had to like ramp up through a bunch of pain to get up to like my normal running weekly mileage and once I got that it was kind of to the point where I could do workouts again. But it was just like a dumb injury where it was just something weird. Maybe I'd like sprinted too hard, helped out the mind steam or something like that.
Speaker 1:And it just pinched and pinched the nerve. Um, do you see that I made it all say that again, sorry, sit for work, because I've seen a ton of people that like sit for work but also like extremely high level athletes like get injuries similar to that. Like one of my best friends is a pt and he's always telling me about these weird like injuries like that, so that's interesting yeah, I, I do.
Speaker 2:Uh, I mostly from home, but I have to, I have to fly a lot. So my guess is what happened is I like flew back from from work somewhere and then immediately did it like a speed workout the next day and then normally you get like a little pain or something. You're like ah, whatever, I'll keep going. And I did that. I must have like really irritated it, but that's that's. My guess is, yeah, sitting in the plane, work from home, I on phone calls and stuff, I walk around enough that I would think that it'd be okay.
Speaker 1:But who knows, dude, nerve stuff is crazy, man. I've been going through it, like with like what I originally thought, like I had like a broken sacrum and like then it turns into nerve pain and there's this, that and the other and like, dude, it nerve pain like, yeah, it like manifests itself in the craziest of ways. It's not fun.
Speaker 2:And it was the PT just saying yeah, you just need to run more. And I'm just like what do you mean? That's not injury prevention, it's just running through the pain. And he's like no, it's one of those where it's just like run up until you think the pain is too much and then you can keep going. It's going to be like like you'd have to go really far to make it significantly worse, but it's yeah, it's just kind of not something I experienced before.
Speaker 1:Um and that kind of pushed me back out of there for a couple weeks. Gotcha, no, I feel you man, um, but in the lead up, before broken arrow, you ran. Uh, what is it? I keep getting it wrong. The adidas terex is the gopro 20K.
Speaker 2:Do you beat?
Speaker 1:some dudes there that day Like that was a pretty deep race, like maybe talk about that and like kind of how that race went for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was a a test of the of of my butt. Essentially it was get out there and see what I can do and yeah, I just went really well. That course suits me really well. There's no, there's not really any technical descending, but there's a lot, a good amount, of technical climbing, and so I was able to kind of like latch in and just climb really hard, Um, and then with the rolling downhills I could kind of use the fitness and keep running. Um, yeah, it was the big thing. Uh, one of the one of the boys is on the minds team, kind of jumped in there last minute. His name is Paul Knight. He's got, he'll do more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he'll do more trails. Yeah, he's got Kendall mountain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's, he's, he's a good trail runner, he's just getting over his uh, hey, I gotta, I gotta show that there is some like, um, trail running like skills here, cause this kid he's like a, he's like a 28, 50, 10 care, so he's, he's really fit, yeah, and he's coming right off track season. So he had the fitness um, and it was kind of like he launched off on the uphill, um, ran with the, with the, with kade and, uh, the other guys going out real hard, but then on the descent I was able to catch right back up and that always feels good, um, but it was one of those rows I was kind of running away from him in fear of like, oh, he's gonna show up and start sprinting by me with all this track speed, uh, but that was a big kind of, I don't know, say, ego boost or just like, uh, delayed gratification of, hey, there is like a trail running skill here, it isn't just fitness, and so I can come in at kind of yeah, 85 and still race against really fast guys. I mean, jesh was there too, like jesh is just as a great trail runner, um, but it was, yeah, that that course suits me really well. So I think that's. That's one caveat to all of this, uh, but overall it was just kind of one of those days where it was, uh, I felt good, was running a little scared, because then you kind of need to beat me, yeah, yeah um, and it just like I hit everything correctly there and it just, yeah, it worked out well no, that's I mean amazing.
Speaker 1:Like I said, you beat some, some studs there, seth the more was in that mix there was quite a few uh, like amazing athletes, so good to see you. Yeah, like I said, good confidence booster for broken arrow and seems that things are clicking now. Um, what's next? So you, I know you said next week or in the next couple. Is it next week? Uh, you'll be headed out to europe, or is the week after?
Speaker 2:yeah, next week yeah, there's the, the glacier pits in austria, which is the golden trail race in austria. Um, that one's a. How long is it? Like 23, 25k. It is one of those like it's probably gonna be up race um, then hang out for a week and then race Sears and all um, which, yeah, it's a. It's a big race there. Um, kind of the goal in both of those is just score points to try to make it to the final. Um, yeah, kind of, even though it's been a couple of weeks since um broken arrow, that I haven't made a huge jump in fitness fitness, you know, you don't get fit in two weeks, kind of thing. Um, I've been able to train, train well, but just being behind from the beginning of the season, it's, I'm still kind of stuck there. Uh, but yeah, the goal there I mean top 15 at uh, solomon pits would be amazing. Um, that should give me great points to try and make the final. And then, uh, sears and all, I kind of have no expectations.
Speaker 2:Uh, kind of andy whackers kind of put the the fear in that of that race in me uh well, it's just, it's one of those races you can go in super fit and super ready and come in 55th place. Like it's so competitive that it's you just kind of got to be, got to be ready for that, and so I'm kind of treating it more as like a 50k than I am one of these regular golden trail races. Um, yeah, it's, you essentially do two vks to start the race and then traverse over and go back and go into the tennis and all. So, yeah, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna. I'm a pretty good climber, I feel like I'm a pretty good climber. Uh, so I'm just gonna get out there kind of get into the, the grinding climbing mode and hope for the best.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, there's some time incentives that the elites have try to hit some, some of those. Um, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna go in with an expectation, say, hey, I want to be top 30. That'd be an amazing day. That pretty much guaranteed I make it to the golden trail final. But just be there, compete as well as I can on that day. Um, luckily the temperatures don't look crazy hot, so that should be good for me. And, yeah, just get out there and race are you?
Speaker 1:are you? Is there one you're more excited for? Like I feel like series and all is like the. It's our super bowl, right for sub ultra like it's, it's the like probably the most competitive trail race on the planet, more or less. Are you more stoked for one or the other, or are you just kind of in awe of like what? Let's, we'll just roll the dice at series and all and see what happens, or yeah?
Speaker 2:I mean it's uh series and all. It kind of reminds me of like a, like a marathon major, like if there's so many people and then the elite field is like 150 people yeah so it's.
Speaker 2:There's so many like races within the race going on that it I feel like it's going to just turn into. You're kind of battling yourself and if, if you have a good day, you're going to have success hitting the times that you need to hit, that sort of thing. Um, so I'm excited for it. But I I do well personally when I go into a race and it's just, hey, how can I make this the best day for me? And that's kind of how I'm, that's the head space I'm in, kind of going into it right now.
Speaker 2:I feel like last year I kind of got too amped for some of these races, like excited, like, oh, I could race to to win, and that's kind of when I had issues. So if I can go in and just kind of, yeah, be there, be the best that I can be on that day, then hopefully good things will happen. Um, but yeah, it's, it's. It's crazy that, like, having a trail race with like 10 000 people is something so different than any race that I've ever experienced in the us. I mean, the biggest is like pike's peak. That's got to be like the biggest trail race in the us and that's still like yeah, it's like 700, 800, something like that.
Speaker 1:It's not that. It's not as crazy as you'd think oh really, broken arrow is bigger yeah, I'm on the board of pikes.
Speaker 1:That's the only reason I know like every race is like seven or eight hundred, like it's not not as big as the 23 is. No, I'm sorry, the um, the ascent from 2023. You might have thought it was big, probably because they packed it to like the the fullest brim. It could possibly be packed with with the athletes, um, and that was probably dude still to this day. That probably was the most competitive race ever assembled, like on american soil, like the ascent this year at broken arrow might have come close and the 46k might have come close, but like, yeah, still that might have.
Speaker 1:I think it still holds the title as far as, like, if you were to rack like all the interest scores and everything all together, I still think the Ascent holds the candle. But, yeah, broken Arrow and the rut, the rut's actually a bigger yeah I mean.
Speaker 2:But Broken Arrow is a split between all the races. No race is like huge, but yeah I mean having. But Broken Arrow is split between all the races. No race is like huge, but yeah I mean having like 10,000 people in a trail race is so different, technical, like I've never been there.
Speaker 2:that's the other thing. I'm going to this blind, so I'm hoping that it's uh. Yeah, I can just climb and just kind of feel good and not really have to worry about kind of route finding and all that stuff that a lot of the trail races in the us ends up being, because even if it's a big race in the us, you still end up racing like five other dudes and so it's like, yeah, a big part of that type of racing is route finding and that's that's energy you can take away from it. So I'm just, yeah, it's going to be weird kind of being in a big pack on that climb and just kind of turning your brain off and just like pushing yeah, I've gotten lost. I've gotten a lot. I've raised up, or I did the Pikes Peak Ascent and did Bar Trail and both times I got lost at the same spot, even going up Bar Trail.
Speaker 1:You went straight where you should have made a left on. You probably went to the Experimental Forest. It's like when you split off Ruxton and go up and it's at the top of the W's. You can make a left to go to Bar or you can go straight and it's like more on a road.
Speaker 2:Is that where you got lost? There should be somebody there. That's interesting. No, it was at the in the bar trail race I jet or the bar mountain trail race bar trail mountain yeah yeah, uh, I just like was running behind joe and looked down and then looked up and I couldn't see him, and then I looked around and I said, oh, I'm not on the trail.
Speaker 1:And turned around. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was the first time. And then at the Pikes Peak Ascent I kind of did the same thing, Like right off, right when you came off a tree line, I'd like looked down, wasn't really paying attention and just was like way off course again.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, dude, that's crazy. All right, see, I hope Pykes is listening to this. We got to put more people on the course to keep that from happening.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's a course issue. I think it was just a me issue.
Speaker 1:I was just pushing too hard and you see the red mist and even signs and stuff your vision starts to go.
Speaker 2:That's fun.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, dude Pykes is fun. Do you think you'll ever go back to pikes? You think we can get you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I think so, um, it's, yeah, just fitting it into the schedule, uh, it's, it's tough. I like I like the hill climb style of race. I think that's like my favorite kind of race the not like a vk, like longer than a vk, like maybe, yeah, like anything over like five, six miles and a lot of climbing, um, but it's pike's peak is just so hard because it goes so high. It's like I feel like if I did it again and really like wanted to make it a focus, I'd have to do like a training camp up in Leadville or something. You got a project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, getting used to being at high altitude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel that way about like any of the high altitude races we have in Colorado, like most of them, like, for instance, like Cirque series, a basin like I get asked all the time like you're going to go race that race this year and I'm like, yeah, but I gotta go spend time, like on my weekends, like training at 12 000 feet to like get feel comfortable with that because I live, I'm in colorado springs and you're even lower. You're at what golden is what?
Speaker 2:six thousand five thousand feet, something like that, yeah, my house is, yeah, it's like exactly six thousand exactly six.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you're in a similar boat, so you got to go up and actually go train, which is I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's a kind of a pain in the neck on the weekends, like unless you want to specifically go into the high country, and it's like that's a very specific type of training you have to do like you actually have to. It's not like I'm just gonna go like, you know, mess around at 12 000, feel like I actually have to do like a workouts up there. It'll actually like get used to it. Yeah, it's, I don't know like it's it's tough to. It's like we have two colorados, we have the front range and then we have the mountains, and it's like two completely different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, the guys up in boulder will say it's the, it's bolder than everywhere else.
Speaker 1:But being a golden guy, do you throw a little shade at boulder, because a lot of guys train out of boulder like what's your, what's your take on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I do a little bit just because it's fun. It's I mean the yeah, there's. There's always the joke that if you want to get good at running you leave boulder, um, but uh, no, I mean it's just one of those spots where it's everybody's there so I end up training with a couple guys up there, um, but yeah, it's just one of those things it's. I think being in golden and going to mines, there's a like, a specific like grittiness to being kind of in golden, um, we really don't have like any like flat dirt trails here. Everything is kind of up or down and that's that's kind of the style of running we do here. So it's a little different than boulder, um, but it's. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we like to throw shade, but I mean when famous athletes come to colorado, they go train in Boulder. So yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's like I said I throw the jab when I can, just because it's fun but Boulder is still great.
Speaker 2:You know, they got good stuff.
Speaker 1:What is your training like man, do you do? I gotta be honest with you, I did not lurk your Strava before this, but like, are you more do a lot of workouts on the roads? Do you do a lot of workouts on the roads? Do you do a lot of stuff on the track? Still, do you get a lot of time in the mountains? Like? Everybody's training is a little bit different, so what's your style?
Speaker 2:Yeah, most of my training is I kind of still I still use kind of the system that I had in college where it's like two pretty big workouts a week and then a long run and then the rest of the days are recovery days, that kind of thing. But yeah, most of my workouts are still kind of on the flat or like short hill stuff I'll do like a hill climb, like on a road or something that sort of thing, and then kind of all of my other runs are on the trails. So that's kind of how I do it. Yeah, I don't do specific trail like workouts anymore. It's one of those things where I feel like kind of at the high level, you still have to be a really good runner to to be a good trail runner. So just kind of doing all the same stuff that you do for for track is you gotta get your vo2 max up, you gotta be used to sprinting. Like that's a weird one, that like, yeah, the, the roche crew, they, they like doing their strides, that kind of stuff, but that's that is true. You need to kind of still be used to being fast, um, so that's kind of the, the focus more, and I I still jump into a lot of uh road races, kind of on top of trail team stuff. I'm on uh kind of a little club here 5280 distance project and so I'll jump into the uh usatf colorado races so I'll go race like a 5k on the roads or like a half or that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, a lot of those races. It's uh like I'm like right behind the like the elite guy so like they'll run like a 14, like 25, can I'll run like 14, 50 and be happy with that. That's good fitness for that day. Um, but yeah, it's really it's.
Speaker 2:I want to be a good runner and then make sure I'm still comfortable. Kind of downhilling is the other part of it. So that's kind of my focus. Kind of going into big races with a lot of vert. Normally I would do like long runs with a lot of vert Right now because I'm coming off this injury. I'm like, but I'm really able to do that, but Broken Arrow and GoPro went pretty well, kind of doing just flatline training. So I was like, let's just make it through these two big races, kind of not doing as much vert. And then after, let's just make it through these two big races, uh, kind of not doing as much vert, um, and then after that I'll start kind of mixing that back in again, um, but yeah, I'll run like 80 miles a week with like 5,000 to 10,000 feet of vert, so not a ton.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's not bad at all. Do you? Do you work with a coach at all, or are you self coach?
Speaker 2:I like to say I'm coached by committee. I do most of the training myself, and then my college coach, who's actually been a USMAT running champ, chris Seamers. He'll help me out on specific stuff, but I'm just busy with traveling for work and stuff. It's always been just yeah, I structure it the same as I've always structured it and ramp up and ramp down and ramp down, but, yeah, self-coach, but with a lot of help, nice nice.
Speaker 1:I want to bring it back to, uh, mines because, like I had a professor, I studied geology in undergrad and like I took a lot of engineering classes and we I had a professor that got her phd or I forget what she went, did undergrad or I forget, but anyway she went to mines and loved it. Like the experience was crazy and she really enjoyed it. What did you take away from it? Like, did you really enjoy going to school there and was it a good time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I enjoyed it a lot. I was there for six years, so that says anything. But the yeah it's I don't know how to. I'm a metallurgist kind of by day, so I do engineering kind of, as that's my main job and then running is my second job, I like to say, but Mines kind of sets you up to be someone who just kind of it's weird to say just does it. I've had kind of engineers underneath me that have gone to other schools and if you ask someone to do something, usually mine's grads. I don't know if it's a function of the type of people that like to go there, like the outdoorsy kind of ish people and the engineering people stuff, but they just like they can. It kind of forces you to think through stuff really quick and then make a decision and just do it and that's. I've that a lot.
Speaker 2:It's a hard school I guess. I don't know if this is the same as now when I went. It was kind of a hard school, but I did grad school there too and it was just fine. But it's one of those things where it's like you're in such a pretty place that you can go do these hard classes, go kind of run hard, being on the crossing track team and then afterwards you're still in Golden, so you still get to hang out and see the mountains go, hang out by the creek, go to the breweries and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great kind of just a mix of being able to live there. I mean, it's the kind of the Europeans talk about, kind of like hanging out in a little village somewhere and just doing what you need to do, and that's kind of what I feel like golden is. Now there's a lot more tourists than kind of when I went to school, but it was, uh, you're just like there to do your school, you're there to run, and then you just get to exist in a school place and yeah, I like that a lot.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, you know man, I kicked myself now living in Colorado. I've been here for like five years and I'm like damn like, why did I not go to undergrad out in Colorado, like it's just such a good spot, like I, yeah, I I mean, yeah, it's, it's a great place to live and yeah, it's uh, yeah, pretty cool, pretty freaking cool. Uh, what was the program like? Like I know I've talked to a couple of athletes that actually have gone through, um, the program itself or are still in the program. Um, like what, what did you take away from like the cross country and track? Like like the program itself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm, I'm, I'm still a volunteer assistant coach there, so still around the system. Um, it's, I mean, we're, we're highly accomplished now We've won. Uh, how many national champs do you have? Four, we're, we're highly accomplished now we've won. Uh, how many national champs do you have four? Yeah, four cross national championships. Uh, I won. I was on the team, I was an all-american when we won for the first time in 2015, so 10 years ago now, and we've won four since then.
Speaker 2:Um, it's, it's a lot like, uh, kind of school at mines. It's the kind of the goal of all the coaching and everything is give you every tool and every experience and everything around you to set you up for success, but you have to do it. Um, and that's kind of that's exactly what the program is. We don't get now we're starting to get a lot more talented kids, but they're not like five. We're not fighting CU for the same kids. We don't get now we're starting to get a lot more talented kids, but they're not like we're not fighting CU for the same kids. We're fighting MIT and kind of like smaller schools for for a lot of these athletes, but it's it's a lot of kids that are, that are pretty good runners coming in that just want to be good at running, um, and we are going to set, set up as best as we can to let you get better, and that's that's a big thing. Um, yeah, we have a it's a pretty big team, so you have a lot of room to kind of just kind of dig in and just just get better over time and that's, I think that's the, the big advantage. We have kind of even compared a lot of these big, the fast d1 schools now with their with roster limits, they only can have like not or was it 12 guys, nine guys or whatever. So you show up, you have to be ready to go and contributing and if you're not, you get cut and kind of at a d2 school now we can have a big roster so we can take a chance on, kind of we have four good freshmen every year and then maybe five or six that we're just taking a chance on, and it's kind of it's it's up to them if they want to be good. We can't make you be an all-american, but we can set up and do everything we can to make sure that everyone has a chance to be an all-american.
Speaker 2:That's kind of that's kind of the motto for for minds cross country the uh, coach seamers. He ends all his emails with stay scrappy, and so that's kind of I like that. That is, yeah, that is the motto. It's it's we're not the on paper, we're never the fastest team when we go into a nationals meet, um, but it's just. It's a lot of guys that that want to do well and that's something it's. It's. It's fun because you can coach everything else you can. You can coach for them, you can get everything else. You can coach form, you can get fitness in their legs, but on the day you have to want to do well, and that's usually the kids that end up being there. So that's a great motto.
Speaker 1:How do you like coaching or helping out and being part of that team still?
Speaker 2:I like it a lot. I mean, it's one of those things where you get what you put into it. So if you're kind of there invested and you're wanting to see all these kids kind of grow up and get better and do well, then you get a lot out of it when they end up doing that and that's the best part of it. Yeah, that's, that's the best part of it.
Speaker 2:I before, so after, uh, after grad school, the, my wife and I moved to minnesota for two years so I coached high school there and then came back and helped helping coach now and it's, yeah, the the best thing for all this is just seeing the kids get better and it's and it's never like the kid who's like already an All-American and moves up and he goes from 10th to like third, like you're never that excited because you know that kid wants to win and so it's tough because it's like, oh, it's third, that's a great day, but they didn't win. It's always the kid who came in, who we barely let on the team, who didn't make nationals till his fourth year, but then he ends up like winning a random, like conference meet or something, and that's like that's more exciting than seeing the kid get 15 all americans. Yeah, oh, dude, I love that do you?
Speaker 1:are you starting to see, like any seniors, be like trail curious, like like knowing that, like there's opportunities on the trails?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I think they're. Uh, it's more of an option now than like when I graduated, um, I mean paul, he went out and ran that, that gopro race, um, and he seemed to like it. The the hard part is everyone who, it seems like wants to do trail is from colorado or from someplace that had already had trail running before they. They went to school at mines, um, so I think that's the hard part and I think that's something that, like Andy with the trail team is doing really well is the only way to get these kids that grew up in the Midwest Uh, I mean Shay, who's from Indiana, she just ran Western States Um, you, uh, she. She didn't grow up in the mountains or anything, but she just fell into trail running.
Speaker 2:The more eyes we get on trail running and the bigger that these kind of championships become and Golden Trail and all that kind of stuff, the more those kids in the Midwest and in the northeast and that kind of stuff see it and see it as like an option of, oh, I can do that without living in colorado or mammoth or something like. Um, that is an option that I can, that I can kind of aspire to be, and then when I get older and I have the option to kind of go wherever I want to go, that you can go to these places and start to get better at trail running. But it's, it's. It's tough because if it's not an option when you're kind of a junior in high school, for you it doesn't seem like it's an option when you're a senior in college, yeah, um, but it definitely is If you're, if you're on a college team at any level, you can run trails at a pretty high level.
Speaker 1:You just have to like make the decision to go do that and just just yeah, convincing people to do that is sometimes tough, it's true, man, I feel like we still have the stigma that it's like a bunch of old dudes running around in the woods, but like it's like. I mean, I just feel like the sport has evolved so much in the last few years. Especially sub ultra has gotten so competitive, like these were the vks, your, your golden trail series, stuff, circ series, like a lot of these races have gotten so fast. Um, so I think it does. It provides, it's starting to provide more of an outlet for these d1 or even like just at any level collegiate athletes to be able to come in and, uh, have good performances, and it seems like steeplers do really well. I don't know what it is, but like steepler is just it seems to be like a one one transfer. If you're a good steepler, like, you're generally going to be great on the trails, which is really interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's. I feel like it's I've steepled, um, but I was. I was much better at cross than I was track. Uh, it's the. And Paul said this kind of after the gopro games, paul knight, he said it's.
Speaker 2:Running trail races is so different than running any track race, because in a trail race you will pin your heart rate and then it comes back down and so you're never really in a groove and steeple is kind of that exact same thing is you're in a groove for five steps and then you have to think, hey, like it isn't just jumping, it's oh, I have to move around this guy to jump, or I got to take a couple hard steps to get over this, and so it's the. The hardest part for people in my mind isn't really the fitness, because if you're a d1 track runner, you can. You can run a nine or an 8, 40 minute 3k kind of no issue. It's that mental of I still have to make a decision every 15 steps for three more minutes, and that's kind of a lot closer to trail running than it is like running a marathon on the road, where you just turn your brain off and try not to fall over Um just go.
Speaker 1:It's so true. Yeah, I think that's the best way and that's what I've heard from a lot of people. I didn't. I didn't run at the collegiateiate level but, like most of the people I've spoken to, it seemed to think it's something with heart rate, like it's the ability to just keep your ping, your heart rate, bring it back down and focus, think, yeah, it's very interesting. I don't know, it's uh, I don't know. It's like this evolving thing where it just seems to be this pipeline of steeplers just like, for whatever reason, do really well trails. One thing you mentioned you've talked about Andy a couple times in the trail team. Maybe just talk about the impact that's had on you just being able to connect with Andy and the trail team and how that's helped you evolve as you've entered this trail space over the last few years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I genuinely think I wouldn't be where I'm at without the help of Andy and the trail team.
Speaker 2:Um, it's, and it's mostly just kind of uh, mentorship, advice and community is the big thing. I mean, um, I'm not one of the trail team elites, uh, so I didn't. I didn't get any of the like travel money or anything like that. Um, but just having the community when you go to these races in the U? S where, um, especially when it's a golden trail race and you're going up and you're running against the Europeans who all kind of uh know each other and we'll warm up and that sort of thing, you have a community there of hey, this kind of does feel like this is a team, we're here and we're trying to run well And's like that's the biggest thing with, with kind of what andy set up there is. It's everyone is there to kind of run well and kind of feel good and and be a part of it. Um, and then the other part is just kind of, uh, a little bit of mentorship from andy.
Speaker 2:Um, I, coming to trail running like a couple years out of college, is a little different than the kind of the rest of the trail team, uh like elite guys. Um, most of them were kind of it was a you graduate from college and that's you go right to the trail team. You have those um kind of opportunities there. But andy kind of helped me out and uh, and it's mostly it's little stuff, it's uh kind of just like I guess best ways to give like one example is kind of the beginning of the year my whole goal was make a world's team and my big focus was the, the short trail, so the some 50k distance at broken arrow, um, and kind of in april I was starting to have a little bit of injury, a little bit of sickness and I was just like I don't know if it makes sense, if I'm going to make this team or not. And I just like texted Andy and I said, oh, I'm thinking about doing this and switching over to the 23K. It seems like it's going to be a little bit more open. I have a better chance of kind of doing well. And he was like, yes, absolutely do that. That's, that's, that's kind of the best for you right now.
Speaker 2:Um, and he's just so good at like those little things like that that it's um just helping out to push kind of my trail running career just forward every time, cause that's, that's the hard part. I don't have a shoe sponsor, I don't have anything like that. So I need to be really smart with my decisions of what I want to do kind of in these first couple years of just make sure everything I do kind of sets me up for to make the next step sort of thing. And and he's been absolutely great about that, um and yeah, and everything else he does with setting up, with the kind of with with camps, going out to Moab, going into Grand Lake, uh, going over to Europe, um it's yeah, it's just building that community and just kind of having kind of a group that is essentially the US sub ultra scene is is Andy Wacker's kind of entourage essentially he literally created like an entire, like his own competition.
Speaker 1:He just keeps bringing people on. I love it. I mean dude andy's the best man, first ballot hall of famer in his own right. I mean he'll go down as one of the greatest to ever do it. And then, on top of that, like just the legacy he's leaving by, like just bringing all you guys and and just getting all these people like excited about the sport. It's kind of crazy when you think about it like yeah, it's uh, yeah, he'll go. He's kind of the godfather of our sport. At this point.
Speaker 2:It's kind of wild yeah, I mean pretty much everyone in the sub ultra like discipline now is connected to andy and subway.
Speaker 1:Essentially it's like it's cozy yeah yeah, yeah, it's, he's like I said he yeah, definitely on the American side, like one of the best people we have for the sport, like championing the sport.
Speaker 1:At this point Sorry, I lost my train of thought of what I was going to ask you next, because I was thinking about Andy, what let's talk about like racing in Europe, are you? Because you? I mean, I looked at your ultra sign up and a couple of results like going this, like I didn't see anything from europe. So this will be your first time in europe, then?
Speaker 2:racing yeah, this will be our first time racing, yeah obviously broken arrow and some other races.
Speaker 1:Like you've had a chance to race the euros, but this is on, this is going to be on their soil. Like uh, what's your expectation for that? Like obviously, europe is completely different, it's completely different ball game. Like you got to readjust to the sleep. Like there's like a whole lot going into it. Like are you going to go out super early or just a few days before the race? Like kind of what's your, what's your strategy, especially that you're like you work as well, so you're going to take vacation time? Like how do you square all that away?
Speaker 2:yep, yeah, uh, going into these races because it's kind of back to back. It worked out pretty well. Um, I'm gonna go out like I think I'm. I leave on Wednesday, so I'll get there Thursday, so just like a couple days before. But I'm pretty used to traveling really close to the races.
Speaker 2:With college we were limited with how many days we could not be in class. That was one of the rules of mine. You could only miss a certain amount of days of classes. So a lot of these races, even nationals and stuff, we raced on saturday. We would fly like friday afternoon. So it wasn't like jesus, there was no turnaround. So I've been been pretty used to kind of like just showing up, being ready and ready to go, um. But yeah, this is gonna be slightly different.
Speaker 2:I did race down in mexico. Um, in the fall the race didn't go well, it was a weird one, but I was happy with the prep and all that. So that was kind of what I'm modeling this trip on and it's kind of one of those things where it's, yeah, just get out there, get adapted, quick, kind of get your sleep in. The big thing is I want two sleeps before the race and so, yeah, the that Thursday night before the race. If I sleep in until like 10 AM, that's not a huge deal, just be, have the body ready to go and then, um, luckily both races are kind of in the middle of the day, like 11, 10, 11 AM are the start times, so that's not that much different than kind of here yeah, that's like 2 AM, but you, you can, you can see the, the shift there, um, but yeah, I mean it's, it's going to be my first time, I don't know what, I don't know. Um, I know like food and all that kind of stuff I'm pretty easy about, so I'm not too worried about that kind of stuff, but yeah, it's kind of.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'm excited to see the difference in the like the style of trail running, um, especially running in Colorado, with everyone coming up kind of seeing kind of Joe gray and Andy Wacker, everyone kind of races, that style of race where you go out really hard and then kind of try to hold on. I'd be really interested if that's a different style than in Europe. And then, yeah, compare the difference between, like their technical running, talking to like people. It seems like Americans are really focused on the downhill and so I kind of want to see if that's, if there is a difference there. Dude, I don't imagine Europeans are bad at downhilling, but is that just like a real focus for Americans?
Speaker 1:for some reason, so I'm excited to see that it's a good question, but we'll see. Yeah, it's funny, man, I feel like our trails are so like in colorado just so buttery like we don't have very technical stuff. So and every time you go to europe or like the east coast, you're like what the hell these trails are so technical.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, if it, yeah, hopefully it's a little drier than like my East coast races. But uh, yeah, I've raced in New York and did like moon mountain, that kind of stuff and it's it's technical. But I think the worst part is just like the difference in the humidity there. Uh, and it it seems like it'll be a lot cooler, kind of in the Tyrol and Austria and then in the Alps, so that that'll help me. But yeah, I don't know, I'm going for there for the first time, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to hear about the Austria race. There's a lot of athletes going out for that. A lot of Americans will be out there, so it'll be cool to see just like how the American contingent does and just how fun it's going to be. Plus, it's a new race Not a new race but it's a new Golden Trail race for this year. Obviously, there's not too much bait on it. It'll be a little bit different. Obviously beautiful alpine vibes. It's just different. It'll be cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a little different too. It's set up, there's a pros-only race. It's a 5K loop at the bottom with like 200 feet of gain, so like not much, and then you pretty much do a VK and then come down to VK and then do another five K loop. So it's even different than like a lot of the other golden trail races. So even the Europeans that are there it isn't like they're going to like know this course like series and all like I'm sure half of the men in this year is an all field.
Speaker 2:I've run it like every year for like five years, so they know exactly what's going to happen. But in this Austria race it's going to be, uh, yeah, kind of new for everybody and I think that's good for the Americans and if it's somewhat runnable for a lot of it, I think a lot of us will have a good shot. Um, but yeah, we'll see. I mean, there's there's fit, there's fit guys going like like slim and taylor and there's, yeah, there's gonna be fast guys there, so I'm sure we can get some guys in the top 10.
Speaker 1:I gotta find out if dan kurt I know dan kurt's out there I gotta find out if he's racing it too, because we haven't had a damn taylor like uh um slim matchup yet this year, which would be kind of fun like I just want to see all the americans just go at it like it's gonna be a blast and then I get you know, against a bunch of the euros.
Speaker 1:I know remy's out because he's injured, but like, uh, remy um bonet, but like, yeah, it's gonna be, it'd be cool, we'll see what happens, but should be fun, yeah, yeah yeah, it should be great um, let's back back to you.
Speaker 1:I do want to ask one thing. Um, obviously you know you're a professional in the sense that you have a full-time job, full-time career. You know you're very involved in your community, do you? Is that a track you'd want to go is to get a shoe deal and get a sponsorship? Is that something that you would be interested in?
Speaker 2:I mean yes, yeah, I mean yeah, just hey, here's free money, like I'll take free money. But I think the uh, it's, it's more about like a validation thing for me it's, I like it validates that everything I've done, all the training and everything is kind of it's for a good cause. The. The big thing that would help a lot is just money for travel. That's the big thing with trail running is it's, even if it's in the US, it's kind of to weird places. Uh, I mean, broken arrow is an easier one, but you still have to fly into like reno and drive a couple an hour. Um, so that, yeah, that's the. The big help and I'm still kind of searching for that is the is travel money. Uh, so that's that's the big goal, um, for kind of this year.
Speaker 2:But it's the focus for me really is kind of, yeah, continue training, continue getting better, continue racing for a, for a U S title, and then try to make it to kind of team USA for international events.
Speaker 2:That's that's really the big goal. And getting those shoe deals so that you can have kind of the fastest thing right now, or the, or even just having fresh shoes for after two races like those are, those are the big part of it. So all of that is like the little stuff that builds up to it. Um, luckily, the trail team kind of does a lot of the stuff that like being a pro uh entails a lot of these races. I mean, carly helps a ton with bottles at Broken Arrow, so that's like those things of instead of the Brooks rep being there like hauling up bottles for their athletes, we have trail team people who are excited to do that for the trail team guys. So luckily I have that community there that can help to do that kind of stuff on race day. But kind of getting to the races and having it less of a financial impact for for me is the the big next step. Um, so, yeah, I hope that's. Yeah, that's the goal for this year?
Speaker 1:what do you like to run in? What kind of shoes?
Speaker 2:oh, I run in everything. Um, uh, I guess what am I racing in right now for? For, like, the longer races, the like two hour races, I like, I do the Hoka, the Tecton X twos I have a pair of the threes, I don't like them as much as the twos and then for the kind of VK, shorter races, like Pepe's or the broken era. So I do the Merrill. Oh no, what are those called? Sky, fire, brook, narrowson. I do the merrill oh, no what are those called skyfire.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yep, yeah, I think that's so hard. Yeah, um, yeah, so those are the two racing, but training, I train in everything. Um, yeah, the make your trail stuff is pretty good. Uh, I'll do the brooks. Yeah, whatever I can get my my hands on, it's kind of. It's kind of what I train in. Um, the uh big thing I do is I just like to change around my shoes a lot. I'm not somebody who like found a shoe like five years ago and I didn't get hurt in that and stick with that. I like I changed things up for, like, kind of whenever I can. Um, I feel like that keeps me healthy. Um, yeah, I might get some blisters for the first couple of weeks, my feet might hurt, but I feel like overall, that's, that's a good kind of way to do it there yeah, it's funny you say that, man.
Speaker 1:I've heard a lot of people like say that works for them to keep from, and it's like different sensations on the feet, but like it keeps keeps you from getting injured, actually like it helps a lot for injury, which is kind of pretty smart.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah I mean it's yeah, just not letting your feet getting used to like a shoe um, yeah, we have trouble with that kind of, with college kids too is, oh, they, they got a stress fracture two years ago and they're convinced that it's because they moved out of this one shoe that they've worn their entire life. And, as they know, it's probably because you've worn that one shoe your entire life. So kind of getting everybody into kind of new stuff, that sort of thing. Um, luckily, the race shoes now seem to like, especially on the road, seem to shift around what's the fastest, so sometime, like 86 might be fastest this year, and then next year it's nike, so it's uh, I feel like it kind of, for if you're trying to chase those like marginal gains, it forces you to be in something new every every year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, yeah, super shoes, dude, there's some good stuff out there, but playing around, those new sockany, the super puffy sockany ones I think it's the endorian, I can't remember it's the elite or the pros.
Speaker 1:They're like super squishy, holy shit. But yeah, dude, we're at about an hour now. I appreciate it. I gotta, uh, I gotta hard stop. I gotta hop off and do, uh the episode for Speed Goat. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope this is the first of many conversations. Hey man, wishing you the best of luck on your Euro tour. Hopefully we can link up for a run at some point in time.
Speaker 2:Definitely I need to get down to the Springs more. It's a little different terrain than here. Have you ever done the incline? Uh, no, I've. Only I've run up pike's peak and bar trail, that's it.
Speaker 1:Oh shit, dude. Yeah, there's a lot of good trails here, like some some techie stuff like you can get on. There's good variety actually, like people think of, like colorado springs, it's like a metro area and it's like you know. There's a lot of good stuff like some good hidden gems. So yeah, you know there's a lot of good stuff, like some good hidden gems, so I'll have to show you around Sweet, appreciate it, man.
Speaker 1:Like I said, best of luck and we'll be in touch, buddy, awesome. Thanks, james. Yeah, take care, man. What'd you guys think? Oh man, I want to thank Grant so much for coming onto the podcast. It's always fun to catch up and, you know, let people tell their stories. Obviously, grant is an extremely talented athlete and I'm excited to see where things are going to take him in the future.
Speaker 1:So, guys, before you get going, you can follow Grant on Instagram. Give him a follow. You can find him at one of the best tags I have possibly seen on Instagram. That's G Money Hoppin. G Money Hoppin. That's G Money H-O-P-P-I-N. Give the man a follow. Or you could just type in Grant Culligan. That's C-O-L-L-I-G-A-N. Give him a follow. Send him a DM, let him know what you guys thought about the episode and send him some words of encouragement, as the man himself takes on series, and all this week, which is no easy task for anyone, unless you're killing a joint, yeah. So, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you get going, if you wouldn't mind, give us a five star rating and review on Apple, spotify, youtube or wherever you consume your podcasts.
Speaker 1:We've got a lot of really fun things coming down the pipeline Next week dropping a really fun combo episode with the sub hub um, which is an exciting one. Half of it will be released on the sub hub um pod and the half of it will be released on the steep stuff pod, which is exciting. Talking about all things short trail, slash, sub, ultra, um. And then we have a series and all race preview episode with a special guest that's going to be dropping this week Um podium finisher on series, and all belly Kowalczyk is's going to be dropping this week Um podium finisher on series. And now Bailey Kowalczyk is actually going to be coming on um to help co-host um and provide just some a lot more commentary on the race and hopefully get some more value to you guys Um, as you uh preview the race and hopefully lock in your free trial fantasy picks. So hope you guys have a great rest of your week, appreciate it for tuning in and keep staying tuned for some good stuff coming down the pipeline. Thank you you.
