The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Short Trail
The Steep Stuff Podcast
The State of Sub Ultra Part 2, with Emkay Sullivan & Dani Moreno
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Two of trail running's most beloved podcasts collide in this dynamic exploration of the sport's evolution, challenges, and future. The hosts of SubHub and Steep Stuff dive deep into trail running's identity crisis, debating whether "short trail" or "sub-ultra" better describes races under marathon distance – a conversation that reveals much about how we frame our sport's narrative.
The discussion moves through fascinating territory, examining how races can achieve iconic status in today's sponsorship-driven landscape. Can events survive without being part of major series like Golden Trail? The hosts identify community integration as the secret ingredient behind legendary races like Zegama and Mount Marathon, where locals have embraced these events as cultural touchstones rather than merely athletic competitions.
Perhaps most illuminating is the frank conversation about athlete longevity and economics. While shorter distances might extend competitive careers, financial realities often push talented runners toward ultras prematurely. Geographic advantages become starkly apparent as the hosts acknowledge how athletes based in trail running hubs like Boulder or California's mountain towns enjoy significantly better sponsorship opportunities than equally talented runners from other regions.
The episode culminates with a celebration of standout performers, highlighting athletes like Jen Lichter ("possibly the best mountain 50K runner on the planet right now"), Anna Gibson, and remarkably, Ryan Becker – a consistent podium finisher still without major sponsorship. Rising stars like Mason Copey, Taylor Stack, and Courtney Coppinger round out this insightful assessment of trail running's current competitive landscape.
Whether you're a competitive trail runner, industry insider, or passionate fan, this collaboration offers rare insight into the sport's growing pains and potential future. Follow both podcasts across all platforms and join the conversation about where trail running goes from here.
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SubHub and Steep Stuff Collaboration
Speaker 1Welcome. Welcome welcome to the SubHub Podcast.
Speaker 2What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Pod.
Speaker 3And yeah, that's right, you guys heard right. We're doing our first ever collab between the two main Short Trail SubUltra. We'll get into that in this podcast. But amazing collaboration between the SubHub Podcast and the Steep Stuff Podcast. I am Dani Moreno. I'm MK Sullivan.
Speaker 2And I'm James Lariello.
Speaker 3All right Evolution, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 2No, I think one thing I just wanted to get back to that. I don't want to go too far back, but one thing that we glossed over when we were talking about top series was Olympics, and I know MK kind of brought it up in one part. I just am so curious to get your guys' take on this. I, like I said, I don't want to go down a super big rabbit hole. I'm just like out of both, just being professional, like as athletes in the sport, like what do you guys think as far as, like this become an Olympic sport?
Speaker 1I think, unfortunately, it does have to be this format that they're talking about now, where it's like the flower format or like what mountain biking has become, where they just do like four, you know, it's like five, four or five mile loops or whatever, because it's easier to make it accessible for like TV and stuff. But I wish that it was like what world championships format is, because I think that that's like. I really do think that they've kind of nailed it with the classic, the vk, the short trail and the long trail, um, and I think it covers the sport really well because, as we all know, like ultra and short trail are almost two different sports like, but trying to bring them together in some way. So I wish that there was more talk about doing it that way instead of like just having this like short 40 minute, like trail race, because it's cool but it just I don't know, it doesn't cover, it doesn't encompass the whole sport.
Olympics in Trail Running
Speaker 3Yeah, and I will add on that I feel like we are in a space now where I would maybe compare it to, you know, in cycling they have the olympics but they have the tour de france and the tour de france is still the crown jewel. So I think it's just like, with the sport in the spirit of it, I think, a win at you know, any of the cham Chamonix races, and then, like Western states, or just Zagama Sears and all that will always be probably top of resume and the Olympics will like just go alongside of it. It won't like trumpet, essentially, and I think that's the same with like tennis, like tennis is in the Olympics. I don't know who won the Olympics in tennis, but like Wimbledon just happened and whoever won that, um, I forget who it was on both sides, but like they are cemented in history forever. So I kind of feel like it'll have that sentiment.
Speaker 2Yeah, I like that and I to piggyback off. I think the word where my brain goes is I think about money, right, and athletes in our sport don't necessarily have long lives. Right, it's a pretty tough sport to make it in and there's not a ton of money. I think about it this way from an Olympic perspective, where most athletes in the Olympics there's no money to be made off of the TV rights right, you're just on television. Right, you're just on television. The only thing I could hope is that if it does become an Olympic sport, that that will attract more big money sponsors into the sport. Therefore, more athletes will have the ability to make full-time livings and it will grow the sport that way. Because I don't know, I just think about it from a career perspective. It's hard to do it, but it can be done. It would be nice, if it did become an Olympic sport, that there'll be more of an opportunity for athletes to really professionalize in a lot more ways.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3It's kind of like the, you know. I tell somebody I podiumed at whatever race and they're like cool, and I'm like, oh, and I've also been a four-time team USA member, and they're like, wow, that's so cool, you know, whereas, like, I see some of my other achievements as being of a higher tier, when you know, because I whatever, I didn't place at the World Championships or whatever, and so, yeah, I do agree, it would probably bring other sponsors, but it's like within the respects of your sport, if you do win Western States, any sponsor that's like really into trail running is suddenly like we want to contract with you, we want to contract with you, we want to contract with you. So, yeah, it is pretty interesting, it'll be interesting. I don't know if we're going to be in the Olympics anytime soon, though.
Speaker 1It's just like there's no agreement, yeah there's a lot of argument, yeah, and even within our own ranks at like the PTRA, about like what.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Like does about like what, yeah, like does doing the yeah, like an out-of-season testing pool and stuff like that. There's so much, yeah, that's. The other thing is like does this sport have the money to cover out-of-season testing, which is like a big requirement?
Speaker 3which I was laughing. I don't know if you guys saw this, but cam smith, I think he got married and then like the next day he got drug tested and I was just laughing.
Speaker 1Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker 3Which that's probably because he's on the Schemo team, right.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, I'm like Cam's clean out here. We should do everybody else.
Speaker 1Honestly, what a dream. I wish they were just showing up to my house randomly and drug testing me.
Speaker 3I know I'd welcome them in. I'm like I want some coffee, you want some.
Speaker 1Kool-Aid. Much for coming. I appreciate everything you do. Here's my pee yeah or my blood. That's so much easier. I don't know if you guys have ever done the, the blood test before races, where they just prick your arm instead of peeing post race. 10 out of 10 way prefer that so much easier.
Evolution of Big Races Over Time
Speaker 3um, nice, all right, let's, uh, let's, keep it going. I put this um evolution of big races over time. This is more so like the actual the popularity of races ie, I was thinking of broken arrow and like how that's increased, why that's increased drastically, versus, um, like Mount Washington, which we were just talking about, like more recents in the sport, unless you're not, unless you're living on the East Coast, like most young athletes aren't eyeing that like they used to. Or really strong climbers, like I'd love to see Anna Gibson go out there, but she's got her eyes on Golden Trail, you know. So, yeah, just evolution of big races over time, both in the US, and then I was thinking internationally. I don't know how to make this like a short discussion, but I was just thinking about what's it called, like Zagama, the fact that Killian has won it like 10 times, why, like he's an incredible athlete, but like the competition keeps getting deeper and deeper, um, and so, anyways, does that, I think, spark?
Speaker 1anything. Well, I think a good question. Um, that james actually asked when we were kind of like spitballing. This uh was like when is does a race have to be a part of a series at this point to be successful?
Speaker 3That's the question. That's the million-dollar question.
Speaker 2No, I got to say, and I think we've gotten to a point and I think I feel pretty confident in saying this, especially now being on the Pikes Peak board. The flat answer, especially for a race as historical as that is, if you're not part of a series like you, have massive fall off in the following years and it's like, obviously it's a gigantic honor to be part of something like the Golden Trail series. But in the years following do you have to make a decision as an organization? Do you go back to being the same grassroots event it was in the 1980s and seventies and before then, before sky runner, before golden trail came along? Or to you, do you move forward with a new, with a new racing organization?
Speaker 2Um, to try and join a series, cause I and I'll say the I'm sure mammoth trail fast. While I don't know Tim super personally, I would imagine maybe going through the same thing and trying to figure out, like, what do we do next after golden trail? Um, because yes, I would imagine, while there is immense popularity there, it's not quite the same as you will get with a golden trail series. So I would argue that the series is really important in today's day and age, in our sport.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think that's kind of like a pro and con of just professionalization of the sport in general, because most athletes' contracts are covering these series and so it's like, you know, when Pikes Peak leaves Golden Trail, like your contract probably says Golden Trail Race Top 10, not Pikes Peak Marathon, mammoth Trail Fest, like all these races, and so it's like you look at your contract and you think, oh well, shit, I actually don't have time for that this year because I need to make a little bit of money before I do this race or whatever. And so unfortunately, yeah, I agree, I think a race almost has to be a part of a series to be successful in a way, and maybe not successful is the right word, because I think, like something like Mammoth Trail Fest, tim's probably going to be doing just fine this year without Golden Trail because it kind of just brought in like that small, like elite field. But that's not the case for every race. You know, there's definitely like the festival vibe that brings people.
Speaker 3I think races that aren't as much of a festival vibe like Pike's Peak, Mar Marathon and Ascent type stuff suffer once they don't have the series attached to them. Yes, oh, sorry, no, dani, you can go. Yeah, something interesting that I was thinking about is, like Mammoth Trail Fest, their inaugural year. They're part of Golden Trail World Series, and so I was just…. It was the second year actually. Oh, that's right, cause you were a champion the first year.
Speaker 1I've won all three. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3Yes, I forgot about that. Amazing. But I was just looking at their website and they have wait lists for all the races and so it almost it was like a marketing opportunity, like a not paid for, but it's interesting to have a race. It be a series like right off the bat, versus already pre-existing creating sdna and then a series coming to it.
Speaker 1Sorry but I would argue that that is more of the festival thing, right, like I think that there's something about the trail fest, the mammoth or, uh, the broken arrow weekend that brings in so much more community than other races, um, in the us that makes them almost like immune to that. Yeah, like, fall off, and I could be wrong but no, I think you're right, yeah oh sorry, we're all like getting very excited about this
Speaker 3one, but also it's like um in socal, because mammoth is five hours from la five to six hours. We don't have a ton of like you're saying races like this. It's Broken Arrow and Mammoth Trail Fest. The likelihood of you getting to Broken Arrow is getting less and less each year, and so if I was a person who's like I want to go to the mountains this summer in California you have all of SoCal, the whole central coast as well. It's like I would sign up for M with Trell Fest if I didn't get into Broken Arrow. So maybe geography as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so. And to MK's point, like I think that the Broken Arrow effect, brandon, what he's done to create such a powerful weekend and something that it's like such a like, something you want to bring your family to. You know, it's not just like athletes going out now, it's athletes bringing their whole family and enjoying that weekend. And like I think they've become immune to like whether golden trail series sticks around with them or not. I think there's no, like it doesn't even matter for them. Yeah, and I think Tim's done a damn good job too. And the reason I said that it's like now, with the 200 mile race he's rolling out he just announced craft as a new sponsor.
Speaker 2Like I think they've gotten very creative and I think that festival weekends, um, cause we talk about this internally at all the time I'm just like, look at what they've been able to create. I think everything that they do is just really, really thought through, very class act, um, very professional. I don't know. To me I think that race will be around for a very long time. Like I think what they've created, uh does doesn't need something like the golden trail series or something like that. But you look at, like Mount Washington, which is a kind of I don't want to say like it's become significantly smaller of the years. The tracks upfront some really talented athletes, um, but it's without those athletes, without some of the fields that it attracts. It's not necessarily what it used to be.
Speaker 1It doesn't have the depth.
Speaker 2It does not, and I think that's a shame. Even Mount Marathon I think Mount Marathon is kind of its own thing and is not necessarily immune to this but what they've been able to create in that town of Seward, just their system that they have with that community, is something that is a great example of, doesn't really need a series or anything, just because it's just so special and so unique and different.
Speaker 1Well, and maybe that's so, maybe that's the key is that if you, you have to like work with the region or like the city or whatever it happens to be, cause I think about Sears and all, like the city or whatever it happens to be, because I think about Sears and all, and Sears and all is iconic because it is so like such a big part of the community there.
Speaker 1Like they have, I think, three or four different sections. You have like walkers, you have, you know, joggers I don't remember what they call them, but there's like three different sections and pretty much everyone that lives in that area has been completing the race in some shape or form for years. Like you go there and there's still like Sears and all trail signs all the way up, you know, on it and stuff. Really good job of working with the community that they're in to like create this space for the race where it like benefits the whole community instead of just being like some random race. So maybe that's the key is like opening it, yeah, community and bringing that into it, because Zagama, I imagine, is a very similar way as well.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, I mean, there's people that grow up cheering, you know, hiking the course? Um, they have pamphlets with like little kids out there, like little soccer teams, you know, like this is their team event, that they like cheer on runners?
Speaker 1Um, they don't need a series because they have community and and like support in that way.
Speaker 2And that's what you want to see. Like this is what I envision. Like I want to see more American mountain running where you have something like a like a Zagama or a series and all, where we have more people just on course with cowbells and like shearing and just getting so excited. Just more fans. I think that's the million dollar question is like how do we just create more fans from, from these communities?
Speaker 1Honestly seeing the escarpment at Western States this year because they opened up the trams and people were able to go up there like such a cool thing, like you just have to offer those opportunities to community, I think, and they're likely to take them.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, I wrote this down. I don't think we meant to do this intentionally, but it's kind of what it evolved into. But we started with, like what makes a series great, or like you know pros and cons, and we've almost narrowed it down to like how can you do that at the race level and like, basically, what makes a race great, what makes it iconic? You know so much that it like lives. It can live with or without a series, um, so yeah, it's just super interesting.
Speaker 3I almost like think too, though, what with pike's peak? When I think of pike's peak granted, I'm looking at it from a lens of a professional runner what to me made it iconic is the impossible records, the impossible records that could not be broken. I mean, the women's record still stands by Kim Dobson, and so having such a high tier athlete like Remy Bonet like that's my project I think that even brought even more like new eyes to it and being like what's this record that Remy's trying to beat? And so I was trying to ask myself, can a race be iconic without elite presence or like professional presence, because that's a lot of the visible storytelling or is it like just really really good storytelling when it all comes down to it?
Speaker 2I think storytelling, I think a compelling course you know, I think a really compelling course is so important, but I think the storytelling thing too, because it just adds, like remy bonet came there and not only did he break the record the second year, but he also broke the um, like lowered his incline record and just added to the mythos of like who this, this swiss runner, is.
Short Trail vs. Sub-Ultra Debate
Speaker 2So, yeah, I I think there's there's so many cool opportunities for storytelling around these races and this goes to an even like bigger conversation of what is ultra do I think, so much better than short trail? And they do a really good job of telling the stories around the athletes around these races. And I think that's where, like, I personally need to step up and want to step up and I want to see others as well, because, like, doing more videos and having those conversations around these athletes, like telling more of the stories of like who these athletes are pre-race and just getting more into the suffering and things like that, whereas I think that's the, it's the relatability in a lot of ways as well. So, Sweet.
Speaker 1Do we want to dive into any more on that?
Speaker 3I feel like no, I feel like this is just a one-liner. Is we want live heart rate data? Yes, just races in general. Vk series with heart rate yes, Garmin can be a sponsor, or Suunto. There you go, there you go.
Speaker 1We want live heart rate data. We want, yeah, some sort of like. I mean, I want this on the tour too. Like Tommy and I are like where are the watts? Show us the Watts. And it's like they're never going to show us their Watts, cause that's like their main weapon, you know. But oh, it would be so fun to watch like a VK with just like somebody's like Remy. I would love to see Remy's heart rate data for the Pikes Peak Ascent record.
Speaker 3Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2I data for the pikes peak ascent record.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it might. Yeah, I don't know, I've looked, I've looked for it.
Speaker 3Oh okay, I'm sure he's hidden that it's like 120.
Speaker 1Yeah, he was sandbagging that day oh gosh all right um one question I do have that.
Speaker 2We didn't get to yet. Um and mk, you added this in the chat short trail versus sub-ultra conversation.
Speaker 1I feel like this should close out part one.
Speaker 2Okay, we also have equipment All right, let's do equipment, and then we'll close out part one with short trail versus sub-ultra.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah, I don't know that I have much of an opinion on this. So if you guys do feel strongly about anything, I don't feel strongly.
Speaker 3I'll just call what it is mk. And I have been called out for our podcast being called the sub hub, but just in general.
Speaker 3It's in general. It has been brought up more recently than not whether or not we should call this distance of racing, ie anything undera 42k, because anything beyond a marathon distance is considered an ultra. Um, and in europe they call it short trail. Uh, in the us I was always from when I entered the sport eight years ago was told it was sub-ultra. But there's this perspective that using the word sub means that it's less than in a negative connotation when in just vernacular and common.
Speaker 1Less than in distance.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's like the sub-two-hour marathon, like there's nothing negative about that. It's defining what's possible and impossible for human physiology over the marathon distance, which is exciting. The sub four project was recent with Faith Kipugon in the mile to try and become the first woman to break four minutes in the mile. So in those cases people are like super fired up. So in those cases people are like super fired up. But yeah, there's just of opinions whether we should be calling it short trail instead of it being less than ultra.
Speaker 1Yeah, but no opinion.
Speaker 3I was just trying to provide details.
Speaker 2I want to give a shout out to Noah Williams, who called me out on this recently. We were chatting about it. I wouldn't say called me out, but we had a very constructive conversation about yeah, he brought up the same thing. He's like dude, like in America, why do we call it a sub ultra? He's like, and I, he his take was we do it to separate from ultra. It's two separate things, yada, yada, yada, whereas in, obviously in Europe, it's called short trail. I for one, want to start the movement back of calling it short trail. I think it's just such a better way of conveying the stories, conveying the conversation. Um, not, that sub isn't great. I'm fine with that. I just think it's a better way of saying it, in my opinion. I don't know, um, but like we all you guys have sub hub in your name. I literally write, I talk about sub all the time, you know, so it's like it's synonymous and I, I, you know it's synonymous with like, I don't know what do you guys think?
Speaker 3do you think you're um? Shout out to noah, yes, um. Do you think, when you're thinking about storytelling, why is it like, if someone has never heard of the sport of trail running and you're explaining it to them, you just feel like it would be easier to explain it?
Speaker 2I think a little bit Also, like it comes back to the conversation like Noah brought up to me, and it's like this was, and I really do agree with this A lot of the reason we might say it, or where this was adopted was the separation from ultra running.
Speaker 2Right where ultra running has captivated audiences more so in north america, like I, I think the the larger fan base, if anything, is more attracted to the ultra running, the longer stuff as opposed to the lesser and not even saying less or lesser distances and, um, I think it's up to us to like figure out like okay, maybe short trail storytelling is easier conversation and it separates it from ultra even more and provides more separation from that as opposed to saying sub ultra.
Speaker 3So do you think ultra should be rebranded, as long?
Speaker 2trail. I think so. I think it's that's what it should be called, do you?
Speaker 3think podcasts will start calling it Long Trail. I would be of the opinion that people in the ultra who are like super, super ultra fans because I mean MK, and I have heard before sub-ultra being called the JV squad, which was really Which- don't even get me freaking started.
Speaker 1Don't get me started.
Speaker 3Very just tells me they haven't really been in the sport.
Speaker 1Hate attention.
Speaker 3Yeah, but like ultra is such a cool word, word it's kind of sexy, like you know it's. It's like mega, it's huge, it's ultra. And then we're in the short trail space. We're like no, let's all be on the same page. You guys should call it long trail. I think it'd be like no, why would we call it long trail?
Speaker 1my, my, my vote for SubUltra is just that it covers more of what we're talking about. Yep, because I have, like my aunt. There's something that I say all the time. You know, and I'm sure you guys have said this before. They'll be like, well, how far did you run today? And I'll be like, oh, only 10. You know, and they're like that's bullshit. Like only 10 miles, like that's not a short run, right, and so, um, I just imagine telling someone who's new to this sport like, oh well, a 42k is short trail. It's like that's not a short race, it's sub, it's less than an ultra, it's sub ultra, but like a short trail race in my head is like the vk and the classic distance but that could be our american perspective too, because it's like so ingrained in us.
Speaker 2And I've also had this chat with other folks like Michelino loves to call it mountain running. He says mountain running is different than trail running. I agree with that.
Speaker 3I think there's a distinction on that and it's like what is that?
Speaker 1Is that a sub?
Speaker 2category.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's like in the sub ultra category because there's plenty of like trail races in the us especially that are short trail, that are definitely not mountain running.
Speaker 3Yeah, like most us races yeah, but like cirque series mountain running easily I'd call that mountain running.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's definitely not a trail, you know, or like it's. Yes, it is on a trail, but it's not. I don't know. When I think trail running, I kind of think of something a little bit flatter, more buffed out. I don't know.
Speaker 1Anything in California, pretty much.
Speaker 3But I will say like explaining this to like my aunt, she'd be like that's all really. That's all mountain running, that's all hard work. In my perspective, you're going uphill, that's all hard. In my perspective, you're going uphill, that's mountain running, and I'm like no, no, no, that's trail running.
Speaker 2Let me ask you guys a question. I don't know if you've ever felt this way, because I know you've covered some 50Ks and stuff like that. Do you guys feel weird covering 50Ks as well? I feel like, oh, this is out of my niche. Like when I was talking about speed goat last week, I felt a little out of my, out of my niche, even though it's just four miles longer, like, like then, like then stuff that I normally do, like I don't know, but it's still like technically ultra.
Speaker 1Yeah, we just I mean Danny and I feel like both kind of. At least I came into the sport doing more 50 Ks than like short trail stuff, cause that was what was available and so so for me it just like makes sense, but also it's like, unfortunately, the redheaded stepchild of ultras. For some reason like they're like oh, a 30 we don't claim race, yeah, yeah so we try to give it love, you know yeah, I think we nuance it.
Speaker 3We'll say, like sub ultras and 50ks to like still create that line. Or like, hey, we're gonna give the 50k some love, even though it's not because like sub ultras and 50ks to like still create that line. Or like, hey, we're gonna give the 50k some love, even though it's not because if you run a 50k.
Speaker 1You damn well deserve to call yourself an ultra runner oh, for sure, those things are so hard.
Speaker 3Yeah, um, but yeah, that's a, that's a good way to put it. It's kind of yeah, it's such an interesting distance that no one wants to claim, even though it's great. It's such a great distance it has its own, like, level of storytelling, different from golden trail, circ series and stuff like that.
Speaker 2Um, so, maybe our sport? Sorry, I was just gonna say one, no go for it? Maybe our sport? Do we have an identity crisis, then, with our?
Speaker 1we do? We don't know like what we are yet what am I?
Speaker 2I don't know like what we are yet.
Speaker 3What am I? I don't know. No, I agree, I'm just like of that space that, like what's called when it comes to words, like emotions tied to a word, is based on an individual's life experiences and perspectives. You know, like a word is just a word until you have an experience with it, and so, like the word sub is like so neutral. To me it truly means less than, but like people being like taking it as like a shot to their ego, like, oh, I'm less than something else. It's like no less is more. Sometimes, like literally, that's one of the best mantras in life, that's all to say. I don't feel well. It seems like I'm defending sub ultra.
Speaker 1I um like what's it called the benefits. Either way, either way, yeah, I think to your point, james.
Speaker 3it's like maybe we all should just have like a big group meeting and like what are we? How are we going to define this? Because we don't know, and let's just all be on the same page so not to confuse audiences too, because our sport is already so confusing to like the person coming in. I mean, I was confused for like five years. I'm still confused. I'm still confused Actually.
Speaker 2The thing is, too, is like even if we, even if we do become an Olympic sport, like every like sub ultra in general is probably like one of our disciplines is probably going to be the one that gets probably just like classic. Yeah.
Speaker 1Just classic mountain racing is probably what will make the cut. So, and that is short trail or short mountain what who?
Speaker 3knows, I know short trail, short classic mountain we need a committee meeting.
Speaker 2We need whenever we get like a governing body we need yeah we need to just coin the phrase and call it.
Speaker 3Call it what it is but it almost should go to people who aren't in the sport because we're so close to it and, like I said, we have emotions already attached to certain things and you know certain camps. So almost go to like every other sport and be like to you. What would make the most sense, Like when you see short trail, what does that mean to you, you know? And when you see long trail, what does that mean to you and all the fun things. I think that would potentially be the committee, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I agree, I agree, so we're going to.
Speaker 3So we agree on being confused.
Speaker 1Put a pin in it.
Speaker 3Well, I mean we'll make an effort to start saying short trail. So if you start saying short trail, I mean to the point of our collab folks, there's only two podcasts right now.
Speaker 1That's true.
Speaker 2That focus on this Not super deep when it comes to short trail podcasts out there.
Speaker 1But we're all you need. So yeah, that's right. Oh man, I feel like we covered a lot in this first little bit.
Speaker 3I mean we might cut that halfway.
Speaker 1Yeah, we might have to cut this one too. So if you guys are listening, you're like what the hell? This is the beginning of the second podcast.
Athlete Longevity and Career Paths
Speaker 3Um, do we want to switch to? So we have two topics left athlete longevity, longevity, um. And then athletes who are on fire. Yes, yep so yeah athlete longevity.
Speaker 1Yeah, we start with that. I think we close it out with talking about the people we love and the people that are crushing it in the sport right now yeah, so I'll kind of do a couple thoughts on this.
Speaker 3It's interesting having like tim tollefson as like a friend, slash mentor, because he's said this a couple times and he's said it on like free trail, trail gating as well. If he had the opportunities that now short trail athletes have, he probably would have focused on the 50K distance longer because he loves it. It's like he's great for his strength.
Speaker 1He's very good at it. I can't remember the last time he's on the 50K distance longer because he loves it.
Speaker 3It's like great for his strength. He's very good at it. I can't remember the last time he's lost a 50K, but when he was coming up in the sport all the money was in ultra running.
Speaker 1Which was still barely anything, but it was something.
Speaker 3Yeah, and so now that there are opportunities and athletes do have the option to focus on short trail or long trail, um, I'm just trying to think of, like, does that really extend your career because you take something like golden trail? Last year, they were asking you to do four big races plus a final, which was a prologue, so like if you really committed to the series, that's six races alone, not you know, and there's probably other stuff on your calendar. So it's like, yes, we can race more often, but what? What is that? How is that any different from someone doing two ultras in a year? You know?
Speaker 1Yeah, I think this is an interesting point because I do think that's that short trail offers more longevity in theory.
Speaker 1Um, like I look at Judith Whiter, I look at Joseph Gray, I look at um, trying to say oh even I mean even Killian, like if you look at his career, he's either running short trail races or he's doing like 100, 100 mile a year, you know, um, and so I think that it's like because the races are shorter, you're not, you might be racing more frequently and maybe that can take a toll over time if you're not taking care of your body, not eating enough, overtraining, et cetera, but you don't get as many. Like big, serious shocks to your system, like rhabdo or heat stroke, you know, like at Western States, or just like having hallucinations at UTMB, I don't know. Like stuff like that, like that's serious stuff that will stick with your body for the rest of your life, whereas just like kind of beating the crap out of your muscles every two to three weeks, I don't think has the same out of your muscles every two to three weeks, I don't think has the same effect on your body long-term.
Speaker 2I agree, I think we've entered the phase now and we're starting. I think you're starting to see the beginning of it, like you're seeing Max King. I think Max King is 45 years old, joe Gray's 41, 42. Um, indy Wacker's a bit younger, he's 36. Judith is, you know, like a lot of these athletes have been. You know, killian can't be anything older than 36.
Speaker 1He's like 38 or 37 or 38. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2So you're starting to see, like I think, with these specific athletes that have been around the game for a long time, I think it's a career, obviously. My question is and to piggyback off that, with more money flowing into the sport, all these really high end athletes coming out of college and going into trail, will we see more? I think two things. Will we see more of a career trajectory where these athletes stay in the sport for 10, 15, 20 years and then maybe go into commentary, do something different, like will it be a true um, like a true profession, like in a lot of ways, whereas, like in the past, it's been more one-offs, where it's been less of a profession.
Speaker 2People are always doing something on the side or having full-time careers while they're in their trail lives, um, but we see that. Or will they be moving up in distance and continuing their careers that way? Um, we're sticking around sub ultra, where you can do that, and stay in the career that way. We're sticking around sub ultra, where you can do that and stay in the career that way. So I think there's a lot of questions as we start to professionalize even more, so into the next five to 10 years of the sport.
Speaker 1Well, and I think another like point to add to that is kind of to bring this back to like the very top of our discussion is the UTMB effect. Discussion is the UTMB effect. I think that unfortunately, the UTMB effect incentivizes people to move up quicker than they would have even like two, three years ago Like Golden Trail was the premier short trail thing to do you made a lot of money doing it. You were incentivized because they would pay you to go to the next event or they wouldn't pay you but they would help you get there. You know stuff like that pay you, but they would help you get there. You know stuff like that.
Speaker 1Whereas now it's like you know you could make your career off of OCC, so you race 50k's to get in. And then it's like oh well, I've done OCC, could I do CCC? And like make a little bit more money from my sponsor because my sponsor's probably like giving me more money for this race because it's further. And then it it just like yeah, I think that that might change what we see in the next couple of years. Like I even look at somebody like Roberto De Lorenzi and I feel like he's already like moving up because there's more financial incentive in these like 50K plus distances than there was like two years ago.
Speaker 3I don't know how you feel about it, danny yeah, roberto's been running trails for a while, though I know he's younger, um, but it's kind of like that classic like your training age versus like your actual age, um, I've seen that come up a handful of times.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely but he's not, he's not. He's not making a, possibly not making a career out of short trail, like some of these other athletes have.
Speaker 2He is moving up you know, and Francesco, francesco's a great example. He moved up recently or semi-recently, yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think it's. It comes back to the sponsors honestly.
Speaker 2Yeah, because to me that dictates a lot.
Speaker 3It is very clear that we can speculate that they're taking very good care of Remy Bonet and Sophia Lockley, both coming off of overall wins of the Golden Trail World Series, the premier short series. Granted, they are the title sponsor, so that's clear, that that's what they're into versus other teams that appear to be ultra heavy.
Speaker 1I'd have to see every name on their list, um I mean I say it's probably most brands are ultra heavy, outside of maybe solomon and yeah solomon's pretty ultra. Yeah, brooks is kind of changing the game a bit, but yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker 3Um. So, yeah, it's, it's hard. I think, when it comes down to it, it's always money and depending on, like your own personal values and like what you value in that moment. So like, yeah, like nothing against Tim Tolson for choosing what was going to support his life at the time Right and provide for himself and his wife and stuff like that life at the time right and provide for himself and his wife and stuff like that.
Speaker 3I personally didn't get paid for years because I didn't want to move up and you know, it was kind of like a long time coming. Now I'm reaping some benefits from it, but it was like almost a decade's worth of investment on my end and being, admittedly, very stubborn, like you know, eight years in, I'm finally running further than a 55 K and during those eight years I've seen, uh, women my age like have really big years and then disappear, you know, because it was just too much. Um, so yeah, I think it comes back to like what you really want to do, right Cause, like in the track and field world, you have people that never run further than a hundred meters for a race and make a ton of money, and then you have people that are marathoners never run further than a marathon. They'll never run a 50K in their life and make tons of money. But again, that's all the sponsorship, backing and having. I also.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, Keep going Sorry.
Speaker 3Oh, and just like kind of choosing your battle and meeting the industry for where it's at in this moment. And now we're finally at a point where short trail athletes can make, I don't want to like say like just as much, very close maybe. I don't think it's completely equal yet.
Speaker 1Yeah Well. So I think that is geographical in some ways. Yeah, because I think as a US short trail athlete, you have way less opportunities to make money, like at short trail races, just because we don't have as many. But if you're a European short trail athlete, instead of being like, okay, I'm going to go run UTMB and try to win and make 20k, you're like run UTMB and try to win and make 20K, you're like I have a race in you know this, the town next to me every other weekend and I can just make $2,000, $2,000, $2,000, $2,000. So it's like you're totally right, I think.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it depends too on where you live If you can kind of make those decisions of like being Judith Weider and being like I really enjoy short trail. So like I'm just going to race all these local races and make money, whereas, like for us, it's like you got broken arrow. You know you can make some big money and then after that it's like I got to go to France to make money off of a short trail race. So it's like way more of a commitment and if your sponsors aren't behind it, you're kind of out of luck and you got to move up almost.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I don't want to say like I mean, it's this is difficult thing to say, cause obviously a lot of ultra races are extremely competitive, but I just think the depth when it comes to sub ultra, as far as just like athletes you've never even heard of just being so good, Um, there's just so much depth. It's so much harder, I think, to win something like that. Not that it's not hard to win, obviously it's extremely hard to win like a utmb or something like that but like I'll back that comment.
Speaker 1Yeah, if you're taking your average.
Speaker 2If you're taking your average ultra race versus your average sub ultra race or something like that, I think the depth is just, it is so competitive, um, so it's a harder payday, harder to make that money if you will, if you have the slightest thing go wrong, um, but then again the slightest thing could go wrong in ultra, so maybe I'm just yeah I don't know um no I agree with everything you guys are saying, so yeah, it's definitely.
Speaker 3It is interesting also just thinking of the lens because, like, sometimes I'll like during this injury, when I didn't know when I was going to race again and I'm like, okay, I haven't made money off a race in eight months and so going into May, before Broken Arrow, I was just Googling. I'm like prize money, trail race, you know, like marathon, as like a tune-up for Broken Arrow, and the only things I could find was like, if you break the 100K record at our race, if you break the 100 mile record at our race, and I'm like, okay, or what's it called, uh, or just like place in like the 100 miles, like and we also have a 25k, and I was like, dang it, you know, just like trying to find something too. It's, it's little to none, uh, which is pretty tough. But yeah, at least give me like a block of cheese, like they do in europe or some, yeah, yeah six pack of beer in germ.
Speaker 3like every race, you're getting beer, yeah.
Speaker 2I think it was Manuel Morales. Like he, he had posted, like I think, a prosciutto he had won, like in Spain. I was like, oh, dude, like that's the good stuff right there.
Speaker 2That's not bad. Um, I do have one question, and this is a conversation I actually had semi recently and this kind of goes to the G geographic distribution. But this is a conversation I actually had semi recently and this kind of goes to the geographic distribution, but this is more geographic distribution for contracts. I had this conversation with Dan Kurtz when he was kind of coming up and you know, obviously Dan Kurtz is one of the most talented athletes to ever enter a sport in a lot of ways and just having him come in and having a really hard time coming, being from the Northeast and trying to get signed, whereas it's a little, I feel like it's easier being in Boulder, being on the front range of Colorado, being in California, being maybe in the Pacific Northwest where a lot of the brands are located. Have you guys seen this or what are your?
Speaker 1thoughts on just geographic in America. I would agree with that. I mean because I think that sponsorship is a lot about who you know, who you're rubbing elbows with and a lot of the like. Athletes on the Northeast just don't get that same exposure. Because, I mean, the U? S is freaking massive. So just being like, well, why don't you just go run the races in California? It's like that's a lot of money, you know, like it costs just as much to travel across the U? S as it does to go to Europe. Um, so I'll go to Europe where people still don't know me. I think it's definitely geographical. I think, um, you know, I've seen a lot of big bias, like in the Boulder community, like of just people getting sponsored because they know the right people, uh, but definitely I would say it's more of a West coast, central to West coast kind of heavy um sport in terms of like finding those opportunities.
Speaker 3Yeah, oh for sure A, oh for sure, 100. Um, I think that's why I like the like. Something like an uphill championship or something like where you're bringing the regions together. Um, because yeah to mk's point is, like the us north america's ginormous big place the us is ginormous like to be able to bring athletes actually like have them, you know, duke it out against each other like East Coast, west Coast athletes, so sponsors could see that would be really, really cool. Because, yeah, I've also run on the East Coast. Those trails are freaking treacherous man.
Speaker 3And like watching the circ series stories of the ones you guys just did, I was like, oh my gosh, like you really have to keep your eye on it. Centipede scramble with the us championship. Like having videos on it to show, like how gnarly it is. Um, but yeah, I think that's honestly just. It's very, it's a very similar what's it called? Like to the silicon valley. Like if you want to work in tech, like you're trying to get to Silicon Valley. There's like other tech hubs starting to show up because California is freaking expensive and I think companies have realized how expensive it is. But it's like that's just where the business meccas are like in America in general.
Speaker 3Like I'm trying to think East Coast, it's New York, and so you think of the industries that come with New York. Atlanta, georgia is coming up Like yeah, it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 1Yeah, just move to Boulder, you'll get picked up by somebody.
Speaker 3Just move your entire life. Spend all of your money.
Speaker 1I'm just a hater because I think West Coast is better anyways than living in Colorado. Sorry.
Speaker 2James no, I have to agree with you, there's better spots in the country. For sure, colorado is pretty expensive.
Speaker 1Nah, colorado is great. I do love it, but I think it's a biased thing for sure.
Speaker 3But that's why it's up to companies to hire team managers. Like, oh my gosh, my dream job post so if any sponsors are out listening would be to be a talent scout. I think that'd be so much fun because, like, if you have someone that can actually run trails, understands the industry, say like I go, they send me out to Sunapee like 10 years from now, and I like run a loop course and I'm like, okay, I know what type of skill it's going to take to run this course. Great, because I have all the experience. The race happens. I'd be able to be like that's an impressive performance. Let's talk to that athlete. So like having a town scout or reps or whoever's making your team decision so well-versed in the space that they can identify like that sleeper talent that's coming up, that'd be so cool.
Speaker 2You know, on that topic, did you know? I can't his name escapes me. Courtney Coppinger and I were just talking and whoever put together they? Basically for this year they put together a team of more developmental athletes on the Brookside. That's where your Taylor stack, sydney Peterson a lot of those athletes that we'll talk about in a few kind of came from and they kind of stacked it out based off of athletes that have a lot of promise and will develop and things like that, and they kind of built it around that and I was like, ooh, whoever had an eye and picked those athletes like crushing it, bravo, like really good. Yeah, I love that Brooks is really investing in the sub ultra set.
Speaker 1Yeah, cause it does seem uh hard for athletes to, or for teams to, invest in up and coming talent.
Speaker 3In the same way, brooks has just like sent it this year, unlike most of the team well, even courtney, because she I believe she was running with under armor before yeah, um mega pickup by them, like also like just identifying that talent. So yeah, whoever that person is female or male, we just want to chat we want to chat. We want to chat no, I love it.
Speaker 3I guess I know we only if you run short races, you probably can have a really long and successful career. Yes, um, you might come up in the industry. It's a little tougher to negotiate contracts, but keep at it and remember whenever you're negotiating you're also negotiating for the future of short trail, so very true.
Speaker 1Wrap that sucker up. I know we only have a couple more minutes left to record here, so we should do some mid season honors.
Mid-Season Honors and Rising Stars
Speaker 2Let's do it, let's do it. I'll, uh, I'll, hop on this one for, just for the U? S based athletes. Um, just some names that have popped up, and there's, there's quite a list. Um so, and if we've left anybody out, we love you all. No disparagement. There's so many amazing performances this year so far Noah Williams I had on the list Anna Gibson Big shout out to Ryan Becker, who literally just won Speed Goat this past weekend. Andy Wacker, jane Moss, grayson Murphy, jen Lichter, who also just won Speed Go 50K and set the course record, absolute monster performance. Eli Hemming, david Sinclair, joseph Gray, christian Slim, reaper, allen Cam Smith, david Norris and Claire Rhodes. Is there any specific people we want to pick out? Talk about some performances, anything that jumps out to you guys.
Speaker 1Danny and I talked about this a little bit on our last pod. But big, big, big Jen Lichter year and I know Free Trail just did their mid-season Troy watch. Jen Lichter should have been on that list. She is knocking it out of the park this year and I think she's. I just saw that she actually dropped out of OCC to uh, focus on world championships and get ready for that, and that gives me chills a little bit, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 2Is Jen Lichter. I mean, she's my, I would say, the best mountain 50K runner arguably on the planet right now, like one of the best, if not the best.
Speaker 1Don't even get me started. I talked about this on the pod too. I said, jen, why are you not in short trail world championships?
Speaker 3I'll forgive you for doing long trail, but oh yeah, I think this year at this point she is at the top of the list for sure. Meow yeah-Yow just had a big win at Val d'Aurain on a really technical course Great battle against Sylvia Nordikstar. So I think if Meow backs that up with a huge OCC, then they're definitely tiered tier. So, yeah, that's the only other performance that comes straight out. Toni McCann also had a great uh course record performance at La Verado, but I'll just call it is. I think that course record was weak on the women's side, um, and she did it without pressure, um, so I think if she had a little bit of pressure to, I'd also put that like right there. But a course record is a course record. Yeah, yeah, um, but I I wanted to call it.
Speaker 3So yours was Jen, I mean Anna Gibson I don't know if she was on that, I mean she's just an obvious pick. But the two of them together because this is North American focused, us based are in my top tens currently. If I were to vote for Troy right now, just both have had super, super fire years and Ana's most impressive performance to me was the Zagama-Sanapy scramble back-to-back. I just like having to run that race just incredibly difficult to come back and beat that field with that much dominance. Just yeah, I think that was such a stellar performance. And then the vk just leading with how short that race was, um absolute fire there yeah, yeah, absolute, yeah, crusher, crusher.
Speaker 2Um, I gotta say I gotta give ryan becker like ryan becker has become a friend over the last few months and I just have to say, like, sing his praises. Uh, like this one, along with the broken arrow 46k coming on the podium there. Um, you know, in third place, I, I, I have to sing his praises for, you know, finally getting a big one at speed go. You know, now he's a forever speed go champion, which is pretty cool. Um, and I think Ryan has been searching for that big win, I think in his like on his resume. Um, that might, as he's very much so searching to try and get a contract and kind of move into that, that area in his life. Um, and I hope this is the one that does it. So I definitely got to give some giant praise to ryan becker ryan is not sponsored no, no, what?
Speaker 2yeah, we got to put that one out there, like yeah, if you're an athlete manager. Listening to this like like give ryan becker a call you want to talk about consistency in this sport.
Speaker 1Like that man has been on like every podium of the 50k he's ever ran.
Speaker 2It feels like he rarely misses top 10 in the like. I think he was eighth at the broken arrow ascent. Yeah, like, just so consistent, like probably, like if we were to have a, when it was all said and done, if we had like a hall of fame like ryan becker is like probably in our short trail hall of fame, always there at the end of the day, yeah, so yeah, definitely someone that, um, yeah was he ever sponsored? No, I think he worked with speedland for a little bit, but that was kind of it.
Speaker 3So, yeah, okay, wow well, sponsors, if you're listening to this, we just scouted you.
Speaker 2Yeah, did you work for it?
Speaker 3Yeah, did you work for it yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1All right, I do real quick want to give a shout out to Christian Allen, because Danny and I 100% counted him out for Son of Peace Scramble. Oh no, sorry for the VK because of his performance at Son of Peace Scramble and he came and backed that up with a massive day at the VK and then a great day at Golden Trail two days later. So I'm here for Christian Allen's stock for the rest of the year. It's on the up.
Speaker 3What did you call him Christian?
Speaker 1Sleepy Allen.
Speaker 3He calls himself Slim.
Speaker 2So I call him the Slim Reaper. It's off of a. I like it I think it's Kevin Durant's nickname uh, from basketball, so I kind of ripped it off of Kevin Durant.
Speaker 2But yeah, no, you know what Christian's another one Like. Just yeah, I I very much so felt the same way after Suna P. I was like man, is he coming back too soon after the stress reaction in his leg? Sure enough, like he, I love the way he races so aggressive like, puts himself in the race, sticks his nose in it. Yeah, christian, big fan of Christian, you guys want to talk international?
Speaker 1Yeah, we can do a quick little international rundown. Some athletes that we had listed for mid season watch were uh, remy LaRue, lucas Errol, madalena Floria El Huzin El Azawi, patrick Gipniano, philemon Ambogo, joyce, uh. Lauren Gregory. Lucille Germain has been crushing the Skyrunner scene. Joylene Chepnieno just won Mont Blanc Marathon. Sarah Alonso feels like an obvious one to me. Luca Del Perro, jose Quispe and Kimmy Schreiber Any names that you guys want to chat about real quick?
Speaker 3um well, on my, if I were to have a top 10 troy right now sarah lonzo, uh, would probably would be my number one to be honest across the board, just like super, super fire year, and just really bummed that she had an incredibly freak accident with a cow charging her and her breaking a rib. But she's hitting the cross training and, as we know, sarah is an incredible cross trainer and I think she's actually talking to her recently. She's hopeful she will come back for OCC. Recovery is going really well and I just think it's her year in OCC Like it's going to be a freaking hard race with the likes of Meow Meow, judith Weider, sophia Lockley, joylene Kipnego. But Sarah's just like so on fire. It would be really hard for me to bet against her and you know she's been through the ringer these last couple years, um, but she just always gets up. I'm just a big fan of fighters.
Speaker 1She's hungry.
Speaker 3She's hungry. Yeah, that's my shout.
Speaker 1I would give a shout out to Joylene Chipnino. Obviously came on the scene last year when she won Sears and All. She ran one Golden Trail race this year I think at China, but then hasn't done anything since. But she did show up at Mont Blanc Marathon, which we talked about having a 10 grand prize purse for first place, and I was really impressed that she beat Judith there, Like it was just. It was a long race for her in my head and so I still don't understand how she's in OCC. That's a whole nother conversation about UTMB, but I am excited to see her mix it in with those women. And on that note, we did not mention his name, Davide Magnini, on the comeback train.
Speaker 3Back from the dead.
Speaker 1Back from the dead. Back from the dead, like I'm imagining. He's not an OCC, unless he qualified last year and we just don't know it, which we could cause there's so many races, but would love to have seen him in that field.
Speaker 2Yeah, he's a monster. I like to, especially to come back after you know all that time of injury.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2One I do want to shout out Lucas Earl, like super impressive performance at broken arrow. You know I, super impressive performance at at broken arrow. Um, you know I, I just think he's he's so young.
Speaker 3But is he Danny? I think like 20, 21.
Speaker 2I think he's 20 because he wasn't able to check into his hotel. Okay, wow, a lot of opportunity there, young athletes, so it's going to be cool. Uh, to see um you know, see what he does. To see um, you know, see what he does.
Speaker 3Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. Um, and our last, last, last of this, uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1saga of a podcast Um we have a rising star slash.
Speaker 3Keep your eyes on slash. Break on star category Athletes that are catching our eye, having to break through years. We have Alexa Aragon, ruby Lindquist, marie neve, mason coppy taylor stack, courtney coppinger and sydney peterson, and this is obviously a little north american heavy because we just are.
Speaker 1I feel like we're on fire this year in terms of like depth in, uh, short trail in america. So a lot of rising stars we got here I just got a two.
Speaker 2I'll call out really quick Mason Copey what a season so far. Podium at Sunape got, you know, got himself his ticket to worlds. Um has just had uh, he won the Kendall mountain run into Colorado. I forget if he won, I don't know, I can't remember if he runs Cirque story snowbird. I knew he was there. I'm sure he won. Um was if not, he was on the podium. Uh, super consistent and just has, like, really achieved a new level this year. Uh, with all that hard work. So it's going to be very cool to see him on the world's team and what he's going to be able to do with the rest of the season. Um, big fan of Mason Copey. And then Taylor stack as well. Um, another one podium. Uh printed his ticket to uh to go to worlds as well. At Sunapee, um has had a great race at uh, the broken arrow, 23 K. Um, yeah, and then if somebody wants to take Courtney Coppinger or Coppinger, that's. That's another one that stands out as well.
Speaker 1You want to take that one, Danny?
Speaker 3He. Those are, honestly, my three. I couldn't agree more. No, no, it's great. I think we're all in the same wavelength. Courtney I mean she was a track professional for a little bit, got into the tech world, started to kind of mess a little bit with trails, was fifth at the Sun and Peace Scramble and is now on our Team USA and I think she's just like such in a good spot in life, like we crossed paths briefly in Santa Barbara and she just like she's radiating positive energy and I think that's really just like translating into her running when you're happy, you run well. And yeah, she's absolutely crushing it. I can't wait to see what she does at worlds. Honestly.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm such a fan. Yeah, it's. It's going to be very cool to see, like where, what she does with the rest of the year.
Speaker 1Um, and I'll give a quick Alexa Aragon shout out, because I don't really know, uh, how serious she is about getting into this, but uh, but Alexa Aragon is a sister of Danny and Christina Aragon, I think, both of them, who are huge track stars I imagine Alexa was probably one too, if I had to guess and she won a Cirque Series race very recently, which we love. We love seeing like college track stars coming out here and crushing Cirque Series races. That's the opportunities that we're looking for, you know. So watch out for Alexa.
Speaker 2Yeah, she was also, so she ran. She was a steeple at Notre Dame and also she was top 10 at the broken arrow scent and top 10 at the 23.
Speaker 1K this year. Yeah, yeah. She's on it.
Speaker 2Definitely want to look out for her, so cool.
Speaker 3Another steeplechaser. They crush classic.
Speaker 1Yeah, chaser, they crush classic. Yeah. Well, hopefully you guys enjoyed this as much as we did. I'm sure there's like two more hours of chatting that we could do about the state of sub ultra right now short trail, whatever we're calling it yeah, maybe we could touch base again at the end of this year.
Speaker 3Um, but if you guys don't already follow both of our podcasts the subhub podcast, the steep stuff podcast, spotify, apple, youtube, instagram hit that subscribe button. And if you guys liked part one, part two, uh, let us know in the comments of the the podcast that you are currently listening to right now, and if you are a mega fan, maybe you'll even drop a five-star review, or just let us know how you're liking the podcast.
Speaker 1Yeah, and let us know if you want us to do this again and if so, what topics do you want us to cover? Because we should. I'm sure we could yeah, I'm sure we could come up with some stuff, so oh yeah no, we could do.
Speaker 2You could do a lot more conversations. Uh guys, I just want to say thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. This was awesome.
Speaker 3Yeah, vice versa. This has been the sub podcast, and the steep stuff podcast Sorry. Awesome, you're good. All right, talk to you guys later, bye, bye.
Closing Thoughts and Appreciation
Speaker 2What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Such a blast getting to talk about the state of our sport, the sport that we love so much, and, uh, yeah, lots of good topics in there. Lots of good, uh, lots of good things to discuss. And, yeah, I just really want to thank Danny and Danny and MK uh so much for having me on the podcast, uh to chat and uh do this collaboration. It was a lot of fun and hope to do more in the future.
Speaker 2Um, guys, before you get going, you can find Danny and MK at the sub hub podcast. Give them a follow on instagram. Um, you get them first at the underscore sub hub underscore pod. If you don't already follow them on spotify, apple, youtube or wherever you consume your podcast, give them a follow. You can also find them on instagram directly at dan underscore yell underscore a for danny and mk at mk underscore or, sorry, at m K M K S U L L I. Um, give them both a follow. And, uh, yeah, let them know what you guys thought about the episode. Um, also, um, if you guys happen to enjoy this one, give us a five-star rating and review to both pods If you are uh really enjoying this one and, like I said, on Spotify, apple, youtube, it doesn't matter wherever you consume your podcast. Give us a follow, uh, and give us a review, and we'd really appreciate that. If you guys have questions, concerned comments, send us a DM, let us know.
Speaker 2I'd love to hear topics for another episode like this and I'd love to hear just what you guys are thinking. I know there was a lot of debate over this short trail versus trail running versus sub sub ultra. We have an identity crisis in the sport, so it's always good to get feedback from the listeners and you know listen. At the end of the day, we're just trying to do right by, you know, following and commentating on the sport. You know, elevating the profiles, these athletes. Whatever you guys want to call it, I don't care, it's the best sport on earth, so I'm sure we'll settle on a name at some point.
Speaker 2Guys, hope you have a great rest of your week. All kinds of good stuff coming down the pipeline. I've got interviews with Liam Miro as well as Matt Daniels dropping next week. All kinds of good stuff. Um, really appreciate it. And we've got some uh, a cool collaboration uh down the pipeline with one of the most famous runners to ever grace our support. So some good stuff in the pipe. Have a great rest of Thanks. So much, thank you. We'll see you next time.
