The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Sub-Ultra Mountain Running
The Steep Stuff Podcast
#114 - Matt Daniels
Matt Daniels opens up about his journey through the highs and lows of professional trail running in this wide-ranging, candid conversation. After battling significant health issues from mold exposure while simultaneously going through a divorce, Daniels shares how he's rebuilding his season around the prestigious Run Rabbit Run ultramarathon.
The conversation takes us behind the scenes of the phenomenally successful Boulder Boys podcast, which Daniels co-hosts. What started as casual conversations among friends has evolved into one of trail running's most popular media outlets, now part of Jonathan Levitt's podcast collective. Daniels' insights into this unexpected career development reveal how athletes can build platforms beyond their competitive results.
As a former Nike-sponsored athlete with experience at world-class events like Sierre-Zinal and Zegama, Daniels offers a rare perspective on the sponsorship landscape in trail running. At 37, he speaks frankly about how his priorities have shifted—now seeking partnerships that value his community contributions alongside race results. His partnership with Hyperlight nutrition exemplifies this approach, where relationship quality trumps transactional sponsorship.
Throughout the conversation, Daniels thoughtfully addresses the future of trail running, expressing concerns about potential Olympic inclusion while acknowledging the sport's growing professionalization. His training approach for Run Rabbit Run (focusing on time rather than mileage) and plans for races like JFK 50 and Black Canyon provide valuable insights for ultrarunners at any level.
Whether you're fascinated by the business side of trail running, interested in ultramarathon training approaches, or simply enjoy authentic conversations with thoughtful athletes, this episode delivers remarkable depth and honesty. Follow Matt on Instagram @mattdaniels480, check out the Boulder Boys podcast, and reach out directly if you're interested in his coaching services.
Follow Matt on IG - @mattdaniels480
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
What's up, boys and girls, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Laurielo, and I'm so excited to bring you guys an episode today. I've got such a good one for you, something I've been working on for a bit now. None other than the Boulder Boy himself, mr Matt Daniels, is on the podcast, caught up with Matt just as he's getting ready. He's in his training block right now for Run Rabbit Run, and we talked about all kinds of good stuff.
Speaker 1:One of the probably the most storied athletes in our sport Matt's been around for a long time and he brings a lot of experience with them. We talked about coaching and what it's like being a coach. We talked about short trail versus long trail. Matt's raced a ton of short trail Some of the most competitive short trail races in the world, like series and all Matt has been a part of. We talked about just career trajectories. We talked about agents and working with agents, sponsorship, where he's at now and where he wants to go with his career.
Speaker 1:So this was an amazing episode. I really appreciate Matt for coming on and being so candid and talking about so much good stuff. I think there's a lot of nuggets of wisdom in here that you guys will take away from. And you're just. I was left just becoming such even a bigger fan of Matt than I already was. So really good stuff here. I hope you guys enjoy it. I'll stop mumbling and get going so, without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy it. None other than Matt Daniels. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. When you used to be on a lot of like leaderboards and monument and when I used to, when I first moved down here to Colorado from Florida, like in monument Palmer Lake, colorado Springs, I'd always be chasing your crowns and I'm like that's kind of how I became a fan of you originally and then I learned about the sport and stuff like that. So it's kind of full, it's a full circle moment.
Speaker 2:It's kind of I noticed, yeah, I was noticing when you were getting some of those segments. I was like, oh man, new guy in town. But uh, yeah, I think uh, it was weird Cause I lived there for a very short period of time and uh, it was evident of cool. It seemed like every run I went on it was like, oh, there's a new segment and uh, but yeah, no, that's cool, that's kind of how you found found your way to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, for sure, For sure. It's a cool area too. That area is dope, Like lots of uh, it's kind of wild, Like the Palmer Lake area is just uh, it's pretty dope. So, dude, how are you doing? How's uh, how's your season going? Now I know you're getting ready for run rabbit. How's the buildup for that Like? What's uh, what have you been up to in the last few months?
Speaker 2:Oh, man, a lot I'm doing well actually. Um, yeah, the the season, well, it kind of like I've had a really interesting season, I guess, to put it lightly. Um, the year started off kind of interesting. I went through a divorce, um, and at the same time going through a divorce, uh, the house I'd moved into had a mold problem that I didn't know was was going on.
Speaker 2:So, um, I was just getting sick like every like every time I'd traveled to go race and come back I was like really sick, and so I was nailing it for some of the early season races and then some of them just, like you know, weren't happening and I was sick and I was having to pull out of a lot of races.
Speaker 2:And so I've kind of had this time period over the last few months where it's just been a focus on getting fully healthy and thinking about, like you know, what do I want out of, out of the rest of the season? And I knew it would be kind of a later, a later year. I wasn't going to be able to, like you know, race my way into Western States when, you know, in the in the middle of the year, I wasn't going to be able to do a lot of these big 50 Ks that I planned. I just wasn't feeling good and so um, run rabbit lined up well for that. Uh, and you know you can't ignore the big prize person, so that, um, you know, carried at the end of the stick there.
Speaker 2:And so, um, yeah, man, I'm doing good, I'm falling into training while I'm up here, uh, in Frisco, colorado, right now, kind of doing a little training camp getting ready for that and um, just yeah, enjoying, um, I've got a new coach so I'm enjoying kind of the training around that and and putting in some bigger days and in the mountains and just uh, I guess, yeah, kind of figuring out where fitness is and seeing what comes of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, I love it. I love it. All right, Let me. Let me. I'll jump into a bunch of things because I have so many questions for you. So I don't know if you know this, but like we're, I generally stick to like short trail stuff. But because I feel like I can have this conversation because you've done so much short trail and you kind of go back and forth between the two, like you're one of the best 50 K runners in the country, hands down, but you also do the long stuff too. So I feel like, okay, we can talk about both. Um, let's jump into the coaching conversation. I want to talk about that, Cause you are a coach and you recently said you just started working with a new coach. Who are you working with? And, um, like, how's that been kind of going for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh. So I started working with Cliff Pittman's um with uh cts and uh, cliff had reached out gosh, I guess it's been almost two years ago now um, when he noticed, you know, I was going through some stuff, uh, in my training and just not really enjoying the process and that sort of thing. And I, you know, I wasn't I don't know if I was ready for a coach at the time and um, kind of just finding my way with like trying to stay healthy and had a lot of life stuff going on. And then it just seemed like, uh, once I kind of just finding my way with like trying to stay healthy and had a lot of life stuff going on. And then it just seemed like once I kind of figured out about like the mold exposure that I was going through over the last few months and training was kind of just like at ground zero. It was like this is a good time to like hire a coach and really get focused on the things I want to focus on late in my career and that's some of the longer races.
Speaker 2:And you know, cts is a proven track record of coaching athletes throwing really well in 100 milers and I still, you know, obviously want to do, you know, some shorter stuff too. I have a lot of joy in that, and so Cliff just was a perfect fit and we hit it off. He's from Fayetteville, arkansas, and I used to live out there, uh, for a short period of time too, so we had a lot in common. Uh, he's an ex military guy as well, and so, yeah, it just seemed like the right fit and, um, it's been, it's been great. Um, yeah, I can't complain.
Speaker 1:Dude, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, on the topic of mold like, is that? Like that's not going to affect you? Like long-term, is it's funny? I've lived in a house before that we suspected had mold and it is crazy. Like once you move into a place that doesn't have mold, like what that? Like how much better you improve. It's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, it's up for debate on like you know how long it's going to affect me, and that's kind of what the doctor said too. But, uh, I think, luckily I I was only there for four months before I figured out what was going on. Um and um, luckily for me, I traveled a lot racing over the spring, and so it was kind of like every time I came back I was getting sick. And, um, I think most people that are exposed to like a mold exposure in a home and don't know it, they have no idea because they're just living in the same place the whole time and maybe they have like some symptoms like brain fog or stuffy nose or just kind of, you know, low level fatigue.
Speaker 2:But for me it was just like being hit by a bus every time I came back into town, and so that's how I knew it was like right away there's something going on here and it's with where I'm living, because this used to not happen where I was living before.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I got like I got tested to see like the mycotoxin levels in my system and the same levels showed up, uh, in the mold testing that I had done in the apartment that I was in and um, kind of figured it out really quickly and the doctor said you know it's um depends on the individual and how quickly they recover and uh, and what the exposure was like and and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:But it seemed like for me as soon as I moved out, um, pretty rapidly out pretty rapidly, things were trending in a better direction, like heart rate stuff was not as crazy. I definitely wasn't like sick all the time, energy levels and brain fog, you know, lifted. So yeah, it just took a good like probably a month and a half, two months to start feeling like a normal human again and I'm finally, um, yeah, at a point where I'm realizing like man I was. I was pretty sick for quite a few months there without you know really realizing how sick uh, and it was kind of a miracle that I was racing, you know with, you know through all that too.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm sitting at a really high level too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. But um, yeah, I mean, yeah, things are turning in the right direction now and I'm hoping it continues that way and there's no long-term side effects. But yeah, it's to be determined.
Speaker 1:Nah, dude, I love it. I love it. It's good to hear that you're on the other side of it and hopefully it's all good I got to get into the Boulder Boys podcast Cause like that's oh man, like I've been wanting to ask you this one for a long time.
Speaker 1:like amazing new show I can't even call it new because you guys have been around for a little bit now. Explain that to me. What does it feel like to be a member of this amazing group guys that you also train with and now you have an extremely successful but one of the most successful podcasts out there now, as it continues to grow? What's your take on that? Did you plan for that to happen? Talk about that.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks man. Uh, I no, we didn't plan on it happening. Actually, it's kind of one of those um crazy things. I, I mean, we've we've told the story a few times on a couple of different podcasts and maybe on our show a little bit, but, um, we're just kind of like a group of guys that like got together a lot for for dinners, you know, with our significant others, and um, hang out outside of running and then go on. You know your saturday and sunday long runs and you know shoot the shit and have conversation and uh, I don't know how it came up, but, um, I feel like, I feel like one day on the run we were just like let's, let's just do a podcast and see if it sticks. You know, because people have been um, like I think fin Finn Melantham is one of the guys who suggested it in the past and people started pointing this term the Boulder boys, you know, on the podcast every time like we'd be on and uh, that kind of stuck that way.
Speaker 2:And um, yeah, we did, we did one podcast and it was like we really thought like, okay, the only listeners are literally going to be our parents and our close friends and um, but pretty good numbers and people really liked the fact that we were a little bit more open and not reserved on it and just kind of ourselves and had our hot takes and opinions and, um, you know, that was kind of the point is we just wanted people to see like we're no different, uh, and, and this is just like sport of running, we experienced it just like, you know, most people do, except we run a little bit of a higher level sometimes, and so, uh, yeah, it just kind of snowballed, I guess, from that and it's been fun more than anything just to get together with the guys on a weekly basis and eat pizza and shoot the shit about whatever, um, and it's usually about running because we, we love it so much. And so, yeah, it's been, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, I can't complain.
Speaker 1:So cool. No, I love it. It's like a coffee club, but with trail it's kind of it's different. You know what? Um, it's kind of neat that you guys just joined the Jonathan Levitt's new podcast collective. Can you talk a little bit about, like what that, what that has been? Has that opened more doors for you guys, um, more opportunities like, and maybe just explain like what, what that really is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think Seth could probably speak a little bit more on it, um, than I could. But basically, jonathan was kind of um launching this new collective where he's he's helping athletes and brands, uh, get more exposure, um, through sponsorships and other, um, I guess, other benefits. You know the the kind of like, yeah, get your name out there. And he came to us at the beginning of this, I guess kind of right before he launched, and just said, hey, like I would love to help you guys out with a few things. There's a company that I think would be interested in working with you guys. They're based in Boulder, talk to. And then, yeah, kind of just from there, it was like having an agent working the deal. And then, yeah, kind of just from there, it was like having an agent working the deal.
Speaker 2:And never in our wildest dreams did we think we'd be making any money from the podcast. That's never been the goal or getting any sort of sponsorship or anything like that. But by working with these brands and having Jonathan's help, it's allowed our podcast to expand a little bit too and reach crowds that we didn't know really existed as well, and so it's been cool to kind of see that that change and, you know, still in the very early stages of it and, like I said, seth's the one who's kind of in charge of all the logistics around the podcast. This is his baby, and so I kind of, you know, hands off and let him do his thing and then we'll have our input in that. You know, it's it's been neat and I think, um, josh is doing a really good thing. I think he's going to help out a lot, of, a lot of athletes, a lot of um media personnel in the sport and uh, yeah, it's, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Jonathan's a man dude, really like him. Yeah, he's got. What he's doing is something special. I got to ask you this and I don't want this to be you can keep this as service level as possible. It just makes me think as an athlete in the sport and as a media person in the sport, the more I've grown my podcast and start to see like, okay, you start to understand brand budgets differently in a lot of ways. As you have your podcast and as it continues to grow and you see that there can be money attached to it, has it changed your perspective as an athlete at all? Like in the sense where you're like okay, after my athletic career, whenever, whenever I choose to change my, my path or whatever you want to do with it, there is an opportunity for you guys to continue with this podcast and you can really like have a career after running with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I don't think that was ever my like intention or thought process going into it. So I think kind of seeing that now has opened a lot of doors and uh brought in a new light. Um, and I, you know I'm 37, I'll be 38 next April, and so who knows how much longer my career is going to be. So I would be lying if I said it's not something I thought about frequently, like you know what comes next and um, the cool thing about trail running right now is it's exploding in so many different areas and outlets and ways, and so there is room to have a career in this sport, uh, by not just being a professional athlete.
Speaker 2:And, um, you know, I haven't been sponsored over the last like year and a half or two years too, and so seeing that, um, really, you know the sport is so much more than just running professional, I guess that's really interesting to me.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I think I started to see that before I even started the podcast.
Speaker 2:I guess I work with a lot of professional athletes too and I see the landscape, especially when they're talking about contract negotiations with companies. I've been in the sport in a few different circles uh, road running and track and short mountain running and that sort of thing, for so long that, like I have a lot of, I guess, like you know, insider information on, on, on what budgets and and, um, the money in our sport does look like. And so, uh, I've I've definitely like been thinking about this way longer than just just our podcast, but, uh, it is very eye-opening to see how quickly it's changing and how much more money is being brought into the sport. It's just uh. One thing that's going to be interesting is looking at how it's distributed over the the coming years. You know, is that going to go towards more media outlet stuff, or is it going to go to the athletes, um, or, you know, is there going to be something, a whole new wave of something we don't even know yet?
Speaker 1:it's going to happen in a year or two on that topic of of as far as sponsorship goes, I have been seeing you running a little bit in a sportiva kit. Is there a chance I have you as a teammate next year on?
Speaker 2:the sport. I tell you what that'd be a there's no talks or anything like that. You know, I I don't know. That'd be awesome. I probably need to get some results on the board here this year, but I'm digging all the new stuff, man, the Prudigio series, like, from the regular Prudigio to the Prudigio Pro to now the Prudigio Max, like those are my everyday shoes. That shoe's awesome. And plus, yeah, I, I just uh, I love everything the brand stands for which is really cool. Um, so it's hard not to like, yeah, ref the gear and, um, luckily, uh, I think Liam, uh one of your marketing managers over at law sport TV, has been kind enough to to see me a few pairs of shoes and and, uh, and some gear and stuff, and so, uh, it's the best out there and so, of course, I'm going to run it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, dude, I'm glad you're liking the stuff. The Max's are dope. Those just came out, I think. Like yesterday I've been digging those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do want to talk a little bit more into the agent conversation because you know so much. Do you still work with Kelly Newland? Maybe talk a little bit about that? Because you've been in the game for so long, you understand the way like business works. Can you maybe talk about what it's like to work with an agent and how that partnership works? And you know cause like dude. You could even be an agent in a lot of ways with all you know the background you have, and have you considered that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is something I have considered. I I love working with athletes um, you know all levels like coaching is is awesome, but I think one thing I would really really enjoy is either being like an athlete manager or an agent, where you get to support the athlete in other ways rather than just writing training plans and then you know talking to that, which I do enjoy that part of the process. But what I really enjoy is like motivating an athlete, getting them excited, taking care of them in ways that you know a coach normally can't, and so that's the benefit of working with an agent. I think Kelly's great and there's been a lot of. I've known Kelly forever.
Speaker 2:We have a, you know, a friendship that goes way, way, way back before she was even an agent, and you know, the nice thing about it is it takes a lot of the thinking away for me, like I can just go, put my head down and train and not have to worry about the conversations behind the scenes. Like those conversations are stressful I think. Like you know, being 37 years old and trying to get a sponsorship again is like kind of like that's a tough place to be in, unless everything's going, you know right, and I think, um, so having an agent is nice because I can just focus on training, uh, she can have those conversations and then, um, yeah, outside of that, uh, it's it. Yeah, I think it's been, it's been good at just having that extra support. You know, goes a long, long ways and, um, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what will come of it, but uh, right now, yeah, and just uh focusing on on myself and letting her do all the kind of the behind the scenes work, which is great.
Speaker 1:I love that. I like it Is the. I mean, you don't have to go too far in the nuts and bolts, but is it more so still have the conversation and then bring you in as far as like introductions go, Like how, how, when do you get brought into the process? Is what I'm trying to understand too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I think it depends on the brand, right and um, who you're talking to. Like I, from being in the sport for so long, I have a lot, of, a lot of my close relationships are with a lot of these, um, athlete managers and people who work for these brands and stuff, so they're no strangers to me and and, uh, to be honest, there are conversations I could have, um, right up front and not even need an agent, but the nice thing about it is, uh, you know, it's a stressful. It's tough. When these people are your friends and you do know them, it's a stressful conversation to have, being like, hey, I feel like I'm worth this much and would you love to bring me. You know, those are awkward conversations for an athlete to have, when, when all you want to do is run fast and focus on your podcast and you know all these other things that, um, you know should make brands want you, and so, um, it really depends on the brand.
Speaker 2:I think Kelly has a lot of connections with brands that aren't just the big shoe companies too, and anytime there's a brand that's interested, usually she will talk to the brand about what I want out of that relationship. So every brand is different in every company. What I would want out of that relationship is so every brand is different in every company. Like what I would want out of that relationship is going to change and be different. But she knows that by talking to me first and then has the conversation with the brand and if the brand aligns with that, then I kind of start to get brought into the conversation. You know, once numbers and things like that start getting thrown around.
Speaker 2:But it's been really important to me as I've gotten older to make sure that whoever I do work with is a brand that I really align with. I think, you know, for years maybe I wasn't thinking that way and I wish I would have at a younger age and I think I would have been a little bit better of a position now. But I just want to make sure you know whoever I am working with is somebody I really align with. And, um, and Kelly knows that and so, um, that's the big benefit of it and uh, yeah, I don't know, there's not really any timeline, I guess. Uh, to answer your original question on, like, when I get brought into the conversation, start talking to brands, and how that works is just very dependent on uh who's in the conversation and the timeline of the conversation, I guess.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting, very cool, very cool I know you started recently working with is the hyper light right For uh. As far as nutrition goes, can you talk a little bit about? I feel like they're like this really cool upstart brand, um on the nutrition side and they've signed a bunch of really you know like very a list athletes. I think there's a lot of cool conversations going there. They're a trendy brand, um. I have not personally tried the product I've been wanting to. I'm going to have to. I'll probably order some soon. But talk about them. Let me know what you think and then give me the pitch on them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. Well, first of all, you got to try the product. It's changed my uh, I mean I'm no stranger to like, uh, what. What's been a big struggle for me with ultras has been the fueling aspect of things, uh, especially races over like 50 miles, and, um, it's been game changer.
Speaker 2:Working with hyperlight. First of all, the uh two guys, jeremy and emory, who kind of run the show at hyperload light, have just, I mean, they're just world-class dudes, um, they're, but they're from texas and that's where I grew up and from originally, and so a lot in common there. Um, the the thing that stood out from the get-go with them was their willingness to one um, bring on athletes at the beginning when they probably, you know, didn't have the means to or the budget to, but they understood, um, the importance of having elite athletes on their roster. And then how they have treated us and everybody involved in the product. Like, if you buy Hyperlite you're getting a handwritten note from them. Like, you know, the attention to detail from them and that company is just incredible and that, when I talk about working with a company that I align with, that fits the mold perfectly, where it's more about the people rather than just pushing product out and then you form those relationships and you have a good product and you're going to be a successful business and it's so cool to see the growth happen so quick. I don't think it was expected to blow up as quick as it has and it's really neat to be part of that from the from the beginning. But the amount of support I received from them in all ways is just more than I could ask for and I think you know it's kind of like.
Speaker 2:It's a situation I think every professional runner hopes to be in with a company at some point and it feels like family. I mean, we have a team of eight athletes and we're all in a group. You know a group text chain and it's. It's just fun Like I feel like we're all you know if we're all in the same area, we get out for runs together or you know we joke around on the, on the messages and and that sort of thing and it's, it's just been a great, um, great team to work for and um, I highly recommend anybody who I mean if you, whether you're struggling with nutrition or not. It's a fantastic product just because of how, how clean it is with the a hundred grams of carbs, thousand milligrams sodium, one serving. You know you can have that and there's a lot of benefit to that, um, for shorter and longer races, but uh, yeah, really, um, good, tasty, tasty product too.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, I got to try it. You got me sold, all right, no, I and I appreciate you for being candid and talking about it Like I yeah, dude, I got to say, like they're marketing everything, they've really nailed it, like since they like really popped onto the scene in the last year. So it's been, it's been cool to follow along. Yeah, let's talk nutrition a little bit. I think this is a fun conversation, because so it's I'm going to. I'm going to track this back a little bit. I had a conversation with joe gray a while back. Joe's a good friend of mine and he gave you a joe to get a compliment from joe I always think of as like one of the coolest things ever and he gave he threw a compliment about you, I don't know.
Speaker 1:We were talking about monument and running, and you came up oh cool and he had said something along the lines of like yo, if matt would have stuck with like sub ultra and stuck with like the shorter stuff had like could have been like one of the best to ever do it, in a lot of sense like he threw a serious compliment your way just because of your talent level. Sub four minute miler, you've taken cracks before it's series and all you've ran series and all three times. You've run zagama once. Do you think there's a chance we get more like matt daniels with like the golden trail series in the future, even at 37 like? Is that possible, oh man?
Speaker 2:um, you know, possibly I, I don't know um, there's so much I want to do in this sport, I think, and so it's hard to like, uh, especially at this age, seeing what those kids are running kids guys guys, young whippersnappers running now, and women, I mean just incredible times, I think, uh, yeah, and, and how they're running, uh, these courses, it's just uh, the game has changed drastically even from when I was, you know, doing it on a more of a consistent basis. With that said, uh, I do like, I get the itch to like get out there and do one of those races and stuff. Uh, I think, you know, if I were to ever run for a brand like Solomon, I would definitely put one or two of the golden trail races, um, on my schedule for the year, just to like to do and see if I still have it. But, uh, and there's a few of them that I want to do, just because you know the um, you know kind of like the history around some of those races. That's why I love Zygoma, that's why I love Dears and all Um, I'd love to go do both of those healthy. Uh, there's, I've never gotten to do either one of those races like in a, you know, full, healthy and feeling good.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, maybe, uh, you know there's also still time when I'm a master's athlete to go after some of the master's records, that at those races. But we're still a few years away from that. So, um, but man that's really nice to hear about, about joe he's a legend, great guy and, like uh, to be honest with you, a huge influence on me, um, and getting into trail running and sticking with it and I think uh, had it wouldn't, had it not been for joe, um, I probably would have been on only one world team rather than three. Uh, a lot of convincing and um, and uh, yeah, good words from him like caused me to kind of stick with it and continue on and yeah, he's a good dude he really, he really likes you.
Speaker 1:Man, I was really like I I was. It was cool, like he's he's shared stories and stuff like that, and like it helped a lot actually, because I, you know, I don't know like for the episode and stuff like that for me to put things together. I was like, oh, that's, that's really cool. So, yeah, I um dude, all right, so that that gets the gears turned. And so maybe talk a little bit about like you've taken cracks at series and all you haven't had obviously had not finished, like anywhere near where your potential is. Do you like talk about some of like the what you were going through in these times, like injuries and things like that? Like I always like help paint the picture for what was happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, god, that race is so hard. Um, on paper it doesn't look like it should be as hard. And I've listened to some of your podcasts with uh like Bailey talking about it and some other athletes and, uh, they paint the picture really well for what that race is. And, um, it is brutal. Man, you start off with like a double VK and then it gets really fast for a while and you get to enjoy your leg speed and then you hit another climb and then you just bomb down a 3k descent and it's just like you kind of have to have every card to play with if you want to run well there and you have to be firing on all cylinders if you want to have a good day. And I've just never gotten to line up, uh, at that race like feeling good and fresh and ready to run like my best at that particular race.
Speaker 2:Um, I would say in 2017, I think it was the first time I did it Um, I went there literally and ran it literally six days after running the world champs in Italy, and so I was cooked like I. It was the end of the season. Um, I was like I. I ran the race in Italy, italy, the world champs with the flu and was really sick and then went over the stairs and all and like just had nothing. It was like we're getting through this sort of thing and experiencing it and we're going to come back another time and be good. And then in 2019 I got invited to go race it. After, um, I placed fourth at Western States and so it was my first hundred at States and I didn't know how the body was going to recover or anything like that. And then international flight and getting over there, I was just like in a daze and got my doors blown off right from the get go.
Speaker 2:And then last year, seth Ruling and I went out there together to go run it. Uh, and I just like wasn't I didn't specifically train for it, I was still kind of ultra training and, um, I just wanted to like have a go at it again, feeling fresh. Um, even though I wasn't like specifically trained for it. And, yeah, I got over there and, for whatever reason, seth and I both just felt so bad the whole trip.
Speaker 2:Um, we say it was jet lag, but who knows what else it was like just did not feel right. Like couldn't eat for like four or five days, um didn't sleep like, and so, of course, again, like this time, I tried going out like like I was fit and going to run really well, and then just blew up so bad and had a horrific time trying to finish that race and so, um, yeah, it was one of those, uh, it's one of those races where, like every time, I've lined up for it, it's just it hadn't um it hadn't panned out and you know that's okay, that's sometimes it goes that way and so, yeah, maybe one of these, one of these years I'll get out there and get to kind of give it my all absolutely man.
Speaker 1:It's tough dude. Americans don't like american. I should say american men like we've had a tough time at that race. Very rarely does an american male crack the top 10. If, like ever, it's been a while. We I mean american man hasn't won since 1982, so it's been a minute yeah, yeah, it's true, and it's a really hard race to uh.
Speaker 2:Pablo vigil, who's won that race five times, is he's my mentor and who got me into children to begin with. And uh, we talked about it a few times and you have to have a um, you have to be like very, almost like track and cross-country fit, but have the strength of an ultra runner to run really well there. Um, because the way that course is and uh, starting off with the double vk, it's like you better have like one of the best vo2 maxes on on the planet. You're going to even be remotely in the top 10 when you get to open up and actually use your legs, and I think it's hard for Americans to be in that kind of shape that time of year. The tough thing about coming from America to race in Europe is we race pretty much year-round here because there's always something going on and you have to almost treat tears and all like it's the, it's the Superbowl and that's that's your one race of the year If you want to do well there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So crazy? Uh, what about Zagama? You think you'll ever go back there?
Speaker 2:I would love to man. That course is so cool. I think it suits me a little bit better too. Um, when it's not really bad, I was having an awesome. This is what a lot of people know. I was having a really good race there. I was in, I think, like I led for a lot of it. I was in the top eight when it happened, but I took a really bad fall up there on the ridgeline and it just was enough to like spook me and, uh, very hesitant the rest of the race and didn't really want to like open up my stride or run hard on the downhills or anything like that, and I basically just like kind of jogged it in because I was just like that. I almost just like ended my life on a fall.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize there was that kind of exposure on that course.
Speaker 2:It's really not that bad. Where I fell and how I clipped the toe and rolled I was. I was pretty close to like I mean, luckily Gama does a really good job about having, uh, I guess, like mountain patrolling people up on the ridge there, um, but I it's just like if nobody was there, I would have been, like you know, close to falling off or whatever, but the fall to itself was really painful. I like bruised my hip pretty bad and, yeah, it was just not. I don't know, I had a lot of life stuff going on that at that same time. I probably, probably shouldn't have even been been out there, Um, but you know, it is what it is. I was trying to run well for Nike and wanted to, yeah, do what I was capable of and, yeah, so taking swings, man, taking swings.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this Do you now that Nike's in the past and you know obviously there's strong consideration about wanting to sign for another brand Do you feel pressure off you now or do you feel more pressure?
Speaker 2:Um, I would say it's like 50, 50 and it's not. I definitely feel less pressure than I used to, um, because I kind of just came to terms with I'm doing this regardless sort of thing. Uh, I love it so much that I don't need to be sponsored to continue doing it. Now it helps tremendously to be sponsored. I mean, just having support in this sport goes such a long ways and you're able to train like you need to train to perform at a top level and represent a brand and that sort of thing and then just having some travel paid for or getting some free pair of shoes or whatever, where you're not having to work as much, you know, makes such a big difference. And so I think the pressure to get sponsored again is definitely there, but it's in a much better light these days where it's kind of a bonus and it's something I definitely still work towards and want and it's what gets me excited to get up and get out and train.
Speaker 2:But for me, representing a company is more of it's not for myself anymore. It's more like I would enjoy a partnership where I get to like work with this company and be part of something bigger than just my own running, where maybe in the past it was more just about me and my results and that sort of thing. I think, as I've aged and I want to have a career in the sport you know, even outside of racing, I would love to work with a company that sees that and values me in other ways than just the results. I mean, I still want to run fast, but I think that there's a little bit of pressure to get to that point, more than just signing this massive contract because I'm the best in the world, which that'd be great. But at the same time you got to be a little bit realistic too.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure. Another guy in the Boulder area is Andy Wacker and he very recently, notably, departed Solomon. In a similar way I would say have you guys connected? Have you guys talked over that? Are you close with Andy in that way? I I just I think it's such a positive thing to show that, like you know, I think the normies get so caught up in like sponsorship, sponsorship, sponsorship, but like there's so much like 99.9% of good runners, like in the sport, like aren't even sponsored, like it's just you know it's not really you get it, but like you know what I'm saying Like have you and Andy, andy connected in how you both have put a lot forward for the community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, Andy's a homie. He's one of my really good friends and I lived with him for years.
Speaker 1:You too, everybody lives with Andy.
Speaker 2:Oh, everybody's lived with Andy, yeah, yeah, I was one of the OGs though. So, no, yeah, we have talked a little bit about it. Andy and I, you know, had as much conversation around sponsorship stuff as much as we used to when we were younger. Um, actually, more of our conversation has been about, like, some of the stuff we do in the in the trail running community and what we were doing outside of our own sponsorships and trying to get, you know, sponsorships for what we're doing and things like that. Um.
Speaker 2:But I think he's in a very similar position as me where, like, I think he would really appreciate, uh, the recognition and um support from from a brand. Uh, because, I mean, the guy's a baller like he's, he can literally do it all and if he wanted to do ultras he would probably be one of the best in that as well. Um, but I think what's frustrating with um both of us maybe is what and what maybe a lot of people don't see or aren't taking into account is like what we are doing in the community and trying to do with um, like, for instance, with what andy's doing with the trail team um, and like being able to run for a company and that company, like seeing what he's doing for the community is only going to help that brand and so not getting recognized for the stuff like he's doing outside of his own running on top of running and like and as an incredible athlete. It's tough to see Um and like. I get it.
Speaker 2:You know, brands want the fastest people and the people who are racing a lot and this and that, but that only that only lasts so long and there should be spots for those people and those people should get paid really well, like, according to Walters of the world should be getting paid millions of dollars for what they're doing and how much they're selling. But there is a component in this sport where there's a lot of really good athletes that are doing some really incredible things on top of their own running and I think that goes a really, really really long ways for selling shoes and representing a brand and I think you know, just with the conversations Andy and I have had, it's more around stuff like that than our own running and being like man, like remember the days when we were sponsored by Nike and Salomon and like you know it's like what happened?
Speaker 2:Why aren't we getting sponsored? It's like, no, I can't. We know, you know how, how the landscape of sponsorship works and that sort of thing, but it's uh, we also want to change that a little bit and and um, want brands to understand, like, where the soul of our sport comes from and and how they can benefit from sponsoring athletes who are heavily involved in that.
Speaker 1:It's like, dude, it's so much. I don't know if you're an NFL fan, but like you think about, like the veterans in the locker room. I don't know, I'm not really a giant NFL fan, I like college football. But anyway, long story short, you think about, like the saying of the veteran in the locker room, and I just think having on teams, like having a person that does so much for their community not only does it set the great example for the young guns coming up, but at the same time, just Just being able to mentor athletes and tell them and get and show them like, oh, this is, this is what you don't do, this is what you do do, and like just giving there's so much that you can provide as someone that's in their mid 30s, like you know, in that role, that's in that part of their career. I don't know. I think there's a lot of benefit there.
Speaker 1:It's funny I was just talking to one of your athletes, courtney Coppinger, to, I think one of your athletes, courtney coppinger, and we were. We were chatting about this like semi recently when brooks was putting together like their team, and she had said something along the lines where they one of the things that they, you know wanted her for was leadership as well, being able to be, you know, a good leader and, and you know, almost like a mentor in a lot of ways. Yeah, outside of she's, oh my god, had an insane season um yeah, but like I'm about to get.
Speaker 2:Oh my God had an insane season.
Speaker 1:We're about to get better. Oh my God dude. Yeah, she's a killer this year. It's crazy, but yeah, it's just one of those things that I think brands could benefit from so much, as opposed to. What drives me crazy is it's always the latest and greatest thing. You could take 16 shots at Black Canyon and win it once, but DNF 20 times. You can get yourself an ultra contract, and that's just me being random there. Or you could like be a Ryan Becker and be on the podium of everything not necessarily win everything, but be on the podium and everything and not get a contract. It's like this doesn't make any sense. It's very confusing. So, yeah, I don't know. Let's talk sport. Where do you see the future of the sport going? Like, from a professionalization perspective, like, do you think this is going to be an Olympic sport? Like, what? Like, what do you want to see and where do you see it going?
Speaker 2:Gosh, that's a great question. Um, a lot of. There's a lot of different scenarios. Uh, I'll answer the question of if I want it to be an Olympic sport first. Uh, I don't, I don't think I do. Uh, I don't think it would be a very good Olympic sport, to be honest with you. Uh, and then we get too mixed up on, um, focusing on one or two trail distances again, and because you can't treat it like track and field, where you know they're not going to have, like, if they're going to bring trail into the Olympics, they're not going to have, like, eight different races at eight different distances on eight different courses. That's just not going to happen. It's probably going to be one or two races and that's, that's going to be a trail in the Olympics and, um, I don't think that would be good for the sport.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I think it's going to continue to grow and, um, a lot of the lore of trail running and what has brought people into it is the fact that it's, and what has brought people into it is the fact that it's, um, it is diverse in a way that other sports aren't, in terms of, like, how each race is different, there's different distances, um, but yet everybody kind of has one common theme and that's they want to be part of this community and, um, go explore trails and be in the mountains and the woods and kind of get away. And I think, go explore trails and be in the mountains and the woods and kind of get away. And I think, you know, as long as, um, as long as UTMB is still doing what they're doing, uh, we're going to continue to see a shift in the sport where it gets a little bit more professionalized. Uh, utmb may not be, like you know, um, flipping the bill for any of these athletes, but brands are going to get more involved because of the exposure of UTMB and it's going to become a little bit more of a media frenzy than it already is, which is crazy to think about. But there's still going to be a huge opportunity for grassroots events and the soul of the sport, and I think you're going to see a lot of professional athletes want to go back and forth between those two types of races and stuff.
Speaker 2:So, um, while trail running will change and it will grow and it'll become more like iron man, it will also stay a lot of the same. I think too, um, people don't want it to, to fully change, and so there will be that whole um part of trail running that will, I think, hopefully stay the same as long as we continue to keep our public lands. And, um, you know, we're smart about how, how we're stewards of the land, and things like that. Uh, I think you know there's good and bad that's about to come with trail. There's going to be growing pains but, um, I think in the end it'll, you know, we'll still all get the same benefit from it that we've always gotten, and that's like getting to go explore in the mountains and be part of this really cool community. And, um, yeah, get the you know party in the woods I love that.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, man, I it's. I really stand on the same. I I'm I very much of the same view on you as you with the olympics section, not so much about the distances. The distances like make me a little frustrated because I saw what they did for for climbing and kind of what they did with schema too. You know, I just really like a lot of the schema, the hardcore schema. Athletes like we're kind of bumped about. You know what they did with schema, but it's a different conversation.
Speaker 1:I think the one thing for me is I want to see cause athletes don't have a long life cycle in this sport and not only that is there's not a ton of money in the sport to be made yet. So my thought is is like I want athletes to make as much money as possible so whatever they go on to do afterwards they can be successful at and they don't have to necessarily worry. And I think with the Olympics, just like every other sport in the Olympics or most sports um, outside of your NBA, nfl, whatever those media rights that all goes to the Olympics Athletes don't make money unless it's small amounts from sponsorship. So I think when it comes to the economics of it. I think the athletes would be much better served, probably from our own selling TV rights or media rights to something along the lines of a UTM not a UTM but some sort of world championship, to where athletes have profit sharing, something like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, not the Olympics. I just don't think that that's unless it attracts a lot of bigger name sponsors. But then there's a lot of consolidation because the best athletes will make the most money. But I think there needs to be where the sport grows to the point where it can be all the way down the line. So that way it's a little more fair. It's not just one or two or three athletes making, you know, driving Bugattis and shit like yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2:It's tough too because, you know, with the Olympics being every four years and everything's, you know there may be Olympic cycles where you don't even see the best athletes from the last three years because, uh, like you said, the life cycle in the sport is very short for a lot of, especially in the ultra distances, for a lot of top level athletes, and usually you only, I mean there's the exception, for sure, but sometimes these top level athletes only get a year or two of like being their best and they may completely miss out on the whole Olympic year and miss out on millions of dollars.
Speaker 2:If it gets to that point with trail running but still be in history one of the best ultra runners you know ever, and so, and that's sad to think about, and we're in track and field, it's a little bit different, you know. I mean there are those athletes, but yeah, it's a good, it's a good point and it'll be interesting to see what happens. I think we're still a long ways off from trail running being in the Olympics but, um, if it does happen, uh, we're going to see a huge, huge change in, um, the sponsorship landscape for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, it's interesting too. Like you know, liam Myra, I was talking to you recently and he made a really good point. He was like he's like all right, take your, take your best vertical run. Take Joe gray, for example. He's like all right, take your best vertical run, Take Joe Gray, for example. He goes all right, joe Gray is what? 41, 42 right now? So by the time it does become an Olympic sport, you're going to judge all the past greats against the fact that they never became an Olympian and then you'll obviously judge future grades on the fact, or greats by the fact that they were Olympians. So just because Joe Gray, matt Carpenter and some of the best to ever do it back in the day never became Olympians, is that judged against them and that's kind of a bummer. You can't really. It's completely out of their control.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting it is. It's a good conversation to have, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, it's such an interesting sport, especially because it's so small, and so it's so small but so big at the same time, given the fact that it is global, uh, but like in our little bubble, like it's just, it's a very niche thing, but it's it's. You know, there's money coming to it, so it's kind of crazy yeah, sorry, no, you go.
Speaker 2:I kind of look at it as kind of um, you know, people always make the like association with skateboarding, you know, in trail running or surfing, but like, yeah, like our X Games is UTMB right now and it's kind of interesting, like skateboarding is a very soul sport and you have those who just like do it, to do it and love to do it. And then you have those who compete in like the small, you know arena and some of the dirtbag events and we have that in trail running, get the big bucks and do the X games and who compete at the highest, you know, quote, unquote the highest level. And that's kind of where I feel like trail running is that on a smaller scale maybe, or maybe not, I don't really know right now with the numbers, but I feel like, yeah, that's like our UTMB and kind of how it's set up and it would just be so interesting throwing in an Olympic games on top of that, like what would happen to UTMB? What would happen to the other smaller races at the professional level?
Speaker 1:I think it would change a lot. And the other thing is too and this is just me riffing but if we throw in an out-of-season testing pool, how does that change the landscape? The entire sport especially and this is no shot at Europe but the European landscape of trail running changes then In my opinion and some may be American, but I would say mostly Europe. Um, yeah, things will change. Uh, if, if we throw in an out of season testing pool and yeah, you'll see a lot of athletes, it'll just change. That's the best way to probably put it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I wish, I wish it would like. I wish that would happen now and, uh, and I wish brands would. I wish there was a clause in every contract where a certain amount of you know what you make goes into that, like testing pool or something like that.
Speaker 2:But that's a whole nother you know, a can of worms to open and talk about and, um, but yeah it would. It would drastically change the landscape. I think, um, I think there's a lot, a lot more athletes riding that fine gray line, uh, or just on the other side of it, than than we think and assume. So that's just sad to say, but I think that's, that's the truth.
Speaker 1:No, you're a hundred percent right. Well, a hundred percent, uh, that's that's. You know, we could do a whole nother podcast, I should. I could bring Dan Kurtz in and we can have Dan. Kurtz he and I always chat about the anti-doping thing. It's kind of um, but yeah, so all right, moving on, let's um. So we've got run, rabbit run. That's only a few weeks out. Uh, have you, are you? I would imagine you're probably starting your taper now for it, or?
Speaker 2:um, kind of I'm on like a deloading week right now and then I'll have, um, probably another decent week. Uh, my weekends are loaded up with some long runs, but like throughout the week, I'm just pretty pretty chill now. So, yeah, I'll start to kind of taper down. Uh, cause what, we're four weeks away from this Friday. So, yeah, we'll start to taper down, probably two or three weeks out, sweet man.
Speaker 1:You gotta be excited. What, um, what do you think is going to be next after, like, what do you got planned for the back half of your season?
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, to be determined. I'm signed up for JFK, don't? A lot's going to depend on how I recover and, um, yeah, how I feel like if I can get my like turnover and uh speed back like in time like run rabbits, a slow race, uh, and so I'm having to train at like much slower speeds and I'm at higher elevation, so I'm losing a lot of that like natural ability that I have to go fast, especially for a race like JFK. But if I can come back in time and feel good for that, I'll. I'll do JFK, um, and then, uh, the big plan is black Canyon.
Speaker 2:In February I like I went out to Western to pace Seth and I thought I was done with that race man and I, I just I can't get enough of it. I got to get back on the starting line. So I'm going to give it a go and try and like do something special. Black Canyon, uh, it's, it's. I also said I would never go back and do black Canyon again because, like that was the one race I knocked out of the park, you know, at the beginning of my career, and it's hard to go back and do that.
Speaker 2:But, um, I am feeling like I'm at a place in my career and, um, feeling good mentally about it, like where I could go back and I can have it just as good of a day if training goes well. So that's a big plan, yeah, um, but that's about it. Uh, just kind of focused right now on on these next four weeks and trying to make 20k and and then go from there nice man, nice, no, I love it, I love it all.
Speaker 1:Right, dude, it's crazy black canyon, like I mean. You already knocked it out of the park once, so you know how hard could it possibly be to go go do it again but no, it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, dude, your time holds up like it was like freaking fast as shit. So, yeah, it's, um, it would be cool to go back and that's such a cool course too, like such a hard, like downhill. It's such a runner's obviously a runner's so runnable, but, um, it's as runnable as it gets. Um, yeah, all right, one more thing I got for you before I let you go. I gotta ask you more, like like a coaching question, on your training. Are you for racing, run rabbit, just because I don't have a lot of ultra runners on here, is it more? Are you paid more attention for the training, for time mileage, or are you more vertical for a race like this? Like what? What do you? What stats are you specifically like measuring things by for this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Um time for sure. I miles have been kind of thrown out the window in this training block, um, and I've been going off the time and um trying to get like for most of my runs, uh, vert per mile that the race is. Um, so I think for run rabbit it's something like 160, 175 feet a mile. It's not. It's actually not that bad, um, not like trying to train for utmb, but um, yeah, just getting on terrain, that's uh equivalent to that and kind of like locking in it whatever course record pace is um, and getting really comfortable with that for a really long time.
Speaker 2:And for me, ultra training, more than anything I'm focused on fueling and just like getting that dialed in and getting the gut used to consuming the amount of carbs and calories that I need and then getting in the amount of sodium and fluids I need as well. And that's been the biggest game changer is just getting that more dialed in and knowing that, like you know, this race isn't built for Ferraris, it's built for a Jeep and I need to, like you know, be in Jeep mode and it's tough for a guy like me who loves to like go zip around on fast trails and send it, and so I need to be a little bit more patient and get the mind right and just uh, kind of like walk into um and then I'm smiles. I guess is basically what it, what it comes out through, so yeah, Are you going Pacers or no Pacers for this?
Speaker 2:Uh, so no Pacers that run around, but they don't allow they don't allow Pacers, yeah, not for, not for um the hairs division. So yeah, oh man, yeah, and it's interesting, cause the race starts at 1 PM, so you're just running through the night. So it'll be another um race, very similar to UTMB. So trying to like get the mind ready for that and just like going to be out there in the woods by myself for hours, I I kind of like the the no pacer thing, like with the it's so Euro, you know like where?
Speaker 1:no, and you're through the night, which is also very Euro, so that's, I didn't even realize that. That's actually really cool. I like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a cool race. It's a yeah. Set up a little bit differently than most of the other other ones's opportunity to make more than just the 20 K. For the wind too, there's a, of course, record bonuses and then team bonuses, so like if you're paired with with somebody, uh, and you have the fastest overall time, you know, there's bonus for that. So yeah, a lot of a lot of opportunity to make a little bit extra cash which would be great right now.
Speaker 1:So hell yeah, dude, hell yeah. Well, listen, matt, I gotta say thank you. So I'm such a fan dude. I thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a great conversation. I appreciate you being open and like talking about the sport and, you know, just being candid about everything. So I hope this is not our last conversation. Hopefully many more. Um yeah, next time you run series when you run series at all we're going to do a pre-race. Well, maybe a few years away, but yeah, that sounds good, we'll figure out something in the meantime.
Speaker 2:Well, dude, thank you so much. I appreciate your time well. Thanks so much for having me on, james. Yeah, you too. Good talking, all right what'd you guys think?
Speaker 1:oh man, what a great episode. I want to thank matt so much for coming on the podcast. It was an absolute blast and you know, I really appreciate him being so candid and just talking about, you know, his life in the sport, which is so. The guy's been around for a while and has done so much and accomplished so much. So, yeah, I hate to say it, I fanboyed big time, um, and, yeah, just a big fan of Matt.
Speaker 1:And you know, guys, uh, before you get going, you can best support Matt in a few different ways. You can find him, first and foremost, give him a follow on Instagram. If you don't already, you could find him at Matt Daniels for 80. Uh, it's going to be linked in the show notes as well. Give him a follow. Send him a DM. Let him know what you guys thought about the episode. Another way you could support him is listening to his show, the Boulder boys show. Um, it's a great podcast, highly worth a listen. It's great stuff there, lots of nuggets of wisdom and, um, lots of cool contributors uh, seth and Matt and uh, adam and the crew. So all good stuff there, um. And another way you could support him If you are interested in coaching. You can find a Matt as well on Instagram and send him a DM. Um, if you're interested or looking for a coach, and uh, yeah, just let them know. And you can also read his step sub stack. I'll link that in the show notes as well. Um, he's got some good writing in there. So, again, want to thank Matt so much for coming on the podcast. Guys, very last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, you can best support us by leaving a five-star rating and review on Apple, spotify, youtube or wherever you consume your podcast. If you really enjoyed it, how about you give us a? Give us a review? Yeah, let me know what you liked or disliked or whatever you think about this crazy show. So, um, yeah, give us a rating and review. That'd be dope, um, and yeah, and last but not least, you can also support us by buying.
Speaker 1:Ultimate direction. Check out UD. Uh, 25% off using code steep stuff pod. Get you 25% off your cart, get yourself a belt, get yourself a vest, hook it up. Um, all good stuff there. So, guys, I really appreciate it. Have a great rest of your week and thanks so much for listening. People. What's going on? It is summer guys, super exciting adventures in the mountains, summer races Um, you know, it's about that time to start thinking about your gear. You know, I, uh, I want to say our brand partner, ultimate directions, got you guys covered. Pop on over to ultimate directioncom Check out a whole quiver of a quiver and, uh, new vests and belts that have just dropped um.
Speaker 1:Pop on over to check out the new race and ultra vests race vest in a six liter, the ultra vest and a 12 and beautiful new aesthetic colorways Um, definitely dynamic and stretchy. Cool new materials, um, and definitely something that can, uh, definitely buff out your, uh, your kit for 2025. On top of that, we did just drop a brand new pole quiver that's compatible for all of these vests. Um, definitely something you're going to want to add. And if you're not a vest person, pop on over to the belt section. You can check out the utility belt and the comfort belt. The utility belt is a little bit more of an ultra belt more storage capacity, a little bit thicker, um, and ability to hold poles. The comfort belt's a little bit smaller Think sub ultra or workout maybe oriented belt that's going to hold your gels and your phone Um, still super durable, but just a little bit tinier, for those, uh, smaller adventures or maybe shorter races, like a Cirque series race or something like that in the mountains.
Speaker 1:So pop on over to ultimate directioncom. They have you covered for all your hydration solutions. Use code steep stuff, pod for 25% off. Again, that's steep stuff, pod one word for 25% off. Ultimate directions got you covered and if you have any questions, shoot me a DM, let me know. I'd be happy to answer any product related questions for you guys. So, thanks so much. Check out Ultimate Direction, thank you.
