The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Sub-Ultra Mountain Running
The Steep Stuff Podcast
#118 - Addison Smith
What happens when an elite trail runner must quickly transition from racing a grueling mountain ultramarathon to coaching other athletes through their own epic challenges? Addison Smith lives this reality, and in our captivating conversation, he reveals the fascinating duality of his role at the UTMB festival in Chamonix.
Fresh off his performance at the OCC race, Addison shares the mental gymnastics required to shift from competitor to coach within hours. "When you're really tired, in terms of making mistakes for my athletes, it's like I need to be on when it's time to be on," he explains, offering a rare glimpse into the behind-the-scenes reality of professional coaching at one of trail running's most prestigious events.
As a coach for Carmichael Training Systems with a master's degree in movement science, Addison brings exceptional depth to our discussion about the science of ultrarunning. We dive into precision hydration testing, exploring how sodium concentration in sweat impacts performance and how athletes can determine their unique needs. His practical approach blends scientific knowledge with real-world racing experience, making complex concepts accessible and immediately applicable.
The conversation takes fascinating turns as we discuss the evolution of training methodologies, the value of various metrics from heart rate to perceived exertion, and the future of trail running as a potential Olympic sport. Addison's balanced perspective—embracing the competitive aspects while honoring the community values that make trail running special—offers wisdom for both elite competitors and weekend warriors.
Whether you're struggling with race-day cramping, curious about coaching approaches at the highest level, or interested in how the sport might evolve, this episode delivers actionable insights and thought-provoking perspectives from someone who truly lives at the intersection of competitive racing and professional coaching.
Follow Addison on IG - @addison_smith16
Reach out to Addison for Coaching - @CTS
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
What is up everybody? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lariello, and I'm so excited to bring you guys an episode today with none other than Addison Smith. Super excited to catch up with Addison. Addison is a coach for CTS that's right Carmichael Training Systems in Colorado Springs.
Speaker 1:Just getting back from OCC and the UTMB weekend, I caught up with Addison to talk all things coaching as well as racing as well. Addison's got a crazy racing resume to his own right, so I was super excited to catch up with him and talk all about what he's been up to over the last few years. As far as we're on the racing scene as well as in the coaching scene, it's a really informative episode. We talk a lot about a lot of different types of systems, a lot of coaching, just coaching situations, what it's like coaching over at some of the biggest races in the world and kind of how he balances both racing and coaching at the highest level of the sport. So, without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one. I really enjoy speaking with Al Addison. He's just so informative and just so knowledgeable, so it's a lot of good stuff. I think you guys will take a lot away from this one. So without further ado, addison Smith, it's time. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. Addison Smith, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
Speaker 2:buddy, I'm good man. Thanks for having me Excited to talk and hang out for a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, me too, me too, you know it's funny, man, like I can remember running the like idea of an idea, of a concept of an idea, like past you on a run like two or three years ago about this podcast, and you're like, yeah, that sounds pretty cool, like that would be dope. And then you know, here we are a few years later and then we're rolling. So it's kind of a full circle moment, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 2:No, it's. It's pretty awesome that you've been grinding at this thing for so long, got some awesome guests and it's really taken off. So kudos to you for sticking it out, cause I know there's a lot of podcasters that like get excited about it and it's like, ooh, this is so fun. And then, like you get to episode 30, you're running out of guests and it's like I don't know if it's worth it anymore but you for getting it done.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate it. It's definitely a grind, but yeah, dude, happy to have you on man. So maybe for the audience, introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your background, just a tiny bit about what you do with CTS, and then some things that you do as a runner as well, and then we'll kind of break it down from there.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure. So Addison Smith, born in the Midwest, my family they're international teachers and so I bopped around to different countries growing up, graduated from a school in Korea and went to college with the expectation of running. So I did cross country and track at Calvin University. It's a small school in Grand Rapids, michigan, coached by Brian Deamer, and I was definitely sold on the idea of, you know, a small D3 school where it's like, running is our passion. But certainly, you know I really paid mind to the academic path that I was on.
Speaker 2:You know I wanted to be a coach from, you know, my high school days and just you know how many awesome coaches have poured into me and my friends over the years. And certainly you know, with studying kinesiology, it was always a plan to do that in some capacity. And you know, with leaning into running over time, there was certainly a lot of opportunities to learn from my great coaches. And you know, participate in opportunities of like team sport where you're doing something bigger than yourself and it's like, oh, this is what you know team sports and team building and kind of an awesome competitive community can do for someone, and so I definitely wanted to emulate that and at CTS we have an awesome team of coaches and so it feels that way. You know behind the scenes when we're kind of bouncing ideas off of each other, and then certainly you know with the athletes I work with the camaraderie that I get to have with each and every one of them in kind of that one-on-one coaching space, is pretty sweet. So cool, so cool.
Speaker 1:Really quick. I do want to plug Michigan a little bit. You're a U of M alum. I'm a gigantic Michigan fan. Oh yeah, I have a lot of family that went to Michigan.
Speaker 2:Maybe talk a little bit about your time at the University of.
Speaker 1:Michigan getting your master's degree For sure, yeah, so yeah, go blue for sure. We have a big game.
Speaker 2:I don't know when you're going to post this. Hopefully it's after or right before a win against Oklahoma. Yeah, it'll be close. I'm a little worried, but you know we had a good showing for the first week.
Speaker 2:But anyways, uh, master's degree, I got in um movement science, in the kinesiology department. There, um, for me it was a natural progression of you know, I learned a lot, but there was certainly a lot more that I felt like I wanted to uncover in terms of, you know, learning about the specifics of breaking down the biomechanics of different gait patterns, whether running or walking. You know, talking about how you know to read MRIs and talking about specifically, you know how the body adapts to altitude or heat stress, and you know the different pathways of you know running, different intensities and how you go about fueling for those things and the metabolic processes that happen. You know when you're doing different endurance events. And so that was really formative for me.
Speaker 2:And from there I was, you know, an intern at CTS, um, bouncing back and forth to finish my master's and coming out here for a summer and then going back to finish it. And then, you know, I was brought on full time at CTS and so I've been in Colorado Springs now for almost four years. It feels like it's only been like a couple months. Just time flies. Like you're, you're at all these races, you're doing all these things and you like look back and it's like, oh my gosh, like I've been doing this for a little bit now and it's been awesome so yeah, and it's so cool, man, Like.
Speaker 1:one of the things I find so neat is like I.
Speaker 1:I met you probably within a year, year and a half of like when you first started and like you were still still learning, still doing your thing, and then just to see like how much your career has really progressed, like I was just when I was doing research on this episode, like doing some you know research on you, the background stuff, just the amount of like, uh, just reviews that you have from coaching and stuff like that was like holy shit. Like you've really built like quite a book of business, which is it's just amazing to see.
Speaker 2:So oh, I appreciate it. I mean, I think what's exciting about all the CTS coaches is like I came in obviously really green in the coaching space. Had you know the the, the background in the science, but certainly not the experience of like actually working one-on-one with people outside of kind of just um, general strength training and fitness at you know a gym for an internship and things like that, and so to have people that have been coaches for 10, 15, 20, 30 years and they're like you know you'll get it when you kind of feel like you're kind of stumbling around with your first few athletes and and kind of picking their brains, I think that's one of the biggest bonuses for me and my other coaches. It's like you can really lean on that expertise that other people have. And certainly I still have this where you know I get a Tour de Jeanne athlete, for example.
Speaker 2:And of course I have experience working with other athletes who have done really long distance projects, whether 100 miles or longer. But you know a unique race where I can just go hey Coop, hey Fitz. You know you guys have raced this. You've had athletes do this like what are kind of the specific things to think about at this aid station or when you're going through this coal, for example, and it really goes a long way as far as me feeling as prepared as I can be. Cause ultimately, like that's, my goal for my athletes is to set them up for success as much as possible, so cool.
Speaker 1:What is it like? Cause like Coop is like probably I don't know top three most famous coaches on the planet right now and coaches like some of the best athletes to have ever done it in our sport. What is it like having him as a resource Like that's gotta be pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Oh it's, it's so nice and it's not only just like so. We have continuing ed calls every week and you know I can I can pick his brain whenever. But it's like going out to these races and having the opportunity to interact with him. You know, at an aid station, you know when his athlete might be going through a tough spot and just knowing how he responds and reacts to it. Or someone has some sort of blister, foot issue and him. Or Adam Ferdinandson is kind of like a resident foot guy.
Speaker 2:He really put a lot of time into kind of working at aid stations and taking care of footwear and talking to Tanya, who's a big kind of Western States foot care veteran and, um, kind of picking their brains on that front as well as just kind of understanding you know, when I, when I can get them out on a run or we we spent a lot of time together at UTMB with the rest of the coaches and just kind of hearing his process.
Speaker 2:For you know where was he 20 years ago when he got started and what were the things that he was doing to kind of elevate himself and learn more about the space.
Speaker 2:And you know, think about how to be an ultra running coach, when ultra running coaching wasn't really a thing yet.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, super awesome in that regard, and it also kind of just opens my eyes to, you know, coaching and crewing professional athletes, because you know, when they come to Javelina or Western States, like we're all out there and supporting these people, and so being able to work with Jeff McGavro or being able to, you know, talk to Abby Hall at one of these races and picking their brains or, um, you know, one of them coming out and doing one of these LTVO2 tests that we have at our office, like all these things is just more information and I feel like kind of catching me up and getting me ahead in terms of, like, my growth and development, cause, you know, at the end of the day, we all want to be at the top of the sport or at the top of our game and whatever field of choice that we have, and so, um, being able to have those touch points with people that are farther along in the journey, really I feel like goes a long way for for me and the younger coaches.
Speaker 1:So, cool man. I couldn't imagine. I mean, honestly, I think that's the best thing. No matter what you're doing in this life, whatever you choose as a profession, it's so important to have a mentor and have people mentoring you as you go along the way, and that's a great person to have, and not just him, the other coaches as well. But I just feel like you're really set up for success to be able to do what you do.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. That's the goal. That's the goal.
Speaker 1:What? Uh, so talk to. Let's talk UTMB dude. So you both, you raced OCC, you just got back Um and you obviously were there in a coaching perspective as well. Maybe talk about your experience in general, we'll talk. We could break it up, we can talk about the race as well and then we'll talk about what it was like coaching athletes over there, um, and how that went.
Speaker 2:Totally so. This was my third time going out to the UTMB circus. It really does feel like a circus. I feel like that's the best way to describe it in the best ways, because you have thousands and thousands of different people coming out to cheer, coming out to crew, coming out to race, and so a little mountain town has turned into this trail running heaven of all of the different brands, all of the different pros, all of the different pros, all of the different, you know, athletes and coaches that you'd ever want to see and um, kind of get to meet and and and kind of just experience this kind of journey in this big race event together. It's all happening, you know, for a whole week, which I think is really unique and awesome. And so for me, um, I got into OCC. Um, through the lottery that was certainly not the plan for this year Um, I, my goal was to race comrades.
Speaker 2:I signed up for that in November and so for the audience who's not familiar, comrades is a 56 mile race in South Africa. It's a road ultra that has about 23,000 people at it, and so for me it was, you know, a big goal, has about 23,000 people at it, and so for me it was a big goal. Just having spent time in South Africa growing up, having kind of been a fan of ultra running before I got into ultra running, it's like that was a big bucket list event for me, like that was what I was going for this year. And then I got into OCC and I was like, well, I'm not gonna turn that down. I have these two opportunities, but like very different ends of the spectrum in terms of the type of training that you would do. To be successful, one requires spending a lot of time in the mountains getting a bunch of vert, and the other one is like you got to spend some time on the roads, you got to pound your quads a little bit and get them used to kind of being in a similar biomechanical pattern for a long portion of the race, with a lot of road downhill which like beats you up, which it beat me up a little bit. But, um, awesome experience. Um, if anyone's ever thinking about comrades or going out to South Africa, I couldn't recommend it enough. It was such a cool experience. Um.
Speaker 2:But in terms of kind of the process for getting to OCC, it was certainly tough to transition after you know, june doing, doing comrades, coming back crew in Western States and then going to see my family in Michigan. And then it was like, well, we got a month, we're going to do what we can here, like I've done mountain ultras before. Um, you know I have this time. I had a little bit of more downtime in terms of like time spent crewing, time spent doing other kinds of things that I do at CTS, and so, um, it was a month of. It didn't feel like cramming but in a sense, like I'm getting as specific as I can with this time that I have. And so got out there I was feeling pretty fit and, you know things didn't go quite to plan. I was hoping to be in you know the top 50 and run around six hours, but even like I would say, no one felt like it went to plan for them because I don't know if you heard there was a route change the day before. Um, you know different aid stations and so, in terms of like planning beforehand, it kind of got thrown out the window and it was just like we're going to race, I'm going to see what happens, um, and so I had a lot of fun for me.
Speaker 2:I get a lot of joy out of just competing and kind of being in the mix, and so I love races like Sonoma or Speed Goat or these races where the density of competition, it feels like there's always someone in front of you, always someone behind you, and so you're just always engaged in that. And I know some people get a lot of joy out of just being in the mountains and not worrying about the competition aspect. That's just not me. I love mixing it up and I love trying to chase people down, but just not me. Like, I love mixing it up, um, and I love trying to chase people down, but in terms of the race itself, um definitely hit a low point. Um at Triant. I should have filled up at Martini I don't know my American pronunciation isn't great, but, um, I should have filled up there.
Speaker 2:They said there wasn't going to be water opportunities there and I thought, you know, I I get up the climb a little bit quicker, but it was a lot more humid and it wasn't hot, but it certainly wasn't as cold and rainy as expected, and so I got a little dry um at Treant, and so then that next climb was a grind. It was like just reset. You know, try to get your stomach around, try to get rehydrated. And then I was able to rally a little bit, which I was really proud about.
Speaker 2:Going into Latour, I saw my coach, saw some of my colleagues and it was like this isn't going as well as I want, but we're going to rally, we're going to make the most of this thing and I was able to decent amount of time. But I'm trying to expose myself to a bunch of different races, not only you know personally to, to compete in a bunch of different styles of ultras, but also, um, for the sake of being a coach and not to say that, like I want to use my experiences at a race to dictate how I'm going to coach someone else for that race, but certainly knowing a course and also, um, being an example of, you know, practicing what I preach. As far as, like, when things are going south, what are we going to do to pick up the pieces and rally. I felt like I was able to do that and so it was an awesome experience, awesome event. And then it was time to do a lot of coaching and crewing after that.
Speaker 1:So crazy, so crazy. I got a couple. I have a few questions for you, totally.
Speaker 2:First one is is you? You were top, where were you like?
Speaker 1:12th or 14th at canyons. I got people, I got to remind the audience you're a stud runner as well. You're not just a good coach, You're also a fantastic runner. Do you will you cause? I know it's like in the majors, it's top 10 usually gets an auto bid, but sometimes, based off the UTMB and the UTMB indexes, they'll extend a few more down to give people auto bids. And do you get an auto bid in for next year for OCC?
Speaker 2:So I haven't heard that I do and I think, because this year Kodiak is the major it used to be canyons that you know, if I were to get 14th, maybe at Kodiak, given that it's probably going to be a competitive field that you know, maybe they would extend an invitation, but I I got in solely through the lottery, with only running speed goat, which, to be fair, not not that this is like a shade throwing podcast or anything.
Speaker 1:Great result at speed. Go to thanks, dude.
Speaker 2:No, I was pumped with that. That was my best high altitude mountain race that I've done, and so I was really happy to put that together. But in terms of the lottery, I was like I got one stone in and I got in. I was like it has to be my index, like there's just no way. But maybe I was just selected they don't tell you what the criteria is and so maybe it was just like I got super lucky. Or maybe they lean a little bit more into like if you have a higher index, they let you in.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'd love to know. Yours is like almost 800. It's pretty damn high. So yeah, dude, that's so interesting. Okay. One that's so interesting, okay. And one more question on the course itself and just running, how much did it mentally throw you off going from whatever what a 54 K was supposed to be, and then they changed it to like a 61 K, did they? How much different was that course from the original course? Did they take, like, extend some climbs, like what did they do for that to make?
Speaker 2:it. Yeah, so, um, the first thing that they did is so, after you got through Champé Loc, you go downhill for maybe about a mile and then you go immediately back up and over to Triant. Versus for the changed course we went down to Martini, so it was maybe an extra 2000 feet of descent down into the town before you had a bigger climb up to kind of the point before you descend down in Triant. Climb up to kind of the point before you descend down into Riant, if that, if that's making sense. I forget the name of the coal there, but you still go to four claw, which is the spot where you see a lot of cheering. That then goes down into Trion.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'm trying to remember the name of the coal as well, uh, but yeah, no, you got it.
Speaker 2:Um but in terms of kind of my thoughts about the race, honestly I was like a little less, a little more, you know, distance. I'm like, okay, cool, that's in my wheelhouse, I'm down for it. For me, what was most challenging was, you know, not knowing whether we were going to get torrential downpour, rain and snow, versus, you know, it being a little bit more humid. And so, in terms of my gear choice, I started with a jacket probably shouldn't have, but really, at the end of the day, um, I relished the opportunity to be like have a wrench thrown into things, because it's like, well, we're all going to figure this out, like, and I feel like I'm coming in as someone who makes smart choices and races, but maybe isn't, as you know, race ready for a mountain race.
Speaker 2:So it's like the more wrenches thrown in, you know, the more some crazy things will happen and maybe I'm moving through the field. Well, so I was all for, you know the the change. But certainly I could see other people where they spent weeks and weeks out there preparing and they're like what the heck? Then I should have trained in this other climb. But you know, that's, it's how it is and it was. There was wrenches thrown into utmb as well with all the rain and um sleet and snow, but yeah all right, so you come off the race.
Speaker 1:You finish your race up. Race was Race was what it was. A Wednesday or Thursday? Thursday it's Thursday, okay. So then you got to put your coaching hat on. I do. You got to be so tired afterwards. What is that like transitioning from okay, my race is over Now I got to put my coaching hat on and I got to assist and help other folks's race. What is that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, what's really nice is is I got there on Monday and so I was able to get a couple of pre-race meetings done out of the way before my race, and it was a nice way to just get out of the house and and not feel like I was just like trying to get as much sleep and rest and pent up in in in our Airbnb and I was able to walk around, meet athletes then and get some touch points.
Speaker 2:But yeah, things, things turned around and I had to rebound pretty quickly and I was a little worried where my head was going to be at, just because you know when you're really tired in terms of making mistakes for my athletes, it's like I need to be on when it's time to be on. But the nice thing is, with CCC starting at 9 and then the first opportunity to crew is at Champé Loc. Like the leaders aren't getting there until 2.30, 3 pm and my athlete was getting there around five ish and so I could sleep in a little bit, I could rally a little bit and then come in, you know, caffeinated and ready to roll um later in the day versus. You know, if I had to go to the start line, that probably would have been rough that next day.
Speaker 1:Do you now? Can you talk about like what you were? What is your role like, like on race day as a coach? Are you doing everything from not just pep talk but being able to talk about the race, being able to have their bottles and nutrition for them? What is it like for? What are you doing specifically?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it really depends on the race. And for UTMB you're only allowed one crew member at every aid station. And so the past few years when I've had athletes there because I had multiple athletes I didn't want to leave someone high and dry if I said I was going to crew them. And so typically I have, you know, someone else crew them and I'm just there for emotional support and I can help that crew member. You know, when I see them before they're ready to crew, and then when the athlete comes in, I can be behind the aid station and then relay information of like, you know he needs this. You know, get out the foot care kit, he needs an extra bottle or he's cramping, let's get some salt pills out. That's the kind of, you know, help that I'm typically providing at UTMB.
Speaker 2:But, um, for this one athlete, um, she's a pretty good a hundred K runner but she's fairly new into the sport and so she didn't have a lot of great crew options. She lives in Costa Rica, doesn't have like a big trail running community immediately around her, and so I wanted to really walk her through everything. And because she was my only CCC athlete, I committed early on in the year that, like I'm going to crew you, we're going to figure this out together and I think that really one helped her, you know, calm her nerves a little bit and know that like going to CCC and getting this done was possible, and two, I think, just the opportunity for someone who's relatively new to this. I wanted to make sure that everything was dialed and if there was something that went awry that we can really fix things.
Speaker 2:But my athlete was a stud. She, you know, had some cramps in the middle but we kind of got her hydration figured out at Champé Loc and she rallied really well and I was super proud of the way that she performed and kind of her first big 100K stage. She qualified at Puerto Vallarta but if anyone knows about that course, it is very kind of rolling and not technical and you know the climbing, the vert per mile is probably like 115 feet per mile different, um less so at that race. And so this was a big step up and and she learned a lot and performed really well. That's so cool.
Speaker 1:Did you, did you have any athletes on um on in UTMB proper? Like, did you get I did?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he got the full experience of the crazy weather and the route change and all that. Um, I, I just I heard it was wild weather out there. Um, because, though there's a lot of people that you know you have to race one of these hundred mile races to get in, the drop rate Wasn't as high as I thought it would be and you know a lot of people, even though they looked really rough in Cormier when I was kind of hanging out the aid station waiting for my guy, you know a lot of people rallied really well and I think it's just a testament to you know the type of people that go to this race. You know it's not a, it's not a bunch of rookies Like you got to qualify, you got to put your time in to get those stones and and certainly they, they were ready to weather that nasty weather.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, I mean, what a race in general Like? I gotta be honest with you, yeah I yeah, I know this is a short, short trial podcast, but damn, dude, like I was, I can't say I was not like really impressed and like blown away watching like ben demon and oh yeah, tom, and those guys at the front what time did you go into core my air like did. Were you there like much later or like did you get to go see some of the front of the race? Like what did you?
Speaker 2:yeah. So unfortunately this year I couldn't follow the elites as much, just because my athlete was coming through to the finish and I wanted to see her finish around like midnight to 2am and so she finished around like 130. And so it was at that point it was like okay, time to take a nap, time to take care of myself before I go and help out this other athletes crew, and so I got to corn my air later in the day. It was more of kind of the middle of the pack to the cutoff, because actually the situation for my athlete is, um, he forgot some of his nutrition. Like he was talking to his, his, uh, his significant other and he was in a daze and she was like you need two bags of nutrition. He's like, no, I only need one.
Speaker 2:And then he went through the night and took him longer, and so we actually rushed him through the Cormier aid station where, like he only spent 90 minutes in and out because he had to chase the cutoff there. Um, and so that was. That was quite hectic but pretty awesome too in terms of like the crew's ability to rise to the occasion and kind of get them everything you need and send them out, um, but yeah, at Cormier thankfully by the time I got there it wasn't as nasty weather at that point, but they had been through it. They were all wet and all of their extra cold gear and yeah, um it was. It was a little, it was a little bit of a war zone, but a lot of people were rallying and and making it just pass that cutoff, which was really cool to see.
Speaker 1:So cool man. I you know what I can't think of like we don't get a lot outside of, like maybe the rut last year where there was like significant weather, like it was very snowy and stuff. We was like significant weather, like it was very snowy and stuff. We don't get in the summer a lot of like really out there types of races where that'll be like big and televised and like put on. But this one was really special like I like I said, ben demon came in core my area. He was like yo it was, it was like the himalaya, like it was wild.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that was uh it was kind of cool to follow that and see, uh, yeah, the athletes kind of going through it and trying to figure out, just because I don't know a lot of these people. Everybody goes through training blocks, right, and it's in. The most of the people are in summer. You don't really get to face that weather outside of you know crazy rainstorms and maybe some, uh, some hail here and there, but like deal deal with snow conditions like you got to put your winter hat on that's, that's fun.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. And I think you know, as coaches, my goal is to not only get them fit enough to kind of race to their goals and kind of prepare them for pacing well and their nutrition, but really it's like getting them to know what they're going to do when shit hits the fan, whether it's like they drop a bunch of their nutrition. What are you going to do? Are you going to be able to handle the stuff that they have at the aid stations, like, have you practiced with solid food? Or say they're, they're dehydrated and you know they're. They're getting different. You know feelings of maybe onset hyponatremia, they're starting to get all puffy, like what are you going to do in that situation? Or have you practiced with your cold gear?
Speaker 2:And so it was really rewarding to you know, talk to my athlete afterwards and he's like you know, at no point did I feel like I wasn't prepared for this situation. That was totally crazy and something that you couldn't necessarily know was going to happen, because it's like we went through all the scenarios, we kind of had the checklist and training of all the things that might go wrong and at the end of the day, because it's such a long race, you're not going to hit it perfectly almost ever, you know. Sometimes you know someone has a miracle day, but more likely than not you're going to have to be troubleshooting during the event. And how can I, as you know your coach, make sure that you're not going to panic and you have some options for whatever goes wrong?
Speaker 1:Interesting, interesting. I got to ask you on the nutrition front, like what is it like, um, working with these athletes, especially in a cold races like this, where the you know out of the blue like we're getting rain and snow and sleep in a world of lots of gels and like liquid nutrition? Did you, or were people kind of abandoning that idea and going to more solids? Like what was it like in some of these aid stations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's really kind of individualized in that sense. But you know, what I try to recommend is you got to have a variety of options, like you got to have your A plan and have your B plan and your C plan as far as, like, what things work. If this doesn't work, my stomach's off or we're in this environmental condition, what are we going to do secondarily? So, for example, like if it was totally the opposite and it's a super hot race, you know your sweat rate is going to be really high, you're going to have to be plugging a lot more fluids, and if all you're doing is liquid nutrition, then you know you're not going to be able to take in as many fluids as you need because your stomach's going to be killing, because you're taking in way more calories than you had planned on.
Speaker 2:And so do you have a couple other options? Do you have a few gels that you can take? Do you have some solid food you can take so that you know if it's a little bit hotter than planned? You can rely on more of an electrolyte mix with less calories so you can lean into, you know, um, getting in more fluids while also not overdoing the carbohydrates at any point and vice versa. You know if it's, if it's a um a little bit colder out and you know you're not drinking quite as much, then maybe you can rely a little bit more on that. You know liquid nutrition, but also you know your stomach because you're going to be probably moving a little bit slower, can probably handle some more solid foods too. So you can kind of, you know, get ahead on the carbohydrate game and kind of settle your stomach before you're forced into you know, some tougher, hotter conditions, maybe later in a mountain race.
Speaker 1:Interesting. What were the aid stations at? Like you could, maybe you could speak to OCC and you can speak to all of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard good things man, I've heard cheeses.
Speaker 1:I've heard, I've heard like cured meats. I've heard good things Like no, totally talk about these aid stations. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean for OCC there's definitely not as much because it's not as long of a race.
Speaker 2:But, like, my favorite part of going out to UTMB is hanging out at the Treant aid station with the middle of the back of the Packers.
Speaker 2:Because what they do at that aid station is they have like the aid station set up for all the racers and then they have a crew area where there's just dudes like cooking up sausages and cooking up French fries and they have like a DJ and so when an athlete comes in from a different country like say, there's an athlete from Spain, then they're going to pull up a Spanish song and everyone's going to try to sing along. And then there's an athlete from Iceland and so then they're pulling up some Eurovision Iceland stuff going on there. So it is so fun and everyone's exhausted but they're having a good time. And you know, some people are drinking beers, some people are having coffee and some people are just chilling on French fries. It is such a great environment, One of the best kind of aid station experiences, because you're in this tiny French town with this little pink church and everyone. There's just hundreds of people huddled up, just hanging out together.
Speaker 1:That's so crazy. All right, so I got to ask you the question now You've done the Golden Trail series, you've seen Western States, you've seen UT like what has been, like the pinnacle experience for you? Like what have you liked the most?
Speaker 2:oh, that's tough because I think for me, racing wise I'd have a different answer than crewing and coaching wise, because, like bad water, crewing is a wild experience. Like it's certainly not for everyone, but like you're just being out there on that road with a bunch of white cars and your athlete going through it and, you know, trying to pace and crew them where it's just a constant. Like water, ice water, ice fuel, like all you're focusing on is just making sure they don't get dry. That was pretty awesome and pretty crazy. Um, the golden trail, final and Madeira that was a super cool experience. Just like not that it was like a vacation by any means, cause everyone was grinding out there, but like to be in a hotel with just a bunch of runners and to like get bussed around to a different course, laid all out on the line, go to bed and then try to do it again. Like that was a pretty surreal experience too and, I'd say, one of the most beautiful places I've ever visited and so'm definitely, you know, if you're thinking about doing Mewitt at some point. Madeira Island Ultra Trail highly recommend. That was pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:Western States, as far as like the spectacle and just like the top of, like the performance side of our sport, like there's nothing quite like you know people battling it out, you know through Forest Hill, which is such a cool coaching and crewing experience. But I mean I also just love the local races where you have just a bunch of buddies that are going to hang out and grind it out for a couple hours, and so I think that's what's the cool thing about ultra running. I mean, for me, when I was doing some marathons and then coming back to doing some ultras, I'm always thinking like, yeah, you're marathoning in different places, but it's like the same experience kind of every time, whereas you could do an ultra that is totally different than the other one and it's still the same sport and it's still an awesome community. So I just love that aspect of it where it's like you can go to a bunch of different races around the U S and have a totally different experience. But it'd be an awesome and, you know, a really kind of collaborative, um kind of loving community um at all of them. So so crazy, so great.
Speaker 1:All right, one of the things I did I can remember this from a couple of years ago. Last time we ran I was thinking about this. Uh, you said I would have you. You told me last time you'd eventually go back to Golden Trail. Is there a possibility we get you back doing Golden Trail?
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely, yeah, I mean it's tough because the idea of doing Black Canyon is super cool. I did Comrades this year. I love a new challenge but certainly I have unfinished business with a lot of those courses where I feel like being here in Colorado Springs having a lot more vert in my legs now and just you know just the more time you spend racing these races, the better you can pace them, the better. You know kind of just the feel of the intensity in some of these races. Like Broken Arrow was my first major trail race and it kicked my butt Like I want to go back there and kind of right that wrong a little bit. Um, quebec mega trail I did that when it was the golden trail national series qualifier. That was awesome. So certainly I want to go back and kind of rewrite some of these races. But also you know they're putting out different races for these qualifiers every year and I you know it's another opportunity to see a different part of the country and race some different guys.
Speaker 1:Super cool, so I got to ask you this. Cause this is? This is an interesting question. One of the things I really admire about you, that I like to see in folks is that, like you're not just an athlete, you're also a coach, and the coach is like your main.
Speaker 1:You're kind of your main thing, you do both and you do both at a very high level. What, um, how like? Obviously you said you're. You said you're very competitive mentally when you approach it. You're a competitive athlete. How do you approach it now? Is it also taking notes and learning for you? Is it more research now for you when you do these races as a coach, so you can learn how to apply this from a coaching perspective to your athletes if they were in the same race? Or how do you approach it now?
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah, no, that's a great question. I feel like it's definitely evolved over the years because, like coming from college, you know, coming into the sport and having some success early, it was definitely like I want to compete at the highest level, like this, I care about this just as much as my coaching. And then you start coaching and like you realize kind of how professionalized everyone else is around you and kind of the expectations there as a CTS coach and it's like well, yes, I want to do really well and I like I don't want to take away from the fact that, like I train hard, I come to these races like wanting to compete and that's my goal. But at the end of the day, like I'm a coach and that's my like big mission is to be the best coach I can be.
Speaker 2:And if I can race well and and battle it out and have a great time at these races, I'm going to do that too. But at the end of the day, like I'm here to learn, I'm here to, you know, be here for my athletes first and foremost. And so, like I'm not picking races where we're racing the same race ideally, Um, and I'm going out to take notes first and foremost. But you know if I can get in and and and, you know, rip a couple of heads off and and have a lot of fun battling it out, like I love that stuff, like it is the most fun and to be able to do that, you know, for four to five hours where you know you have highs and lows and you know you're you're chasing after someone who, like, is really good at climbing, so they kick your butt and then you're trying to chase them down down a downhill, like that is the most fun thing in the world to me.
Speaker 1:So, man dude what a good answer. Love that. Uh, what. What's next for you? Racing wise Like, what do you think? What's what's on the bucket list, or something that you want to get to in 26, or with the time we got left in 25?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's, it's tough because, you know, for me, um, a lot of my schedule does revolve around going to these crewing events.
Speaker 2:So, like I'll be at Javelina crewing athletes, I'll definitely be back at Western States crewing athletes, Leadville, UTMB, Um, but black Canyon looks awesome. It's another one of those races where, um, kind of like how I talked about, you know you're going to see someone ahead of you, a pack of dudes, there's going to be a pack of dudes behind you and you know you're you're doing your best to mix it up with the competitive field, and so that's super exciting to me. I'm probably going to sign up for that, but I certainly, you know, want to get my mountain chops back. Like I felt, like you know, at OCC I had just a small amount of time to try to like piece it all together for that race and like if I could go back and if I can get a week just to spend out there, or, you know, a couple months here in Colorado Springs, I think it would go a long way and I think it'd be fun to feel a little bit more competitive than I was this past year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and still, I mean, dude, you were top, just right out of top 100. Like you're right there, which is like for people that I think there's like what? 3000 or something, like people in that race or some yeah, there's a lot of ridiculous number. Did you see a Jim Wamsley on the starting line Like would you? Did you see any of the any of like the tip of the spear athletes on the starting line?
Speaker 2:I did. I did. It's always fun because I feel like the you know, non-elite or non-competitive athletes, like of course they're competing their butts out, but like in terms of like the people that aren't trying to like podium or be top 50, you know they're not necessarily warming up for a 60K race, but then you have these dudes that are like gonna go hard, like out the gate, and ladies too, and so it's always fun. All of the pros are finding these little nooks and crannies in this town to warm up, and so it's like all the people that are that are competing at the front, they're all doing the same thing. And so, like you're, you're chatting with them, you're saying, hi, one of our athletes, uh, joaquin Lopez, who's typically, you know, a big time hundred mile racer, um, from Ecuador. He dropped down in distance cause he's doing worlds here in a couple of weeks, and so I was hanging out with him. We're doing strides together and just talking about the race changes and stuff, and so that's that's one of the kind of most fun parts of kind of the experiences is getting it to, you know, kind of catch up with people before and after the race and kind of recounting the stories of like the climb, like oh, you kicked my butt up this climb, like how are you feeling? And all that stuff.
Speaker 2:I got to hang out with Hannah, all good, for a little bit of the uh martini climb and that was awesome, um, so, yeah, it's. It's really cool that to see everyone out there, because I feel like everyone has a slightly different schedule for the year. But like there's these races where everyone comes together for and you know people are going to be out there. You know Pike's peak is is like that for a lot of local Colorado mountain runners, where it's like I haven't seen you in a couple of months. I know you're shredding and you crushed these races and it's like cool, let's, let's go and do it here together. Um, and so just the opportunity to kind of be in community with these other runners that are really trying to be at the top of the podium is is really fun yeah, so cool, so cool.
Speaker 1:So I I imagine you'll be doing it every year.
Speaker 2:Then you'll be going back to uh, to chamonix oh yeah, whether racing or not, I'll be coaching the crew in there for I don't know how many years I've never been dude, I gotta go.
Speaker 1:It's like every year we're like we got to do this, like I think now, like from a media perspective, I like you know what I really would love to do, etc and then just do ETC and do the media throughout the rest of the week, which would be kind of fun.
Speaker 2:I don't know, It'd be kind of but yeah, that's a different story.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about nutrition, or like nutrition and hydration. One of the cool things we kind of talked about offline and I told you this I'm going to get a sweat test tomorrow through CTS. This was something you go you were talking about, like how you guys offer that. Maybe talk about some of these sweat tests, um, and like what you can expect from them and what you do, cause I'm just very curious as like what to expect and like how, how to dial in my hydration Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we use precision hydration software. Um, we we kind of purchased it as a comp as a company, just seeing it as a value add, you know, to our lab services. So we do LT, vo, two tests and then we do this precision um hydration sweat test, and so what we're doing in the sweat test is we are getting the kind of concentration of the sodium that you have in your sweat per liter of sweat lost. That's kind of the goal of what we're doing. And so the nice thing about this test is you really only have to do it once, because it's very genetically determined and it kind of puts you on a spectrum of you know, are you a um heavy salt sweater, are you a not very salt sweater?
Speaker 2:And in terms of kind of what that means to your hydration plan, it really depends, uh, or you know the results, then dictate what do you do from an electrolyte standpoint, for you know various environmental conditions that you find yourself in on race day, and so there's one piece of the puzzle there with the um, the sodium sweat concentration, and then the other piece of the puzzle is to then on your own time go and figure out you know what is your sweat rate for um a certain environmental condition, and so my recommendations are always you know you get this test and that's a lot of great information, but you need to pair it with knowing your sweat rate for um kind of the race conditions that you're training for, and so doing that a couple of times a year and a couple of different environmental conditions is typically my recommendation, cause we're not trying to like pin it down perfectly, we're just trying to put you in a good ballpark because, as you know, whether it's a shorter mountain race or you know you're doing UTMB, the weather over the course of that day is going to drastically change, like a lot of these mountain races.
Speaker 2:You're starting at seven, eight in the morning, and in the mountains it's going to be, you know, 40 to 60 degrees, and then by the time you get to 10, 11, 12, um, it could be rainy and cold, it could be 80 and sunny, and the sun's beaten down at 8,000 feet, um, and so in terms of kind of pairing those things together, then you have an idea of you know where should you be leaning in terms of the products that you're taking in on the kind of um, electrolyte and kind of uh drink and fluid side of things as well as like do you need a couple of gels with a lot of sodium, too, or salt pills to supplement that?
Speaker 1:How do you get? This is just like out of pure curiosity. How do you obtain your sweat rate Like how do you get that? Do you like measure? Do you like? I've heard people weigh themselves before and after. Is that what basically people do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the most simple way to do it is to weigh yourself naked before you go for a run, then go for a run and typically you know it's just an hour.
Speaker 2:It just makes the math more easy and you know making sure that you don't drink any water during that run and if you go to the bathroom, kind of, you can get a rough calculation of how much you lost from that and then weigh yourself naked afterwards, after you're toweling yourself down, and that gives you a rough idea of like are you losing two pounds?
Speaker 2:Are you losing? I've seen like five and a half pounds, which, if someone's losing five and a half pounds, like it is very important that, like you get a sweat test, like sodium sweat test, because those numbers are probably going to be crazy high and we're going to have to find some products that are going to get you, you know, a thousand milligrams per 500 milliliter of of uh fluid ingested or more. Um, and I've certainly worked with those athletes and it's not like you can't be successful, but you certainly have to be more dialed versus if you're on the low end of that spectrum, you can pretty much use whatever products you want and get by Interesting dude, I I have to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Like I, we've talked about this before offline and, like you know, ridiculous cramping, and so that's why I'm like, all right, I got to get this figured out. So anybody listening to this that gets cramping or like wants to know like there's always an idea, there's always a way to be able to solve for that and try to figure it out.
Speaker 1:It's why I yeah, yeah, and I think one of the things too that I thought was kind of cool was like the precision stuff, Like it kind of told you, like I guess it gives it an idea on the paper like how many milliliter or how much sodium to take in, like before. I think, that's like my big thing is like how much it's taken before, how much it's taken during, and kind of figuring that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah, and I think a lot of people think that. You know it's just about the during piece of it. But, similar to carbohydrates, like you have glycogen stores in your body, you also have salt stores in your body. And if someone's trying to like eat clean, as someone might say, like a big buzzword there, um, you know they might be ingesting less sodium in their diet on a regular basis, which is great from a health perspective. If you're not like a heavy volume endurance runner that has these big races where it might be exposed and hot and you're using a bunch of that sodium and so, like in that um example, you would really want to preload the night before the morning of and then be on top of whatever that number is that you're losing so that you're not dealing with those cramps and dehydration when you're descending in that last descent to finish the race You're chasing someone down. It's like, oh no, I can't move anymore as well as I want because I'm cramping. I got to slow down.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure. Do you have all your athletes do sweat Like? I was just talking to a coach recently and we were talking about lactate testing. We're talking about a few things and like that's how one of the things that did came up was like sweat testing. Do you have all your athletes do sweat tests and stuff like that, or no?
Speaker 2:Certainly sweat rate tests that they can do at home. I'm not going to tell someone to pay $200 to do the test just because, like I know, that most people are in a ballpark range that I'm going to recommend on a regular basis for their long runs and for their races. But certainly you know, if someone's having issues with it and you know it's it's a constant problem and we're always trying to figure out, like, what's going wrong, why their legs are shutting down or they're feeling really dehydrated or their performance just drops way off in the second half of long runs and races then certainly it's going to be top of mind for something that I recommend Um, just cause it's so easy to get done you only need to do it once and like, yeah, I get it, it's 200 bucks, but it goes a long way. If you know you get a lot of joy out of running these races at your best and it's like you just keep shutting down all the time, you might as well figure that out.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree and this is the nerd in me to for the lactate testing and VO2 testing at CTS. Do you have to be a CTS athlete to do that?
Speaker 2:Or no. No, you can come by whenever man.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, all right, we're going to be hanging out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I help out with those, but Renee Eastman she's one of our cycling coaches and has been doing these tests for 25 years. She can give a good LTVO2 test. It takes it takes a little bit of um, experience and kind of fine tuning with it and then kind of putting it out in in a way that you can understand and use it practically. I think is is really valuable, even though, like you don't have to do it. It just certainly gives you a lot of really cool data and and things that you can go off of, not only from a pacing and zones perspective, but also from a feeling perspective, to just see you know what you're burning at different intensities.
Speaker 1:Ooh, dude on this topic. All right, let's let's talk about this Cause obviously I hear a lot of like. The buzzwords are always like rate of perceived exertion, and then you meet a lot of coaches that also coach off of like. You know, I know a ton of Nordic skiers, right, and a lot of them are so dialed on heart rate zones. How do you like? What are you off of Like?
Speaker 2:are you a rate of perceived exertion guy? Are you like a heart rate zone coach, like how does it? Yeah, I think it really depends and I think, rather than saying I'm one versus the other, I like using tools and giving athletes different tools to help understand things better, because certainly heart rate's going to play into your intensity and if someone was to, you know, do an LTVO2 test, we would have good heart rate zones for them to train at. But, that being said, the the issue with heart rate zone training is that there's a lot of things that can interfere with your heart rate at certain intensities, so caffeine, fatigue, lack of sleep, being in a hot environment, and so with those things, I don't want my athlete to be, you know, just trusting these numbers on their watch and making decisions based on that. I want them to be intuitive about.
Speaker 2:You know, how am I feeling, what does my heart rate say, what does my pace say, and how can I make a wealth informed decision about whatever they're going through in the race, whether it's like to make a move, to make a hard move in the middle of an ultra, like you want to make sure that you're not burning too many matches early, and I think you know being informed about, kind of just internally, how you're breathing and you know, could you talk to someone or are you totally just like breathing super hard, short and rapid, and you're already kind of working pretty hard, probably not a good time to make another move to hold on to someone.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, like if you're just using RPE and you don't have an idea of, like, what your paces look like for you know, a faster race, then you could totally be going a little bit too fast or too slow, because you know, at the start of the race everyone feels fresh and awesome and wants to get after it. So I, I like, I like a bunch of different things to kind of put to, to corral the athlete into understanding where they're at intensity wise, where they need to be intensity wise over the course of the context of this race, because you can rip in zone three and zone four heart rate wise if it's, you know, going to be a really short Cirque series climb, but I don't want you ripping in zone four if you're like 30 miles into 100 mile race. So it really depends.
Speaker 1:That's so true. I got to ask you this. In a world of like dude I've been, I see so many things like heart rate monitors and like now I see I just saw this like hydration.
Speaker 1:uh, because I'm obviously trying to figure out the hydration thing now but like I see this like sweat rate, like like thing that you can wear on your arm I've seen athletes wearing. Do any of these things work? Like, do you, do you do subscribe to any of these things? Or is this just like fancy stuff to get people to like like kind of pay for as like a monthly subscription, like Like is there? Obviously you don't want to. You know tech can help, but like I'm just curious, is like any of this stuff actually legit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there are some use cases for everything. But I think in this world of tech there's a lot of things that like put themselves on the market before they're ready to be put on the market and then you know people get excited because they see it and you know let's run. Or you know ultra running magazine and they want to. You know, try all these things. But it's like, is the utility of this going to add to your performance? Most of the time, no, like basic things like getting a heart rate monitor is always going to be helpful because your watch heart rate can be finicky depending on the watch, um, and depending on the environmental conditions. If you're just not getting a good reading because your watch isn't kind of sticking to your skin, well, but something like some of those continuous glucose monitors like that can be helpful for a specific type of person in a specific use case. But I'm not going to tell everyone to buy one, for example, because a lot of people can get by with you know their their pace data using RPE. Well, in a heart rate monitor Like that is very basic and easy.
Speaker 2:I am curious about the continuous lactate monitors, um, especially for, you know, track runners, where you know they have specific paces and specific goals for sessions.
Speaker 2:Um, I think you know you could do it in some cases on the trail. But you know, when you're dealing with different inclines then really like what are you trying to find, you know, in terms of like um pacing for specific climbs for a race, are you trying to like dial in your zones or just make sure you're not overdoing things? Well, you can like, you can do that by just like knowing your, your heart rate zones, knowing your RPE at that intensity and kind of reading it off of that. But I could see you know, for someone who's doing specific like the same track or road sessions, you know over and over and over and they want to see how their lactate kind of um changes or looks over time in these workouts. Like it could be totally beneficial. But, like I said, you know people are starting to produce these products but like I think it's going to take another year or two before it's actually going to be reliable and worth our while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree, I agree, it's interesting. I mean, dude, there's a tech piece for it. Like I didn't even bring up the glucose monitoring, I forgot all about that, but you see people with them all the time Like wow, like, um, yeah, I think it was. I can't remember what specific athlete like showed me the the sweat monitor and I was like, oh, that's nifty dude.
Speaker 2:But does it?
Speaker 1:actually work Like does it, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:We've tested a couple of them and they're so hit or miss, but that was also a few years ago and we've kind of ditched them since, and so maybe they're awesome now and maybe it's something you know worth looking into. I always think having a skeptical eye with a lot of things that look super new and shiny and innovative is the way to go, because you just never know and they're going to market it like it's the coolest thing ever Right now.
Speaker 1:So true, so true All right, I can ask you a question. I ask every person that comes on this podcast has become a trend now and I always like people's take on this how, how have you? You've obviously been in the sport now for a few years and you've seen the sport change drastically, as we all have.
Speaker 1:What's your take on it? Are you excited to see the direction of the sport is going? Are you liking it? Is there anything you don't like? Is there anything that throws up a red flag, or are you loving every aspect of it?
Speaker 2:I mean there's pros and cons to every sport and kind of the direction we're going. I think the community, as far as I've seen it lately, is still strong and inclusive and really kind of loving, which I like. Certainly, with the professionalization of the sport, we're getting a lot of people that don't really know kind of what trail running is about coming into the sport and just trying to make a buck out of it, which I'm skeptical of. Kind of the marketing and just trying to make a buck out of it, which you know I'm skeptical of of kind of the marketing and the branding and and people just wanting to extract rather than provide and add to the sport. Um, but on a whole, because I'm a coach and I love competing and I love the competitive side of the sport, I think it's awesome that more and more people are coming in and making it a more competitive sport. Like if that means I finish 150th next OCC, but I had an awesome race and I was proud of it, so be it.
Speaker 2:I want this sport to be as competitive as possible because it'd be awesome if it was in the Olympics, it'd be awesome if it was on TV, it'd be awesome if more of the US is getting involved in it.
Speaker 2:But at the same time there's going to be a lot of strain to the added people in the sport. Like Western States it's already really hard to get into what happens if the sport triples in in five years, like that's a bummer for people that have been trying to get into Western States for years and years. Um, so certainly there's going to be kind of it's growing pains. But in general I think the people that come into the sport come into it with true intentions of wanting to get the most out of themselves, explore nature and, you know, be a part of this community, and so I'm all for the direction it's going, as long as people who come into the sport don't want to make it something it's not and make it about the gear and make it about making money and make it about all these other things that like aren't true to, I think, what makes this sport so awesome.
Speaker 1:Dude, I love it. What's up? All right. So you're, you want the Olympics to happen? I, I listen. I asked this person this question to everybody.
Speaker 1:I always bring it up Cause I always bring up like TV rights and I'm like all right if we do do the Olympics, like these, like our athletes got to make money, like I think that's the thing. Um, like what do you think it would be? A VK? You think it would be flower format, like golden trail. Like what do you think they would go to? Like I, I, I wonder this. Or like a mountain classic.
Speaker 2:I think it would be awesome if it was like a, a three stage event where all of the stages are like under 25 K but you have like a steep VK. You have like a you know technical, like broken arrow-esque, where they can do like a course, where there's awesome you know viewership, like they can come up to aid stations, it's easily accessible, you can get kind of that Sierra's and all vibe up a climb. That would be sick. But then also, you know, maybe you get some flat fast running in there too, where, um, you know they're, they're going through town, kind of like how golden trail was I think it was last year where it was like a looped course.
Speaker 2:I think having a combination of all those things I think would play to the strengths of different people and so you'd have, you know, a lot of commentary about you know what course, what person that like a certain course, favors, um, you can then have a lot of viewership, Um, but at the same time you can make it you know, more of an anaerobic event for the VK, but then you can always have those aerobic monsters that maybe are coming from the 50 K distance still be successful. For me it's like you want to make it to where it's like as participant friendly for a bunch of different types of runners as possible, as well as viewer friendly, so that more people can buy into the sport.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it, dude, could you, what do you think? You think we're 10 years away, 15 years away, like I think we're close. I mean we got to get drug testing, like that's really important. Yeah, out of season drug testing, which?
Speaker 2:is like that's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Out of season drug testing which is like that's a whole nother conversation.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, and the problem is is like it's so expensive to do that well, and so you have to have enough money in the sport to do that well, but then you'll still have to pay the athletes enough for that to happen.
Speaker 2:And so I realized that you know there needs to be money poured into the sport to make all of these competitive, professional things happen.
Speaker 2:But certainly, you know, for a lot of people that have been in the sport for a while, it certainly makes them nervous the idea of more money getting poured in and it turning into something that it currently isn't.
Speaker 2:And so I think there's a lot of good people that are like, care a ton about this sport, that are will advocate for it to be treated the right way, and I think the professional trail runners association you know them being a strong presence and continuing to be a strong presence, I think goes a long way in that as well as just you know you as a media member, me as a coach, continuing to kind of make sure that things aren't getting all wacky and out of control.
Speaker 2:But I hope it's in the next 10 years. That would be so cool, because it would be awesome to see someone who's a big, bright talent now be able to hold on to their career for that long, to see them in it with this new generation of runners. Because I think it would just be really special, in this age of the sport rapidly growing, to have one of the more homegrown runners be able to maintain that fitness, to be one of kind of the more homegrown runners you know, be able to maintain that fitness, to kind of be one of those old heads that's still crushing when we eventually hopefully get an Olympic spot.
Speaker 1:Dude, that would be so crazy and but it's so true. I really agree with that. And my other thing with the Olympics is and I've seen this brought up on a couple of podcasts and you think about it too it's like, when it comes to the greats, like will it be judged against Cause, joe, joe's what? 41, 42. So, if the Olympics is in 10 years, I mean maybe he does, Unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Hopefully Maybe he does.
Speaker 1:He's an ageless wonder but like would that be? Like does that get judged against you if you don't become an Olympian? But it's like that opportunity wasn't afforded to him. Opportunity wasn't afforded to him because if anyone was going to be it, it probably would have been him, right? Yeah, like that opportunity wasn't afforded to him. So it's like how does your legacy look back on you from the greats? And matt carpenter is a lot. In the same way too, you can take ideas from that, because it's like the infrastructure of the sport wasn't that big in the time that he ran. So a lot of like outside of the mythos of pike's peak and who matt carpenter was, and like ledville and stuff like that, a lot of it faded in the legend in a lot of ways, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah my only hope is that, like when it does get that big, like we still remember the greats and those that you know and the people that contributed to the sport in the biggest ways, which is kind of I, I think we will.
Speaker 2:I mean, just like I'm a big sports fan in general, like I follow basketball, I follow football, all the things. And when I think about, like looking back to Bill Russell, for example, like people still hold him in reverence even though, like, the likelihood of him being successful or as successful as he was in this day and age probably isn't as likely because Bill Russell isn't shooting threes like the rest of these bigs now, for example. But a conversation that I like to have with a lot of the coaches is we're kind of seeing this change is like, where are we relative to another famous sport? Like if we talk about mma, for example, also a huge, growing sport, like where, if we were to put ourselves as a sport into the context of another sport, like, are we kind of in the Bill Russell era of, you know, trail running right now? Or are we in the Larry Bird, magic Johnson era? Or are we in the Michael Jordan era? Like, meaning, you know, it's going to become a lot bigger. We're going to have a lot more investment into the sport. It's going to get more competitive.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious, where are we in the spectrum? Sport, it's going to get more competitive. I'm just curious, where are we in the spectrum Like is is Jim Walmsley. Could would he get you know 12 at OCC 20 years from now, or is he still winning? I don't know, I, but it's a, it's a really fun thing to throw around.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting because, dude, and you take an athlete like Jim right and you know Jim's not young dude, jim's 35 and he's still winning these races, which is bananas, yeah, and given the athletes that he kind of came up with and trained with, who, a lot of them, are no longer in the sport anymore. So it's like, what is it that makes Jim different and what makes him special, right, it's, you know, and, like you said, like is that an athlete that really is an ageless wonder in the sense where, like, does how will his times, like, hold up against 2040, 2035?
Speaker 2:OCC and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes you wonder, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean Matt Carpenter's records only fell with Remy two. What was it Two years ago?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, what's to say, some of Jim's records aren't going to stick around for another 20 years. I don't know, but we certainly have a bunch of crushers that are coming up in the women's side and the men's side. So we'll see, that's true.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this one last question Are you guys like constantly in the white papers, especially as the sport evolves and grows, are you guys constantly like reading the research and like changing things and tweaking things, or do you kind of keep the ship steady, like how do you make adjustments, as you guys, as you, as you guys go from a coach?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, as far as, like research, it's always evolving and we're always trying to stay on top of it. And you know, if there's something that comes out that's contradictory to what we're doing, certainly we're going to weigh it. But you know, certainly you know the things that we try to do. It's not just, you know, one paper that we're going off of. We're we're trying to, you know, because not everything's also about ultra running. You know, you have other sports where there's other kind of tests with, you know, similar aerobic energy systems that we're trying to glean off of, and so we're trying to make educated guesses with the information that we have. And certainly the more information that comes out, the better we can make those decisions.
Speaker 2:Because the reality is, I think a lot of people who aren't in kind of the kinesiology space think that you know there's certain things that are for sure true and like no matter what, nothing's going to change that.
Speaker 2:But like, the reality is is like I feel like we're only like 10% figuring out, you know, as, like all of the different scientific data and research that could benefit our sport, you know there's only a certain amount of money that can get poured into research and so we're getting whatever you know people deem as a good research paper for their um, universities and colleges, and and whatever we get, we're going to grab and read and and and try to implement that If, if it's, you know, a well-done research article and we think it's, you know, potentially going to help our athletes. But, um, there's a long ways to go in the science space. We're continuing to learn more, there's continuing to be more technology and, like, we're talking about ways to um monitor intensity and, you know, um, make adjustments to training based on, you know, what we see and what's out there. And so it's not the wild West, but it's certainly not all figured out either. Um, and we're just doing our best to make those educated guesses and be as professional as we can about it.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. I feel like that's a good place to stop. Addison Smith, Thank you so much for coming on the podcast man. Do we have to do more of these? Like I really like I want to maybe start a mini series doing talking.
Speaker 2:I'm down. Yeah, um, dude, thank you so much for coming, yep what'd you guys think?
Speaker 1:oh man, I want to thank addison so much for coming on the podcast lots of good stuff, lots of good nuggets of wisdom and just good pieces of information. He is just full of uh, just so much good info. So really excited to have a chat with him. Looking forward to further chats down the line. I'm thinking like, maybe we do like a mini series or something or something cool for short trail coaching and stuff like that. I think there'd be some good stuff for the audience to take away there. I don't know, maybe we'll get something in the pipeline. It'd be kind of fun. Guys, before you get going, the best way you can support Addison is to give him a follow on Instagram and if you are in the market for a coach, click the link in his bio. You can find him on Instagram at Addison underscore Smith 16. That's A-D-D-I-S-O-N underscore Smith 16. And on his bio you can find him. If you guys are in the market for a coach right now and are interested in working with CTS and someone as talented as Addison, you can find him at trainwrightcom slash coaches slash Addison Smith. Or if you just go into the Google search, type in Addison Smith CTS, you will be able to go onto their website and book a consultation with him and ask him any questions or check his availability. I'm sure he'd be interested and receptive. If you guys are looking for a coach right now, so go ahead and check that out and let them know also what you guys thought about the episode. Guys, before we get going, the best way you can support this podcast is give us a five star rating and review on Apple, spotify, youtube or wherever you consume your podcasts. You can also support us by going on ultimate directioncom. And, yeah, if you're in the market for a new vest belt, any type of hydration solution, water flask or soft flask the best way you can do is support us through that Use code steepstuffpod. That's steepstuffpod one word, and that's going to get you 25% off your cart.
Speaker 1:Ultimate Directions just dropped some really good stuff A new UltraVest 12 liter as well as a RaceVest 6 liter. They're in some beautiful colorways. They're brand new. They're completely different than other vests that they've dropped in their lineup. They're super dynamic and stretchy and kind of form to anybody or body type. Also, make sure to check out the new quiver as well. They just dropped a quiver that's really dope. That kind of fits to any of their vests in their lineup and that's going to help you if you're kind of in the long trail scene or the short trail scene and looking for something to hold your poles. If you guys are pole people, you can definitely use the quiver there to help you on every day.
Speaker 1:As well as two different types of belts their utility belt and their comfort belt. Both work really well on race day and training. Lots of storage in there and all kinds of good stuff. So, guys, hope you enjoy it. Like I said, use code SteepStuffPod. That's going to get you 25% off your cart. And, yeah, lots of good stuff coming down the pipeline. This week we got lots of big stuff coming out for the rut, for the Pikes Peak Marathon in Ascent, as well as World Mountain Running Champs. I've got some stuff in the pipeline. It's going to be all kinds of really cool stuff that I'm super excited about. The pipeline. It's going to be all kinds of really cool stuff that I'm super excited about.
Speaker 1:On top of that, this Thursday, if you guys happen to be on the front range this Thursday night at 5.30pm, pop on over to the Las Partivas store in downtown Boulder. Guys, I'm going to be interviewing Anton Karpichka. Super excited for this opportunity. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to ask him all kinds of good questions. I think you'll get a kick out of it. I think you guys will too. I think it'll be a super fun in-person interview. Yeah, super nervous for this one Should be kind of fun. Guys, have a great rest of your week. Thanks so much. Thank you. We'll see you next time.
