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The Steep Stuff Podcast
Michelino Sunseri - Pre 2025 World Trail Championship Interview
What does it truly mean to represent your country on the world stage? For Michelino Senseri, it's the fulfillment of a childhood dream that once seemed impossible. Speaking from Spain where he's been meticulously studying the World Trail Championship course, Michelino offers an unfiltered look at what American trail runners can expect when they toe the line against the world's best.
The terrain in Spain presents a fascinating challenge - more technical than anything in the United States, with runnable climbs that zigzag up mountains and downhills so steep and rocky that Michelino warns "if it rains the night before, you're gonna wish to God you had lugs and good rubber." His early arrival and careful course reconnaissance reveal a race that will demand technical proficiency, strategic pacing, and mental fortitude from every competitor.
Despite what he calls a "bumpy season," Michelino approaches this championship with refreshing clarity and determination. "How many chances do you have to line up at a world championship? If you're not rolling the dice and going for it, then why are you there?" This all-in mentality extends to his assessment of Team USA's chances against powerhouse nations like Spain, Italy, and France. With teammates Eli Hemming, David Sinclair, Seth DeMoor, Noah Williams, and late addition Max King (replacing injured Ryan Becker), Michelino believes they have the firepower to challenge for gold if three Americans can crack the top 15.
Perhaps most compelling is Michelino's perspective on what success actually means. "The dream was not to win in the jersey. The dream has been to represent the jersey and the colors and the country." In a sport often focused on individual achievement, his pride in wearing the stars and stripes transcends personal results. Listen now for an insider's perspective on international competition and what it truly means to race not just for yourself, but for something larger.
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Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
It's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are live. Michelino Senseri. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, buddy? Good dude.
Speaker 2:Stoked to be here. Just woke up from a siesta over here in Spain, man.
Speaker 1:Is that a thing they do there? They do siestas pretty often.
Speaker 2:Dude, it's kind of wild. A lot of the restaurants, anytime we've tried to go after runs's closed or they're not serving food till you know 8 pm. Everyone's just hanging out drinking at five, six, seven o'clock having a couple free dinner beers, and then the restaurant's all open. They're like all right, finally like I can get some dinner, uh. But yeah, definitely it's kind of cool dude, I would never go back.
Speaker 1:I would just stay if I were you. Honestly, like it sounds like it sounds a bit like europe. Every time I've been to europe I'm just like, why do I go back? It's just so nice over there. Europe's amazing thought about it.
Speaker 2:Food's better. The only problem is nobody smiles around here. Man, like I don't know, I'm a pretty friendly guy so I usually like smile and say hi to everybody on the trails. Yeah, but I don't know, I'm a pretty friendly guy so I usually like smile and say hi to everybody on the trails. But I don't know, around town it's just like you say hi or smile and everybody just kind of mean mugs, you like as you walk by and nobody says anything. It's kind of I don't know, it's not very friendly, I don't think.
Speaker 1:That's a little weird yeah.
Speaker 2:They don't really smile.
Speaker 1:Euros don't really smile for photos either, Do they? I don't know. I'm trying to think, or is that just like people from the 1800s? I don't know so well, man, we're here to do this conversation, to talk about, talk about worlds, talk about the short course, talk about where you're at and your excitement level for it. You know you've been out, you've been training on the course a bit what your initial thoughts are you? Is the stoke level high for this?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I mean I think initial thoughts, the course is more technical than probably anything in the us, but it like comes in waves, you know, like it's really I don't know, it's really hard to compare it to anything Like maybe maybe the rut would be the closest comparison, um, but honestly it's almost more runnable than the rut. But then the actual techie sections are way more technical, um, but then the the gradient of the uphills and downhills is way steeper. Um, I don't know, it's really it's. It'll be interesting. I. I mean, it seems like all the uphills are super runnable, which I think you know Team USA we got a lot of guys on the team that are going to smash the runnable uphills.
Speaker 2:Uh, the downhills are brutally steep and, uh, technical. So, like that very first downhill, like it's, it's flowy and runnable, if you're, if you like techie terrain and you know, rocky like, kind of like it's almost like it's all eroded out from water, like a lot of it's. There's not even really a trail, like it'll just be like an erosion channel and then like patches of trails to the right or left, it's like there's no like one maintained trail, it's kind of just all over the place. So it's pretty fun. I mean, if anything it's, I don't know there's a lot of areas where it's pretty fun. I mean, if anything it's, I don't know there's a lot of areas where it's just like choose your own adventure, you know, like it's like all right, have at it, Like go, go, run fast down something, um, but it'll be interesting, I think. Uh, I think we've got a lot of guys that are going to have quite a bit of strengths. I really can't see any weaknesses on our team with the course itself.
Speaker 1:So it'll be fun Nice. Have you been able to get out with any? I know a lot of people are there. Have you been able to get out with any of the teammates at all on on the short trail team?
Speaker 2:Not on the short trail team. No, I think I'm the only person here. I think Eli might be coming out like tomorrow. Okay, I not on the short trail team. No, I think I'm the only person here. I think eli might be coming out like tomorrow. Okay, um, I think he'll be here soon, um, but maybe get out with eli soon. Um, got out with some people in the long trail team, though.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm able to run with some americans, so that's nice nice, there you go, a little camaraderie, you know, oh yeah, yeah, has, um, I don't know. Just like what are you thinking? Does this, this type of course? Does it make you change like shoe ideas for what type of shoe you'll be wearing? Uh, adjust for anything, cause it's going to be. I've heard like this could be a five or six hour race. Like, has it made you adjust, like your idea for duration and things like that, because it is seems extremely technical? Like, how has it changed your, your preconceived notions for what, now that you've gotten to play on it?
Speaker 2:um, I think it definitely requires something with lugs, especially if it's wet.
Speaker 2:There's quite a few different really steep downhills that are, you know, 20% grade, that are just straight down a patch of grass. So if it's wet at all, like people will be eating it left and right, sliding down. That. I mean the very last section, the 10-mile section, of course, is a lot of that plus a lot of rock. So I mean, if it rains the night before, rains the morning of, or if it's just extra humid, I mean mean you're gonna wish to god you had lugs and good rubber, um, because you will go slipping and sliding, um, but if it's dry I mean if it's dry though, like yeah, you still do want those lugs, but the rubber won't be as big of a deal um, but yeah, that I mean. The one thing that is really surprising to me is you look at the course profile and it looks like it's just straight up for all the climbs, but surprisingly they just zigzag up and it's all super runnable. So I could see, I don't know, like polls. I'm not gonna bother with poles, mostly because I suck with them, um, but also because I just don't think it's gonna be really required, like the top of each climb, like you'll get you know like the first climb is 4500 feet, so you'll probably get you know, 3800 feet up that's super runnable and switchbacky and then have to use your poles for the last, final part of the climb. So you know, you know like you could be using them for maybe 10, 12 minutes on the first climb, then the second climb kind of the same thing, but less times, like maybe five or six minutes on that climb, and then the very, very final climb. You know, two and a half hours after that you might use them again.
Speaker 2:Um, so I don't know, I don't think it's so. I mean, knowing the Europeans, like you know Antonio Martinez Perez and you know Manuel, guys who are known for using their poles really well, like I'm sure they're going to use them and they're really good at it. So I mean, of course it's going to help them. But I don't think you need to be somebody that uses poles to, you know, to podium at this race or to finish top 10. Um, in the long trail, 100. Like, if you're not using poles in the long trail, like you're probably totally screwed. Um, yeah, because that's just a. I mean what it's? An 80k, but you know the sections that I have ran of it and know of it. It's like, yeah, it's not gonna that that one's way. Their course seems to be far more rugged than ours is. So, yeah, ours is just kind of kind of not pancake, like not pancakey, but like it's it's flat uphill. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:yeah, like super vulnerable oh, interesting, interesting, all right, so I gotta talk team dynamics here. It's been interesting for me because, like I'm I'm very close with the guys on the mountain classic team. Like I know cam and cam close with the guys on the mountain classic team. Like I know cam and cam's kind of taken more of a this leadership role in a lot of ways on the mountain classic team and try to organize a camps and stuff like that and have people out on your guys's end for the short trail. Have you guys been in contact with one another? I know unfortunately I guess this is live news now people know about this that ryan becker is not going to be racing and that he is going to be replaced. I don't know if I can say by who uh, I'm not going to leak that yet until it becomes official or if they oh, dude, entry lists are are public, so max king.
Speaker 1:Max king is going to be replacing him have you guys, have you guys talked like, have you guys been able to, like you know, talk as a team and have any of those discussions?
Speaker 2:for, uh, as far as that goes, uh, we just shared our first text messages today. So what is the september 17th like? We have a. We have a whatsapp group that, uh, tom hooper and paul made okay um, but there hasn't really been much communication on it.
Speaker 2:Just because nobody's out here yet, I mean it's really, it's really just me. Uh, eli, like I said, eli's out in europe but he's not here in spain yet. I think he's gonna be be here, like I said, today or tomorrow somewhere, but yeah, there hasn't been much communication yet. I mean that will change. I think people start rolling in early next week, maybe this weekend. I know Max and David get here next Monday. I think Seth's at a wedding Like I've been kind of texting people individually a little bit, but not all together Like Seth has a wedding this weekend, so I think he'll be probably out here by Monday or Tuesday. Noah is slamming IPAs somewhere.
Speaker 1:He is, so God only knows what he's up to. Helping David finish Nolans. I saw him on the Nolans. Yeah, yeah, I was like dude.
Speaker 2:Helping David punch that ticket.
Speaker 1:Get to Europe bro.
Speaker 2:Noah, we know you're not working right now. Get out of here, dude. Yeah, let's see yeah, max, and then I think that's everybody, yeah, oh, yeah, let's see yeah, max, and then I think that's everybody. Yeah, I think I ticked everybody off the list there, but yeah, I think I don't know. It would be nice to organize a run with the whole team for the last, the back 10 of the course, all of it. Like a lot of the hills are runnable, but that back 10 tends to get way more technical and there's a lot of parts of it where if you pre-run it you're going to be stoked. You did so. Hopefully we can. I don't know, that's going to be a little too late for me. Like it's a two hour. Like, if you're running that last 10 miles hard it's, you know, going to be hour 52 hours. You, you know like it's not an easy 10 miles.
Speaker 2:Jesus okay like yeah, like it's, it's pretty. So I don't think, I don't know, I don't know if we're gonna be able to get any runs in together unless they're flat, easy and chill, because every single part of this course, if you're going to do it a little bit of a trail rec here reconnaissance, like your minimum doing, you know 10 to 12 miles, so I'll probably. And then like long, 10, 12 miles, you know you're either doing four, almost 5,000 feet of climbing or you know 3,900, with a bunch of technical terrain or steep stuff. So it's like I don't know. Trying to check out the course the week of is going to be difficult. Um, I feel like it might contribute a little too much fatigue, uh, but I mean it could. It could also help with the mental side of things. So who am I to say what works best for everyone?
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, Interesting, interesting, um, all right, so I've got to ask you the question. One of the things I really appreciate and admire about you is that, just like the grand, you kind of like projected this in a lot of ways. Like you, it seems like you came out here very early. You learned every, a lot of. You learned pretty much everything possible about the course. It seems like you know most of the sections extremely well. Would you, would you agree with that? I mean, I like how people project stuff, because that sets you up for success. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I mean, I do love to do that. I think it works wonders from a mental standpoint, especially once you try to start putting into your head splits, timeframe, nutrition, where you're going to be, what you're going to do, how much energy you need, what's on the other side of this hill, um, and just have the ability to you know put. You know put a little extra gas on the pedal in certain places. Or you know, know you should let off in certain places. You know where to go all in and where to make up time. Um, I think there's a lot of. Yeah, personally, I love doing that with any course I can.
Speaker 2:Um, this one, like I said, I think that back 10, the final 10 miles is definitely, I would say, you know, if anything like the crux of the course, uh, everything else. Honestly, the first 18 miles of it, like it's kind of just like follow the flags and let it rip, like I don't really think it's that you know that important to have to be out here to check that out. Um, I think being mentally ready for it all, that's the most important part piece of it. Uh, know, knowing that, all right, cool, we're running down a 20 degree slope on a field of grass, um, or just kind of getting getting familiar with the terrain. You know, getting familiar with what type of rocky terrain it is, um, you know how big of lugs to wear. You know which shoes to wear? Um, like there's definitely you know which shoes to wear? Um, like there's definitely, you know a lot of little things. That kind of add up that I think can help out and save a lot of time.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I, I mean I love being able to recce all my courses, like I think it just works wonders from a mental point of view, and being able to see the course and you know visualize things before the race, and you know visualize things during the race. And you know visualize things during the race and just wrap your head around what you're up against and what you have left to do. You know it can be I mean, it's a double-edged sword. It can be.
Speaker 2:If you hit a wall early on, it could be extremely daunting, and then you're just like fuck, like I got, I still have to do that, like all right, damn. But at the other end of it it's like man, I feel really good. So I'm going to push this section, cause I know what's up ahead of me. Um, so I think you know, depending on where you're at in the race, it could be good, it could be bad. But you know the point is for it to be good and to work hard. So you know you kind of have to lean into that side of it, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. Um, this might be all right. I got to ask you this question. It's been a bumpy season for you a little bit, and do you put high expectations on this one to to to hit a home run, or is it more so just go out there and do my thing?
Speaker 2:Um, definitely, I mean definitely high expectations. I mean I'll be going into this one with, surprisingly, even though I've bombed every race this year Um, I, I'm pretty sure I know why and I have it figured out, and, um, if anything, that just gives me more confidence to really go for it. Um, so, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be pushing right off the gun and just, you know you, only you don't. How many chances do you have to line up at a world championship, Like if you're, if you're not rolling the dice and going for it, then why are you there? You know, like you may as well, you know, push all your chips in and you know, really let it rip. So that's my, my goal is to really let it rip.
Speaker 1:All right, All right, I like it. I like it. The uh, the stars and the stripes. What does it mean to you to represent team USA?
Speaker 2:Um, I mean shit, man, like, since I was 13 years old reading books on, you know, uh, you know once a runner. Um, man, like, since I was 13 years old reading books on you know, you know once a runner. You know all these legendary running lore books and, just like having that dream of you know, for some reason, when I was a kid, I'd always thought I would be, you know, racing like a 5k or 10k in the Olympics. You know reading about Prefontaine and you know reading about all of the different running legends and the lore. Like you know, I was always, you know, had those dreams, but, you know, little did I know it was slow as shit and there was no way I was going to be repping the red, white and blue in a 5k dude. Um, so, the fact that you know I found my niche and I know you know what I, what I am good and bad at, and having the ability to, you know I found my niche and I know you know what I, what I am good and bad at, and having the ability to, you know, go all in on it and still wear a team usa jersey like I don't know it's. It's pretty special I, you know, part of me was like, man, like I didn't get picked on resume spot. I didn't get. I didn't get picked because I got top three at Broken Arrow. I got picked on my resume. So there might be a crowd or people who are like, oh well, you maybe didn't deserve it. You were picked because of what you've done in the past, not what you've done now, and that's fine, I don't give a shit. I think it's even cooler to be picked on resume for what I have done and have the respect to be put on that too.
Speaker 2:Um, so I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, I'm I'm stoked to be able to wear a team USA, jersey and uh, you know, it's kind of a it's. It truly is a dream come true, which is why I'm like, well, fuck it man. Like we're going to roll the dice and we're we're going all in on this thing and uh, you know not gonna, you know not going to treat it like a race, that you know you're waiting, waiting to see if people drop back to you. It's like, no, I want to be, I want to be up there racing.
Speaker 2:Like I don't want, I don't want to rely on people to die up front and to come back to me Like I want to be there when they die. Like you know what I mean. Like I want to be there when someone realizes that they can't hold the pace anymore and they start to drop back. And that could be me and that's fine. Like that's part of racing and that's part of you know the whole mentality of putting it all out there. So yeah, that's that's my goal.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it. What do you think of this team? Do you guys think, from a team perspective? Obviously missing Ryan sucks, but with the gain of Max, that also brings a lot of experience. Yourself, eli, noah, you guys have a. I don't want to call you guys the dream team, but like it's a, it's a solid fucking team. Like you guys have the ability to go get a medal. Um, I, I is that, would you say. That's the expectation for for the from a team perspective.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%. I think it's an extremely strong team. I mean missing, missing Ryan and having Ryan be injured and not be able to uh, heal that I mean I think tor is posterior, yeah, post, yeah, so I mean that's like that sucks like. I love ryan. I think he's a great guy, he's a fantastic racer. He puts a lot of time and effort and dedication into all of this, and I mean the fact that he isn't sponsored yet just absolutely blows my mind like that's totally ridiculous. Um, it sucks to not have ryan out here, um, but at the same time, I think the rest of the team is all really strong guys as well.
Speaker 2:I think we have one of the. I mean, if you look at eli hemming, he is one of the best 50K runners in the entire world. David Sinclair typically has been beating Eli Hemmings Like. So between those two right off the bat, it's like all right, cool, like we got a pretty strong punch right there. You know, seth has a crazy engine. I think this course is going to suit him really well. A lot of the runnable climbs and Seth's been. You know, I've seen Seth run on some of the shale on the terrain over at the rut and he's very good at that as well, so I think Seth could have an awesome day. Noah Williams ran what was his time last year. It was like 2.45?
Speaker 1:It was pretty fast, yeah, 2.43, maybe even.
Speaker 2:You can fact check me on that one. But Noah's super strong, coming down from Leadville, he's a super tough dude, he's hungry, he's ready for it. And then we got Max to kind of just take the team captain role. And if you've been watching Max the last few years, captain role and like, if you've been watching max the last few years, he's been really leaning into the uh, really really leaning into the uh crap that's called orienteering, yeah, and pretty much everything he's been doing has been, you know, like technical, like totally weird shit that you know most of us aren't doing. So like his, his, his experience, strength and ability to totally navigate and crush that terrain is, you know, like it sucks to lose ryan.
Speaker 2:But I think the fact that we do have max's experience to fall back on like that's, that's pretty damn awesome, you know, and like I think it says a lot about becker that you know the one guy who is chosen to to replace him is like an absolute legend in us mountain running. So I don't know I I really I think our team makeup is solid. Uh, what the spanish and the italians are fucking strong. Uh, same as the french. Uh, the spanish team is definitely, I don't know, this is their, this is their turf, I mean, and those guys are, they're very strong, their lineup is badass, uh. So I think like, honestly, dude, I think we have to have, like we're gonna have to have three guys in the top 15 to win this thing and to get a gold medal, like I think it's going to be that tight up front, um, and it's kind of cool, like bringing back the whole college cross-country mentality, all this yeah like personally, like I'm not.
Speaker 2:I'm in it to run my own race. Like I care about my teammates and I care that they do. Well, I care, you know about, I care about my fellow US countrymen and I want them to kick ass. But at the end of the day, team tactics in a race like this we've all been doing all this and running our own races for so long. It would almost be a bad idea for us to start thinking like, hey guys, let's all do this and try to run this way. No, I think if everybody just runs their own race and is supportive of each other and, you know, has the extra mentality and boost of like I'm not just doing this for myself today, I'm doing this for all of these guys, even if we're not running together, I think that's enough, you know, have that extra oomph to hopefully get us in metal territory.
Speaker 1:Dude with your resume. You're a first bout hall of famer in the sport now which is kind of crazy to think about. No, dude, you're half, I mean. I would easily say, uh, you're a hall of famer. What would it mean to you for the resume to get doesn't matter, I mean gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal, like what would that do for you as far as like your career, like what would you like? How excited, um, and just like what would that be to put that on the list of the resume, if you will?
Speaker 2:I mean that would be awesome. I think that's more of like like goal versus process thing. You know, the process of it all, like the fact that I can even be here training for the race and be lining up for it and being in a place where I feel good about lining up for it and to be competitive, that's honestly enough for me. I'm just stoked to have the opportunity to be able to even do it and that's special in and of itself. Anything else is just gravy, you know, like anything else is just like hell. Yeah, but uh, but you know, uh, process over over the goal and the destination. Um, that would be awesome, that would be. You know, the. The dream was not.
Speaker 2:The dream has always been to wear the Jersey. You know the dream was never actually to win in the Jersey. The dream has been to represent the Jersey and the colors in the country, you know. So I mean that's that's already happened. So now everything else. That's why you know kind of have a bit of a maybe a little bit of a laissez-faire attitude with the race, like maybe it. You know I feel really strong, so race it kind of how I I used to, and you know kind of throw a little bit more of the you know intelligent racing if you will out the window like I'm not gonna, you know, and it would be really cool to add add a medal to the resume, but for me, the resume and being here is all I really need. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. What's next for you after this? Are you hanging out in Europe for a bit longer, or are you going somewhere else? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:No, dude, I got to go back for sentencing.
Speaker 1:That was not a gotcha question, by the way. I totally forgot about that.
Speaker 2:I know I know no dude way, I totally forgot about that. I know I know no dude. Uh, hopefully, hopefully we could get it moved. But I'm supposed to be back october 1st, which would suck, because if we do metal, then I have to miss the ceremony and I won't even be able to be there, which is another reason why I'm like, ah, like, whatever, like I guess you know, like, for me, just being here is the, is the metal, um, so I may have to totally skip it if that happens. But as of right now, I have to be in a courtroom in jackson hole on october 1st, um, and then kodiak, 100k. Okay, all right, all right. So, dude, kodiak, I forgot.
Speaker 1:Francesco told me about kodiak. Okay, sweet dude, that'll be fun, that'll be. Kodiak is a dope race. You get to hang out with Chad Hall. That'll be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. No, I'd be stoked. I don't think we've ever raced, so I mean he'd smoke my ass in anything you know, 50k and under, I think, especially on those trails. But I don, I could actually, you know, go up against them and see what happens but it'll be a nice, it'll be a nice cherry on top for the season.
Speaker 1:You know, nice, nice, I do. I'd love to hear it, man. Um, dude, wish you the best of luck. I hope you have an amazing race, man. I hope it. I hope it's the a beautiful cap on the season and, uh, you know, is it meets your expectations and you have a great day out there.
Speaker 2:Thanks, man. Yeah, I'm stoked. Thanks for thanks for having me on again and stoked to uh hear what everybody else has to say about this race.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming on. Oh, absolutely Dude. It's going to be fun. Appreciate it oh yeah, thank you. We'll see you next time.
