The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
Anna Gibson & Cam Smith - Pre 2025 World Trail Championship Interview
Cam Smith and Anna Gibson join the podcast from Italy where they're juggling an extraordinary athletic challenge. Currently training with the USA Skimo team, both athletes are preparing to represent Team USA in dual events at the upcoming Mountain Running World Championships in Spain.
The conversation offers a fascinating glimpse into their Italian training camp and the unique dynamics of preparing for two completely different mountain disciplines simultaneously. Anna reveals her deep skiing background—"It's definitely the original sport for me"—explaining how her lifelong passion for skiing has naturally evolved into competitive ski mountaineering as the sport heads toward its Olympic debut. Meanwhile, Cam shares insights about the technical challenges of mastering quick transitions and equipment changes essential to skimo racing.
What makes this episode particularly compelling is the candid discussion about team dynamics within USA Trail Running. Cam details his efforts to foster camaraderie through a pre-Worlds training camp in Colorado, where the team tackled challenging 14,000-foot peaks together. "This exact group will never be together again as teammates," Smith reflects, highlighting the fleeting nature of these special team configurations and the importance of maximizing every moment.
The most poignant segment comes when Anna discusses her decision to postpone her Grand Teton FKT attempt after rolling her ankle before Sierre-Zinal. Her thoughtful explanation reveals the complex calculus elite athletes must navigate when balancing personal goals against team responsibilities. The conversation concludes with a passionate discussion about anti-doping in trail running and the athletes' hopes for the sport's future, including potential Olympic inclusion.
Whether you're a mountain sports enthusiast or simply fascinated by elite athlete mindsets, this episode offers remarkable insights into the dedication, versatility, and thoughtful decision-making required at the highest levels of endurance sports. Follow along as Cam and Anna head to Worlds to represent Team USA in this pivotal moment for American mountain running!
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It's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are live. Cam Smith, ana Gibson. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going guys?
Speaker 3:Thanks we're doing good. Hey, james, great. Yeah, fun to have a triple combo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I don't do too many of these. I'm going to figure out how to divvy up the questions and stuff like that. It should be kind of fun. First off, cam, happy 30th birthday dude. Welcome to the welcome to. Uh, yeah, we got to give a round of applause. It's a pretty exciting for you. Cool stuff.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you, yeah, joining the club yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, all right, so, guys, you, but you're over there now. So maybe let's talk about, like, how long you guys have been over there, what you've been getting up to so far. It sounds like you've been having a ton of fun. Maybe talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3:I feel like you should explain what's happening right now.
Speaker 2:All right. Yeah, cam and I have been in Italy for a couple of days. We're with the USA Schemo team, which has been super fun. Cam is a veteran and has convinced me that Schemo is super fun greatest thing. So I am here with the team as well now, which has been really great and I'm learning a lot. But, yeah, we've got a great crew. There's like eight athletes over here. We trained up on the Stelvio, on the glacier, on snow, for a few days and then now we're in the Dolomites, in a town, in a town called San Martino de Castroza, just doing some like dry land training and, um, yeah, just running, getting ready for worlds.
Speaker 1:So cool. When are you guys headed over to? Uh, kind of Frank.
Speaker 3:So we'll both go down on the 21st, on Sunday, and then the uphill race is Thursday, so we have like four days before racing but we're already in the same time zone just chilling up here and then it'll be like a two hour flight to get from Venice down to Barcelona. So that was kind of the idea is the ski camp is giving us a little time to get over jet lag and run some Euro trails and kind of get all those kinks out and like it's sort of a hybrid thing of obviously getting ready for the ski season, but it's also sort of perfect prep for a racing worlds next week. So yeah, it all kind of came together.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. This one's for you. I had no idea you were like doing the ski mode thing. This is so cool Surprise, did you? Are you I mean I, are you like an avid skier as well and have like grown up doing it Like? How did you like? What's your background with skiing? I'm just so curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I am a big skier. Um, it's definitely like the, the original sport for me. Um, both my parents are big ski bums and that was kind of just the culture that I was brought up in. Um, and then, competitively, I raced downhill for a long time. Um, I switched over to Nordic in high school. So I have like a background in both parts of the skimo race essentially, and then I've just been like a back country skier for the last few years, like throughout all the winters, and yeah, I mean, it's basically just been always a part of my life. So it feels like a very natural transition. But I've only done one skimo race up to this point. It was like two years ago. So it's kind of like a new flavor of of an old, an old passion of mine so cool.
Speaker 1:Well, that's, I can't wait to follow along your your schema season this year. It'll be awesome. I feel like we should.
Speaker 3:I feel like we should talk real quick too about kind of like the why and how of on a being way into schema all of a sudden is obviously this is the like. This is the olympic winter coming up and the qualification process comes down to one more race in december, and so anna and I were talking at broken arrow about how I've always felt a lot of people always felt like she's the perfect fit for the sport of like having that speed and obviously, like everyone sees how she races uphill in the summer and having such an awesome ski background, which now that we've seen her on snow checks out and is legit, uh, and so we're just like bringing her into the fold to just like add some more athletes to the team and like it's never a bad idea to have more talent, and just kind of, yeah, bringing her in with this like pre-olympic push. So, um, yeah, that's yeah, that's the idea is?
Speaker 1:I mean, has it crossed your, your mind to like, you know, to like, do you? Do you want to be an Olympian? Like, is that, like, like. How does that gel with you?
Speaker 2:I mean, heck, yeah, like who would say no to that question? You know, like it definitely is something that's on all of our minds, but also like that's that's like the golden thing that could happen with this journey for me right now, but like it's not the reason necessarily why I'm doing it. Like it's just because like kind of instigated like happening right now, um, with the schema thing, like I definitely think I would have found this no matter what and like at some point here pretty soon. But, um, it's definitely like put the hammer down a lot. It's like okay, like we're going to train, we're going to like figure out how to do this really fast, like got to practice my transitions and like get dialed. Um, so it's definitely accelerated the process, yeah.
Speaker 1:So cool. And this is this is the technical question I was going to go to. Next is how hard is it to learn, like how to be really quick at those transitions, like is it? Is it pretty easy or is learning curve?
Speaker 2:Uh, it's definitely like kind of a steep learning curve. Like I don't. I didn't really know what I was doing when I first started trying to be fast, and then, like going to these camps, like we have a great team coach and like you know other great athletes on the team who are all really good, and so like I've had a lot of coaching and a lot of like direction, and then it got way easier. Once I realized, okay, that's what I'm trying to do, that's what it's supposed to look like. Here's little tips and tricks to make these things fast.
Speaker 2:So then I felt like I like, just you know, my ability like skyrocketed and now it's just a matter of like the consistency. Like every single time I do the same transition, trying to like hit a really consistent time, cause, like right now, I'm kind of like I'll nail it sometimes and then I'll totally fail others and it'll be like fumbling. So it's definitely a learning curve, but it's cool. Doing a sport, that's like a skill thing. Like I feel like running you know, you just you don't improve that fast Like it's a very like it's a thing that you like have to train day in, day out and you like see these slow gains, whereas, like with the schema transitions, it's like the gains are slow but they're also like happening, like week to week and you can really see it, which is really fun.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I well, I'm so excited to see, like, how quickly you you catch on and how you develop in it over the next few months, or even like the next six months or seven months, so it's going to be awesome to follow along.
Speaker 3:So thanks, very cool All right, let's talk.
Speaker 1:Let's talk worlds. This is a very unique opportunity for both you guys because you guys are both on two teams. What does that feel like? Is there more? And you can answer this one at a time. I think the the big question here is are you putting more emphasis on one thing versus another, like, how does that work for you both?
Speaker 3:definitely not like I'm. I'm fully hyped for both races and and giving both races equal attention and and giving both races equal attention and intent with training and obviously once the gun goes off, it's 100% in both, which is really nice that we have the uphill first and a few days before, because nothing about spending yourself on that course is going to do anything harmful for Sunday. But yeah, so equally stoked for both. For sure the uphill feels a little closer to me just because it's happening first, like I keep thinking about, like uphill, and then, when that's passed, it's gonna like take so much pressure off for sunday and like help the classic or like help performing in the classic, just since like a race has already happened. But because it's happening earlier and because I think I have a better chance of like a breakout run in the uphill, that's like maybe from that perspective, more exciting but like, definitely equally like intentioned and focused for both cool.
Speaker 2:I feel like I couldn't I couldn't have said that better, like I think I feel the same way, um, and I think it's just like it's cool to be able to have two races and two kind of opportunities, because it feels like I don't have all my eggs in one basket. I think that, yeah, it's just going to be really exciting and super hype on Thursday with the vertical and we'll see what happens, but just knowing that there's another one just kind of takes all the pressure off.
Speaker 3:It's just like two opportunities to perform and have a good time this is like if you like smash it in the uphill, then you're going to be like super pumped to race again in the classic. And if you have a poor race in the uphill, you're going to be like super motivated to turn around in the classic exactly yeah, I love you can't go.
Speaker 1:yeah, kim, one of the things that uh stuck out to me in a previous conversation we had had was going into this schemo year because it's the Olympic selection year. You had said to me you wanted to throw yourself in as many high competition, like high octane competitions, as possible. Really, this is as high as it gets for trail running, would you? Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3:Would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean like just thinking about all those uniforms coming together and like the hype on the start line and just like seeing athletes literally from all over the world and like yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's going to be super that pressure cooker and get comfortable being in those super yeah, high, high stress, high octane, high uh pressure situations and learn how to perform your best in those. So yeah, I'm hyped and that's um yeah, leading into skemo season. But, like when I'm at running worlds, like I'm 100 a runner, you know like I'm fully focused on Thursday and then I'm 100% a runner. You know like I'm fully focused on Thursday and then I'm fully focused on Sunday and then on Sunday afternoon I'm fully focused on skiing.
Speaker 1:I want to take this back a little bit to Broken Arrow and I'm going to start with Anna Anna, you and I had a conversation before Broken Arrow and I asked you something along the lines of like how special would it be and this was a competition question Like how special would it have been not just to get one back on Joyce, having beaten you in the previous year, but also win the damn thing and qualify, you know, for the vertical? And you gave an amazing answer, but I didn't get to talk to you after the fact. I'm very curious, like how, how did that feel and how sweet was that victory?
Speaker 2:um, I mean, it was awesome, like everything about that race at broken arrow was just like so fun and um, I honestly I think that like the bigger thing for me on that day was not like my performance, but just like seeing the three other women that qualified for team usa, with me all in tears and just like in absolute disbelief of what they had just accomplished. Like qualifying for their first world teams was just like so cool and so I feel like as like a team, it felt like a team victory in that moment, even though like that was literally us just becoming team USA vertical, and like also just to do it with like two of my Brooks teammates, with Sydney Peterson and Hillary Allen, like that was just so cool. So it didn't turn out like I don't know, it didn't it? Just it didn't feel like an individual performance, I guess.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Cam broken arrow question as well. Mason told me that on the 23 K start line you had kind of pulled you kind of pulled the guys aside. I think it was yourself, Taylor and Mason, and you're like this is our first this is our first opportunity as team usa to show up.
Speaker 1:Can you, can you talk a little bit about the tactics that played out through that race and how you guys kind of work together a little bit, um, as far as making moves and covering, and just like what your mentality was on that day?
Speaker 3:yeah, dude, that that kind of gave me chills. You're bringing it back up. That was. That was a super special moment with us like. So it was, yeah, me, taylor, taylor and Mason racing the 23K Cause David Norris had done the 46 the day before. And so we like do the whole golden trail, like wave at the camera thing and jog up to the start line. And then there's a couple more minutes before the gun goes off and we like gotten a quick huddle. The three of us like yo, this is, yeah, exactly our first chance to.
Speaker 3:I think what we talked about was show everyone else what we can do. So it's like we want to show right now that when we get to the World's Classic three months later, that we're like the team to beat and we're here to make noise and crush it, you know. And so then the gun goes off and it ended up. The three of us were sort of running in a bit of a train for a while, which was super sick and like encouraging each other as we were passing each other and it sort of felt like the beginning of our team was, yeah, like happening in that moment. So it was super cool to race with each other and then we finished on one order too, which is really exciting. And, yeah, it's just like we talked about, like we wanted to show what we can do, uh, for the coming classic race at worlds and, um, yeah, now we actually get to do it in just a few days, so, super pumped, very cool.
Speaker 1:Um Kim, one of the things that impressed me about you and it seems like a lot of you you have taken and shown a lot of really strong leadership just with being able to put these like a camp together and have a lot of um. I think a lot of folks both on the vertical, on the mountain, classic teams, everybody kind of come together in Buena Vista for this camp that you put together. Can you talk a little bit about that and how special of a moment that was for everyone?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think like every time something like this has happened like qualifying for a team or getting these opportunities I just always remind myself that you never know if something like this is ever going to happen again.
Speaker 3:It's just like I like, even if people make more teams or the next Joe Gray's out there somewhere that's going to do this every year for 20 years like this exact group will never be together again as teammates, and so this is our only chance to have this group together and be this team and have this performance and go to this world championships, and so I just want to like squeeze every bit out of that that we can, and so like let's spend some time as a team, let's get hyped together, let's like have some team camaraderie, let's push each other on an actual training run.
Speaker 3:Like it's not like we got together and just like played dominoes for a weekend, like we like ran a bunch of peaks and kind of a lot of us got crushed and it was awesome. And, yes, I'm just like these are really, really special opportunities and I'm just trying to make the most of it myself, and that means kind of bringing everyone together and we had so much fun, um, yeah, at that weekend and just getting to know each other and laughing and training and just made me so much more excited for for worlds.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was very special. Can you, can you go in a little bit more on like some of the yeah I heard from? I think it was Sydney who told me you guys did Harvard and Columbia or something like that. Like what were the training runs all about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we got together on Friday night and both nights we cooked at Tyler's family's house, which was awesome. So we were cooking our meals together, eating together. And, yeah, we woke up Saturday and then went up to do Harvard and Columbia. So two of the 14ers and a few people had done other 14ers the day before and so not everyone was together the whole time. We kind of branched off a little bit, which was kind of a nice route, because then everyone could do it kind of as much or as little as they wanted and yeah, just like rolled up to some peaks together. And then the coolest thing was it was sort of like a mountain running team thing. But we know that Noah Williams just lived right up the road and so he pulled up with a couple other super strong runners of his friends that were all getting together and so we had like the deepest group run I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2:It was like 15 people, 15 like elite trail runners running down the trail together and it was just like crazy. It was so cool. It felt like being on like a college team again, like total throwback. It was so cool. It felt like being on like a college team again like totally total throwback.
Speaker 3:It was really cool and I I felt kind of bad because we were like mowing down hikers and runners as a group of like 15. It's like the slowest person in the group was like a pro runner and so I felt really bad if people didn't like recognize that that was the case, that this like group of 15 just like rolled up on him like a train because it was, yeah, a crazy group and so, yeah, like did a super solid run, which was like, yeah, fun because it was sort of normal for some people, and then, like tyler comes from like a crushing roads and track background was like, oh, this is the longest run time-wise of my life, like by an hour.
Speaker 3:And we ran for like four and a half hours, yeah, and so it was sick that like whoa, like this was a huge day for Tyler and it was like, yeah, that way for a lot of us and just like, yeah, kind of a cool way to push each other and, on top of that, like just be in an awesome wilderness area and on some mountains and just have a good time together.
Speaker 1:That's so cool and I think it's just so important. For you know, I think on paper it's easy to look at both the women's and men's mountain classic team, as well as the vertical teams, and say like these are teams that have a great opportunity to metal. But I think one of the things that's just so important is like also just building that camaraderie, getting to know one another and, like you said, like having this specific team in this specific time period.
Speaker 3:It's not going to happen again, so you might as well enjoy it and make it very special and really just develop relationships as well, which is so cool totally yeah, and like that, like when you feel like you're a part of a team and like the race is on the line, like and you're maybe not where you thought you'd be, or you are where you thought you'd be, and things just hurt really, really bad. But you know like I need to make this pass because my teammates are counting on me, like it's just going to make us stronger, so we're hyped All right, I want to shift gears a little bit on this question's for you.
Speaker 1:I got to get into series and all you had an amazing performance eighth place in series at all um, we didn't get a chance to kind of recap it, so I want to talk to you about that performance, what that meant to you and just um, yeah, what it meant to you and just where you were, uh, confidence wise, after that yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It was kind experience actually. Like I look back on the series and all and I will tell you that's like, I think, mentally, the hardest race I've run all year, and like I didn't come off of it like feeling supremely confident or anything like that. Like I had a really hard day and like I just don't think that the paper really shows that I like rolled my ankle super hard, like the hardest I've ever rolled it six days before series and all, and I flew over to Europe with like a balloon of an ankle it was literally the size of my calf and I was like you know, by any means, like I should not have raced, probably. But I like somehow turned a corner just in time, like decided it was worth it and like I don't know, I just I thought I should do it. So then I get on the line and like things were going fine, but I like had also known what my splits were from last year at Sears and all, and so like I start running this race, my ankles kind of bothering me, it's like a little in my head. I'm like okay, I like really just can't roll it again. And then like I see my first split, which is like an hour into the race, and I was like five minutes back from where I was in 2024.
Speaker 2:Like, granted, like 2024, I had a great race there, like that was probably the best race of my year and so I knew that.
Speaker 2:But I was also like dang, like I think I'm way fitter than that, like all my results this year would would seem to say that I should be running like five minutes faster than 2024 and not five minutes slower.
Speaker 2:So I kind of like mentally, just like freaked out and I, um, yeah, it was just really challenging to like stay positive and keep running through that and I just had to put my head down and be like okay, like maybe today's just not my day, but like I'm still going to try and like just enjoy this experience Like series and all is just a really cool race.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I kind of just like kept grinding and somehow, like by the end of the race I had like made up those five minutes and gotten three minutes faster and so, like I still ran faster than last year, even though the race was deeper and I was three places back from where I finished. So it was just kind of like, yeah, it felt like just one of those races where, like I crossed the finish line, I was like I am honestly just like exhausted and that was like one of the hardest things I've ever done. Like it just felt really difficult to like stay positive and, yeah, the the like eighth place result and three minutes faster than last year is like it's really good, I know that, but it just didn't feel like everything I was capable of, cause I was just like very consumed by like questioning my pacing and my fitness and my ankle and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I feel like that's such a hardened race to nail, like that's probably the heart, one of the hardest races to nail, it seems like it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean a lot of people have like catastrophic blowups and like crazy things happen to them and you know, you're like running and you're like seeing your friends like curled up on the side of the course like puking and stuff and just like mentally being like strong through all of that and the heat and like yeah, there's just so much going on, there's so much that can go wrong.
Speaker 1:I was talking to someone I can't remember who it was. Someone got heat exhaustion, like a lot of people get like heat exhaustion at this one. Why did they start that race in the like it's like?
Speaker 2:it started at 11 in the morning. It's like crazy. Yeah, it is really wild. I don't know why they do that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely nuts. Um, we'll have to. I definitely want to talk more on it at some point, but for the sake of time, I do want to get into one more thing.
Speaker 2:I heard through the grapevine that you were considering doing the grand this year um, yeah, I was, and I don't know, I think I I'm like, how do I go into this on a podcast? Um, yeah, I guess, like I don't know, I think a big part of it for me deciding not to do it was the ankle. Like knowing that I had qualified for two races at worlds was like a key person of this team um, both of the teams going over to Spain. Um, and knowing that, like, if I rolled my ankle again running down the grand, which is very technical like, and just very rocky up at the top, like I don't know, I think it could have been a season ender for me and I just like really needed to like prioritize world. So I think that was like the biggest thing on my mind.
Speaker 2:Like I was super set that I was going to do the Grand this year.
Speaker 2:Like it's in my backyard, it's like literally the mountain I've been looking up at my entire life and like I'm itching to do it, but it just wasn't the right timing. Um, and I think, on top of that, just like I don't know, trying to grapple with like my why for like why that mountain is so important to me, um, and knowing there's just been a lot of hype and buzz around it, like I don't want that. Why to like get confused with, like, the publicity or um, yeah, any of that, like for me it's like I honestly wish I could go do it and like it be in a complete silo and like nobody even know, um, and I think, like I don't know it, just the timing, just on all fronts, like emotionally and physically, just like did not feel right for me this year and um, yeah, I'm just focused on worlds, but it's definitely something that I will do in the future oh, I really appreciate that candid answer and, uh, yeah, I definitely hope to hope to hear you go after it next year, in a different year.
Speaker 1:So, um, all right, I want to shift gears back to worlds. This is a question for both you guys. Um, whoever wants to answer first, go for it. It's just. This is an interesting type of squad we're sending, in the sense where, like, we really have opportunities here for, like, not just high expectations but for medals, it seems like, with the amount of talent that are on these teams, what are your personal expectations and what would it mean to you to get a medal at these races or one of these races?
Speaker 3:Oh boy races, oh boy like. So I raced the uphill at thailand and we were going in with me and joe and dan and three score. So it was going to be all of us. And we were talking the night before like man, like we gotta, let's go for this. We got a strong team like this is awesome. And pretty much all three of us had like good but not great days and we were, I think, fourth or fifth overall and it's sort of like it stuck with me like that was three years ago and I just remember like being disappointed that we didn't get it done as a team with our group and then being like so excited for all the other teams.
Speaker 3:Like everyone remembers, like the team visor men's long distance trail with like Adam first overall and then all the other boys, like hyping each other up on like the visor thing and then winning like the team gold too. And I was like man, like that's so sick and it just like stuck with me of like like yeah, more so than I wanted the individual result, like it'd be sick to like win as a group and then I missed Innsbruck with my ACL and everything, and then this is my, my next chance. And so, like, more than anything, honestly, like I'm thinking about those team results, like it was just so cool to watch everyone be hyped. And there were other teams that um, that won a bunch of medals too, like that's just one of the examples. But like I'm I have these two shots with these two groups to like get it done together and like that's kind of what I'm focused on and I mean that's going to lead to like me racing 1000 all out and doing my best. Like we'll see where the result shakes out from there.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I'm just kind of hyped to see how both the teams do and I also know, like in the back of my head, that there isn't, there's an overall for the whole week, like which nation and it's men and women, and like, looking across the board, like I cannot see how we can't smash it with all. Is that eight races? Yeah, eight races? No, with the juniors too, it's ten. So, yeah, I can't get that out of my mind of where we have this opportunity as a whole group. So, yeah, I'm not really thinking about I need to be top this. I need to run this time. I just kind of want to be a part of I need to run this time, like I just kind of, yeah, I want to be a part of good teams.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 3:Anna.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I don't know, cam and I ran up a really cool mountain this morning and we were just like going absolutely crazy because we're like in the Dolomites, which I've never run in before, and it was just like incredible and I don't know it.
Speaker 2:Just we were like reflecting on this kind of just saying like honestly, like whatever happens, it's just like an opportunity to move forward and like an open door, but like if you don't do well, it's not like it sets you back, and like I think that every race is like that, but sometimes it's hard to see it, and like those things are just more obvious when you're like out on a heads clear and you're, like you know, not stressed about life.
Speaker 2:And I think like I just need to like carry that energy into, like arriving in Spain and, like you know, as things start to get more hype, like for me it really like this is my first world championships. This is my first like I mean I guess I raced for Team USA um at Challenge Stelina, but like this is my first, yeah, my first world, my first like real Team USA experience, and I honestly just want to like learn some stuff and have a really good time and I'm not at all focused on like, yeah, this place, that place, like whatever happens, is great and I have my sights set high, like I know what I'm capable of. But if I don't do it this time, it doesn't mean that I'm not capable of it. It just means that I have to try again and like, hopefully I'll have that opportunity.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2:I want to shift gears a little bit.
Speaker 1:I um, this is something we kind of talked about offline and something I don't know like in the nine minutes that we have left. It's not something we can fully address in a podcast, but I did want to bring up to you guys. Um is talking about the anti-doping conversation. Um, I know that's something, anna, that you had kind of put some stuff on Instagram and, cam, you were pretty vocal as well regarding it. I just I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts. Maybe around you know, getting closer to you know, seeing if we get an out-of-testing season pool and kind of how you feel about this whole thing.
Speaker 3:Like I said, there's no way we're going to tackle this in nine minutes, but I'm just just some resounding thoughts there I'm curious on yeah, I mean, like the I'm just so adamant about it needs to be out of season, like I don't know if you could hear, like 90 seconds ago, an alarm going off is my daily alarm to like oh, am I where I'm supposed to be so that drug testers can find me? So sorry, my alarm went off.
Speaker 3:But it's like and I've only been in the pool a few months, so it's not like I have this like high horse to stand on.
Speaker 2:And this is because of Schemo. So Schemo does out-of-competition testing, which trail running does not. Was not, yeah, yeah and it's like it.
Speaker 3:It is really hard to process that. The like if someone wanted to dope and trail running, they don't have that much of a barrier. Like if you know, like I have a chance of getting tested at xyz race. Like there's all this talk about like oh, this race has testing or yeah, whatever. But like it's oftentimes two random people in the top 10 and like questionable testing methods and they can do whatever they want or they can just skip the race right.
Speaker 3:Like if they have something in their system and so just like knowing that the opportunities out there is like really hard to process. And like you have to put it out of your mind as an athlete. Like you can't be training or racing and be like, oh, this person probably is dirty, this person's probably dirty, I really got this place. Like that would ruin you as an athlete and make it so not fun and also kill your motivation. So like you have to get it out of your head when you're doing your job. But like it's just it's really painful to know that the opportunity is out there for people.
Speaker 2:Like until we get better about this yeah, I mean, I think I just had, like I't know, I had a very chaotic reaction to the news a couple weeks ago or, however, I don't even remember a week or two ago. Like, at first I was like just I don't know, like in shock, I guess, and like then also, it was just like I guess I shouldn't be that surprised, and then, just like I don't know, angry, and then, just like I don't know, angry, and then sad, like I remember being sad for like most of the rest of the day. Once all the initial like reaction wore off, I was just kind of like I don't even really know what to do with this information. Like, and I think I'm at a point now where, like I just think that the most important thing is that we start out a competition testing pool. Like that is so, so necessary and I think that, like I don't know all the particulars of how these things normally work in other sports, but like I mean, usa track and field does substantially more testing Um, there is an out of competition pool. Like I don't know why trail doesn't have that, Obviously, you know a lot of other sports do it, and so modeling it after that makes a ton of sense to me and, um, I also think like just the biggest reflection that I've come to is, like I don't know, kind of just like a sense of peace, of being like okay, like the sport has gotten big enough now it's developed enough, there's enough, like you know, financial opportunity and sponsorship opportunity and all that.
Speaker 2:That, like doping, is something that other people might do to like try and get to the top. But like I feel fortunate to have like great support. I have, you know, a community of people who are all like supporting me, rooting me on, like like stable sponsors. All of that and it's just like I don't know it doesn't change the game for me, like knowing that other people might try to cheat the system, it feels more like they're cheating themselves than cheating me because, like I don't know, the point of sport is like to try to be your best and see where that puts you in the world, like it's not to just like be at the top. Like that, to me, isn't the point. So I don't know, I think I've just kind of like had to come to terms with that as this being like the first time I've ever felt, like personally, like affected by a positive doping test of another athlete.
Speaker 3:I think like anyone could listen to what Anna just said and like get a lot of inspiration for like continuing to compete and like pursue dreams in this sport, regardless of what's going on, and like the other layer to me is like what Ana just said is gold, but also I have trust, not in the system to like eradicate doping as it is right now, but I do trust that the truth is going to come out.
Speaker 3:Like it might be five years, 10 years, decades down the line, but like anyone cheating has people helping them, or like it's part of teams there's doctors. Like someone supplied the drug, whatever drug it is, somehow, and so like it might be a long way down the line and like definitely, if you like, like you're, we're something still being taken away from athletes. When something's someone's winning dirty right now, like being awarded a medal retroactively is like so far from winning something, like that's still a shame and it's lost, but like knowing in my heart that, like people will face the music one day, it gives me a little bit of peace, like even if they're still stealing right now do you.
Speaker 1:It's just so much emotions like wrapped up in it. I I just have, like a a question, related more so to, I don't know, conversations that you might have had with others in the sport or decision makers in the sport. Like what can we do? Like what, what is available, not just as athletes but just folks in the sport? Like is there are we any closer to be being able to getting an out of season pool or being able to at least advocate for one, or like getting closer to that? Like, is there any opportunity for that? Like how can we be voices to push that forward?
Speaker 3:I mean, we were just like spitballing a couple days ago on a run. Like it's super expensive and it's hard to do, but like the infrastructure for being able to enter your whereabouts exists and is simple and easy. Like there's a usopc system and there's a international system so athlete connect and atoms respectively. Like that software is out there and is accessible. It's just so expensive. Like if we can just start somewhere where, like the thing that makes it expensive is the testing, so maybe it's really infrequent, but like at least the threat is there that you can be found at any given time. Like maybe that's a starting point and then, as more money comes in, we can just increase the frequency. But like we have to get the ball rolling and get it started somehow.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I don't know exactly how that here's what I think here's what I've landed on as my easiest solution is that we take trail running to the olympics and then people will care and there will be money to do all this testing and like, yeah, country federations will care and like want their athletes to be clean, like I think that that to me, I've realized, is like one of the biggest turning points for a lot of sports is that, like, once it becomes an Olympic thing, there is more drug testing inherently and like I don't know, it also would just be sick of children in the Olympics. So that's, that's my pitch.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, I like it. I like it. I think it's a good spot to stop on, guys, thank you.
Speaker 3:James, your eyes just lit up of like. Here's the next. Like 10 podcasts we're going to go. There's so many Olympics we're going to go for.
Speaker 1:So many conversations around it.
Speaker 3:It's a and it.
Speaker 1:You know, I've brought it up to a lot of people Like like, what do you? You know, like I've always asked folks like what they think on it and it's just a yeah, it's, it's, it's all good stuff there.
Speaker 2:So guys, uh.
Speaker 1:I want to wish you the absolute best of luck. I hope you have amazing days out that you want it to be, I hope it's super special for you and yeah, yeah, I really appreciate your time and cheering you guys on. Thank you so much. Thank you, thanks for having us. Thanks, james. No-transcript.
