The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#123 - Ben Robinson
What if the best prep for a world-stage 50K isn’t altitude at all—but rock, root, and relentless decision-making? That’s the case Ben Robinson makes as we dive into his Grindstone 50K win, an OCC qualifier that doubled as redemption after a brutal DNF during a rabies vaccine saga the year before. From Pennsylvania’s Roxylvania series to Alaska’s Mount Marathon chaos, Ben maps a season where the Northeast’s technical terrain becomes a training edge, not a compromise, and where joy beats pressure as a performance tool.
We trace Ben’s arc from Lock Haven long runs to short-trail evangelist, race director, and community builder. He breaks down what makes PA special—Heiner’s culture, Boulder Beast’s car-sized rocks, and Miller Mountain’s steep, clean design—then gets specific about permitting, landowner trust, and why a cookout can be the most important gear choice of race day. We go deep on Mount Marathon strategy (cliffs vs roots), how to commit on snowfields and scree without blinking, and why downhill skill is often the true separator. He explains the switch from pro-contract pressure to free agency freedom, how self-coaching lets him fit training around a full-time job and board roles, and how rebuilding his why—love of the sport, service to others, growth through difficulty—made him faster.
We also zoom out. Cirque Series growth in the Northeast? Good for the sport when courses stay honest. UTMB structure vs the Olympics? Keep the edges sharp and the terrain real. World Championships takeaways? Technical venues reveal depth; surprise performances are a feature, not a bug. Ben’s near-term path points to OCC, a Javelina 100 experiment, and a Skyrunner Series return, plus bucket-list aims like Transvulcania and Western States—not as résumé items but as pilgrimages worth the work.
If you’re into East Coast grit, skyrunning energy, and practical insight on training, race directing, and building a life that can hold it all, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a friend who loves steep stuff, and leave a quick rating or review to help more runners find the show.
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Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello, and today I'm so excited to welcome Ben Robinson on for a chat. Ben, by way of Northeast Pennsylvania, came on the pod fresh off of his win at the Grindstone 50K just a few weeks back. In this episode, we talk about a lot of stuff. Ben's lived a lot of lives in the sport, but he's also a very influential and important figure, not just in his running community, but in the running community as a whole. Ben's a race director, an athlete. He gives back to his community through volunteering on different boards, and he's just very active, which I can really appreciate and admire. Ben and I got deep into the skyrunning scene across the United States, or actually really across the world, and why we could use something like that in the United States. We talked about the Pennsylvania running scene, which is kind of neat, talked about the technicality, the Northeast, just why the Northeast is uh kind of so important. Um we got into his racing experience and what he's been uh really enjoying as of late. Ben's been all over the world racing, but we talked about some of his favorite races. Um this past year he competed in Mount Marathon, and we got deep into that, his experience there and why he'll go back. Um did talk a lot about Grindstone and his win there. Um and yeah, it was just a really exciting episode. Talked a lot about Ben's background and uh his future in the sport and what he wants to do with it. So without further ado, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Really want to thank Ben for coming on. Very important member of the community and uh someone I admire. So without further ado, Ben Robinson. Ben Robinson, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? Nice, thank you very much. It's going well.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, dude. I'm so excited to have a conversation. Like, first off, I'm I'm just a giant fan of East Coast trail running. Like, I love the East Coast. I'm originally from the East Coast, so it's got a special place in my heart. So anytime I can have a East Coast trailrunner on the podcast, uh, it always uh it's always special. So thanks for coming on, dude. Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. It's definitely a special place. It's so unique with the terrain. Um, every every spot along the East Coast is different for their terrain. So um, yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about East Coast. Yeah, let's do it, dude. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_02:So maybe maybe for the audience uh that might not be familiar with you, maybe maybe give me like the five-minute elevator pitch. Where you're from, because I know you you went to school pretty close in Lockhaven. So give me the college spiel as well about your running in college and and we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah. So I'm from a little town called Tunkanic. Um, has about 2,000 people. It's northeast Pennsylvania. Um, I started running about 14 years old, ninth grade. Um, I played football, basketball, baseball, and was like, you know, I want to try something else. So I tried running and uh I really loved the people, but I was really bad at it, and uh it just worked out that um I I stuck with it and and um I just really fell in love with it. So uh did did high school cross-country track. Like you said, I went to Lockhaven University um where I continued to run and uh on the weekends I would go out and run uh generally by myself, my long runs in the woods. And uh coach, I don't think was uh he loved that idea because I was basically tracking cross-country, but I did it and it was so much fun. Um but I really fell in love with trail running after college. I moved to um Park City, Utah, um, which is just insane, and uh the most perfect place to start really liking the sport. Um and after that I lived in Boulder, Colorado for a bit with uh Andy Wacker and and uh oh my god, you lived with Andy too?
SPEAKER_02:I feel like everybody in this sport or that's been on a podcast has been a roommate of Andy's at one point.
SPEAKER_00:That's crazy. I've heard that, yes. It was it was awesome, and yeah, uh Andy does have a lot of a lot of people in and out of there. So uh uh there was a lot of good people, especially like Matt, my friend Matt. Uh I took Matt Daniels' room when he moved out. Uh so we we just missed each other there. But yeah, I I moved out to Park City to start a uh a business uh to help people post-collegiately train for like it was like a group to train for like a next Olympic cycle, and uh that didn't work out, so I I moved back home and then I tried to start two more businesses and they both didn't work out. I just love I love trying new things and seeing what works, and um, so that's kind of a little bit about me. I just love trying new things and and sticking my neck out there. Dude, I love it.
SPEAKER_02:How did you so how did you find yourself in Boulder then? Was it more so business-wise or was it chasing chasing the trails?
SPEAKER_00:Uh so yeah, I was just uh I was whenever I find myself bored, I like trying like I just think of things to do. So I was really bored one day. So I reached out to my friend uh Sam who lived in Minnesota and said, Do you want to try to start a business? So we tried to start a business in Boulder, and uh it was called the No Sweat Box. We wanted to start a subscription box for people that wanted to to use it for like a pre-race, uh just like subscription box. And uh so we had we had uh we had like the products and and the box made. It just didn't get off the ground. So yeah, I moved to Boulder to to try to start a business. And um instead I I did door-to-door sales out there, and that didn't didn't really pan out. So uh I I eventually again moved back home and uh it was just such a fun, fun experience though, for the time that I was there. I just loved it out there.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, I love that man. I respect anyone that takes swings. Like I I've myself started a few businesses or tried to start a few businesses that didn't work in my 20s and 30s, and like it's it's interesting. Like I think you get to learn there's a lot of like things you'll never learn in a day job doing stuff like that, and even things you don't learn in school. Like they don't teach you in school about LLCs, C corps, S-corps, like a lot of like structure, uh like business jargon and all different kinds of things. Like uh, and it's like such good information that you'll take away with you that you can apply to just life and and grittiness as well. I think there's a good crossover between starting something, following through with it, trying to make it work, and like running, doing the same thing over and over and over again with running, which is kind of funny.
SPEAKER_00:Totally, yeah. I I I like I've spoken at a couple different high school things, and like the two things that I'd like tell them to take away is like try new things in your 20s, like that's the decade to do it, and like that failure's okay. Like, I'm I'm totally okay if I start a business and it doesn't work out. I'm I'd like go all in on it, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Um, especially like like can translate to running too. You can go all in on a training block and the race doesn't go as planned, but you you tweak it and then try to get get make sure the next one goes a little better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Such a good metaphor for life, you know, dude, and it's funny you say that because like I think about this all the time. I come across folks that are almost getting their own way because they're so afraid to fail. And it's like, oh man, like you just gotta you gotta do it. And then once you do it, and if you do fail, like you'll realize like it's okay, like the world keeps spinning and you can go on and continue to do other things. Yeah, I don't know. I experienced just that with a lot of folks for some reason today. I don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know either, but yeah, I just think that we gotta get the message out, try new things, have fun and and see what works. Take big swings. Hell yeah. Exactly. Yep, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:All right, let's let's talk about Pennsylvania in general. So you ended up back in PA, which is uh I grew up in Pennsylvania. I lived there until I was in seventh grade. Um I was I'm actually from Bucks County, so not too far, not too too far from you. Um we didn't have like the Poconos, but we're like on the other side of the Poconos, if you will, like closer to Philly. Um dude, what a special place. Like I I loved the Northeast. Like I was just there for a good month and a half this uh this summer, and I'll go back next summer to go race just because there's I think there's so much there on the short trail scene that is just absolutely slept on. Um yeah, maybe talk about that. Like what's what is so special about it that that really is special for you?
SPEAKER_00:Totally, yeah, you're totally right. So Central PA has really like Central PA specifically has really gone all in on like this short trail PA. It's called the Roxylvania series, and um it's mostly Central PA, but it's spread out east-west, and um, there's everything you could do a a 5k series, you could do a 50k series, and anything in between. And um they've really like at the last three to five years have really honed in on the short trail specific. And um, if you if you if anyone wants to try anything on the east coast, try to get into the Heiner Heiner Trail Challenge. There's it sells out like a thousand people in like two days, and it's like insane. Um, it's just such a cool atmosphere start to finish. Um, but I really think that it probably started with that Heiner race because um Craig uh Craig Fleming uh is the race director behind that, and he's really branched out to make all of these short trail like 25k is like the sweet spot, but you can have everything from a smooth, easy 25k to um I put on a race here where it's 25k and 4700 feet gain, so it's like everything from easy to a little bit more difficult that you can find on in on in PA. So it's just a really diverse spot, I feel like that not many people think about so cool, dude.
SPEAKER_02:I stumbled upon I was lurking your Instagram before this episode, and I found this Boulder Beast 25k. That's like super looked very technical from some of the photos. I was like, oh, that's my that's my jam. Like, what is that all about? Um we'll talk about your race as well, then the Miller Mountain. But what is this Boulder Beast?
SPEAKER_00:Totally, yeah. So that's part of that series. That's uh I there's a 25k and 25 mile. I did the 25 mile last year, and oddly enough, I wanted to do it so bad because in in college we would our cross-country team would volunteer at the top of the boulder field and just cheer people on all day. So I was like so intrigued to like do it one day. So I'm happy I had the chance. And yeah, there's this like mile-long section, like five miles into the course, where it's just a straight boulder field within the forest. It like you come out of the woods and you're just engulfed in this massive boulder field where the boulders are like as big as your your car, and you just have to hop and climb up to the top of the mountain. And uh, and it's just like insane how technical some of this stuff is. And uh like this year, like there's there's like rattlesnakes in the rock sometimes. There could be bees. There's like my friend got stung like four times this year, so it's just um insane. Um like that course specifically is so fun. Like I did it last year, and I was having ankle issues, and uh, I twisted my ankle like five times during the race, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I just need to get to the finish line. That's crazy. But yeah, it's it's an insane course, and um yeah, anything from super super smooth to super bouldery technical we have in PA.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I love that. So tell me about your race. So you're a race director. Um, it's the Miller Mountain Trail Challenge. Is that the race that you put on?
SPEAKER_00:I do, yeah. My friend Kenny and I. Um yeah, Miller Mountain is is in my hometown here. Um, we do uh two races. We do a a five mile with 2,000 feet elevation gain and then a 25k with 4,700. Um, then it's super unique um for the area because um I mean you you're out in Colorado, so you have massive mountains, but for PA like Miller goes from bottom to top, it's like a 1500-foot gain climb. Um, and you do four loops, it's like a four-leaf clover for the 25k. And um a lot of it's a lot of it's pretty like easy footing, but there are some pretty technical, like especially if it's wet, you can go through you have to go like through a creek sometimes. Um the five mile is super cool because like average gain per per mile is 400 uh feet, so like it's super steep. Um and it's just I feel like super unique, especially to the northeast side of Pennsylvania. Um, but yeah, we've done it two years now. Um that's that's such a fun race to put on. We have a nice cookout afterwards, and um I do I do three races, my friends and I, uh, but that one is super special.
SPEAKER_02:Talk about the races that you do. I'm so curious. Like, how do you and also how do you like race directing? Like, I feel like that's such a special way to be able to give back to the sport. Like, you're obviously an athlete in the sport, you've done so much in it, you've had such a long resume, but like I don't know, I always think about like what else can you do? Some people start podcasts like me, some people start, some people start races, and I think the races are pretty dope.
SPEAKER_00:So talk about that. Sure. I've I've like putting on events is so exciting to me. Um, like I've my first race I ever put on was when I was uh 13. I did a a Christmas cheer mile in town where I I put put Christmas lights in this little little area and you had to do a mile around it. So ever since then I've just been intrigued with with putting on races. And um so we talked about Miller. I also put on a 10 10 mile road race um in the city um about 45 minutes away called the Wyoming Valley Run. We have uh about a thousand people that come out every year. Um that one's definitely that that one's very chariot. Well, all of the races are cherry charity oriented. That one though, we raise the most money. Um we raised uh$10,000 each year for charities, and um that one is definitely very road. It's it brings out a a lot of people, fast people. And then um I also do a mile road race in in town here uh that my friend Kenny and I just took over this year. Um and it's been going on for 30 years, so that one is super special. It's like such a neat and tight-knit part of the community. So um, but yeah, I love it. It's just like like you said, it's such it's there's a lot of hard work that goes into it, like putting everything together, uh making it all happen. But at the end of the day, it's just so worth it to see people smiling, coming across the finish line, hearing people's stories. Um, like I don't have my own stories to tell that day, but just hearing everybody's stories. Um it's just a cool way, like you said, to give back. And all the races have a charity um orient to them. So um raising money for charity and and uh letting people have a special day is is really fun.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. It's such a good way to give back to the sport. I I gotta ask you this, like if this is just a in maybe too much of an inside baseball question, but I'm just so curious because I know in Colorado it's such a pain in the neck to put on a race because the permitting is is insane. How is it in Pennsylvania? Like, did they did they put up a lot of barriers to entry, or is it like not so bad with the permitting?
SPEAKER_00:Where we are, it's it's it's great because um Miller Mountain was just purchased uh to be a state forest, like uh it was uh three years ago in November. So it's coming up on three years. And so um I met with the the forestry people right after it was purchased, and um we started a good relationship. So since there's not a lot of like it's inundated, um, it was so nice to just get in there first thing. Um, so we haven't had any issues, uh, thankfully. Um there is a part of the the 25k that goes on private land. Um and the oh my gosh, I'm so lucky because like it's such a nice tight-knit community where I'm from that like they're just like, yeah, we want people to be on be using the the land. We might as well have a race there. That's a bad thing. Um so we have an aid station set up there, and they always come out and and support people. So um I'm just very fortunate that we've had a had an easy time getting that stuff set up. That's so cool.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think you'll you'll put any more races on? Like, do you the reason I ask is because you've raced all over the all over the world, right? You've done Meet the Minotaur, you've you've seen a lot of sky racing and stuff. It's just like it's I think that there's a lot of opportunities specifically, and I think Pennsylvania terrain in some ways can can be pretty gnarly. I think there's there's a lot of right like opportunities for cool races, uh, or continue to create cool races um to exhibit more of like what the state has to offer and just the northeast in general.
SPEAKER_00:Totally, yeah, absolutely. Uh I I in terms of building up, maybe, maybe I can add one or two. Um, so one of the couple businesses that I that I did not work at, or it didn't work at was in 2019 at the end of the year, I was going to start a PA mountain series uh where it was at different ski resorts. And I had the places picked out, and uh then 2020 happened, and um the the events didn't happen and nothing happened in 2020 or really 2021 for the beginning. So um then I very very fortunately uh have the job that I have today. So I love the three races that I put on, maybe one more, uh, but we'll see what the schedule looks like. But you're right, there's just so many opportunities, especially in northeast PA. There's such cool terrain, but um there's not like a lot of trail running in northeast PA, whereas in central PA, like oh my gosh, there's so many cool, cool stuff out there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Zach always used to talk about that frozen snot race that he used to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a cool one. That's right near Lockhaven 2, and it's insane. It's in the middle of January, it's a half marathon with like 6,000 feet. It just goes up, up, down, up, down. It's like I haven't done that one yet, but it seems so fun.
SPEAKER_02:It looks horrible. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, exactly. What are your thoughts on, especially because you just uh and we'll talk about grindstone in a minute? Um, what are your thoughts, especially as a race director now, with just with like for instance, like the Cirque series just came to town, right? They're in New Hampshire and in um Vermont now, and who knows where else? Um you have UTMB kind of they have grindstone now, and it seems like there they'll there might be more races getting bought. Um do you think it's good for the sport, or do you think it's like what do you think is a race director? Do you think it's kind of cool because it puts more shine on the Northeast Trail scene?
SPEAKER_00:That's such a good question. And I there's probably so many, there's probably so many differing opinions on this, but um I personally love it. Like the Cirque series, they're doing such cool things. That was my first trail race that I ever did, uh, Snowbird Cirque in 2016. Oh wow. I it was called the Discreak series back then, um, and Julian uh has just really grown that to something special. Um but I love it because like it's such a good like intro to the sport. Not like I mean those courses are hard, don't get me wrong, but they have a lot of media, so a lot of more people hear about it for both UTMB and and Circ. So I think that it it brings more attention to the sport, it grows the sport, and then like the grassroot races, like I feel like as a race director, they're thriving. At least in PA. I I can't speak to everywhere in the United States, but um, I think that it's just bringing out a new set of people that haven't been in the sport, so I personally love it. Um I I love seeing like oh my gosh, the side story, like this year um at Miller Mountain, people drove from Chicago the day before, which is like a 13-hour drive, just to do their first trail race in Northeast PA at Miller Mountain. And I'm like, I'm like, it's just so cool. Like people drove that far for their first trail race. I don't know how they found it, but they did. And that's amazing. Like it just gets new people into the sport. So from that perspective, I love it. Like it helps out the brands, um, it helps out the professional athletes, it helps the people that are just getting into it. So I I personally think it's a net benefit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, same. I mean, honestly, like I I won't speak as much to UTMB just because I don't do as many UTMB races, but like my jam is the Cirque series, like Julian, I I call a friend now, Steve White, I call a friend. Like they're what they're putting on, and you know, I don't want to give too much love to Tom Hooper, but I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:I love Tom Hooper. Um, but no, in all seriousness, like just what they're able to do. Like, I dude, I hope they put on a bunch more in the northeast. Like, I'd love northeast racing. And like I'll like I'll be at Cannon next year. I raced Killington this past summer, and I'll go back to that. And uh and I hope there's more. I really just want more in the Northeast because it's I don't know, it's just fun, it's different. Uh like I don't know. I train in the mountains in Colorado all the time, obviously, and it's like it's always the same. You know, you go out to the mountain west, and for the most part, um, you know, a lot of it's similar, but you go out to the northeast and it's a completely different style. It's technical, it's it's hard, it's steeper in some ways. It's it's just different. So I I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. I those those two courses up in the northeast there seemed I I can't wait. I really want to get out there this year. I was dealing with a a sprained ankle um for the first one. I think it was Killian or Killington. Um, but man, those pictures looked insane. Uh and that that part of the Northeast, like the boulders and the roots are so so huge, and uh it's just so different than really anything. Um, but I agree. Let's build it out. If anyone wants, if they want to do one in PA, I'll help them out. That would be amazing. Oh, dude, we'll put that out into the world. I'd like to hear it. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:All right, let's talk grindstone. Uh, you just recently removed from the grindstone 50k where you took the win and got an automatic qualifier into OCC for next year. Dude, how does it feel? Like it's a really not an easy race. Um, yeah, talk about it. Talk about the course, talk about the race itself, how it went for you, and and then we'll kind of go from there.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I'm just uh I'm thrilled that I had the chance to go back. So um I I competed in 2023 um when it was the golden ticket race for uh Western states, and it was the week that I had to get my rabies vaccine because I had a pit bull bite my face. So I like I got the rabies vaccine. I went anyways, and I'm like, I know that this is gonna be hard, but I'm gonna try anyways. And uh to know it shouldn't have been a surprise, but it went very poorly, so I had to drop out at like mile 35, and um because the rabies vaccine just kicked my butt. Um, so I was just like, man, these trails are in so cool for the east coast. I really wanted to get back and um and get to the finish line. So this year I signed up for the 50k. It's a really cool course. Those trails are super unique to the East Coast because they're really not technical and they're really flowy. I felt like they were like made for like mountain biking or something, they were just really flowy and smooth, and um, so I was so pumped to get down there. Um, I was feeling so good this training block. I kind of tweaked my training a little bit this these past six months to try something new. And um uh yeah, it just felt so good to to get to the finish line and and um kind of get my redemption from a couple years ago. Dude, I love it.
SPEAKER_02:So you'll go, will you be going back to OCC or will you kind of go up to CCC? I know you've done you've raced both, haven't you?
SPEAKER_00:I have. That's such a good question because I didn't I actually didn't realize until uh this last couple days that I could go back up to CCC. Um I'm like pretty intrigued to do OCC again because the last time I did it was 2018. So I keep thinking like I'd love to race my 24-year-old self to see how I compared to back then. And um, I don't know, it's such a fun course. The 50k distance is so it's such a sweet spot, and I feel like I want to go have a really good, a really good um experience. The 100k CCC was amazing. I feel like I would pre I feel like I'm in more of a preparation mode for OCC this time around, though.
SPEAKER_02:I like it. I you know what, and I think that and not to continue to go back and you know put shine on the northeast, but I think that there's I and this is just me personally. I think at the Northeast it's easier to get ready for a race like that than it is in almost like where I am in the Colorado. And people are gonna drop their jaws for saying that, but I think the level of technicality, the straight the way the trails are built are different in the northeast. Like, I think it's like for instance, like if you were to train somewhere on like New Hampshire, like I think it it's such a better like training ground for like a UTMB than Colorado would be, in my opinion. I don't know, it's my my thought on it, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, you see, David Sinclair moved back, Eric Lapuma's doing awesome stuff up there. Um, Dan Kurtz. Um, I don't know Dan as much, but um, I know he's doing some awesome stuff, but yeah, you could still get like you could still get three to four thousand foot climbs up there. Um, like I did the PEMI loop up in New Hampshire. It's a it's like a 30 30 mile loop with 11,000 feet, which is like a great simulation for something like OCC. Um, so yeah, the training's here and like uh Miller Mountain, like I have a I have a trail that was that is on there that I use for Mount Marathon, and it's like it's uh average of 43% gain or 40 3% grade. Um so like yeah, there's a lot of steep stuff. The only thing is the the um I mean you you guys have a great uh benefit with altitude out there, obviously. A little bit, um, which is is awesome. Uh, but you're right, like yeah, those if I do some training camps up in up in New Hampshire or in the Adirondacks, like I could certainly be ready for those longer climbs.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, no, for sure. It's interesting, man. It's it's that ultimate trade-off. I talk to uh athletes about this all the time, specifically Dan and I have chatted about this on more than one occasion, where it's like it depends on the type of races you like to do. Like if you're racing high altitude stuff, then it makes sense to live at altitude. But if you're like for instance, it's just the power generation is different. Like you can generate so much more power living at sea level than maybe I can at 7,000 or 8,000 feet, specifically just because of the air, you know, it's just a completely different kind of calculus there. So yeah, it's an interesting trade-off, but yeah. Let's uh I want to talk to you about Mount Marathon and going up to uh what was it this year, the 97th running or something like that? 97th, yeah. How was it, man? What how was your experience out there?
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, it was amazing. My wife and I were up there for 10 days, um, and uh from start to finish, it was just um amazing. Like what top three, like that area, like the Alaska Mountain Range, top three like mountain ranges that I've seen for sure. Um, they had like a a lot of snow this year compared to normal. So we tried to get up to some of the higher like hikes and runs that we wanted to do, and we weren't able to. Like, I really wanted to do the Cirque series race, but I I like got three quarters of the way up, and the ridge like you needed like like mountaineering gear. It was insane. Yeah, yeah. Um, but uh yeah, so the whole experience was amazing. The race, though, like oh my gosh, it's so unique compared to anything that I've done, even though like any of the sky racing that I've done, it was just like those those people that do. that race it is so so specific like um well 3000 foot and one mile up 3000 foot down um I felt like I I felt like I performed well but there's just like the very specific details that I that I didn't do well that like if you lived and trained there um like that's where you get the like a good advantage like I don't know Max King has crushed it um coming not like not living at in Alaska but he's really figured it out I'd love to do it a couple times because I feel like there's some things that you could you could change to really really do well there.
SPEAKER_02:It's a hard race to nail did you take the the roots or the cliffs?
SPEAKER_00:Cliffs uh up and down uh did you do it no no I just know a lot about it I've been planning on doing it maybe next year we'll see you totally should but yeah the cliffs I felt like was the way to go um I I practiced all the different different uh routes and that one just seemed the I mean it's the most popular but also like I felt like it was the fastest and and after I tested all the ways um the roots was the roots was unique but I thought it was just a little slower. Uh yeah because I was I was racing well Patty O'Leary was in it this year and he and I have raced like like like five times and um it's always fun because we trade off with every race that we do we're like he's beaten me more than I have beaten him but we always are back and forth. So he took the roots I took the cliffs and I was just ahead of him right afterwards. So I was like I think I made the right choice there.
SPEAKER_02:Shout out to Patty he's someone I gotta get on the podcast. I uh yeah I gotta I gotta talk to Patty O'Leary one of these days totally yeah it's an interesting cat um so experience wise so you definitely would go back I'd love to hear it um and I it's it's your I feel like it's funny for a 5k it is a very difficult race to nail and definitely impossible to nail your first go like it's either you have to have stupid insane fitness to just over kind of overshadow any any like small parts that you might overlook or it's like you have to dedicate so much to it which has got to be difficult.
SPEAKER_00:Totally yeah especially like I mean the uphill I feel like is very like fitness oriented like you could you could not fake but you could get away if you have a lot of fitness but the downhill I feel like you could really lose or gain a ton of time on people. Um I I love downhill like I feel like I'm probably better at downhill than uphill and like they had a big snowfield this year which was really fun uh because Patty beat me to the top and he was he was like a little timid on the snowfield and like I flew down the snowfield and I passed him right at the end of the snowfield and um and like there's such it's such a diverse downhill because this year there was this snowfield then there was the really fun scree it's I don't it's like I don't know 50 to five degree slopes and so it's the scree field that you'd really have to just commit to and then there's like the these couple waterfalls like five to six foot drops there's like two of those and then you go down the cliff section um and like if if you that's where I think I can make up the most time is is on that lower section of the downhill um and uh yeah yeah if you I could see if you're if you're not ready for that you could really make up or or decline a little bit on that.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. I don't know how Norris does it man he's that's I know he's superhuman it's crazy it it's funny and it's like only specific courses that like it's like that and then really technical stuff he's just so dirty at he's so good.
SPEAKER_00:It sure is yeah and then like uh my friend Taylor who lives up he's he's from Alaska he has the best downhill um like I think well it's the best downhill ever from top to top to finish he he's like under 10 minutes that's and he's just like crazy it's insane he just like fully commits he said when he broke when he broke the record that year he like did like two separate summer somersaults I'm like you have to be so committed to to do that like I did not commit myself that much no fear and he hopefully he's got good health insurance dude holy shit like insane yeah that was so crazy yeah I I I hope to get in I'm gonna try to get in next year we'll see I don't know we've been d throwing around the idea of the Alaska trip for next year we're supposed to do it this year and I got injured and was like all right well I don't want to sit in a car for because we were gonna drive up we were going to take the dogs and like make a long trip out of it but it's it's a long that's a long undertaking it's like you got to driving it's a lot of driving you got to be fully committed so yeah yeah we'll see I will say it's totally worth it though if you get in definitely make the trip.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah yeah it's definitely on the list. All right let's let's shift gears a little bit I want to talk about your time in the sport and some of the cool things that like you've done like you were a professional athlete for Hoka for for a nice chunk of time and then now you're in this free agency period I gotta ask you what do you like better? What do you prefer? Like do you like the pressure being off you now or do you prefer to be traveling around the world doing the the pro Hoka thing?
SPEAKER_00:That's such a good question. So yeah I was with them for 2021 and 2022 um man I absolutely loved my time with Hoka. I I'm like so thankful for it. I love the brand I still still love the shoes I still still run in Hokas but um I I I don't think I did well with the pressure. I think that that was more of a even since college I think that I've underperformed when the pressure was high. So like I loved what I got to do. I helped with uh Project Carbon X uh two um I got to you know eat have dinner with with the the two founders out in France at CCC and like man those experiences I'm I wouldn't I wouldn't take away for anything but I do think that I didn't I didn't perform as well as I could have with the pressure so I think that I've done so much better since and before I just think that those two years I probably underperformed because of personal personal pressures that I put on myself um and like I didn't expect to ever win a UTMB series race and I just had went down there I had zero pressure I'm like this is the lead up to my next race and I'm just like whatever happens happens. So um I think that I've certainly done a little better without the pressure um but very fortunate for those two years I I wouldn't trade that at all.
SPEAKER_02:That's interesting man I it's funny like how I it's it's it's the games we play with ourselves to put the pressure on ourselves for to want to perform and do our best on race day but it's just interesting the way the mind works with that stuff. Yeah no and I I I don't know it's it's I appreciate you being candid and talking about it. I was just uh I was very curious about how you uh how you kind of reconciled it so how do you what are you taking it from now? Like what are you doing next? Um is it grindstone onto Havelina or like what's the plan?
SPEAKER_00:Definitely yeah so yeah I'm I'm doing Havelina hundred at the end of October and um uh I I I know that I'm not gonna be like at the front of this race I'm just like I want this as a nice challenge because like I feel like my specialty is 25k and 50k and I just like I really want to finish 100 miles and I feel like Havelena is a fun atmosphere to get it done. It's my wife can have a pretty chill like crewing I'm gonna have a pacer so like it's more of a like get the job done like get get the event done um but have fun doing it not not no pressure whatsoever but um after that I I just don't I just want to stick to that 2550k distance because it's just like those are the races that I feel like I I do best at and I have the most fun with especially training wise with having a full-time job and being on local boards and the races and I just I feel like that's where I'm happiest. How do you let's talk about that a little bit like you have a full-time job you have a demanding job I I under like finance is not like I get it it's a lot of work dude how do you balance being being a husband being a being you know working full time being a race director so like a lot of projects being on boards and then training at a high level like how do you how do you do it all that's thank thank you yeah I um uh like I said earlier like I don't do well when I'm bored so I I need to like always be doing something I feel like um so uh I just love it one I don't give myself much praise but I feel like I I feel like time management is something that I'm pretty good at and I feel like is super important. Um so yeah I wake up in the morning I I get my coaching in I go on my run do work and then the evening is spending time with my wife and doing other um extracurriculars that I that I am involved with whether it's boards or getting race stuff done um so I just split up my my day like that I I I feel like I have a pretty systematic day where it's pretty much that every day where um uh where I do the same stuff but I don't know I love it I we all have 24 hours I love to to do I I feel like I couldn't do the same thing every day we were talking about a little bit I love having different things throughout the day to keep me keep me busy and my mind active in different ways.
SPEAKER_02:How how does training work for you? Do you work with a coach or are you self-coached?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah good yeah good question I so I the last year and a half two years um this is the first time in my um 16 17 years of running where I'm I'm coaching myself I was with David Roche for about five years um I loved my time with him he's uh he's such a good coach and incredible person and um I was just like you know I I just love to try after 15 or however many years it was I'm like you know I have all this thought pro thoughts of knowledge I'm like you know what why don't I try it and see what I could do by myself and um it's nice because with a lot of stuff going on I could like tweak it to to fit what I have in my in my personal life. So um yeah not working with a coach right now it's my first time ever so it's it's been fun.
SPEAKER_02:Dude it it's interesting right I've I've go back and forth like I was self-coached all last year and then finally when the last like two months decided to go get a coach again I like waffle back and forth with it. I think it's it's it it all depends like I think for me it's the workouts like for those like really because Cirque series races are like basically a track meet in the mountains right so it's like I have to continuously figure out the workouts and it's like all right well I need someone to help me with like VO2 blocks and then tempo blocks and just stuff like that that I'm just kind of a dumb dumb at. So it definitely uh having a coach definitely helps for stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:No way. No it's it's you're right though it's so nice having somebody to to put put it on not cruise control but do the do the work for you in that sense and um I feel like you definitely have to yourself included like you're you're a disciplined guy so it's you definitely have to have like a disciplined mentality to get the work in and um yeah and uh discipline and attention to detail. So um it's been a fun fun experiment. I don't know if I'll I'll I will or I won't go back with a coach. I think that it's great to have somebody to to bounce ideas off of but for now it's it's fun to try try new stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I agree with no I think every person in my opinion should at some point in time try and do it themselves. And the reason is because it is I I think the the best part about it is at least for me is if you're not like feeling like you can move your week around and I think like move stuff around as long as you get everything you need to get done done in the week you can kind of play around with it to see what fits and works for you. Whereas like with the coachers it's obviously much more structure and stuff like that. And it's I don't know like if there's a day I don't feel like doing something I'll move it around but then I'll feel bad for moving it around and I'm like oh I gotta have a conversation about this and yeah it's it's it's kind of fun.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. Totally yep agreed um all right let's pivot a little bit I'm trying to remember what I was gonna ask you I lost my train of thought I was gonna ask you uh oh dude I was gonna get into your whys this is something I I've been like digging into with folks lately is like your why for running like obviously you've had a few different lives in the sport now you're in this this period where your pressure's off you're doing your thing you're enjoying it and having success at it like how has your why kind of evolved and changed as time has gone by yeah you know I I struggled with that for a little while um especially like the tail end of Hoka and the beginning of not hoka it was um I don't feel like I had a a very specific why which which was hard um but I feel like now I've thought about it especially like going down the grindstone I was just like I made in a point to think about that um and it's just so special because one I I want to give back to the sport with the race directing and and um I work at a high school cross country camp in the summer um so I just think right now it's just like no pressure have fun you love it so like my why is just just do it because you love it and it it has so many good translations into real life um like everything like especially like the problem solving that comes with trail running the the discipline the the um being patient um like everything that that you go through in training I feel like helps you become a better person in real life at least that's the way I look at it so like my why is just like make it's gonna make you a better person it's gonna make you a better husband a better employee um and I just think that it it has such big translations from from from running to to real life. So um I do it because I love it really.
SPEAKER_02:That's the best why dude you do it because you want to self-improve and you love it more than anything and I think that's I think that's the purest way to go go about things. You know if there's anything other than that it's like it's interesting I talked to so many athletes man and so many people like lose their you see start to people like lose their love of it the more it becomes professionalized and the more it becomes you know this thing that I do for money where it's like oh I have to feed my family or myself and this is like do or die and it's like oh that's a lot of pressure man.
SPEAKER_00:I don't yeah that that that's exactly right like with um and that was not like Hoka's fault at all but like I felt like all right I have this this opportunity this contract like you see the you see the bonuses that you can get you're like this is like you could you could change like it's not like NFL money but you could really change your life and put yourself in a different circumstance um so I think that I I really think that my why was was not in the right place when I was when I was in that position. But now it's just like no pressure have fun do it because you love it. And um yeah now I feel like I'm in such a I'm in a blessed position where I could self-fund my travel so like now I could I could go to a a race in Canada or Alaska or Europe and um I'm just feel like very fortunate that I don't have to have the pressure and still be able to do that stuff.
SPEAKER_02:I love it.
SPEAKER_00:What um what's a so you've done so many races man you've raced all over the world like you've you just came back you just did Mount Marathon uh you've done uh what's that badass race in Cranmore Meet the Minotaur like you've done some great races what's a what's a bucket list what's one you haven't hit yet that's like high on the list oh that I haven't done yet um oh my gosh if anybody hasn't done Meet the Minotaur that one is wild I definitely recommend that one but um since I since like 2018 I've wanted to do Trans Vulcania um like in in such a like like so every year I'm like oh my gosh I have to do it it's such a cool race it seems like um like when Hayden Hawks did it I forget what year he did it.
SPEAKER_02:It's a while ago it's probably 2017 2016 17 something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Something like that. We had a conversation after he did it and he he said how how amazing it was and um so that is one that I really really want to do um just as a bucket list and um is this is cliche and I know I said I love 25 Ks and 50 K's but like western states would be such a like such a bucket list one just to do again not to like not to like win or whatever just because like it's so prestigious and just I feel like it would be so amazing but yeah those two those two are are on my list.
SPEAKER_02:Dude Transvolcania looks dope that and Transgrand Canaria looks dope too like any of those Canary Islands or any of those like volcanic islands look so cool to go run around in um yeah yeah definitely high on the list.
SPEAKER_00:And really like any of the Skyrunner series like they do they are I feel like that's one of the best series out there. It's amazing like those courses um I I had the opportunity this year to to go on the series I I didn't end up taking the opportunity but um like all of those races they do such a good job they pick like these insanely like you can go with the smallest villages in in the Andes mountains to um any of the big the big stuff in in Europe but um and and Mexico like they have such cool races just all over the world now. So any of those skyrunning series races are just insane.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah that's I mean I was gonna ask you like as far as like what's next kind of stuff outside of uh um maybe OSCC CCC or you know javelina stuff I that's something that would be cool to see you doing is like more on the Skyrunner series and kind of playing around because I don't know I just feel like you know the technicality of the Northeast is a good place to get ready for races like that. Like you actually can train and I think that you know there could be some gacross over there.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed yeah I I always try to do one uh I tried to do one skyrunning series race a year um on the series and this year I was going to do one in um oh my in in in europe um but instead after I got into um uh Mount Marathon I decided to go there instead yep um so next year I'd love to go back and do uh a Skyrunner series plus OCC um like Skyrace they I'm gonna say this wrong skyrace de Mathisons yeah Mathieu de Messi I think it's de Messi I can't I gotta work on my French um it's dude that is such a sick race um yeah Michelinos run it he's told me all about it like I've had quite a few friends run that race and I'm just like oh dude I gotta get in there one of these years it looks so much fun you totally should I did it in 2019 and it was a snow year and it was just like it was insane like I forget the I forget the the numbers but like 6,000 foot up 6,000 foot down and it's just like village to like subalpine to like straight alpine and it's just like and that was where I realized that uh European races they they don't really take the switchbacks they just go right down them. So that that's where I got to to do my testing on that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah they it's more of a guidance it's more of guidelines than it is actual rules for them the the whole the downhills yeah it's kind of hilarious.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I love it because one came flying by me like I was going straight and they like they went perpendicular to me and I'm like what the heck is happening and then I realized that you could just go straight down that you didn't have to take the trail.
SPEAKER_02:It's I find that thought process so funny because like you're not the only American that said that to me. It's like when they're I Benjamin Townsend I had on the podcast a bazillion times and he said the same thing to me after the race. He's like I it didn't really click with me when they started cutting switchbacks that you could just do that. He's like oh like okay it's kind of funny I love it.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking I'd love to do I'd love to do a Skyrunner series and then an OCC next year.
SPEAKER_02:Sweet sweet I love to hear it man um let's pivot really quick on some ending questions. I gotta ask you because I've been really big on asking folks this like take on the sport like are you excited to see it professionalized so much? Are you excited like do you think we're gonna be an Olympic sport? Like what do you want to see out of the sport in the next five years?
SPEAKER_00:That's a good question. So I I personally like the professionalization of it um it's so hard because ask me five years ago and I think that Olympics would have been my answer but uh I just after talking to people about what that Olympic look would be I don't know if I if I would love it as much. Because I don't think that it's like I don't think it would be like the world champs that just happened. I think that it would be it would have to be visually appearing appealing like it did like how it went for mountain biking um how it it kind of changed uh and and with rock climbing like it's so specific to the Olympics uh visually um that I kind of like the setup we have now with UTMB as as that championship and um the world champs every two years like I think that's I think that's super cool the way it's set up now. But I personally like the profession professionalization of it. People are making a living off of it now. The brands are are innovating in the in the space they're putting money into it as you can see now with with Nike um they just re last year got a new CEO where now they're they're kind of going more into into the space um how they just did the coverage for free trail for worlds I think that that is going to be a cool thing to follow going forward um with how big of an RD program they have um but I think competition is is good for the brands to have so I'm excited to see what happens in the next five years and I'm personally excited about where it's going um because it is I mean there it's still broken up you have golden trail you have skyrunner you have utmb and world champs so there's definitely a lot of splinters but I think that our sport is that I think that there's so many different different disciplines that you it's nice to have the ability to pick what you're good at.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I I love it too it's interesting like for in like I'm obviously a giant fan of the Cirque series like I feel like that is the premiere if you want to race mountain classics that's the way to race mountain classics in North America I think we just need we need like a world final for mountain classics. Like I think like ETC could be it like that would be sweet at on the like for the UTMB. And then for your 20k's or I mean 50k is already OCC we need something for the 20k maybe that's the golden trail world series final or something like that. Like there's there's plenty of opportunities for like I don't know finals and stuff like that. And then on every other year we get the world championships with makes it which makes it uh you know pretty cool. What did you think of worlds this year? Any any takeaways anything that like stuck out to you other than just like Stoke Yeah that's a good question.
SPEAKER_00:I thought the the area is super cool I raced in the Pyrenees before at a Sky Race uh event and it's it's such a cool mountain range. I wasn't in that specific area but it looked so pretty out there. I love that they had like I feel like that's what a world um I feel like that's what Trail Worlds like that's the venue we should have because people are saying it was super steep technical off trail like I love that stuff. I think that that kind of that kind of is a good grounds for our sport to to have a world final on um I feel like if you have it on something super smooth super flowy um I think that that wouldn't be a good equalizer for for the sport. So I love the venue that they had it at um and the results were really interesting. Like each distance I feel like um different countries kind of to showed their strengths um so it was really cool to see um I think this year was was interesting with UTMB being so close so I think in two years with it being a couple weeks after it will be really the results might be shaken up a bit from this year um because people that do race at UTMB finals might uh do a little bit be be more uh fresh for it but this year was so fun to follow I was so pumped to to um see Jim and Katie both win the long trail and um all all the US teams I thought were they did they had such a good representation this year. All the athletes were so impressive.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah it's crazy how strong the Americans have gotten like we're we're for sure a force like as far as like worldwide goes now like the mountain teams did amazing the vertical teams did amazing the um you know the and the interesting thing on your to your point on with UTMB and long trail too is like I wonder how different it would look in because I think next time around in 2027 it'll be in November. So that's good. I mean like maybe we get Tom and John Albin and like Ben Dieman and and folks like that and Ruth Croft for New Zealand. Like I I would have liked for the long trail to see more of that representation but it's hard I mean it's like damn near impossible to turn around a race like that. Like you could see the guys like Eli and David Sinclair for sure were wearing CCC in their legs like you know so which is a bummer but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah how did you how did you enjoy covering it I know you did a lot of coverage with athletes and stuff. What was your perspective?
SPEAKER_02:It's fun it's it honestly like not it's just a blast like um pr the predictions were hard it was interesting to make the predictions because you know as as an athlete in the sport and as someone that knows all these athletes now like they be a lot of them become your friends. So it's like it's really difficult for me to like remove oh well I love Cam Smith. He's one of my favorite people in the world how do I not pick Cam Smith or Joe Gray or you know it's it's it's or Michelino like it's very difficult for me to uh remove that bias if you will because I had like uh Robert Prosser um he does like free trail commentating and stuff like that and I had him on he's a brain and Rob was kind enough to come on and help do the predictions and we were looking through just the start list and stuff like that and like he's like oh dude you got to remove your you got a little bit of a bias there. I was like I know it's it's uh so that was difficult for me but the the positive was was just just seeing everyone uh you know dude so many of these athletes including yourself like these athletes from a very young age want to go represent team USA at the highest level and then they get to go do it right like that's that's the coolest thing like hearing you know their answers when it's like well what is it like you know getting to represent the stars and the stripes and hearing how stoked they are to go do that and yeah I don't know like that that that was very special. And it's been cool too following these athletes from Sunpee um like especially Anna Gibson Lauren Gregory Allimack like the entire mountain classic team um from Sunnepe all the way through getting to call that race and be the commentator on that live stream and then you know as everyone's kind of evolved throughout their summers and you know like you see Mason who's had like like an Olympic level season which is crazy all these athletes. So yeah it's been cool and so that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I I think it's so fun to follow especially like there's so many variables in in this sport like that you could you could pick the the best you could have the best lineup on your free trail fantasy but like so there's so many variables that people have a good day or a bad day. And like the shorter courses, like the classic was so fun to follow because like that distance, I feel like it's it's very conducive for like a a and not um like a no-name person to have such a good day um that you're nobody was expecting it. Um so like I just I just love love the variability and and pop-ups that happen, uh especially at a world champs.
SPEAKER_02:One of the interesting things too I was thinking about with worlds is a lot of the athletes you see doing like really, really well, like your needle angle hards of the world and a few others, like some of these athletes don't have like giant sponsorships or like aren't racing like the highest end races. They're just really, really good and just either haven't been discovered or have been and just don't have those opportunities. It's really interesting. Like that was one of the the the points that I I had like written down to like put across in an episode at some point that it's like you know, just because that we have a big name, for instance, like on a team on the sport, like there's they s some people still get beat, and like there's a lot of other people out there that are really good, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And uh as as the sport grows, I think it'll be really cool that that new people will be uh be into it and and give some surprising performances. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Ben, I think this is a good put uh good good place to bookend it, dude. It was so nice getting to meet you and have you on the podcast, man. I hope we uh I hope our paths cross uh in the northeast this uh this upcoming summer. Hopefully we'll get to uh either throw down at a race together or definitely meet. So hopefully we get out for a run.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, come out to Miller or or come out if if you do the Cirque series races, let me know. That would be cool to meet up. Yeah, let's do it, dude. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, again, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I'm such a fan, and uh thanks again for coming on.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much, very much. I appreciate it. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_02:Big shout out to Ben for coming on the podcast. Want to thank him so much. Uh, what'd you guys think? Hope you enjoyed the episode. Um, guys, the best way you can support Ben is to give him a follow on Instagram uh or race one of his races. I'm gonna link his uh some of his races in the show notes. So if you guys happen to find yourself in Pennsylvania or are interested in a trail race in the Northeast, you could definitely go check out uh his races um as well as you can follow him on Instagram, and that's just gonna be at Ben underscore Robinson88. That's Robin R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N-88. Um give him a follow. Let you let him know what you guys thought about the episode. I'm sure he'd really appreciate any feedback on the episode and words of encouragement. Uh especially as he takes on Havelina in a few weeks, uh, which is a kind of a it's a really long race. It's definitely not short trail. Um yeah, guys, I really appreciate you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've been joining the pod enjoying the podcast in general, uh give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume podcasts. And very last but not least, if you're also interested in supporting the podcast, you can do that by supporting our brand partner, Ultimate Direction. If you guys are in the market for a new vest or belt, you can head on over to ultimatedirection.com. They just dropped uh a few new product lineups, including a six-liter race vest, a 12-liter ultra vest, as well as comfort belts and race belts, um, along with a new quiver. Uh quiver that's compatible on a lot of different types of vests. So definitely give all of those a checkout. And uh if you happen to find something you like, use code Steep StuffPod. Again, that's one word Steep Stuff Pod at checkout for 25% off your cart. Uh, guys, all kinds of good stuff coming down the pipeline. I've got an episode with David Hedges dropping, as well as one with Kyle Richardson. So all good stuff coming out pretty soon. Um, so stay tuned in and uh thanks for following along.
