The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#127 - David Sinclair
Ten hours on the edge, a live stream watched by hundreds of thousands, and a second-place finish that announced David Sinclair to the world stage. We unpack how an injury scare turned into a smarter build, why he chose CCC over OCC, and the exact training and fueling choices that helped him lead for hours, survive the low points, and find the grit to hold the podium in Chamonix.
David takes us inside the chaos at Worlds—from canceled flights to a sky-high vert profile—and what that taught him about specificity and course targeting. Then we go deep on the nuts and bolts: threshold-focused workouts drawn from his ski background, a summer of cross-training and uphill-only running, and the course recon that let him pace with intent. We break down his fueling strategy in plain terms—80 to 100 grams of carbs per hour, flavor fatigue management, and why separating carbs, fluids, and electrolytes can save your stomach late. With Western States on the horizon, he shares a practical heat plan: steady sauna work, relentless ice at every aid, and simple systems that keep core temperature down without overcomplicating race day.
We also talk shoes and gear, including Craft prototypes that balance cushioning with stability on runnable terrain, and why East Coast training—rolling dirt roads, rooty steeps, variable weather—can build world-class durability without altitude. David’s philosophy is refreshingly clear: keep it fun, stay flexible, and double down on the basics that actually move the needle. If you’re mapping your next build or just love a front-row view of a breakthrough season, this conversation is a masterclass in turning setbacks into fuel.
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello, and today I'm so excited to welcome David Sinclair back on the pod. David has had an absolutely crazy season and came on to talk all about it, not just the second place at CCC, but also helped Team USA achieve a fourth overall standing at the World Mountain Running Championship. On top of that, David had a fifth place finish at the Broken Arrow Ascent and a second place at the Broken Arrow 46K in 2025, which got him on Team USA. On top of that, David has had an absolute crazy year, won the Loon Mountain race, and also had a third place at the Mount Washington Road Race, amongst many other finishes. David came on to chat all about his season, and we we really dove deeply, I think, this time more into CCC. We did break down Broken Arrow a little bit. David had kind of been dealing with some injury and was able to kind of pull off that broken arrow finish, which I think was one of the most like craziest awesome things that he was able to do all season. But yeah, a lot of this conversation was surrounded around his CCC and what he did to get himself on that podium and just uh yeah, had himself a great finish on the day. So, guys, I hope you enjoy this one. Always a fan of David Sinclair, one of the best mountain runners on the planet right now. Um, we also did talk a little bit about trading. We got into some heart rate related stuff, I think it was kind of fun. Uh, some good stuff you guys are going to take away from it. So, without further ado, David Sinclair. Ladies and gentlemen, we've David Sinclair. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff podcast. How's it going, man? It's going really well. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Excited to uh catch back up with you. The last time we chatted, I think we talked like just before Broken Arrow. I was trying to get you on for a uh it was like right after Mount Wash and just before Broken Arrow. And I know you were dealing with some uh, I know there was a lot of up in the air, you weren't sure if you were gonna race and then you did it and you had yourself a day and it's qualified for worlds. And it's been just a kind of a crazy thing to follow. Uh how how would you grade your season with everything? Like how how would you, if you were to put it on a grade scale? Like what do you think? Because to all of us watching, it was it's been amazing to follow.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, I think I'd give myself an an A. You know, it's been definitely not not how I expected it to go. Uh some ups and downs, but uh yeah, I can't I can't complain. I definitely exceeded exceeded my goals with second place at CCC. And yeah, it was it was a little rough in the spring with some teller tendinitis. And uh yeah, I I was a little worried for a bit there that maybe the the whole season was gonna be shot and was able to able to cross-train through it. And yeah, I think it ended up maybe being a blessing in disguise for the the rest of my year, having that little setback.
SPEAKER_00:So crazy. It's weird, man. Like, I don't know, maybe you can provide some commentary to this. It's like us in the states always knew you to be like one of the the best talents we've had. Like come onto the trail running scene, but now that you were able to do it at CCC and like kind of show the world, has things changed for you? Like have things changed at all?
SPEAKER_01:Definitely feels like a little bit different. Like at least like when I talk to other people, like I I don't feel like my result at CCC was like, you know, I I kind of believed in myself and don't see it as being like you know, that much bigger of a result than some other races I've had in the US. So, but definitely like realizing like wow, like a lot of people were watching, and a lot of people noticed that result has been definitely eye-opening and pretty cool to yeah, see people like recognizing that performance is yeah, a really good day.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it was an amazing day. We'll get into it, we'll dive into it in a little bit. But yeah, I just thought I was gonna give you your flowers just because, like, man, like well, not only just like what a result, but like we all knew, like we all kind of figured like it was either gonna be like you or Eli or kind of that dynamic, and we'll we'll talk about that as well. It's kind of a fun dynamic between you guys. How are you feeling post-worlds? Like that was uh kind of a fun little trip for you. How are you doing as far as recovery goes?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I'm feeling really good again. Like it's I'm I'm a little bittersweet on the performance because I felt like I recovered really well from uh CCC and had a little good block of training, and then just it, yeah, that it was such a stacked field and such a hard course that I was a little humbled over there, but I I don't I don't think I had had had a great day. And I've I'm I'm back and I'm still motivated and jump right back into training here in Vermont. So uh yeah, I was I was hoping for a top 10, and you know, it was still still fun to mix it up with the other US guys and we came came close but ended up just off the podium as a team. But yeah, it was an incredible experience, so fun to be part of like TM USA, and it was my first time at Worlds where we had all four different disciplines and like this this huge crew and just so much energy. So I'm yeah, just honored to have have gotten to go over there and experience it.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I was laughing so hard. Like, I guess did you travel over there with Tom Hooper and and and Paul?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was on the little like the the with the coaches from from the East Coast, and we went to the airport at Boston, and we were supposed to have a red eye at 11 o'clock at night. And at 11 o'clock at night they said, oh, they're gonna delay us two hours, and at 1 a.m. they said two more hours, and then at 3 a.m. they said uh the keep the flights canceled, go home. So I was already cutting it a little bit close on on travel, just because I knew like the two trips to Europe was gonna be, I didn't want to like be over there too long and away from home too long, and yeah, no sleep in the airport, and then having to catch red eye the next night, getting to span a day, a day late. I think maybe just in retrospect, I should have gone over a little earlier and had some time to like check out that course because it was like 45k and 12,000 feet of vert, really techy, and just yeah, was definitely not fully adjusted to the time zone and got kind of just destroyed my legs on the first climb and descent and then had a had a rough next two hours in the the race over there.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow. You were I mean, I read your Instagram write up and you were pretty candid about it. Like you you said you were able to kind of you hit like a pretty low low and were able to kind of like pull it back together. Would you would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01:Or yeah, it was like a really interesting day just because I, you know, I went out and it was a huge pack on the first climb, and I could just feel like I wasn't like I was like within contention, but I felt like I was just like didn't feel comfortable, was working kind of hard. I paired up with uh Noah Williams and we tried to work together over the top and on the descent, and then uh we were probably like in around 20th place after the first climb and descent, and then he kind of like took off on the next climb, and I just had had dead legs, and you know, then next thing I knew, 10, 10, 12 people had passed me on the next climb, and it was like I just had no fight and and no popping my legs. I was like, well, this isn't where I want to be. Um got really like mentally down, and then uh just kind of like I tried to keep pushing, but wasn't going the wrong going the wrong way. And then uh get to the second aid station, it's like you know, there's still two hours or so left. And I I realized I was still like the third guy for the US team, so every place and every second was gonna count. So I just like yeah, kept pounded a couple gels and decided to like to to work, try to work my way back up one place at a time and had a really good like last last two descents and last final climb. And yeah, was able to go from about I think it worked my way down to 30th and then ended back in 19th. So it was like if I could have like just had a little bit better the next like the middle two hours was where I lost all the time. And I think on on a good day it could have been top 10 and we would have been right in the metal hunt for the US. So but yeah, that it was just like a different type of racing. It was a real sky race. So uh the you could see the the runners on the podium really specialize in skyrunning and kind of made it their their A goal for the whole season. So yeah, you you live and you learn, and next time you gotta you gotta really target target the that world championship race if you if you want to deliver on the day.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like we'll figure it out in 2027. It's gonna be a much different course too, because South Africa is just so different. And with it being in November, I think it'll be better for just everybody, especially the Americans. Like as long as people aren't too pooped out from the summer, I think they'll there's ample time for recovery and just it'll just be a different, just kind of a different game. I I gotta ask, I gotta ask you this, especially for someone like you who is so comfortable being at the front of a race, not afraid to take it out hard, not afraid to lead a race. Was it weird being back a little bit? Like, how did you fight back like the negative self-talk and like getting behind? Like, were you able to pull it together? Were you in like a really, really low like that you hadn't experienced before? Like, how were you able to kind of fight through that?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's just yeah, it's it's hard. Like, I've had had a good year, so I think I'm getting a little more used to like not being afraid to mix it up and put myself to the front. So, like when when the page just went out really hot, even on like the first mile, it's like a downhill on a road, and you you realize you we start climbing, and it's there's 30, 40 guys all like vying for position as you start climbing on single track. And yeah, you just kind of have to accept it. I knew it was gonna be a be a really difficult race and really deep field, but uh definitely like I'm used to like being chill at the race and the first climb and first ascent, and then I'm used to like when I race smart, then all of a sudden like it starts to feel a little effortless and you're picking people off like on the second climb. And so to have it go the wrong way. And all of a sudden on the second climb, like I was just getting past, and and I was like trying to push, but yeah, just didn't feel like I had that mental mental energy to really like dig deep or the legs to be going the way I wanted to. Was it was pretty hard mentally, so so I think I gotta give credit to like just the the fans, the coaches, and then just like that, you know, you're representing the US, so you like the whole country is kind of depending on you. And I knew I was the third, like in third place for the US team in the top three scored. So I just kind of told myself to like, even if it's not where you want to be, you just gotta like you know, try to stay mentally engaged and just you just keep trying. And then yeah, I don't know if it was a time change or whatever, but it was like all of a sudden like something clicked, and I felt like I woke up and then and then it was actually really fun the last two hours or so because I was all sudden like picking people off and you know flying by them. Like I was kind of hoping to be doing the whole last, you know, like 30k of the race.
SPEAKER_00:It's crazy, dude. I thank you for being candid about it. I appreciate it. Outside of the race itself, the experience, like getting, you know, having the roommate experience and then also the food and everything. Like, what was your takeaway from that? Like A, like was a good venue? Like, what did you think? Especially because like this is not the first time you've competed for Team USA.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was like completely different experience compared to the the last two times I was on like a trail running worlds team because I I hadn't been since 2019 in Argentina, and so I hadn't had all four disciplines. So we just had we had way more support from staff. Um, it just felt like there was so much more media and so many more eyes on it, where in the past it had kind of been like, oh, it's a technically the world championships, but everyone kind of knew like not necessarily all the best runners were targeting on it, but it felt like almost all the all the elite runners were were there and giving a shot. So it just felt like way, way bigger and yeah, so so much positive energy. Yeah, like I can't the the US staff was so supportive and incredible, and yeah, hanging out with all these other like US team members. And sometimes you're at races and you're like with the same guys, and they're like the competition there. So it was really fun to be like, oh, they're we're all teammates now, and yeah, working together, got to got to know them a little bit better. It's really fun. Yeah, I got to room with uh Seth, so we we had a good time.
SPEAKER_00:Sweet. Hi, the boy, your boy, dude. I gotta ask you this. So doing the USA schemo kind of on the World Cup circuit, I guess a little bit last winter, and then kind of comparing it to maybe this experience for USA mountain running. How would you compare it? Like obviously it's a completely different experience, but is it just way more put together on the schemo side because now it's an Olympic sport? Like, how would you kind of square those two?
SPEAKER_01:I I guess I don't know exactly what you're asking, but they're they they they feel pretty comparable. Yeah. Like in some ways, like the the uh like the media side trail running has just gotten so big that it feels like I was at the like the ski mountaineering world championships, and like the the athletes aren't incredible and the levels so high, but it honestly feels like right now like trail running maybe has more more momentum.
SPEAKER_00:Really? That's what I was kind of asking. Like, do you like more so along the lines like has trail running really caught up in the sense like it seems like for this world a lot of folks, like specifically like the Spanish team, the Italian team, the French team, like really made it their um like those athletes take it quite seriously. But it seems like the USA has been doing really well. But also just on a world stage, the sport itself seems to have like really caught up and competes against some of those other um, maybe just like on a big stage, if you will, where it's a little bit different. Maybe it hasn't been in previous years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would I I would agree with that. And it felt definitely like on the on the same level with the you know, like the the calibre of athletes and how how seriously they're you know, they're pretty much all you know, the top schemo athletes are pretty much training full-time for schemo now. And same thing with these trailrunners that are targeting, like they're they're dialed to like picking their discipline and kind of like a lot of them were training all summer just to prepare for like the specific course at the world championships. And I think it's yeah, it's really cool to see that the like the level has just gotten so incredibly deep between all four of those disciplines.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. Are you going to it? Seems like I know Cam and company seems to have like are starting to transition back to the schemo stuff. I know you and I were talking before offline. You said Vermont's still a little warm. Hopefully you guys get, you know, start getting some fall weather soon. Um, are is the like kind of the goal for winter gonna be to transition back to schemo, or is it gonna be more full-time trail running? Like what are you like what are you gonna be doing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so right right now I'm just realizing that like the the trail running's been really fun. It's been I've had a good season, so uh like I'm actually I can kind of call myself a professional trail runner, and I like I love schemo and it's part of like I'm passionate about it. But right now for me, I think like trail trail running is maybe the the the bigger focus. Um that doesn't mean I'm won't be going over to Europe and doing some schema world cups. Um, but I'm gonna be targeting like schemo races more in March. Um I decided not to not to keep chasing like the Olympic dreams because it's like just the short events and I've have not been putting in the the work this summer to prepare for like the short disciplines and transitions and all that. And yeah, and not that excited or motivated right now to uh like start doing four hours a day of schemo transition training in in the yard. But uh I definitely want to get over there. I'm gonna team up with Cam Smith. We're gonna do Pyramento, like the four-day partner race, and I'll do a few like individual World Cups uh in March. So I've got a little more time to get ready for schemo. And I think I'm gonna like yeah, structure my my season around doing that in March and then kind of easing back into running and hopefully do a big build for Western states.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Oh wow, dude. Western states is gonna be it next year. That's exciting. That's uh that's that's the I mean, you obviously got a golden ticket before back at Canyons a few years back. Um, but this is this is it. You're gonna do it, which is really exciting. Are you are you super stoked for it, especially having like lived not too far from there in California?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's really cool just because I spent the like five winners out there and you know the the Western State Trail was in my backyard. And yeah, when I got that first golden ticket back in 2022, it was just such a such a quick turnaround, and it was my first hundred K. And I just like, yeah, wasn't wasn't totally sure that I wanted to or was gonna be ready to run 100 miles. So now it's been a few more years. I've been like, you know, following along, spent some more time training on the course, and just yeah, so so excited to go back. Uh definitely nervous about it's another jump in distance, and the the course and the heat will be like a totally different from a lot of the races I've done well on. So it's gonna be a huge challenge, but yeah, I'm really excited for it.
SPEAKER_00:I think where you live too is actually like not a bad place to train for it. Like just speaking, Vermont in general, like endless dirt roads, lots of you can get a decent amount of vertical like up down on those dirt roads as well. The only thing you have to square away is just a lot of time in the sauna. But outside of that, I think it's it's not a bad place at all to train and get ready for it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like the rolling steep dirt roads, actually, like plus plus plenty of trail, um, like ski rays and stuff. If you want to get really steep, there's there's plenty, like I think it's very underrated. We have some of the best like training for any kind of trail running in in the world right here. The the the biggest part will be getting ready for the heat because Vermont Vermont doesn't get the same kind of heat, and especially like in the in the spring, it can still be a little cold for a while. But yeah, we got we got access to a sauna and uh I gotta think about it a little bit more, but maybe like a a little targeted trip out sometime in the spring to like see the course or do a little more like Western training in the heat is definitely in the cards.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. Let's let's get into that a little bit at East Coast because I don't know. I've always I'm so happy that like you know, we've got yourself, Eric Lapuma, Dan Kurtz, like there's a good lineup and Lauren Gregory, although I think she's a boulder right now. But at least there's there's like a decent little contingent of Northeast trail runners at the professional level to put more um just to put to continue to put the northeast on the map. Like I think there's just such a good diversity of races there. There's such a good diversity of training grounds. Um, and I feel like you this year really just put it on the map, especially with the CCC performance and showing more people who you are and where you're from. Maybe talk a little bit about the East Coast and just like why it's special to you, why it's good training grounds and more of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm I'm I'm proud and I like training here. It's it's where I grew up and kind of like I owe the athlete that I am today to to growing up here with you know cross-country skiing in the winters, and yeah, we did a lot of our cross training and in the summer to get ready for ski season on the long trail or the appalacian trail and just like running the super gnarly, steep, technical, rooty, often muddy trails here. So I think it really does like if you can if you can train here and like you're up here, you can you can excel in any course. Um, so yeah, I think like in the in the pro running ranks in the US right now, like there's a lot of people that think like, oh, you gotta like you gotta live out west and you gotta be at be at altitude, especially because a lot of more of the like high profile races are at altitude. And I think maybe for some athletes it it helps a little bit to be training at altitude, but absolutely you don't you don't need to be like training in Boulder or yeah, somewhere somewhere in altitude to uh succeed. So it's been been pretty fun to move back here and yeah, back to my roots and show that you can still keep competing at the highest level training on the east coast.
SPEAKER_00:When you you can be as candid about this as you want, I'm just out of pure curiosity, because I I do feel like as an athlete in the sport, there is a bit of a brand bias with folks that either live front-range Colorado or in California or more so in the Pacific Northwest. Whereas I feel like less athletes get opportunities in the Northeast for some reason. I don't know what that is, but did you experience any of that when you were looking for a contract?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I yeah, I I I haven't had any issue, but I definitely think there are like a lot of incredible athletes in the East, and especially that are like really good at like specifically like East Coast, like super gnarly technical shell running, and maybe they don't have the same like web speed for flat running that absolutely like if we had a few more high profile races here, you'd see them like you know outperforming some of some some of the guys and women with contracts. So uh yeah, I definitely think the the East Coast could could get a little more credit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm excited because I mean now that the Cirque series is at least on the short trail side, it seems like it's like you could do a whole season short trail uh in the northeast between Mount Washington. Now there's Cirque Series races, you've got quite a few with the Ara Viper races and uh just other things. Like there's uh you know, even Loon, like Loon on a good year is super competitive. You won it this year and have raced it in the past. Like there's quite a few good Northeast races that I think are just like short trail wise, it's just they're very slept on.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely. Yeah, there's I mean, there's there's tons of tons of good races here, and they don't maybe get quite as much media coverage, but they're yeah, they're very challenging. And I did did I use a lot of them this year to like as kind of like test and just fitness builders in my my buildup for CCC and it it worked really well. Yeah, yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_00:I was surprised to see you see do Mount Washington. You think you go back and do that? Maybe obviously next year is gonna be different because that's right in the mix of uh Western states, but in the future, I mean, would you go back and do it, especially like more full course and not short course?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was my my second time running Mount Washington the the first year. I just had a really bad, bad race. I was like just excited to uh to give it another shot. So it was a little bit of a bummer that I shortened it to half half distance, although that ended up being really good prep for broken arrow the next week. But I definitely want to run run the full course on like a good weather year and see if I could get close to like one hour, like kind of mythical mark up the the auto road climb.
SPEAKER_00:It's true. It's such a cool course, too. Like I I'm gonna try to get in next year. Definitely want to do it one of these years at least. I want to try and like pair it with a Cirque series race so I can like do back-to-back weeks of racing while I'm out there, and I think that would it would be kind of neat. Um, dude, let's shift gears. Let's start, let's get into CCC. The first question I have for you outside of the performance and the race itself is like now that you are like a professional, professional in the sport and like you're doing your thing, is it still fun for you? Has anything changed? Is it different now being a professional or do you still love it?
SPEAKER_01:I still love it. Yeah. I think you know, it's like it's definitely a little different doing it full time, but like honestly, it's really awesome right now that I have have the flexibility to like, you know, work on recovery and have have as much time as I need. So I'm just yeah, running, running, skiing full-time right now. And it's been been been a relief to be like, I don't, I don't really need to like have a second full-time job. So it's allowing me to do all the little things, like make sure I'm getting in the gym, doing, doing heat training, doing mobility and yoga, like taking a nap, but I'm doing doubles. And uh yeah, like those little things definitely add up. So it's been been fun to uh to see how it goes. And yeah, right now it's working well. So like when it's when it's going well, it's really, really fun. Like when you get a little injured or like you're not getting the results you want, then all of a sudden you're like, wow, it's really tough being a pro runner. So I can't can't complain right now because I'm I'm feeling pretty strong and yeah, my results have been good. So uh yeah, it's fun. I try to like keep some balance in the training where like it was a little bit of a grind in the buildup to CCC because I had to be really careful building mileage with the like coming off patellotendinitis. So it was a lot of just like grinding hours on on the road bike, just because that was lower impact. And then like some really targeted, like I'd go to the go to the local ski area in Mount Ellen and just like be running laps on the uh the work road because I knew that was what was gonna simulate uh and prepare me for CCC the best. So like I I don't want to be doing that all the time, but for like two months in my my buildup to a CCC where it was like I was feeling some pressure, but yeah, it was a good challenge. I like I like the challenge of like figuring out how to like pick a race and how to you know be smart about preparing for it. But I but yeah, I also like some some variety, so it's been fun like the last month or so since CCC to have a little more flexibility and training and just be like going exploring the the local trails and yeah, having fun in the in the east coast mountains. We've had a like the super dry, like incredible stretch of weather, and it's been like we're definitely in a drought right now, so that's not good. But in terms of like trail running, like the trails are all dry and fast, and yeah, it's been just a lot of beautiful days. So I've been just yeah, loving being a road runner and just going out and yeah, training a bunch and enjoying the Vermont Mountains. Doing the thing. I love it. Do you go up Mansfield at all?
SPEAKER_00:Like, is that too is that far from you?
SPEAKER_01:Or it's only like 40 minutes, so I need to get up there more often.
SPEAKER_00:It's a sweet mountain. I did it for the first time this past summer, and it was like, wow. Like I I just did the service road climb to I guess that like branch off trail above uh below the uh or I guess above the uh lift, and then took like that technical trail to the ridge, and I was like, this is awesome for the northeast. This is dope. So yeah, there's there's good stuff out there. Yeah. All right, let's let's talk more CC Occ and CCC. I gotta ask you this. What was the reason? Because you're such a good 50k runner, like not just the best we have in the United States, but like one of the best in the world. What made you choose CCC over OCC?
SPEAKER_01:Mainly just that like I wanted a new a new challenge. So I thought that like I knew I could on a good day have a have a great result in OCC, but yeah, like the 100k CCC just seemed like a bigger, a bigger, newer challenge. And yeah, I was I was excited to because it had been since 2022 was the last time I tried a 100k and it like it went pretty well, but I was also like a little bit crushed and got kind of injured coming off of it. And yeah, I just wanted to wanted to structure my whole season around CCC as it just felt it felt like a little more prestigious as a race than OCC. And yeah, it definitely scared me to to be going up in distance and against like such a such an international, like deep field that yeah, it just was was the thing that captured my imagination and yeah, had got me, had me motivated to put up put a whole summer towards training for it.
SPEAKER_00:Let's talk about the competition. Obviously, it's no secret, like you and Eli have had like it's been really fun since JFK last year to see you guys kind of go at it in this like really fun best of the best, who's the best American 50 mile to 50k athlete. It's been really cool. Uh, what was it like being not just teammates with him on Team USA this year, but also like competing with him back and forth? You got it seems like he gets the best of you sometimes, you get the best of him sometimes. It's very close. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's definitely one of those things where I think we've both been like, oh man, we keep choosing the same races just for like totally independent reasons. But yeah, I've been trying to like it can be like, oh man, Eli's there again and he beat me. Like it would have been like broken air. It's like, oh, it could have been a big win if Eli hadn't showed up. But uh it's it's fun to be pushing each other. And yeah, he's he's a great guy, so it was really fun to like at worlds to be on on the same team as him. Unfortunately, we didn't like he he was just gone, so I I never saw him out on on course the whole day. But uh yeah, it's been been a fun, fun little back and forth between him.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know when we'll we'll meet meet next next, but I don't want to call it a rivalry, but it's like one of the coolest American rivalries in short trail that like, or like I guess Ultra now that we kind of have. It's kind of neat. I don't know. It's fun to follow you too. Um, like I said, especially since JFK, like it's always so close. Let's talk, um, all right, let's get into the race proper, starting in core my air. I think I heard on another podcast, and maybe you can tell a little bit more to this, just because I know it's always a circus at these races. Did you so I guess you stayed over in Cormac Air before the race? Is that correct? And then and before the start?
SPEAKER_01:Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, we I spent two weeks in like Shamini before the race getting ready, and I previewed all like the entire course and a few of the key parts that I was concerned about, like two to three times. So it was really good to spend that time over there, be like totally adjusted to the climate and the time change. And then just to avoid the zoo, we went over and stayed in the hotel the night before uh in Kormyyer, which was like, man, wake up and I think I like I left the hotel at like 8 20 in the morning for a nine o'clock start. It was the two-minute walk. So that was pretty great in terms of like logistics and just like ease of ease of getting over there.
SPEAKER_00:What did you think of the zoo? Like the media hype, the media circus before? Like, did you have a lot of like did craft have you doing stuff that you had to do, like to meet fans and stuff like that, or was it pretty low-key for you?
SPEAKER_01:I think we were a little more low-key as a brand. Like, we weren't doing a lot of like group runs and stuff, but like I I'm definitely not like super, super social and don't love like putting myself out there. So I like to like when I'm there at a race, I'm there to there to race. And honestly, like the more under the radar I can be, like it's just easier for my personality. So so being there with craft and like you know, going out to do some photo shoots and some some filming and and interviews, I definitely like was not like having a ton of that kind of. Of stuff, but it definitely was like different being at a such a big race and being there with the whole craft team. But yeah, it was overall it was awesome because they had like they brought up physio and they were you know just like yeah taking taking care of me, but also like the flip side is definitely when like when you're being being treated so well and like you definitely feel feel the pressure a little bit. So it was my like first like really big like race since being sponsored by craft and I definitely like was ready for the race to start just like you know I was nervous like you've been pouring your soul into training for this race for like the last three months and had some ups, ups and downs, but you're like you know that like okay, on the right day, you can definitely deliver a podium, but you know, you you want to do it, you're putting that pressure on yourself. So I was I was quite ready to uh just get the get the gun to go off and start running like that whole last week while I was just like tapering and kind of waiting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm sure, dude. I I couldn't imagine just like the it's the long wait. Uh and by the way, it's so much fun following that race on like the with the live stream and stuff like that. Like, I think UTMB does an amazing job, especially on like for CCC. What is that? It's that first 4,500 foot climb or whatever it is coming out of Cormaill, and just watching you guys bury yourselves. Like it's it's it's pretty cool to follow along. I I know you said there was some nerves at the start line, but damn, those races go off so fast. Like, obviously, it's not your first time racing in Europe. You've raced in Europe a bunch, but like was it faster than normal? Was it within range? Like, how did you establish position? Like, what were all the things going off in maybe the first few miles for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely it started fast, and you know, like it just when you're you know it's gonna be a 10 plus hour race. So you're definitely like have to just like if you if you feel good, you just kind of go with the flow and you're like you know that it's not necessarily an effort that you're gonna be able to sustain the whole way. But I was I was hoping to be a little smarter and maybe like let the let the leaders get further ahead and just kind of run my own race. But in the heat of the moment, I was feeling like really good with adrenaline and everything, and it just kind of like I knew I was working hard, but it just felt good. So I ended up staying staying up in the top 10 and kind of worked my way up to the lead group by the top of that climb and then just yeah, was just kind of enjoying it. So uh it was really fun running in like the lead pack for the first five hours with yeah, Eli and Francesco and Drew, and we were definitely just like feeling good rolling along, and then all of some like it started to get hot uh after uh you know, like 40k or whatever, and there's like the 12, there's like 20k of mostly downhill before you do the climb up to Sean Bexlock, and we were all like all of a sudden I think like we were moving pretty well, and especially like Francesco was pushing the pace because he's such a good on that like the road sections and the gradual down, and the rest of us were getting a little uncomfortable. But at that point, like I've been running near the lead pack for four hours, you know, I'm just gonna like let anyone go at that point. And then uh we finally started to climb, and my legs felt great climbing up to Shuntach's lack, so it was awesome. I was in the lead and it was like, wow, I have a chance to maybe win this thing. But uh yeah, Francesca like just blew that that aid station and got a little bit of lead on me. And I was like, Oh, I'll I'll I'll just keep running my raise and he'll come back on the next climb. But he he never came back, came back, and it it started to get like five and a half hours, and it went from feeling like hard but really good to also being like, Oh, I'm tired, my legs hurt, my my feet hurt, I still have so far to go. Did I make a huge mistake going out this hard? But it you just had to like keep keep pushing and like as you said, it was incredible because they had I think it was an advantage being in the lead because it meant you got a lot of like the camera runners and the bikers following you. So like I'd be going through a rough patch and being like, uh oh, like Francesco's now like five, six minutes up on me all of a sudden, and I'm sure guys are behind me closing hard, and but then you know the camera runner would be behind you, and he's like, you know, giving you like oh, you still got six minutes on third place and you look good and reminding you to like keep taking your gels, all those little things. So, like definitely like you'd have rough patches and just having you know fans and camera runners and all that stuff, like fake it till you make it. If if if you got the camera on you, then probably there are people watching, so you you try to look a little bit a little bit better, you know, run a little bit faster, and then next thing you know, you're actually feeling better. But yeah, that the the whole the whole experience was just you know incredible. And I was digging really deep, kind of like getting dizzy and everything was hurting. I was on the verge of cramping up, and yeah, I I didn't know if I was gonna be able to hold on to the podium until like literally when I got into Shamini.
SPEAKER_00:That's so crazy. How did it feel running for 10 hours, dude? Like that's a really long time, it's not a short period of time. Like, did it go by fast for you? Did you pop in music, or were you just like in your own head the whole time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was just in my own head the whole time, and like it sounds longer in retrospect than it felt out there because you're just you're so engaged the whole time about you know, with the variety of the course, you're thinking about like, is this the right pace for the climb? Or, you know, trying to remember your your fueling strategy, and you know, am I am I drinking enough? Am I having enough gels? All those kind of things, and then like you know, navigating the downhills carefully. I felt like you just kind of chunked it up into sections and yeah, it definitely it didn't like thinking back, it was really long, but at the time I was never like, oh my gosh, I've been running so long. It's more just like the fear when you're getting tired, like six, seven hours in, you're like, wait, I still have a like over a marathon to go. Oh, thinking about that sense. Like you I tried to not, yeah, not think about that. Just like just knowing the course is really helpful because I could just like chunk it up. Okay, I know what this next climb is like, and then you reset and you're like, okay, this next downhill is this techie bit, or there's a little flatter section where I'm gonna try to like you know open up the stride a little bit. Um yeah, so it definitely, definitely was a long time, but yeah, by by like those little mental tricks just to keep yourself engaged and keep yourself pushing, I think are the are the way to get through it. But it never it never felt like, oh my gosh, like I've been running for so long.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I wonder too, like, and you can maybe you can provide some more commentary to this, like when Francesco kind of broke the race open and got a little ahead of you, uh especially it's probably I don't know. Obviously, you're worried about getting caught, but at the same time, you're still in pursuit, trying to catch him, I would imagine. Like, still in that grind of all right, if he's five or six minutes, how do I close this? Was it more how do I close, or was it more how do I hold on when you were kind of in those positions?
SPEAKER_01:I think for like, yeah, the maybe, maybe like until uh was it triant, I think. Yeah, yeah. There, then there's the big climb there. I think like I've been the like I've been trying to keep myself in like mentally in there. I knew like I was using the poles and Francesco was just running, and I was like, well, eventually I think it's gonna catch up to him. Like he's such a good runner, but like, especially a few of those late climbs like out of Treant are just so steep that I was, you know, banking that if I just keep running smart, sticking to my healing plan, and just like you know, keep keep believing in myself, there's a chance that he comes back. And then I think like leaving trianth, I'd been like I'd done that super steep climb in training, and I was like, oh, if I if I could just like you know, feel like I did and on that training day, like I could put down like a really good time, close a big gap. But instead, like you were just so much more tired than than you think. So, like the entire last 30 plus k like I was going much slower than even my like easy training run on the course, and you're just like, oh, I'm like I'm working hard, I'm so tired, but I just like you know, there's there's nothing left, you can't even get your heart rate up. So it it went from like I got splits, then I was like 10 plus minutes back, and I definitely just switched to like, okay, no, don't need any heroics, but just like keep it together, don't totally implode. So I yeah, I think around trianth I switched to survival mode, try to hold on to to second or at least the podium. And kind of because we dropped Drew just before like the Chompex lock on that climb. So I knew he was still like in the hunt, but I wasn't it wasn't like him specifically. I wasn't getting good splits. I think there was like the French guy who ended up fourth. I think people were saying he was closing really hard. So he was kind of the the guy that I was had heard the most most about. And then yeah, I I looked back, it started raining, it was like kind of cold getting up to La Flagère, and it was actually like a little like that was maybe one of the hard parts because I think everyone's hanging out in Shamani for the finish. So there were just like almost no fans. Remember, like one group of people that were like blaring music, like something like born in the USA, and that that got me going. But but the rest of that climb was pretty lonely, and I'd been having all these random splits, like someone would say, You still got 10 minutes, and then it would hear, like, it's only seven, they're closing really hard. So you're just trying to like keep it together. But I got up to La Flagere, looked back, and it's kind of open because it's at the top of the ski area, and I couldn't see anyone. So then I was like, Well, I must have it like at least four four minutes to third place, and so from there I just switched to okay, like I gotta get down the the top half of that like descent from La Flagere is really roody and technical. It was getting dark with the rain, like just kind of slippery, and yeah, like my coordination had totally gone. So it was like, okay, I like I I can't go slow down this, but I also can't like completely trip and like eat it hard because then I'll be limping all the way in, or I might not might not even finish. So that that first two miles of the descent were were so tough, like every step. I think I was like, I kept kicking the roots and things, and yeah, my my feet were hurting, and then then it finally opened up and there were there were a few fans out there telling me like Drew's closing really hard, like you can't you you can't cruise it in. So I'd like I booked it back down. I think my watch was telling me I was doing like under five minute miles again on that like last mile descent. Just like I've you know, you've been battling for 10 hours, and you're like, you don't want to like, you know, if if you can get if it comes down to five seconds, you don't want to wanna have any regrets. But uh yeah, got the last kilometer and shamini was just like totally lined. Like the most incredible experience, like having that many fans out was pretty surreal. But yeah, like I I had to keep running hard like until the last 300 meters because I I didn't know how how much of a gap I had.
SPEAKER_00:That's crazy. It's so crazy to think, too, in a 62 mile or whatever race, like it's wire to wire in a lot of ways. Like you're you're racing start to finish, which is kind of crazy to think, too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I like I I definitely like I I needed just about everything I had. I think like I I felt like I closed and finished out pretty strong, but Drew was just flying, and I think he'd come from like 10 minutes back to about two at the finish. So another another mile or two, and I probably would have been passed. And then like the women's race was even crazier with how close it was. That was like I didn't really get to see any of that play out, but just yeah, looking at the recaps, like to have four women kind of like within seconds and minutes of each other the entire way going back and forth. It's just yeah, it's really cool how how close some of these races have been that you don't you don't necessarily know until the very end what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the level is just so crazy. And the women's race, yeah, dude. Like the all that descent off a lot for Jerry you were describing. Um, dude, passes back and forth. And it was, I mean, it's crazy too, because like, yeah, you're finishing in Chamani and there's thousands of people out there screaming you on, but the think about like all of the people too, like watching the live stream cheering you on, like there had to have been multiple thousands, which is kind of crazy too. So yeah, it's it's I don't know, it's become such a an event.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was kind of like I I think I looked at the live stream like they had the replay up and it says like 250,000 people tune in. I was like, whoa, I don't think I've ever seen a trail race that had 250,000 people tune in. So that was that was pretty cool. So I was like kind of regretting, like, oh maybe, maybe I would have done better to uh like hang back more at the start and try to like run a smart race and be closing super hard. But in retrospect, like I think it it played out really well because that was like right up front and it made it made the race exciting. I got a lot of coverage by uh by being in that lead pack. And I think it's like it's just like it's a pretty fine line between uh like running a smart race versus like just going for broke and trying to hold on. I think like putting yourself up there and being in the front pack, like it may not be the smartest strategy from like a physiological standpoint or on the mental side to like be be near the front and mixing it up is kind of huge for being able to dig deep and get the most out of yourself. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Like I said, it was so much fun to follow. What were the uh what were the emotions like crossing the finish line? Like, I mean, obviously throughout the race, you're going through every emotion imaginable, probably. So when you finish, like what went through your head? Like I need a big nap, or I'm hungry, like like what were you thinking?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, mostly just relief, honestly. Like it just felt so so grateful and accomplished because like I definitely had had set this out and like put myself out there for the the whole like the whole running season that I this was my A goal. And yeah, like the the plan, the summer, like I talked about, like it hadn't hadn't really gone like exactly how I wanted to, but I I knew I got to the starting line fit. And but anything can happen. Like, you know, all takes one bad step, you you twist your ankle or take a fall, or like your stomach's a little off and nutrition isn't going down, and you know, all those months of work and like honestly, like years of work, right? Like can't don't necessarily like pan out. So I was just yeah, super, super relieved to have like worked so hard and actually like so so grateful to get the result. But uh yeah, it's pretty pretty cool. Just like yeah, the the scene with the fans and I I was exhausted, so I got started just kind of started drinking water and coke right away because I had to go like a meet go to the drug testing, and then I think it took like two hours by the time like the the us like top three guys had gone through drug testing. So it was like 11 o'clock when I got home and I just was so tired. Like the I think it was like the longest day. Like I've never had a had a race that like you start like first thing in the morning and then like it's dark out and like nighttime, but you're done, so you're just like you're pretty empty. So I I just went home and yeah, definitely like the the caffeine and the adrenaline, it was like hard to sleep, but I was just so exhausted. So I didn't I didn't do anything after the race besides wait at wait two hours to pee in a cup and then go home.
SPEAKER_00:So no hanging out in the French clubs going wild. All right. No, unfortunately. Is it a little weird after the fact? Like we like we talked about in the live stream, like now 250 plus thousand people know who David Sinclair is. What is that like when you're walking around the streets of Sham? Are like people saying, like, trying to take photos with you? Are they trying to like introduce themselves to you like after the race? Is is that a little strange?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's yeah, I think it's not that big of a deal. Like maybe, maybe a few niche people like recognize me because they're like big fans of Ultra Running, but it's not it's not been that different. It was fun to like go to the award ceremony the next day, and I got to give a few like autographs and take pictures with some of like the young kids. So it's that's really fun. And like to think that oh, oh, they they think I'm cool and are like inspired by by what I'm doing. But in terms of like day to day, I can, you know, I'm no no one really knows who I am unless they're like a fan of Ultra Running.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool, it's definitely cool. Well, let's let's pivot back to the race really quick. One of the things I didn't ask you was about nutrition. Like, what was the nutrition plan for you? And like what were you kind of like eating the whole time?
SPEAKER_01:I just tried to do uh like mostly gels. So I did like some some scratch and the and the flask at first for like electrolytes, and then uh the plan was to do like one of the science and sport like gels every 30 minutes for as long as I could. And uh yeah, it worked pretty well. I kind of stayed on that for the first like five, six hours, and then you just get like flavor fatigue of things. So like as I got more and more tired, like I would look at the wash and be like, okay, it's time for gel. But I, you know, like I'd I'd soak down half a gel and be like, ooh, like I don't know if I really want this. But then like 10 minutes later, you'd be like, wait, I maybe I do feel a little bit better. So even though like at the time, like you're just forcing yourself to keep getting like these gel and liquid carbs down. And like it makes you think you're gonna puke for a second, but like as soon as you stop fueling, like the energy just goes down and it never comes back up. So like the whole the whole summer I was just been working on, like, yeah, trying to get up to or like you know, 80, 100 grams of carbs an hour in my long runs, and I was able to stick to that for like the first you know, seven hours of the race, and then I think I kind of kind of let the fueling go a bit all bit, just because like you're tired, you're not thinking clearly, and like it just isn't fun anymore to keep pounding those gels. But yes, I added a little bit of caffeine, I'd do like Coca-Cola at the eight stations, and then the the main like thing that had me a little worried was I did a I should do my first sweat test, like I was just about to ask you that the day before the race. And I've never had issues with cramping and like I don't feel like my I don't get like tons of sweat stains or anything, so I was not I wasn't too worried about being like one of these extremely salty sweaters, but the the sweat test result came back that I was like, you know, like on the on the sweaty, like saltier side of normal. And I was like, oh, maybe my plan doesn't have enough electrolytes in it. So I I was I tried to like up my like electrolyte intake a little bit, like tweaking last minute the nutrition plan. And then of course, like during the race, I just like I I was doing like the electrolytes in my in my liquid, um, but water was just tasting way, way better. So I like I kind of left all my sports drink flask and just switched to drinking water uh for the last few hours of the race, and it, you know, was was a lot easier to get like water down than yeah, sweet tasting liquid.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. So you I mean you said something along the lines of like having some cramp issues as well. Do you think that was like related to any hydration stuff, like more like staying off the electrolytes? Or the reason I ask is like this is like a super something I'm super fascinated with. I just did my first sweat test as well and found out I'm like, I'm an extremely salty sweater. And so it's it's uh it's an interesting aspect of it, which is cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I th I think it's interesting and it's cool to see like that people are really like paying more attention to it. And I yeah, I think you just gotta figure out what what works for you. Like if you don't wanna you don't want to lose like sleep over like not believing in your nutrition plan. So like do you gotta do what you what you have available, but definitely like looking forward to Western states, it's one of the things I think there's still room for improvement, especially like in an even longer and hotter race where like the the line between like you know upsetting your stomach with too much fuel or too much like you know electrolytes in the drinks and also like cramps or like completely cratering the race because you're not fueling and hydrating properly can totally like can turn into hours or like you know, can cause a potential podium to be to be a DNF. It's something I I'm gonna start working on. So I like have have plans to at least like start a sweat log and do a few more sweat tests and yeah, start start monitoring my my sweat sweat rate so that I know I'm staying hydrated. I think I I think I would like to try doing like electrolyte tabs maybe in the future. Just because like if if you get sick of like whatever drink you have has electrolytes in it and you just want water, then you can at least like choke down the electrolyte tabs and you don't have to worry about like the flavor or the sweetness that comes with a sport drink. So I think the more you can the more you can maybe like compartmentalize. Like you've got I like gels because like you just know exactly how many carbs are in a packet and you can just be like, okay, like the wash beeped, it's been 30 minutes. I'm just gonna chug this gel. And then you can have just like your water separate, and you're just trying to like, you know, drink to thirst or like stay on a whatever, like try to replenish what you're sweating out. And then same thing, like just do electrolyte tabs or something, or caffeine tabs if if you're trying to add caffeine. So like you can have everything be independent, might be I haven't done this in the past, but I think that's like after doing like this race and being like, oh, I got sick of the this the taste of the sports drink, but I still knew I needed electrolytes, so it would be give you more flexibility to just like yeah, have everything separated out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I almost feel like, dude, I mean it's hard to say because like obviously CCC is a completely different race. But if it's a hot day, you know, it's only what four more hours longer than CCC is something like a Western States if you're running in that, you know, where you would expect maybe four great.
SPEAKER_01:Hopefully, yeah, that would that would be nice.
SPEAKER_00:But which is crazy too to think about. It's like, holy shit, that's like a whole other 38 more miles or whatever. But anyway, it's um yeah, it's interesting. But you know, I don't know. I I think it's almost easier because there's so many more crew point accesses as well to be able to, you know, you don't have to really wear a pack, like you could just wire handhelds, you know, you can wear a belt. It's um I feel like Western States is almost an easier thing to be a gamer for, whereas like CCC I feel like is a bit can be a bit more complicated.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know that's a good that's a good point. I see like both sides of like the flexibility at Western States that like there's no mandatory like equipment and you have some money options, it gives you it gives you more flexibility. And I think like it was definitely in some ways nice with CC because you're like, well, like you just you need to pack because you've got all this mandatory gear and you have to go, you know, like five and a half hours to get to the first crew point. So like definitely it felt like a lot at the start because I was like, okay, I knew I wanted to do gels, but it's like then I'm like you know, counting out and making the plan like, okay, I need to carry 12 gels. And it's like, where am I gonna put them all? But uh yeah, so there are there are pros and cons uh of either system, but definitely like the yeah, the the heat is what I'm definitely most, you know, worried about and why I think like I need to be even more focused on like the nutrition and the hydration because it's just like I think that the heat of western states, if you allow your like electrical imbalance or yourself to get too dehydrated, you're just you know the extra four hours plus the heat means it's a an even bigger factor than it is at CCC. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting. I feel like I mean, for a race like that, you definitely have to be a gamer in the sense of like you've got to be dialed in with your stuff. Did you watch any of the like the David or David Roche stuff? Uh he like put up a bunch of like he was pretty good with sharing a lot of his uh like the heat training and stuff like he he was doing in Boulder. And some of it was actually like really groundbreaking stuff. It was like this is this is different and interesting. So there's definitely stuff out there that I think like others have done to like help and share some of it, but I don't know. You also gotta find what works for you.
SPEAKER_01:I I think there's probably two sides to it, and I think like a lot of people go maybe even over the board now with the heat training, and it's like if you like the science says if you get like three, you know, you get a lot of adaptations just doing like three 30 minutes on a sessions, you know, a week. So I think I will I'll I'll do some targeted heat training, but the more I just haven't done a lot of hot races, so the rather than like spending tons of hours in a heat suit or like you know going to the desert and you know, you know, training in 100 degree weather all the time, I think just like keep keep the heat training in there. So I already do some sauna training, so I'll definitely keep doing that. But then just like actually practicing the like the heat mitigation strategies are like where you want to be spending your energy. So like figuring out like, is it better to like you know have some slushy type stuff at aid station, like actually ingest the ice, or do you, you know, do you want to wear the vest and the the ice bandana and just load that down, or do you just want to like be jumping in like ice water, like little kiddie pools? And you know, like I think the main thing is like once you get once you start to feel overheated, you're gonna like have a have a rough patch at Western States. So everyone that I've talked to that says like they they thought it went well and like the heat wasn't a big issue. They say that they were like just taking on ice at every aid station, not even like just the ones that have crew access, they were taking the extra 30 seconds to like take some more ice on board. And they said they look they just they had so much ice and cold water on them all day that they never actually felt hot out there.
SPEAKER_00:So that's the way to do it.
SPEAKER_01:That's yeah, I I I tend to get really hot and like I I used to just think that like, oh, like I'm not good in heat, and then like by embracing a little bit of like doing the sauna training and you know, just like trying to change my mindset around it, I found that I like I can do pretty well even in like somewhat hot races. It's just I've never tried to race you know as long in extreme heat. Like I think it's like it's different for like a Jim Wolms who grew up in like Phoenix and read, like, oh like the heat's no big deal, but I grew up in Vermont to where like, oh, it's 76 degrees out, like it's it's a hot one. It's pretty tough.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, you gotta you gotta wear uh well actually I gotta ask you, what was it like racing in that Nike ACG shirt? I was gonna say you gotta just like take the USA part off of it and just put craft on it and just rock one of those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they they were kind of fun, just more of like for the just for like the they they gave us those the day before the race, and we were talking as a team, we're like, oh, we're we're kind of excited to try these out. So we decided we were all gonna wear them. And I think it maybe does actually work a little bit. Like we put them on in the hotel room, and like there's a little breeze, we're like, Oh, I feel kind of cold. And then so we were actually worried, like we thought they were stylish, but uh it was like it was like 37 degrees at the start. So we were actually like, Are we gonna be too cold in these things? And I had like my arm warmers on underneath it, and like a hat on at the start of the race, and then like it was only 40 degrees out, but 10 minutes in the race, I was like super hot already. So I took off the hat and and the arm warmers, and yeah, I didn't I didn't I didn't notice it working as much like during the race as like in the hotel room, but like it I didn't overheat out there, but it wasn't a particularly hot day, so they're they're they they look absolutely ridiculous. I think I got we we all got a lot of cheers for uh for wearing them.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's a fashion statement. That I I don't know what to think of it. I'm not sure yet, but they're definitely it's definitely unique and different, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was like uh we were like joking about should I should I put it up on eBay and see if someone will uh pay a thousand dollars for one of these things because I can't ever wear it again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's true. That's true. I mean if you're gonna if there's a shirt to frame for like a U at Team USA, that's probably it, but it's I think I'd probably want to keep it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's dope. Like I said, nobody can I don't think anybody can get them yet, and other than like Team USA and then the ACG athletes.
SPEAKER_01:So there's definitely I'm sure they'll release them probably by by next year. But yeah, they're they're they're pretty funny. And it's like I guess like you've seen people do the whole like holes in shirts for a while, but I think uh I think we'll probably see more more companies coming out with like you know, at least like cooling type shirts, even if they don't do it like exactly the same way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:On the topic of that, craft, how has it been like working with them now? Like, do you have to I don't know, as much as you can answer this, like from shoe testing and stuff like that. Are you getting involved with that, or is it you know, more hands off with that? Like, how how has it been so far working with them?
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, I probably can't talk too much about details, but it's been like it's been awesome. So I I raced in like a their prototype like carbon plated gravel trail racer, and uh the shoe is like absolutely incredible, and it's just the first version. So uh it was really fun like sitting down with the the shoe developers after CCC and like telling them what I liked about it, hearing their ideas, what they're gonna try in the next version. And uh like yeah, it's it's pretty fun being with Kraft. They're like, you know, they're like one of the smaller shoe companies, I'd say. So as one of the athletes, it's really fun that you can like actually be like heavily involved and give them feedback, and I can tell them I would I would like to see this, this, and this. And they're like, okay, we've got we've got all these ideas. Well, we're gonna send you some more shoes, and you can tell us what you like and what you don't like. So yeah, it's been been really great working with them. So cool, man.
SPEAKER_00:It's a great company. I mean, I gotta say, like, one of the things I really appreciated and liked was like especially David Laney's involvement, not just as an athlete, and how after, you know, as he I don't know, ages in the sport and he may maybe some point in time when he steps away from being an athlete, there's a job waiting for him to kind of be involved with the company, which is something I really like. I see them do the you know, Sportiva did that with Anton as well. I kind of like that there's a path after you're done being an athlete to kind of move on and do other things internally, which I think is kind of neat.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's been cool. So, yeah, with with with David Lane, they've been keeping him on there, and like with with Tim Tolfson, kind of maybe going going more towards the race director role, and they're they're keeping him on. So yeah, they're they're a great company. Part of like part of why I signed was when I was a skier going up, like the one article of photo thing you just had to have in Vermont was the Kraft wind briefs, so you don't freeze when you're wearing like a spandex race ski suit. And so like they're they they make good gear. I still have like from when I was like 13, 14 starting out ski racing, like my my craft wind brief underwear, and they're still totally functional. So, like you know, they do a good job designing their clothes and yeah, make make good durable gear. Super cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they make good stuff, man. Um and I'm excited for what the future is, especially with like some of the shoe tech. And dude, what the brands are coming out with these days, man. There's all kinds of like the shoes have evolved like crazy. It's nuts.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think uh I don't know. I was I was skeptical. at first and I'd like until about a year ago like signing with craft I'd never like run in a like any kind of like whatever super shoe carbon plated anything and I was I was pretty skeptical like that they like they would really work that well on the on the trails and especially for like the more runnable like CCC type courses western states where it's not super technical so you're not like the main thing that makes me nervous is like if you have too much foam and too much dack height it's just like I'll I'll twist my ankle but like the yeah so some of these shoes are just they run so well and they just like they they definitely pay off in in the long run like cushioning your legs and just keep you moving when when your legs get tired. So it's it's it's a fun time right now like where the shoes are better than they've ever been and only getting better. So cool.
SPEAKER_00:Dude one last thing I want to get to um off of craft um I want to move on to one thing that you did this boot spur VK that I I heard talking about on Run the Whites. I know you get out and do a lot of like local stuff in Mount Washington but just maybe talk about that route because I don't know I I'm just very inspired by a lot of these like northeast VK routes and stuff like that as of late.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah no it's just like one of those things where I like I I really like ski the white because they hooked me up with like skis and stuff. And they like I think it's maybe the second year they do like every month throughout the summer and into the fall they'll they'll do a different like Strava segment challenge. So uh yeah I've been wanting to get over to to run uh Mount Washington again. So they had this VK segment up uh Bootsburg which is like most of the way up to the top of Mount Washington. Um and it's just like super steep. It's like it ended up being two and a half miles and almost exactly a vertical kilometer. But it's just like roody and rocky and like totally gnarly. So I got to go over there a couple weeks ago and do it as like one of my final uh tune up workouts before heading to worlds and uh yeah it's it's it's a legit like super steep super hard VK and I think like a few hundred people went out and did their challenge. So like you know it's it's like a course where you probably couldn't host a real race on but for like a time trial VK thing it's just yeah it's so fun to get the get the community out there. So it was yeah fun to fun to be a part of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah dude I love the stuff they're doing the run the whites 100 or no what is it the white some white white mountain yeah they did the white mountain 100 which is like the yeah like would be the hard ass hundred mile or like possible because you can't hold you can't hold a race on it.
SPEAKER_01:So people have been going for FKTs for a few years and they did a yeah like a whole supported thing to so a bunch of you could go for go for it at the same time and yeah they they put on cool events.
SPEAKER_00:So cool one last question really too I wanted to ask you uh about CCC. I know you were trying to like there's some stuff where you had to been hands off and not get too crazy in your in your mileage buildup and obviously I looked you lurked your Strava but like what like were you doing a ton of like threshold work like just a ton of volume? Like what were what what did your weeks look like in the buildup?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I kept like just week to week I kind of kept it pretty consistent. I came right like I came off a big winter racing skiing and I already felt like pretty fit. I had to take a little break when I was like when the tendonitis kind of flared up and then pretty quickly I realized that I could run like uphill a little bit without flaring it up so I was doing a lot on the treadmill and that's why I did like the uh the Mount Washington road race and went out to Broken Arrow and I was like okay I'm gonna do the uh the ascent and then maybe I'll start the uh like start the 46k and if it like my knee hurts on the downhill I'll just drop out. So I was doing like the first half of summer I was just riding my road bike and doing uphill running mostly and then by like July it was going well enough that I started doing a little bit more like up down adding more vert and uh but I think I kept it pretty steady at around like 20 20 hours of aerobic work like kind of throughout the whole summer. And I come from like the cross country skiing background. So yeah generally like you structure like kind of like two hard workouts a week and then everything else is mostly like easier aerobic volume. And then I got in the gym. So I started like a lot of threshold like yeah you know five six minutes uphill on the treadmill or you know like 10 minutes like on a trail going uphill. And then the last month I tried as the knee got better, I just slowly started doing more running and a little bit less on the bike but I didn't go like to all running until maybe like the last two weeks when I got over to Chamonix was like the first time the whole summer I felt like I could actually run like day in and day out and not have it flare up the knee. And so I think like my biggest week was probably like right around 100 miles running but you know with 20 something thousand feet of vertical like checking out the course. And that kind of seems to be like the sweet spot for me if I do if I try to do much more than that, I think I'm just like I start to get really tired and like the recovery goes out the window. So like I I coach myself and you know like you know you never know how it's gonna go but I try to just like be really responsive. Like the the basic principles are the same and you know you're just trying to like keep the keep the aeropic base really high and then uh like for something like CCC you got to make sure the legs are durable enough to like keep keep going up and down and like still still moving because like as as we saw in the race it was like my first time I think getting like good data from 100k where I was running pretty close to like threshold like my heart rate went over 180 beats a minute a couple times on that first like hour plus climb and even on like the the second climb to the high point and the climb to Sean Beck's lock like my heart rate was the whole time climbing and like in the 170 beats. And then like as I got tired if you look at the data like my heart rate's just going slowly down and down as you as you fatigue you can't keep up the effort anymore. So like you gotta to definitely have the up to 100k like you gotta be you got to be really fit. So I think you need like you need a high uphill running threshold um to be able to stay with a lead pack on those climbs. And then the trick is like okay to like you know be able to be able to do that and then not like fade super super hard. So yeah definitely like I I respond well to threshold training and like you can you can do a lot more threshold training than you can uh you know like even harder intervals so I try to I try to get a good volume of threshold for like my two hard workouts a week. But uh as I got close like I was doing this once a week workout at Mount Ellen ski area and so I was kind of trying to go like okay like maybe like optimistic 100k pace like or like 100k pace for the early climbs when I would go up and it's like a three mile climb with like 2500 feet of and then I'd run back down and be like okay if that was hard can I do it again and then like okay come back the next week. I did it twice last week can I do it three times can I do it four times and so like my hardest workout was I think like a five hour run with 10,000 for over 25 miles. Damn just lapping the ski area.
SPEAKER_00:If you don't mind me asking what is your threshold heart rate? I'm just so curious.
SPEAKER_01:Oh that's a like it's a good question but it really like it varies day to day. So like when I'm super fresh like on on the start line it's probably like you know it's it's up around like 180 beats a minute like I just ran. I did I did a half marathon yesterday on the road so like that's a pretty good test and I think I averaged like yeah low 180s but sometimes sometimes when you're like you know caffeine adrenaline you're feeling really good I can definitely like for up to an hour can probably on a good day like a whole like you know mid to even upper 180s.
SPEAKER_00:Oh shit dude that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so I think like the like if you look at like the I don't I don't always wear the Harry Muner I've been wearing it a lot more lately. When I when I was younger I used to be able like yeah like you know my I did like a threshold lactate test and they're like okay your your threshold's 195 beats a minute and now it's like it's definitely more in like the you know the 180s now and like if I'm a little fatigued even like 180 can feel really hard. So it changes from day to day but interesting do you do have you like do you test anymore at all like lactate lactate yeah lactate testing or no I don't know if I have a lactate tester I don't use it a whole lot like the it's cost like three dollars a strip but uh yeah I would I would like to maybe sometime before the end of the year like to do like a whole lactate profile again but I don't know we'll get around to it. Yeah it's so cool I I bring it out every once in a while just like yeah to when I'm getting heart rate data and especially like running on the track or something to like just check. Is it one of those things for you like do you like you don't really need a coach do you like do you do you think you'll ever get one or is it if it's if you if it's not broke don't fix it kind of thing like how do you view that I think I just I like the challenge of like being being being my own coach and writing I think the like looking towards western states I am a little bit interested in not necessarily like a coach to write like training but someone to like consult on and help a little bit with like like dialing the nutrition and dialing the heat mitigation and like a few of those things. So they wouldn't necessarily like be writing my like workouts day to day but they'd be like you should go like you should do this long run, but you should do XYZ to like really dial in your nutrition or your your heat mitigation like those kind of extra things but yeah I don't think to me it wouldn't be fun anymore for me if I like had was you know had a call with a coach once a week or was getting an email being like here here are your workouts. I I I really like having the like the flexibility to be like okay well like I I'm just feeling terrible today so I'm gonna actually like you know rewrite the plan and so I'm always kind of thinking like these are like this is my week of training like these are like what the two kind of key workouts I want to get done and then this is like what I would like to see for like total volume. But then like you'd be like okay like well I'm feeling motivated I want to go do like my my interval is flat or running today or like I just need a day in the mountains I'm gonna go you know go do a boot boot spur VK or whatever it is like you're getting the same like you're trying to get the the right physiological stimulus but mix it up and keep it fun. And I think with a with a coach telling me exactly what to do it wouldn't be as much fun. So maybe like in terms of like the physiology or like ideal training I could be you know one or two percent better by like really being scientific about like what the workouts are and everything but I think I would lose more because it would just suck the fun out of it for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah it's so interesting. I don't know I I like taking folks perspectives on it. I just find it yeah it's interesting stuff. All right one last question I have for you now that you are a professional how do you view it do you view this thing as like a career do you view it as like I'm just gonna do this for a few years like how how long do you want to do this for? And like how do you view it?
SPEAKER_01:Oh it's uh I I I don't think I would view it as a career right now. Like I'd I I'm fortunate enough to be like I you know not making that much money like if it keeps going well I could maybe like you know start earning enough to like which is cool because when I started trail running it was definitely just a hobby and you know like maybe like Killian or a couple people were like you know actually making money at it but now it's like actually also impossible to you know at least like make a living if you're having good results as a trail runner. So that's really awesome but I'm definitely not like you know you it's it's not necessarily like a career thing as you never know when you're gonna have a have a bad injury or like the I could decide in a year okay like I've done everything I want to do or it's just it's not fun. I don't have the motivation anymore. So I'd like yeah I'm I'm just really like glad to have the uh like the good fortune and to be yeah lucky enough to that I don't need to like have a job on the side so I can be all in on running for a little bit and hopefully I'm still motivated and running professionally in five or you know you see you see some of these guys are so inspiring they're like having world class results in their like mid and late 40s but yeah I I don't know some days I wake up and I already feel a little old so who knows if I'll if I'll still be getting good results in five six years. But uh yeah it's it's really fun to right now to kind of treat it as a as a career and it's been been going well. So hopefully I can keep on having good results and yeah make make a little bit more of a career out of it.
SPEAKER_00:It's so interesting to me because like dude you've done so much in the sport like you're easily a first ball at Hall of Famer if we had a hall of fame like you would be in it easily all right one more question I do have to say I I do have to ask you this because it's very interesting to me and then we'll end it on this but like is it cool like how what does it mean to you to have such respect from your peers like not like Eli like I've heard Micelino give you so much respect like so many like everybody like a lot of people view you as like the standard in American trail running right now. Like what does that mean to you like on an ending note? Oh I mean I've just yeah I've you know I I like to think that I'm uh you know pretty down to earth and try to try to try to keep it modest so uh like I I think like the trail running community especially like here in the US is just like incredible I haven't I haven't met any other like professional trailrunners who just are not good people so I yeah I just try to do my best to uh you know represent the US trail running community and it's yeah it's it's it's nice to think here that you know the other trail runners think highly of me so uh yeah just yeah it feels great but so cool well David thank you so much for coming on man I appreciate these talks we got to do these once or twice a year as always I I like I really appreciate it we'll have to do uh either uh one before or one after Western States next year be fun to watch yeah well let me know and I'll I'll make time to hop on it's it's been fun to chat awesome man well thank you so much appreciate it awesome stuff want to thank David so much for coming on the podcast again it's always fun having our our annual conversations and no doubt next year after Western states we'll have some good stuff to chat about and hopefully some good short trail stuff as well we don't want to lose the guy to this ultra stuff I don't know about that but um guys the best way you can support David is to give him a follow on Instagram you can find him at david.a dot sinclair dot ninety two on Instagram it's also going to be linked in the show notes so you can give him a follow there. Yeah definitely uh a fun follow and it's always fun to hear David's story and just kind of what he's been up to. Really appreciate him being candid and talking about some of the heart rate stuff. Like uh just interesting uh just what kind of just he's such a beast of an athlete so cool stuff there. So all good stuff for all of us to learn. Yeah the best way you could support the podcast as well give us a five star rating and review on Apple, Spotify and YouTube if you uh enjoy the podcast. And very last but not least you can also support us by supporting our brand partner Ultimate Direction. If you go ahead on check out ultimatedirection.com if you pop on over to uh their website you can find uh some of the new vests the race vest six liter and the ultra vest 12 liter that just dropped um also have a really nice new pole quiver that's out there along with some schlarp shorts there's all kinds of good stuff on that website uh handhelds um and very last but not least a whole myriad of belts the comfort belt as well as the race belt um both awesome stuff and uh yeah if you use code steep stuff pod it's gonna get you 25% off your cart at checkout again that's one word steep stuff pod for 25% off guys thanks so much
