The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#130 - Francesco Sunseri
A short trail host, a 214-mile finish, and a brutally honest look at what it really takes to cross a 200-mile line with your head still on straight. Franc returns fresh off the Mammoth 200 to unpack the race that started as a joke and turned into a test of logistics, mindset, and pain tolerance. We talk about the fast first day that had him mixing it with the leaders, the sandy fire roads that shredded his feet, and the moment—somewhere around mile 114—when he had to find a real why or walk off the course.
We go deep on the parts most recaps skip. How do you structure sleep so you stop dozing while walking? What does smart foot care actually look like under constant sand—washing, lube, taping, sock swaps—and how fast does neglect ruin a great engine? Why does some pain feel worse when you walk than when you jog? Franc shares what worked in his fueling (steady gels and real food, zero stomach drama), what didn’t (delayed foot fixes), and why crew can make or break a second night. We also zoom out to the front of the race: how Jimmy Elam proved 200s can be fast and how Rachel Enterkin’s relentless push hints at a new era for the distance.
Training takeaways are clear and actionable: build volume patiently, treat heavy strength work as a durability cornerstone, and test your sleep and foot systems long before race week. We touch tough edges too—microdosing debates, WADA rules, appetite suppression risks, and the boundaries of sobriety—without glamorizing shortcuts. If you’re eyeing Sedona 125, Cocodona, or any race where days blur and aid stations feel like islands, this conversation gives you a roadmap and a reality check.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to bring you an episode, this time with a return guest, Mr. Francesco Senseri, one of my best friends. Super excited to have Francesco back on the pod after a few months and just removed from his finish at the Mammoth 200. That's right, you heard it. I know this is a steep, uh, this is a steep ask of you guys, considering we are a short trail podcast, but I am doing a special presentation today just because Francesco kind of batters back and forth between the short trail and the long trail stuff. Um this one in particular, I wanted to do a fun little debrief of him post-Mammoth 200. So that's right, we are doing a Mammoth 200 conversation fresh off of Francesco's finished, where he suffered immensely over the course of two and a half, three days to get this thing finished. Um and yeah, we talked all about, we talked about his whys, we talked about how things changed in this vision quest of a situation that he went through. Um, we talked, we got into everything logistics, crew, food, feet, you name it. This was a fun one. Like I said, this is a special presentation of the podcast. Don't expect me to ever do a 200-mile episode over again because I'm not really into that. But that said, I do find it very interesting when others choose to suffer over these long distances, and I think it's uh worth a conversation. And we did draw some parallels too. We talked a lot about the pain. The pain is a very different thing between short trail and uh these 200 miles versus this, you know, horrible, terrible pain over an hour or two hours of running yourself up and down a mountain versus this dull, horrible pain over three, sometimes four days, which is kind of crazy. So, guys, I hope you enjoy this one. I really want to thank Frank for coming on the pod to help continue to tell his story. Um, it's definitely one of inspiration, and I think it's one the audience is gonna get a ton of fun out of. So, oh, also one last thing before I do sign off. Um, for those of you listening to this uh that might have small ears around or might be sensitive to foul language, there are a few F bombs thrown around. This one is explicit content. Um, I didn't edit out any of the language, there's quite a few out there. So um, yeah, uh just if you have small ears, uh cover them up or uh listen to this in uh in a different setting. So without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this. Mr. Francesco Sancerios, ladies and gentlemen, we are live. Francesco Censeri, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, buddy?
SPEAKER_00:That's going well, James. How are you, man?
SPEAKER_01:It's good, man. It's good to catch up with you. It's been kind of a wild month for you, so it's it's good to be in the midst of a chat and kind of debriefing uh this massive life, this journey that you just went through in the Mammoth 200. I figured uh, you know, first off to the audience, I know this is a short trail podcast, but this is a special presentation of the short trail podcast to uh talk to you about your journey, um, especially given the fact that you've been on the pod before, pick kind of pick up where we left off and and get this rolling uh and learn about more about you and what you just did. Uh how you feeling, man?
SPEAKER_00:Dude, feeling pretty good, actually. I think what we're a little over two weeks removed from the uh from the race and the legs are kind of coming back. I ran yesterday, day before, and I thought I was like, oh, you know, two weeks is enough, but woke up the next morning and legs are just extremely fatigued. It's like, all right, well, a little bit more time. I'm gonna get on the bike and do some spinning because not ready yet.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, you look good though, dude. How was uh I I think we could talk about this as much as you want, but like how was this past weekend? You got to pay or not pace, I'm sorry, you got to uh hang out with and crew uh your brother at uh Kodiak. How was that experience?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, dude, we had a blast, man. Um, it was kind of funny. Going into the race, he was you know giving me his strategy, and you know, it's like you know, we knew Chad Hall was gonna be there, Eli was gonna be there, and both those boys were gonna take it out hot. Um, Eli coming in sick to the race was kind of a question mark. And um go to the first cruise station to meet Michelino, and here he is 30 seconds behind Chad, and was like, all right, so we're not following our race plan. This is good. And uh, you know, because his plan was to kind of sit back and you know just kind of kick at the end. But um I think by the halfway point, um, Chad had like gapped him up snow summit by about 13 minutes. Um, and then as the race unfolded, Chad ended up dropping. Eli dropped before that aid station, and then Mike ended up in eighth. And at that point, he was in second or third. But yeah, that race, um, some random dude. Um, no disrespect to him.
SPEAKER_01:Shout out to random dude.
SPEAKER_00:Freaking came out, ran his first hundred K and just paced the race really, really well and ended up winning while these while these freaking, you know, quote unquote professionals come out there and absolutely blow up. Uh, but it it was really fun, man. It's always it's always good to be out there with my brother, um, help him out. Uh had him, uh the dogs and my girlfriend helping. And it was uh it was it was a good time, man. Really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_01:What did you think about the race in general? Like, was it put on super well? Because I know it's been a few years now, and I like that they've been putting this race on. And on top of that, I know it's this year was the first year it was, I guess, a North American major. Was it any different from like an I know you've kind of been to Canyons before, you've seen what that's all about? Like, what was the uh I don't know, what was the kind of aftermath? What did you think of the race itself?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna be a dick probably here and say I can be like the finish lines, they're cool, they do a good job with that, and like you know, like kind of like little vendor village thing they put on. Um the eight stations always just kind of seem a little bit lacking, uh, but it it was fine. I mean, everybody was seeming to have a good time. Um, but as far as like how it compares to when Kodiak was previously uh you know owned by um another entity, um I don't know. It's a UTMB race, but I mean I think they had like 2200 people out there.
SPEAKER_01:So wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00:That was a lot of people do Big Bear was an absolute zoo. So uh other than that, it was it was fun, it was enjoyable.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if you picked up on this, but I know I did. Uh is it just me or was there a lot more Euros, I feel like at this race? At least like elite Euro men and women uh at this race more than I'd seen in previous years. I don't know. At least maybe I just never paid attention, but like even more than like speedgoat and like other races, you would expect more of a European vibe to be at. Um, I feel like I guess because this was the North American major that they they showed up. Like like the French guy got second at what the 100k, and then there was, I think there was just like a good assortment of like Spanish and French athletes as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, when we were at the finish line, I mean they were calling out a bunch of different countries, like so-and-so representing you know Great Britain, so and so representing France. You know, I it was it was actually uh yeah, it seemed like there's uh quite a lot of international athletes out there. And like you said, yeah, French guy, French guy got second, which I gave Mikkelino shit for. It's like, dude, you can't yeah, French guy you can lose to is Jim Walmsley.
SPEAKER_01:So this is true, yeah, yeah. At least, yeah. I I don't know. We gotta I gotta I gotta text Mike. I dude, I almost sent them the message about the the Chad Kroger slash Nicolas Cage, like with the long hair. Like he does bear a striking resemblance to Nicolas Cage from Conair, like with the long hair. It's kind of crazy.
SPEAKER_00:It's so funny. I well, because go look at his uh his UTIB profile. Right, right. Uh say you know, see what place he came into, you know, a certain aid station. And I was like, oh man, he needs to update this freaking picture, man. He does, he does, dude.
SPEAKER_01:I almost texted him like, dude, like I gotta stop I I because obviously, you know, I'm throughout the day Saturday, I'm like refreshing you know the screen to keep checking like where he's at and what he's doing, and you know, Nicolas Cage is staring back at me. So this is yeah, I think he would take that as a compliment.
SPEAKER_00:So Nicholas, this Nicholas Cage and uh Connair versus Nicolas, uh Nicolas Cage and what is it, the whale. Um probably a better It's probably a better fit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. All right, dude, let's let's talk about you, man. Uh, I'm I'm I've been really excited to have this conversation for a while since you finished. Like, I think this was a beautiful opportunity to kind of recap your race and talk about your experience because I don't know, it's your first time running 200 miles. Um obviously it was like a serious journey for you. You finished in you know ninth place in 66 hours, 41 minutes, 17 seconds. And this race, by the way, like they kind of coined it as like a 200 mile race, but I didn't realize it was 214 miles. I thought that was just like people taking like wrong turns and shit, but it ended up 214 miles with 31,000 feet of elevation game. What's your initial reaction after finishing? Like, is this something you'd ever do again?
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's funny. I finished that race and I told myself, you know, yeah, there's absolutely no way I'm running 200 miles again. Never mind mammoth. I mean, I felt like mammoth, you know, in the aftermath, it's like, man, there's way too many fire roads. Like it just in, and I think I was just I was so beat up from the race that you know, I needed some time to process it a little bit. And I believe that, yeah, probably do it again. I think right now, because I have Sedona 125 coming up in May. And theoretically, if I win that, it gets a free entry to Cocodona. So I figure, all right, well, if I get an entry to Cocodona, I'm gonna have to go run it. Um and I think more so because after the race, it was knowing that if I had taken care of my feet a little bit better, my legs had more or less the 200 miles in them to run them a little bit faster. So naturally, the you know, it's like, all right, well, if you did 66 hours and you're you know all fucked up, let's go and see if we could do it a little quicker. So I think that you know, just the competitive side of me definitely wants to go back out there and do it again just to show that I can you know get in that 50-hour range, you know, you know, 48, 50 hour range, um, I think is entirely possible. Um, with how the legs were feeling, you know, but but you know, the feet were fucking macerated and bruised. So um yeah, probably do it again. I you know, yeah, I don't know if I'll do mammoth. I had a I've had a few people um that I ran with that are like, hey, are we doing it again next year? And uh maybe. I mean, I think that Tim and Hillary put on a really, really I mean, really great race. Um, there's some issues with the course marking, but I think that's kind of to be expected. Um, you know, in a 200-mile course, um, but some of the intersections were poorly marked. I remember, I don't know, it was probably 25, 30 mile mark. I'm running down the hill and coming to a left turn, and I see Rachel Enterkin coming down the hill from another trail, and she's like, Don't come down here, don't come here, don't come up here. And I'm like, Oh shit, like how far do you run? She's like, a fucking mile. So yeah, some of us got a little bit more than 214 miles. I don't know if it was a GPS thing, but I think my watch ended up showing like 220 by the end of it from like random aid station wandering and then just like wandering through bushes trying to find where the trail was supposed to be. But um, yeah, to answer the question, short short answer is yeah. I mean, I think I'll probably do it again, but it really kind of depends as to when on uh what happens in Sedona. So interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Now, if you were to do very well at the Sedona race, I mean you've got a great track record there winning Mingus uh in 2024. Yeah, is it 2024 or was it 2025? It was 2025. Wow, dude, time goes by quick, man. Um after winning Mingus, you've got a good track record there. Would it be it would obviously be Kokadona for the following year? So 2027. Correct. Interesting. Okay, all right. All right, so I gotta get to the burning question. Uh this one might take up a lot of time, but this is this is the one I feel like we gotta really chat about. Is you signed up for this race as Teddy Tonelli, your uh your podcast host slash like alter ego slash like the man. Um we had we're doing this podcast as Frank Sinceri. Why let's let's talk about that dichotomy of like why you signed up for the race as Teddy Tonelli, what you wanted to, and talk about like kind of the background as well with Max and why we're doing the podcast today as Frank Sinceri.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's funny. So we we we entered the race as Teddy, um, and it all started as a as a total joke. Um, you know, started in one podcast episode just kind of clowning Max a little bit about the king of Moab. And the the guest that I had on was like is like, oh well, you know, mammoth is in your backyard, you know, you should you should basically go to Mammoth and you know just uh make sure that Max can't claim king of mammoth, too. And for some reason in my stupid ass brain, I was like, this is a great idea, um, and just kind of ran with it. And you know, had multiple episodes, you know, just shit shitting on Max and you know, and all honestly, and it was all in good fun. Uh Max is uh Max is a really good dude. Um, gotten to know him over the past few months leading up to the race. And the whole idea was to really go into the race and run it as Teddy Tonelli. And as I got closer, and really it was kind of like a race day decision, was I just realized like the monumental nature of this race, and realized, like, look, I need to put all my energy into just simply finishing this thing because it's 200 freaking miles. And I think that you know, people will say, like, you know, you gotta go and disrespect the distance, and kind of like how Jimmy Elam did and absolutely crushed it. Uh, but I think that was a totally different disrespect for the for the race, the distance in general. Um, to be able to think that I could go out there and both put on a decent performance and then also do that in character. Um, and funny enough, um, I had talked to a few people who said, you know, like, oh, you know, here comes Teddy. And when they heard my voice, they were like, wait a second, like, what's going on here? Like, that's not that's not Teddy's voice. And um were slightly disappointed by that. And they had given me the uh the advice. They said, well, you know, next time just do it. You know, when you go into an aid station, you can kind of turn it on a little bit. And I think I probably could have, um, mostly because when, you know, when I get into an aid station, I do like to be pleasant and you know, kind to all the volunteers and um, you know, joke around and everything like that. So I think it was totally doable. But, you know, I think really once I got to the start line, the competitive side of me turned on, you know, I mean, just like it kind of probably does for a lot of us. And, you know, it it it was fucking go time, man. It was like, all right, let's do this. You know, I there's there's a bunch of damn good runners out here, and you know, I want to I wanna try and go out and run with them. So uh I just ran it as as as myself instead of um as the cot you know the podcast persona. So you know, I I think that the it it turned into kind of an interesting thing because I would say probably at about mile, I don't know, between mile 100 and mile 114, you know, I started second guessing why I was doing this, you know, and I had realized that I didn't have like a why for this race. I I went into it as a joke, and now the fucking joke is on me. You know, I'm sitting here, my feet are absolutely destroyed, you know, mentally I'm checked out, and you know, I I just wanted to be done. I was like, you know what, fuck this. I don't want to be here anymore. This isn't this isn't fun. Like I didn't have a reason to be out there. You know, I wasn't doing what I originally planned, things weren't going well. So I think in that moment, you know, I was when I was running with my pacer, and you know, he had brought up, um, he had brought up, he's like, you know, well, why don't you just kind of reframe that? Why don't you find find your why now? You know, you're here. And what that kind of turned into was having those guys with me, quite honestly, was having the crew with me, having them take up their time, their, you know, their entire damn weekend, shifting schedules. I mean, my buddy Jonah, he's a he's a barber, and he changed his Friday schedule, Saturday schedule, Sunday schedule. And he works primarily on the weekends, so he had to shift a ton of appointments around just to be out there last minute, you know, because he knew that I just had it was just me and Adam out there. And, you know, he told me he was like, he's like, I can't, I can't let him do this alone. So he came out there and you know, just knowing that those guys showed up, they were there, they took their time. You know, I I couldn't bitch out at mile 114 and just you know, call it quits then, you know, they they came out and once we did that, we started having a lot of fun and started running better. And you know, that's kind of how it morphed. And I'm glad it did. You know, I we had we had an absolutely amazing time that second half of the race. I mean, the first 100 miles, we ran it in just under 24 hours. We were, you know, more or less right on pace, and um, I'd say maybe an hour, maybe an hour behind. Um, but you know, it's like, okay, you know, hey, we still got time to do this, and you know, so the the second half of it, although was you know excruciatingly more painful than the first half, uh, was a lot more fun.
SPEAKER_01:How did you reconcile it in your brain? Like, did you ever have like a point where you're I don't know, because like you gotta remember, like my brain is weird. I I think in terms of running really hard up a mountain and then running really hard down, and it's like it's over in an hour, right? It's just like a lot of pain and feeling terrible, but it's it's done pretty quickly. For you, it's a it's a excruciatingly longer time out there and a longer set of pain, just a different type of pain. At what point in time, like did you ever it cross your mind like, holy shit, I have a hundred more miles or 114 miles left to go after you already did a hundred miles? Like, did that did that mess with you mentally at all?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, 100%. Like I was I I was sitting there at there was I think it was the Taylor Canyon aid station and was just kind of sitting there, and that was gonna be my first nap. So took about an hour nap. And thank God I did, because you know, once once I took that hour nap, I woke up and I did I did feel better. Um, but still it was like, man, I I remember getting up to the top of Crater Mountain, which I think is like mile 130, 128, something like that, and looking over towards June Mountain and just thinking, fuck, I have to get to the other side of that, and then up Mammoth again, and then back down. Like, and it just seemed so daunting. I mean, I knew at that point that you know we were gonna we were gonna finish, but still, like just the way that the just the way that my feet were feeling, thinking that I had to go that many more miles, and you know, looking at my watch and still showing over a hundred miles to go was just like why are we doing this? Like this is this is so stupid, dude. Like, why are you out here?
SPEAKER_01:Um let's uh I want to backtrack a little bit because I do want to get the play by play more so because the first day you looked, I mean, not that you didn't you looked amazing the whole time, buddy, but like the first day you were you were on the podium, you were running with all the podium guys, like you were all over the live stream. I would dude there was there was cheers going on. It was really fun to follow. And it seems like once you hit that hundred mile mark, things just like completely I don't want to say imploded, but things started going south. Was it a hundred percent like what like what did you do to your feet that like make them start to hurt so bad?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so the the feet go so what it all kind of started happening, you know, right after a little bit before and after Convict Lake. Um, I started feeling, I started getting some hot spots in the feet. And instead of taking the time and just dealing with it and just relubing them, taking a minute, um, and you know, just just simply changing my socks, I just figured, you know what, fuck it. I can get to mile 50 and then I'll deal with my feet. By that point, they were already rubbed raw to where like I had to throw a bunch of KT tape down on the bottom of the feet just to try to prevent that skin from you know continuing to uh to rub down through the calluses. Cause basically what happened is like on the on the balls of my feet, those calluses essentially just like rubbed through. There was like two little like marks on each foot, same spot. And uh so I would say probably at like that my mile 35-ish mark, the feet started feeling a little funky. And you know, at that time it wasn't bad, like it didn't hurt, but I felt it. And if I had addressed it then, um, you know, probably would have been a whole different story. Now, again, you don't really know that because it's still 200 miles, you know. I mean, I could have been running faster and then my legs could have took a shit. But um, you know, the first day my legs felt good. I mean, even from Crowley to Green Church, uh, you know, feet were eh, you know, not not awful yet, but they were getting so they were getting worse and worse and worse. And then basically from Green Church to Taylor is when when they just when they just went south. Because even when I got to Green Church, I don't believe I changed my socks. Um, because I changed my socks at mile 50 at Crowley Lake, uh, but I didn't for that last like 40. So changed the socks, but my feet were still dirty. And I didn't put, I didn't address the bottoms of them anymore, um, didn't reloube them again. So it was just really neglecting, neglecting the feet. And running through that first night, uh, it was really sand, super, super sandy terrain and really rocky fire roads. And yeah, dude, they just got they just got beat the hell up through that section. So when I got to the mile 98 uh Taylor Canyon, um, they were they were absolutely fucked at that point. Um, we were trying everything we could, like putting these like, I don't know, these little like support pads underneath them just to try to take pressure off of the the ball of the foot. And um we eventually got it right and taped them upright and you know, you know, got them lubed and everything, and we were being more diligent about socks and and and foot washing. Uh so once that happened, it was it was more tolerable. But yeah, dude, it was um it started, I would say the feet started it started earlier, like quite honestly earlier than I expected. Because, you know, even you know, going back to Mingus, right? That was a fairly wet race. I mean, like the first part of it was all through the mud and everything, and I didn't have a single foot issue um for that whole 80 miles, and I changed my socks once, didn't even wash my feet.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but it's just that that sand that's what I was gonna ask you is if the if because we talked about this like a way ahead of time, there was a lot of apprehension, not just with yourself but other athletes, that a good amount of that course is very sandy. So it's like, how do you keep that from how do you keep that sand out of the shoe? And that's a difficult dance to do.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, dude, yeah, yeah. That was it, and that was you know, I think that if going back to that race or anybody running it, I mean, just don't don't take it lightly because you know it was seemingly it was it it wasn't a problem until it was a freaking problem. And and you're running through, I mean, after the first 30 miles, it's pretty much that's pretty much your get what you're getting. It's just like decomposed granite and sand, and it's it's it's not fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting, dude. I gotta I gotta touch you too about like the mental part. I I want to keep exploring that because I just find it so interesting. Um so and I I don't mean this disrespectfully to 200 milers, but like originally before like this race went on and I see other 200 mile races, like let's just say from the short trail courses, like it's a it's just a different thing. Like, not that I it gets disrespected, it's just like I don't view that in the same way I view like a really hard VK or a mountain classic or never did before. But in that sense, it's it's just a different sport in its entirety. And I think there's gotta be a lot of respect given to the athletes that do it just because like there's so much so much more exploration of the mental side of it as well as the physical side, but it's just different. I think that's the best way I can describe it. Um how how have you changed mentally after this race? Like, has it given you more armor to be able to deal with really difficult things? Has it given you more confidence? Like, has it has it left you with anything after the race that you feel like just a new sense of confidence? Because I just I just did that, like a massive thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, you know, and and to to touch on the difference between like say to lead into that is you know, the difference between short trail and long trail is one thing that I realized that even between a hundred miler and this, the you know, the strategic approach is so much different. The race dynamic is so much different because it's less of a you know a how how is my fitness going into this? How fast can I run this, you know, 50k, you know, so on and so forth. It's you know, you have to account for sleep, you have to account for, you know, again, foot care, you have to account for your nutrition, you know, uh even more so than any of those other races, you know, because if your stomach goes south, things go wrong, and I in and the sleep was a big one. Um, you know, I think going into it, I don't think I would have done two hours how I did. I think I would do have done like little naps going into it. So I think strategically approaching these races, I think what Jimmy showed us was that you can run a 200 miler fairly quickly. I mean, he he approached this as running 200 milers and and he did, you know, obviously the first hundred being faster than the second, but really still going out there and and showing that the sport is changing. It's going from more of that mental side and just being a war of attrition to you know, we're having serious athletes come in there and be able to run these things. So to the mental side of it, I think that's a it is a huge component. People always talk about ultra runners being able to process and suffer and things like that. I don't think it that it's it's a different type of suffering, right? Like you said, with with short trail, the mental part of that is like, okay, I know this is gonna be over in X amount of time. It's a different pain. Um, for the 200 miler, it was it was it's just constant, it's just always there. And especially with the feet, I mean, you're striking the ground every fucking step. I mean, it's awkward, right? So it's like, you know, and then downhills and then the terrain. It's let's put it this way when ultra runners come out and they say, Oh, I love to suffer, like it's kind of funny to me because it's like I I don't know how how much. I don't know how much the suffering's different, I guess, but excuse me. I thought when I ran Cruel Jewel that that was the most painful experience of my life. After this race, I realized that that wasn't fucking shit. Dude, it was horrific. Like, you know, coming down off that summit for the last time, uh my feet hurt so bad that you know, I I I knew I couldn't walk the rest of the way because it was just gonna hurt. It was gonna hurt just as much. You know, um, you know, and I could have took it a little bit easier, but I wanted to go home. I wanted my guys to go home. I just wanted to be done. So we we more or less ran most of the downhill, you know, albeit slowly. You know, I'm you know, I'm talking like, you know, 12, 14. Minute pace downhill. So I mean it's it's a little bit of it's just a trot, but it got to the point where the pain was so bad. Like I was I was on the verge of puking. Like it was it was bad, dude. And um I think I put it in my race report, but there was legit a moment where I was talking to God and I was just saying, please just carry me for a little bit, just take this pain away for a little bit. And you know, I think thankfully that prayer was answered. And, you know, there was a moment where I was going down the hill and I was watching my foot strikes, but the pain wasn't as bad. So I kept trying to like stay in that moment, but you know, it was fleeting, you know, the pain would come back and it was excruciating. And like, you know, at that point, my legs were pretty hammered, my left quad was wrecked. And you know, it was at that point, it was just like, all right, just try not to eat shit, try not to fall down and make this worse. And um I think getting out of that race, you know, it's super cliche at this point, but you know, being able to sit there and say, damn, you know, I I did that. Like, all right, I can handle a whole lot more than than I originally thought, you know, from a from a pain standpoint, because um, yeah, no, uh it easily the most excruciating experience um of my life by by far. Um it's crazy that people choose to do these things.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. It's like uh why? I I don't get it. Like it's funny. I um I don't know, dude. Like I the whole like sleep deprivation thing, the whole like running in the dark thing, I I could never understand it. Like that's for people way harder than I am. Um, like I like to be in my own bed, I like to be like I said, after an hour, it's over. I can go on a joy run, I can enjoy myself, I can relax. Like you're out there for dude, 66 hours. That's a lot of days, man.
SPEAKER_00:It was dude, it was all I mean, the running at night wasn't bad. Like, I I I actually enjoyed the nighttime running quite a bit. Um, it it and really like after the first 24 hours, after I got that little hour nap, um, the sleep wasn't too terrible. Now, going from um like the sawmill aid station to Taylor, I don't I would I I ended up uh catching up with a runner and we ran through most of that night together. And I remember him being up ahead of me and we're playing the alphabet game, which basically like you say A and then you say like Ardvark, and then I repeat that Bever. And then you you try to go through the whole alphabet. And I remember sitting there and like, I don't know, like I'm on G or something, and I wake up and I'm like, holy shit, like how long have I been walking and like sleeping, you know? And and it I fell asleep like two or three times in that section, and I didn't plan on going to bed there. I kind of wanted to wait until like 9 a.m. the next morning. Um, but I I just at that point, like, dude, I'm sleeping on my feet, like I had to go to bed. But after that first night, the sleep deprivation wasn't really a thing. I mean, the days kind of blur together and like the sun goes down, it comes up, you don't know where the fuck you are. And, you know, at that point, I was just kind of sleeping to, you know, reset the legs, reset the mind, you know, and there was never really a point of exhaustion after that, other than like, you know, the the physical exhaustion. But the sleep deprivation, surprisingly, wasn't as big of an issue as as I thought it was gonna be. And running at night was was actually fairly enjoyable.
SPEAKER_01:So can you talk about friends made along the way, like with fellow competitors? Like, obviously, you're there for a really long time, you're not moving at a pace that's gonna be non-conducive for uh for talking. So I feel like there's a lot of good like conversations that could be had in this. Like, talk about some of the friends you made along the way and just the camaraderie built and how that went.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, actually, I I did meet one dude, uh, his name's uh uh Jameson. Um can't be found on any social media, so I had to go find his business on Instagram because he had finished uh like 12 hours or so after me, um, or maybe eight, I'm not sure. Um, and I wasn't staying at the finish line or going to awards, like I was like, fuck this, I'm going to my hotel room. Um, but I had met him uh coming out of Crowley, I had caught up to him, and you know, we were kind of chit-chatting for a minute, and then he was like, He's like, Hey, do you know, do you want to run through the night together? And I was like, Yeah, sure, you know, that'd be good to have company. Um, and ended up being an awesome dude. Uh, you know, he's uh he did like adventure racing and all that. So we were, you know, we were shooting the shit for that entire night, just running together. Um when we got out of green church, he actually left about five minutes before me, and he comes over to my a to our uh to our van and he was like, Hey buddy, you ready to go? And I was like, Oh man, just give me a minute, I'll catch up to you. And it took me the entire freaking climb to catch up to him. I just see his headlamp up ahead, and I was just I was running my ass off to go catch up to him uh and finally caught him, and um then we finished out to to Taylor together. He got out of Taylor again before me. Um, but then his race took a massive dump because he ran um through a section that was super, super exposed through the heat of the day, and I was moving really slow coming out of Taylor, and thankfully so, um, because that section ate up a lot of people. Uh, because by the time we got to Crater Mountain, um, I had picked up Jonah as my pacer, and they were telling me what position I was in and like who was behind me, who was ahead of me. And I was like, oh shit, like I thought we were way worse off after that section. Like, we because it was slow, dude. And he was he was in that aid station, and and he got I guess he wasn't looking good, some heat issues and and whatnot. And um, you know, thankfully, you know, that's when I actually started running again and feeling good going into the second night. And uh from there, we we we picked up a lot of time from the crater mountain to I want to say it was the Grant, Grant Lake Aid Station, um, almost to June. Um, we ran ran well that whole night. And I think a lot of it had to do with the the fact that we avoided that heat. But um, yeah, the last time I saw Jameson was from that green church to the Taylor, uh, Taylor Canyon uh aid station. So we spent a solid 12 hours together and uh we connected after the race. And you know, we're gonna we're planning on going out to um to Flagstaff actually in December to do uh to do a little training camp. I'm gonna go you know tag along for a few runs with him while he uh while he prepares for uh Coca Dona because I believe that's what he's he's doing this year while I do um Sedona 125. So yeah, it it's it's a cool dynamic of those races, you know, because you get that extended time with people and you really I mean, you know, you're talking about some wild shit, man. I mean, you're talking about fucking traumas and you know, I had when I had mentioned um, you know, the girlfriend, I was telling him about her and like how I met her and like how stoked I was, and I'm just sitting there like a giddy little child, you know, talking about talking about my new love interest, and you know, and you know, go to talk about kids and this, you know, and crazy business ventures. I mean, it's it's one of the beautiful things about that race uh format is that you really do get to to meet people and uh stepping back actually to the beginning of the race, um you know, I I went and said, you know, went and exchanged rocks with Rachel. Uh talk about that. I dude, it was so funny. So um we were planning on exchanging rocks after she was on the podcast, and I brought the rock that morning, and I said, you know, I ran up to her, I was like, Hey, I got your rock, and she's like, Oh my god, I got your rock. So her one of her crew members, I think it was her her boyfriend or husband, um, or whoever's the guy right there, like you have a rock. So he fucking pulls out this piece of big ass piece of petrified wood, and I'm like, yo, like, all right, I gotta go find someone to give this to, you know, I like because my crew hadn't shown up yet. I'm like, I have to go find someone to give this to. And she's like, You have to carry it. I'm like, Rachel, I can't fucking carry this. This is like three pounds. Like, I'm like, Well, I'm gonna carry your rock. And I'm like, My rock's this big. I gave her this little piece of amethyst, and and she did. She carried it the whole race, and she reminded me of it when we were coming out of uh coming in and out of sum at one. She's running out and she's like, I got your rock. And I'm just like, Yeah, I get it. I don't have yours. I'm not carrying that fucking boulder, you know. Because I told her, I was like, I'm like, I knew you were gonna bring a massive rock, and she's like, I'm not fucking around. I'm like, dude, this woman is insane. Such a, such a, such a genuine human, uh, Rachel Rachel is. I mean, what you see is what you get with her, which is is really cool, you know. She doesn't have that, you know, I don't know, she's not a douchebag, let's just put it that way.
SPEAKER_01:I have a question for you. How how good is Rachel Andriken?
SPEAKER_00:Dude, dude, every time I saw her, she was running her ass off. I mean, to be able to come into second place just a few hours behind Jimmy, I mean, I think that I I honest to God think that if Rachel didn't take as many wrong turns, because look, as good of a runner as Rachel is, she's kind of a dink. Love you, Rachel. But she was she led us in the wrong direction as we were all together, like three times. We got lost within the first seven miles. And and and she was the she was the ringleader of the whole thing, you know. She we got lost that one time. So we go divert up the trail this way, the trail's going this way, so we see all the other runners go. So we have to go down the go down the mountain, back to the trail, and then we get up to the summit and she starts taking the wrong way again. And every time I saw her, she was getting lost. So I think that if she had been able to stay on course, she would have probably been closer to Jimmy. And, you know, just with her competitive nature, I I think that she really could have pushed him, honest to God, for um for taking first overall. And I think if you were to run it back, you know, all those knowing all those things, I think we would have seen a whole lot closer race, which is wild to think over a 200-mile race that you know they could be even as close as they were. Um, but if she didn't take as many wrong turns, and I and I know Jimmy took a few as well, but man, like Rachel's the real deal. I mean, I I I'm seriously excited to see what she's able to do here in the here in the future as her um as her career progresses.
SPEAKER_01:It's so interesting to me because like she, I mean, obviously so good, you know, just like super talented, insanely talented, and's had a crazy good year. Like I I just wonder, and this is just out of pure curiosity, like, how does the body hold up after running multiple 200 mile races and 100-mile races throughout the year? Like, how do you recover from that? Like, it's so crazy to me because like I don't run crazy mileage, but like I wonder like how people can do this day in and day out, and like I do it at a relatively high level, and I'm just like, what the hell? So it's very interesting to me that uh like how she can recover and do that.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know, dude. I I I don't know. I don't know if it's just just genetically gifted or what, but dude, yeah, it's it's pretty crazy. I think she had ran like uh she had ran like a hundred miler or like a fifty miler a few weeks before that, and it's just like yo.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's nuts, absolutely nuts. And yeah, I I can't wait to see who she signs with and like how their career progresses. Because like I don't know, I think Finn has said it before, and I think many other people in the media space, um, and I don't often get to comment on like the 200 miler stuff or really ultra in general, but like the one time I do, I I gotta say, like, yeah, like that's like possibly the next Courtney to Walter or you know, something bigger than that, which is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00:So oh yeah. I mean, I honestly after this race, I mean, I you know, might get shit for this, but I think that at this point she's she's kind of taking the taking the torch and she's running with it. I mean, if we see I I think a hundred mile may be slightly different. Well, I don't know if we've seen them necessarily head to head in a hundred, but I mean Kokodona last year, uh she beat Courtney. Courtney dropped at Mingus at Mingus Mountain, and um yeah, Courtney Rachel beat her. So we might be seeing a whole lot more Rachel and a whole lot less Courtney when it comes to the podiums. But I mean, and taking nothing away from from Courtney, she's she's amazing and really has paved the way for a lot of these, you know, really amazing women coming out there. Um, you know, because you have the likes of Tara Dower, who was also out at Mammoth. You know, Rachel, Rachel beat her handily too. I think uh Tara dropped at uh sawmill, and you know, just and and really she blew up, you know. Rachel put the pace on them and they couldn't keep up. And she she fucking held it the whole time, man. It was pretty remarkable. So crazy.
SPEAKER_01:I gotta ask you back to uh competition and stuff like that. Because I've run with you before, I know you. You're extremely competitive. I love it, it's amazing. When you guys went out in the front group, were you what were you thinking? Like in the sense where you were like, I like did it felt pretty comfortable for you able to run with these guys? Like, obviously, the pace wasn't too crazy. It was nice and probably, you know, I guess runnable for a 200 mile or but like where where was your head at in the beginning? Like, were you like, oh, I'm gonna break these motherfuckers? Like, what did what did you want to do?
SPEAKER_00:Not necessarily break them, but like I knew at the end of the day, like I knew I could run um close to the close to the front. Um, you know, I think if I was to do it again, I probably would have slowed down the pace a little bit. Uh, because I think by the time I got to mile 30, I believe I was about an hour ahead of my my schedule, but I still felt good. I I felt good physically. My legs, you know, uh, you know, the training went well. Um, you know, for for putting together some half-ass training plan between May and September. Um, I think I think I ran with you. I was like, wow, you were actually extremely fit. Yeah, no, I mean, dude, I felt good. I mean, even going up to like summit one, like that first big climb, I didn't it didn't feel it didn't feel like I was really pushing too hard. But yeah, no, dude, I I I felt I felt fit. I felt, you know, again, if it wasn't for the feet, um, I really think that race would have gone differently, which again is why I feel like, okay, you know, we got to go back and try to do this again. Not necessarily mammoth, but you know, the those those longer race formats. And I think Sedona 125 is actually gonna be a good test for that, you know, because you know, 125 miles, you're still getting to that 100 mile mark, and then still have to run a marathon after that. So um, I think that'll be a good test to kind of see see where we're at with the fitness, see where we're at with, you know, just what we learned from Mammoth because the nutrition was completely solid. I mean, I was crushing never second gels the entire time and never once had an issue with my stomach, eating plenty of solid food, but going into it, yeah. I I don't regret going out as quickly as I did. I just regret not taking care of my feet like I should have, because again, I had that extra time. I could have sat down, changed my socks, but I didn't. You know, one thing was as I said, you know, let the race come to you. And I did kind of mess that up. You know, I did get, you know, I was excited. I was like, fuck, dude, like we're feeling good, like, like really good. You know, all the little nagging injuries that I had were gone, you know, like my legs were feeling good. Um, you know, I had this nerve issue in my left leg that I'd been dealing with the entire training block, and seemingly it went away. And part of me wonders if it was just like a psycho, you know, uh it was just my brain like being nervous about going into the race. And then once we were there, it was like, okay, yeah, no, we can run with these motherfuckers. And um, you know, only time will tell. You know, we go back and you have to do it again. I mean, you can't get ninth place and say that, you know, oh, you could have vied for the podium if your feet were working. I mean, you have to put it together and actually go fucking do it. Um, so you know, I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking that, you know, oh, well, if my feet were good, you know, uh Jimmy Elam had someone to contend with.
SPEAKER_01:But um Well, it's hold on, let me stop you on that. Because the only reason I was gonna get into this was like I after having conversations with you and then looking at times, looking at numbers, looking at splits, and looking at like just the metrics in general, like I find this to be really interesting because like and this is no disrespect to Max because I really like Max as a human, but I don't think there's much separating you. If anything, I think you actually might be a better runner than Max. I just think with these races, it's very interesting because it's a matter of figuring out just the logistical shit, taking care of yourself, getting the right nutrition dialed, and all those things, I think actually make up substantial places between ninth and fourth place or third place.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. No, I no, I would agree. I mean, yeah, no disrespect to Max. I mean, he came in and you know, he got he got third male, ran a good race. Um, but you know, again, I mean, I think as far as fitness goes and just pure running ability, I I think that you know, if I had strategically, again, it's a different race dynamic. If I had if I had listened to my body, changed, you know, dealt with the feet, I think a big component of where my mental you know checkout kind of came at about a mile 100 was just because my you know, my feet were fucked up. I didn't think I could put another 100 miles on them. Like if they're already this bad, um, you know, how bad are they gonna be later? So yeah, I mean, again, like I I I fully expect to to see see Max and all those guys again. Um, you know, Edder Ramirez, who we just recently had on the podcast. Um, great dude, great runner. Um, his family's amazing. Um, I talked to him a little bit after the podcast. It was actually kind of funny because uh his kids and his wife were like, Oh my god, there's Teddy. And then, you know, again, like, which is a really another funny thing was having like a dozen or more people come up to me and tell me, like, dude, I love your show. And I was like, Fuck, really? Okay, cool. Like, you're nice. You know, meeting meeting Max's mom at the start line, meeting Jimmy's dad. Jimmy's dad was actually really funny, uh, because he came up to me and he's like, he's like, Hey, do I gotta come out there with a bat and you know protect my kid? And I was like, Oh no, no, no, because you know, we're making fun of uh how me and Max were gonna um Tanya Harding Jimmy. So Jesus Christ. It was it was really fun. Yeah, like dude, like being at the start line and like having all those people come up and be like, like, oh dude, like love what you do. And then they said meeting Max's mom and like her shit talking me, and then Jimmy's dad shit talking me. I'm like, dude, this is fucking wild. Like, this is so this is it was it was it was it was fun, dude.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I love it. I I want to backtrack to the nights, um, hallucinations. Like, did you get to meet the aliens at all? Like, what were the what were the hallucinations like?
SPEAKER_00:No, dude. Um, so I didn't have any hallucinations other than there was one point we were at uh I think it was Little Walker Lake, um, and actually a lot of weird shit happened out there. Um on the live stream, one of my crew members was extremely exhausted and possibly a little bit high. And they were interviewing him, and he was telling a story of we were running through a section, like coming up to the lake, and we heard like a cat, like a cat, like meow. And I don't know if cats or if bobcats do that, I have no clue, but we heard a meow and we're like, yo, like what the fuck was that? At that point, I didn't give a shit. Like, it was almost like, all right, like if we have to fight a mountain lion at this point, that kind of checks out. Like, why not? Um, but we heard this cat meow, and then we're running by the lake, and we hear like boulders falling into the lake, and like legit, like a giant rock was like splashed into the lake, and then it happened again. And so I was like, Oh shit, is that like a person or like Bigfoot? Like, I don't know, it could have been. I'm assuming it was a person, but dude, it was pitch black and nobody was out there. It was super bizarre, and I wasn't the only one that heard it. My crew member heard it too, so there was no hallucination there. That being said, as we were crossing a log in that same section, I like walk up to it, and the log is like moving like this. And I was like, Hey, dude, is that log moving? And he's like, No, all right, but other than that, dude, like no visuals or anything like that, like no like crazy hallucinations. It was just that one log just like rippling. It was fucking weird. Um, but yeah, other than that, no, no, no crazy hallucination stories, just falling asleep on my feet and yeah, moving logs and meowing cats and boulders falling in lakes, but it was like all in one section. So I don't know, maybe we were both tripping balls, who knows?
SPEAKER_01:Man, I don't know, dude. Like that would have been, I don't know. I feel like if I would have not that I'll ever do a race like this, but if I was to, I think like the the goal would be to somehow meet the aliens, you know, with through through the hallucination, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I was kind of you know, it's funny, dude, because like in my career, um, I've worked I've worked industrial construction pretty much my whole life. So we're you know, no stranger to to 18 hour, 24 hour shifts at time. And so and I've never been great with sleep anyway. So like staying up for 36 hours, 48 hours, like it's it's it's been done before. So I don't know if it's like your brain just kind of gets used to that shit, but like I didn't have any any and I know some people hallucinate their ass off, but like I didn't I I didn't experience that like at all. Um I don't know if it's just like being used to sleep deprivation, which you know, and maybe my brain just is just always functioning on some sort of like mild hallucination. I'm not sure. Um no, no, dude. It was uh I was actually kind of looking forward to it too, like you know, to kind of see what that whole portion of it would be, but like it was never an issue.
SPEAKER_01:I I want to um shift gears a little bit. So this is not um obviously we don't can contain illicit drug use on the Steep Stuff podcast. However, um I know some of your competitors were using mushrooms. Let's talk about that in the sense where do you think there's like performance improvement from that? Is this the place to do that? Like, what are your thoughts on that? 200 mile races.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so okay, so yeah, to clarify, so I was actually talking to Jimmy on the podcast. We had uh talked about the idea of him taking mushrooms during the race. After we debriefed afterwards, he told me he's like, he's like, no, dude, he's like, I decided against it only because of the appetite uh suppression that could happen from taking mushrooms. He was like, I didn't want my my nutrition to fall off because of it. Um, but I did hear that Jimmy was like at aid stations, like just ripping bong loads, which is fucking hilarious. But no, like the the mushrooms weren't weren't used. I mean, uh our crew, so my buddy Jonah, he actually had a uh a pack of like micro, like micro-dose um mushrooms, and he was like, hey, you know, we'll use them a second night if shit goes horribly wrong. That ended up turning into day two, um, when shit went horribly wrong. And there was like, I think it was like 0.5 grams, milligrams, whatever it was. It was like a super low dose. And so we would basically take one every five hours. And um it seemed to help a little bit with the pain. Um again, it which is funny though, because during the with the sleep deprivation and then like taking those consecutively, never had you know any hallucination or visuals. Um, I think possibly there was a I think there's a slight dissociation effect with it to where that's where the pain portion kind of comes in. Um and I think visual acuity is slightly elevated. Um but I definitely think that it's something that could be explored because we were actually looking at um the Wada website and psilocybin isn't a banned substance. I was gonna ask about that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and after after doing the microdosing, um, you know, not doing like a hero dose and just like tripping balls, I think that would be its own clusterfuck. Um but I I think there's something to it, man. And I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, somebody does a little bit of experimenting with it and you know, mixing that with some other like other types of mushrooms, like, you know, cordyceps or you know, what have you, and you know, getting a supplement that could actually really help in these longer races. I don't know if it would help in um in like a shorter, like your type of, you know, like short trail, like straight up hill. Um, I just think the race might be too short for that. Smelling salt, but that's bet that's actually you saw a wada banned. Okay. It's like something like that's banned, but you're able to go and fucking trip your balls off on mushrooms. And I do think that with the correct dosing, that there is a there there probably is a uh a performance enhancing effect from it. I I would say just from our experience, I think that between that and taking Tylenol and ibuprofen probably way too much. Um it definitely definitely helped get through some of the rougher sections as far as the pain goes with the feet. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna make an autism joke, but I'll I'll stay we'll stay away from that. We're pretty happy there, so um yeah. So all right, interesting. I I don't know. I just I've that thanks for being open about it. I was just so curious because like I don't know, I think back to the days, the early days of Ultra, where you have Avery Collins with the the tag word running high for his Instagram, and like he was always big on like talking about like the usage of marijuana. I should say weed. I don't have to say like proper terminology here, but um, like he was just a big, very big proponent of it. And like I don't know, I almost felt like it like semi-altered his career in a sense because he was always the guy to talk about weed like with ultra running, and like he was obviously he's an extremely talented athlete, but like never got the notoriety he probably deserved because he was so big on it. But like now in this 200 mile phase, like you see a lot of I don't know, I almost feel like the mushroom stuff, especially now as it becomes more legal in a lot of states. It's an interesting it bears an interesting conversation to have, you know. Um, especially with what you're talking about, like enhancement of visual acuity, um, you know, maybe dwelling pain. Like I'd like I'd be interested in seeing more research on it and like people actually using these things in like 200 milers to see, like, all right, like is there an effect here? I'm and like I gotta go back and listen to your um I listened to your your pod with Jimmy, but I can't remember. Did you guys talk about it offline or did you talk about it in the pod?
SPEAKER_00:We talked a little bit of it on on the pod. Um, I had got uh a question from my brother to actually ask Jimmy was if he was gonna eat anything magical. And I just started putting two to two together during the pod. I was like, oh, that's what he's talking about here. That's a good audience question though. Uh no, and you know, I the but the thing is too, dude, is like in you know, full disclosure, you know, I've been I've been sober now for shit almost four years, and I've had disagreements with people about this, about the whole mushrooms thing, because like, you know, when I first started running, I would, you know, take edibles like yeah, like like weed edibles and go run before I got sober. And and that actually helped quite a bit um from a from a like from the pain tolerance standpoint and being able to, you know, kind of lock in a little bit, um, a little bit more, I should say. Um, but for me, like I I can't I can't do that. I can't use um any, I can't, I can't smoke weed, I can't eat it, anything like that, because it it has that um that qual that addictive quality for me. Um I I'll just find myself the next week going to a fucking dispensary and going and buying a joint and then you know, smoking again, and then here I am back at square one. Um, but with mushrooms, like, and again, I've had disagreements with with other sober people on this where they're like, oh yeah, no, you know, they're California sober, so they smoke weed, don't drink, do anything else, but they won't take mushrooms. Where I'm sitting here and I'm like, well, you know, for me, it doesn't, I I've never taken mushrooms and the next day been like, I want to do that again. You know, it's it's it's it's once every two years, maybe. And then with the microdosing, again, you're not getting high. And I just look at it a little bit differently, just again, because it doesn't have that psychological or physical addiction property for me. Um, because I'm not a fucking purist when it comes to it, right? Like, I don't look at like sobriety like, oh, I just I can't do anything, you know. No, it it comes down to I'm not gonna take a substance that's gonna ruin my fucking life, and mushrooms aren't there for me. You know what I mean? So, like it they uh, you know, some people are gonna get pissed off about that, but I could give up. I mean, I it's again, dude, like it, I I don't, I'm not a again, I'm not gonna go and find, you know, I'm not gonna go and take mushrooms every day. That's just not that's just not something I'm interested in doing. And that's something I don't think you really should do, quite honestly. I mean, I I really do kind of look at it as a um, you know, to to get a little to get a little woo-woo and hippie here. I mean, I it's it's it's a it's a plant medicine, and if you use it the right way, and you know, you could have it has a lot of benefits, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, uh I was gonna make a Meet the Aliens joke, but we can save that for another time. I gotta ask you, I I gotta get woo-woo here. I do gotta get I gotta ask you this. Uh you know, you and I uh you know are good amigos and we we chatted a lot in the lead up to this race. We talked about expectations, we talked about goals, we talked about all these different things. And then it's always a different experience when in the lead up to it, and then you get to it and you actually do the damn thing. How did that like I guess what I'm trying to ask is like, did it meet your expectations? Or did it exceed them? Or was it not as good as you wanted it to be?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, dude. No, I would say definitely exceeded expectations as far as what I was getting into. Um you know, I I I went into this thing thinking again, yeah, I kind of the same approach that Jimmy took was like, all right, this is just two 100 milers. Like if I could run my first one in between 22 and 24 hours, like we can kind of you know mail it in for the second one and run it in 28. Um you know, and that's just coming off of just running a hundred miler, running an 80 miler. Um you know, I went into it thinking that it was gonna be a different experience. And then, like I said, it's it's that race dynamic, it's the strategic portion of it, um, where I where I I don't believe that I did well with, right? Like I don't think I put enough preparation into that part of it. I didn't talk to enough people who had run, you know, 200 milers and get their their two cents. Um, but you know, I've always been the type of person that's just gonna go out and just do something and try it for myself. And you know, the entire time I think that, you know, if you're not winning a race, if you're not poding, you know, if you're not on the podium, what you take away from that race and then apply later on is really the important part. And again, for me, you know, I I learned a lot during this race. And, you know, I banked all of that during the race. I'm like, okay, you know, for next time, remember this. For next time, remember this, you know, um, you know, basically, you know, running, you know, sub-24 hour um 100, uh knowing that I was pacing myself for 200 miles, you know, I was like, oh shit, okay. So like, you know, maybe we could do a hundred mile or X fast, right? So that's kind of the, you know, you know, morphs into the next goal and then you know, feeds into the the next time you go on and take on something like this. Um, but definitely exceeded my expectations. I think that, you know, again, be even being you know, an inaugural uh race, uh, you know, again, Tim and Hillary, ton of kudos. They did a they did a great job. I mean, frickin' Hillary was waiting at the at the finish line for freaking everybody. I mean, I don't know if that woman slept the entire weekend. She may have slept less than any of us. And um it was just awesome. You know, like I saw saw Tim at the beginning of the race, and you know, he was like, Hey buddy, go get some scalps, and I'm like, fuck yeah, like let's go. And it was just dude, it was it was a really it it was they they put on a great show. Um it was uh it was it was super fun. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Uh as far as things you would change for next time around, like I mean, I like I have to be honest with you, like I ran with you and thought you were pretty fit. I was very impressed with that. Is there anything you would change in training? Is there anything you would apply into the race? Obviously, we we talked about some of the things like the feet um and some of those aspects, but as far as training goes, like what would you change, or if if there's anything you would change?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would I'm not gonna I won't harp on the feet anymore because I think that was just a strategic blunder on my part. I think that with the fitness though, the fitness was definitely there. I mean, unfortunately, I don't think I had as much. I would do we ever have as enough time to prepare for something like this, but I think that I I I had to throw on a ton of volume leading into this. And that brought up a whole bunch of other physical ailments, you know, whether it be like IT issues or, you know, again, the nerve issue that I was dealing with in my in my foot and my left leg, and then developed shin splints in my left leg. And it was just like, fuck, man, just putting in, you know, 60 mile week, 70 mile week, 80 mile week, and then like 120 mile week, 100 mile week, 80 mile week. It was just it was a lot. And I think going into the next one, you know, especially into this, into this offseason, is really being able to incorporate the the strength training more religiously while you're still putting on that on that volume and just increase it ever so slightly um as to avoid injury, you know, because obviously the the strength training is gonna have its benefits when it comes to um the injury prevention, but also from the muscle fatigue standpoint, right? I mean, I still think that I could have there's some improvement there um from you know muscular endurance and you know, you're running 200 miles, you know, your your your legs need to be fucking stout. So um there's a lot of single leg training, but at the same time, you know, me and Nicolino go back and forth all the time. Um, I think from you know, my my past experience with with uh with football and doing a lot of power power lifting, you know, doing deadlifts, clean impress, um, you know, things like that, that's a huge component of the training. I mean, and I I I stand by that. I mean, lifting fucking heavy. Um, you know, because you could do all the single leg stuff, and that's that's fantastic. It it does help a lot. And I think, but that I think that's more on the injury prevention side. But when it really comes to building those muscles up and getting them ready just to be beat down for that long, doing the very heavy lifting is super crucial. I mean, just from a bone density standpoint, um, that's something that I would absolutely integrate a whole lot more going into um going into the next one.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. I would I mean I was amazed by your durability, dude. Like you're a very durable athlete and like you could take some take some punishment, which obviously wasn't it, you know, pretty shown uh throughout this race and other you know races. Um I know Mike, I mean, so I and I I don't know if I've talked about this in the podcast yet, but like Michelino's my coach now, and I gotta say, man, like we've made a lot of like little changes and some big changes in the last like you know couple months we've been working together, and I'm astonished at like some of the things that like I'm like, huh, like that really like like worked. Um can you talk a little bit about like what you've gotten from him? Like, I know he's fired you uh a couple times, but like he's got a lot of gems, dude. Like Michelino, I think you know, the I think he obviously it's overshadowed because he's such a good athlete, but at the same time, like the dude is amazing coach.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, yeah. No, no, Mikelino, I like as for as good of an athlete as as he is, I think he's he's 10 times better of a coach. I the thing is is that Mike's not my coach, but we talk all the time when it comes to you know uh training methodology, and you know, I'll I'll come at him with some dumbass idea that I have. Like, well, what about he's like he's like, yeah, dipshit. Like he's like, that's that was studied 20 years ago. Like, look at this, you know, and like he's it's funny with Mike because he is a he's he's a very, very smart dude, and like he knows physiology better than you know, and anatomy better than a lot of people that that are in the space, you know. We were actually talking about some. I don't know if you know that influencer dipshit, uh Matt Johnson. He's that little little fucking tiny dude in Texas. He's like running. No, let's just put it in he he went and ran Tahoe 200 and ended up D F DNFing at mile 30, and he looked like a baby deer running in the snow. And this motherfucker's coming out and charging five hundred dollars a month for coaching.
SPEAKER_01:What?
SPEAKER_00:Like the dude that knows jack shit about running. It's like, yo, dude, you're just like the rest of us fucking drug addicts who come out and find a sport that we can apply our our addictive personalities to, and you're coming out and like you have zero education when it comes to to running, you know, you don't have a background in it. Whereas Mickelino has been running since he was in freaking in in uh middle school, he went to college and and you know, and has a degree in you know kinesiology, and he's charging what 180 bucks a month or something. I don't, I don't actually know, but it's not not that much. 500 fucking dollars. But no, Mickelino is excellent, coach. And like I said, we're we always go back and forth with you know different training methods, you know, you know, again, back to the weight training. You know, we were talking about that this weekend, you know, because he he had a little bit of a rough go of it, that second half of that 100k. And he was just like, man, he's like, I don't know, you know, he's like, I took enough salt in, you know, where's the cramping coming from? You know, and just kind of basically decided, like, well, it's probably just the muscular fatigue, you know, there's whether that be um not enough volume, because he's run like 1400 miles this year, whereas I've run 1700, he's probably done a little bit more strength training than I have, but all that adds up. So if you're not doing that high volume and and putting that putting that pressure on those legs and and and and you know, getting that stimulus, you need to have that that strength training aspect of it. So even though I'm not coached by Mikelino anymore because I just constantly piss him off with the way that I structure my training or like I'll move my long run and then like you know, I'll decide to you're way worse than me. Yeah, no, I'm horrible, but a lot of it's because he's my brother. When I'm coached by somebody else, um, I I tend to follow it a little closer. But you know, I I I think that I have more leeway with him until I go and check my training schedule for the next week and there's nothing there, and he's just like, dude, fuck you. Like, I'm not doing this anymore. He's like, I'm coaching, I'm just because you're my brother. And he's like, You don't listen to what I say. Like, so I get it. But um, understanding how he puts together a training program has helped me a ton to where I'm not gonna say I don't need a coach, I would probably benefit from one, but if I put together my training plan, I'm able to follow it. And because we have the same sort of thought process when it comes to you know how to structure something leading up to a race, um it uh it it's a it's a huge benefit to to to have him in my corner and and um just to just to bounce things off of him. I mean, he's anybody looking for a coach, highly recommend using Mikelino. He's he's incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, dude. I I've I've gotten uh yeah, I've gotten I've gotten in trouble a few times now with uh deviating a little bit. I like to do my Friday lunch runs a little long. He's like, Oh, you tacked on an extra 25 minutes to your Friday run. I say, huh? He's like, You're gonna are you gonna do your full long run on Saturday? I was like, probably not. So yeah, I've gotta I gotta be better, but it's been it's been a fun journey so far. And dude, like I said, the fitness gains have been crazy just in this small period of time.
SPEAKER_00:Look at look at Jazz, dude. His you know, his girlfriend, um, you know, she goes to worlds this year, and I mean she's had a phenomenal year, and she goes to worlds and gets freaking fourth place.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He's coaching her. Um, you know, and and even like when they first started, um, when they first started training, you know, she was kind of question questioning some of his methodology, and he was just like, just trust the process, trust the process. And then you go to worlds and you get fourth place. I mean, I think that that's reason enough to trust the process.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, it works, it definitely works. So, what's next, man? Hello, uh, obviously we got a long time between Sedona Canyons 125 and and now. Like, what's uh what do you got planned for the winter? Just mileage or any goals?
SPEAKER_00:You know what? Being down in Southern California helps a lot because we don't have a ton of snow, so like the running volume can stay pretty high. Um, we do have occasions where there's you know too much snow, or you know, and in that case, I'll just get on the bike. But uh usually I take the winter to um do a lot more strength training, uh, just sit in the garage and and lift heavy, uh, bulk up a little bit, and then you know, come January start start running again. So I think right now, um, especially with the fatigue on the legs from this, you know, running the other day, I did like five and a half miles, and like the next day it felt like I ran a you know 100k. It's like, all right, like we're gonna we're gonna tone it down a little bit. But right now, the only thing on the schedule is Sedona 125. Um, I'm excited for that one. I'm really looking forward to um going out there and and seeing how fast we can how fast we can run it. Um already assembled the assembled the crew. Um you know leading up to that for running though, just gonna do some you know long adventures in the mountains and you know keep the volume high, but you know, lead into that race and probably really start hammering on the training plan um come February, hit that training block and uh yeah, just try to get a little bit faster, do a little bit more speed training than I did for the 200 mile, that's for sure. Um and yeah, that's uh that's that's kind of the plan. I know my buddy um my buddy Jonah is actually running uh Hurt 100 uh this January. So we're gonna go out to Hawaii and uh go crew him, return the favor for him coming out and uh helping me uh this uh uh this past race, which I'm super excited for because I I was I was signed up for Hurt last year, but I hurt yeah, I was supposed to run Hurt, but um yeah, hurt my Achilles, so I pulled out and um so I'm excited to go back out there. I've only run that loop once, so it's gonna be fun to get get out there and uh and uh just get him the goal that he has is gonna be his first hundred. So I'm fucking pumped, dude. Like I as far as like things that I'm excited for, I'm really excited to go out there and and and crew for him because I think that like this weekend crewing Mickelino. I I don't know if yeah how much crewing you've done, but it is one of the funnest things that dude, you're fucking you're stressed out the whole time. I mean, dude, this this this last uh this last hundred that Mike did, um we uh we start we went so he was in first place at the bear, I think it was the bear aid station. He comes in first. I was like, oh shit, dude, like this this he's running way ahead of way ahead of schedule. And uh the next aid station was was pretty close. It was like a night, it was like 9k away. So we get in the van, we start driving, and we get to the fire road that we uh was seemingly thought was gonna take us to the next aid station, but it there's a gate there. And I was like, oh shit, okay, pivot. Like, how do you know? And like Alex, um, his buddy is following us in the car. He's like, What do we do? I was like, I don't know. I'm just driving towards town. And you know, luckily, uh, my girlfriend Angela was with us, and I was like, Hey, go on the freaking, go find the runner's manual, go see what's up with this aid station. So she looks it up really quick. She's like, Okay, it's at Snow Summit. So we drive to Snow Summit and she's like, It says the aid station's at the summit and it says you can hike up there. And I was like, Fuck. So I go pack his bottles in a bag, throw in, um, throw in his fuel, and I just start running my ass straight up to the uh to the top. And I it's funny because I thought about you and and you were talking that different type of pain when you're running straight up hill and dude. Now I'm panicking because I have his location on my on my iPhone. So I'm seeing him like traverse across the mountain. So I'm thinking he's gonna beat me there. So I'm just like gassing it, dude. And like to just like a freaking handful of pennies in my mouth, just like dying. And you know, my legs are still fucked, and I just sprinting up this hill, like, oh my god, like I'm gonna make it. And then I go to his location and he's running back down to the parking lot. So it's like, oh, they run down and then they run back up. So I ended up beating him up there by like 20 minutes. Thank freaking God. But like that's the whole thing with like the crewing. It's just go, go, go, go. He finally gets up there, load him up, find out what he's gonna need for the next aid station, make sure he's eating, give him a pep talk, smack him on the butt, send him on his way, bomb down the mountain, go to the next aid station. Um, so uh yeah, crewing is crewing is its own type of crazy, and it's it's so much fun to be out there and uh and and do that with those guys. So yeah, really looking forward to hurt and uh and and really just kind of getting to go out to Hawaii for a week.
SPEAKER_01:So Hawaii's great, man. I was out there about a year ago this time last year, and yeah, it's I mean it's easier for you too, because it's a quick flight from LAX. It's like not not that bad because you could fly direct from there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's not it's not bad at all. And I'm I'm trying to convince, I'm trying to convince Angela to come with me, but she doesn't like flying. Um she's like, okay, there's no way I'm flying over the ocean. She's like, send a fucking ferry. And I'm like, no, like just I don't know. Just just just I don't know, take a bong rip, get on the plane, let's go.
SPEAKER_01:You gotta fly. What the hell did we fly? We flew, uh, I think it was jet blue there and it wasn't that bad. But I think we threw it flew southwest back, dude. Do not fly southwest back. Like there was no phone charger and no like screens on the thing. So like I was just like watching shit on my phone until it died, and then I was sitting there for like two hours, bored out of my mind. I didn't bring a book or anything. It was it was horrible.
SPEAKER_00:So I think I'm flying southwest because I have southwest points. So good luck, godspeed.
SPEAKER_01:Uh but yeah, dude. I think we hit it all. Is there anything you think we didn't we didn't get to that you want to address?
SPEAKER_00:No, man, I think we're good. I uh no, it was um it was fun. Let's put it that way. We'll do it again at some point. Um, and next time we will beat you, Max. I promise. Um, that's gonna happen. That's still on the list. Max is still needs to get his ass beat.
SPEAKER_01:Let me ask you Sedona Canyon's is what, May? Something like that? May?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Sedona's in May. It's same, uh, it's it's uh Kocodona weekend, um, or it's like the half cocoa basically. Um and I can't even remember where it starts. I think it starts in Sedona and then ends in Flagstaff. I think it ends in the same location that the um the 250 ends in. Uh, but yeah, yeah, it's in May.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, I have my road trip down there just to uh just to cheer you on and and have some fun out there. It could be yeah, come join, come join the crew, it would be fun. It's not too far of a drive, so sweet. Francesco Senseri, Teddy Tonelli, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, buddy. Guys, thanks so much for tuning in. Much appreciated. I also want to thank Frank so much for coming on the pod for a conversation. This episode was both amazing and powerful, and uh, yeah, it's just a little something different. You know, we're always doing the short trail stuff. Short trail stuff is near and dear to my heart, but every now and then it's a little fun to mix it up and hear some different stories, especially from uh longer aspects of the sport, and uh which it's kind of a whole different sport when you think about it with all that stuff. So yeah, every now and then it's fun to get something different. So, guys, thanks so much to Frank. The best way you can support him is in a bunch of different ways. First and foremost, give him a follow on Instagram. You can find him at FrancescoM.censeri or Frank.censeri as his Instagram handle. Uh, probably the best way you can support him is going on Instagram, giving RunSlut a follow. That's right, run.sl.ut on Instagram. That's the parent account uh for his immensely popular podcast, Chasing Trail, uh, the viral Teddy Tonelli. That's right, Frank is the voice of Mr. Teddy Tonelli. Um and yes, uh you can support him by giving Chasing Trail a follow on Apple, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you consume your podcast. Probably best is on YouTube and Spotify because it's on video. Um and yeah, if you're interested in comedy, satire, and just funnier aspects of the sport, and if you could like to take a joke or are interested in some of the more comedic aspects of it, I think Frank does an absolutely fantastic job. He's immensely talented, and uh, I think this is gonna be one of the most popular podcasts in the space within the next few years because it is just hilarious. So if you're interested in that stuff, which you absolutely should be, give him a follow. I'll link it in the show notes. But yeah, chase check out Chasing Trail. Um, immensely, immensely entertaining, and uh you won't be dissatisfied. So, guys, thanks so much for tuning in. Got a bunch of good stuff coming down the pipeline. Got a good episode with Dan Kurtz, we're gonna be doing today. I'm super excited to catch up with Dan, uh, talk to him about his racing season and just banter about the sport in general. And then we're gonna be uh rolling out a bunch of new stuff. I've got a bunch of new stuff in the pipeline that I'm super excited about. Uh, I think you guys will have some fun with. Lots of video episodes are gonna be dropping, so we're kind of upgrading in that area. Um, and yeah, just some new partnership announcements and things like that that are coming down the pipeline that I'm uh particularly stoked about. So thanks so much to everybody for tuning in.
