The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#131 - Dan Curts
A tailbone crash on a triangle rock. A season of strange falls and late-race cramping. And then a decision to tear it all down and rebuild. We sit with Dan Curts to map the truth behind his 2025 campaign, from a promising start at Canyons to a frustrating run through Iger, ETC, and Plitz Alpin Glacier. The thread is unglamorous and vital: when the posterior chain shuts down, quads overwork, climbing implodes, and even the best descenders can’t press when it matters.
Dan walks us through a hard reset with coach Jack Kenzel—starting with a track-based drift test to lock in real aerobic limits, adding heavy strength to hit a baseline of force, and then pressing the volume button with sustained climbs, daily vert, and technical footwork. We dig into why he believes cramping is a muscular endurance problem more than a bottle problem, how heart rate caps keep ego in check, and why Northeast granite and mud might prep athletes better for Europe than endless sunshine ever will.
We also zoom out. Short trail is growing, but it needs stars, live coverage, and sharper storytelling. Dan shares what Europe gets right—stacked fields, iconic venues, and snackable highlight reels—and how U.S. races can catch up with consistent live streams, honest athlete recaps, and creative embeds that show how fast “runnable” really looks. Gear matters too: lighter, grippier shoes like the Cascadia Elite change what’s sustainable at speed on wet rock and alpine grass, expanding both safety and excitement.
If you care about subultra trail, this is the blueprint: build durability, race smart, tell the story well, and make it easy to watch. Hit play, then tell us—what race do you want live-streamed next? And if you’re new here, follow, share, and drop a quick review so more runners can find the show.
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello, and I'm so excited to welcome Dan Kurtz back to the pod. That's right, Dan Kurtz back on to recap his 2025 season and spitball a bunch about the sport. Super fun to have Dan back on. We got into the nuts and bolts of a season. We talked about a recent coaching change he made, talked a lot about racing and where Dan wants to improve and what improvements he's looking for. Talked a lot about the sport as well, where we think the sport is and where it's going. Sport improvement. Talked about a lot about the media space as well in the sport and building stars and the subultra/slash short trail scene. Kind of comparing that to the ultra side. Yeah, this was just a great episode. I think you guys are gonna get a lot out of this. A lot of talk about racing abroad and in Europe, um, a lot of talk about media and a lot of talk about just what Dan's been up to and you know, kind of where he's going. So without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one, Dan Kurt. Dan Kurtz, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? Good, yeah, yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Stoked to have you back on. It's been a uh busy summer for you, and I always love doing these like catch-up episodes just to uh recap the summer, catch up on what's been going on, and uh, you know, spitball about the sport and the sports direction. I know you're you're always a good thought leader, so it's always fun to have these conversations.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm excited about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. All right. So let's let's get into it, dude. Um how uh I don't know. You you had kind of a funny season in the sense where you spent a lot of time in Europe. Uh you were over there for a minute, you're you just got back semi-recently. Talk to me about that. How was the Europe trip? How were your reflections and thoughts on the season? Kind of let's let's break into it from there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so uh I guess I'll start earlier in the year. So I kicked off the year at Canyons. Um and the race went well. I was kind of banged up this winter. Um, I was living out in my van in Boulder. Um, and I had tweaked my knee, coming kind of off of like a little bit more. Well, basically last year I broke my toe in Thailand in December. Um, and I couldn't even like have Nordic ski boots on without bugging it. So then I was basically just taking time to have that um come back to where I could train on it, and then basically got out to Boulder and had much better access to like dry trails than I did in New Hampshire. Like there's it's much colder in New Hampshire. And so uh got out there and started doing some bigger vert runs than I'd been doing and uh tweaked my knee. So then I spent between I don't gonna be fuzzy on the calendar on that, but until Canyons, I did my first flat run the day I left for the race at Canyons. Wow. Um and I couldn't run flat before that, so I was just basically hiking like the steepest line on green like every day, pretty much. Um so yeah, that was like kind of a wasn't sure what was gonna happen race. And then uh it went well. Um, just tried to run aggressive and see what happened. And uh the race went well. Stayed out in Tahoe for a little bit after and like kind of moseied my way back across the country to Boulder. Um, but I was off trail in Tahoe. So I haven't I haven't really told people this yet, I guess. But I was off trail in Tahoe after Canyons. It was like May 1st. I went back through photos to like corroborate. Um, and I fell real hard. Um on my tailbone, like a rock just broke underneath me, kind of like fell back, caught myself with my hands, but um basically took like a triangle-shaped rock to the tailbone, and um it was like pretty bad, and I stubbornly kind of ignored it. Um, but like I couldn't sit or sleep or pee without it like bugging me quite a lot for six weeks probably. Um so basically I got back from that and was like, oh well, I guess this is gonna bug me a little bit. And it still bugs me on occasion if I'm doing certain exercises. Um, so I don't know if I I don't know what I did entirely. But I yeah, so then I got back to Boulder and I had this like senitus challenge that I was really excited about doing, and I kept just feeling like, what is going on? Like, I'm not right, I'm not right, I can't climb well. It's like just not clicking. Um, but you kind of like put that aside, and uh I don't know. I at least I was like kind of burying my head in the sand on it, and uh ended up getting out for Sunapee. Uh the Sinitas Challenge went kind of fine. It was like a cool La Sportiva challenge, yeah, uh Sportiva plug. And uh they're putting up like a grand for whoever had the fastest time on this segment for the month. Um and I ended up second on it. Mason ran really quick. Uh and I guess I wasn't as frustrated being second on it. I was just really frustrated with like not being right, you know. Like I felt like I really wanted to go out there and like have a what I felt like was like a really good effort, and like I got everything out of myself. And I just kept not being able to have that. My quads would just completely implode. Um, so whatever get out to Sunnepe. That's kind of like the next thing, like US championships, which was my A goal for the year for sure. Um and it was just more of the same. Uh the day before Sunapee, I couldn't run. I was trying to do my shakeout jog, I couldn't run. My hip got really, really messed up from the tailbone thing because um I just wasn't moving right at all. I was like trying to really, my body was like trying to avoid that. So uh I couldn't get in with a Cairo until after the race, and he was pretty impressed with how messed up things were. But I saw him a handful of times um and got things more sorted out, and then basically basically I think I just completely fried my quads um because I couldn't use like posterior chain at all. Um so yeah, at all those races, I just kept being like unable to climb. Um, I look weird running in the videos at Sunope. Like I was it's just it was very frustrating because I other than other well, that's I guess a big piece of fitness, but but yeah. So those races went very frustratingly for me. I ended up, I don't know what place I was at Sunope.
SPEAKER_01:If I didn't write it down, I didn't I wasn't planning on talking about it. I was gonna I was gonna jump over that that topic. Yeah, no, I'm I'm very upset about it. You were right at the mix. I mean, you were right there. It's kind of crazy, dude. Like the fact that like you were pretty compromised and still were able to stay in the mix, and you were what one off, two off. You were I think you were one off right there. No, I think it was Andy and I. That's right. That's right. Andy was right there.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and then I was sixth. Um it just wasn't, I didn't going up the first climb on the first lap, I knew I was in trouble during that race. And I was like, all right, well, I think I'll be the best person in the descents in this race. Um and you know, like maybe use that to cheat my way a little bit, kind of like fake the fitness, kind of. Um, so then I got back up into I was leading through the first lap, yeah, but I knew like I was happy because I was able to run that first ascent controlled, and I I remember looking down as I got my heart rate back down to like 140, and I was like, okay, cool, like that's okay. But the second we started climbing again, I was like complete toast. Um and just had to like walk my way the whole second climb, and yeah. So that race was really frustrating. Um and then stopped doing pretty much still didn't really know what was up at that point, and then it was like Cirque series at Canon and Killington. Yeah. Um, and that was just like local, kind of like easy way to get money.
SPEAKER_01:Um what I because I bumped into you, I saw you at Killington, and it was like right after we talked a little bit, and it was like right after you had seen the doctor, and I think things were looking because you had a great race there. I mean, dude, you dropped like what a sub-14 or sub-15 minute 5k on the descent there. So things were moving relatively well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think it was like 13-16 or so stupid. Oh my god. But again, I think some of these races, it's not some of these races you can kind of fake. Yeah, yeah. Like for me on that course, that suited me very, very well. Um, because it was like a for me like a super runnable downhill, where it's like uh you know, I I just didn't get exposed by that course, if that makes sense. Yeah, um, so I don't think it was necessarily like I think I would be competitive on that course again versus if you know more people came out to it. Yeah, but it's not like it's not poking at your weaknesses for me on that course, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:What about killing or sorry, what about canon?
SPEAKER_02:Because that's a bit canon was so frustrating. Yeah, uh from the gun, I was like worked. I remember going up the first climb and like fourth a couple minutes in, being like, What the hell is happening? Like, I'm running so hard, like I just don't want to be doing this. Uh and yeah, I was probably just in like a bad mindset after uh Sonopee. Um yeah, I mean Remy just I mean, if we're being honest, I think it was pretty much just Remy and I in the race, and Remy like crushed me on that course. Um I had yeah, I this is the other thing, and now it's some some stuff's coming back to me. I just kept having these weird falls at all these things, and that's that was one of the other things that kept frustrating me. I ate shit on Sinatus, I fell hard at Sonopee, I fell hard at Canon, I've got like a big scar down my leg. Um, and I kept having these times when I'm like, I don't fall, like I keep having these like kind of gnarly falls. Um yeah, so that was the other thing that was telling me like you're just off. Um, coordination wasn't quite right. It was just all those little things adding up, and yeah, canon was super frustrating because it was also just really bad conditions, and the descent was like terrifying because I I fell hard like up top, and it was right where I'd fallen at Sunopee. And so I had like a serious gash down my leg. Um and just like babying the descent after that, and uh didn't know how close I was to Remy because it was so fogged in. Um but he I mean he just beat me on a course.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, everybody says that course is heinous. I can't wait to go out there and do it next year.
SPEAKER_02:Like I was it was cool, yeah. The the climb is like you know, like techie northeast style stuff, and then the descent was uh just sopping wet moss grass combo. Um yeah, it was cool vibes for a race. Um, it's always fun when the weather's just like completely different. Like it's one thing when it's like bluebird out, but uh it's cool when the weather's just crap too. Um yeah, so then I raced Killington, and Killington was um they had like a bigger prize purse for that. It was like two grand. Um if they didn't have money at those two races, I wouldn't have raced. Um fair enough. I mean, hey, you gotta, yeah. Yeah, but I I like I also like needed the money from Killington. So I was basically like talking with Remy. I was like, because we were like planning this Europe trip together, and I was like, dude, if I don't win Killington today, like I'm not coming. Like I'm buying the plane ticket with this money. Uh yeah. So that was that setup. And then yeah, and then we went to Europe.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's get into oh actually, you know what, let me let me reflect on a few things. I don't know how deep you want to get into it, but like just for the audience, because I felt really bad just like knowing you, and then after the fact that like Senepede didn't work out for you, that must have been really tough for you to reconcile. Like, can you go into a little bit like how you were able to bounce back from that and kind of maybe put that on a shelf going into Europe?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I'm not sure I totally I don't think I did. Yeah, I mean, we can totally get into that. Um yeah, I was super frustrated. I felt like, and I probably still feel like, but that's probably maybe just like ego as an athlete. But yeah, I think I'm one of the best US like classic style racers, and um I didn't make the team, like that's just what it is. I got beat by guys who were better than than me on the day, and that's just how that works. Um I think it's easy to be frustrated on that because like I wanted to be at Worlds and watching worlds uh yeah, really sucked, uh for sure. Um also like I think worlds was really frustrating for me in Austria. Like I got COVID um traveling out there and didn't know um and felt horrific going into that vertical. Um, you know, had like it seemed a little far after COVID for things to be kind of wrong, but I just you know, I was like had a high fever and like throwing up going into the vertical and then got back and tested. But whatever. So yeah, worlds has been frustrating for me so far. Um yeah, I think uh had things gone differently, and you know, I don't even know what that looks like. Maybe not having that stupid fall in Tahoe, maybe just little things tweaked. I think the year looks a lot different, but that's how it goes. Like you have to kind of roll with it. So yeah, it was really frustrating, and uh that is part of the sport too, where it's like it sometimes gets so frustrating.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, so then went out to Europe and was like not entirely sure what to do because we were kind of waiting to see what happened at Worlds to make like a better plan for the year, and then it was like holy crap, like you know, like the A goal for the race is just a goal for the year isn't there. I was hoping to like, you know, try to podium at Worlds and like that's not a discussion anymore. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's frustrating too, man, because like I feel like off and like off the couch, you could probably like you have the capability to do something like that. Not many people, especially in the states, like can do that. It's just that you had a bad race and didn't get on the team. So it's funny you say this because like I brought this up with Tom. I had a a pod with Tom and Paul recently, and we were talking about just spots, and like I was like, dude, when are we ever gonna like will we ever for the Mountain Classic do something where or in the vertical, like where we also have uh resume spots available as well, like one or two resume spots. And it's because there's always that possibility where you land in this gray area like you, where you're clearly one of the best athletes in the country, but yet you're not on the team. And it's like, well, what are we doing here? Is it just earn your spot, or it's you know, I I didn't really like that. Cause and this is not to disparage the the Mountain Classic team. I thought they were all amazing dudes. I know all of them, they're fantastic athletes. It's just that like I also feel like if we were to truly send our best, it would have included you. And I gotta be honest about that.
SPEAKER_02:I I think, but I think it's like more than yeah, it's more than me on that team, too. Like, I think if you look at it, I think Christian didn't have a great race. I don't think. Um and so, and like, you know, and Andy was the other last person to win that like US title. Um none of us made the team. We also just got beat by guys who made like make the team. So it's I don't know. I can see both sides for sure. Like tough spot. Yeah, yeah. It would it's easy for me to be like, oh, I want to be on that team. Like, you should have done a resume spot for me. I'm like, well, why? Like I got beat. Yeah. I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah, because there's so much nuance on the day with the course, too. Like, I think when you looked at Han Frank, like how that course layout was, um you needed to be fast to like be far up in the results, and Suna P did not like the guy yeah, the guy's team just that's not what Suna P selected for entirely, but it on paper the you know stats were really similar. So I don't know, it's not a perfect science. Like things are gonna things are gonna um it's I think it's still just fig getting it figured out, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure where I stand on that. It's a weird one, right? Like I almost feel like in and this is not to disparage Sonope in any way because I love Tom and I love what he puts on, but yeah, I feel like there were there might have been better courses. But the question is, and I think Tom would come back to defend himself on this, is like, do they I don't think they know ahead of time. I don't think you know much of the course, which kind of I I I hope for 2027. Yeah, 2020, yeah, 2027, we'll know, have a better idea of what that South African Mountain Classic course looks like. So it's easier to do that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you you maybe you can't. I don't know entirely. I mean, I've seen a lot of photos of the trails in Cape Town, but it's possible in the US we can't perfectly simulate that course. Like that's totally possible. Uh but yeah, like you were saying, I think the Sun of P this that for me was really frustrating. I think I could run, I I'd be fairly confident in saying literally like seven days out of the week, I think I could go run faster than I did on that course on that on that day.
SPEAKER_01:Um like whatever. What can you do? What can you do? I have one last question on this. Um, last year you were doing a lot of the van life, especially in Boulder and and kind of playing that game. I know you I I'd read your Sinitas uh write up, and you kind of talked a little bit about like the trade-offs. Like maybe this was the right decision, maybe it wasn't doing the van life. Is that something you'll continue to do in the future, or are you more home base guy? Like, I feel like there's trade-offs for both.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's trade-offs for everything. Yeah. Um there's trade-offs to trying to go to Europe and race for the summer, right? Like, there's it's always hard. It's like how you convince like you have to like sacrifice like friendships back home and like, yeah, all of it is trade-offs. Uh for me, the van stuff has been really cool. Um, and I think it's at least at worst, it's like leaning into like leaning towards a like lifestyle or like way of doing things that um is valuable to me. Um I don't want to like I I love having the freedom. I think this question could go super deep really easily. I I love having the freedom to go do stuff like that, like um be able to travel around, like going out to that canyons race was super fun, but it was also stressful. Like I had I got stuck in a blizzard in Wyoming on the way there. Like they shut down the highway, so I like slept in I'm not gonna remember the town name, and then had like a long run the next day, and like there was nothing I could do. I like fumbled around in like 12-15 inches of snow, like off trail for 90 minutes instead of doing like my long run, because I just like it didn't make any sense. So, like I think the van life stuff teaches you to be like be able to shift things around. And well, honestly, maybe it's this is sounding dumber because like the next day after that, I got I broke down in uh like 10 miles into Utah, like an hour from Salt Lake, and then spent the next day uh fixing the van. So like I had to pull off like everything on the front end of it and uh replace a pulley that required pulling a ton of like your a ton of stuff and they didn't have it, and so I had to use like a different, yeah, whatever. That was like a disaster, but um I had dinner with like a Mormon family that invited me, like watched, saw me like working on my van in the middle of the day in this like tiny town in Wyoming. And uh I don't know. The van stuff I think is great. Um, but it's definitely yeah, there's pros and cons to everything for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. The dinner with the Mormon family sounds pretty cool. That's I always it's always fun to get to meet meet different people. So that sounds fun. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:This guy like stopped in uh yeah, we started talking at like the auto shop and I was I was in the back of the like auto zone or whatever with a pair of calipers measuring all of these uh pulleys they had back there to see what other vehicles pulley I could try to like either shave down and use on mine, uh on my van. And uh whenever we started talking, and he like offered help and then invited me over to their place for dinner and really, really tried to get me to go to church with them. It was like a lot of pushing on that. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was interesting. And then on the way back, I like went back through highway 50. Is that the is that the one through Nevada for a while there? And like so. Yeah, just like camped out in the desert. And it was super cool, but um it's also like lonelier than if you had like a place you were renting with friends or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, that's cool. You get to see all different things and just yeah, different experiences. All right, let's let's let's pivot to Europe. First thing I gotta say on the Europe uh front is this this hilarious and fun bromance between you and Remy LaRue is kind of budded. Uh Remy LaRue is one of my favorite humans in the sport, super good guy. He's been on the podcast a bunch. Uh, talk about this. Obviously, your teammate, competitor at times, like how has this uh this friendship developed?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Remy's great. So we raced a handful of times last year. Um and I don't know, like you usually for me, I don't like people, like especially if I'm racing them, I like don't like them until I race them, or like, or I talk with them, and then I'm like, oh, like all these all these guys are great. Like, yeah. So I had no, I had didn't have any preconceived notions for Remy, but then we like the more we talked to them, it's like, oh, Remy's like Remy's the best. Um, and so after Canadian Champs last year, um he was trying to figure out contract stuff for this year, and I was like, dude, I mean, I think he'd be a great ad to the team. And so like I put him in contact with Jordan, our like athlete manager, and he ends up he ended up getting signed with Brooks this year. Um yeah, yeah, I don't know. We've just been like hanging out more at different team stuff, and like uh yeah, Remy's Remy's the best. So we've been hanging out a bunch and planned. He lives quite close to me. Um he's in Canada, but he lives yeah, very close to me. So um we just plan on doing this Europe trip together because we do similar racing and um it's just so much more fun to do this stuff with people than it is to yeah, fly to Europe solo and all that stuff. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I say this as a prelude to uh, like I said, we'll do a future episode with both of you because I think that could be a lot of fun. Uh it's interesting because you're two very similar athletes in a lot of ways, where you're both two of the best mountain classic athletes in in the world, generally. So it's kind of fun. Hopefully you guys get to train more together. You're both on the same team, and I'm interested to see where this will go. Because uh, especially that you're both in the northeast, it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, I mean, and we've we've had similar talks about the northeast, just because, like, I mean, both of us getting back from Europe, like we've both been like, dude, it is it is good here. Like it is, it is nice, like the training's great. Like, he's been really happy being back in uh Waterloo and Quebec and being like, oh, it's good here. But we're also like uh, you know, it sucks to train solo all the time. Um, so we've been talking about uh doing a stint in Boulder this winter. Um, because the winter there is just a lot easier. So it would be kind of nice um logistically to just be able to run a lot more. Um so that's that's our plan. Kind of like go out to Boulder together this winter and do some training um before uh hopefully a big Europe trip again next summer.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. All right. Uh let's get into Europe from this past year. For uh correct me if I missed any, but you raised Iger, ETC, and Plutz Alpen Glacier. Is that correct? Or was there any more I missed in there?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, yeah. Alpine in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, let's we can start with, I guess I was Plitz Alpin Glacier or Iger first for you?
SPEAKER_02:Iger was Iger was first. It was like a couple days after we got in.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. All right. Yeah, break it down for me. How was this trip? What uh yeah, I mean, obviously, like pretty competitive racing, lots of fun, it seemed like. Where did you stay? Where did you go? Like, give me the whole uh the paper.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna totally botch a lot of things on the schedule there. Um, what happened? We met up in Boston um because we were looking at flights out of Montreal, out of Boston. It looked Boston was like seven or eight hundred dollars round trip um to Europe. So we were like, I mean, that's that's fantastic. Yeah, um, so we ended up flying out of Boston, um same flights, got into Geneva, and then we had a Brooks like team camp in Lesouches, um, just down the valley from Chamonix in the in the Chamonix Valley. Um yeah, so we got into Geneva. The first, like, I think, well, this was like the weirdest thing of the trip for me. We got into Geneva and we're like waiting on our transfer like shuttle to Chamonix, and uh like trying to find it, trying to find it, and finally we find the bus and it's uh Brooks ad. We're like, no way, it's like a Brooks, like the shuttle is like a Brooks sponsored shuttle. That's like super funny. And then the the rear of it is just like a photo from of me from this like photo shoot we had done last November, and I was like, This is the weirdest thing. I had no idea they were using this photo at all, and like yeah, the the sport is weird because there was for me, I was like, that's so cool. Like, my mom would be pumped on this kind of thing, but it's also weird because you're like, I'm not really like you don't really make that much money either, and so it's like this weird dichotomy of things going on. You're like, it's weird to feel like a touch. I don't know, it's obviously not like celebrity status in any shape or form, but like it is weird to see like that's friggin' me. Yeah, you take a picture with a picture, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. This is weird, but can you take a photo of me with this? Because that's so funny. Uh yeah, and then we got into Lesouchen. Um we weren't there for long, and then we took the train out to uh uh Grindelwald. Um, we stayed in Interlock in in Switzerland, um, because it was much less expensive than staying in Grindelwald. Um and then yeah, Remy was doing like the 15k. I think he had like a 10 mile race pretty much, and then yeah, 15 or 16k, whatever it was. And then I was doing, I don't remember how long it was supposed to be. It ended up being like right about 20 miles. Um, and honestly, it was kind of the same story of this year for me. I thought I was super ready for it. We had Like shifted nutrition approach. And it was pretty much a lot of climbing in the first half. And then you had a long, really runnable descent. Um I think it was like a 15% grade for five miles or something like that. Um and I just ran with um the guy leading Stian. Um and was like, okay, I feel like on that descent, like I should be I feel like I could do that descent with anybody. So I that's that's kind of my race tactic. Like I don't want to overcook things because I've had this problem with cramping at all these races, especially like pretty much anything over 90 minutes, it's been like an issue. Um even canyons, even canyons, the like climb back um out of the canyon. I was like cramping up and I was like, what the heck? So like if that race was another mile of climbing before the finish, before dropping down into town, I would have I don't think I would have won. Like I would have lost a couple minute gap to Eddie and he would have beaten me. Um so I don't know. So like obviously there's either a pacing component to that or whatever. It's been kind of like a real frustrating thing for me for the last since I've started doing trails. Um so trying to figure that out still. So at uh yeah, at the Iger race, I ended up losing uh the lead. I had a decent lead at you know, whatever 18, 19 miles, and start cramping so bad. I'm having to like, I just like could not run through it. I'm just like moaning through the last couple miles, like having to hobble down any descent. Um and uh yeah, so got second there in I don't know, it just felt like embarrassing. Like, I don't know, I felt like I was the best runner there and wasn't. Uh so yeah, had tweaks nutrition around that, trying to fix that problem, and just again, kind of same thing. Um so yeah, that was the Iger race. Yeah, I it was really cool, it was a fantastic area. You end up doing like a VK um from Vengen up, and Vengen is the town that sits above Lauterbrunen, which is what Rivendell is based off of.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, no way. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:You're running, I'm like, holy shit, that's like Rivendell, like right there. And so like I took a video of like because I would like wanted to show my family that kind of thing. Um yeah, so like it's a frustrating result for me, but I was also like, it was so cool. Like, we we the trip was so fun, yeah, it was awesome. Um so yeah, frustrating result, but um just I I'm hoping it's just another thing to like learning, figuring out what's what's going on.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I do want to get well, I I we'll talk about ETC and Plitz Alpin Glacier because I do have some stuff I want to talk about on ETC specifically. Um, and then I do want to get to coaching stuff because I feel like there's some good throughways and some threads to talk about in that. Um I'd say if you want to get into Plitz Alpin Glacier, we can get into that. I know honestly, I'm sure I'm sure you you probably weren't stoked on how it ended up. I mean, especially with them cutting this course short and stuff like that. I feel like it was your course, though, in a lot of ways, with some of the more technical descending. Like, what did you think of the course, the changes, and just the shit weather on the day?
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I don't know what I would have done differently. I ended up 14th, I believe. Um I don't know what I've done differently. Yeah, the weather was bad. It was like a 5k to start pretty flat in the valley. Um, really wet, uh, not a ton of climbing. Not, I don't remember how much climbing, but basically you start out of town, do like a gradual climb up a road, but you're at altitude. Um, we were like way up this valley um in Austria. Like the drive-in was really kind of crazy. You're just like vague going vaguely uphill, like forever getting out there. Um and yeah, Christian Allen took it out. Um, I was like, there's no reason I'm gonna lead, but I was um just found myself like behind him. It didn't feel like we were running very hard. Um and then we kind of you go through like a cow grate, cow gate, cow grate on the ground, I guess. Yeah. And then you start on this like kind of gnarly cross-country section, um, because it was wet. There's grassy, wet with rocks and stuff, and you're like hopping around a bit. Christian fell pretty quickly in there. And so I like went over him, and then Taylor and I were leading. Um, I guess I was leading and Taylor's with me. We were just like running together, kind of like talking. Um yeah, and so the first parts of these races always feel really, really easy for me. Like, I think that first lap, you know, is whatever 18, 20 minutes or something. And I'm like, oh, I could have run that way faster if I had to, you know. Um, but I I think this will get into the coaching stuff. But yeah, basically we get to the climb, and uh I don't feel like I'm pressing way too hard, and that just like the legs pop. Um, and then there's like then I'm like pushing as hard as I feel like I can, and the heart rate's like 150, um, which had kept being kind of this um problem. So at these past races, um, it was kind of the same thing at like Sunopee, like the legs are just gone, and I'm like I couldn't be going harder, and yeah, I can't get the heart rate up pretty much. Um so so yeah, that race was just frustrating. We got up top um to like this lake we ran around, and yeah, they had changed the course. We didn't go to the summit like was planned because it was like and it was cold and dumping, and there was snow up high, and uh yeah, and then like I was just popped, and so I didn't descend quick or run flat fast. So it's just like yeah, I yeah, it was just kind of a frustrating result. Um I think I ran fine, like I beat good guys still, but it was not I didn't finish and like yes, like that was a good one. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting, yeah. I don't know. Do you think you'll do more golden trail stuff down the line? Is that is that something yeah, you could like I mean if there's compelling races, I feel like there's you know, like there's opportunities, especially now with them like picking like Platop and Glacier and like other um, you know, different courses, like more diverse courses. Like I'd love to see you in like the Dolomites course and shit like that. I think it would be kind of fun. There's all kinds of stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that stuff looks awesome to me. I think training-wise, I just need to get to a point where I can like uh once I can like race those things, I think it'll be great. Um, but I'm definitely certainly this season, I've had a hard time like being able to. I just don't feel like I've been at a point where I can push for these events. Um yeah, where it's a lot of days I feel like I could go out and do like a hard training run and approach it differently and end up with a quicker time, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um yeah, so maybe that falls into the like training coaching talk stuff, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's one more thing. Let me just I just want to ask you about ETC real quick. Do you think that should be the de facto 20k world championship in any way? Like, because I I was really impressed with the like the turnout this year. Like there it was actually like relatively competitive, it seemed like.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and like El Hussein was supposed to start. He didn't, like, there was a lot of people that were uh that were there. Um, yeah, it was a great race. Um, I don't think it should well, it's actually interesting, yeah. Now that I'm before I say anything, I don't like um I think worlds should be the venue that's treated like that, especially for the short stuff. That being said, the courses and the way they're doing it, I don't think is awesome. I think they've made the last couple um worlds courses for classic and uh yeah, well, more classic for sure. Um I don't know, it feels like a bit of an afterthought to the longer races. Um, but the classic race, I don't see how it's less deep than any of these other races. Like it's so good to podium at that race is as hard to put. There's I don't, you know, there's not a race where it's like much harder to podium at, I don't think. And um so yeah, but but I think they're choosing these like really quick runnable courses, and they they kind of have wanted you seemingly starting in town or running through town at some point, which kind of takes away. Um, it seems like at Worlds the mountain races have been trail races, and the trail races have been mountain races. Um I think they should all just be mountain races. I don't know why we differentiate between trail and mountain anyway, but um that's a whole different topic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I guess it would be cool to me if the uh worlds was the worlds was the world championship for it, but uh I think also ETC is going to be a very, very, very good race um from here on out for sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like Remy had high thing, he had a lot of good things to say about that race specifically, which is and it caught my radar just because I was surprised by the turnout this year. Like there was a pretty decent field, and had Al Hussein been there as well um and others, like it would have been yeah. I mean, hopefully, like I said, it'll grow because like that's the thing. Like OCC is cool, but that's a really long race. And it's like we don't have anything really under that. And for the Mountain Classic athletes, like that's just a perfect kind of meet in the middle kind of spot.
SPEAKER_02:So I think it's a yeah, and they have the terrain to do it super easily, like the logistics anywhere near Shamani to do a steep race from town and finish in town is super easy. Um, so yeah, I I it would be cool to see that continue to grow. Um but yeah, I mean it was a good race this year. And I think Remy obviously feels good about it because he he ran very well there. And um yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's uh all right, let's shift to coaching. I feel like this is a topic we got to get to. Um, you obviously made a a pretty notable coaching change in this past offseason, or just pretty recently, I would imagine. Um, and you've been doing a lot of different stuff. Uh for those that follow you on Strava, a lot of weights, a lot of treadmill stuff. In fact, you broke a treadmill recently that might have been today, yesterday. Uh yesterday. Yesterday. Uh talk about it. What's uh what prompted this change and uh what what makes you confident going forward on it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'd been working with Rick Floyd um since going into Broken Arrow last year, not this past season, but the year before. Um and Rick is the best. Rick is awesome. Um, but I just didn't feel like we were having a total um game plan on like figuring out the cramping thing. And I think he was a bit confused on it, and I I am, and I don't know. I didn't feel like we had a great um, yeah, I guess like plan to figure that out or like know what to do on it kind of thing, because we had like tweaked nutrition in the ways that we figured, you know, that has to do it, and like some of these races I was cramping in are just like too short for it to totally make sense to be cramping in. Um, and so yeah, I've been working with Jack Kenzel for the last six weeks, something like that. Um so yeah, uh I I it is of my opinion um that the cramping stuff for me is a muscular thing, yeah, more than anything. I think some of the way these races have gone point to that. Um I think I think like my ceiling like out for output, or like being I I'm I'm very good if I have to do a short rep, like four four minutes or something like uphill, flat, downhill. That's kind of the thing I'm best at. But that seems to like fade um as that goes along. So I think at a race like that, um Pitts Alpine race, it makes total sense. Because like like talking with just gonna talk about Remy this whole time, but that first lap, um, you know, I came, I could come through leading in that race and feel like not working that hard sub subjectively, right? But for Remy, you know, he was like, dude, I don't know how I would be further up in this race. And then it bottlenecks and you're on this hard climb, and so you're he's kind of like stuck back, but he's like, I don't know what I would do. I couldn't run that much faster. Um and he was back like pretty far back. Um, and then for me, I kind of have the opposite problem, it seems, where it's like, yeah, I can be up there, but then it seems like I just can't hold like a higher output. Um, so I don't know if it's just a lack of muscular endurance. I think partially it's also just um maybe even just like a nervous system thing, like being very excited um and like amped for that kind of stuff. Um, but that comes at a cost. So it seems to me like that is currently the problem. And I think if I want to be as good as I would like to be in performances, that that's gonna be a big shift training-wise. Um I think getting up to doing 20 hours of volume a week and um holding that and doing a lot of just easy volume and um I view it as kind of like retraining like the musk muscles entirely. Um because yeah, I think from a background standpoint, like I loved doing things like the 800 or the thousand or the 1500 prelim of something. And I was I was very good at that. But I think a lot of that does come from like the the nervous system being just like wired, and that's how I am like my personality too. Um, so I think that's all stuff I need to kind of realign because at at these races, if you're going out just because it feels okay, doesn't mean that's an effort you can sustain. Um, and so I think the fact that my ceiling is far enough above that is actually not a good thing in the short term. I think in the long term it speaks to like maybe a potential ability, but it doesn't matter if you can't get there. Um, so yeah, I've been working with Jack because I think he is well, and he's fantastically organized. Like he's got problems for sure. Um, that's been great for me. Um and um so yeah, yeah, it's been it's been good working with him. So so so far we've we can get into what we've been doing or yeah, yeah. Please, please go for it. I want to hear it all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I guess one of the first things we did was kind of like uh did like a drift test kind of thing. And so I went to the track and basically ran. Um I've never done any sort of testing, never done a BO2 max, I've never done any testing. Lactate, all that. Yeah, yeah. I've never done any of it. Um, but I've run and trained enough that I have a good guess as to what my like zone two kind of heart rate is. It's like what I have to keep to on an easy day. Um, so we went to the track and like kind of confirmed what we thought those I was, you know, I I was totally right. I like said I bet it's 148 to 152 plus or minus, you know, one beat pretty much. Um and it was it ended up being 153 in the test we did. And so like went to the track and did like a 63 minute, 63 minutes of like laps around the track, pretty much. And yeah, so that correlates to a pace and a heart rate. And so now in training, like don't go above that heart rate. Um and then we've been lifting um just to try to make sure there's not an obvious like strength deficit kind of thing. Um and lifting's been super fun. I felt like I got much stronger like very quickly. Um, so we were doing kind of like uh yeah, we were doing like as many reps as possible, pretty much progression of things, like as many reps as possible. Like, obviously, you're not gonna hurt yourself, like you're gonna go not go truly till failure. But um what I do, I think the last deadlift I did was 275 14 times.
SPEAKER_01:Damn, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Um and so like afterwards, you're like you're like breathing heavy and stuff. You're like, that's weird. Like felt like uh yeah, but um, so we worked up through lifts. Um yeah, I think the three weeks were I think I did 240, 240 or 245 12 times. The next week I did 260 16 times, and then 275 14 times in like the three weeks. Um, so basically just want to make sure there's like I I could hit like a base level of strength, um, that that wasn't an issue um from the muscular side. Um, so now um I think as of this week, it's more okay. We think that's fine. Um, that all points to good stuff. And so now it's just volume. Uh yeah, press the volume button.
SPEAKER_01:That's interesting. I always find it so interesting, especially because like for someone like you, you only need to find between like what one to three percent, if that, to be at the front of a race. So like for someone like Jack that as a coach to reapproach things and try to figure out, okay, like what can we change here, you know, to an already extremely talented athlete, it's got it's an interesting math problem. So I like to hear like, well, because Jack's a brain and he's got a lot of respect to not just like what he's done with other athletes, but especially Caleb. Like when he got a hold of Caleb, he's really you know helped Caleb a ton in the things that he's been able to accomplish. So it's gonna be cool to see what you guys are able to accomplish on the short trail side.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's it's cool too. I think one uh yeah, I guess from my point of my side, it's like um yeah, I feel like it's just in my hands because at some point it you can do all of the right things on paper, but it you could not be hitting the mark or have it not be productive for reasons that no one sees. Um so for me, I think stuff like making sure I'm like tighter about sleep and nutrition and timing stuff. Um, I think some of like you said talent earlier. I think I think that the talent thing we use typically around running, like to mean like a track talent. Yeah, and that's not I was always better at like shorter things. I wasn't like a 5k, 10k guy, I was like a mile 5k guy. And like yeah, I mean, I was talking with Remy about this the other day, just to bring up Remy again. But like I think when I've run my fast, my 5k PB, I still was like it like going through 3K being like feeling fantastic, and then even just at 5k being like like trying to survive. Um and so, like again, that speaks to this same. This was also the other stuff going on in my head when trying to figure out what the heck is going on, why do I keep cramping? Um yeah, coming through 3K and like 805, 807 or whatever it is in the 5K and being like feeling crate. But that's still like eight minutes is still not beyond where you're like in VO2, but you're in like VO2 max territory.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um and then it just like kind of cratering, like the effort just feels like it spikes really high. Um, and so I think it's just like working way above what is a sustainable effort level. Um, so yeah, for me, again, that all speaks to like it might be talent for a different thing. And I think I'm good on like a technical trail or something like that, and like that is positive. But if I can't put those things together, you're not gonna be any good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, no, you're right, you're right. But I mean, yeah, not to glaze you too hard, but like at the end of the day, too. Like, you uh I I mean, as someone that's tapped into the sport pretty well, knows most of the people, like I do put you up there as like one of the most talented athletes to come into our sport. And dude, you've proven it with two worlds teams, you've done a lot of shit. So I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's just you know, a few tweaks and you should have it figured out. I don't think it's uh, you know, but that's me on the outside, not you know, not really knowing too much.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, well, yeah, thank you. Um, yeah, it's just it is interesting because I think there's a reason, obviously, there's reasons why Jim ascends and is Jim and uh yeah, uh it it wasn't because he was so quick at the 400 or something, you know. Whereas classically, that's like how I think we would define a talent, you know. If you're a 5k guy who can run 47 in the 400, you're like, oh, he's like so talented or something, but Jim can't run 47 in the 400, and obviously the the talent he has is fantastically helpful at uh what he's doing. Also, I think the amount of work he puts in and how dialed he is on everything and how much he's thinking about it all the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you are you obsessive like that? Like Jim's a lunatic, from what I understand. Like I've never met him personally, but from the people I do know that do know him is that he's kind of obsessed in a lot of different ways about it. How do you think about the sport that way? Like, do you go to sleep every night thinking about it and wake up in the morning thinking about it too?
SPEAKER_02:I think what I'm for sure, I yeah, talking with Jim is so fun. Um, he was out in Vermont for like a week last year, and so we ran together a handful of times and like had some like bonfire hangouts, that kind of stuff. Um yeah, he's so animated about the sport, and I think like that's the stuff we need more on. I think there's so many people in the this is a complete uh a side to your question, but I think Jim being so excited, like that just like totally draws me in. Like, and it's the same with Jack, like they're both like so pumped on the sport and like so into all these tiny race details going on somewhere in Europe that no one else is following along with. And it's like that's part of why they're so good, is because this sport does um select for that stuff in some ways, like being hyper-organized on some of that stuff, and really um it takes a lot of the mental side of things. And um, I think there's a lot of people who are in the sport that it kind of irks me sometimes when everyone's like, Oh, it's just running. It's not that like, yeah, it is just running, but it's also like we all think it's the coolest thing. Like, let's just like pretend like it's the coolest thing, who cares? Like, yeah, I think that's awesome. Um, I am not as uh Jim is so like detail oriented on all that stuff, and that's not really my personality entirely. Um, I think when I'm at my best, I'm much more detail oriented. Um, but it's easy for me to just get really excited about doing some like adventure run that's not always like the best thing for training or something like that. Um, but for sure, like yeah, running and running stuff is like the thing I'm most excited about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:On on that topic too, of like adventure run and just the training that you're doing, like is Jack very specific with like, okay, I want you doing flat to rolling stuff, or are you allowed to do vert, especially now that you're kind of messing with strength and trying to get that dialed in? Like, is it no vert, less vert? Like, how how does that work in your plan?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, pretty much every day for me. So, like the thing I think neither Jack or I believe like I need to work on my like flat speed. So, like there were a couple times where I'd do like some flat workout like a year ago, and I would just get a text from Jack being like, Okay, dude, you never do need to do another flat workout again, which obviously is like a joke, but I think it seems clear that I need to just be better on like mountain turning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and so for me, basically every day on the schedule is uh yeah, like ideally, I think the wording is like ideally long sustained climbs. Um so yeah, yeah, I haven't had a single day that's like make sure to keep this flat. I've done that, I'm training in up in Maine right now. I'm at my been visiting family. Um, and I'm training in Acadia every day, and the trails are like it's so hard. It's every step, most every step is on granite. That's just like very jumpy, like you're jumping up and down a lot. Um, and the trails are steep and rough. And so there's been a couple days where I'm like, dude, my tendons are destroyed, I'm gonna run flat today. Um, and flat is rolling, it's not like panky, panky, flat. But uh yeah, the that stuff is planned out, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. Um, would you say, and this is I don't want to take uh take us on a completely different uh topic, but as far as now racing in Europe and then living in the Northeast, I have always argued, especially after being in the Northeast this year or this past uh summer, I think the Northeast is more conducive for European racing, like to train and get better at something like that than the mountain west. I I don't know. People might disagree with that. I don't know if you would agree, but I I definitely think so.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, certainly certainly from a weather standpoint, I think that's true. Um I personally think the trails are really similar. Um it was fun being out in Shamani this year, being like because every year I've been like, oh yeah, everyone's in Shamani again, like whatever, it's not that cool. And you know, just no, it's the coolest. It's just being in France, being able to run on the trails is awesome. Um, but they were a lot more similar, like even the type of trees, like I was like, what the like this is exactly like this one trail in Vermont. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I think it's I do think it's a really good spot for that. I think you had David Sinclair on the other day. Um, he was saying, yeah, I mean, Vermont's one of the better places like in the world, he thinks. And yeah, we don't we don't have a 7,000 foot climb out here, but how many races have that? And like you're just training for it. So like I think logistically it's super easy. I went to the whites this past weekend, and from Acadia, it's like three and a half hours, it's to be at Pinkham Notch, like going up Mount Washington. Like, that's not that far. Like, people in Colorado are doing three and a half hour drives all the time. Like, if you want to go ski and you live in Boulder, you have to do that pretty much, you know. Like, um, so I think there is a lot more good mountain access here than people think. Um, I know this has now been like a through line on this podcast, but um I know I bring it up every time I talk to a northeast guy, so no, no, I mean part of it is the weather, like the Pitts Alpine race was uh, you know, it it the weather is more similar, I think. Yeah, um, and uh I think that's a big piece of racing. If you don't ever race in the mud, uh it it is a totally different thing. Like if there aren't wet rocks all the time, it's totally different. The race, oh my god, in uh Poland last year. What was it happened this year again, too?
SPEAKER_01:Was Tatra?
SPEAKER_02:Tatra, sorry, yeah, yeah. The Tatra race, we were out there, and I was like, this is the same thing. This is like a run in the whites, like the rocks are the same, like it was so similar. And again, it dumped rain that whole time, it dumped rain this whole time um this year at that race. And I just think it's in some ways easier to prepare for that stuff in the east coast, but it's hard to say. Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's like you guys want what we have in the mountain west, and we want what you have in the northeast. Because like you brought up Boulder and go in to spend time in the boulder, and and in winter, Colorado, the front range is a great place to train. Like, we don't really get a ton of snow, and it's not as cold. It's especially, you know, we get what 300 days of sunshine a year, which you guys can't really claim in a lot of ways. So it's uh it's definitely there's trade offs. But I, you know, I don't know. Like you haven't really have you you haven't really run in Colorado Springs yet, I would imagine. So like our trails are so buttery, um, whereas like bull. Boulder, it's much different. It's a little more techie, more straight up. Like the trails are just built differently, which is interesting. So I guess a lot of people are.
SPEAKER_02:Boulder's cool. I mean, the access to steep trails, like right there on green, is really cool. There's a what is it? Like there's like this northeast ridge trail that's like super. I love that trail. It's awesome. Um, but still it's like the sustained, I don't know. I ran two hours 45 today. I ran like four just just just shy of 15 miles with like 3,400 feet. It's like I was not doing anything really, really steep and like didn't do a ton of climbing. Like the stats are just not impressive, like slow going a lot of the time. And um it's just a totally kind of different thing. Um, I I think if you were training in the whites for a couple years, like I think you can pretty much get ready for uh pretty much anywhere, like especially if you're out in the winter, like the conditions are so heinous, you're like doing more Everest prep than uh anything else. That's terrible.
SPEAKER_01:Um all right, let's let's pivot. I want to talk a little bit about the state of the sport with you. I know we always love to riff on this stuff, um, especially after this season. Like, where do you see things, man? You think the sport's in a good place? What do you like? What do you not like? I know this is a very open-ended question, so I can get more uh nitty-gritty if you want, but I'm just keeping it open. If there's anything that sticks out to you that you want to get into, I'm happy to chat about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think the sport's in a good good place. It seems like everything's growing, um, and growth in terms of like how that affects people's contracts and stuff is awesome. Like, that's what we all want. Like, you want to make a life from this sport, and like so do I, and so do like you know, all my friends, pretty much. Um, so I think that's that's all good. Um I think just as it has to be like somewhat directed. I think like that's people's big issue with some of these races. It's like you know, you get into the conversations about the UTMB stuff with people uh being frustrated about how to access races and all those things. And I I guess that's just like growing pains of things. Um it seems like things are in a great spot. I don't know. It seems like things are growing really quickly, and um that shift is really exciting. Like Nike launching ACG and um Brooks with our new shoe, like the Cascadia Elite is like that. Seems like a it's such a big leap from like the shoes that we had when I signed. Um yeah, that that's all super exciting to me. Like the amount of growth in the last couple years has been seemingly nuts. Um it's gonna be really interesting what the next five years is like. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's gonna get nuts. Dude, on the topic of shoes, the I mean, not to mention, like Cascadia Elite is a legit shoe. I haven't actually got to hold one or see one in the wild yet. Um, also, your catamanage was a cool shoe. I was playing with that at the shoe store the other day. I was like, damn, like, yeah, you guys have good shoe tech. I gotta say, like, I gotta hand it to Brooks. You're good at picking teammates as well. Like, your teams teams are really good, cool people. Um, but also your shoes are dope too.
SPEAKER_02:So the team has been super fun this year. We had like a big group at Suna P. And so like Brooks had like got us a house in at Suna P. And it was like just such a good time, you know. I feel like a lot of the things with the sport are a bit contrived, and like maybe you have like the Terex hangout in Shamini, and you're like obviously it's like a little force, but we had like such a good time with everybody in at Suna P. Um and uh yeah, we're cooking up another plan with the four of us um for December. So I'm hoping to keep uh keep you in in the know on that, but anything publicly for sure. Um yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think all that stuff's gonna get spot. Um yeah, the the Cascadia Elite's like so different than something we had in the in the like lineup two years ago. Um yeah, it's sweet. Like it's a big chunky shoe that's you know under 300 grams. Um yeah, it's tacky, good rubber. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I just like the would you I have like I said, I haven't seen one in the wild yet, but would you like is that like our prodigio pro? Like is that what you would you would you argue that's like something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, more than like obviously there's like a different heritage to Los Las Portiva, like La Sportiva comes from a mountain world background, and so it probably um it's just obviously a different shoe, and Brooks comes from a you know road track uh pedigree, and so it's I would assume the Cascadia Elite runs better than the Lost Sport, like the Perdigio Pro. And you know, maybe if you were scrambling or something, the Perdigio Pro is where you go for something like that. Um rubber, gotcha. But yeah, the Cascadia Elite has I think all this information is public. Maybe I'll text it. You know, it has like uh cheese. I don't know. It's got great foam, good foam, yeah. Mega grip elite like rubber. Like I think they've only used that on one other shoe at all. Um yeah, it's got like the yeah, I don't know what I can say.
SPEAKER_01:It's got like I don't want to I don't want to bait you, but um all right, let's shift gears really quick. I do want to get into all right, so you you were uh you were abroad for a bit. Anything that stuck out to you on the Euro scene that like we can apply to America racing wise, like I feel like we, especially in short trail, and I literally bring this up in every episode, especially ones with you. Like, I want to build the fan base, man. Like, I want more people to get excited about like our races. It's why I talk about the Northeast as well. Like, I feel like it's so slept on that there's so many good short trail races in the Northeast that like no one knows about. Um, like Cranmore, Waterville, like there's oh, so many. Um it's a real Kismet Cliff is a super cool race. Yeah, yeah. Tom's trying to get me to go out there next year.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's so gnarly. It's like a 13-mile race that yeah, it's it's super cool.
SPEAKER_01:So, what do we do? How do we build the fan base? Like, how do we how do we get people excited, continue to be excited about the sport and like following along? Like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, it seems like right now that the biggest thing in the sport that people follow are like high profile individuals. Like for me, if Katie Scheid or Jim are you know, like the big, big names are racing, you're like, I will follow that race. Um outside of that, it seems to be the classic big races that are really important. Um so like a Zagama, Sears and all, Marathon de Mont Blanc, though like dolomits, that kind of stuff is really important. Um I don't we just don't have that same thing in the US. So um maybe just the building up of I guess that probably just happens naturally, but just like the building up of like those like stardom around athletes. Um I think that really helps bring legitimacy to like certain events. And so like if you've got Anna Gibson racing some some race um out in Idaho, like that's gonna bring a lot of eyes to that that might not be there otherwise. Um yeah, I think I think that's the big one. And I guess there's some of these like big classic races that we have gotten away from in the US. So like and it's just not to the same level as the Europe races, though, like a Mount Washington road race, like that used to be much bigger event than it is now, and it's like fallen out of favor a bit more. Um it would have been a really cool field this year if they did the full, but it was like you know, snowing up top in June or whatever, like um so yeah, I I'm not sure. I'm not sure how I just think like the US isn't Europe, and I think like it's not it's not gonna be for a while, and like it's just a different scene.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, it's interesting. I mean, this is the I mean this is partially on me too. It's like how do we like I want to build continue to help build those stars? Like, for instance, like people like yourself, Christian Allen, Ana, uh Lauren Gregor, like there's quite a few, like now Taylor Stack has kind of arrived, you know, and it's like how do we continue to build these names and get the the public just excited about, you know, like oh Dan's gonna go race, I don't know, Cirque Series Canon, right? So how how do we follow that race? I also think too, dude, like I think we need more uh like live streams. I think that's something like the 200 mile races have like really tapped into, and like that's all Finn talks about is like these these fucking like 200 mile races, and it's like I'll gladly rip Finn on some 200 mile. It's not a sport, but that's you know, whatever. It's um I said that. But anyway, yeah, it's like I but but it's like got a cult following. That's the thing that drives me crazy. It's like we've got this super competitive short trail like sport here that's way more competitive than a 200 mile race is ever gonna be, but yet like uh are people people just I guess just don't get it? Like I don't know, it's very strange.
SPEAKER_02:It was funny in Europe, like because have to dance around some of this a little bit, I guess. Uh Western states is it's I don't know, like it's Western states and it's not like the only race that's important. And so I think sometimes in the like I sometimes in the US I think we forget like I think the sport is in Europe like much more than it's in the US. And we in the US like get in these weird bubbles of like people don't care about the like about Cocodona and the way that they do, like if you're at Cocodona, like of course, like it's and it's probably the same thing. Like if I'm at like I think Kismet Cliff is like a legitimately cool race because of the terrain, because of the course, like because I think a very fast time on it is right about two hours. Like those are all kind of cool metrics, but and so being there, I'm like probably biased. I'm like, this race is awesome, like it starts in such a like scenic spot, but you're you're biased because you're there, right? And like I think some of that happens with the like Kokodona stuff where you're just like sucked into this thing that I don't know, and I hope it does grow and I hope it's cool and all those things, but I don't know if that's the best way to grow the sport. At least that's not how I think it's best grown. That's not necessarily the direction like the David Goggins, like super ultra distance stuff. Um I think it's more accessible and easily grown from a more accessible place, which is like, you know, most people who are generally fit and like hike could go do a cirque series race. And that stuff's awesome. And so the more of that that's that happens, the better. Um, there's a bunch of these little local New England races that happen that uh, you know, you have a ton of people come out for that are just like local enthusiasts. Um, but you don't hear about it because a lot of the coverage is the same thing they've done for the last 20 years, and that isn't gonna help the sport. Um, but the people may be excited about the new race that's 200 miles and they do a better job with the media, that's gonna be better. Like it that might grow faster just because there's more coverage of it. So yeah, live streams, um, Golden Trail doing their little like highlight reel pulls from within races, um, especially on descents that are gnarly. I think they shouldn't overly push people falling. I think that's like a weird, like weird way to do it. But um yeah, if you have a golden trail race and you've got someone like just smashing a descent or like actively racing someone else, like that's awesome. Like that should obviously do well. Um so yeah, I think like personally, I I know I've probably said this on here before, but I think the stuff where you're like, yeah, pull a 20-second clip of two people like mobbing down some ridge, like that's just aesthetically cool. And I think the fact that it is just more it's just more digestible for like social and all that stuff. Um yeah, I don't know. I think it's gonna I think it's gonna grow, like I think it is, and I think like the two best finishers at um Gold Shell final were Americans that uh weren't I mean Taylor was the best of the Americans and Europeans at the final, like more and like outright won the race. So I think that's that's a good sign, I think, of stuff for us. And uh yeah, I think that'll all just keep growing. Um but yeah, I'm part of like an ultra Discord channel thing that Finn is Finn started, and like and there's like yeah, I'm watching like up super early watching the like golden trail final. It's on HBO Max, which is like that's super cool. And then the people are seemingly like I think it's a weirdly skewed group, but they were like talking about this like 200 mile race, and you're like an American just won the golden trail final, like right, right. Like, yeah, like moral winning is that's crazy, it's so awesome. Uh yeah, so yeah, we gotta we gotta continue. There's different weird bubbles in the US, I think. Yeah, uh and I think the I don't know, it's partially the athletes too. Like, I I can get weird on this for myself because it sucks to like post on Instagram. That's true, but that's very true, but you you're not being training. Yeah, but if you want to be your like own best friend on that thing to like help the sport to like share more things is good, I think. Um but it's easy to say that like I wish Taylor posted more of like his daily training or something like that, or like was more active on there, but I don't either.
SPEAKER_01:Like nobody does, yeah, yeah. No, dude, like I mean Anna, I think Anna does a good job of telling more of being more of a storyteller, but that's it. Like, there's not many, and she's like actually Rachel Tomaichek, I think does the best job.
SPEAKER_02:Rachel does a fantastic job, Anna does a fantastic job. Um none of the dudes, the dudes also and aren't doing super well. I love Remy's post-race recaps. I think that's a really cool thing. I wish more people did. Um, I have so many ideas on things I want to do for this stuff that I don't do. I have like sitting on so many hundreds of hours of GoPro video that I've just never done anything with, and uh that is one goal for the next year is to uh be much more active on that stuff. Um so so yeah, I think part of that is the athletes can help themselves. I think early part of I think Jim's uh following is obviously from like the Coconino Cowboys stuff, and that is partially an effect of those guys like leaning into that side of things a little bit. Um and maybe that was because they're in an era when it wasn't quite where it's at now, and you have to like fight a little harder to get the backing. Um so I think that can be good for a sport if it's you need you need some of the like I think and everyone uses this, but like climbing is a good example of a lot of this stuff because you have so many of those people, so many of the best climbers in the world have their own YouTube channel. And in the in running, we'd be like, Oh, that's not something I want to do. Like, I'm above that. You're like, why? At worst, you're getting people excited about running. Yeah, like that's the coolest thing. And uh I think in climbing they just had to do it because they it originated from a place where they weren't gonna make money otherwise, and um maybe there's just some difference personality-wise there too. But with running, we're like outside of Killian, and Killian's the best possible like example in any sport, probably, but yeah, I think partially it's a mix of like the media side of things and the athletes all need to maybe work together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, dude, like hear me out here. Like, this is just a just a spitball idea. Like you and Remy go out to Boulder, right? For I don't know, March to do like a training camp, right? Dude, I would like what if we made like a like a steep stuff, like just like embedded with you guys for like a couple workouts and like videotapes of them, talked about what you were doing, and dude, I think that would hit so well. People would like would love that and learn more about you, learn more about Remy. There's this, you know, you guys are funny, and then I don't know, throw Kyle Richardson in on a workout or something like that, and like get different personalities. Like, I don't know, you sell that, and I think you start to you could you could create your own mini like series or something like that. And I think people would love that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I mean like I would love to do that for sure. I think partially, I think a lot of the athletes do have ideas of stuff, and at least at least I do. I think about this a lot. And Remy and I talk about this kind of stuff a lot. It's just like, ah, what do you do? It feels fundamentally different if I were to like interview myself here for an hour talking about all this stuff, put it online. Whereas if you come forward and being like, hey, I'd like to talk to you about that this stuff, like it doesn't feel it doesn't feel douchey to say my opinions because you're asking me. It's obviously different if I'm like just spraying them uh unprovoked, like into the internet. Um but maybe that's cool too. Like maybe that would be a cool thing. Like with Remy's post-race recaps, I've thought it would be kind of cool to just do straight video self-interview style, like just talk about it. I think that would be cool. I don't do it because like it's it's hard to do that. I don't know. Um yeah, so maybe I just need to get over myself. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I listen, man. I we I've told you this the last time, like, and you told me how much like I don't know, like GoPro videos and stuff that you have. Like, get that stuff out there, man. I think people would love that. Especially like, dude, especially like of all like the technical descents in the northeast. I'm sure you have videos of of like running down, like people would eat that up. And like you can make a couple reels, and I'm not saying become an influencer because that's weird, but like do like I don't know, just do enough to get your uh you know, to get people excited about it and continue to build. I know, like I said, I think we we are in this place where we need stars in the subultra category or in the short trail, and you're definitely like one of them. So, you know, you need to continue to build that.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, some of it just feels like yeah, self-important and that kind of stuff. And uh yeah, I mean, I do have a bunch of videos I think that would be entertaining. I have like a video from last winter of like with a buddy, we were on like a ski, we were like skiing like up in Canada, and we were like decided to not take the trail back to where the road was to the car because it was like we hoped we could chop like two miles, and like took this heinous bushwhack where we had like three river crossings, and it was like in Canada in February or where whenever like it was like very cold, and I like fall into the river with my skis on, and I have like a video of this on my GoPro settings somewhere, like a 15-minute clip of like bumbling around, and I'm like, uh, it would be kind of cool to post some of that stuff. I just don't totally know like yeah how. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Well, dude, I feel like we got everything here. Thank you so much. I don't want to take any more of your time. We're almost at like an hour 30. So I think this is a good place to stop. And uh, dude, wishing you the best. Enjoy your off season. Uh continue to keep things rolling, and obviously we'll be in touch. And uh hopefully I'll be bumping into you. I mean, hopefully I'll see you in maybe June at Canon if you're there. If not, okay, I'll see you in the northeast at some point.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, and and we're totally oh boulder, boulder. Yeah, that was in January is the plan, barring anything going wrong, I guess. But uh yeah, so it'd be cool to come down and run with you at some point.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, dude. Yeah, I gotta get you on the incline, man. Especially uh if you haven't been on that. I would be terrified to not beat Allie McLaughlin's time.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, I think everybody feels that way. So fast. I think that's like the most messed up, one of the most messed up records in the sport.
SPEAKER_01:It's so fast. Oh, dude, she's a monster, man. Yeah, she's another one. But yeah, that's the incline. I haven't been on it in like six months. It's been a while. So I gotta get back on there one of these days. It's just too many other fun trails, you know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Is there a cool way to like descend back around and kind of like flap the incline and then like descend back? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's actually like two or three different ways. Like you can we have like bailouts on the sides. There's like two bailouts off the top, uh, or really you can go off the top, but there's a two bailoffs, one's like uh I don't know, a thousand feet up, one's like fifteen hundred feet up, and then the other one's like at whatever two thousand or whatever feet. So yeah, it's you can you can do some fun stuff with it. I mean, I think for someone like you, especially like when when you guys get especially with Remy as well, like oh, I think you guys love it just because it's uh you know it's it's all steps, so it's I mean, I think Remy Bonet like ran the entire thing, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I'm sure he did. Yeah, which is kind of crazy to think about because there's some steep ass shit in there, but yeah, I think you'd love it.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, we'll we'll come down and that sounds awesome. And uh the other goal is make maybe I'll see how fast we can make Remy run down it or something. Doesn't he hate technical descending or something? Or it's become a bit of a thing, like because we've joked in back and forth so many times about it. But uh one of his goals I know for the winter is to like work on that stuff. And so like I need to work on my climbing and like durability, and he needs to work on that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01:And so it yeah, it's just kind of a joke at this point. Dude, I love it. Dan, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate your time. And uh, dude, thank you. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. What did you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Always a big fan of Dan's. Uh, and I know you know I give him give him praise a lot, but gotta give him praise. Dude is one of the best, uh, one of the most talented athletes to uh enter our sport in the last probably decade. So want to give him uh his flowers and always appreciate his thoughts on the sport and uh what he wants to what he wants to do with the sport and where he thinks it's going. So, guys, the best way you can support Dan, you can hop on Instagram, give him a follow. You can find him at Dan Kurtz. Pretty simple. That's just Dan Kurtz, C-U-R-T-S. Give him a follow, let him know what you guys thought about the episode. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. Um or not. I don't know. But either way, give him a follow. And uh, yeah, all good stuff there. Guys, thanks for tuning in. The best way you can support the podcast, uh, if you enjoyed this episode, amongst others, is to give us a five-star rated ring and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you consume your podcast, all good stuff there coming out. We've got lots of video episodes coming out now. I've started exploring that space on YouTube and Spotify. So most of the um episodes dropping in YouTube and Spotify are going to be video based moving forward. At least all the ones I do uh on Zoom are going to be, and the ones I do in person sooner rather than later will be on as well. So good stuff there. Last but not least, you can support our brand partner Ultimate Direction by going on ultimatedirection.com, checking out some of the new vests and belts they're dropping along with their pole quiver. Use code Steep StuffPod. That's right. One word Steep Stuff Pod for 25% off your cart. That's gonna get you uh 25% off anything you're looking for on there. They just dropped a six-liter race vest and a 12-liter ultra vest. They've got a great pole quiver, they've got some solid belts. They also have apparel as well. Check out the Schlarb Schlarb short schlarb shorts, uh, named after the namesake Jason Schlarb, uh, the man, the myth, and the legend himself. So uh guys, have a great weekend. Hope you enjoy this on your long runs on Saturday or Sunday, and uh thanks for tuning in.
