The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#133 - Abby Lock
A sharpening workout at 10,000 feet. A sudden stab in the chest. Vision slipping. Hours later, Abby Locke learned her right lung had collapsed—and that was only the beginning. Across one summer she weathered three collapses, seven chest tubes, helicopter flights, and two surgeries, then found her way back to 50-mile weeks with a new definition of strength.
We talk through the full arc with honesty and grit: the ER chaos, hospital routines, and why “take it easy” is dangerous advice for driven athletes. Abby details the shift from vague rest to a precise, metrics-based return—heart rate caps, minutes-based progressions, and a deliberate habit of undershooting. We dig into the identity quake that comes when sport is stripped away, and how watercolor, friendship, and a gentler mindset helped her rebuild. She shares practical wisdom on training by feel, listening for pain signals, and balancing risk without living in fear.
We also explore what’s next: genetic testing, altitude questions, and a smart path toward longer trail races where intensity spikes are fewer. Abby opens up about coaching, sub-ultra roots, and why the northeast’s technical trails deserve more love. The takeaway is bigger than running: gratitude changes performance, diversified meaning sustains motivation, and a broader life makes you braver on race day.
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Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Abby Locke to the show. Abby is an elite trailrunner based in Durango, Colorado. And just a few months back, she was getting ready for the race of her life at the Broken Arrow Ascent. She was doing her last workout and unfortunately suffered from a collapsed lung. And then just a few weeks later, suffered from another one. And then the following month in August, had another one. So over the course of June, July to August, Abby suffered from three collapsed lungs, spent multiple weeks in the hospital, had a total of seven chest tubes, two surgeries, and helicopter flights to get from Durango or the Southwest Colorado up to Grand Junction to get to the hospital. She has a crazy story, and I think it's something everyone could take a lot away from, especially the fact that she's such an elite athlete at such a high level, had an em some amazing finishes in 2024 and was poised to have an incredible season in 2025, and the sport itself was ripped away from her. I don't want to go too deep into the episode. I want you guys to listen to it, but there's just a lot of a lot of a really big comeback story in this, and uh one of inspiration. I think you could take a lot away from it. And it's also a story of just not getting too attached to a sport or identifying and drawing an identity from just one thing. It's it's really important to uh identify with many things. So without further ado, I really want to thank Ab Abby for coming on the podcast and telling her story. Um hope you guys enjoy this one. Abby Luck. Abby Locke, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_01:It's going well, James. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Stoked to do this. I think to get used to it. Yeah, I'm stoked to be here. I think to get us started, like, yo, your story is crazy. It's it's a it is a wild one. Like I've just spent the last three hours of my day reading through your substack and like trying to like piece together everything and like get it all put together. So I think that's that's probably a good place to start, is maybe talk about your story and we'll start from I guess uh like June 13th and we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty wild ride that I've been on. Um, so uh on June 13th, I was finishing my training block for Broken Arrow, um, the ascent. I that was my main race. Um, that was kind of gonna determine the trajectory of my year. I was hoping to earn a spot on um the USA team for vertical. And uh I love that race. I love you know the vibe and just the course and everything. And I um I was excited to go back. But I was running my final sharpening workout, which was it was a VO2 session on Engineer Mountain, right north of Durango, Colorado. And uh it starts around like 10,000 feet, and you go, you go up to like 13 something. Um, and so I had some like one minute intervals planned, and it wasn't gonna be a long workout, it was just gonna be like intense. Um, and so I I started the I started my warmup. I felt fine. I was a little tired, but you know, nothing crazy. And I start my intervals, and by the time I hit maybe like my maybe like fourth one or so like that, I uh I got this crazy sensation of like almost like a muscle cramp in my chest on the right side. And I was like, well, maybe I didn't hydrate well this morning, so I'm just gonna see. I'm just gonna keep going. Like, so I I did my walking rest and then I started another interval, and the pain got more intense, and then it started to work its way up into my neck and into my face. And I was just very, I was unsure as to what this was. And of course, being, you know, an athlete, a runner, you just kind of like you you write off pain or you like push through pain. And I kept, you know, I would take my rest. And then it started as I was getting higher and higher up the mountain, it started like my I was starting to lose my vision, actually. And that was what really cued me into being like, okay, I need to like really figure out what's going on here. So I sat on the side of the trail and took a few deep breaths and like really tried to kind of like put myself together in peace, like what was actually happening. Um, and it got a little bit better as I was sitting there on the side of the trail taking some deep breaths. And uh, so I got up, I tried for another interval, and that one was where my body would just stop me in my tracks. And I was, you know, I was at that point in a lot of pain, and uh I was like unable to see, and I was like, okay, like this is this is serious, like I need to, I need to turn around. So I walked down and I I think it was probably maybe like a two and a half to three mile walk. Um, and it took me close to like two hours to get down, just because every couple steps I would lose my vision and I like would be really short of breath and I had to sit down and just kind of like, you know, collect myself to be able to take more steps down the mountain. And uh yeah, I I got back to our vehicle at the time I was living with my partner in a mini bus conversion. And I I even took a client call, um, a coach, and I uh I was on the phone, a FaceTime call with my client, and you know, I had make I made the appointment, so I wanted to honor it. Um, and I'm sitting there and I'm looking at the little screen of myself and I'm watching my the color drain from my face. And I was like, I need to, I need to get off this call. And come to find out, I I sit there waiting for a little while for my partner to return from his run. And uh by that time, I was very short of breath. The the pain was just like really intense, radiating up into my face. And I was like, I need to go to the ER. By the time I get to the ER, I was like, wow, if this is a panic attack, I'm gonna be really embarrassed. And I told them that. And they were like, oh, honey, this isn't a panic attack. Your lung, your right lung has collapsed. And I was like, floored. I I had no idea that you could even do that. You know, like I had heard of that in trauma instances with like a car wreck or something like that. Um, but yeah, they they said that I had collapsed my right lung and they were gonna have to put in a chest tube, which is essentially they go in through the ribs and they try and get the the lung to reinflate with suction. And so that's like an emergency procedure. They they gave me like ketamine. You're still awake and breathing for it, which is a little crazy. Um, but the ER doc was awesome. He he kind of like set me up and was like, envision a place that you love to be and doing something that you love to do. And you know, that was easy as a runner. You go to your favorite trail or whatever. And that was, yeah, that was the first collapse of my lung and the first chest tube of many that you may have read about. Um, so that was kind of the catalyst for everything that has, you know, basically blew up my whole, my whole year, my whole summer, and uh really shifted my perspective on life and training and athletics and everything.
SPEAKER_00:So crazy. Yeah. Let's let's uh all right, let me let me backtrack a little bit on this. Like I guess we could tell the story, maybe tell the story, keep it rolling for the second and third collapse, and then I'll ask questions like based off that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So from there, I was in the hospital. I was in the the local hospital in Durango for a few days. The typical procedure with a collapsed lung is they put a chest tube in and they do, you know, they try and get the lung to reinflate, and then they take you off suction. Um, and then they test to see if the like the tube is still in you, but they want to make sure that the lung can like stay inflated on its own essentially without any help. And uh, so you have to pass a water seal test, is what they call it. Um, and so that keeps you in the hospital for a while because they have to play the waiting game of will it stay up for 24 hours? And you know, it's just kind of repeated. I was getting multiple chest x-rays, you know, at least one a day. Um, and so I passed my water seal test. They they took the tube out, and um I was I was not given great instruction. I was told go easy for two weeks. So as an athlete, we all know what easy, you know, to us is not two, zone one, zone two. Yeah, exactly. What does that mean? You know, like that's so arbitrary. And um, yeah, nobody was giving me heart rate zones, no one was giving me aerobic threshold, nothing. I was trying to ask questions, but nobody had any answers for me. So I go home, I stay with my parents for a little bit because you know, I'm trying to heal. And I to me, easy is zone one, hiking on the uphill treadmill for 90 minutes, you know, maybe doing like a really easy zwift bike. Come to find out, two weeks later, I am on the stationary bike and I started having a crazy pain in my in between my shoulders this time in my back. And that, you know, it radiated. At first, I was like, oh, it's just, you know, like, I don't know, that's weird. And then it started radiating up in my neck. Um, and then I was like, ooh, this is not good, not good at all. And that one was really interesting because with the first collapse, I actually came into the ER with like 100% O2 sat. And they were really surprised because I had been at altitude. I, you know, the lung had collapsed quite a bit. It was a moderate size. And um, with the second one, it was such a small collapse. Like they thought that high flow oxygen would help and they put me on high flow. Um, but I my O2 sat was in the 80s, which is very low for me. And I was my fingertips were turning blue, like I was very cold. It was much more dramatic the second time than the first one, honestly. And so when I go to the ER in Cortez, which is an even smaller town than Durango, they essentially tell me, you know, there's not much we can do right now because this is your second collapse. You know, we can't just play the waiting game with the chest tube because it didn't work the first time. Clearly, you need more intervention. So I was um flown in a helicopter up to Grand Junction, which has a larger hospital. And that was where I received the first surgery. And that was essentially what they do is they scar up the inside of your chest cavity and they get the lung to reinflate and stick to it. Unfortunately, that hospitalization, I was in the hospital for a little over two weeks for that one, um, just because of complications and a lung collapse is a waiting game. Quite like it's just like this you get a chest x-ray in the morning, and then they test it and they chest x-ray you again. And it's just this kind of, yeah, this cycle that you're stuck in, um, waiting to see if the lung will adhere. And so I finally was able to go home. And, you know, I just I was very cautious this this next time. I was only walking, you know, maybe like 20 minutes, um, two to three times a day is what they told me. And I followed that. My PA was amazing. She really like, you know, she listened to me um and what I was doing in my training. And she was like, okay, like we're gonna, I'm gonna give you exact parameters to follow here because clearly you need more structure. Like there's something here that, you know, you you're not gonna be able to dial it back yourself. So here's what we're gonna tell you to do. And I stuck to that. Um, and you know, they cleared me, they cleared me for activity. I think it was four weeks after um or two weeks after the initial that initial surgery. So I was starting to, you know, not just flat walking anymore. I was progressing. I like hiked on the local mountain around here where um, you know, it was like 90 minutes, very easy, zone one. Um, but unfortunately, uh five weeks post op, my lung collapsed again.
SPEAKER_00:Was it the same one? That's one thing I wasn't clear. It was so still the right one.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. It's all the right one. Yeah. Yeah. And they were they were absolutely surprised. They they were floored by it. And um, they had to fly me again back up to Grand Junction. And they did a more aggressive procedure um called a chemical chloridesis, where it's not just like the manual scraping of the chest cavity. It's actually like they they used oxycycline um to irritate the tissue further, and they did a more aggressive um scraping. Sounds really gross, but that is what it is. And uh the lung then adhered and I didn't have as many complications, I didn't have as much pain that time. Um, the hospitalization was shorter. I I think overall it was just like a much better experience than the first one. I was able to go home, and that transition to home was probably the most difficult because I had already, you know, gone through surgery the first time and it didn't work. So I didn't have a whole lot of hope. I was really, you know, in a pretty tough spot. Um, you know, like just mentally, physically, everything was kind of falling apart, you know, and I uh it it has taken a lot of time, but as of today, I'm actually 12 weeks t 12 weeks removed from that second surgery. And I logged my first 50 mile running week last week, and I'm on my way to the second one this week.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing. Do you yeah all right? Let's let's backtrack this a little bit. Do you have any like any history of anything like this? The reason I ask is because like I I read this as an athlete and I run at a high level and I love what I do, and um, and it's kind of and like many people listening to this probably have an unhealthy relationship with running where it makes up a huge part of your life. Yeah. Um you were kind of forced, like it forced you to break with break up with running for a little bit. It really did. Do you have any background like with this? Like, or did it just kind of come out of the blue?
SPEAKER_01:This came out of the blue. I don't even get a cold. You know, I my parents both work in the health field, um, but I have I've never set foot in a hospital. Um, it was it was jarring, it was brand new and entirely jarring because I was on the cardiac floor in um in Grand Junction, and you know, I'm surrounded by folks who have had open heart surgery and have had, you know, just like really intense things happen. And I am the only one that's mobile, basically, with these chest tubes. You know, I'm walking laps, you know, around the unit, and everybody's like, you're doing great, you're doing great, like what are you in for? You know, like they're just so like shocked. You're you're so fit, you're so young. You know, being the only person probably under 50 on the floor both times was um it was quite isolating, but honestly, it was quite insightful because I don't think, you know, we take our health for granted when we're young and being able to, you know, appreciate the things that those little things that you miss, like just being able to open a window, you know, or like go out and like enjoy the sunshine, you know, not even not even running, but those very simple things that on the daily basis we take for granted, you know, let alone able-bodied athletes. Um, and so that was like as hard as it was, I must say that like I've grown more as like a person, as a human, in the past like, you know, four months than I have in years, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. Yeah. Do you think I mean, like, obviously getting ready for broken arrow and the fitness level you were in, uh, especially for the ascent, I mean, that's a lot of uphill VO2 work. Do you think it was just like you were just stupid fit and that's the reason you had 100% oxygen sat? Like, is that probably what it was?
SPEAKER_01:I believe so. I mean, like, I looked at my my hemoglobin hematocrit numbers. Um, they were they were really high and I was doing altitude training, I was sleeping high. You know, I think I was I was lucky um with that first collapse and how dramatic it was. Um, because eventually, you know, like with a lung collapse, the reason that it can be fatal is it can crush your heart. So they, you know, for a lot of people, it's kind of you're racing the clock. For me, I didn't get care for like five or six hours. And um, you know, like to have O2 sat that high, I'm very fortunate. You know, that's not that's not normal. Um, and so I I definitely attribute my fitness to kind of getting me down that mountain safely and uh being able to like, you know, hang out for the amount of time that I was waiting for my partner at the time. So yeah, I I feel very fortunate.
SPEAKER_00:I can't believe you took a client call. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Like that's I know.
SPEAKER_00:Like at what point in time did you like start panicking like midway through that? You're like, man, like maybe I shouldn't be on this.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe I should yeah, maybe I should go to the hospital. I like I said, when I was seeing myself turn white in the little FaceTime box, I was like, all right, you know, maybe I should call it. And I texted her later when when uh the procedure was done and I was in my hospital room. I was like, you're never gonna believe this. I was talking to you with a collapsed lung. So uh yeah, if that says anything about my my personality and my love for coaching, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Let's let's let's pivot a little bit. I want to get into like some of the deeper aspects of it if you're if you're open to talking about this. Absolutely. Just because it's like and I kind of alluded to this in an earlier question. Like, I think a lot of us athletes, people listening to this, like I have like a borderline unhealthy relationship with the sport just because you love this so much and you play, especially for someone like you. Like, you know, you had an amazing season in 2024, you were poised to have an amazing season in 2025 and compete for a spot on that world's team. Like, I I'm not saying you'll never be there again because it's definitely like in the cards for sure, but like how has it changed your relationship with running? Like, how do you view that now?
SPEAKER_01:It's changed it massively. I was so single-minded in my focus. Um, I was living, eating, breathing, running. Um, you know, my my other roles as like I'm a coach. I also work for a running reviews website. Those things are like still very present in my life. But I'm also looking towards other ways that I could connect and like share, you know, somehow like my life experiences and like help others. And so I'm looking at other avenues for that. And I think that this whole deal has like broadened my horizons immensely and really put into perspective that running is it's fleeting, you know, it isn't gonna be there forever. And we have to be comfortable sitting with ourselves sometimes. And I think that as athletes, we can often get so caught up in staying, you know, ever for like moving forward with progress all the time. And, you know, just like that that movement, that constant movement. Um, and I think, you know, literally having to sit with myself, you know, not being able to go even on a walk, really. Like I couldn't walk for more than 15 to 20 minutes at a time. So, you know, what am I gonna do with all this, you know, 20 hours of spare time? And I I turned to new hobbies, you know, creative pursuits that I haven't touched in a very long time. Um, it kind of like also makes you lean on your friendships a little more because sometimes with running, it can be so it's kind of a it's a selfish endeavor when we really think about it. And so when you no longer have that, it's like, okay, I don't want to focus on myself all the time. How can I, how can I show up for other people? And how can I, you know, be a better friend, be a better daughter, be a better, like granddaughter, even. Um so I think really it was an opportunity to kind of look deeper and create a more sustainable relationship with the sport and like just with my own humanity.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's weird, right? Like when you running's taken away from you, you start to realize like how much of it your life it takes up, which is it does a little crazy. You mentioned, you know, being a better friend, being a better daughter, like you know, you don't realize like the sacrifices you make to be an elite athlete. Like it you I mean, I mean, people spend what 12 to 25 hours a week playing in the mountains, plus all the other little things that go into it. Like it's it's a job.
SPEAKER_01:It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's it's a weird, I don't know, it's a weird thing. Like the fact that like we're all called to do this. I don't I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, but I think it's also we have to sometimes take a step back and remember, you know, nobody's gonna remember your Stravagraph or your Strava crowns, you know, at the end of the day. Like, you know, it's morbid, but when you think about it on your deathbed, like what remains is our connections with other people and the impacts that we've had in each other's lives. Um, and so that's kind of you know, my realization with things. And I I love running and I always will be a runner, whatever capacity that looks like. I'm not attached to the outcome, but I think that you know, when it comes down to it, I'm not just a runner and I'm so much more. And we all are, we're all so much more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and I think that well, I don't know, not that just that makes you a better person, but I think that makes you a better runner in the long term, just because you're not married to a result anymore or married to this aspect, it it kind of changes things. What what new hobbies did you pick up? Like I you're obviously you're you're an amazing writer, like your Substack, and I'll link that in the show notes so people uh can get to it and uh read it. But also you also review um for WeViews as well. What kind of like other hobbies like have you picked up or jobs and things that you've been doing?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so I really got into watercolor, which is fun, it's a fun medium, especially for me and and anybody else who's type A, because watercolor is finicky. There is no, you have some semblance of control, but a lot of it is up to like, you know, the water balance that you have on the page. And so there is an element of like having to let go and just like accept what comes. And so that was the reason I picked that. You know, I was like, what is something like, and I wouldn't consider myself a very like artistic person. Um, you know, and I just like one day woke up with the idea, like, I need a creative pursuit that I can sit there and learn, like try to like attempt mastery that I could do when I'm 80 years old. And um that was what called me. So I've been I've been learning how to how to watercolor, and that's been that's been super, super fun.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. Now you had mentioned your mom uh was doing some knitting as well. I picked that up in one of your subsects. Did you pick up any knitting as well?
SPEAKER_01:I uh you know, I haven't picked up knitting. Um, it's a little too like repetitive. I wanted something that I really had to think about and like kind of I enjoy drawing too, so that the watercolor complemented that nicely. The the knitting is a little too repetitive, like I said. I'm like, I don't think I could get into that, but I respect it. I think it's a great, it's so cool the blankets and stuff she makes. I'm like, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool. That's cool. You had mentioned control. This is such an interesting aspect because I feel like I I guess it's a type A thing. I'm kind of a lunatic, like a lunatic about this with certain aspects. Like you want to be in control. Like you want to, if you're with a group of people, you want to drive. There's like different things, like with type A people like wanting to be in control of stuff. This is one of those weird times in your life where like you don't really have a lot of control mentally. How was that uh I mean, obviously the watercolor helps and stuff like that, but ultimately like overcoming that aspect and realizing like it's almost like this fear and anxiety, like like will this come back? Will this happen again? Like, how how have you been able to kind of like work through that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a that's a great question because it's not it's not a finished process, right? It's very much in the works, and that's something that I've had to really, yeah, sit with. And I think it sounds a little cheesy, but I think that you know, I've kind of leaned into a little bit more of my spirituality through this. Um, because when you accept your powerlessness and you just kind of like you realize that ultimately we don't have any control, um, when you kind of lean into that a little more, you invite space for something bigger than yourself. And that is, you know, whatever God of your understanding, you know, that that might look like. Um, for me, that's kind of been something that I've found. And um I have a brand new appreciation for that um that I didn't have before, if I'm honest. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Yeah, and I it's it's yeah, it's such a crazy, I don't know, it's a crazy thing to kind of just let go and just like back off and like, man, you know. What does running? I guess like what obviously running looks a little different now. You just hit you're working on your second 50 mile week. How careful are you? And like how like how do you like grapple with like do you do workouts? I don't know. I'm sorry, I'm all over the place with that.
SPEAKER_01:No, yeah, that's a great question because I think it was something that I really had to think about as well. I'm like, okay, what risks am I willing to take? And to me, I was just like, okay, the only things that I can control is just like intensity progression and volume progression. Like I'm gonna treat it like I would for a client, you know. Um, I'm just gonna monitor the metrics that I can and go off of those and kind of like undershoot. I think that's been my goal. Like, okay, I know I could do this, but I'm gonna do like 10% to 20% less than what I know I could do. And not, you know, as hard as it is, not pushing myself because I think I was always very like, okay, I if I just like push for the next level, the next level that it was like, you know, that was very fulfilling, but also that doesn't help with healing. So kind of learning to learning to undershoot and to just be like, okay, did I feel better after that run or did I feel worse? Am I having more chronic pain, more inflammation? And using really tuning into the body, um, that's been really helpful, which is like the opposite of what we do as athletes sometimes. We're like, oh, like, you know, we got to ignore that pain because we gotta keep training. Um, but for me, I've kind of just like gone a little softer with things and really honored what the body is asking for.
SPEAKER_00:Do you like consult with doctors? Like, I'm sure you have a team now, a group of people that I'm sure you're you're doing a lot of uh going for checkups and getting checked out and stuff. But like, do you tell them like, oh, this is this is what I'm gonna be doing? Like, and this is what I plan to get back to? And what are those conversations kind of look like? Are they cool with that?
SPEAKER_01:So it was interesting. Um they actually, my surgeon, the at my like most recent surgeon for that most recent appointment when they cleared me, he's like, Oh, you can just like resume training as normal. And the PA was standing behind, like, she was just like, No, no, no, no, no. You know, and so because she knew my case a little bit better. Like, he's a great surgeon, but he, you know, wasn't familiar with me as a human. He knew I was a runner, but you know, that that's so like you know, that can mean a lot of things. But she was very much more tuned in and like, okay, you know, we're gonna, I want you to just be really careful with your progression, but you know, ultimately, this the surgery should, you know, allow you. You to run at high altitude, um, to do all the things that you've done before. You just can't go scuba diving and you can't fly in an unpressurized aircraft. Those are the two things that you can't do. And I'm like, well, I don't swim, so scuba diving, that won't be a problem. Yeah. So really, yeah, they've cleared me to do anything that I want to do and that the body allows for. So that's ultimately like my hope is to just, you know, listen to the body and and you know, take whatever it can give me, really.
SPEAKER_00:You would you would alluded to in one of your write-ups um about like potential long-term stuff, like not being totally sure like what caused this and and if there could be something underlying or whatnot. Um, like, are you going through a battery of tests to try to figure that out? Like, how does that, what does that look like going forward?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. That's definitely been kind of the the sort of Damocles hanging over my head, right? I think that um so there were CT images of my other lung that indicate there is a like a thinning, um, which is essentially what they think uh collapsed the first lung. And so there's possibility that it is on the left side as well. And so, you know, they they want me to go for genetic testing, um, gonna get established with a pulmonologist, all these things to kind of get the get that ball rolling to kind of understand what may have caused this. Um, it is an interesting phenomena that I, the PA who worked with me, she worked at an Air Force base, I believe. Um, and she said it was very common for folks going through boot camp, uh, like a highly stressful period, um, low little sleep, not great recovery, that you know, a lot of them would actually collapse their lungs. And um, she had seen a lot of that. And so it's kind of interesting. It usually happens to tall, skinny men, but it can happen to women too. So um there is a there's a chance that it's not entirely genetic and it is just something that I was born with, and you know, um, it will be fixed with with surgery, but yeah, there's there's kind of some unknown there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, that's great. It's so nuts. Like, what an interesting thing. Do you um so being in southwest Colorado, like Durango, Cortez, like I obviously you had to get airlifted and you had to go up to Grand Junction. What is it like as far as like living there? It's gotta be tougher to get like good medical like treatment, right? Like I'm surprised they didn't send you to like Denver or like Albuquerque or something or Salt Lake or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they um I'm actually gonna go to Denver for my next, like for my specialists and stuff, um, because they are a bigger institution. But um the care in Grand Junction was incredible. So I must say, like, even though they're not the biggest hospital, they were absolutely, you know, incredible people. So yeah, it's living in an isolated area makes it a little more, I don't know, uncomfortable. But at the same time, I know that you know, I I got great care where I went. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The other question I have with oxygen sat is um and like lungs and stuff like that. Would it benefit you to like low live at a lower altitude? Like does that ever come up well?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's definitely come up. I mean, like, you know, for healing purposes, um that was kind of a discussion, like yeah, my my roommate actually brought it up. And I it's funny because I'm just I'm from the area and I've never had an issue. Um I think to me, the pairing of the high altitude and that really intense workout, that's almost it makes me feel a little bit better because I don't need to touch those two things at once. Um, that's definitely something that I can opt out of and still perform at a decent level. So, you know, that I think like if it is the case that I've had this my whole life and I've gotten this far without it happening, I mean, you know, like again, we can only control so much. And I think that the I don't want to live in fear, but I want to be smart. So I'm kind of walking that that line.
SPEAKER_00:The living in fear aspect is the hardest part. Like it's almost like you gotta be an incredibly like strong human to not have anxiety and worry about that. Like, dude, I had like a uh I had a small injury like in April slash like through June. And I've been I always get stressed out. I'm like, oh my god, is it gonna come back and stuff like that? And that's such like little things compared to like what you're going through. So I can't imagine what it's like thinking about like, oh my gosh, like could this happen again? And how do I work on that? Um, I do want to pivot a little bit and get back to the surgery stuff. I just find this so interesting, like as a nerd. Dude, it must have like freaked you out having to get, especially in you you were very descriptive in one of your write-ups. I think it was the first one when you had your first collapsed lung where they gave you ketamine, but it was like a in a local anesthetic and then they cut you open. Like they don't put you out, put you out for something like that.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. So it was it was actually quite powerful because ketamine is, you know, they use it in therapy and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:Hell of a drug. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It is, it is. And I must say that the first time that they used it, I think it was a combination of like the adrenaline from being told that I was, you know, I had a collapsed lung, and the um surgeon actually walking me through that process of like go to your happy place type thing. I actually had a really powerful experience where I kind of like had a bit of an ego death where I just had this like wave of acceptance wash over me. And I was, I felt, I don't know, like I just kind of felt like whatever is meant to be will be, you know. And that was really there was it was somewhat cathartic because yeah, they are. They're like fighting your intercostals to get this tube in. It's really messed up. Like it's it's not fun, like by any means. But I must say that like that um that experience wasn't all that traumatic because yeah, they they actually did a good job with like getting me to calm down and like in the right headspace. So and then I've had so in total, um, when I count like everything, I've had seven chest tubes, um, and then like those two those two surgeries and two flights for life. Like it's just like this checklist of craziness.
SPEAKER_00:But seven chest tubes. That's crazy. So you're you're pro by now.
SPEAKER_01:That's all like I I tell I joke. I joke. I have like friends who are in nursing school. I'm like, so when they do your unit on you know, chest tubes and all that stuff, like just bring me in. I can be, you know, I can be a consultant for placement and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:I was kind of amazed at how much you knew about like different like pharmaceuticals and stuff. You're like, oh, just just take this for nausea or something like that. And it was like a Zofran, yeah, for tip for ultra runners. I was like, that's interesting. Never heard of that in my life. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, like so. I used to work as a compounding tech actually in a pharmacy. So I'm a little more familiar with drugs, and my parents are both in the medical field. But yeah, like the Zofran saved my life when I was in the hospital. So yeah, I highly recommend if your doctor's willing to write for it, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Crazy, crazy. All right, let's pivot a little bit. I want to talk more about you as the person um and get into like you as the coach, you as the writer, you as, you know, where like where you want running to go now that you're on this kind of a different path. Um, let's talk about you and the coaching aspect. Like, how do you how much do you love coaching? Like how long you've been doing it for, and like like how is like how is that going for you?
SPEAKER_01:So uh, you know, I really do love it. I kind of I keep a pretty small roster of folks because I do so many other things. Um, but the folks that I do have on, I absolutely love interacting with them. Um and just like, you know, kind of I've been with a lot of these folks for quite a while. And uh it's it's just cool to watch them grow as athletes and kind of like be a huge supporting role in that and um kind of like exploring their own potential, whatever that looks like. I have some folks that don't even race, they just want to like have big adventures and you know, I'm I'm there for that. And uh so I've been doing this, I've been having clients probably since late, well, I guess late 2020, early 2021. Um, I did kind of start in the weight loss space and it wasn't for me. And I did, I was like, okay, like I how can I direct this more towards athletes? And so now I I work um with folks on their endurance nutrition plans. Um, and then I also do just like programming for you know, skiing, running, whatever kind of endurance pursuit.
SPEAKER_00:So interesting. How long have you been running for? Like, did you run all the way back since like high school?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I did. I ran in middle school, but I didn't end up going to college for running because I I wanted just like a normal college experience. Um, and I think that actually saved like my relationship with running a little bit. I think I would have burned myself to a crisp had I run in college. And so um, yeah, I'm actually quite even though I have regrets, I'm like, oh, would I be faster? Would I be more, you know, like, but I think that ultimately it made me a happier runner. So maybe I'm faster for that.
SPEAKER_00:Uh probably. When did you like discover the trail scene? Like, when did that become a thing for you?
SPEAKER_01:I think, you know, it's funny. I was kind of thinking on this the other day, and I would say that um Courtney DeWalter going on uh Joe Rogan, uh and it's so like cliche, right? But I remember that interview and I was just floored. Like I knew people trail run, like that was in my awareness, but I just remember that being a really like an indelible mark on my memory. And then I ran my very first trail race in 2019 at the Moab Trail Half, um, and just loved it. Like I was like, oh my God, like this is so much more fun than like road running, you know? So um, yeah, that was kind of like my where I dipped my toes in. And then I didn't, I didn't race a bunch. Like I was just kind of like, I just love training so much, and I just love being out in the mountains. And then like I think last year was where I really got a little more serious and was like, okay, like let me dip my toes in like more competitive fields. And so I, you know, went to Broken Arrow and got in the top 10 for both the 23k and the and the VK. And then I did like Mammoth Trail Fest, and you know, I was injured for like the the big race, the golden trail race, but I did run the ascent and absolutely loved it. So I was just like, I don't know, it racing has definitely come more on my radar over the years.
SPEAKER_00:What was that like for you? You had pretty much immediate success. Like you were like pretty talented in the sport, like almost right away. Like for 2024, I every year is the most like I we always say like the most competitive broken arrow, right? Like 2024 is stupid competitive. You get in the top 10 of both of those races at BA. What was that like? Like, were you like at that point starting to think about okay, how do I get partnerships, go through the sponsorship kind of realm? Like, like, like what were you thinking about at that point?
SPEAKER_01:I think I was just floored because I I had had so much self-doubt for so long because I didn't run in college, I didn't compete. I was like, who am I to stand on the starting line with these incredible women? You know, like who do I think I am that I'm gonna like run with Tabor Hemming, you know, Rachel Tamashik and like all these girls. Um and so that was really a cool experience to like run with them, compete with them, interact with them. They're lovely humans and the the vibe, like the community of the trail running, like trail running in general, and then like broken arrow itself was just yeah, it just really reinforced some self-belief there that I didn't have. And um, so that was that was quite powerful, you know. I I definitely I I leaned further in after that.
SPEAKER_00:Crazy. And then for you, so you were injured for the Mammoth Trailfest and still got like I was top 20 result like in a golden trail year.
SPEAKER_01:Talk about it. Yeah, I uh I did some dumb things in training where I just I just flew a little close to the sun and I uh had an IT band injury that was just like it was hammering me. Like it was just not not moving along. And so I took, I want to say I took like maybe a week or so off, or maybe it was only like four or five days off before the dragons back ascent. And I didn't run a step, I didn't, I hardly walked because it was like it was debilitating pain. Um, and I was like, well, you know what? We're gonna try it. It's all uphill, it shouldn't hurt that much. And uh, so I was really stale, but it was so much fun to just like I was redlining immediately, you know. And uh yeah, like I get up to the up to the top and um like getting chased through the the finish line with the cowbell and everything, the energy was just like it was so much fun. But then I I made the decision to run the is it the the longer distance, is it it's not 23k, it's a little longer.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a 26k? 26k.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 26k. And that was the golden trail race. I'm like, you know, I'm here, I know I'm injured, and it's probably gonna set me back a little bit, but I'll just take some time off and it'll be okay. And so I I did run it, and it was not a fun time. I definitely just like had to jog a lot of the downhills um because the downhill was what was like really agonizing. So it wasn't, it definitely wasn't how I would have liked to debut in Golden Trail, but it was a wonderful experience to just like tow the line and and run that beautiful course. And yeah, don't regret it.
SPEAKER_00:I read something about you, I think it might have been on WeViews. It was like one of your like bucket list races, and I saw on there the Pikes Peak Ascent. Is that still is that like if you if you make this comeback, is that gonna be on the list for next year?
SPEAKER_01:It you know, it was on the list for this year. I had I had my elite entry, um, and that was gonna be my you know.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm on the board of breaks. I remember this. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I I the idea was if I didn't make the team, I was gonna A race pikes. And um, so and yeah, like that race, just the fact that you can go a half marathon all uphill, that's like right up my alley, because I don't love going downhill all that much. So um I would love to be able to do it in the future. I think the altitude at the moment kind of freaks me out, just with everything that I do have going on. Um, but you know, if I was in a place where I did feel a little more secure in in the body and and got my test results and got an idea of what I'm up against, yeah, I would absolutely train for that.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting. Like you, I I could tell just by talking to you, uh, and I'm sure the audience picks up on this, just like how much you love like the you know, the sport and running and just the form of it. Will you will you ever allow yourself to like get in that mindset again of like falling back in love with I guess with the competition aspect of it? Like let's say in a perfect world things progress and you start to feel good again in the way that you did before. Um, or will you not allow where you keep keep yourself a multidimensional person and and keep running in a different bucket? Like, how will you kind of shape that up?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've thought on that a lot because it is starting to feel more realistic. Um, I do think, you know, I want to I want to dip my toes into the longer stuff because you don't need to do, I mean, you should do VO2 work, but you don't need to do as much VO2 work. So that's kind of where I see that appeal. Um, but I do, you know, I I always admire um Rachel Tomajik, she talked a little bit about this on the pod. And like I I admire her ability to kind of separate the identity and really have a lot of balance there. And that's something that I want because I want longevity in the sport. Um and I think that the way that I was approaching things was burning the candle bulletins. And uh yeah, I think ultimately I I want to like fall in love with the sport, but maybe it's a different type of love. It's less, less obsessive and a little more, a little more healthy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, balance. I think with anything in life is is balance. Um shift gears a little more. I uh I was I think I was lurking your, I can't remember if it was Strava or maybe it was Instagram. You spent some time out in the northeast doing some northeast trails this past year. Yo, talk about that. The northeast is dope. I think it slept.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, so fun.
SPEAKER_00:So much fun.
SPEAKER_01:The cat skills are so fun. They I at first I've been out there a couple times. Um, my previous partner was from uh the northeast, and he has the, I believe he has the FKT for the cat skill, um, the devil's path. Yeah. So we went out there several times, and it took me, I would say it took me like a handful of runs to be able to kind of wrap my head, my ankles, everything around it, and be like, okay, I'm not gonna die. I just need to like really pay attention. It's a four-limb, like you're you're climbing, you're you're using all four limbs, and you're so engaged all the time um that you don't need music. You don't, you're you're in it, and you know, you can spend five hours out there banking like insane vert and not pay for it because it's at sea level. Yep. So it's so much fun. I I think that it like Northeast is just like highly ununderrated in terms of trail and and the sub-ultra scene. I think they have a really cool, like the um run the whites when they were doing the segment um contests essentially. I think that's a wonderful idea. I wish more folks in the West would kind of take, you know, do stuff like that. Because I think everything's so centered around ultra um that it'd be fun to see more, yeah, competitive sub-ultra type stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that'd break. That's like a whole different podcast we could do. What's your what's your take on that? I do, I this drives me crazy. I feel like in in the US, we are so ultra like ultra-centric. I was on a group run last night, actually, and I just heard like a newcomer to the sport was talking about, oh, you know, my longest race has only been a 15K, and I I just, you know, I I can only do this. And I'm like, that's great. 15K is awesome. Like you could run that really hard and get the most out of yourself. Like, we have this culture in America where everything's like 50k to 100 miles, and I don't understand that. Um, obviously, you I mean, for the most of your career, it seems like you've done pretty much everything under a 50k. Like, what got you so excited about like the the short trail scene?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, for myself, I found a little more success with it, especially because it's like you know, shorter, steeper, uphill stuff that is like my bread and butter typically. Um, the I I did run 150k, and it was funny because it was back before we understood spring energy. And I remember I I took in, I think I was doing like maybe if I was lucky, like 10 to 15 grams of carbs an hour at like, you know, in Silverton, the 50k loop there. And I just I blew up so hard. I took a wrong, I took multiple wrong turns. I it was just my first, like, it was my first ultra, and I just like totally dropped the ball on it. So that kind of like I was like, okay, like I don't know, that was really painful. I'm gonna try and like go shorter and see how see how it goes from there. And um, yeah, I just found more I found more success and I really enjoyed the shorter, spicier stuff um after that like 50k experience.
SPEAKER_00:Essentially I wouldn't say I had the same exact situation, but yeah, I ran a 50k. It was like my first race, had a terrible, terrible day, and yeah, really like the short stuff so much better. I don't know why. But I guess it's you kind of like gravity to the stuff you find success at.
SPEAKER_01:So I guess you do, you do, yeah. But there's definitely a part of me after going through all this, um, you know, that is very curious about the mental aspect of ultras. Um, I do think that is something that I haven't fully explored and that I I want to at this point, um, because I remember sitting in the hospital with multiple surgical chest tubes and not not sleeping for like four or five days. Um and just thinking to myself, you know what? I think an ultra sounds pretty easy after all of this. So yeah, I might end up doing that in the long term.
SPEAKER_00:Is there any like races that call to you? Like uh Black Canyon or something more mountainous? Like what like what stands out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think right now I would I I would love to like do something like uh Black Canyon, where it's like a lower, lower altitude, that kind of thing. But I'm also you know, I'm open to there's this race in um it's in Silverton called the John Cappus. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, I've been been wanting to do this race for years and it just never fed in on my uh on my calendar.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And so it's kind of you know, it's one of those races that you can go out there and just you know, kind of you're you're hiking a lot, you're route finding a lot. And so, you know, you never know how the day is gonna turn out, but there's plenty of plenty of opportunities to bail. So I could, you know, go out there with some girlfriends and just have a big adventure day. So that also appeals to me. So, you know, I I think it's just gonna be, you know, like what the what the body allows for and um mentally what I can, you know, maintain some balance, um, but also pursue a goal.
SPEAKER_00:So I love it. Uh and on the topic of John Cappy is like, yo, that is, I mean, I I don't want to blow it up too much because I feel like it should be uh like a community community.
SPEAKER_01:It's a low-key.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I don't um we'll talk about it offline, but like it's don't do it, people. Don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's horrible.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, I lost my trade of thought. What was I? So we talked about ultras. We talked about, oh, yo, do you just have like a whole new like understanding and like level when it comes to pain? Like and as well as like that mental unlock where you feel like you can do anything now after kind of going through all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny. I was talking to a friend on a run the other day and saying, Wow, my my fear of running downhill hard, it's like not there anymore. I, you know, because I'm like the bodily harm that can come from like eating it on a downhill pales in comparison to what I've been through. So there is some like weird thing like mentally that I've unlocked there. And there is like a less, I would say I was a baseline, pretty anxious person before all this happened, and it's almost taken me down a notch and and been this um yeah, grow like experience that is really put things in context. Like, is this really all that bad? Or, you know, are we like hyping things up in our brain?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the thing. It's like, dude, we worry about work and all this garbage, and then when you're actually faced with something with your own mortality or you know, with you, like I it really just kind of puts things, I guess, under or in in the right peripheral, you know, in the right direction, like where you can nothing really matters when you're when your health is on the line, you know? Absolutely. Nothing really matters, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, I must say that when I did spend, because over the summer, I spent about a month cumulatively hospitalized. And so when you're in that environment and you see folks that are entirely dependent on a caregiver, they can't speak, can't walk, you know, they maybe don't have family in the rooms with them. Um, it's it's hard to see, and you really you put things in context and you're like, wow, I feel really fortunate. Like even though I'm going through this really dark thing, you know, there are so many people that would, you know, they would give anything to just walk around outside, let alone, you know, explore the mountains like on foot and run, you know. So that that definitely kind of put things in perspective for me.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure. I mean, you know, yeah, you when you're in a hospital, you see people coming in and people leaving, you know. It's it's a it's a it's a really difficult, I don't know, it's it's just a it's a lot of humanity that you don't normally see in everyday life. So yeah, it's not an easy thing to uh kind of grapple with. And yeah, we are very lucky, especially, you know, most of the people listening to this, you know, it's a it's a running podcast, so most of them are runners, you know. And I think a lot of people put maybe just so much undue pressure on themselves to perform or this and that. But like you said in the beginning of the episode, like no one's gonna remember you if you I don't know, if you win a Cirque series race or a Golden Trail race, like it's it's over and nobody really cares in a few years, you know. Yeah. Less than that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean by the next next race, you know? It's yeah, that that really doesn't stay around.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a good stopping point. I feel like we do you feel like we got everything. Is there anything else you want to get into?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think so. I really appreciate you having me on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. I I really appreciate you coming on and telling your story. It was a great conversation, and uh yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Of course.
SPEAKER_00:What'd you guys think? Oh man, well, what a powerful episode. Uh, I want to thank Abby so much for coming on the pod. Uh, I really appreciate her um just uh openness and candidness and being willing to talk about the hard stuff. Um, you know, this can't be an easy situation to go through, and you know, she just shared it with thousands of people. And uh yeah, that's gonna be a tough thing to do. So I really appreciate her being willing to talk about it. So guys, you need to support her. The best way you can is to give her a follow on two different things. Uh first and foremost, give her a follow on Instagram. You can find her at Abigail D Lock on Instagram, that's Abigail D Lock. I'll link it in the show notes. And also her writing is amazing. Um she frequently posts on Substack, so I'm gonna link her Substack in the show notes as well. And you can find her at a D Lock, that's a D Lock one word, um, or just type in Abigail Lock on um on Substack and uh subscribe and give her a follow. And uh yeah, her writing is amazing, and it's a good sub it, it's a good uh um I guess a supplement to the podcast as well, because the podcast does tell the story, but I think there's a lot more information description and some of her write-ups and stuff like that. So I think it's it kind of goes together with it. So um yeah, give her a follow on both of those. I'm sure she would really appreciate it. Um last but not least, guys, if you enjoyed this episode or if you've been enjoying the podcast, um if you don't mind, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. That would mean the absolute world to me. And it's how we can continue to uh tell the stories of these amazing athletes, uh, much like Abigail's um yeah. Uh and very last, last last, but not at all least. Uh the best way you can support uh another another way you can support us is by supporting our brand uh partner, Ultimate Direction. Uh give UD a shout. Use code Steep Stuff Pod, that's one word, Steepstuff Pod on ultimatirection.com for 25% off your cart. Um yeah, they just dropped a brand new pull quiver, uh, a whole new vest lineup. In fact, I'm actually going up to HQ in a couple weeks to check out a new iteration of a new vest uh that's gonna be coming out, which I'm super pumped on. I'll be modeling that, by the way. Um and yeah, super cool. Um yeah, use code Steep Stuff Pod. That's gonna get you 25% off anything from UD. Much love to them. And uh yeah, uh guys, thanks so much. Have a great weekend. I hope this podcast uh accompanies you on your long runs or on your workouts this weekend. So thanks for following along. Much love to all of you.
