The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#136 - Alicia Vargo
A broken back, a fractured knee, and nearly a year off running—then podiums at Pikes Peak Ascent, Kodiak, and Moab. That’s the arc Alicia Vargo takes us through, sharing how a brutal dog attack in 2024 unraveled her season and how skate skiing, patience, and stubborn belief stitched it back together. We start with her fresh Moab Trail Half podium and the course’s split personality—slickrock step-ups, sandy slogs, and off-road pavement—before moving into the training mindset that keeps her sharp late in the year.
From there, we head home to Breckenridge. Alicia talks altitude as the quiet performance lever, the surprising strength of the local community, and why winter skimo and skate skiing are the perfect mix to preserve fitness without the pounding. Then we go deep on her recovery: delayed diagnoses, crutches, months of uncertainty, and the tentative first races at Broken Arrow that proved her body could hold. She opens up about Sierre-Zinal’s balcony trail, heat shock, and the crowded chaos of European starts where elbows fly and gels get trampled.
We zoom out to the sport’s big questions. Should women have separate starts or days? Alicia weighs the trade-offs—clear competition and spotlight versus thin fields and lost atmosphere. She revisits the early Nike Trail years, shifting to Hoka, and why the sport once nudged athletes toward ultras due to a lack of short trail opportunities. Now, with Golden Trail, Broken Arrow, and the Rut, short trail finally looks like the welcoming on-ramp for D1 talent and the most TV-ready version of mountain running.
We also talk storytelling. What Coca-Dona got right with long-form livestreams. Why commentators who race—like Dani Moreno—can translate chaos into context. And why Alicia’s skeptical about the Olympics reshaping trail into a TV-friendly shadow of itself, much like skimo’s shift. Through it all, her message is grounded and energizing: protect the mountain identity, invest in women’s race formats, tell better stories, and give athletes the room to come back strong.
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Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Lorello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Alicia Vargo to the show. Alicia is an absolute legend in her sport, has been around the sport for the better part of the last decade, and was kind enough to come on for a conversation. We talked about it all. We talked about professionalization in the sport. We got deep into her 2014, 15, 16 timeframe on the Nike professional team and the one of like, I guess, the original Nike Trail team. We also talked about joining Hoka in 2017 as a professional athlete and just kind of how far the professional scene has kind of come over the better part of the last decade and where she's excited to see things progress and go and kind of the direction she sees the sport going. We also talked a lot about women in the sport and we kind of got into Golden Trail series and kind of you know potential for separation of races between the men's and women's races, why there's pros and cons to kind of each. We also talked about her 2025 season, where Alicia has had an amazing season, just literally a couple days removed from her podium finish at the Moab Trail Half Marathon, which was the US ATF champs. She also got on the podium of the Pike's Peak Ascent this year, which is a super iconic race, and raced the Golden Trail series, uh including series in all and the Broken Arrow 23K, where she had just been coming off an injury and was able to compete at a high level in both the ascent and the 23K, which is kind of crazy. Um we talked about coming back from injury. Um Alicia had um suffered from a pretty crazy injury in 2024 that had major setbacks, and she was able to uh kind of fight her way back, which I think is a very compelling aspect of her story is fighting her way back from turmoil and tragedy. Um definitely some things that we get into in the pod. And um, yeah, she tells an amazing story and one of inspiration and grit and determination. And yeah, definitely one of the most special humans I think I've I've had on the podcast. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. I know I did. Without further ado, Alicia Vargo. Ladies and gentlemen, sweet Alicia Vargo, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks for coming on. I'm so excited to uh to finally welcome you to the pod. I feel like you're one of those names that have been in the sport for a really long time and just like steeped in lore. Um it's funny. I listened to like set I listened to like seven podcasts with you on it, like before this uh just to get ready for this episode. And I was like, man, how do I keep this a little bit different and tell different stories? The good news is you just got back from Moab where you got a podium finish at the Moab Half Marathon. So maybe we can we could start with that a little bit and talk about your experience this past weekend at your race.
SPEAKER_00:Moab was great. That's the second time that I've done the US uh trail half marathon championships. And I feel like living in the mountains, it's like always this nice like last warm hurrah before winter settles in here. So yeah, it was really fun. The course is really funky too. Um have you been out there before?
SPEAKER_02:I have not. I was actually gonna ask you about this because like the only photos I've seen were on road, but I've heard there's a lot of slick rock in it, too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a lot of slick rock, and then there's some road section that like is also kind of, I think, meant for like, you know, really extreme, like off-roading. And so it it also makes for kind of in, I don't know, it's kind of a playful course, I guess, where you're just sometimes you're laughing, you're like, oh my gosh, like when I have like nightmares before races, that like the race turns into like an obstacle course or something. If I don't know if I'm the only one that has those kind of dreams, but that's like what the course is like at times, where you're just like, okay, like now I'm scooting on my butt, and now I'm like taking this like huge, like one-legged, you know, drop off. Um, and then there's like really sandy sections where you're like feels like you're running at the beach, and yeah, it's just kind of like all over the place, but I like it. It's it's it's cool. I don't think there's anything that I could compare it to.
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna say, as in asking as like a coach, do you I mean, like obviously do you put this as like an A race in your training block? The reason I ask is because like, do you do anything specific in Breckenridge trying to get ready for a race like this, or it's just fitness basically?
SPEAKER_00:No, I it's always like a bonus race. Like the the two times I've done it, it's been like, all right, Moab's next weekend, like my legs are still, you know, cooperating, and we still have like dry trails here, so like let's just go go for it. But yeah, I think it's just like you just need good fitness, you know. Like, I don't think there's anything you would do to like prepare for that kind of course because it it's like a little bit of everything. Like you mentioned, there is some road, there's slick rock, there's like see steep, um, like some steep, kind of like punchy, um like like slick rock, like step-up sections. And yeah, it's it's all over the place. So I think you just need to be fit and like or have hope you have leftover fitness from like the summer and fall of racing and just kind of go for it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How was the field this year? Was it pretty competitive compared to previous year? Like the previous year you had done it, or it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:In my opinion, it it felt like it was. I mean, I I was racing, I was like back and forth between third and fourth with a gal all the way to the finish line. Like we finished like a few seconds apart. So to me, it felt like really competitive because I I had somebody like breathing down my neck the entire way. Um, and I think it's yeah, it is kind of an odd time of year where some people are just like tired and ready to be, you know, done with their season and wrapping things up. And then I feel like you you're always gonna get a few people that still have like a little bit left in the tank. So you can't show up expecting that it's gonna be a walk in the park, at least is how I view it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, and it's true, it's a weird time of the year where folks, especially on the short trail scene, like people are usually doing one of three things either getting ready for like a marathon or half marathon block, or they're trying to extend their trail season and do something like this, or folks are stepping up and doing things like JFK, right? Because like that's a what a five or six hour race for the for the leaders. So there's like, I don't know, I feel like there's some options for this time of year, but it is a weird time of year for things. Or you could be like me and just just do nothing, just do a bunch of bass. So there's options. Um so you had said, I know you've been in in Breckenridge for a for a small chunk of time now, raising your family and and just living the life. What do you think of how do you like Breckinridge, first of all? Like is it is it a cool running scene, or is it more like transitory with uh just the amount of I don't know, people that are non-local that kind of come through as far as the tourist goes?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love it. Our family loves it. We didn't really know what to expect when we moved here, though. We were thinking that it was gonna feel just that like heavy tourist flow, you know, where like you kind of lose the local community. I I think we can all relate to like being to resort towns and you're just like, wow, like this is insane. But Breckenridge is pretty unique and then it does have like a really good core local community, and they have really good housing programs here, like housing help programs. So it's just the the core of the local community is just like hardworking kind of families, young families like us that are they want to be in the mountains, and so they're just like hustling to make it happen. So the tour stuff kind of like goes on in the periphery, but like the core community is is really amazing, and you don't really feel it like unless you go to the grocery store or you go to ride the lifts like on a powder day. Um, like all the local communities are kind of tucked away from that craziness, and the running is insane, it's so nice. The the trails are so varied and so beautiful. Um, it's like I feel like it's one of the best kept secrets in at least in like the Colorado mountain area, that it's really sweet. There's you can run like smooth single track, you know, you can obviously like get up into the mountains, you can have like everything in between. So but it's high, and I think that that's like the X factor is like it's high enough that it's it's pretty uncomfortable if you're not used to that, similar to like Leadville. So yeah, but we love it, it's amazing. We we totally lucked out on moving here because we left Flagstaff to move to Breckenridge, and so it wasn't like we were leaving like Midwest suburbia or something, like we were coming from like a really amazing, you know, running town, like mountain area. Um and we're like, we can always go back if we don't like it, but we we really love it here, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02:See, I I love that. I like that there's towns that still because I've had you know athletes that from other mountain towns like Tell Your Ride and and other parts of Colorado on the podcast, and the thing that never comes up is like affordability, just because you read so I mean I'm I'm in Colorado Springs, right? And I feel like that's one of the last few affordable places in the entire state given like the circumstances. So that's cool that they have like housing, like affordable housing options for folks to still kind of move there and live that mountain life. Yeah. Um, and you don't have to be, you know, Jeff Bezos to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, the the town has made like a really huge push to open up housing and put it in the hands of locals. So there's like several different programs. Pretty much everybody we know is in some sort of affordable housing.
SPEAKER_02:That's cool. How's it like I've never I've always wanted to go run on the ski, like at the ski resort, like in in summer. I just always have like a different option or something like that. And I just never wind up making over there because like you got the 10 mile traverse, like you have so much stuff in that little area. Like, do they let you on that ski resort to go run in the summer? Like, is it is it oh, is so it you can do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, no, there's actually like a pretty good trail network on the ski resort. I'd say, like, if I were to prioritize it, like if you were gonna come up here for the weekend and go for some big runs, that'd be like one of the last places I tell you to go. The trails are really nice, but like there's much better options, like kind of like all around, kind of sandwiching the ski resort. Um, like you mentioned the 10 mile range. There's some like really cool trails, like between the 10 mile range and the mosquito range, and then the gore range, I think, is like where it's at. It's slept on yeah, it's really beautiful up there, just so quiet, too. Like barely anybody goes up there. So come up with yeah, technical.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, in the summer, in the summer, I'm gonna have to make it up there. It's funny. I've had some I had some friends even in, I don't know, we just had some such had such a weird season this year where things have run so late. And I had friends in like October going up and doing like, I don't know, they'll run up like past Mount Victoria, like even like over Peak One and kind of drop down. And I was like, man, like there must not be a lot of snow up there. This is uh good opportunity to get into the high country. It's a weird, yeah. We've an unusual ski or uh unusual snow season this year.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it I mean everybody's like getting antsy, but it's like winter will hit up here, you know. It's caught it's coming. So I'm just like I'll just enjoy the dirt while I can.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. What's what do you kind of transition into skis uh usually in the off season?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like schemo type skiing. And then I just started skate skiing last year, which I I love. I'm I'm so sad that I've missed out on it the you know previous years of my life because it's like a really wonderful way to experience like different experiences snow in different ways, but like also your fitness. I feel like if you can do both of those things in the winter and mix in some running, uh you could you could stay really strong. And the trails are also like there's a lot of runnable trails up here in the winter, so you don't mind like bundling up, it's pretty sweet.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the cold. I have a friend that lives in Silver Thorn, and I'm just like, dude, I don't know how you do that. It's cold on another level. Uh I'm I'm so partial to the springs because it stays, I don't know, like so warm down here. It's so warm. Um yeah. Have you ever tried roller skiing? I just got into this like last year. And while Colorado Springs is not the ideal place for roller skiing because you have a higher probability of getting hit by a car, um, it is awesome for fitness. I was kind of like really impressed with roller skiing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I I talked a big game this spring that I was gonna like roller ski in the summer. And then when it came down to it, I was like pretty afraid to get hurt because I'm still new to skate skiing, and so I I definitely like take falls on snow and it's soft, but then like the thought of like falling on pavement in that same manner, I was like, oh, and I'm coming off some like pretty complex injuries, and so I was like, I don't know, I don't I'm too chicken, I don't think I'm going to, so maybe next year y'all have to check back in with me.
SPEAKER_02:I don't blame yeah, I don't blame you. It's it's honestly, I think it's harder than skate skiing. Like, I think it's and maybe people will disagree with me. I'm not a big skate skier because we just don't have a really like solid snowpack here. Having skate skied and having roller ski, I think roller skiing is like at least uh yeah, a degree harder. Um, let's talk about that. Uh as far as like injuries go. You you came back, you had an amazing 2023 season, and then it seemed like took a break in 2024, maybe fighting through some injury, and then came back and just had a like an extremely impressive 2025 season, getting to race a bunch of races. Um, what what do you think as far as your overall season? Like, how would you grade it? How excited uh were you to be back and kind of on the scene this year?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I would say like grateful kind of summarizes it all. I mean, I I think most runners go through periods of time of injury um where it's like hard to imagine yourself running again and and doing it at you know a level where you feel like you're doing your fitness justice. And so yeah, I just didn't think I was gonna ever be able to have the chance to be a runner again, which was definitely kind of brutal after getting some traction in 2023. Um 2023 was like the first year after I think I had like a six-year break for to have four four little kids. And so I was like so excited to get back into it and just kind of like really um working for every bit of progress, and then like yeah, and last summer of the 24, it just like all fell apart. And so yeah, I I feel very grateful that I got another chance this summer, and and I didn't know at the beginning of the summer, like, oh, I'm gonna race this year. It was like, hey, I I'm gonna jump in this race and then like see if my body holds up. And then I I never had like a long-term plan with it. I was just kind of like taking things as they came. And so it definitely ended up on a much more positive trajectory than I expected. So now I'm like, oh no, I like I want there to be more racing season left, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. Well, I'm so happy that you're able to get through it, uh healthy, no issues or anything like that. If you don't mind me asking, what did you deal with in 2024 injury-wise? That kind of set you back.
SPEAKER_00:I so I um was out for a run in June of uh 24, and I was I was mostly planning on doing like the Golden Trail series races. So I was getting ready to leave for Mont Blanc in a couple weeks, and um I got attacked by a dog really badly um and broke my back and my teleoplateau and a bunch of like soft tissue tearing, meniscus injury, um, transverse process. So yeah, it was like it was bad. But you know, I think a lot of times, like you're like, okay, like I'm just gonna the bones are gonna heal and then I'll be I'll be fine, I'll be back at it. But just that the injuries were like in different areas of my body, and like they kind of became more complex as time went on. Um, so yeah, last year was just like just kind of ridiculous trying to figure out like which doctor to see, what plan to follow, one area of the body making another area worse and kind of playing back and forth with one another. So yeah, it was crazy. I mean, I think I love dogs, like I I love, love, love dogs. This was just like such an extreme situation that yeah, I I still am like, I can't believe that actually happened.
SPEAKER_02:Holy crap. Did you um I mean what was the the recovery process like? Like how many months did this take before you were back to like running? I just find it really interesting because this is a horrible accident, horrible injuries, and then 2025 you're back again competing against the best in the sport on the short trail scene, which is hyper competitive. How long did it take to get for you to you know really start running again? And were you doubtful that you know you would ever be back to the level that you had been?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, for sure. Yes, I was very doubtful. Um, so it happened in June, and I didn't start running again until April. So it was like a good 10 and a half, 11 months. Um, I think what helped is that the nature of the injuries did allow me to ski. And so like that's why I started skate skiing and like I was still able to like keep some fitness, but um the injury that was in my knee, I couldn't really straighten my knee and I couldn't stand on it without pain. Um, and so it was crazy. I'd like could go ski for two hours, but then if I step out of my ski boots, my knee, I couldn't put weight on it. So I just like stand on my left leg and I was on crutches for quite a while and then was supposed to get surgery. And yeah, it was just like really complicated. And the the knee fracture wasn't found initially, um, just the back fractures were, and that became like the whole focus of the recovery. And I kept complaining, man, but my knee really hurts. My knee really hurts. And so I found out three months later that it was also fractured in the incident. Um, so that definitely like elongated the recovery process. The fact that like I had this broken bone that now had like you know, edema and swelling just from me like bopping around on it, trying to get back to, you know, normalcy because my doctors were like, all right, like you're good to go. But there were like unknown injuries, I guess, that just kind of kept stalling out the process. So yeah, it just kind of became like a tangled web of chasing around like medical answers, which I know a lot of people go through. You know, it's you rarely go to a doctor that is like treating you head to toe, you know. If you just have like an Achilles injury, that's one thing. But like if you have kind of a complicated um range of issues, it's like hard to find somebody that's like, okay, here's a game plan. So yeah, it took me a long time to figure out what that was. Um, so yeah, long period of time and no running. And then I started back like a tiny bit in April, and we we actually had a trip planned out to Broken Arrow in June, and I had no business racing, like because I had barely been running. But then we got there and I was like, oh, like I could, I can at least run uphill. And so I did the vertical, and it was like pretty miserable as you would expect if you haven't been running. And then, but I had um, I also had a bib that I had gotten it, you know, whenever the registration opens, like that previous winter for the 23k. And so I was like, I don't know, we're here, and so I ran the 23K, which also was very miserable feeling, but it like gave me a lot of hope because I was like, well, my body didn't break down, so maybe I can keep running through the summer, and so that just kind of like fed forward into the next thing and then the next thing.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. I mean, it's so crazy to hear that you didn't start running again until April and still had the season that you had. That is bananas. I mean, I know you can get super fit on skis, but you must just have like a crazy base, like just from all the years of running, that like it's it you kind of like I don't know, just didn't lose much, which is really interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe, yeah. I I definitely think the skiing saved me a bit there. But the the tricky thing with running is just the pounding, right? And like yeah, so like you start back to running after a long time off, and it if you've had an injury, it's like all the other areas of your body have to get used to that pounding too. So I feel like it's very common that you just are have all these little fires that you have to keep putting out, and so that was definitely the case for me. Like the more I tried to run, it was just like one thing after another. But I you know, I don't know if I've ever like worked as hard as I have this summer to to fight to get that recovery in progress. Like, I I think I felt like a lot of like fire and like feistiness that it was like taken away from me from something as silly as a dog. And I was like, no, I like I want to reclaim this, like I don't want to be like broken and you know never feel that you know sensation of like being out on a beautiful trail and just like moving freely and like at the speed that you're used to. And I I just I really wanted that back, and so I I definitely like fought for it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's super common too. I mean, to go through, you know, tumultuous injury and then wanting, especially for how long you've been in the sport and as many things of you that you've accomplished and done, it's kind of easy to just I don't want to say give up, but it's kind of easy to just be like, Well, I did this and you know, it's a really hard road back, but it's it speaks to the testament of who you who you are as a human to kind of fight through and and come back. And you know, I I said, you know, just a crazy season, second at Kodiak, and it seemed like it's really cool because yeah, Broken Arrow, you were top 20 and but really top 15 in both, and then had a great race at series and all, and then Kodiak, Pikes, and Moab, you know, you're on the podium of all three. So it's kind of cool to see the progression throughout the season of you just getting better and better and better in the body, kind of responding to Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I appreciate that. It was um yeah, definitely I felt like I was asking more out of my body than it was like ready to give me every time I stepped on a starting line. But then by the end, I was like, no, I'm actually like I can I can handle, you know, the Pikes Peak Ascent or Kodiak. Um, it wasn't like as much of a reach. And so that felt fun because then you're like, okay, now I just get to go race. Like just think about racing and not like is something like zears and all. Uh you know, I really didn't know if if something, if I was just gonna be like in like extreme pain in the middle of it. Like I had something like my knee and my back were bothering me, and I and it's a point-to-point race. And I was like, I have to get to the finish, like there's no other way, like you have to get to the finish line. So it was like kind of stressful, but then it was, yeah, it was nice to like finally line up to something where I'm like, no, I'm like solid enough, I can get to the finish line, and I actually think I can like try to compete out there and um like have some fun racing people, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Let's talk about series and all just because that's such an iconic race. I went back in the results in previous years because I you've been in the sport for so long that it was like I had to look deep into the thing. That was your was that your first time racing series and all?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, because I knew you'd done Zagama before, but I wasn't showing Series and All.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I that was my first series and all. I was supposed to run it the year before, like after it was gonna be Mont Blanc, and then we we went out to Zagama, we got super sick, unfortunately, but we're able to experience Zagama, and then yeah, it was gonna do Zeros and All in Mont Blanc. But yeah, so this year ended up being my first year. The race is pretty wild. Like, I understand why it has kind of like the mythical, I don't know, like I feel like I've heard all these tall tales about it, and I'm like, how hard can it be? Like it's only 18, 19 miles, but it's definitely a unique challenge and it's a absolutely beautiful, definitely a bucket list race.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What was your takeaway? So it lived up. I mean, it it's kind of funny because like with these big mythical races, we all build up in our minds like what we see on Instagram or social media or YouTube, and then you get there and it's it's kind of different. Like, did it did it live up to the expectation in your head or did it like exceed it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it definitely exceeded it. Yeah, it was spectacular. I mean, the course once you get past that, you know, kind of like iconic, um, steep uphill, and then hit the flat section that isn't actually flat, it's like still continues to to kind of grind your way up. I mean, that I to me it was like this like balcony trail, and it it was it was like one of you know top few trails in my lifetime that I've ever experienced. It was so beautiful, but it is like kind of a narrow trail and you're racing, so it'd be nice to go back and take it in slowly. But yeah, the race is wild, and it I think one thing that's different over there versus like racing here as a female is when I race here, I I don't know, I think people are just like in in general, like pretty courteous. There we have like our own trail etiquette of like what you do and you don't do in a crowded situation. We don't often have really crowded trail races here because of you know entries just being lower and permitting, you know, not allowing that. But over there, it's like it was so chaotic. It I mean, just the pushing, the shoving, like having so many men like being pushy and shovy around you when you're like still trying to race the women's field. Um it it was kind of crazy. Like I it definitely took me aback. And I'm like, man, I need to like sharpen my elbows if I ever do that race again and kind of hold my ground because I feel like I yeah, I just got like that was like a little bit dizzying. Um not being used to like I don't know, it yeah, it was just it was a very chaotic start, and you're then narrowed down into like these super steep uphill sections where you can't move very much. Um, and I think like another thing that if I were to go back, I would prepare better for is it's it's hot. It's hot and it's humid. And coming from Breckenridge, like it's it's a very intense, almost like suffocating feeling. Uh, and I definitely was not prepared for that. I didn't know I was gonna actually do the race, so it was wasn't like I was being neglectful, but in if if I were able to go back and prepare for it, um yeah, I would I would be ready for that. I got like some pretty pretty uh bad feeling heat exhaustion after that. But it's spectacular. I'm sure you should definitely try to run it sometime in the future.
SPEAKER_02:That's my bucket list race. I'm gonna have to, I don't know, we'll see. I gotta see if I can get in, get stuff figured out for next year or the year after.
SPEAKER_00:But before it's all said and done, I definitely wanna the springs would be like great to prepare for that course, I feel like.
SPEAKER_02:You think so? I you know, it's funny, like I'm such a I don't know, it's funny, and you give your give your husband some props because I I still see segments that I'm like, damn, how did he run so fast on this? I was like, did it get more technical over time? So you gotta give him gotta give him some some props for that. But there's um like I don't know, I always complain about the spring sometimes. I'm like, we don't have enough like like 2,000 to like three or four thousand foot climbs. Like I yes, we have Pike's Peak and Bar Trail, and it's like, but you've run that you obviously just raised this. It like it peters out and it's not as steep. Whereas like, and yes, we have the incline, so I don't know. Maybe I just get a little spoiled sometimes, but sometimes I wish we had like a ski resort where I can get those like 17 to 20% like created roads because that is something that like I've struggled in on races. And I'm like, yeah, we have like 17 to 20% climbs, but at least usually the gaps aren't as fast because their footing isn't as good and they're more rocky. I'm like very into the weed weeds on this stuff. So we need to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I I I can see that for sure. I feel like you need to chat with Zach Miller. I feel like he has all those trails dialed. You could be like, give me 17 to 20% grade, like not too rocky, and he he would tell you exactly where to go.
SPEAKER_02:Uh he's he's got the stuff. Yeah, Long's Ranch Road and stuff like that. But yeah, we need, I don't know, we need like an impromptu ski resort that someone needs to open up here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Just for the summer running. Um one of the things I was gonna ask you, and um what do you think about women's like it being separate races, like in the sense of like a separate day for like a women's series and all versus a men's? Just because I've heard that conversation get brought up a lot for women's races when especially um you know you're trying to get through the field and there's dudes like with elbows pushing you guys out of the way, it's just kind of chaotic. What do you think about having them as separate days for the men's and women's races?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I've I've kind of flipped flop back and forth on this because I I think there's like a good argument in both directions because what you don't want is like a separate start in a small field where like women are strung out and it's like you're just kind of in like no woman's land the whole time. That doesn't feel good. It also doesn't feel good when you start 15 to 20 minutes early and the elite men's field is just blowing past you, you know, like that even though you know like I'm a woman and they're a man and we're in a different race right now, like it just doesn't feel good to be past a high rate of speed like that. Um I think that like what Golden Trails series has done with the separate starts for like the championship races, I think that's great because the spotlight is on the women and then the spotlight is on the men. You know who you're racing, you don't you're not trying to like, oh, is that like a ponytail or is that like a guy with with a ponytail? You know, like you you just know who's in your race. Um, but for like a race like zeroes and all or something like that, I I don't know how like logistically how it would even be possible to stage that as a two-day race. And there were so few women compared to men in that race, that like would you have the same crowds out there, you know? Like, would you get that same atmosphere or like Zagama? Um I I don't know, but I I think that like women's trail of mountain running is getting so much deeper than it used to be. And so I think it's something that needs to be considered. I just don't know if I have the answer. Like, because yeah, like you want those you want those iconic races to like keep that same excitement and buzz, like Mont Blanc Marathon, right? Like, what what does Mont Blanc marathon feel like if you spread it out into a two-day race? Maybe not the same.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's we right. I mean, it see in like Headlands a couple years ago, I thought did a great job of of actually breaking it out into the two-day race. Yeah, but there it that's um first off, like that's America, and two, like there's not really a fan base there cheering people on. Whereas I feel like in a lot of these iconic European races, like series in all, Montblog Marathon, Zagama, I feel like what makes those races just so special is having the fan base out there cheering you guys on, giving you guys the energy, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, totally. And it's it and it I I like that it feels wild and chaotic sometimes. Like I I don't like, yeah, I think it adds to just like the adrenaline and the competitiveness, but it's almost like you need to like sign off on like a trail etiquette waiver. You know, like I don't I think I think that sometimes just different people have different, yeah. Like I don't think that if we staged those same races here in the US and had the same numbers, that we would have necessarily the same problems. I don't know why. I don't know why it's different. But like when I ran Zagama two years ago, um we came off, it was, you know, it's like the the classic European mountain race start where you start in town, you do like a frantic fast loop, and then you start climbing up a single track trail. And probably like 10 seconds into the race, I got shoved in the back and and I I fell forward and I caught myself, but all my gels that were in my pack just went onto the pavement and just got trampled. And I was like, oh no. I was like, what do what do I do? Like, I don't that's like all my nutrition for the race. Like that's horrible, that's crazy. But like why why are people being like shoved and pushed like that? I don't know, it's it's it's very different.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I don't know that there's necessarily a solution, but it's like, come on, like, do we really need to be well yeah, and in the U well, I feel like in the US, like I would hope race directors have also the common sense to be like, all right, you see anything like that, like you're you're pulled. Yeah, you can't keep shoving people. Like, what are what are we doing? What are we doing here? Like it's not that's not the reason we're doing this, yeah. Um, and don't get me wrong, like we're all competitive people, like everybody wants to do well, but like when you're shoving people, like that's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think we're all gonna be running like 10-minute pace here in 10 minutes, you know?
SPEAKER_02:So it's like right, right. It's crazy. Can you tell the story? I heard this on a couple podcasts, and like I just was kind of blown away. You got super sick in Zagama and it like derailed some stuff for you too, right? Like, can you can you talk about like getting like it was like pretty bad, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, so the first time I went to Zagama, I got sick soon after we arrived and then was sick for the race. And it was like I'm sure most people have had a sickness before where you're like, you know, you're like this is not good. Like you can, it's just like it's deep in you. And I was running the race, and I'm like, I I I dropped out, and it was such a horrible race to drop out in. I mean, it's just it's the gamma, right? But I like I knew deep down, I'm like, something's not right with me. Like, and I was like pretty recently, I I just had my daughter, I don't know, maybe eight months before that. So I was like, well, maybe the sickness is just hitting me harder because I'm, you know, postpartum and tired and international travel. And I just I couldn't shake it for several months. Um and started having some cardiac issues that what felt like cardiac issues, and just like a weird set of symptoms. And I kept going back to the doctor, and my doctor's like, hey, like you're a tired mom, like this this will pass. And I'm like, no, you don't understand, like, something's wrong with me. So long story short, I ended up having an infectious disease um called brucellosis that is like much more common in like the Mediterranean region, like different areas of like I think like Northeast Africa, the Basque region. Um, it's usually from like unpasteurized like goat and cow products. Um but it is pretty scary because it can damage your heart valves. Like that's kind of the like the point of like the progression that you definitely don't want to find yourself in. And so yeah, you you usually have to do like a a similar antibiotic protocol for tuberculosis where you do um like IV antibiotics in the hospital or long-term antibiotics. And yeah, it was it was just it was it was a weird one, you know. Like you when you go to a different country, you want to be respectful and like eat the food that's served and like buy what's ever in the market or like just kind of be easygoing. But I had no idea that something like that could be lurking uh in the Basque region for me. So yeah, it took a long time to recover from it. Yeah, it was rough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's great. Well, and the thing is too, is like Basque Region, for people who don't know, has some of the best cuisine in the world. Like it's like some of the best restaurants, some of the best, like just food in general. So that's crazy to hear that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_02:I heard it on another podcast when I was doing research for this, and I was like, oh, I gotta get I gotta hear more on this. This is this is a crazy thing. And especially because there's a lot of athletes that listen to this that do travel internationally for races. And I'm always bringing up the well, you know, it's it's really hard. It's a lot harder than people think to go race internationally just because, you know, dietary issues or dietary changes, sleep, all these different like factors that go into play before a race. And uh yeah, unfortunately, like you were so negatively impacted.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's there, I think there's like around 40 cases in the US a year tops, and it's usually like hunters that are like out in the field like skinning an animal or something like that. Like it's it's so rare that like the State Health Department immediately got involved, like they immediately like took control of like my my treatment and making sure that yeah, it wasn't just somebody like popping around with brucellosis in their mind.
SPEAKER_02:That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, survivor, survivor for sure. I um all right, so I want to shift gears a little bit. I want to ask you this is a this is a deep cut question. In 2017, in that era, in my research, I found that you were, and I I mean I'd also seen in pictures that you used to run for Hoka back in the day. Um, so you went through this phase of professional athlete in your life. Like you could still obviously you compete at the highest level, still you still call yourself a professional athlete. I just want to know, like, what was it like being a pro back in the day? In like I say back in the day, even though it really wasn't that long ago, it was less than a decade ago, but 2017, the sport has changed so much since then. Like, what was that like for you back then being a pro in the sport and like that era?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, so Hoka was actually my fourth like professional contract as a runner. So when I was out of college, I I had a contract and then um with Reebok and then Sokany, and then took like a long break from running. And then um my first contract as a trail runner was with Nike and like kind of that OG group of Nike. That's where I met Chris, um, my husband, and yeah, it was like Zach and Tim Tolovson, Sally McRae, like um, yeah, a great group of us. And then my husband and I changed over to to Hoka. And I would say at that point in time, like professional trail running contracts were like much more limited than they are now. Like there weren't really many people like actually making a living, but the contracts were also like I'm guessing a lot looser than they are now. So um, yeah, it was kind of nice. I feel like you there weren't too many obligations. Um, but definitely having babies was was not a good mix. And so that's like you know, why I stopped running for Hokas. We were getting ready to build our family. But yeah, it was a little bit more like maybe like the Wild West of like early professional running, where you were kind of lucky if a company like threw you some support, but there also weren't like much expectations of like what that should look like. You know, UTMB wasn't what it is now, so it wasn't like, hey, like we need you to show up in Shamini at the end of August and be in one of these races, like and there just weren't a ton of a ton of like championship style races, except for like skyrunning races and then western states. So yeah, it was definitely definitely a very different time. Um and unfortunately for me, like the sub-ultra distance races like weren't really very glamorized, and there really wasn't much in in the way of like sub-ultra races in the US to begin with. Um, so I think that it like really pushed maybe those early athletes like into longer races is like that's the option. Like that's how if you want to be like a trail runner, like you need to do hundred milers. Um, so yeah, I wish there would have been like shorter trail race options during that time because I think coming from like a collegiate running background, that's like such a great stepping stone, you know. Like it's very different to go from like racing 5Ks and 10Ks to like uh trans Vulcania where you're just like out there for hours and like walking, and you know, it's just it's a hard like mental shift, I think, that to not be in these like fast explosive races that are like full of adrenaline. Uh so yeah, I I love seeing the changes the sport's making, and I think it's only gonna get deeper and deeper, like in pulling more like young talent into you know the realm of this sport that's like growing really fast, like racing a vertical K or like you know, golden trail races, skyrunning races.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Wow. I thank you for I appreciate you talking about this because this is this is the stuff I wanted to get out of you is more of the this like pre-time period where because it's interesting from that Nike team, you Tim, Chris, like quite a few of those Nike athletes roll over into the Hoka scene in 2017. What was it like though being on that early Nike team? Like there was all hard hitters, like rock stars, like people that were first belt hall of famers in the sport at this point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was awesome. Um, yeah, I'm so thankful that that was like my entry point into the sport, you know. And our manager, Pat, was like kind of like gave us like free reign of the races that we wanted to run. Um, and you know, we didn't have like the team structure wasn't what it's like now, where people are like going to T team camps, and you know, there's really like so much support. Um it was just like us and Pat, you know, and it was it was cool though, because I think we kind of naturally gravitated towards like the same races and like created that team culture like within what became like a good group of friends, like people that I'm still really close with and my husband's still really close with. Um, and it's cool to think back to like how that Nike Trail team like impacted UTMB and like Americans kind of maybe being open up to like what UTMB is and like CCC and OCC and uh those guys like making such a big splash there. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's crazy. Crazy to think like I mean, and so I mean Billy Yang has made you know some great I mean, his documentaries are just like you know and podcasts, like so, so good. Um, yeah, lots of really good stuff there. Uh what it now, I think was it uh I guess Golden Trail What came around in 2018. So was there just like any and you would kind of alluded to this that it seemed like there was just such a push on the American scene to do ultra? It seems like there still is. Um are you excited now to see there being more of an like it seems like the subultra category or short trail category, whatever people want to call it, has just grown so immensely now with the rise of Broken Arrow, with Golden Trail, and in the United States as well with the Rut and races like that. Um are you excited to kind of see this growing uh aspect of the sport? Because, like you said, it is such an approachable sport for or section of the sport for athletes coming in from you know the collegiate scene.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I'm I'm so excited to see this this shift and this growth. I think one, it's more approachable for just like all runners that are like trail mountain curious. Um, but for that development for like the younger side of the sport or just for people who are like their skill set is, you know, they they're they're they're more talented and they have a skill set that's like better suited to like shorter, faster mountain races. Like I think it's cool that like under this umbrella of trail running, we can have these like one to two hour races that are like so dynamic and like athletic, I guess is what I think about it as like like the mountain biking, like the World Cup mountain biking races of trail running where it's just yeah, it's like can gets competitive, it's fast moving. Like if you make a wrong decision, like that could be your race, you know, versus like a hundred mile race where like things are playing out just like more like a chess match, you know, like where it's like like really methodical. And I I love that side of the sport too. But like I I just yeah, I think of like all the athletes that were like that are like the similar version of myself when I was younger. Like I wish I would have had that because it's it's just I think like as you develop, it's so exciting to like still feel that athleticism and that like urgency within a race, and then to let your body adapt to like the longer races, like when it's more appropriate in your development. Like, I don't think it's healthy that we would ask young athletes to be in the sport and just push them towards like 20-hour races, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's weird, right? Is it a you like is uh in Europe, there's such an emphasis on the short trail. Like, people love short trail in Europe and it's got such a fan base, and like I feel like that's part of my job and and thing, like what I want to do is continue to help grow the fan base in the US and and play a role in that. I just don't know why we put such an emphasis on the longer stuff in in the United States. Like, I I don't get it. Like, sure, we have Western states, and that's cool. And like I I don't know, I just don't know why that we put such an emphasis when it's like such a more approachable aspect of the sport. And we've got like races like Pikes Peak and like historically based races, like Pikes Peak's been around a lot longer than Western states, and yet it just doesn't have quite that admiration from a fan-based perspective that maybe say like Western states does. Like, what why is that?
SPEAKER_00:I I mean I think it's just because we don't have this like deep-rooted like love for the mountains, like as a society, you know, like we don't have this like mountain culture where you know, like you go to the Alps in the summer and the trails are so busy. And it it's nice that here in Colorado we like have our trails to ourselves, but you go there and people are using the trails, like young families are out there, 70, 80-year-olds are out there, like in the mountains. And I think that they're that the the shorter races are an extension of just like that mountain culture of like, oh, we have this mountain, so like we're gonna have a race to run to the top of it or around it, or like this, you know, great circuit, or we're gonna have this trail festival. Like it's it's it's similar, like in schemo in Europe, you know, where it's just like it's kind of part of a way of life, and people grow up either participating in those sports or having an appreciation for people that do that. But here it's like that's so far removed. Like this way of like moving and racing in the mountains is like people see running as like marathons, you know, like road marathons. And and I think that we like to categorize distances for like acceptance, like, oh, I'm a marathoner, or you know, I I do this distance. And then it's like if you don't fit into that category, then it then it's like, well, you need to be a hundred miler, you know, whereas like but why why aren't we elevating that you're really good at running up and down Pike's Peak, you know, like certainly the community in Colorado Springs elevates that. Like I love the just that that community that that the race has supporting that race and that mountain and like how much people love that mountain. I just I I think that's so incredible, but that's really rare, you know. There's not many places like that. Like certainly like Tim Tolofson is creating that mammoth and you know, Mike Foot up, you know, in Montana, but like runners are like, yeah, it's like the collegiate system, it's the track, it's the road. And I think that will change, you know. I think that having people like Lauren Gregory in the sport where uh kids in D1 programs are like, oh, like this is an option for me. Like, I don't like running around in circles, or I don't want to be a marathoner. Like, I could maybe go do this, you know. And I I think that that excitement is gonna like start to stir. And as like media continues to cover that, like someone like yourself, like you know, really shining a spotlight on athletes like that. I think I think the excitement will start to grow and and it'll it'll be something that people can feel like proud to be a mountain athlete and not like, oh, I was too slow to make it on the track, so I'm gonna try to make it as a trail runner.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, no, and that's another thing too, is the there there was for the longest time, and I think you probably saw this more in that in that era of that, I don't know, 14 through 2020, where um before like athletes like Dan Kurtz and Lauren Gregory and Anna Gibson kind of came into the sport, um, people would think that there was this preconceived notion that, oh, if you can't make it on the track, then you you can go make it living in the trails. And yeah, no, I mean now you got I mean, you saw firsthand Christian Allen this past weekend, like as talented as anyone in the sport at this point. So it's really interesting to me to see the sports sort of sort of elevate, and we're getting these like and I hate to compare and be like, oh, well, he's a two-oh, whatever marathoner, right? But you're starting to see the talent level just rise so much in the sport with all the athletes, which is I think it's kind of it's pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree. And I think that runners, like kind of like having come from that system, um the collegiate system is so great. I mean, we're so lucky that we have that here for development in depth, but you have these like great team atmospheres that kind of like create that excitement around like running circles on a track or cross country or road running, but then you graduate and it's like you don't have that team atmosphere, and it's it's kind of like a lonely endeavor unless you're lucky enough to make it onto you know a really good development team. And so I I think that like a lot of a lot of people I know, they came out of college and then they're just like they don't even like running anymore, you know, because it's so different, it's so removed from like that, you know, all that excitement enthusiasm around like the team culture of that. And so I just yeah, I think I think there's gonna be a lot of young athletes that are like, oh, like this is a potential path for me, you know, like this is way better than doing the same road race year after year, trying to like improve a few seconds, like to go to different countries and like test myself up against like this mountain or this climb or like this route, you know. I I think yeah, I I feel really positive about where the sport's heading.
SPEAKER_02:And I think it's that's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah, yeah, that's why I was gonna go to the next question. Like, where where do you want it to go though? Like, do you think this should be an Olympic sport? Do you think worlds is good enough and we can continue to grow? Like, what do you want to see out of it uh in the sport?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not I'm not sold on it becoming an Olympic sport because I as much as it is like a validation I feel torn. I as much as it is like a validation to the sport being like a competitive global sport, I also like fear like what it would get reduced to in an Olympic format, and I think it would be far removed from like the really cool, iconic races and courses that we've been talking about, you know. I just I just don't I guess I'm a little bit jaded because I see what's happening to schemo and I imagine like a similar path where it's like, oh, okay, now so and and nothing against the athletes that are like working really hard to make an Olympic team because I think that's that's incredible. But I think that most people can agree that like the origins of schemo is not racing around a bunch of like flags doing a million transitions, like in this like course that's like a the base of a ski resort, essentially. You know, it's about like going up and down a mountain as fast as you can, or going up and over a mountain and then up and over in a mountain and back. You know, it's like it's it's very like pure mountain sport. And so, you know, I I worry that that would happen to trail and mountain running, that it's like, okay, instead of Mont Blanc being Mont Blanc Marathon or Mont Blanc 90K being something that's like, wow, yeah, that makes sense. Like, what an iconic race. It's like all of a sudden we're just like doing flower formats and putting like fake rocks into the street and barriers and yes, yeah, I don't know. It's like because if it is an Olympic sport, I mean that's the validation that athletes are naturally gonna want is to make an Olympic team within their sport, but like is it gonna take away from like you know, the roots of what trail of mountain running is? I don't know. I think we're better off not.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. I and I look at it from two ways. I think there's there's the component of like, like you said, like with schemo and even climbing too. I mean, I feel like what they did to the climbing was kind of an insult in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, schemo specifically, I felt like it was a and even though like I have friends on the schemo team literally right now actively yeah, like working their butts, butts off to make the Olympics, it's like, man, how much better would it be for like Cam Smith if there was like a vertical option? Totally absolutely would be so much easier. And it's like, why why do we not even have a vertical option for the I don't get that? Um obviously I don't make the decisions, and then the only uh the other option too, or the other thing, caveat, is um, you know, I don't know, like Olympic the Olympic sport itself or sports in the Olympics are still the way that it's classified is it's just so hard for athletes to make money unless you're LeBron James or somebody like that. Like when it comes to the TV deals, like very much so, like athletes are not really making anything. And in a sport that already has like finite economics, where yes, now it's easier to make money, but you're still not making a gratuitous amount of money. You're still not able to like really fund like like most things. Um, you throw the Olympics into it, and yes, there's name, image, and likeness, and you can make money that way, but it's and it will attract sponsors, but like TV rights and the amount of money that's like wrapped up in that, it kind of sucks. Like, I feel like it's almost like borderline there's exploitation there, totally.
SPEAKER_00:I agree, yeah, I agree, and I think it's gonna shrink down the focus with like I mean, trail, mountain, ultra running, like it's it's so vast. Like, we have so many categories within our sport, and I feel like it's gonna like put the spotlight on like one very small area within the sport, whatever format that is that they decide will fit the TV programming. So, is that like an hour race, an hour and a half race that's like kind of flat and fast and like no real vertical, you know, like it'll just and so then what about like the Jim Walmsleys and the Katie Shiats out here that are like coaching UTMB and like I mean, they could probably do well in any format of racing that they were thrown, to be honest. But but you know what I mean? Like, I I feel like it would really shift the focus to one type of trail and mountain runner, which I feel like is kind of a shame to the sport.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and the thing is too, I mean, this is this is almost almost going on a different like tangent, but I view Ultra in a lot of ways as a completely different sport. Because after X amount of mileage, then there's a lot of other things at play. And it like fitness matters, but not to the degree, and it almost like really transforms itself. Whereas like a circle series race, 100% like fitness is probably the most important component. Like, yes, there's a lot of extra aspects that go, like a few extra aspects that go into it, but If you're not fit, you're not gonna do well. And whereas like you can in ultras, it's a completely different sport. Whereas like if you have a lot of other things dialed, the sport almost like corrects for you being able to do well with those, even if you lack a little bit of fitness uh or might not be at the highest of highest of levels. Like you could still perform. Um whereas like I don't know, I I think in with those two different sports, you know, if one becomes an Olympic sport, one doesn't, almost the other gets left behind, and that gets kind of weird. So it's like it's almost like an all or nothing thing. We would have to have like if we want to have equal representation, like it would have to be we gotta have an ultra component, we gotta have a sub-ultra component, and we gotta do something like that. I don't know. What do you think of the new 200 mile races? Like, are you are you into that kind of thing? Do you think that's like a a thing going forward?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I have to admit, I was like a little dismissive at first. And I went out to the first year, uh, the first Coca Dona. I had I had a group of women that were that all racing it. So I was coaching them and I was like, I don't know about this. Like, I think you guys are gonna hate running when you're done. You're it's like I always use the analogy of like you can't eat too much chocolate cake, like you can run too much and not like it anymore. And uh and I went out and like the it was just different, and I and I I loved like the community and culture that the the race had created around the runners, you know, like and I was like, why why not? Like, why not people decide that they want to go from this point to this point or around Lake Tahoe? And who cares if they're not really actually running most of it, if they're walking most of it? Like, I think that's that's really cool that somebody wants to take on that challenge for themselves. But now people are actually racing it, you know, like they're actually running and pushing hard and racing it, and I think it's it's curious, like kind of learning to unlock like or relearn what is like possible within the sport. Like we thought, like, oh, you can only race a hundred miles, but now now people are doing it for twice that distance. And I don't know that it would be my cup of tea, but like I definitely have like an a curiosity and an appreciation for what's being done in that realm of the sport.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, yeah.
unknown:Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:No, I was just gonna say if I for if I've learned anything about the 200 mile, it is nothing to do with the 200 mile, it is everything to do with the fact that whatever kind of like zeitgeist slash like audience capture that they've like figured out where it's like this cult cult like following, yeah, where people like will sit all day and just like watch it on their live stream. I'm like, dude, there's there's something to be learned here that we can apply to short trail, um, like some sort of audience capture because whatever they're figuring out, like we we gotta do the same thing, and and that's how we continue to grow our end of the sport. Um, because yeah, whatever they've kind of figured out already, like with Coca-Dona, I think Coca-Dona is a great example with the live stream. It's like people live and die by the live stream, and there's like stars are are born. Like, look at Rachel Entriken, who's now a household name just from you know, just having a really amazing 2025 season, and hopefully it pays off immensely for her. But those are the types of stories I think and and things we need to capture for our side of the sport that I I think Golden Trail does a really good uh job of, but it's more Euro and not quite American. It's just a little different. We need to figure it out on the American side how we can tell those stories.
SPEAKER_00:I agree, yeah, I agree. Well, I I feel like you need to have Jamil on the podcast at some point in time and see because I feel like he's always like 10 steps ahead of like whatever we're seeing or the changes that are being made. Like you mentioned the Coca-Dona like live stream, like is brilliant. I can't believe that many people are sitting around watching people like munch on a burrito at an aid station and then walk out, but it's like it's pretty must see TV now. Yeah, and I have I still have like a good amount of friends that are you know road racing and you know, like were you know, racing New York last weekend, and I I I watch it and I'm like honestly, I'm like this is kind it's kind of boring. Like you have these fast, insanely fast and fit people, but the coverage to me is like it's just it's just the same that it was before. There's no context, there's no like you don't really know much about the athletes you're watching. Um it's just kind of flat. And then like I watch something like the Kokodona live stream, and I'm like, this is it's it's kind of silly, but it's also really amazing. And so uh yeah, I agree with you that like if we could start bringing that X factor into like the shorter races here in the US, it'd be really amazing. And uh I mean Broken Arrow seems like there's certainly I I was like I had never been to Broken Arrow and I was like really blown away by that race organization and and race coverage and everything that they're doing out there, and so I feel like other races will start to follow suit. It will just be the new norm, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, I think it has to. I mean, and we've had years in the past where like for instance, like this year we had a p we were trying to do something with the rut, um, more of like a like a live podcast kind of thing, and they didn't have a live stream this year. And I was like, damn, what a missed opportunity. Like they should like they uh because their VKs are amazing to watch, it's so much fun. I mean, especially in the last few years, people get in the top and there's snow and people are freezing, and it's like just a crazy thing. And broken arrow is great too. That mass start at the like on that ski hill is just pure chaos, and it's so much fun to follow. Um, and this year it was great too. Like Broken Arrow did a good job. But I think just like even for like the 28Ks and or the 23Ks, 28 K's, 50 K's, I think it all benefits so well from uh, you know, and then have also having like I don't know, I think we need to do a better job with the commentators where the commentators generally are pretty good, but it needs to be someone that knows the sport intimate. Yeah, and I think we've we've we need to work on that where it can't just be any any person that just like uh off the street or any person that's just a casual, like it needs to be someone that's either a professional athlete that's not racing and happens to have a really good personality and can convey some of these storylines and talk about it, um, or someone that really knows their stuff. So I'm hoping that that improves too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree. And I I I don't know. Did you watch any of the the Kodiak live coverage by any chance?
SPEAKER_02:I I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, well, they uh Danny Marino was one of the the hosts on there, and I was like, oh my gosh, Danny is like she's awesome. This is perfect because she knows all the nuances of especially like the the sub-ultra distances, and like she's still competing, and so there's just so much to the sport that she understands, and like it was like really incredible. Like, I learned a lot listening to Danny, you know, commentate their races, and uh I I feel like yeah, adding putting more Danny's behind the microphone would would be great that it was like not only like a gifted runner and understands you know the the the players in the sport, but also just yeah, those like little details of like what it's like to be out there like battling it out. Um yeah, it'd be really cool.
SPEAKER_02:100%. Like I I had Danny and MK. We did um the Son of P uh live stream, and it was so much fun. Um and it was it was atrocious because like the video kept failing and we would lose coverage of this person and that person, and we really had to like make things up as we went, like talking about the athletes and talking about this, that, and the other. And yeah, Danny, Danny and MK are absolutely incredible. Like they're but that that's what we're talking about. Like that's those are the types of athletes that need to be doing those things. And yeah, I don't know. It's gonna be interesting, especially because this year is an off-year with worlds, and we'll have the US Mountain Running Championship somewhere, maybe in the Northeast or the Mountain West or God knows where. We'll have to uh hopefully they they do it right this year and and it continues to be a big draw and we can get like a live stream, and it's like hopefully must see TV.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, well, you're doing good, you're doing good work. You're doing your part and like creating some excitement and like really pushing this side of the sport forward in the US. So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Well, we're at about an hour five now or hour six. Um is there anything else you wanted to get to that maybe we didn't we didn't tackle or you feel pretty good about it?
SPEAKER_00:I know, no, no. It's just been yeah, been a pleasure to uh talk shop with you and geek out a little bit on some of these things.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate it. We'll have to do this again. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it and uh looking forward to the next conversation. And hopefully, hopefully we'll get to meet at a race this year. I was hoping to meet you at Pikes this year, but uh I wasn't there scheduling conflict-wise.
SPEAKER_00:So I feel like, yeah, that's a hard finish line to meet people too, because I feel like everybody just wants to get like off the mountain, you know, like you're so woozy from the altitude that it's like, yeah, let's get out of here. Um, but yes, we'd love to love to come down to the springs and get some dry running in this winter. So we'll have to connect.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Let me know. Let me know. I definitely appreciate it. And uh well, thanks again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sounds good. Have a good rest of your day.
SPEAKER_02:You too.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Guys, what'd you think? I hope you enjoyed the episode. I know I did. This was a great conversation, and I want to really want to thank Alicia for coming on for a conversation. I mean, just uh uh amazing human and uh just really appreciative of her time. It's also fun riffing on the sport. Like I love to hear uh what people think of the sport, especially those that have been in the sport for like the last decade plus and where they want to see things go and how they feel about it. So all good stuff there. Guys, the best way you could support her is to give her a follow on Instagram. That's gonna be at Alicia Vargo. One word Alicia Vargo. And uh yeah, send her a message, let her know what you guys thought about the episode. I'm sure she'd love to hear from all of you. Um, yeah, all good stuff there. Uh guys, if you have been enjoying the podcast, if you've been enjoying the changes and some of the things that we've been uh making, doing over the better part of the last week to two weeks, um, yeah, give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. One thing right now I'm trying to do is really build that YouTube subscribership, and uh that's where you're gonna be able to watch all of our episodes in uh 4K video. So you can hop on over to the Steep Stuff podcast on YouTube, give us a subscription, give us a follow, and um yeah, that way you can watch the episodes live. Uh and I try to air them a little bit before the pod actually comes out. I try to do the YouTube stuff first. So it's a good way to get some of the episodes beforehand. Um and yeah, like I said, five-star rating and review review on Apple Spotify YouTube. That's how we can continue to uh get some discoverability and share and tell these stories of these amazing athletes. Um, yeah, one other way you could support us is supporting our brand partner, Ultimate Direction. Guys, check out ultimatedirection.com. It is the holiday season now. There's a lot of good stuff on UD's website. The stuff I prefer and the stuff I really enjoy, in my opinion, um, I have absolutely loved the nude vest drops. They're completely different than anything Ultimate Direction's done in the past, and I think you'll enjoy them. Uh, lots of stretchy, more dynamic material, less chafe, um, more just, you know, like comfortable materials, light and airy and breathable. I really like the ultra vest. Uh, if you're looking for more storage, that thing's a 12 liter. It's kind of a beast. It's big, um, but not quite as big as maybe some of the fast packs and stuff like that. And then the race vest is dope as well. Can't go wrong with the race vest. That's another one that comes in six liter, so it's a bit smaller. And I think they just have absolutely like the design design team and testing team absolutely nailed this one. Um, if you're interested in a new vest or if you want to buy a vest for a loved one, definitely check them out. I think they're pretty affordably priced. And if you're looking for a discount, like I said, use code Steep StuffPod. That's one word, Steep Stuff Pod, and it's gonna get you 25% off. Um, if you want to increase your uh your situation as well, if you're not just looking for a vest, you're looking for some other bells and whistles, uh, check out the new pole quiver. There's an adaptable pole quiver that they just designed that came out um towards the end of the summer, which is I think is pretty exciting as well. Super adaptable, good stuff. You can also fit in on Solomon vests, and so it's a great one as well. Um and yeah, good belt assortment, some other stuff there, but I definitely gotta say the pack situation over the better part of the last year has gotten legit, um, competing with the some of the best packs in the world. So check out ultimator.com and like I said, use code Steep StuffPod. Guys, I got one more episode dropping for you this week. It's gonna be with Chad Hall, the uh the mythical man himself, Mr. Chad Hall. Um, I'm really excited for that episode. You guys are gonna get a kick out of that one. So that'll be dropping on Friday this week. So thanks for tuning in. Appreciate you all. Much love, James.
