#144 - McKennon Woltman

What happens when a Texas kid with marathon roots drops 60 pounds, moves across continents to mentor young athletes in Kenya, and then turns that purpose into a season-long charge through the Cirque Series? We unpack the full story with McKennon Woltman—complete with chai-fueled mornings, singletrack at altitude, and the lessons that only service and steep terrain can teach.

We start with a family tradition of marathoning and the health scare that pushed him to act. That path led to Germany, then into the heart of Kenya’s running culture, where daily life is simple, meals are consistent, and training is built on red roads and forest trails around Iten and Kaptegat. McKennan opens up about the ethics of sport—doping access, predatory management, and the realities of poverty—then explains how holistic mentorship (mind, body, spirit) helps athletes chase big dreams without losing themselves. The result is a rare, grounded view of what high performance looks like when anchored in integrity.

Then we head stateside, where he maps that foundation onto the Cirque Series: short, steep, technical races that demand weekly readiness and tactical restraint. He breaks down how he learned to race smart—saving legs for the downhill, choosing the right shoes for mixed terrain, and making decisive moves at Targhee’s off-trail descents. We also talk culture: why short mountain races are a perfect development path, and how American trail running can build a louder fan experience with lift-access cheering zones, cowbells on ridgelines, and community stoke that rivals Europe.

Looking ahead, McKennan shares plans to focus on sub-ultra events in the UTMB ecosystem, race Broken Arrow, and sharpen road speed with a spring marathon as a step toward the 2028 U.S. Olympic Trials standard. If you care about mountain running, athlete development, or simply want to feel the energy of someone who races hard and gives more back, this one hits home.

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Follow McKennon on IG - @mckennonwoltman

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Meet McKennan
• 2:10 Family, Marathon Roots, And A Wake-Up Call
• 10:50 Choosing Service: Germany Connection To Kenya
• 16:01 Inside Kenya’s Training Culture And Ethics
• 24:45 Daily Life In Kenya: Food, Travel, Reality
• 33:15 What Kenya Taught About Consistency
• 38:55 Identity, Impact, And Perspective Shift
• 1:02:15 Enter The Cirque Series: Why This Circuit
• 1:09:00 Learning To Race Smart: East Coast Lessons
• 1:19:05 Favorite Course: Targhee Tactics And Grit
• 1:29:20 Building Fan Culture And Community Stoke
• 1:36:40 What’s Next: Sub-Ultra, UTMB, And A Marathon
• 1:40:25 Closing Gratitude And Ways To Support

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome McKennan Waltman to the show. McKennan is the 2025 Cirque Series overall champion. I was super excited to catch up with him and chat all about his background. McKinnon is a very interesting character, and the way he got into the sport was interesting as well. We talked a lot about his background, including multiple years spent living in Kenya. We talked about how he got into the sport, his background overall, his time in San Francisco, and then of course the Cirque series, which was super fun. We talked about his favorite races, we talked about just different levels of competition, what he plans to do in 2026, and so much more. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. I'm a big fan of McKinnon's. He's got an amazing story. So without further ado, McKinnon Waltman. All right, McKinnon Waltman. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_02: 2:02

It's going awesome, man. Thanks for having me on here, James.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05

Yeah, I'm excited, dude. I uh I'm excited to have this conversation. You and I have got to interact at a I wish we would have interacted a heck of a lot more over the summer, although I spent my summer injured. Uh if you're going back to the Cirque series next year, we'll have we'll have we'll spend plenty of time together. Um but dude, Cirque Series 2025 champion, um, there's a lot more to the story than than just that. And I'm excited to have you on to uh to tell your story and have a conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 2:30

Sweet. I am like so stoked to just like even talk about it, deep dive, and just uh I don't know, tell everybody how it went.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:40

And even the thought process going into it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:42

Before we uh before we get started, maybe tell the audience like where you like where you just came back from, what you've been up to over the last month or so.

SPEAKER_02: 2:50

Okay, so my name's Ken Fred Woltman. Um I just got done with TRE with CETAs, so got to go and work with them at their booth down in San Antonio, and then this weekend, right after that, hopped on a plane, went out to Phoenix, Arizona to go shoot the mountain uh Mount Mount McDowell, uh Mountain Frenzy for Air Vipa, and then flew back into San Antonio this morning, picked up the van, drove it straight up to San Antonio or from San Antonio to Dallas, and now I'm at home base where I grew up at pretty much.

SPEAKER_01: 3:26

Is is home base for you Texas or is it California? Texas, technically. It is technically Texas, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 3:33

Yeah. So until I was like 18 years old, I was in Texas, and then the moment I got out of the house graduating, I was out the door and working all over the place in construction and stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 3:47

So oh, dude, talk about this. So did you like what's your background in sport? Like, how did you discover running?

SPEAKER_02: 3:54

Okay, so as a kid growing up, my dad did marathons and stuff, him and his brother and his sister did. So they would always travel uh since 2005, go out to Bixer International Marathon in California. My uncle, he's a firefighter out there, and so that's like that was the point uh spot to go to. And that was like when Bixer was actually a first come, first serve. So they'd always plan ahead, like going, okay, let's jump into this marathon so we could all run together. So that started in 2005, and then growing up, just kind of being around that and seeing him run and stuff, it was like, okay, at some point I'm gonna pick this up. Ran out like our local like 5K turkey trots and different like uh October festivals and stuff. And then in high school, I did two years of cross country for fun. Um, my friends were in it, and I was like, you know what, we're just gonna go out there, have some fun with it. So my sophomore and junior year did that, got back out of it. I was like, ah, that was cool, but I'm like, I don't, I'm gonna focus on golf uh my senior year and see if that can put me into any school opportunity. That never came true. Um, I was not the most focused on my schooling, so it was more like I just love just being outside and doing stuff. Um graduated high school. I mean, I ran every once in a while. It was like, you know, every couple of times a week I'd run, but nothing serious. Had four or five years of traveling around the U.S., working construction from Salt Lake City, Utah, and and in Du Bois, Pennsylvania. Amazing grounds for running, like right off the Appalachian on one side, and then in the on Utah, I was just right there, and like I would say, like the a base, you know, a really good trail running, base area, and road running. But I wasn't really that like well-depthed into it. I stepped on the scale in 2018, was like 210 pounds.

SPEAKER_00: 6:01

Holy shit, you're a big dude.

SPEAKER_02: 6:03

Like, dude, I need to change something here. And at that same time, my grandfather was diagnosed with a um dementia and was like kind of on the downslope of it really quickly. And then my dad was um getting some testing done for life insurance, and they discovered like a rare kidney cancer, and so it was like all this hit me right on one time, and I was like, okay, we gotta do something here, like health-wise. Like, there's a lot of things like not in your favor, and a lot of things that like in order for you to have like your dad go and see you run a marathon, that's like what I wanted to do. I was like, you gotta jump on the ball now. So October of 2018 came around, and that was like two months after, or a month after my dad was like diagnosed. I was like, okay, we gotta find a marathon. So I had some friends growing up, they all always uh make a travel out with their dad to marathon, Texas, and there's a race out there called M to M. And so it's marathon to marathon, and it starts 26.2 miles outside of the town of Marathon and runs all the way in. It's near Big Bend National Park, but it's a small little like West Texas race. I mean, less than 500 people show up to it every year, and that's like within the marathon, half marathon 10K and 5K. So with all those put together, like it may add up to 500, it may be less. It just kind of hit and miss from that point on all the way till May of 2019. I did five marathons and three ultras. So I was like, we're gonna dive straight into the running, figure out this whole thing, and see where if where I can stick and see what happens. And yeah, and like from that moment on, I was like hooked into the sport. I dropped 60 pounds. And it was, and I was like, okay, we're actually able to run fast, not have the weight on the knees, and give myself actually the ability to run the way I want to, and the way I could like remember from like high school. Just didn't put as much training when I was in high school. Um, that I probably should have, because I'm like, look that it looked back now and I'm like, man, if I would have just done this like years ago and put some training and put some effort to it, and somebody like would have pointed me in the right direction, they'd be like, Oh yeah, you have a great opportunity ahead of you. Just dedicate some time and focus. Well, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 8:50

Continue, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 8:52

Yeah, and then um so in May of 2019, I kind of at the same time, I was working for my dad's company in construction. Um, and it was one of those things where I was like, okay, everybody here knows what's happening in the family, and it's a family-based like construction company. It's a big company, but it's like I grew up in the realm. I from the age, yeah, before I was born, my dad started for the company. So my entire life, that was it. Like, we just everybody was like family, and it got to the point where everybody just kind of don't ask me questions, you know, how's your dad? How's everything going? You know, type of thing. And I was just like, there was no space to walk, like step back and to breathe. And also at the same time, move back into the house to be able to help around. So it was like I was just conglomerate from every space, every everywhere, um, of what was happening. So we had a neighbor of ours um that used to have a um missionary cafe in Germany. And they were like, hey, we have a mutual friend from back in the day that we used to live over in Germany that's over here for sports ministry fundraising. And they were like, we need to connect you with them. Their name is Oliver and Kirsten, and you're you're running like crazy. They have the sports ministry going on, and we need to connect you. And we know that you kind of want to get out of the construction side. Um, you grew up like my past was like, I wanted to become a youth minister at some point, or be somehow connected into something with developing and bringing up young athletes, or not athletes, uh young, just young people in a healthy environment in a healthy way. And there with this sports opportunity, I was like, that's it. Maybe with this running background that I've just kind of slowly developed just now, but also have the ability to connect to young people, maybe there's a route for this. And so got connected with Oliver and Kirsten, was driving across the bridge one night after I met with them, and it was kind of in my head, I was like, okay, do I want to take this opportunity or do I not want to take this opportunity? Like, is this exactly the path that's ahead of me, the one I need to take, the steps on. At that moment, I was like, you know what, we're gonna find this out now. We're gonna call Oliver. It's nine o'clock at night, but you just got you're driving home from night school, and they're like, we're just tired of this stuff. And called Oliver, didn't know if he was gonna wake up and like answer it. And luckily it was NBA uh or uh finals, so he was wide awake watching the games, and he was like, Hey, what's up? Why are you what were you calling about? And I was like, I really want to take this opportunity to see if this is where I need to go. Um, getting into the sports side of of ministry, but also having a chance to go internationally and see what opportunities I could have in front. He was like, Oh, okay, it's just like this is real. And I'm like, yes, this is 100% like this is what I want to do. This is the opportunity that I want to take. And like two weeks after that, I booked a plane ticket for August of 2019. Called him up again. Like, we already had some conversation, we already had some like more meetings on this stuff, but I was like, I bought a plane ticket, I'm coming over to do an internship with y'all, and I'm gonna be running over there too. He was like, Whoa, okay, when is your ticket? When is like when are you landing and stuff? I was like, it's gonna be in mid-August, and I'll be there for three months. And he was like, Okay, so let's get everything put together because this is like July at this moment to do all the planning. So really end of June, but going into July. So about a month and a half of planning to dial everything down with the ministry group called SRS, and they work with a lot of different athletes and mentoring and coaching and stuff over in Europe, but also across the world. And getting over there, there was a lot of people that were like, hey, we have this big conference going on. There's a guy named Bern Brettmeier that you're gonna need to meet. He used to be an international athlete, used to actually run from the national team of Germany. You're a runner, he's a runner, y'all just gotta sit down and talk. I was like, okay, cool. Whoever this guy is, I'm like, it's gonna be exciting to meet with him. And that was once I got over to Germany. Had no idea his background, where he was at, what he was doing, his like big, I guess, plans that he was working on. And one of them is actually a training center in Kenya. So I've like, in a way, like came into the sport a whole different, I get a whole different way of approaching it and getting involved. And I mean, doing it, I would say like differently than most athletes, where they get in, they know where they want to go, like of the competition side, and get involved that way. And I've kind of like jumped in a different platform. Um, so got to sit down with Bern, and he was like, Hey, I have this training center down in Kenya, it's called Complete Sports Training Center, and we help young athletes develop after they get out of high school for opportunities on scholarship and uh professional level. At the same time, one of the alumni athletes, um, and or actually um Noah Kimboy, or Noah um oh why I just go Blake. Um Noah Kip Kimboy is uh you have to I'll I may have to recheck that just to make sure. Um, but it's Noah. He is actually one of the pacers for Ellie Kapchoge's two-hour breaking for the Ineos challenge at the same time. So it's like we're meeting, meeting with Byr, talking with him, and here's this opportunity to like be a part of something like super special and super unique and different. And at the same time, it's like there's athletes coming from this that are on a whole other platform of running than like ever I ever even thought I would have like dream of experience or seeing or even getting like around so 2019. I left Germany, had this opportunity to go to Kenya for 2020, booked the ticket immediately, left in January for Kenya and go work at the training center. With the construction background, too, as a part of the puzzle piece for this, they were also wanting to build a new facility. Because the old facility was underneath a 10-year contract with a church organization there that was used for their summer seminars. And so we would just like basically make it our home base, except for two weeks out of the year. And then they would all then all the athletes would go home and then come back afterwards. Um, and they've been doing that since 2011, all the way up to 2000 or 2020. So the next plan was to get a piece of a plot of land, start building a training center for them, and go with it from that level into that next, I guess going to the next extreme of having a training center that also has a hotel for international athletes. So I get over there 2020, and it was more of a let's go get my feet wet in the soil and go see if I can stick, and also see if this is where I want to be and where I need to be too. So I was over there for almost two months of time, and it just felt like oh like they were everybody there that was a part of it, athletes, coaches, mentors, everybody was like, You're more Kenyan than the Kenyans. Yeah, they gave me the name Kip Chamba Kip Chai. Okay. So Kip Chumba is a born inside either has two different uh meanings, either born inside a hospital or born in the presence of a white man. That's how like that's gonna make it, yeah, never mind. So back in the day, that's how like, but that's how like they would like, you know, that's how you get your names is by whether it was season, what the day was like, where you're at, what what was being done, who came in present. So they were like, okay, you're you're a Mazungu, a white man, you're gonna be having the name Kip Chumba. And I was like, okay, we gotta find another name besides just Kip Chumba. And uh we're sitting around the fire one day, and they were like, I just kept on drinking chai tea like crazy. So I was like, you know, what about kip chai? You know, like everybody's called Kip inside the call engine tribe, but like what about kip chai? And they're like busted out laughing, like thought it was a joke, and I'm like, no, I'm serious, like I want to be one who loves tea. Oh yeah, so that was kind of like got me all the way to I would say Kenya, and then COVID happened, and so that was like a stop to everything. Um, but like literally figured out this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do. I want to work with young athletes here in Kenya, develop, coach, mentor, and getting to work on a holistic level, because that's like our whole basis at the training center, is not just a let's work with you, find management, send you all your way. It's a no, we're gonna do the whole body of the athlete. So the mind, the spirit, and the like the relationships that they have with coaches and mentors, slash management, how to mentor them through that process. With the body is how they treat themselves, how they develop themselves as an athlete. The biggest topic in the world right now is the doping, and it's been the doping side for Kenyan athletes and international athletes for a long time. And so our thing is, how do we get athletes out of that realm to be able to have that spotlight? Because that's the hard thing, is a lot of them don't have that mentorship or that availability to have somebody above them going, hey, there's other ways to be able to be a top-level athlete. And you don't have to do these crazy extremes to do it. You know, it's to get away from either doping or getting away from some type of cheating into the into it. So that's like our one of our big things is talking to the athletes, working with them, because they're young. I mean, they're 18, 19, 20 years old. So they're gonna do anything they can to be able to be like the Elliot or be like the the faith and stuff of the sport and track and a marathon. So to try to push them away from that. And then on the spiritual side, um, spirituality is a huge thing in Kenyan culture, it's a huge thing in East African culture, and that's like our big thing that we want to like also help with is that even when you're going into the sport, that you don't lose your traditions, your background, your identity um from where you are, and you don't lose that. Um and that you don't walk away from it and going, oh yeah, I was raised this way, but it got me to this point, and now I'm just gonna take the money from whatever management, and that's who I'm gonna worship next, or that's who I'm gonna go with. It's like, no, that's not that's that helps sustain you in life, but that's not life. You know, that's not what's gonna take you to your next step. Um, and then there's gonna be also, you know, helping them how to how to approach management and and how to be interacted with them. Um because there's a lot of people who look at it as I can go there, almost throw out money, I can have a lot of runners and race for me, and they're gonna get treated in a very poor condition way because it's cheap conditions over there, cheap living conditions. So they'll just toss them a couple hundred bucks and basically go, hey, this is your money for the year, but I want you to perform at this top level, and then once you win, I'm taking 80% of the pay cut.

SPEAKER_01: 22:31

Sorry, I was just gonna say that is a I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, I wasn't planning on going here in this conversation, but I think the Kenya topic is an interesting one, man. And the fact that you've been over there and spent time with these athletes and understand the economic situation, I think it it's really important that you continue to like kind of paint that picture and talk about this to the audience. Because, you know, like in for instance, like Golden Trail and things like that, yes, we've had you know doping violations. I, for one, 100% have no respect for you know when it comes to doping, obviously, but at the same time, I think people fail to understand the level of abject poverty these folks come from, and that doping on their end is uh it's just a very nuanced argument, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 23:16

Yeah, and it's kind of crazy because like you can literally walk into a doctor's or not really doctor, but like a um a vitamin shop or somewhere that you get your medicine from. You can walk in there off the streets and get whatever you need. Or you can have some certain people, you know, in the background that will get you this stuff. So it's kind of crazy on the athletic side that it's that easy, that it's that like so accessible, which is a sad thing too, because it's like, okay, these are young athletes. You're in an area between Eton, Captegat, where we're based at, and Elder. There's probably 8,000 athletes. Wow. Honestly, I mean, Eton is the I would say probably has the biggest number of top level athletes. Most of us, you're never gonna see them, you're probably only see one percent of what's out there, but they're almost on the same level. It's just who's gotten who's gotten the the the right connection at the right time, right spotlight, all that stuff. Um, so seeing Kenya and and getting to be involved in that side of the athletics and training over there was like absolutely incredible. And something that has stuck with me forever. The funny thing is, I've also trained over there for a number of years now, working at the center and coming over here to the States, not racing. So having all the training level, the the right coaching and and just everything that an ideal athlete would ask for on the international level of getting to go train in Kenya and then coming back just to compete at a race, but not taking that chance. And so from 2020 to 2023, I was off and on in Kenya and then also in Germany. I took a so in 2021, that was my third, third trip over to Kenya. And kind of at the same time, I haven't raced since 20 or I guess 2019 really, on a marathon level. Um I haven't tried to go back into it. I've just been working on the mentoring, on the coaching side of Kenya, and that's where my head was kind of focused on. So I've kind of like stepped away from the racing aspect, and because I never really thought I was like, okay, maybe I could perform at good levels, but I'm like, I don't like, I don't know if I like see that as the eye candy for me. And I don't know which area that's gonna be. Is it gonna be in trail or is it gonna be on road? Is it gonna be track or whatever? So it was like a lot of like, I don't want to jump into it necessarily, I'd rather be helping people. So in 2021, um kind of jump a little bit forward. I was over there for another two months period of time, and at the same time, I had already my long-term visa approved for Kenya to be able to move over there, train, coach, everything. At the same time, my got a or I got a phone call from my family saying, Hey, you better get home soon. Your dad's like on last, like, last line right now. And so it was like, it was a crazy moment because he also told me he was like, before I left, and few people know this, but before I left, he was like, Whatever happens on this next trip, because I've been going back and over, back and forth, and now that I've gotten the visa approved, he was like, Whatever happens, don't come back home. Stick with what you're doing, coaching and the mentoring, like that's a huge side of it for you. And that scared me because I was like, there's no way, like, how could I do that? You know, like not come back home for everything that if something was to go, worst case scenario type of thing. And when worst case scenario came up, literally hopped on a plane, and I was like, that's where I gotta be. I gotta be home with family, not sure for how long, but I at least need to get back to the States. And during that same time, or after that all happened, went down, it was like five days we were together as a family, and it was just incredible. We had family friends from all over the US come over and stay with us and just be able to be together. And after that all kind of went down, I was just like, do I go back to Kenya now or do I go figure out what's next? I decided to take a little break of time, move to Colorado, actually where I was born. I was born in uh Denver, but grew up or like first six months of my life was Denver or Evergreen, Colorado. And I call Evergreen as like its home to me too, because that's where my aunt uncle lived, and that's where we'd always go do vacations and trips too. So I went up there, started running on Elk Meadows Um Trail, which is the little park right across the street from where my aunt uncle lived, and would train out there on the trail, and I was like, man, I kind of like this. This is kind of fun. At the same time, had Strava, started looking up who was running out there on the Strava map, and I was like, Man, who are these guys? David Roche and stuff. And like, these are, I mean, I I know there's some big names, but I'm like, to me, I didn't know much about them and stuff, so I started looking them up and I'm like, oh, there's this whole like troll running thing, like it's a legit deal. And there's like legit athletes, and looking into it, I was like, man, I gotta check this out. I didn't know if I was gonna jump into it fully then or not, and I I just trained on it, I didn't jump into it, didn't erase at the time. And 2021 still coming through, got done with my like time off from Kenya and everything else I was doing. And the end of 2021 came around, I was like, okay, we're gonna go back to Kenya. We got to have a little break of time to kind of just debrief and got to raise a lot of shoes that I would take over to Kenya, and a lot of shoes I asked for actually, because I started realizing was like troll running shoes. Because the we have a lot of dirt roads and red road or red dirt roads and stuff, and it gets muddy and stuff, so it's like really hard to run on road shoes. I was like, so my big thing was like, let's go ask for a lot of troll shoes. So I started getting involved with some troll running groups and communities and stuff through that. Um went back over. 2021 swung around, 2022 came around, still over there. In the summer of 2022, I had we had a group come over, and they were doing a um documentary over one of our athletes, and they were really cool. I was also in the video stuff and the photography, but I was just like basic level in my like what I thought. And I just played around with the camera, played around with the drone out there in Kenya and stuff, and we had documentary crew come over and they didn't have a drone, and so I flew that for them. Afterwards, we got to talk, and they were like, hey, you're really good at this stuff with your photography and with your video stuff. Would you want to move to Germany? I was like, huh, yeah, that'd be that'd be pretty cool. It was kind of a hard decision because I was like, you know, should I be here fully in Kenya? And I've like it was a lot of tough decisions, but it was also how do I be able to get more people to know about what we're trying to do here? Because I mean, social media can get you so far, but actually having true personal connection is another thing, and I feel like that's actually real and honest of where it can go. And moved over to Germany, got over there, started trying to work doing as a freelance sound engineer for the for a guy who works with the news station that kind of fell through, but at the same time, I got involved with the Adidas Runners Munich team and fully just ingrained with that community. And I was over there for six months of time and just dove straight in. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, I don't have a job right now, and I'm just gonna risk it, and we're just gonna. I love this running with the with the Adidas runners uh group, and let's see what kind of happens here. Let's continue kind of just developing as an athlete on a different level. They've really shown me troll running and got to really take a deep dive into the troll running space. Because like every Wednesday night we'd meet as a team or as a group, um, and we'd go do run trails, and then on the weekends there'd be a big group of us that would go and hit trails up in the Alps, and then like every day at the same time, um, every day there um I would almost hop on the train and go run in the Alps. I was like, what's the perfect time while I'm over here?

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

Pretty legit.

SPEAKER_02: 33:02

I'm gonna while this like work thing I'm trying to figure out is you know, paperwork and all that type of stuff is going through. I was I was kind of also, you know, let's take advantage of where we're at. So I was just running the Alps and I would ride a train down, get off, run up and over a mountain, and then hop on the next train to go back to Munich. So like I would do this like every other day or so, uh, and figure out, you know, kind of, you know, is this where I want to do, and play and I would also take the camera out with me and just play around and up in the mountains. Um, and then they would talk a lot about infinite trails, which is the big Terex troll event at the end of the seasons, the community event where all the different uh Adidas runners communities kind of come together from the troll side and put on this big racement event. And I ran at it and they were like, Hey, we probably think that you could probably do really good at this, and we're gonna put you on a team of three of us, or there's gonna be a group of y'all on a team, so you're gonna take the marathon section, so it's like 20. It was actually like or it's 47 kilometers, so it's a little bit more than a marathon. I was like, Oh, yeah, let's let's go play, let's go have fun and do this as a team. I absolutely sucked. Like, I was good, but like it was like the day was not my day, it was just like I put on a lot of mileage a couple weeks or like that week before going into it, playing up in the mountains, and so I did not give myself like any break. Um but I got to realize like what trail running was and got to experience it for like a couple months and to see like, oh, this is eye-opening, this is incredible, the space is huge, and the opportunity here is insane. Like the spotlight, the are and and the travel of it, like the uniqueness of trail running compared to the road running side, because like in road running, when you look at the marathon and and and everything, it's only two races a year, yeah. You know, unless like unless you're like going into the hundred mile realm, yeah, it's maybe two races a year type of thing. But like for road running, I always thought, okay, one to two races a year, that's it. Troll runners, like it's every other like week, it seems like. So getting to see that experience, I was like, oh man, there's so much more opportunity with this, and to like get out there and experience it. I still didn't jump all the way in for the racing side as competitive, but I at least got some experience, and I got to do a deep dive and to understand it and build some awesome, incredible relationships that like I hold dearly, and seeing where everybody else is at, you know, in the trell space over there, some of them are just rocking right now, and they're doing really good. But it was kind of cool to be together three years ago and trying to all of us trying to figure out you know, where are we gonna go in this? Um then so 2022 came back to the states, and and then I was like, you know what, we're gonna go back to Kenya. I was like, I'll just go back to the case.

SPEAKER_01: 36:31

I want to I don't want to interrupt you, but I do can you paint the picture? I guess I it's just very interesting. It's interesting to me, and I think the American the the audience in general. What is it like living in Kenya, dude? And especially for as long as you did. Like you're you I mean, I think in America, most of us grow up with a lot of uh privileges like running water, electricity, all the you know, you there's we got McDonald's down the street in an outburger, we've got the good stuff. Like, what is it like growing up? What is it like living there? And all of those amenities are a lot of them you don't have. It's a completely different lifestyle, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02: 37:06

Yeah, from like because from from 2020 to 2023, I spent over a year and a half time of living in Kenya. Um and like so our first facility, literally the house that I stayed in was just a cinder block house, not even a house, really, but it was just a cinder block, like like an old campground, cinder block little like building where on one side you had a little tiny bathroom that had a shower and stuff that the water was actually pumped up from the river into a water tank. So it wasn't safe to drink at all. You could just bathe in it, but you couldn't drink one time, you know, like the normal wash out the mouth type of thing. I was like standing there washing it out, and I'm like, crap, I'm gonna get sick. Had like tiaria for like a week after that, just completely just bedrested. Thought like my life was done, I was just gonna die here, type of thing. And um, but like, yeah, having the living conditions um on our first facility was kind of the extreme, I would say. Like most of our buildings were tin roof, uh 10 10 building. One of them was actually a solid concrete structure um that was the guy's housing, and then the girls' housing was a wood timber um like structure. So it was like it was a house, technically, in a way, but it wasn't like anything luxury, like not luxury at all, because it was like 20 girls piled into like three little spaces, and we're it was one of those things we were just we were growing at such a massive rate because from 2011 to 2016, we only had 16 athletes that we dealt with after that scholarship side opened. But living there and getting to see the actual environment of what we were living in, and like most people they'd be like, What are you doing? Like, this is like probably not safe, not sanitary type of thing, and like going, this is like the extreme of like living condition. And yeah, you would to go to town, we'd catch the matatu. So it's a van. Um, and it's like a multi-passenger van that would they would just like taxis be driving down the highway or down the road, and you'd just basically be standing off the side of the road to catch one to go to town, and you'd have to go back in, or to get out of town, you'd have to go to the matatu stage area to catch one back out. So it wasn't like, oh, we're gonna just hop in the car every day and go to town, get stuff. Um, town was kind of interesting because if you went in, that's where you get all your groceries, and you made sure to get all your stuff there. All your food and things like that for like fruits and stuff, you get it locally, so it'd be like local street. Vendors and everything like near this training center where we get most of our stuff. But like the luxuries, you wipe that out. Like everything that you understand here, like in the US, and like that what like that I grew up with, that was just no. Like there are fast food and there are things like that, restaurants and stuff in the town of Elderet. But outside of that, there's not much of anything. Um, but that'd be a 45-30 minute drive, depending on how fast the Matati was going, how many people that are picking up, how many people they're dropping off. So it wasn't just a hey, no air conditioning. So if the windows were open, like it felt decent. But if not, like you were everybody's sweating in there and it would smell pretty bad, and you're like crammed in 20 something people inside like a 12-person van.

SPEAKER_01: 40:48

Oh no. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02: 40:49

So you're like literally, they would like take uh they take wooden planks to put in between the seats, like where the walk area is to make another extra seat or two. So it was just like adding as many people to inside that they could. Um, the other funny thing was like, yeah, like our cooking and stuff, like we would every day was the same meals. So local things that we could get our accessibility to was uh rice, maize, which is corn, but uh we'd make or it'd be maize flour, so corn flour, potatoes, beans. Twice a week we would have meat. So that would be either some type of um goat or cow beef, and then sometimes chicken cuckoo. Uh that's what it's called there. And so, like, those were like the main things, and then like vegetables and stuff called like there's a green vegetable called skumawiki, and everything was just like incredible. Um, and then with the maize flour, every every meal at night we would have this thing called ugali, and it's basically maize flour dumped into a huge boiling pot of water, but you'd rise it up with the water temperature that wasn't boiling yet. Um, but you'd rise it up and it would just come like thick almost like mashed potatoes, but like even thicker. So it'd like basically you could like cut an actual like square of it and eat it with like your hand in a way. So it wasn't like it was like soft, like a not bread, but not mashed potatoes, but like an in-between, where it's like soft and moist like the mashed potato, but like solid like bread almost, but just not dried out. So we'd have the same meals every day. So at night it would be cabbage and ugali for lunch, it'd be rice and beans with uh corn in it. And um and then when season would roll around, it'd be there'd be potatoes. So when the it would you always work on the seasons there too. So when the potato season would come around, everything would switch over to potato um for the lunches and stuff, and then in the morning we would have sliced of bread and chai tea. And chai tea is literally black tea and milk and tons and tons of cane sugar.

SPEAKER_01: 43:18

I was gonna ask you about sugar. Okay, okay. So that's where the sugar is coming from. That's where we get the glucose.

SPEAKER_02: 43:22

Okay, interesting. So cane sugar is like the the source, uh, I would say. Yeah, so like that was like every day having the same bills, which is very, you know, here I grew like growing up in the house and everything um at home, it was every night of the week we'd have a different meal, and then one night a week we'd have this thing called Root Little Hogger Dye. So it's basically all the leftovers inside the fridge, and that's what you would make. But then going to Kenya, it's the same meal all the time, but it kind of showed me something of consistency, of having the same foods and consistency of that for the training purposes is phenomenal. Because one, like you know exactly where you're getting in, your body's not going through all these weird transitions of changes, so it's constant, like you're just on the same level the entire time. So for training purposes, like you can always still be consistent. There's not always like you're not waking up every day and you're like, Oh, I don't feel good because I ate a whole thing of wings last night, or I had a hamburger, or whatever, you know, type of thing. It's you're always consistent in your diet. So your diet was the same, and for training-wise, it made it really easy because you didn't have to you didn't have to think about what you're gonna eat, you just whatever was gonna be served, that's what that's what it was, and it was always very consistent, and it was also very local, too. Um one of the founders, Joffat Kim Lutai, so he was so there's some really unique people that are involved in the in in Kenya and with our training centers and stuff. But Joffit, 1998, World Athletics, 800 meter champion, and he has an incredible farm. So a lot of the stuff that we get would come from his farm. So it was local food, local produce, local product, and everything was really natural, which is a huge thing. Because when I came back home and ate, tried to eat a banana, it did not taste like a banana, it did not taste right. And avocado, there's like ice cream, I would say. Like it's so just sweet and just soft, like butter and just incredible. But the flavor just pops. Um, which I would say, like on that side, I felt more luxurious in food being there.

unknown: 45:57

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 45:58

Because it was so natural, it was so real, it was like you tasted it, and it like what you thought of is exactly how it would taste. And you didn't have to add anything extra, you didn't have to go and add crazy sauces and stuff, and you didn't have to over season something to make the flavor pop out.

SPEAKER_01: 46:17

It was just it was tender, it was good, it was how and this isn't too much of a hot take, but like in America in America, more or less our food's generally poisoned, but yeah, yeah, but at the same time, like I mean, dude, you eat beef abroad or any type of red meat, and you're like, whoa. Or even like a grass-fed ground beef when you have like a real like something that's grass-fed ground beef straight from the farm, and you compare that to something you get at like Safeway, you're like, this is how's this the same animal? What are we doing here?

SPEAKER_02: 46:47

Yeah, like what am I paying for here? It's crazy, it's absolutely crazy. Yeah, and so like there's like different things that where it's like the luxuries of certain things here are really nice, like convenience of getting around. And I would say, like, over there that for for there's not many races. I mean, there's a lot of races, but it's in the track side of things. So to get into or to go to one of those races, you had to pile up in a van and go together as a team and stuff, but it would just be like we'd be completely piloted in a distance of what would take like a hundred kilometers, what would take probably an hour and a half here. There it would take like four or five hours, sometimes even longer, depending like depending on how far and what was on the route of the drive. So, like having that to go to races or go to events and for the athletes to be in the car rides for extremely like for a long period of time, and then still having to compete at a crazy level is insane. But having some of the luxuries of like consistency of food and all these other things was a huge, I think it's a benefit. Um, and I feel like there's even athletes here who've realized that. Who've realized consistency is a huge thing. Consistency in your work and play, like what do you do on your days off and what you're doing in your training sometimes, like having the consistency in your training is a big thing of what days you're gonna do stuff. Um, the other crazy thing of like I would say that was really kind of scary was like, yeah, if I got sick over there, the idea of going to a hospital for me was like, no, I I was nervous at all. Like, I was like, no, I'm not going stepping foot in a hospital because like they got even crazier things out there that somebody could carry in to a hospital, and I could just catch by just being there. So I'm like, no, let's be smart. Like, if I get sick, I have medicine with me from here from the States that I brought over. And then if I need anything different, I can have somebody go up to a pharmacy and get something relatively the same, or they'll make some type of crazy drink for me to drink. And that's what happened a couple times. They would uh make some like random, like local, they get like local honey and like some other stuff, but like make these like crazy drinks and concoctions, and I they'd like just drink it. And I'm like, okay, that's what I'll do. Yeah, it worked. I I mean I was better. Uh it took a while for me to get back to training uh when that would happen. So I was like, don't drink the water here, be smart, drink bottled water, like that's the thing, that's the goal. If uh you could drink sodas and stuff, but like bottle waters and things, which I would only drink sodas while I was there. I never drank a soda really here in the States, but in Kenya, I was like, I allow it because it's made with cane sugar.

SPEAKER_00: 49:51

That's true. No high fructose corn syrup, that's not bad. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 49:55

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, and yeah, and getting the C kind of experienced that. And I mean, it's hard to tell people like unless you take them over to experience what it's really like. I mean, I can tell everything of what the living conditions are and and how it is to live there and to be involved and stuff, but until like you actually get to see it, I mean, I feel like people would be jealous here because our temperature is 50 degrees in the morning, 70 degrees in the afternoon. It stays consistent because you're on the equator. So you have 12 hours of like it'd be 11 and a half hours of sun or yes, of sun, and then or 11 and a half hours of or of darkness and then 12 and a half hours of sunlight. So it was like the perfect ratio, I feel like, where every day the sun would always say this, like set the same time. Your sleep schedule was amazing. You go to bed like at I go to bed at like seven o'clock at night after we eat dinner, eight o'clock sometimes too. If I was hanging out, we'd play like cards and stuff. And yeah, and so it was like getting to bed early for training the next day at like 5 45, be at the gate, 6 o'clock. We take off as a team of 40 to 70 athletes. It's pretty unique. And that's new life, dude.

SPEAKER_01: 51:24

Yeah, I'm going, man. I'm yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02: 51:27

I mean, I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to put together actually right now. Um, because we since we have the hotel, we can host up to 20 or 32 international athletes along with our 72 athletes that can be Kenyan-based or East African. Um so like my goal is to be able to bring people over to actually experience it and see it and like live it. Uh whether that's for I say you need to be there more than a week. I think 10 days is like optimal. I think that's like the right amount to experience everything, not have like the full jet lag and turnaround, uh, but to really take everything in. But like we have guys who are coming over on the international side from Germany and from Belgium and stuff, who are training over there and they're over there for at least three weeks, if not several months. And we just hosted several athletes on the Indonesian team, national team. Um, a couple of the guys from the German national team are getting involved in Belgium. So it's kind of cool, like a lot of international side, but it's like, okay, now we need some Americans, some US athletes. And I would say troll running would be great there too, because that's single track. I mean, you think about it, all these little villages that we're around, they're all getting around through single track and forest roads. So, like, most of the training that's being done that we're running on is on single track or forest roads, so you can just dip off into the Capta Got Forest, which is a massive forest um space, eucalyptus, um, massive eucalyptus trees and evergreens and cypress and stuff. Smells amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 53:13

And just there are lions, like what's the animal situation like?

SPEAKER_02: 53:16

We got lions and no, there's not there's not lions uh where we're at. So you gotta go down into the valley into like the Masaimara, uh, which is a couple hours away.

SPEAKER_01: 53:27

All right, so we're a little bit further away from lions.

SPEAKER_02: 53:29

Yeah, that's closer to uh Tanzanian stuff, but where we're at, like the main animals that you're gonna see are these uh are monkeys. So you have colobus monkeys, they're like a white face, or they have a black face, but white like around the head, and they have this huge white tail, but they're up in the trees, and there's a couple other styles, and then there's I've been told there's a lot of crazy snakes where we're at. I haven't seen any.

SPEAKER_01: 53:58

Cobras, dude, that'd be dope.

SPEAKER_02: 53:59

That's exactly yeah. When somebody was like, Oh yeah, we killed like a cobra like last week, and I'm like going, What? And they're like, No, they just don't come out of the forest, they don't come near people because like they they like their space, and I'm like, what kind of the spider situation like?

SPEAKER_01: 54:13

I think this is the the common delimitator on whether or not I'll go. Is there like I'm not doing not doing spiders, dude?

SPEAKER_02: 54:20

No, it's it's crazy. So where we're at, so we're since we're at 8,000 feet elevation, and with the temperature range, most bugs don't aren't around. So like you don't deal with a lot of bugs, you don't deal with a lot of the wildlife that you see that's down in the valley um below the rift, um, rift and everything. And so that's kind of away from you. Um yeah, it's I thought there'd be bugs or mosquitoes and stuff show up. No. We had uh tomatoes malaria-free.

SPEAKER_01: 54:57

There we go.

SPEAKER_02: 54:58

Yeah, it's like, yeah, you gotta go. I mean, there's different places, but like when you're at the high altitude, which actually most people don't realize this oh, most of Kenya is at high altitude. Nairobi's at almost 6,000 feet of elevation. Elderit is at 7'6, I believe, or five, or no, 6'5, and then it goes up to where we're at in Kaftagat is at 8,000, and then right where the rift is at, and we're eating, it's closer to 9,000 feet of elevation. So you have cool temperatures where it's like in the 40s and 50s at night, and then during the day it's 60s and 70s, and it's like it's like being on the bay in a fancy.

SPEAKER_01: 55:38

All right, all right. Yeah, I'm sold, dude. You don't have to I I think I'm in. This is uh this is pretty cool. I'm interested.

SPEAKER_02: 55:44

Yeah, yeah. No, got it gotta get you over there, man.

SPEAKER_01: 55:48

Dude, I gotta ask you this. How did it change how like it had to have left a lasting impact on who you are as a person now? Like how how has it changed you in that way?

SPEAKER_02: 55:59

I so kind of something funny. So years, so let's see. I want to say it was before, yeah. Um, right after my dad was diagnosed. Um, I had this idea that popped in my head of starting a running brand thing. I didn't know where it was gonna go with, but it was called Tilio Running. And I had this cousin growing up who was his nickname was Papa Tilio. He died in a freak accident when I was in high school. But he was like the the mentor and the person I looked up to. And but he was there was something about him that was everywhere he went and everybody he was around, he was always the same person. He never was like a different person in settings. And I always kind of took that as always be you and always be who you are, own up to that, you know, own and who you are and don't step away from that. And your path and your and your and your walk that you've gone down, no matter where it's gone, whether it's faith-based or not. Be real with that and be consistent with that. Um so that was like kind of a start of it. And then going to Kenya and being actually be involved and getting to see, I gotta stay at a friend's house who lived in a mud hut. Um, but he was a top-level athlete. He actually went on and actually performed at the Junior Olympics in Colombia in 2018. And won he won gold in the 800s. And it's like, but like he was from the Maasai tribe, but grew up in a like in an actual mud hut. And you're just like, you know, like a lot of people they'd think if they're born in a certain situation, they'd never have a chance, or they'd never have an opportunity. And here's somebody who had, you know, where everybody else would be like, no, there's no opportunity from that. And here he is, he's making a chance, giving it like getting an opportunity at everything. And I'm just like sitting there going, the impact that I'm like having on him and then on all these athletes, and getting to be around them and connecting, and just just being a friendly person and being true to them, it it impacted me, I think, more than impacted them. Even though they're all like every time that I see one of my friends here in the US on the scholarship and and racing out of university, and they're just like, you know, McKenna or Fred, because about the spinal names, Fred, and they're like, or Kip Chumbo or Kip Chai, and they'd call me different names.

SPEAKER_01: 58:47

Uh but they would just be like, Chai for now.

SPEAKER_02: 58:50

Dude, yes, please. That is that is it. Um, but they would uh they would always be like, Man, you you gave you were there, like you, you trusted in me, or you believed in me, and you you were you got to see the beginning of this, and and for me, I was like, I got to see somebody who probably would never have thought they would have a chance, was first generation scholarship um opportunity. First, first person ever to leave the country, uh, and their family and their and and everything. And and so it's like that's a huge thing to take away, and to realize the impact of just believing in somebody and being there just to help, it goes way beyond than what I am. And and that's one of those things where running it showed me it's that running was not a me sport, and it's and it's it's about everyone that's around it and everybody that's involved. And that's honestly, it's it struck a core to me that's Stronger than anything. And even though I haven't got to go over to Kenya this year, and it was kind of sad, but I'm trying to plan for something a little bigger to actually have a bigger impact of it of bringing people over, engaging. And that was that's kind of what I want, I want people to see that and have that opportunity. And it is like it is truly that way. And just how everybody reacts and interacts with one with each other. And kind of something that speaks with a lot of volume is like this year, um, Kenya was actually named the most friendliest country in the world. And it was kind of cool. It was like this is this is real. Like, it's not just me experiencing in a unique environment, and it's only one spot. It's no, the actual the whole country is like incredible. There's a yeah, there's a lot of other different things when you get up closer to the borders and stuff of small land and stuff that are a little more dangerous. But as a whole, as a whole, it is a group of people that is down to earth and and show you that no matter what living conditions they're in, no matter anything the what's facing in front of them, what barriers there, opportunity and being optimistic in life is a huge thing. And that they're gonna go and try to seize the day and take advantage of it. And they're also gonna have a smile no matter what's going on in their life. Just that that's what it is. I'm like having a smile, and and no matter what's going on, that's you yeah, life is gonna be tough and life is gonna be hard. But you gotta realize it's gonna get better, and there's gonna be other things, and you gotta look for those positivities. You can't be negative about it, you gotta find you gotta be optimistic, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:10

I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:11

All right, let's show let's shift gears off that because I think that's a good that's a that's a good point to go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:15

We gotta go because we're already an hour in. Let's go to let's go to Cirque series.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:19

Dude, I could go I could do this for three hours, but I gotta it's like and it's like one of those things like that there's just so much that's happened. Um, so okay, I'll start off how Circ Series kind of started.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:30

Yes, yes, let's do that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:32

So 20 so 2000, so last year, 2024, I was running around with the San Francisco Running Company with my camera and running around out there on the trails, and there's this guy named John. His nickname is hairdresser John, as some people know him as. And he was like, dude, you're freaking fast, you're running with the top people, and then you're dropping back with your camera gear and taking photos, and then catching up to that front group and just zigzagging as we're running this 17-mile like course uh with the with the San Francisco Running Company on in on their um Saturday morning runs. He's like, Why are you not racing? And I was like, Ah, I just never thought about racing. I was like, I have this one race I always go for, which is Bixir International Marathon, that's kind of it, just a road marathon. But I've never like, you know, put myself out there on the trail side too much, besides what happened in Germany even before that. And he was like, You need to go get a coach and you need to get into the sport. So like, okay, cool. I'll let me go, you know, he's like, let me go bop around, see who I can find to be my coach. And he's like, Your buddy Leo, who was at the time was one of the managers at San Francisco or at SFRC, um, was wanting to start his own coaching and stuff. And he was like, go bug Leo and become his first athlete and stuff for it. And so I was bugging Leo and kind of was like, okay, can you, you know, can we can we make something happen and try to start coach me? Because I I have no idea where I'm going with this and what I'm doing. I don't know anything about nutrition, I don't know anything really about the the training on the trail side. Like I could do it on the on the road section and stuff, but trell's different. And I also have no idea where I'm gonna put myself out there. So we built a three-month uh training plan with races all involved from July of last year till October. So it started off with Speed Goat and ended off with Kodiak 21K. And we also had in there um the US National Champs 50K and a couple other um Golden Trail, two Golden Trail races, so Mammoth and Um Headlands. And then we also threw in the back um or the dragon's back ascent. So it was like a whole range of races, short period of time to see where you stick and stand. So I get this, I go to Snowbird, go race, speed goat, find out about Ceric Series. And I was like, oh, there was this race a week ago here. What you know, what was it? What was going on? It's a nine-mile race, it goes straight up to the top, draws back down. And I was like, I wonder, I want to know what that is. But I was like, let me finish my season here. I'm not gonna go research it or anything, I'm not gonna do anything on that. I'm just gonna go hop in to what I'm already have established and figure out what I need to do and where I'm gonna go. Got all the way to Kodiak, got second place in the 21k. The whole buildup was like, go run these other races, figure out each time a new thing, whether it's nutrition, hydration, uh, a certain type of brand nutrition that you want to try, the shoes, the if you want to get out polls, test them out. Like these are all the things just learning till Kodiak came up. After Kodiak came, I sat down, me and Leo did, and we were like, okay, you had a good season, a lot of learning, you did really well towards the end. Um, a lot of good buildups, did really well and kind of showcasing who you were, getting connected with a couple different brands, but nothing like nothing crazy, but just getting yourself out there, getting your feet wet. And we put together a plan of like, okay, what's gonna be 2025? I was like, you know, I heard this thing, Circ series, after Snow when I was at Speed Goat, had no idea what it was, but it looks pretty unique. And he's like, What is it? I'm like, at the time they had six races, they didn't drop in the two East Coast races. I was like, six races, it's all on the west side. I'm like, so it'll be easy to get around um to go in between each race, like two and a half months of period of time on the circuit, go play around on it. Then they dropped in at the beginning of the year, the east coast side, and I was like, oh crap, they uh they had two other races completely on the other side of the country, uh, to travel out to, and at the same time, they also, the week before, they had US track and field or the US um mountain championship. Yeah, Seneca. And so I was like, oh, you know what? Let's actually build out a van, go race the whole season, and see if I can win this thing. I was like, I mean, it was just like one of the seasons, like, I highly doubt anybody's ever raced the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:46

No, you're the I think you're the first pro no Garrett Corker in has, but you're the first non-I mean, I don't know, as far as like non like profess like Christian Allen, right, has won in previous years. Yeah, you're the first guy to like go do that and win. I don't know if you know that, if anyone's gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:06

I it's crazy, like it was and so like the whole thing was like I don't know anybody who else has done this like all the way through. I just kind of like did a little bit of history research, and but I didn't like go deep dive and stuff. Um, but on the non-pro, like go into the pro section, but be a non-pro like at the beginning, and just be like, we're just gonna go figure out things on the way. And if I run all eight races and if nobody else does it, that gives me a better shot and a better opportunity. On the other side of it, we were like, you know, it's kind of crazy that nobody or that there's not a group of athletes that have thrown themselves out there on this circuit because you have goal and trail series, which I would say is that next step above the circuit series of distance and of traveling. And so it's like it's basically taking the goal and trail series, drop it down a step, but do everything the exact same every other week. You're racing, you gotta know how to recover, you have to be on your A game, you have to travel, all these other logistics have to be in there, and you still gotta race. I was like, let's go, let's go see if I can throw myself up there on the wall like a spaghetti and see if I stick. Um, and that's what we kind of did. It was like learn as we go and figure out what shoes we want to race in and and stuff. And so most of the races I ran in, the um Solomon Pulsar 3s, they changed that whole other shoe to the fours different. I was like, no, I don't want to run the fours. They're the lug depth is different, the style of the shoe, the sock-like. I don't know. I I found this shoe before last year and it worked for me. Let's take it into this whole series. And if there's other courses that I want to try out, other shoes, we can try all the shoes. Um, but that's like the shoe I knew and felt comfortable in. But like hopping onto it, that's a crazy thing. I mean, Julian and Steven have put together something that's just out there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:20

It's the best thing in the country, dude. I I love it for so many reasons. I I love how it's removed from it's like obviously like short trail, but it's something just different, man. I I don't know. It's hard to explain. I talk about this, I feel like I'm a broken record. People that listen to this podcast feel like everyone's like, oh man, you know, like I I've had so many people reach out to me, but like, I have tried the Cirque series because you've talked about it on the podcast so much because I never shut up about it. But I I just that's the the style and circuit that I choose to race on. I find it the most interesting and intriguing courses. I love the Mountain Classic. Um, there's other things, like I think the Rut is really amazing. I think Broken Arrow is really amazing. I think those are two like solid, worthwhile like racing series in the country and get super competitive. Um I think outside of that, in the United States, I think the Cirque series is the best game in town, and it's so competitive and hard. Like it's uh you and it's in different characters that are at different races, so you're never generally racing the same group of guys and gals twice. Like, yeah, you've got your mainstays, but at the same time, like you know, you'll show up to a race and Joe Demore will be there, or you know, someone new, Jackson Cole.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:29

Like, it's just a good assortment of humans, so yeah, like the first race, it was it was kind of funny because then son of yeah, yeah, you got to race Dan and uh Remy Kurt, yeah. And Dan was like, you know, we got to talk a little bit and ran the first race, and afterwards he came up to me, and he's I mean, to me, I didn't really know of who he was before. And then once we started to actually have a conversation, I actually like saw who it was, and I'm like going, This guy's legit in this realm. I mean, like, he is one of the top of the top guys in the world at this style of racing, and also like on the technical side, he's like extreme. There's I think there's few that come close to him on this like crazy descender who can just throw down wicked times.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:15

He's probably the best. I mean, I I know Dan, but like, and I hate blowing smoke up his ass, but like probably the most talented, one of the most talented athletes to come into our sport in the last decade. Hands down, Iowa State, like, dude, is so good. Um, but yeah, he's in technical terrain, it's just yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:32

So it was kind of funny, like that first race running at Cannon. I I took off, and me and Remy were right next to each other, and I was like, you know what? None of these guys know who I am. Let me just go and just see what I can do. So I started to take it off, and they caught me before like we started the second ascent, really going up the actual climb, which was two miles and 2,000 feet of vert, and it was like crazy technical and rocks and just big boulders and stuff and routes and wicked terrain. And I thought, like, oh, the ski slope will just be easy. No, the actual the real part is when the when the real pros come out and show their show what they're got. And after the race, Dan came up to me. He was like, dude, you took off way too fast. He goes, like, that was way too quick. Like, you should have been like a little bit behind, you know, and kind of watched how things were gonna go, and you probably would have actually saved yourself and would have given you probably a better opportunity to get on podium at the first race by just taking it easy and playing smart. And instead, I had so much energy in me, and I was just like, wow, you know, I was gonna go out with you about that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:49

You race very aggressively. I mean, I've been on a start line now twice with you, and I think you like I felt like you go out very hard. I'm like, damn, this dude runs you you know, Euro style, dude. That's what I gotta say. You run like you run like a Eurostyle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:00

Well, like to me, it's like I I uh big fan of uh of pre prefontaine, and you know, his whole mantra thing was uh if I don't do the best I can, I don't want to, you know, it's like if I don't go out there and push as hard as I can and give everything I got, why do I deserve, you know? So it's like I want I want to do that, and I just gotta learn I gotta have other things in my cards too. You gotta play smart, you gotta know when those times and when those chances that you're gonna take to give you that opportunity. Don't just go at the very heart of the gun and take off, because nine times out of ten, that's not gonna work out unless you're already at that level and know that you can compete at a very high intensity at redlining the whole race. Learning still you got that, dude.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:58

You got that. I mean, hey, you won the whole thing with fairness.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:00

And so like getting to talk to Dan about that and him telling me it was like, okay, second race, we showed up at Killington, and totally different outcome. He was like, I took off, and it was kind of funny because we all started running and talking to several people that were like, you know, Dan said if you were gonna take off, he was going to absolutely just kill you going up the hill. Just like throw down like some a pace that you couldn't even keep up with, and you just fall off. And so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna just watch this from behind, play smart, and kind of just see how everything goes. So I got to kind of sit behind the top guys and see how they were doing, and got to, you know, really get to see what this racing style should be done like. Because it's not just the uphill, you gotta have enough in the legs for the downhill to actually race it. Not just letting the legs free fall, it is a fool on your turning the leg speed over on the down. Uh, so getting up to the top, it was just brutal of a climb, ridiculous. It rained and it was just nasty out. But also gave myself the lake speed to have for the second half. Funny thing was, is coming through down at the very end of the course, there's a shootoff that goes back up the ski slope, and like four people missed it in front of me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:35

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:36

Which I was like, it was one of those things I cut on seeing, like, because there was a there was a a truck left-hand turn.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:43

Yeah, there's a there's like ATV crew or ever in front of me, and they were driving, and there was a couple people that followed that. And I'm like, why are y'all following that? Like the course, if I'm like going, I can't yell, I'm not gonna yell at them or anything, but they're like long gone, and I just saw them disappear in the forest. And I was like, Okay, we're gonna go straight up, but I still had no idea like who was all in front of me and where everybody else was at. And so I took off going up, and there was like one guy at the very top just before he turned back onto the road, and I was like, okay, let's go try to catch that guy. Got up to him, and we started racing each other coming down the ski slope. Lo and behold, I came in and everybody was like, You just took fourth place. I'm like, what? No. I was like, oh in my head, I was like thinking, I'm in seventh or eighth place, and they're like, No, no, no. Steven was racing, um uh and it was kind of crazy because he passed me on the climb, but on the downhill, never saw him at the finish line or anything. And they're like, we're sitting there for like five minutes at the finish.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:51

Steve made a wrong. Oh my god, Steve. I was with him the day before when we marked the course, do the course preview. Okay, so that's exactly the guy who knows that. Okay, that's what he was talking about when he said he missed a turn. I thought it was an early turn he missed. I didn't know it was that late in the race. Holy shit. Oh shit. Steve's probably gonna be listening to this, so he's gonna be very embarrassed.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:10

Yeah, so he missed that turn, and I was just like, we got down to the end, I'm like going, how did I beat you? First of all, and I'm like, because I know I never caught you, and then he's like, Oh, dude, we miss a turn. I'm like, You marked it. Like, I was like, dude, come on. But it was just like, it was kind of funny, but it was also going, Whoa, we got some good points. Yeah, like this is some like because I mean, even though yes, they took the wrong turn, but that's racing, that's a part of the game. That's the game that happens.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:39

Let me ask you this. What was uh just for the sake of time, like what was your favorite course? Like, what was your favorite one out of the entire race? Oh, you targi? Me too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:48

Yeah, that was me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:49

That was my I it was one of those things where the I got to get out there a couple about a week before. Yeah, it rained the whole time. Yeah, get to see the organs see it actually, I guess before no, it was it during the rain, yeah. Um and got to play out in the mud of it, and it was slick and nasty, but like it's such a cool area. Like, I'm surprised there's not more races right there or in that little area, that little pocket, at least that I know of, or anything. Because I'm like, that's some serious trails. Because I even even after the race ran around and got to go check out some of the trails a couple days later.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:35

It's one of the most beautiful places on earth. I shouldn't talk about it on the podcast because I don't want people going there. I'm standing for it. But I it it I mean, dude, I agree. Yeah, it it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:43

It's great that it had like one of the lowest numbers of people who come out to it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:48

But like one of the highest numbers of pros race that race, which is kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:51

Yeah, because it's it's the by far the best. Yeah. And I got up to the top, and it was funny because we get up to the top and And I look, I didn't look over to the Tetons. And it was like absolutely like this, everything was beautiful out. It was such a nice sunny day. But I never even looked over to the Tetons until I saw the pictures afterwards. I'm like, oh, dude, that was incredible. Like, why did I not look over? Like, but I was so like honed into racing because your oh gosh, your your buddy um at Lost Prativa. My mind just went out. Yeah. He so several different races, he has unbeat me at. And I'm like Davide's good, man.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:36

He's fast as shit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:37

Freaking awesome. Like he's so good. And like really like, you know, it's one of those things like he comes from like the skiing side and stuff. And but he's freaking good at trail.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:48

And I'm like he's a former professional. I think he was a pro triathlete, something like that back in the day. Oh yeah, he's not that old. He's only in his I I think you would appreciate me saying this. He's he's like mid mid-30s, somewhere in that range.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:00

Yeah. Yeah. But it's like just solid. And but as well as people going, oh, you know, you're just here like working for Las Murtiva and stuff. Like, you know, kind of like you're tagging in a way, like I thought in my head, like, oh, just you know, tagging on to the race, type of thing. It's like you're working the event, but also doing this. And every race he was actually doing really well. And I'm like, I gotta freaking beat this guy. Like, I know I can't. I just have to actually do it. So we get up to the top of the climb, and he comes up to me, and I just look at Davi and I'm just like, it's not your day. Like in my head, I just look over and he starts like trying to pass me on the down on the first descent.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:42

Okay, so coming off of Mary's nipple.

unknown: 1:21:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:45

Before you get to square top. Okay. All right. That's where the move is made in the race.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:49

Yeah, so he starts coming past me, and we just both do like a V-line straight down the mountain. Like, we're just like, you know what? Whatever this is gonna do, this is gonna do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:59

Like, we're just someone's gonna die, someone's gonna die.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:02

This is for the biscuit right here. Then we go up the square top, we're both neck and neck, and we get up to that like right when you crest over, it's a really good, actually, like long descent.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:14

Yeah, but it's off trail.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:16

But it's off trail. Yeah, but it's also super soft, but like crazy rocky, but soft too. Like, there's some good grass up there. I was just like, this is the time to make the move before you get back to the single track, before you get to the road, everything. Take it here. I'm pretty sure I dropped like a it was like somewhere in the fours in that section.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:37

Dude, and that section is nasty. That's hard. I mean, like, I get it on the road. The road is easy to do that, but like that section, it's just ankle ankle biters the whole way, like until you hit the road. Good on you. That's a great place to make a move.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:50

I am gonna take them here and got onto the single track or got onto the road, and then we jumped onto the single track, and I just kept them bringing out the pace. Got to see where a couple of the other guys were in front of me on the single track, and I was like, okay, start picking, which was probably my best race too, because I actually played really smart at the beginning, holding back, kind of just had a good grind to the top. That road, yeah, yeah. And probably still wasn't my best like climbing capabilities, but still had a good pace, set a good time, wasn't gonna burn myself out. Because like literally, you start at from the bottom of the mountain, you go straight up. There is no section where you can do that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:32

I mean, that road is, I think it's I mean, you're climbing, I think it's like 800 feet a mile. So that the math on that's like 16% that road, something like that, until you hit the top, like till you go off trail. Yeah, dude, I have long thought about this because I really struggled on that road ascent. I I like completely blew up in the first like two miles. We went out way too fucking hard with you people.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:54

And uh yeah, going up there and like having some targets on that where I was like, okay, there are two little flat plateaus on this course on the road where you can get leg speed back up and then try to push a little bit more. But when we started coming down, got to the single track, I started chasing down the other guys, and in my head it was like, we're actually racing. This is the first time on this whole series that I actually felt like racing, which is crazy because that was the third to last race of the season, and my what I felt like was my best performance, catching people, putting good times down, got to the end, and I put over two and a half minutes, I believe, on Davi to the end. So, like getting to the top in like every other race, I never felt comfortable on the downhills, and that one with the switchbacks and how good the trail is. I was just like, this is game on.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:54

See, I would have much preferred like I like the road sections, man, going down. I did not like the single track. It's like the single track is just not that I mean, at least to me it wasn't that straightforward. Like I felt like it didn't feel like I was losing three to five hundred feet a mile on that. Like it some of it maybe I was just fatigued, but I I don't know, dude. I I I've I felt like I yet to have snapped like a really solid like and it's funny because a lot of my friends like have gotten their like 5k PRs on that descent. And I have not, like I I've really like not liked it. So I don't know. Maybe it's just me being a weak ass bitch, but it's also possible that you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:34

So yeah, but I I honestly like I felt once we got onto that, and just that from that from the start of Mary Nipple down in my head, there was a switch that like instantly changed. It was just like race. Like, don't don't think of anything else. Race. This is where we have to race. Like my point standing. I was like, I was in the lead already at this time of the season, which was a crazy thing, but it was still like okay, we're in the lead, we have points, we gotta capitalize on this one because Mason's right behind me, and I can't let Mason catch me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:18

Like Mason's like one of the best in the world, too. Like, it wasn't. Oh, I know, like in the first time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:21

But he has only going four of the eight. I'm like, oh I can't let him beat me on this like thing of doing four, and like, and that's one of those things, but it's also like I also want the Circle series to be one of those things you can't just show up to only a few. Like, I I was talking to Julian a little bit about this, where it's like, this should be a development racing series. Like, I don't know why either Trell team or all any other like build-up teams aren't putting all their like a couple racers on the whole season and take like going after it. One to get the spotlight, two to actually race week in, week out at that top level and be in an actual series where it's like at the end, it's more than just saying, Oh, I did really well at this race and this race and this race all on their own. Yeah, it's like no, I got to walk away with a belt buckle and get to say, Hey, I'm top of the top, yeah, you know, the whole series. So it's kind of one of those things. I'm like, I kind of want to push that. Like, I want to make it where you can't just do that, and you get the extra experience, the whole thing, and all these races and courses and stuff are incredible, and the communities that they're in are pretty freaking sweet. Um, getting involved up in New Hampshire and stuff with like the 603 crew. So Tom Hooper's group, incredible group of people. What a couple of awesome, amazing, yeah. And dude, shout out to Tom, dude. Just freaking crushing it on the uh race directing out there. Like Tom's a man, dude.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:59

Tom's a rare, a rare human. He's he's another man that's just a a real, a real one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:05

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and so my getting to see like all these different pros racing on the whole series, but it's like, man, this is the perfect spot to develop as an athlete. Like, if you want to become up and coming and and young and then become relevant in the sport at a unique spot and have that leg speed and learn a lot in a very short amount of time, I think this series is hands down the greatest thing for that. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:35

All right, so what's next for you then? Are you going back next year?

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:40

So, oh gosh. Um, so I got an actual opportunity to work with CEDAs. Okay. Congratulations. So I'm kind of like stoked about that. Actually, have a cool friggin' billboard uh deal. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:57

Not an official sponsor of the podcast yet, but uh, I mean, I don't think Aiden would be too upset at me saying this.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:02

Hey, knock on one, man.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:03

Soon to be official sponsor of the podcast, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:06

Um so like so right now we're trying to figure that out because next year it's gonna be a really cool year. Sponsoring, they're sponsoring UTB, Western States, um, Broken Arrow, and they'll be back at Mammoth, and there's a handful of other races that they're gonna be a part of.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:30

So you'll be all over them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:32

So, like to me, it's like, okay, I got to do Circ Series, and that was incredible. I have like I have thought about, you know, has there been a back-to-back champion? No, there hasn't.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:44

I mean, you could run it back, but you could also, but also, dude, who would there, you know, I I think I see it 50 to 50. You could run it back and probably do the same thing again, or you could leave it open for someone else to do it. I mean, it's exactly or come back in another year.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:59

And that's my thing, is like, I feel like that's a great building block for a young athlete to come up in and to learn in the sea. So, like, I'm actually gonna be with the CDs opportunity, gonna go to Broken Arrow, gonna go out to do all the UT and B events. So race on the short distance, so sub Ultra, so like the 21k up to like the 30k or so, and race at that distance on the UTMB series, yeah, and getting experience that, but also be able to actually put a foot out there for CEDAs on the sh on the sub Ultra. So it's kind of one of those things that's like trying to actually build an athlete spotlight on the sub-ultra side um for them, and then also we'll be sponsored still with Nature Sunshine and getting them some other outlets because they're gonna still be sponsoring um Circ Series as a as a title sponsor with Lost Purtiva, but I think there's you know it's it'd be cool to also show them off in other areas and be able to get involved in different things. And I got to talk with a couple of different other really cool, awesome guys as fast as we get TRE, and they were just like, you know, go and take another approach, you know, go take a step into something else. You know, you got to experience something very unique. Why go and do that again?

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:30

Yeah, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:32

Um yeah, which was really cool because like Zach, um Zach with that mountain outpost, Zach Maron, he showed me that. He was like, dude, go like from experience of having gone and done like races repeated, you know, year after year, go and take uniqueness, like go get the opportunity of experience of different areas, different races, different things. So I'm like, you know, that's let's do that and kind of get to see what that next level of racing will be like, especially having some leg speed. I'm also trying to plan right now a marathon for the spring. Nice and so build up for that. Try to actually go and do an actual like race time that I feel like is competitive, or at least start building up for it because like my ultimate goal is 2028 Olympic trials, at least get to the trials, all right, all right. So I I have a I have a you know a push to try to go for a sub 230 on this this side for right now just to get that leg speed, kind of dabble more into the marathon realm. I've been on target at that at Bixir before at a two I finished off with a 255, but that doesn't tell the story. Two years ago, it was um 50 it was uh 30 miles an hour headwind the whole race. I took off, nobody knew who I was, trying to think. At the halfway point, I was leading through the half with an hour, I was hour 17 on that course, which is a crazy course in crazy conditions. Had no idea about nutrition and stuff, and that's where everything felled after mile 21. Um, and then everything went downhill. So, like in my head, I'm going, I never got to get on a flat marathon course. We were on target and on pace at a 134 or I mean 234 pace on a really hard day. And I gained over 21 minutes in the last four or five miles. So it was like, let's go fix this.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:51

Yeah, you definitely, you're definitely fast. Let's go fix the marathon. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:55

Yeah, let's go try that. So that's where I'm gonna be headed towards the spring, and then got some other cool opportunities. I get to go pace a really good friend of mine at Coca-Dona this year. So that will be really cool and get to be on the team. Um so I'm really stoked for that, and then get ready for the summer.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:16

All right, dude, I love it. I love it. Uh you know what, dude, Circ Series will always be there, hopefully. Yeah, I could imagine it would be.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:24

No, it's one of those things. Like, if there's a race, like if there's a circle series race, like that we're if I'm close to it in vicinity with doing the UTMB stuff, then that's what I'll like. I'll go hop over there, whether I run, or I mean I'll I can I mean I can get a spot, run in it, yeah, or just go and do freaking pull off the gene uh setup that I had this year, cowboy hat and everything, and just get rally up on the uh trails.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:55

You are the king of Stoke, man. We love seeing you out there being being the Stoke guy, getting that's another thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:01

Like we need more people, like more running communities and like troll running communities to go out to these races and like actually having like fan zones and like areas you're hyping up. It's so funny. Like, so many people that are like, well, you know, I just want to go race over in Europe or I want to go and experience these things. We can do that here. We can set up these races to where you have that same fan of or uh fan of the sport or fandom of the sport where people can line up on the course, cheer, party out there, like just bring in that hype and that stoke that's real. Because I mean it shows up to certain races, and I would say like Western States is one of those where you could see it this year, where like 300-400 people were up on the mountain cheering. Yeah, let's do that at like Cirque series and stuff. Like, let's get the hype out there. Like, if you're not racing, guess what? Go up on the mountain instead of down at the finish line cheering, go up to the mountain, and that will make it like last way more of an impact for every individual runner.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:11

Did you preach into the choir, man? I am like such a nutcase about this. So I'm on the board of pikes, and like one of the things that drives me the most crazy is like we just don't do enough to get like the Colorado Springs community out there. And like out there, when I say out there, I want like people, dude. I don't care if we have to rent out the goddamn train. I want people at Bar Trail going nuts. I want like a whole like you know, like when you see Sagama and people are like going up that that mount the side of the mountain, I forget the name of the peak particularly, and people are tell saying, Oh, I'm I'm going deaf, my ears are ringing because so many people are out there cheering. That's what I want at Bar Trail at like Pike's Peak. And a lot of these races, like dude, and Cirque series is such a perfect opportunity too. Because like most of these things, like most of these races, you could just take the lift up if you don't want to hike or or run. Like you could just take the cheap.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:00

So no, there's there's it's primo opportunity. And I just think this is where I challenge myself, and I think as a not just as an athlete, but like as a media member, like I I think I love to see more of a fan base. I want to just build the fan base so more people get excited about the sport. And you know, mountain runner is an itch mountain running is an interesting thing, you know, and I think that uh it's gonna continue to grow. I and I think it it starts with you know people like yourself being out there, being very outspoken, being um, you know, like I don't know. One of the things I really admire about you is like you are just like a you're the king of like I just wanted to call you the king of stoke because you're always stoked, you're always excited, and uh yeah, so it's definitely um yeah, I don't know where I'm going with this, but it's very cool.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:46

So no, it was it was one of those things where I realized really quickly it was like if you don't do it, nobody will. Yeah. So that was my whole thing where it was like after the race, after I get done racing at a competitive level, like because it's one of those things, it's like it's it's just showing people like you can compete at a high level and still have at least a decent amount of energy to get back up there somewhere and cheer. And so that's what my whole thing was like go grab my nutrition that I need back in the van, put on some sort of crazy outfit, run back up mountain, uh, whether it's like a half a mile or a mile up, and start cheering.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:26

It's the best cooldown ever.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:28

Yeah, and then when people are out there, they're like they see it and they're just like, heck yeah, like this is this is way cool and and just unique and you know, different. And I feel like that too, where you're getting a lot of people at Cerx Series who are new to the sport, new to trail running, new to the whole thing. If they can see that, like that makes them a bigger fan of the actual sport, and that would probably you know even push them to go, hey, I want to go and do that. I want to go out there and cheer. I want to be more of a fan of it. Now that I've gotten this experience at one time, now I want to be also on the other side too, where I can go and cheer and go support it and just create more fans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:13

Well, McKinnon, I think it's a good time to put a to put a bow on it, dude. I think this is a good first chapter. I can't wait for the next one. Um, dude, bring it. I appreciate you, dude. Thanks for coming on. This is a great chat. Uh uh anytime you want to come back on, we could talk Stoke. Um, I'm I'll be seeing you probably a bunch this summer. I'll definitely see a broken arrow. And uh yeah, man, I appreciate you and uh thanks a lot for coming on.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:34

Okay, let's do something at uh Trolcon. Let's get like a some Stoke hype like group run or thing. I don't know. Yeah, oh dude.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:43

Well what it's a good gate. I'll be in touch. Congratulations on the new role with Cetus, dude. I love that company. Amazing people.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:49

I am so like I'm excited to see where this is gonna go, the potential that it has. Gonna be working on like community building, connecting with communities and stuff before. Events and so like if we show up here and like come on out, like let me get involved. Like even if you have like certain running stores or running communities to get involved with um locally, let me know and yeah. So we can do a lot of cool different stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:16

That would absolutely do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:21

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:24

What'd you guys think? Oh man, I want to thank McKennan so much for coming on the show. Hopefully that's the many of me or first of many conversations down the line. Uh big fan of his, and he just brings the stoke. Um guys, uh, if you enjoyed this one, give McKennan a follow. You can find him at McKennan Waltman on Instagram. Uh, it'll be linked in the show notes. You can give him a follow on there. Um, if you guys also enjoyed the show and have been enjoying what we've been putting out there, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. I am really leaning into trying to grow that YouTube channel. So uh throw a subscription in while you're at it. That would be dope. Um, something about the whole discoverability thing. Um, Larry, last but not least, you could support us also by supporting our brand partner Ultimate Direction. Hop on over to ultimatedirection.com, use code Steep Stuff Pod. That's one word Steep Stuff Pod for 25% off your car. Thanks so much, guys. I have a bunch of cool stuff rolling out. Um as well, a bunch of yeah, as well as a bunch of um cool announcements coming out. So stay tuned.