The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#146 - Emma Cook-Clarke
What does it take to choose the mountains when a different calling has your heart? We sit with Arc’teryx athlete Emma Cook-Clarke for a candid, high-altitude conversation about identity, risk, and the rare joy of sustainable excellence. Emma reflects on a season loaded with contrasts—top 10 in the world at the uphill and a historic team bronze for Canada, a Speedgoat podium in a record-fast year, and the sting of missing Olympic SkiMo qualification—then walks us through how she’s rebuilding momentum by staying grounded in Canmore and training by feel.
Emma’s path didn’t start on talus. Gymnastics built composure, rugby taught grit and trust, and running unlocked freedom. A local uphill challenge during the pandemic revealed world-class climbing talent and led to her Arc’teryx partnership—support that feels like true professionalism: wellness first, smart planning, and access to specialists. We dig into her decision to step away from structural firefighting, drawing clear lines from the fireground to the backcountry: risk a lot to save a lot, fight complacency, and communicate with purpose. That same mindset shows up on technical ridges, at chaotic VK starts, and when the watch tries to drown out intuition.
You’ll hear a tactical breakdown of World Champs VK strategy, the team dynamics behind Canada’s first-ever medal, and a pacing masterclass from Speedgoat—altitude, heat, and humility yielding a steady engine and a late-race surge. We also celebrate the soul of skyrunning at Meet the Minotaur, where handbuilt trails and scree descents keep adventure alive, and we talk Rockies reality: bear spray, smart route choices, and a rare, unforgettable wolverine sighting that reminds us to look up and simply watch.
If you’re an athlete navigating big goals, a fan of skyrunning and SkiMo, or someone weighing a hard life pivot, Emma’s story offers a clear compass: protect your joy, respect risk, and let the mountains reshape what success looks like. Enjoy the conversation—and if it moves you, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and drop a review to help others find the show.
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello, and today I'm so excited to welcome Emma Cook Clark to the show. The Arcterics athlete was kind enough to come on and give us some time. We talked all about how she got into the sport, her background as well as her previous life as a firefighter, and kind of balancing that and ultimately having to step away not too long ago to go to the professional trail scene. Emma has had an absolutely insane 2025 season, top 10 in the world at the vertical, as well as a bronze medal for the Canadian uh team this year in the vertical, which was the first medal a Canadian team has ever scored at the uh World Mountain Running Championship, which is pretty amazing. Um we also talked a lot about a lot of other races. Um we got into Speed Goat, talked about how she figured that race out, uh, which is a race that normally people don't do too well at the first time. And Emma uh landed herself um on the podium second place for her first run. We also talked about Meet the Minotaur, where she is a former champion. Um, and actually it's a backyard race for her. We talked about what it's like living in Cranmore in the greater area and getting to train uh some of those beautiful peaks. It was fun, it was a great conversation. So I think you guys are gonna really enjoy this one. Super happy to have gotten the uh I get to chat and uh meet Emma. So without further ado, Emma Cook Clark. Emma Cook Clark. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_01:Hey James, yeah, dude, not too bad. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I'm super excited to have this conversation. I'm such a fan of yours. Like I've been following your body of work more or less for the last few years with uh usually like race preview episodes, obviously, you get brought up on all the time. And I'm just so excited to finally be chatting with you. So this is uh this is good stuff here. Um how are you doing, by the way? How's your week going so far?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's sweetie to say. Thanks for the uh the nice words there. Uh yeah, week is going all right, just coming off of the World Cup for Ski Mountaineering, which was the final race in the Olympic qualifying. And uh yeah, unfortunately in Canada, we were just shy of qualifying. So I'm in a little bit of a low from that, I think, just processing a lot. But uh otherwise, I'm I'm doing well. I'm healthy. I had quite a bit of like sickness and injury this fall, and knock on wood right now. I seem to be doing pretty well. So a lot to be grateful for.
SPEAKER_00:It's good to hear you're uh you're injury free and doing well. It's been a crazy year for you. Like a lot of like high highs. I mean, I I like I'd say the first thing, obviously, wedding you had a few weeks back, and then on top of that, you know, getting uh, you know, you got you were top 10 and then third place for Team Canada in the vertical. Uh you were the podium of Speed Goat. Like it's been a crazy year for you. So like in reflection, looking backwards, like how how does it feel to uh to accomplish all the things that you've accomplished this year?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's uh I think I need to do a bit more processing and reflecting, really. Like hearing you say all those, all those things is uh it's pretty cool. But I think right now I'm just in the little bit of I'm fixated on um yeah, the ski mountaineering stuff and just the the unknown of what's ahead and a bit of the grief surrounding that. Um so I'm I'm looking forward to just continuing to process and taking a little step back from all that and as time goes on, allowing myself to like celebrate the year for what it was, uh, because it really was a special year in so many ways, from sporting to other life uh to just personal growth as well. So yeah, I think in the right now, present moment talking to you, I'm being quite hard on myself, um, which is that's not new to me, but it's something that I'm uh excited to keep working on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I think that's I mean, you know, that's that's what competitors do, you know. I I think that if you don't didn't hold yourself to self to such a high side, yeah, hold yourself to such a high standard, um, I feel like you wouldn't be as successful, right? But I think it's holding yourself to that high standard brings a degree of success. So listen, I I think a lot of the athletes listening to this, and including myself, can totally understand and totally relate. And, you know, it's uh it's I mean, it's definitely something to uh to work through for sure. I do have to ask you this like what does that look like for you going forward? Uh at least like in this part of the season. Will you take time off? Will you continue schemo? Like what what are your um I guess immediate plans for the next few months and as things continue?
SPEAKER_02:That's a great question. Uh I've left a lot up in the air, mostly just day by day at this stage. Um yeah, I I think I just want to take a little breather and figure out what it is that I personally want and and chase goals that are exciting to me. Um so I'm not entirely sure, but I think uh it can be tricky trying to compete in both seasons, and that's led to some issues in the past. And so I I'm pretty excited, I think, actually to just ease into the scheme. I know it didn't really ease into it with this race last weekend, but um ease into it a little bit more and and just do some things for fun and take a little pressure off my shoulders. Uh yeah, I'm looking forward to just not recording anything, you know, going out, doing whatever feels right, go hard or not go hard, just get back to kind of how I have loved training for so long is going by feel and doing what's right condition-wise. So yeah, looking forward to getting out for some nice powder skiing, hopefully, some big days out. And I'm not sure. I'm a little bit honestly burnt out from all the travel. I think it's it's so much going between all the different continents to race and having time away from home and spending a lot of money traveling and then constantly being jet legged and worrying about your bag that got lost or whatever it may be. Um, I definitely appreciate all the opportunities to travel. But right now, I'm looking forward to just diving in a little bit more in my local community and being with family more, being with yeah, the new husband and uh just kind of going day by day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think that's the way to that's the way to do it, in my opinion. I I think that there's listen, you know, there's a time to go do all the fun stuff and go all over the place, but also you also live in a very beautiful place too. Like Cranmore is so cool that I wouldn't want to leave. Like I would just want to stay and ski and run all year round. Like I you couldn't get me out of those mountains.
SPEAKER_02:It is hard. It's funny. Every time I drive to the airport, I'm like, why? Why am I leaving these beautiful mountains to go to other beautiful mountains? But no, I I certainly, as I said, appreciate every opportunity to travel and see the world and experience different cultures. But you're right, Canmore is a spectacular place and it's kind of um it's not really felt like home over the last few years, solely because I haven't been there much. So I'm like looking forward to being there a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's crazy. Well, we'll have to we'll talk a little bit more about Cranmore and just like what it's like living and training as we get further in on the episode. But I think before um before we get started, I do want to kind of take a left-hand turn and maybe go back in your past. Uh, you have such an interesting backstory. Like everything I've learned in my research, like from rugby to firefighting, like such an interesting uh group of things that you've done. Maybe maybe talk about your your relationship with sport, how you got into sport, um, and kind of walk me through some of those earlier years.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. Yeah, I I uh grew up with an older brother. He's two and a half years older. So I think I always looked up to him and just tried to chase him around and also get chased by him. So sport was always a part of my life um in a like a playful sense, but then also a competitive sense. I did some competitive gymnastics in I think grade five and six, which just set a really good foundation, both physically but also mentally, for dealing with pressure, having to stay dedicated, you know, showing up on time, the consequences of sport, the highs and lows, all that. Um, but that was super structured. Then I quit that and did more soccer throughout the other, the other grades and some rugby. But yeah, I think sport's just always been um a way for me to express myself, a way for me to burn off some energy, um, and a way to just like feel really alive, I suppose, by seeing what the body can do, seeing what the mind can do as well while you're at it. And it's um it's I think one of my favorite ways to communicate with other people too, whether you're on the same team or whether you're competing kind of against each other in more of an individual sport, that sort of thing. But it's just it's so so cool to have that fairly shared experience, even though it's it's unique to each individual. But um yeah, I bit of a bit of my relationship with sport, I guess, there.
SPEAKER_00:That's interesting. Talk to me about how how did you, like I said, in my research, I found out that you had played rugby. I I find it so interesting because you know, like I mean, my background, obviously, I grew up in in America, I grew up in South Florida, Florida. It's more soccer-based. That was kind of like my primary sport. And, you know, you grow up hearing about rugby, and it's a contact sport. Like rugby's legit. Talk about this. Talk about how like you got into the sport and uh just the foundation of that, and if that had any lasting impression on you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the high school I went to, uh, shout out to Bonas High in Calgary. Rugby was one of the main sports there, and they had a history of doing quite well in it. And some of the teams even went over to New Zealand to play in tournaments, which was really cool. So uh that was part of the reason for joining the team. And in high school and junior high, I just wanted to be on every team that I could. Again, it was such a fun way to relate with people, to push myself to grow, to get these neat experiences. Um, I just couldn't couldn't get enough, really. It felt so fun and so freeing. Uh, so I decided to try rugby. I had played some basketball and then obviously soccer as well. And in those, you do, they're not so much contact sports, but you still have contact and you have to be pretty feisty and stand up for yourself and stand up for your teammates. And I am a bit like smaller in stature, but also had the running legs. So I was pretty suited for the wing and fullback positions, which are yeah, a lot of running, some contact for sure, but not you're not like holding up the whole scrum. And it's a really cool sport. I miss playing it. It's like such a such a team dynamic where you really need your teammates and and trust them and work really well together. And no one person can carry the whole team on their back, you know. You have to really work together and be a little bit selfless in it as well.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it I mean, this is uh like I the first thing I think of is like American football, right? Because that's contact sport. A little bit, obviously, there's significant differences, but I guess that's the closest like parallel that I draw toward. Um, obviously it's quite a physical sport. Like, did you ever like concussions or have any issues with that? Like, was that like ever um a thing, or were you able to kind of avoid any injury like that kind of going through the sport?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, it's certainly high impact and uh high potential. Lots of injuries were witnessed for sure, whether it be in gameplay or practice. Um, I probably got a few minor concussions, but didn't I was sort of concussions were just starting to be taken seriously. Um but no, I managed to mostly come away unscathed. I did have some shoulder dislocation happen, which I've now had surgery on, but um that was partly just like genetic and had some instability to begin with. But um no, it it certainly was not a chill sport and had lots of practices where you finished off in an ice bath because it was so painful and you're bruised everywhere. Um, but it I guess the the contact part was one of the reasons that I chose not to keep playing in university. I was choosing between running and rugby, and rugby would have been really cool, but I just thought, okay, it's at this now adult level, you know, the women are even bigger, and I would have needed to get a lot bigger myself and thought uh let's try running and then can go back to rugby if I if I want to or miss it, and or if I found running too boring. But no, the the injury piece is huge and longevity is important to me as well to be able to keep moving and doing fun things for my whole life.
SPEAKER_00:So true, so true. How how did skiing and mountain running kind of come into the fold for you? Like I've heard in uh in a couple previous episodes with you, you know, you've talked about identifying more as a mountain athlete more so than just a runner. Like talk and and I think when I think of mountain athlete, I think of encompassing both those sports of mountain running and skiing and being in this well-rounded type of athlete. How did that like not just lifestyle, but how did just uh full circle that come about for you?
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. Yeah, my parents have always brought us out doing lots in the mountains. So from a young age, I think I was just moving in the mountains in whatever way made sense. If it's winter, you're probably skiing because there's no sense running. If you're on a long, like I don't know, yeah, trail or you want to cover a lot of ground, you're mountain biking or gravel biking or road biking. If you're wanting to be on water, you're canoeing or kayaking or stand-up paddleboarding. And if you're wanting to do more vertical terrain, you're either running or climbing. So I just have been, I guess, gifted this set of skills to navigate in whichever way either is most inspiring or makes most sense. And that combined with the like a bit more organized sport background, I think I was able to have some pretty good fitness throughout my life. And um after finishing cross-country and track and field, was more into being in the mountains, and that always is where it felt most exciting to me as opposed to being on a track or a road, and just really freeing to go move your body in the way that feels good. Um, I think it, you know, you hear some people say, Oh, I hate the gym or I don't like running, it hurts, or whatever. But for me, if you're out on a trail, it's such a different story, and it's you're you're just it's like not a chore at that stage. You're yeah, you're able to move freely and just cover more ground than if you were hiking. Um, so the running, running piece feels yeah, just like this really cool exploration, I suppose, of where you're at in your landscape and uh the simplicity of it too, where it's pretty much just your body is really special as well. Um, yeah, and I guess sort of the same thing goes for the ski mountaineering, just started from the love of exploring and navigating the outdoors and using my body, and um again living in such a spectacular part of the world, there's endless places to go. And you look at a map and anywhere you see, you could you could go explore somehow, and you'd probably get a lot out of it. And so it's been it's been easy to want to progress in many sports.
SPEAKER_00:When you when you first started skiing, and same with mountain running, like were you good at it right away because you had fitness to translate? I know obviously skiing is a significantly more technical, there's way more to learn. Running is a bit more significantly, I don't want to say easy because that doesn't that's not really the right word, but it's easy to put on a shoes and kind of pair of shoes and kind of figure that out. Were you good at it right away, or did it take time for you to progress and and get good and and learn and get better?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh good question. I mean, it for sure takes time and I'm still trying to progress and get better. Um but I I do think that kind of in the backstory of having a foundation from such a young age, I maybe had a pretty high like level of physical literacy already. Um I had some strong fitness base. And and the other thing with mountain, both mountain running and ski mountaineering is there's certainly like a fear piece to it. Um and it can feel very committing. But I I think I, though I might last lack of self-confidence in other ways, in the confidence in like what I can do in terrain, uh, I think that was fairly high. And so I was able to continue progressing at a rapid rate there. Um, yeah, for instance, like downhill running, I know it can be pretty intimidating for a lot of people, or just being out in the backcountry on your own or or without many people, it can feel more risky, which it is. Uh, but uh we can we can also hold ourselves back by being a little too worried, you know?
SPEAKER_00:That's true. That's true. Was there any like one I looked back in your in your uh results, obviously, but was like there one race that you started doing in mountain running that like got you hooked on the sport that you're like, okay, yeah, this is this is something I want to continue to pursue because I I really enjoy this.
SPEAKER_02:That's a good question. I I went to the world champs many years ago, I forget what year exactly, like 2018 or 2017 or something like that. But I hadn't been doing much mountain running at all. I was living in northern Alberta, which was really flat, and uh I think I did a few road races that summer, and then I unfortunately got a stress reaction in my foot, so I like went into this race totally not trained. Um, and I did the race and It felt okay, but it's uh I'm sure you can relate to this feeling. Like when you show up and you're not really ready at all. Oh yeah. And then you perform and it's like you know it's well below what you're capable of, like you can be proud of it in some ways and sure, oh I did the best for what the like I did what I could on the day, which I do think is a great attitude, but still like you can't be fully well personally, I can't be fully um stoked or satisfied on it because I've you know, you're always still questioning, oh well, what could I do, you know, if I if I really was ready, which that's a whole other conversation of are we ever ready? Anyway, so that race, it was amazing to see the world stage and and just be super inspired by everyone from all around the world. But I I kind of like put out of my mind and uh went down a different career path and was focused on that. So I think the turning point for me was in um 2021, or I believe, uh this local shopping can or skip hill put on a virtual challenge during the pandemic. Um, so it was like a king or queen of the hill. So it was a bracket-style competition, kind of like March Madness. Um, and they only timed like it was only the uphill segment that counted. And I think there were 64 like women and 64 men, and at the end, like it's just whoever has the fastest time that moves on each week. And so that's really what kick started me. I'd never really timed things uphill before. Um, and that's also how I was noticed by my current sponsor, ArcTaryx. So I yeah, I think that that competition is what really kind of was the turning point of oh, hey, this is not only like really, really fun and you enjoy the movement and the hurt and the camaraderie, but also you have some talent and maybe it's worth actually pursuing this a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, that's so interesting. So that's how Arctaryx found you and like scouted you as talent for them. That's so crazy. How did that getting picked up by Arctaryx? Like, how was that? Was it life-changing at all for you? Or was it just like, okay, now I have support to go do these amazing races and do all these things that I would love to do as an athlete? Or was it like another level of like, oh my gosh, this is so cool kind of thing? Like, how was that as far as life-changing for you?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, totally life-changing. Uh, it's something that I had never thought about, you know, like never considered being strong enough to have a sponsorship. Uh, again, that partly comes down to that self-confidence piece, but it just wasn't like a path that I thought that I was capable of or had even considered pursuing. Um, and so for I remember receiving the message and they asked if I had any sponsorship conflicts, and I just burst out laughing, like, wow, that's so cool of you to think that I might have conflicts. Like, no, absolutely not. Um, so yeah, I I think just that that belief that that this company and the individuals working there had in me was so huge and instrumental in me putting a bit more effort into it. Like I would definitely not be where I'm at now if it weren't for that opportunity. Uh, which is it's pretty special. Well, really special.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I have uh, I mean, obviously, I've had quite a few of your teammates on the podcast before. Just the benefits and some of the cool stuff you guys get. Like being able to, I mean, everything from I mean, you could name the list, like not just like gear and everything you get, but also like being able to have um what was Jesse McCauley telling me? I think it was like access to um, I guess like the sports psych and all different kinds of things like you guys get, which is so cool. Uh like it's like I I don't know, I find it very cool or interesting because that's like a real level of professionalism in the sport. Like you are, that's true, you're a professional athlete and you're getting all the perks to help you optimize all of the things that you're doing. And I find that to be like I I I hope I wish all brands would do that and do something similar.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. It's amazing. Certainly fortunate to have that and to have just the wellness piece be at the top of the priority. Of course, they are encouraging of strong results and that sort of thing, but first and foremost, they want us to be well and do well. Um which, yeah, it's really refreshing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Super cool. All right. I wanna I want to shift gears a little bit. If you maybe it was a year ago, maybe less, not so long ago, you stepped away from being a firefighter. Can you can you talk about that like time in your life of being a firefighter and what that meant to you and like what what you did like as a as a career? Talk about that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, of course. Yeah, so I started my fire career doing wildland fire while I was in university. So the summers of that, I went out and worked in the bush all summer. It was an incredible experience. Have met so many amazing people and got to do so many really cool things and give back in a lot of ways. It was a perfect summer job, getting to be physical, be outside and and work with good people. Those are kind of like some of my my top top things in life, using my body being outside and doing that with with good people and working together. So um, yeah, that was sort of the intro. And in that time, I was studying environmental science. So I did a little bit of work with that too. And a few of the guys on my crew were applying for the fire department. So I was like, well, might as well. Like it's free to apply. Um, so I put the name in, and then there was it's many steps. It took uh three years, all for one application between between when I applied and when I started. Um but uh that that was great, you know, it allowed me to live so much life in between, and every step was of course not a guarantee. So I just tried to take it one step at a time. And um, as I progressed and got further along in the process, I became more and more keen on it and more invested. And yeah, it ultimately uh it worked out. So I spent uh four and a half years working for a structural fire department as a full-time professional firefighter, and it was uh a whole lot of things, you know, it was really challenging in some ways, super rewarding in others, uh held me accountable. Um yeah, I I loved many parts of it and being able to serve the community was really special. Um but then these opportunities with sport just started to increase and increase and increase. And it was not easy to make the decision to leave, that's for sure. But uh I also definitely understand that life is short and and that it's not guaranteed. And uh there's so many ways that we can be productive in life and add value to the world and to give back. And so a large hesitation was well, I don't want to leave because I'll be a quitter and I'll be quitting on my community, I'll be quitting on those I work with. They've invested in me, la, I'll be quitting on myself. Um, but more and more I've started to to question that and to realize that we can, you know, have positive impact in so many other ways. And um I can go back to to that career if I want. Uh I yeah, there's there's nothing holding me back. And when I one of the things I I did tell myself was in my class, a lot of most people, I think I was the second youngest, so most people were quite a bit older as they got into the career. And so in that sense, I was like, you know what, you can just like start over. That's fine. You can go and and live this other path that's like pretty cool to be able to do, you know. I'm I feel very fortunate to have, yes, won that lottery ticket and being able to be a structural firefighter, but to have also won this other lottery ticket of having a a body and a mind and these opportunities and and support network that I'm able to pursue sport for at this time of my life.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting, right? I don't know. I feel like uh, and I think a lot of the listeners would probably understand this or or maybe uh connect with this, but like not just in America but worldwide, like we're I think a lot of people are very career-driven to like I pick this one thing and I'm gonna do this one thing for the rest of my life until I retire and then it's over. And it's like I don't know, I I don't like that. I feel like life should be a series of like mini retirements and trying different things and getting a chance to do those things. And I think you're a perfect example of that. Getting you you have this, you know, firefighting is completely different than mountain running and professional skiing. It's like it's it couldn't be further away from it, but it's cool because you're you you know, you have this life and you you transition to do something new as an athlete. Like you said, you can always go back to it, and also you could try new things and other things. I I like that open-mindedness approach to life because um, yeah, when you just try to put something in a box, I just think that uh, you know, people are capable of so many different things, not just one thing, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, and and we change and our circumstances change, and it's there's nothing wrong with staying with a career for your entire life if it fulfills you and um yeah, fulfills your needs and you're happy with it. Um, but there's also I think maybe less shame than there used to be about leaving something and and taking a chance on yourself and trying something new. And um I think that there's so much crossover between sport and life and work and education, you know, like we gain so many skills in everything that we do that can be transferred to everything else that we do, yeah. So it's not it's not a loss. Um yeah, we're just kind of like culmination of all we've done and all of our experience, and that's that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:How did you in this career firefight? Like there obviously there's a substantial degree of danger. There's also danger in mountain running, too. I mean, you live in Canmore, there's grizzly bears, there's all kinds of stuff. What uh we'll talk about grizzly bears later, but like how did you deal with the dangers of that? Um I I think this is more a two-part question. One, how did you deal with the dangers of the profession? But also, um, I'm sure you as a firefighter, at least I know from the firefighters I know down here, um, more of a team kind of thing. Everyone, like there's kind of a it's a big group and you can't let your team members down. It's very important. Like how how how did you deal with that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I almost want to guess what the second part of this question is, but uh it's pretty similar dealing with that risk as it is to dealing with outdoor risk, you know. Uh you don't jump into a burning building without any training, you don't jump in without your proper equipment on, you don't jump in with already making a plan with who you're doing it with, uh and having strong communication. And so, yeah, it you're you're equipped with all these tools to manage the risk and to mitigate danger. And so you shouldn't actually be that scared. Because if you're that scared, you probably shouldn't be there, you know, like it's it's possibly too risky to be there, you know. Maybe it's an imminent structure collapse, and like you're not gonna put the fire out, you gotta get out, and then change your approach. And so you're constantly reevaluating and anchoring in on what the situation's doing to ensure that you and your crew aren't somewhere that you shouldn't be. Um, there's also kind of the the saying that we'll risk a lot to save a lot, but if you're not saving a lot, you shouldn't be risking a lot. Um, and so that's a little bit of a you know, a benchmark, I suppose, too, of there's say a confirmed person trapped in a building that's on fire. Like that is something that you is worth risking a lot because you could save a lot, um, as opposed to you know something that's like lower stakes. There's no sense putting yourself or your crew at at that much more danger if it's like a high likelihood too of something bad happening. Um so yeah, I guess in summary, good training and staying on top of training, uh, not getting complacent is huge. I think that's a really big one. And uh one thing that I learned in my wildfire days was experience does not necessarily uh mean competency, you know, like that those aren't directly related. So just because someone's been doing it for 20 years doesn't mean that like they're better than the person who's been doing it for 10 years. Um yeah, it's just uh it's so different depending on what what experience you have. And I think that not not getting complacent is a big one.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. Yeah, no, and thank you for painting a picture and helping to uh because I don't know, and like helping paint the picture for the audience as well, just because it's I don't know, it's a very unique um thing. And I don't know, like we could talk about running all day and talk about skiing all day, but you know, I think it's also uh you get a lot out of the other things, and I find this to be a very interesting topic. So appreciate that. We're gonna go back to running now. Um I gotta I'm gonna make a left-hand turn and uh I gotta ask you about worlds. Um humble brag, but I had Team Canada in my podium um when I was picking picking teams for the uphill. Um what does it feel like to be like number 10 like in the uphill on the planet, which is kind of cool. One, and two, what was your experience like at Worlds? Did you have a good time this year?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I had a fun time. It was it was so special to be over there with the team and with people from all around the world. It's a really unique event. Um, yeah, I got over there not too far in advance from the race, which can be good and bad. I think in hindsight, I felt super like uh, I don't know, just not fiery in the race, you know. Um and unique type of race too, like fairly short duration-wise. You're only going up, so you're not really having to hold anything back. And as far as what I've been doing lately, it was fairly low angle, you know, a lot of actually running. I think our first kilometer was like a 330k on an incline road, which is pretty fast for an incline on uh on a VK. Um, yeah, so I I wasn't actually feeling that awesome in the race. I wasn't able to just run my race, I think. I was really in my head. I kept looking at my watch, I kept looking around, and uh yeah, just like wasn't the most stoked on myself, I suppose. But um like the body felt pretty good, and uh I think even with the kind of doubts, I was able to throw down a fairly consistent effort throughout. Um so yeah, I'm I'm pretty pleased with it. I mean, it's hard to be sad with a top 10 at World Champs, you know, especially in like a discipline that I didn't feel that I had trained that specifically for. Um but yeah, I think just along the lines of I do want what's the best out of myself, you know. And um, I think maybe because I wasn't having a super like fun race mentally, I was left wanting a bit more. But uh again, that's just something that I'm trying to work on. And what I think what was really cool was finishing third as a team. Um, to see Jade throughout the race was so encouraging, you know, and to know that the other gals are out there working hard. I think that's my favorite part of team type races is you really do feel like it's more than you. And you're able to think of those teammates who are out there working so extremely hard and knowing that every place matters no matter where you're at in the field. Um, yeah, it just like brings out this special, special dynamic, I suppose. So finishing and seeing how closely all four of us came in was super positive. And to put Canada on the map and like getting our first ever team medal at the Mountain Interior Running World Champs is super special and definitely proud of that. And it's something that I I hope will continue to propel Canada and mountain running.
SPEAKER_00:That's so crazy. I I I gotta ask you this. Will we see you? Because that's the thing, like you're you've got a lot of talent for uphill running, and I feel like you race more different stuff between skyrunning and and um more mountain running-based things. Will we be seeing you doing more VKs in the future?
SPEAKER_02:That's a great question. I don't know. I need a life coach. I think I have so many questions right now about what I want to do, what I should do, all that. Um, yeah, part of me wants to like try and do a fast 5K on the road, but the other part of me is like, no, your body probably will break with that. Um and uh yeah, I've 50K has been my longest race, so of course I'm tempted to do something longer. But um, no, right now I I am enjoying the short stuff, and I really enjoyed these like short schemo races that I didn't think I would like. But the anyway, from the like three-minute race to the 40-minute race, I I have really been liking. So yeah, I I wouldn't be opposed to doing some more VKs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'll see. I mean, the talent is there, it's crazy. Like, you're like, I mean, obviously, the proof is in the pudding, like top 10 in the world. That's that's such a especially there was only these are the best people in the world doing this. Um, so yeah, that's that's really cool. I don't know. I get very excited about that stuff. I'm like, wow, like we should definitely uh pursue that. I gotta ask you one more question about the race. You know, from everybody that I talked to in the race, they all said the same thing. Like it just it's so chaotic. Like it bottleneck, and especially there was like a nice big bottleneck. I know from the men's race, at least, there was a lot of discussion around this bottleneck of when you came off the road and onto the trail, people kind of got gapped up there. Did you struggle with that at all, or were you able to kind of find your place pretty easily once you got in the mix?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely a bottleneck. Um, going from this wide open uphill pavement road to like super narrow and steep and rocky, and there's this like staircase at the start. Um definitely felt panicky, like it didn't feel like you could just relax into it. But I I was able to get a pretty strong start, possibly too strong, um, on the road. But I knew that that was important to get a good spot. And then um yeah, I had to take like a few elbows in the chest or whatever, but I I didn't find it was too bad in the bottleneck, but again, I I went out like hard enough to not be stuck behind.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I was I was amazed. I lurked your strava. You were dropping like 550, 530 gaps on there, and I was like, yo, that's that's pretty fast. You were moving. So yeah, it's crazy how fast that race starts. Um and just what a consistent uh finish. So very cool. Congratulations to you. Um I do want to talk a little bit about Speed Goat too. I gotta, I gotta, I was so intrigued by this year because three women went under the course record. Um, you of course, um, you know, uh so like it was just such an amazing race to follow along this year. That's a tough race. And this was, I think, your first time running it, right? You nailed it kind of the first time. Um what were your thoughts on that? Like, will you go back to that race and try and win it? Or is it are you a one and done for Speed Goat?
SPEAKER_02:Oh no, I I would certainly consider going back. I did enjoy it. It's a beautiful course, and I it was it's at elevation, which adds an element and can be really hard and then has a decent amount of birth. But um, and I I guess anytime that a course is hosted at a ski hill, I'm a little hesitant because running only ski hills doesn't feel quite as fun and wild, but the course is phenomenal. You've got some like a little bit technical, not as technical as skyrunning, of course, but you cover some some cool terrain and get a lot of really great views. Um, and I really enjoyed the atmosphere. So no, I I'm not opposed to going back, but yeah, it's definitely a a bit of a grind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's you and Malle Noise that like seem to have that course figured out. And it's uh it's a I mean, it's just it seems to eat people alive, like for some reason. People don't do very well uh in that race. What the other thing I was amazed at too is like I I um I think it was on I think Koros did a post with you uh on like heart rate zones. Um and you were able to keep like how the hell did you keep yourself in zone two for five and a half hours and not like let your heart rate spike? Like you were so consistent and able to keep yourself within the heart rate zone. I find that incredibly impressive to not like get like ubrists and you know have to like try and catch someone or or you know spike your heart rate and things like that.
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. Wow, that's that's uh attention to detail looking into those stats. Um yeah, I that's funny, I didn't I hadn't even looked at that that critically. But um that's partly because I only kind of recently have started using a watch. I used to just use a Casio all the time, or not even. Um, and so I think that that has helped immensely because I'm so used to just going by feel and knowing that that race was the longest distance race I'd done, plus it had quite a lot of vert, plus it's at altitude, plus it was hot, you know, there's all these factors. I knew that there'd be so much time to go hard and go fast if I was feeling good in like the second half or the final third or even the final descent. And yeah, I guess just like through some experience, I've learned that it can be super detrimental to go out too hard. Um, another I I think thing that helped in this race was I hadn't had much solid training, and so I went from finishing schemo like end of April and then dealt with some kind of nasty Achilles stuff because in the winter I didn't really run that much because it was so much skiing and it's snowy everywhere, la-da-da. And then you get back to running and your body's like, okay, hang on. I know you've got the fitness, but actually, structurally, we're not ready for this. Um, so yeah, my my training leading into speed goat, I wasn't that confident on. I think I had run um 22 kilometers was my longest run leading into the 50k. Um, and so that I again coming back to this lack of confidence, but I think that actually helped me pace the race, you know. Like I started off and was just super chill. I a large part of me thought that I actually wouldn't finish the race. Um, and so I was just going out and trying to not get too stressed, trying to stay relaxed. I was chatting with people on the whole first climb, um, and just taking it kind of one step at a time. And that that pacing, I guess, helped keep my heart rate low and and keep me able to stay consistent throughout the the duration of the six hours.
SPEAKER_00:Yo, I'm astonished. That's crazy. Especially because I don't know, like I think like especially on the climbs at altitude to keep your heart rate that like keep your like just keep things in check. Like I one of the things I think about that race is what you've said, and I think to nail it correctly, you just can't go too hard. Like you have to find that like a rhythm more or less um for the ascent and for the the for uh running downhill as well. So super interesting. Um yeah, so it's interesting. So you will go back, or at some point in time, possibly, just because I don't know. I feel like you know, with the background that you had on there, you know, to go back and you could probably run another amazing time. So that'd be cool to see you back there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks. Uh no, it's certainly on the radar. I don't know what this next season will we'll have in store, but uh I I won't write off Speed Goat, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, on that top on that topic, I think the World Skyrunner series drops her calendar tonight or tomorrow. I think we're supposed to know more, something like that. I don't know. Are you aware of this? I have I've just I I try to keep uh keep tabs on the sport. I don't know too much, but yay.
SPEAKER_02:I uh I haven't I don't have my calendar marked with it, but uh I will I will be keeping an eye on that. Um I opted to not do the Sky Running World Series this past season, just too many races. Um yeah, with five races scoring points plus the finale, and pretty much all of them being really far travel. Um it wasn't wasn't in the cards for me. So we'll see uh what the rules are for this upcoming season. I do love the sky running races, so I would consider doing the series again, but yeah, I would just prefer if it was fewer races.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. Uh what I was kind of threading the needle with on that was uh Minotaur, because it's kind of a background backyard race for you. You're obviously a former champion, you've been on the podium twice now. Like, what does that race mean to you? It's got to be very special, especially because it's it's like kind of right there for you.
SPEAKER_02:Oh gosh, yeah, it's it's as you said, very special. It feels like such a community race. It's amazing what the organizers have done. They've like built the trails themselves by hand. It's so cool. Um yeah, I believe actually this year it will not be on the World Series, but it is going to be the Canadian uh Skyrunning Championships, I think. And it's like a still has the token of being uh International Federation of Skyrunning or something like that. Um, and they've also added a VK, so they've got they have the VK, the mini tar that's a 10K, and then the Minotaur, which is the 30 something K. Um, so in theory you could do the triple crown now, which is kind of cool. Um, yeah, no, it's I raced it three times, and every time I learn so much more about it and about myself, and it's that to me is what skyrunning and mountain running is. You know, it's going up and down gnarly terrain, being kind of like out there. You really feel like you're in the wild on that course and you're on some fairly narrow ridges and doing actual scree running. Um yeah, it's it's a really, really special course. I encourage anyone who's able to make it out for it. It's such a special feel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And very commute, I think the community aspect of it too is super special. Like I've communicated with the race directors in the past for like start lists and things like that to do race previews, and they're always so kind and inviting and like super nice about it. Like, I don't know. Everybody is just um everybody I've interacted with at that race has just been so kind. So yeah, it's uh and the course, I mean, I think it was Jackson that told me, like, I think you just said something along the lines of like it was hand built. Like it sounds like they built that course for that race, more or less. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly that's so crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's so crazy, and the passion that went into it, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was bummed it was uh uh it was uh canceled this year. My buddy was literally getting on his plane to to fly out there to go do the race, and literally got the notification as he's getting on the plane that it was cancelled. It was like, ah, that's that's a bummer. So hopefully they're able to hold it this year.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I hope so too. Yeah, we were all bummed, of course, at the time that we heard the news. I was on a rope swing with uh some friends, one from who came from Norway for the series. Um, but yeah, it's uh it's a tricky time in the mountains here. I mean, any time of year, but June, like as what happened, we got a huge snowstorm and they made the right call canceling it. It would have been not good out there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh yeah. No, see, especially after seeing some of the photos, was like, oh my gosh. Like it's one thing for the elites to be out there, it's a whole other thing for you know, just for a whole giant group of people, and that just creates a yeah, if people need to be rescued, it just it just creates a mess. It's not good. Um, yeah, it's it's it's a weird thing, like holding uh races on mountains and stuff like that. Like I'm I I am affiliated with Pikes Peak, and it's always an interesting conversation thinking about like we send people on a 14,000 foot mountain up 13 and a half miles and then down, and it's like the rescue that goes involved. It's always like such an interesting thing with uh trying to figure out logistics and stuff like that. It's uh big time, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so much goes on behind the scenes. I that's a race that I want to do.
SPEAKER_00:Really? Oh, well, hey, there's no worlds this year. If you're interested, let me know. We'll you're we'll put you right on the start list. Like I'll give you an entry now. When is it? Uh it's gonna be September, whatever that Saturday is, September 20th or 21st in 2026, whatever that that's at like the second to last Saturday in September for the ascent, and then the the marathon will be on Sunday.
SPEAKER_01:So I think the ascent sounds more fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh, I especially for someone like you with the vertical. Yes, I agree. I agree. Now we'll uh we'll be in touch about that. We'll talk about that more. Um I gotta ask you about the grizzly bear situation. Um, us in the lower 48, particularly Coloradans, like like we don't have grizzly bears where we are. Um terrifying me on the trails. Like every time I go to Wyoming, I'm always like looking over my shoulders. It seems to be like a normal thing for you guys. So like is that like just a common place, like having the bears hanging out like at that like that part?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's uh it's something that we're all aware of and that we all prep for, you know. Same with if you're heading up high, you'll throw in an extra layer or you'll check the forecast, or if you're gonna run at night, you'll bring headlamp. Um it's just one other kind of factor to prepare for. Um yeah. So whether it's bringing bear spray, whether it's sometimes you only run with a group of four or more, uh, sometimes you just don't go in certain areas, whether that's because they have officially been closed or because you're just aware of bear activity in that area. Um yeah, so it's a it's a factor, but it's not something that we're like terrified of here, you know. Of course, some people are more scared than others. And I do have friends who have unfortunately been attacked by grizzly bears or have had cougar encounters. So it's uh it's no joke, real deal. But um, you know, like any hazard in the mountains, you can do what you can to avoid it and prepare for it. And uh it's your choice then if you accept that risk or not.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. What is your favorite animal? I I've I've never asked anybody this question on the podcast yet. I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
SPEAKER_02:The wolverine is my favorite animal.
SPEAKER_00:I have a buddy that's seen one. Have you ever seen one?
SPEAKER_02:I saw one this spring. What?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, tell the story.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was fantastic. Okay, it's actually a fun story. So it was um late April, like after the schemo season was done. I went uh with my buddy to do try and ski Mount Joffrey, which is a tall mountain in the Rockies. Um so like I forget what time we left town, 3 a.m. or 2 a.m. or something, and then you're walking because there's not enough snow down low. We tried to skate ski across the lake, but it had just thawed, so we would have drowned, which wouldn't have been good. So we instead ran across and um then skied up and we encountered just some like unfavorable snow conditions. So we made the call to turn around and still had a great day out. But as we were coming back across like a smaller lake that was still frozen, I was slightly ahead and I saw this brown lump because at that point the sun had risen, so there was daylight. And I was like, okay, that's either a a really square rock that had fallen, like with some avalanche debris, could be an animal though, like it could be a bear, maybe. And then it started to move, and I was like, no way, I think that's a wolverine. Um, but I've like marmots, we have a lot of up here too that are pretty big and they're kind of like also slinky close to the rent ground. So sometimes I've tried to trick myself that a marmot is a wolverine, but um, yeah, this one kind of went behind some avalanche debris and then it came out behind. And then by that point I knew for sure it was a Wolverine and just got to watch it for about five minutes running up this snow slope. It would run for 30 seconds, stop around, look at us, keep running, stop, kind of look, keep running. Um, and just the like the fitness that this animal displayed when it wasn't really under threat, you know, like we weren't actively chasing it, and it wasn't actively chasing anything, and for it to just like willingly run up this slope for a long time was so cool.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, that's I'm so jealous. That is like such like that's like a 10 out of 10 experience because they're so rare, apparently. Like I have a uh a friend that saw one in the Wind River range. He thought it was a black lab. Um and he thought it was a dog. But like there's like seven of them, apparently. There's like seven, seven to fifty fifty, you don't really know, um, in Wyoming. But I guess you guys have more of them in BC. Or do you have I guess there's a a decent amount of them, or is it like they're super rare up there too?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'd say they're still pretty rare and definitely elusive. Um, I think their population is on the decline, but we do have still a fair number, and actually, like far north in Alberta, in a place called High Level has a lot of Wolverines, so not really where you'd expect them. But um, no, it's it's my first time seeing them. I have seen tracks a few times, but they're I've seen more cougar, more grizzly bear, definitely more goats, more wolves, more coyotes, all of that than I have wolverines. So pretty rare.
SPEAKER_00:That's so cool. I'm so jealous. That's yeah, like I said, 10 out of 10. That's all life, life experience. Did you get any photos of it or was it too far away?
SPEAKER_02:No, actually, I don't think I I don't think I bothered because I just wanted to watch it.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Those types of experiences, it's like I don't need to pull out the phone. It's like by the way, just yeah, take it in. Super cool. Awesome. Well, listen, Emma, I I wanna we're at about the hour mark now. I wanted to say thank you so much for your time. This is a super fun chat. And um, yeah, I'm wishing you the best of luck in your offseason. Decompress, chill, enjoy yourself, and uh, I can't wait to see what you do in 2026. Hopefully, more VKs. We'll talk about that at another time. Um, and we'll be in touch about Pike's Peak. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah, that sounds good. Well, thank you so much for the chat. It was really, really lovely to hear from you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, appreciate it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Hey.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome, super cool. All right, we're done recording. Thank you so much. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. I want to thank Emma so much for coming onto the show. Uh, always a fun conversation. Uh, and I'm just really appreciative of her time and telling her story. Guys, you can find her on Instagram, give her a follow, and that's just gonna be simply at MCook Clark. It's gonna be linked in the show notes. Hop on Instagram, give her a follow, and you can learn about all the fun different endeavors in the mountains that she's doing. Uh, things like schemo, things like mountain running, um, super fun follow. So, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Uh, it is uh a pleasure to continue to keep doing this. Uh, we've got a lot of fun things coming down the pipeline, lots of good announcements soon that I'm super excited about. Um, if you have been enjoying the podcast, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube if you haven't already. And uh very last but not least, we're trying to grow that uh YouTube uh page. So hit the subscribe button on YouTube and you can watch these episodes in 4K video. Um yeah, super appreciative. Guys, we're we're coming down to the end of the year, and uh I can't believe it's almost over. It's pretty crazy. So thanks for tuning in. Uh, lots to come this week and beyond the bent.
