The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#148 - Mathias Eichler, RD Beast of Big Creek
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A world-level skyrace is returning to U.S. soil, and the path runs straight up a rugged Olympic Mountains summit. We sit down with race director and media voice Mathias Eichler to unpack how Beast of Big Creek became the only U.S. stop on the Skyrunner World Series, what ISF course certification really requires, and how you scale a steep, technical route without breaking the wilderness that makes it magic.
Mathias shares the full arc: inheriting a beloved local race, modernizing without losing soul, and navigating permits, fires, trail capacity, and access in a part of Washington that’s breathtaking and stubbornly off-grid. We get practical about logistics—Olympia as a pre-race hub, ferry approaches from Seattle, limited parking, and why camping might be a feature, not a bug. Along the way, we zoom out to the sport’s bigger picture: why short trail and VK-style events thrive in Europe, how UTMB, Golden Trail, and Cirque each shape the calendar, and what it will take to build a real fan culture here—cheer zones, better visuals, and honest, story-driven media.
Expect sharp takes on world championship timing, sponsor incentives, and how to film races that live above treeline. If you care about the future of American skyrunning—course design, elite fields, and spectator experience—this conversation is your field guide to what’s next and what’s possible.
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Follow Mathias on IG - @einmaleins / @electric.cable.car
Follow The Beast of Big Creek on IG for Updates - @beastofbigcreek
Listen to Mathias on Electric Cable Car - @electriccablecar
Check out Electric Cable Car Online - @electriccablecar
Check out the Beast of Big Creek online - @beastofbigcreek
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
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Meet Matthias And The Big News
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oreal. And today I'm so excited to welcome Matthias Eichler to the show. Matthias is a lot of things in our sport. He is involved with the Trail Running Film Festival. He is a race director. He is a podcast host. Most notably, the podcast host of the single track electric cable car show. And most recently, um, he is now the race director of the only World Skyrunning Series race in the United States of America, uh, the Beast of Big Creek. So we had to hear from Matias. We brought him on the show to uh have a conversation all about the race. We talked and got into um pretty deeply into the race itself, um, kind of the statistics on it, the history of the race itself, talked about the area and the location, how to get out there. Um, we got into what it takes to bring a skyrunning race to the United States. As we all know, uh there's been quite a significant layoff since 2019, and Matias was the first one uh to bring one back, which is pretty exciting. Um we talked about the timing of that, we talked about what it was like getting courses or a course ISF certified, which is the International Skyrunning um uh group. And uh yeah, this was a fun one. I really want to thank Matias for coming on the show as a podcast host as well. I had to uh pick his brain on the sport and uh talk about the fandom. Uh of course, I always want to hear about what we can do to build more fandom in the in our great sport of short trail. Um, and yeah, this was a good one. So without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one. Matthias Eichler. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to have had this conversation, or I'm excited to finally do this conversation. Sorry for the whirlwind it's been the last couple days, but I'm glad we were able to put this together and talk sky running in the United States and just uh kind of just how the monument uh monumental kind of that is for the sport, kind of uh getting something on the world scene since uh playing that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Lots of background work, lots of behind the scenes conversations, and I think hitting it right at the perfect moment in time when people are looking for something like that.
Origin Story And Many Hats
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. Well, as we get started, maybe uh talk about your background, talk about your podcast that you you uh manage, talk about talk about what you do as a race director. Maybe give the audience your background.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, how how long you should podcast usually because this might take a while. I'm I'm kidding. I yeah. I'm originally from Germany. I've lived here now longer in the US on the West Coast than I have in Germany, if I really think about it. Um so yeah, I've been over here my most of my adult life. I used to have a design shop, then joined this with another tech company while I was working with them. I sort of got a sense that they weren't really growing and moving in the way that I wanted to. So I started dabbling in my passion, which is trying to work in the outdoor industry again, and um wanted to connect with real people, not just sell enterprise software type scenario. And so um started something called the outdoor society. We sought calendars and road trip reports and stuff. That led to me discovering trail running, that led to us starting a podcast called Single Track, way, way, way, way before the other single track podcast started. And then I um th throughout all of that I got into race directing, wanted to bring trail races away from the super hard to get to gnarly trailheads that require you four by four to drive in the middle of the woods type deal. And so I started some really accessible trail races, which um, you know, the combination of being me knowing how to build websites and sort of promote my own events got me in contact with the trailrunning film festival, started working for them, and now sort of I'm wearing all these hats. I do a podcast, I am a race director, I um run the trailrunning film festival, and so sometimes it's really hard for me to sort of introduce myself. But as part of my trail running, I ran way back when, in like 2016 or so, I ran Beast of Big Creek, which is a trail race on one of my favorite mountains, sort of our home mountain here in the Pacific Northwest Olympia area where I'm from, Mount Eleanor. Totally loved the race, got to know the race director, and um he retired and sort of was wanting to just let the race go away. And uh back when people were still on Facebook, I got a note on Facebook, and somebody was saying, dude, you gotta um jump in and take over Beast of Big Creek that race because you know how it is with these kind of races, getting the permit with the National Forest Service is key, and being able to um have that continuation of that relationship is super super important in order to just get have the most smoothest transition. So I asked them if I could take it over. I was able to get the permit, and so I've been running Beast of Big Creek now for four years, and here we are, four years later, and it's uh um uh the only North American race on the Skyrunner World Series for 2026. Sorry, that was long-winded.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, amazing, amazing. I uh first of all, uh first and foremost, I'm so excited that we finally have a world skyrunner race back in the States for the first time in a long time. Can you talk about how the I mean, I feel like Beast obviously was an I is an ISF certified course. Talk about how it it came to be that this was the selected race.
Reviving Beast Of Big Creek
SPEAKER_01Whew, okay. So here's another endlessly long monologue. Um so one thing that was fun and challenging with Beast of Big Creek when I took it over was that the race director very much ran it as a fun community run. There was barely an aid station, some water and some gel sort of in the middle of the trailhead. Um and you know, entry fees for 25 bucks. And when I took it over, I was like, you know, I need to find a way of turning this into a real race. But I can't do that overnight. I can't just like, you know, quadruple the entry fee and stuff. Because at that point nobody knew what this race was like. And what was the interesting juxtaposition that while it was really run as these like grassroots community event, sort of born out of a cross-country coach in the area, sort of um having his kids out running the event type deal, um, they promoted they back then. I dug through the old Facebook pages that they had up when I was looking for results, and I found that way back then they were already sharing clips of Sagama and Sierra Sonale with this idea of this is a real mountain race. Beast of Big Creek has everything that it needs, um, other than a you know a mountain resort village in at a start and finish line. But essentially has everything to make it a real hard sky race, mountain race, right? And so I was really inspired by this. And as I was trying to figure out how do you uh market an event that on one side has been around for 12 years at that point, but on the other side is not really grown beyond uh regional recognition. I looked at different associations and partnerships and realized that I could get the certified course designation. And the certified course designation with the Sky uh International Skyrunner Federation is an interesting thing because that's not something you can just buy yourself into if you're any race. You really have to qualify in terms of terrain and steepness and elevation and altitude and all of these things combined. And once I sort of plucked my information in and realized that I wasn't just applying to join, you know, like a UTMB index race, which pretty much anybody can be if it's fits a certain distance, right? That I could get this certified label which would make it really special. I was super stoked on it and you know went all in on it.
SPEAKER_02I mean that's amazing. Can you can you go into I want to peel back the details? And I mean, I don't want to like you don't have to tell costs, but I want to hear like all the rigmarole of because that's the thing. From all I know, and I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm pretty novice in this, just starting to figure out who the players are, still figuring out how to under you know understand uh really the relationship between the World Skyrunner Series and the ISF and things like that. But with US uh with the World Skyrunner Series really leaving the United States in 2019, we had obviously USA Skyrunning, um, and there was kind of a uh or sky USA Sky Running series, if you will, up until 2019. With that all kind of going away at that time, what was the the process like to try and uh like was it immensely costly to try to get the course certified? Did you have to reach out to the ISF and try to understand uh what they want out of your course? Or what what kind of hoops did you have? I'm just trying to understand the hoops you had to jump through together.
Getting ISF Certified
SPEAKER_01You know, uh skyrunning is a European sport born out of a European mindset of how these certifications work, how the licensing works, and um I I believe, and this is I wasn't really in the sport, so I'm this is like you know, second, third hand. But I believe one of the reasons why it failed in the US is because of sort of a lack of understanding of how these uh uh trail races are organized in the US. Meaning in what you have in Europe is you have a mountain valley somewhere in the Alps or in the Pyrenees, and um they have hundreds, thousands of hotel beds and restaurant um seats that need to fill increasingly with climate change. Every uh town needs to be a four-season resort and can't just survive off of a couple ski lifts in the wintertime. And so there is a tourism agency that likes to have these events in town, and they have tens of thousands of euros at their disposal because their anticipation is that they're gonna fill you know hundreds, thousands of hotel beds for a weekend in the summer when usually you wouldn't get that many people coming to town, other than maybe for some summer hiking or mountain biking or something, right? And so I think that's the mindset on which um the organization is sort of has approached global expansion, both on the federation side and on um the Skyrunner World Series, which is essentially a licensed product that is owned by a for-profit corporation that essentially just tries to make money off of it. International Skyrunning Federation is a federation, non-profit essentially, right? That just owns the um the label and tries to be a shepherd of the idea of the sport, right? And um, but they themselves don't put on the world series, world series owned by uh an organ a group called Skyman and out of Switzerland. And so um, so what I think the reason what fail why it failed initially in 2019 was the fact that um this European mindset of hey, if you want to join our series, you have to pay thousands of dollars because clearly your local tourism board can afford these thousands of dollars because look at all the people that we're bringing in town and people people coming on summer vacation, bringing their families, and look at all this activity. I mean, if you've been in UTMB, then you know why and how that were and been um Chamonix during UTMB week, then you know why this works and how this works, right? I mean Chamonix makes I don't know millions of dollars from uh this event every week, right? And so that's that's the concept, and that's I think why it failed. And then when I reached out, it probably I was a stroke of luck. They had sort of realized they'd they had completely lost North America with these sort of expectations completely adjusted everything that they were the way they were doing it, and all of a sudden getting a certified course was very cheap. It was absolutely I mean, aside from getting it on paper, right, where you essentially have to put your GPS coordinates in and make sure that you know they may adjust, make sure that the grade is steep enough and has the right kind of thing. And uh, you know, Peace of Big Creek barely scrapes in because I'm on the West Coast, I start at sea level, right? I don't go up very high, there's no glacial travel, there is no big rope courses, which you see in some of the big sky race courses. So I I got in and got lucky that they just sort of reset their thing, and then I stuck with it because it was worth it for me to have that label and designation.
SPEAKER_02So cool. I I mean it's super exciting, and uh, I mean the course is absolutely stunning from uh and there hasn't been too many pictures like circulating around, but I feel like there has been enough of them to build some serious hype. Um in fact, the original gentleman that started it, his son is a follower of the podcast and an athlete in the sport, and he had sent me some pictures of the course and spoke about it, and uh had nothing but amazing things to say. So it it's uh I I just keep coming back to the stoke is high. I do want to go back in time a little bit. I'm curious about this to to address uh I feel like the thing with skyrunning in uh in the United States and what Ryan Kerrigan continues to send in emails to me and is a lot of education. I feel like the constant conversation is education, a lack of education. And I think it's gonna take a lot because as we I feel like as the as Golden Trail series continues to grow and develop, I feel like all the talent goes to the Golden Trail series coming out of the United States. So if there's gonna be something to compete, which would be the World Skyrunner series, and uh and has competed in years, like I feel like 2023 was very competitive, 2024 a little bit as well, um, when Merrill kind of came under the scene. But I feel like the education aspect and having more conversations around the technicality of the courses and and that it's something different and offers something more unique than, say, Golden Trail that's more of a cross-country style race. Um, I think that gets more to uh the meat and bones of providing an alternative than just going to Golden Trail, if you will.
Why Skyrunning Stalled In America
SPEAKER_01Well, I think this is the interesting other side of the story, right? I've sort of spoken a lot about how Europeans see the sport and how they sort of fail to account for the way sports trail running is sort of set up in the US, right? Let's look at this other side. You've got races in the US that um, by and large, from a historical point of view, come out of this concept of trail means ultra means 100 miles. Everybody has that mindset of you gotta sort of anchor your event around a hundred mile distance, around a 50 mile distance, around a 50k distance, right? In fact, I've got race directors coming to me before this announcement, and they said, um, what can you do to beast in order to make it a 25k? And then could you run a double so it's a 50k? Then it would be a real trail race, right? And so I think that there's I know I know I'm like, well, the only thing the the mountain tops out, I'm running to the summit. So the only way I could sort of add mileage is arbitrarily sort of add flat stuff on the road, which could completely defeat the purpose, right? So anyway, but I think it speaks to the mindset, right? That if you run trail, you run ultra, and you go long, and um, so that's one side to it, and then the permitting side is just the other side to it, right? That um most of the really cool courses or routes or trails or so, right? Can't be that because um because of permitting, right? And we're only now slowly Cirque Series does that is opening up ski resorts to the idea of races, right? And you look at many of the big ski resorts, you look at um Whistler, you look at Olympic Valley, and they are running out of trail, right? I think if you would talk to them, you know, I mean obviously broken air is doing well for itself, right? But I think you know, putting words into their brains, I have no idea if they really think about it. But I think there's a reality that you run out of trails on ski resorts surrounded by national parks or wilderness boundaries, and they can't do the classic, they can't get a hundred mile or onto a ski resort. Almost nowhere in the US is that possible without running loops, right? And so you're forced to go shorter. And how do you go shorter with a specific designation without fitting it into that 50k, 25k sort of rigid format that we've grown accustomed to, right? And Beast has always been about running up to the summit and back down and being super steep and foregoing any additional flat stuff in order to just climb.
SPEAKER_02I I gotta ask you this, and this has always perplexed me as someone that's very specific to short trail in the sport. It's and maybe with like your because you have a European background, like because short trail is so it's like so such commonplace and such a popular thing with a fan base in in Europe. Dude, why is it in the United States we are so ultra focused? I don't understand that for the life of me. We care so much about arbitrarily contrived things, like this has to be a hundred miles and this has to be this.
SPEAKER_01And well, if it's I mean yeah, sorry Western Western states. Yeah I mean it it it comes down from the history that you want to run a hundred miles. And I I you know I'm not dissing Western states for it. I just think that's that's sort of the reality. That that trail is born in the US out of ultrarunning, out of the idea of can I reach this somewhat arbitrary goal? It wasn't so much about, man, I'm sitting in Olympic Valley. I really want to go to Auburn, right? I mean, it it wasn't like that that somebody decided that this was the most beautiful line, right? It was about um a very specific um you know goal to reach hundred miles because that looked cool. And I think a lot of this, you know, distances are longer. Um it's it's hard to find routes and permits, like in Europe in the Alps, where you've got you know 100 plus year history of tourism and mountain sports. You can build an event just around let's run around this mountain and let's um run up to this summit or whatever it is, right? And the destination is the reason for the event to exist and not the specific mileage. I don't know where our sport would be if UTMB, the um Ultra Tour de Mont Blanc, wouldn't be almost exactly 100 miles. What happens if it would be 110k or something, right? I mean it would our sport would have sort of you know it developed differently. But I just think people drive f longer distances for a race. Like I would to be quite honest, I have a hard time. Would I sit on a plane and get a rental car and four days of hotel room to run a 7k circu series race somewhere in the middle of nowhere? Like I do. I I I mean you know, but I think I feel like there is sort of an understanding, like if I already do this, right, then it need I need to run through the night, I need to, you know, you know, make the most out of whatever, right? So I think that's where some of this comes from. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you think what's your thoughts on the fan base? Like, and I feel like you, as a race director with a world skyrunner race now in the United States, you have to have some thoughts on this. Like, like, how do we, and I I mean like us also as media persons in the sport, for more specific to short trail, how do we continue to build a fan base or really do our best to build a short trail fan base in the United States?
Education, Golden Trail, And Identity
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that uh two fan bases to consider, right? One is live fans actually on the trail. And the challenge with that is just always, again, that our races are super remote, they're super far away from epicenters of vacation. I can take my family to any race in Europe and they have the greatest time, probably greater than me, suffering on the trail, because there is all this activity for them, right? If I tell my family that I want to run a race in, you know, the middle of nowhere, then they're like, well, you're going by yourself, right? And I think then I don't have spectators and I don't have fans on the course. Wherein, I mean, if you've run in Europe and you've had this finish line shoot experience in the center of town, then you know that that comes so natural and is so perfect and so ideal, and it's sort of impossible to replicate just because we don't run into town centers um for for our races, you know, most of the time. Now, when it comes to spectators on film, Sky Runner, skyrunning has the absolute best product, right? There is no product that looks sexier when it comes to running than people running above tree line with you know glacier-carved mountains in the background. Like these races that are sort of just through dusty forests, yeah. I mean, you can't capture them via drones, and the pictures aren't really that exciting, and during the nighttime you don't see anything, right? Where in skyrunning is above tree line, is inspiring. It comes as close to the sexiness of paragliding and um downhill skiing as as uh sport on two feet can get, right? So cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so this is my this is my thing. So I I feel like I sound like a broken record on this. I talk about this on the podcast all the time. I'm on the board of Pike to Peak, and dude, one of the conversations I have in board board meetings all the time is how in the world can we get more people on the trails, create cheer zones, have get get the get the community involved, get the fan base involved. And I feel like it's lost on me. I feel like people look at me like I have three heads. Just because it's I feel like it's just in the States, it's not a thing yet. Like we have to really build that culture and really try to instill that culture into races. I think Broken Arrow does a good job. I mean, they seem to get plenty of people on course, and they're pretty cool about having people on their courses. The Rut does a great job. Cirque series, I mean, I've raced pretty much all of them at this point, and there are people on course cheering, um, more or less on different sections, depending on where the lifts are and stuff like that. Um it depends. But I think that we we all, as not just media people, race directors, people in the sport can do a better job at being at these races and and really having the cowbells and going wild and like making it a big party, you know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I agree, right? But it's also something that is really hard to manufacture, right? Um I mean, when you sit in downtown Chamonix in an outdoor restaurant and TDS runners come by and you've got volunteers because the TDS runners come from the opposite direction, so they don't go that along the main finish chute. And so as they come through, there are volunteers who have cowbells that basically tell everyone who sits outside for their evening pizza or uh rocklet that um that runners come through, right? And everybody in the outdoor restaurant just uh stands up and claps for them. That's an experience, right? I mean that. No, we do, we need that, but we what we need it what you know, the sort of so you know, in a past life I've been very involved in um urban planning and placemaking, and there's this thing called the power of ten, right? In order to get people to be excited about being in a place, you need the power of ten, which means ten things. You can't just put a a trail there, then well, some people who like hiking there will be. But a trail and a park bench is good. Maybe a park bench and a garbage can next to it, maybe some light, or maybe an awning or something, right? Or maybe a little cafe where people can have you know a piece of cake and uh you know a cafe, uh coffee or something, right? So you you need to create multiple incentives for people to want to be. And I just think that I I I I want this to happen, but I'm also very realistic, right? I mean, Beast of Big Creek is in a very remote location of the US. It's very far from a major city. The campground doesn't have, I mean, it has running water, but it only has you know national forests, um, you know, um dry toilets, and there is no cell coverage, right? To build the infrastructure up um will to to replicate that European thing is uh nearly impossible, right? You need to approach it differently, and I don't know, you know, get people excited about camping and stuff, right? Doable, absolutely, right? But it's um yeah, it's just a different beast.
Ultra Culture vs Short Trail
SPEAKER_02Let's let's pivot a little bit. I want to talk about that aspect of the race. Can you can you talk about the Olympic Peninsula? I was listening to uh it's funny, a single track sometime recently, and I almost feel like Jeff um uh what's his name? Uh forget his last name all the time. One of their co-hosts, Jeff Colt, I'm sorry, um, he kind of knew. He said something about like, why don't we just do worlds on the Olympic Peninsula? And I was like, Olympic peninsula, that's such a random place. Why would you talk about that? So I almost wonder if he kind of had an idea or heads up that we were gonna get a world like world level race uh out uh out in the Olympic Peninsula. Talk about the beauty, talk about the remoteness, talk about the area and what it's like to run out there.
SPEAKER_01Well, the Olympic Peninsula is um I I mean it's a it's a super special place, but I think it flies under the radar because most trails start more or less at sea level, right? So you don't get this classic mountain feel that you would get. In fact, I think many of the towns in the area, Port Angeles and Huttsboard or so, they're torn because on one side they have this outdoor mountain national park culture when it comes to tourism, but then they're right along the water, and so they have this whole boating and being along the water and fishing village type sort of thing when it comes to who should we attract from a tourism point of view, right? And so Olympic National Park, right? I mean, this is a funny thing. There's an Olympic peninsula, an Olympic National Park, and Olympic mountains, and they're all sort of overlapping, but they're not all like all in the same territory. Um, so the Olympic National Park um prides itself with also having beach access and all this, and in the southeast corner of the Olympic peninsula, Olympic mountains, uh the Olympic mountain range of the brothers and Mount Eleanor and Mount Washington. And um, it's sort of a forgotten place. Most people go to the coast, go to the whole rainforest, go to that area. So tourists don't really go to this large area called Staircase, and there's a Lake Cushman. I mean, there's so many different kinds of areas. It's beautiful, it's 45 minutes from where I live. It's sort of my go-to home mountain. It had a huge wildfire this summer. That's why my race was canceled. Um, and Skyrunner World Series announced my race um as part of the series, and my website still says cancelled for 25. I'm like, hey guys, how about giving me like I don't know, 24 hours heads up and I switch something over on the website so it doesn't look like I'm like way behind here. So um so you know, super steep trails because it um I don't know, they're like you know, old mining trails and stuff, right? And one thing that's unique about Mount Eleanor, particularly, is that it actually a hiking trail that goes directly to the summit. Like Mount Washington is right next to it, and there's no real trail, there's a lot of off-travel, off-trail travel where it's like head walls and stuff. Eleanor is a hiking trail, but for most people they completely underestimated it because it goes above tree line, because there's exposure, because there's this like rocky boulder field that you kind of sort of have to hop through and stuff. And so it's a super popular hike for uh folks in western Washington on a sunny day towards the south. You see all the volcanoes. Like if you have a beautiful sunny day, yeah, you can see Rainier and St. Helens and Mount Hood and stuff. It's absolutely gorgeous view. And then you turn around and you don't really see this until you sort of make your way up to the summit and you look north and you see the entire interior of the Olympic Mountains with Mount Olympus in the center, glacier filled and stuff. And so it's just a massively special place, right? But it's sort of carved between national forests and national parks, so jurisdiction-wise, and it's not developed, there is no lodge, there is no um sort of big infrastructure, right? And even most people who come to the area for vacation, they come there to just hang out at the lake. They're not even going up in the mountains.
SPEAKER_02How tricky of it and how much of a pain in the ass is it to like you can explain this because I know nothing about permitting other than what my race director friends have kind of told me and and how this works. But once you have the permit, obviously it's it's a lot easier to keep it than to get a whole new one. How hard is it to keep it, especially for do you have to get the permit changed, especially for a world event like this with more people? Like, how does this how does that work?
Building A Fan Base
SPEAKER_01So essentially, if you don't fuck it up, meaning you pay your fees every year, you know, you don't trash the place, right? I mean, if you don't screw up what you're signing off that you're going to be delivering and preserving at the same time, it's fairly easy to keep the permit unless you're working with a jurisdiction that has as its main focus logging, right? If logging is a higher priority, then you always play second fiddle and then you always sort of play this um challenge that and I run into this a little bit that they're saying, yeah, you get your permit, but we need to check with logging activity to confirm that this is all good and fine. And so um, if you want to change the permit, then it's essentially song and dance every single year, right? Every time you make a change, if you want to add 50 more people, if you want from one day to two days, whatever you do, right? You're sort of pushing them, and then they you have to go um through a complete review cycle. Every stakeholder gets, you know, a four-week period to respond and voice their concern, and you have to address all of that. And the biggest concern is always nearby logging, additional, I mean trail erosion, right? How much can the trails hold, and um parking accessibility. And if you can address those things, then in general they're fairly sympathetic to you, just letting you do whatever you want to do, right? They're not there's nobody standing over your shoulder and say, Well, but you said that 10x10 tent would be over there in your um in your drawing, so now you know you have to tear it down, right? Once you have it, it's fine.
SPEAKER_02How how many people will will be at a race like this? Like how many would you expect for for especially for a world skunner year? Because you're gonna have international elites, you're gonna have people from all over the place.
SPEAKER_01How many how what is my permit size? So how many people do I expect? So you tell me. Yeah, right. So so here so here's the biggest the big challenge with all of this, and we need to talk about this a little bit, right? And that is I had a permit and um for 2025, and we had a huge fire that in the Pacific Northwest in western Washington, where it's fairly moist, the fires they don't rip through mountainsides the way you see pictures from Arizona or California, right? Where sort of everything gets burned and then it's over, right? It sort of smolders for weeks. Like the fire. They officially closed sort of the reporting on the fire in November. It started in early August, 4th of July, man-made um fireworks. Thank you very much. Fantastic. And it smoldered, and in November they basically said it's contained, but still smoldering in places, and we literally have to wait for snow to cover it all up and get it fully extinguished. So it was just growing in acreage for a month at a time, right? And everything was closed, and I had a permit, and I had told them I would like to extend it and expand the permit, and I got disapproved with the anticipation of the possibility of bringing the World Series. I always introduced that to the National Forest Service as a possibility, but at the same time, I wasn't willing to try to submit a permit for a thousand people because I'd have to pay for that, and then if 150 people show up because it's not a World Series event yet, right? I wanted to grow it step by step. So fire forces me to cancel the event. I get my permit rolled over to the following year, so I know what I have at a much sooner time than I would usually. My goal is to open registration at these numbers, which is 250 over two races, and a lot of it is rollover from last year, so it's going to be insanely tight. I don't know if there is going to be anybody getting in with the elites um consideration and stuff. It's going to be sell out immediately, right? My hope is that I can reach out to the National Forest Service again and say, Hey, I'm providing a new mobility plan. I want to keep these numbers so that don't take my previous um permit off the table, but I would like to expand it by how much waits to be seen.
SPEAKER_02No, I I appreciate you being open and having this conversation about it because yeah, I've you're gonna have a ton of demand for this race, dude.
SPEAKER_01So it's Oh oh I know. My email inbox, my email inbox tells me that that's going to be the case. Yes. Wow. So my goal is folks who've signed up for 2025, they will get a head start and they will be able to sign up early. That will not sell it out. We do have an elite consideration that comes um from Skyrun World Series. We fill that up. We will have some extra spots beyond that. It won't be a ton, and then hopefully and then it will be sold out, and then we'll do a wait list of sort. Most likely, I need to think all of this through, right? I mean, yeah, this was announced last week. I don't have all the pieces in place yet. But I think that's the plan to basically sell it out, have a wait list, and then work on expanding the permit, and maybe in March Um be able to come back and say, hey, we can have an extra hundred people or 50 people or something like that, right?
SPEAKER_02What is uh what's the stipulation from World Skyrunner? Like, do they make you like hold like 50 spots, 100 spots for for the for their elite athletes?
Olympic Peninsula Terrain And Access
SPEAKER_01Like, how does it work from the So let's talk about that relationship a little bit, right? Um I'm I'm I'm pausing here because I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to be very I'm trying to be very political. They've been amazing. I loved I loved working with them, but I've also been very straight with them and I sort of had not necessarily educate because they are aware of the challenges, but I've just basically said, I'm a race director, I'm not a magician, right? I mean you can have all the expectations that you want, but the reality is it's National Forest Land, it is a campground, without cell coverage, it is what it is. If you want this race, which is one of the only two certified Sky Race courses at this point, then you have to just work with me, right? I'm not sitting at a negotiating table trying to be sly and trying to get the best deal. I just tell you here are the realities you were um we're working with. I can't um, you know, strong arm the National Forest Service into turning Hotsport into Chamonix. It's just not going to happen. We need you need to understand this. And we Been playing the song and dance in various ways for a few years, right? Where they immediately were interested, but I've just said here are the realities, right? You can come and you can bring all of these expectations with you, but if it doesn't if I can't deliver, then it's just not gonna happen, right? And I think they've uh they've they've come to realize that this is an absolute incredible um opportunity. It's uh fur uh you know, away from Seattle, but not too far. Like I mean, for people who come from uh out of the country, you think you take a ferry over and have one of the most gorgeous approaches to a race ever, right? I mean, there are ways of um getting to this place and really embracing what it is. Um and you know, I think we just need to build a sky race, not in let's bring a European event to America and sort of force it over, but let's have the US infrastructure realities not compromise a sky race, but actually highlight what makes the area, the logistics, um, the realities of the geography the coolest thing ever. I mean, I don't know, maybe I'll provide um you know elite accommodations by letting them all sleep in um tents um on a campground, right? I mean, why not? I mean, we we could if we set the stage and say this is what it is, then that's that's what we that's what we do.
SPEAKER_02How how would that work um for I guess elite athletes and stuff like that? I know like I said, I know we're we're not new to this, but this is still in the early processes. We got a lot to do before before the summer starts. Um, but like for the athletes coming over, you said it's pretty remote, it's kind of out there. So like there is no staying in a hotel then, unless you want to drive over pretty far away, right?
SPEAKER_01So I've proposed a couple ideas. Um one is even Hood Sport, which is 15, 20 minutes, kind of a windy road along a lake up to the campground where start and finish is, isn't a town. It's a hamlet, a township, or something like that, right? They don't even have their own city council. There's no school there where I can rent a parking lot for park uh for parking or anything, right? It's literally a community along the water with a coffee shop, a gas station, and 20 Airbnbs, right? So they are a couple little hotels, but it's going to be freaking August. They are they don't need people at that time, so we're not planning an off-season uh um way for them to extend, you know, more bookings or something. I'm we're competing with a town that during that time doesn't need any more hotel beds filled. So we're gonna try to see what's possible in Hotsport, and one theory is to go all the way to Olympia where I live, uh, because that this would be a 45-minute drive to the start. But there we have plenty of hotels. There we have a downtown but the hotels and downtown, the restaurants are there, it's right by the water. We could have um you know, we could have athlete briefing and everything there, and then the race I know, yeah. I think that would make sense.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I think about it from like the Cirque series perspective, right? Like they'll hold their race at let's say Arapaho Basin in Colorado, but they have their big pickup in Boulder at like the Laspertiva store, and have all that pre-race stuff in a higher population area. So that and same with Seven Hills when they came to Crystal. I think they had their uh big pickup at the Seven Hills Running Company, and uh but the race obviously was at Crystal Mountain. So I I think that perspective probably works really well or can work really well, um, especially first year too, where a lot of those folks that are gonna be rollovers from last year are probably from relatively from the greater Pacific Northwest area, so it would make good sense for that as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, it's it's all in the works right now. I mean, you jumped on this, right? I mean, if we would have this conversation at the end of January, I you know, I d then registration is open, then the race is sold out, then it's a different story. But you know, we're all building this up. And I think that's the cool thing with partnering with uh Skyrunner World Series at this point is that they're super excited about coming to the US and there's additional momentum with um a national series and and tons of support for all angles. That we are um they're coming and they're excited to make things work with what they have, right? It's not so n it's not like a car purchase where you they say if you want the car, here are the features, take it or leave it, and this here the demands, right? They're basically saying, hey, we'll build something custom with you because it's worth it, because um we want something in the US, we want to get on the ground again. And I mean, going back to the certified course, you just can't plant these courses anywhere, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, do you know? I don't know if you can be public about this or say anything. Uh, because I've been rooting around for information, and I I already I already got an angry email from Ryan Kerrigan. Uh it seems like there was an announcement made. Uh they kind of announced it where there it seems like there is gonna be a national series with Whiteface and a few other races. Can you speak more to that? I know there's some momentum there, and they kind of put out a newsletter for the course.
Permits, Fires, And Capacity
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, so basically what I can say is that I you know, I explained early on that we have the Skyrunner World Series, which is uh, you know, title sponsored by uh Merrill, and you've got the International Skyrunning Federation, which has sort of a different format, and it's two separate entities. And what I can say is that both of them have come together and say, okay, North America, United States, 2026 is the year. And so they are sort of two entities pushing in with um with all of their sort of weight behind it. So it's not one of those things where I just sat on a bucket of money and bought my way into some obscure uh racing series in order to bring it to my little race. It's really the a concerted effort by multiple parties in trying to make something happen and make it for real, right? Not just okay, for two years it was a Skyrim World Series event and now it disappeared again. They want to build a d enough platform that you know under-20 uh runners can get to race and um people can experience skyrunning in different parts of the country in order to experience and get a taste of what it is to be part of that World Series, right? Yeah, that was very that was very political, right? I was I was very smart. I don't know, I don't know. It was very smart to say a whole bunch and not say a lot. No, I think it's fair.
SPEAKER_02Well said, well said, yeah. I mean, like, I don't know. I could speculate from from here to the Cal's cap home on on what races will be involved and how that works. There's obviously, from what it seems like, more announcements to come and more things to come, but it'll be I I think at the end of the day, and this is just me as an athlete in the sport and as a media brain in the sport, I I think it's a good time for skyraining to come to the States. You're seeing the you know, big expansion by the Cirque series, and I think it's only going to get bigger and only gonna get probably be one of the biggest games in town. You see the Golden Trail series, which seems to pick a new race or new the two races in North America every year. And I also think Golden Trail might not be the same thing it was in previous years. I think it there's a little bit of shine that's starting to fade a little bit, um, but still very competitive, still, in my opinion, soaks up most of the talent that comes out of North America. But I think there's an opportunity for the for world Skyrunner to come in um and and really plant the flag and uh start to grow this thing, and that way they're like a legitimate player in North America for sure.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the the way I see the landscape right now is there's such an opportune moment. We came out of worlds and skyrunning was all of a sudden on the map in the US, right? I mean, Spain is listening to this and laughing, like, what do you mean all of a sudden on the map? We've been doing this for a few decades. So all of a sudden, people were talking about sky racing and and and start talking about um this this this idea of sort of finding routes that are sort of on the edge of the comfort zone and not just endlessly California carpet races, right? So taking you to to to this these places. So we come from there, and then we see the larger landscape of people sort of starting to understand what UTMB does, and there's a little bit of a boredom setting in. Okay, here's another race with a 100 mile, 100k, 50k distance. Hey, here's another race with another right. There is sort of a sameness that comes out of it where I think they're still doing a great job, but I think they're especially from a media point of view, you're looking for the next story, right? And then you've got golden trails, and I think over the last couple years, they sort of took a little bit of the hood off their heads, and like, okay, this is actually just a Solomon marketing vehicle, right? You you all know this, right? So this is not just a golden series, this is really just Solomon. Um, and Solomon will make decisions based on where they want to sell shoes, and if that is in some obscure corner in China, then that's where they would put a race, right? And I think um I think that just provides some challenges, as you know, as we've seen here in the US. And then you can like take the announcements from yesterday. Yesterday, World Trail Major loses two events, right, from 12 down to 10, and they're not replacing them. And I mean heck, right? I mean, you can go now and say in this sport, can we truly have what races, what events do we need to have that make a series a series? Like to run to some st for some stones in order to qualify for a final makes sense, but especially in ultra distance, you can't expect people to run 600 miles a year, right? And so I think you need to there is an opportunity to redefine what it means to be a series, to run for points. And I mean sky racing is this perfect mixture between short distance, so you can actually run multiple races a year. And absolutely pardon me, absolutely gorgeous courses. I swallowed my punchline. No, you're good. And absolutely gorgeous courses, right? And so they become visually perfect to photograph and to shoot, and they um for runners are great, so multiple uh people can actually run and get points, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the UTMB thing makes me scratch my head because like UTMB, I don't know, like the week of UTMB is really special. Like the races they put on, I think, are really cool. I I don't see any issue with UTM. I mean, obviously there's plenty of little nuances people are gonna complain about. I think that's with any race. But like the whole, I don't know, the whole mountaineering spirit and running around the the massif, and now they have all these sweet uh you know, CCC has its own become its own thing, TDS is its own thing. Even ETC, I was really loving following ETC this year. I think that should be uh, you know, on an off year that's not worlds. I let's make that the Mountain Classic World Championship, given that it's like, I don't know, like 14k, 11k, something like that. Um but as far as the Mountain Classic distance goes, I think that's a perfect fit for it. It brings world-class field. You had crazy good runners there this year. Um so each event I feel like has taken its own thing. The rest of it though, I some of it's snoozed bill for me. Uh like like like Speedgoat. When they bought Speedgoat, I I I feel like Speed Goat's lost luster since they bought it, but that's just me.
Working With The World Series
SPEAKER_01So you see, you see, this is I've been following this immensely closely over the last couple of years on electric. Cable Car, my blog where I'm sort of reporting on all of the races and stuff. And here is the thing with UTMB. I think by and large, as much as they are courting the elites and they would never say this out loud because if they would say we don't care about the elites, then obviously it would be bad for their sponsors. They they want elites, but the series is built so amateurs can get points. I mean stones, right? It's all set up so you and I can get qualifying um stones, so we can uh get uh Hatton lottery for the finals. And that's why these events are snooze wheel, right? Because I want a race close to me so I can run it without insane expenses, um, and get my stones so as the lottery opens in a couple days, um, I know that I can put my hat in in my hope to go back to Shamany, right? And so I think that's what the system of the UTB World Series is built out on. And the whole let's find elites to compete in specific events. Um, I mean, that was already three years ago a problem where elites were saying there are too many events because I sign up for a race that fits my training calendar and no other elites at the start line. And so I win the event, haha, great, but I don't have the competition. I want the competition. And that was before they've reached 60 plus races, right? So I don't see I mean, maybe their majors is just are going to try to be that, but you know, yeah, I I think Golden Trail has a UTMB problem.
SPEAKER_02This is something that's not really talked about much, but like I don't know, most elite contracts, a lot of them, a lot of brands, will have uh, you know, you go win uh UTMB 50k and you're gonna get a pretty sweet performance bonus. And I would go race that and go get my performance bonus, not have to go through the gauntlet that is Golden Trail series, or at least all of them. Um, whereas then I gotta go, if I race a Golden Trail series race, then I gotta go up against Patrick Philemon, El Housin, uh, and every other insanely world-talented athlete, right? So I understand why athletes maybe falling off the scene a little bit on the Golden Trail series, just because it, I mean, lack of a better word, it's it's it's an easier path. It's it's you gotta you put in the same amount of work for a better result, in my opinion, uh, than having to go through. But, you know, it's it's 50-50. You also want to get crazy good competition, but you also want to get a payday. So it's it's it's kind of uh you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know too much about these these compensations. I the elites that I speak to, they always iterate to me that the sponsor contracts that they have allow them to pick whatever events they want, that they're not beholden by uh maybe UTMB is the one weekend where they have to show up, but beyond that, they're free to pick any race that they want. So I don't I can't really speak to that. I'm pretty sure it's true, right? I'm not denying it. But yeah, absolutely. I think there's definitely um that piece too. But I think with Golden Trail particular, it's an interesting um challenge that I think they're just all in. Solomon is a huge sponsor of the Olympic Games, and so I just think they're trying to position themselves extremely hard in being sort of a feeder and showcase event of what um um trail running in the Olympics could look like, right? What's your what's your take on that? Do you think we should be an Olympic sport? So here's my take on this. It's very much colored from skyrunning. I think it should be in the Winter Olympics.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, all right, don't make it elaborate on this.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, trail running partially is defined by mud and grit and uh gnarliness, right? And so as the winter Olympic the Winter Olympics are anyway smaller, and as if if it becomes an a summer Olympic sport, then it's just gonna be another running event and we'll sort of be in the larger like track and field category. Oh yeah. And so I think it will not fit nicely in there, or even worse, to they're running on the mountain bike loop because that looks the same, right? I think it should uh the IC and I mean this is a complete pipe dream. I love the Olympics, but they're not the smartest bunch, right? So climate change is gonna wreck most of the winter sports anyway. So it would do them well if they would think of can we bring some sports into the Winter Olympics that don't require a perfect layer of snow. And um to have trail running in the Winter Olympics, you could probably do. I mean, you know, it would be so different, it would look different, it would feel different, it would have a much bigger pop than if it would be just another running event in the Summer Olympics. I like that.
SPEAKER_02That's that is the most that's that's the best one I think I've heard so far. Because the all the other conversations have been yes or no, and then what do we do? Do we just have a VK and then you run around a track a few times? Like how like what what what do we do? Um like I don't know. I mean this could be cool. This could be cool because it's like the sky race day math sin, uh or day math however you pronounce it, um, but like that's always a late May, early June, somewhere in that range race, where there's a ton of snow, and it's really cool, it's very different and very unique.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and International Sky Running Federation has a sky snow category, so they have specific events that are meant to be run on snow. And um there is the Hannenkam, one of the most notorious ski downhill uh slopes on the in Austria on the World Cup series. Um there is an uphill running event uh that happens every year in February on on snow, where you basically just go up this insanely steep ski slope. Um and so there is a precedent where you could totally build a course that is either entirely on snow, right? You could have one event on snow, one event not on snow, right? I mean, I think that there is room. And I think it would make the bigger impact, and it would take hello, it would take away the competition from all the summer events, right? I mean, if Summer Olympics happens in July, then UTB is like, are you gonna run me or are you gonna run the Olympics? Right? It's like put it in February. You're not gonna compete with any major event. Yeah.
Logistics: Lodging, Travel, And Briefings
SPEAKER_02See what how do we uh what do we do with the world going forward? Is this still uh an every year kind of thing? Are you excited about that? I I feel like we learned a lot this year. It was a very interesting event. I I think the lack there of some athletes in the longer distances was a little frustrating, but I still think at the shorter distances like Short Trail and Down that was that was fun to follow. But I have one more caveat to that. Toby Alexanderson, I think, on any course would have won. I don't know if Fred Tranchard would have been the world champion had it been a different course. I'm just gonna put that one out there.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I you know, I mean, again, my sort of personal interest and following is more on sort of the business strategy around it all. I don't really follow all the different athletes um that closely uh and the strategies around it. I mean, my hot take is if the world champs are gonna happen be happening every two years, it cannot happen in the fall because it's either the end of the season or it completely uh competes with UTMB, which is just way too big of an event. It has to happen in May or June. Yes, it will then compete with Western states, but Western States has 300 runners and UTMB has thousands, right? I mean, if you want to worry about drawing competition away from the worlds, Western States is a much lower draw because way fewer elites run this event, comparatively across the other events that are worlds, right? And so, in order to give athletes the best chance to be at the height of their game, you should have it at the beginning of the summer, and let them the distances are anyway shorter, right? Most runners who are running the longer distances sort of built their season up, a shorter race, a little longer race, longer race, UTB or tour or something long at the end, right? And so I think put it early in the season, make it a feature then, and um and and then they're not called all gassed out at the end of the year. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. I agree. It definitely something needs to be done to the calendar to kind of make everything fit all at once. Because that's the thing. If we had uh Ben Diemon and Tom in the mix that maybe didn't have UTMB in their legs, it would have made for a much interest more interesting race. Um and on the women's side, I think it would have been an interesting race as well. So I don't know. You know, it's uh it's all good speculation. I think things need to change on the sponsor side too. I know Caleb Bolson was pretty uh outspoken and wrote a really good Substack article on on how because and this is um just from the athlete perspective, like brands just don't seem to give a shit when it comes to world, or at least a lot of them don't, because you can't really market their product. You're wearing their shoes. Yeah, for obvious reasons. Right, right, right. You're wearing their shoes, but if you're running for, let's say, Team USA, you're in a complete and total Nike kit. Like no one, uh no brand is gonna get behind that. So I think things need to change need to change or progress in some way there. Um that's a whole nother conversation. And yeah, it's uh I think it's just growing pains in the sport. We'll we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think wearing the national team kit is special for every athlete. It's special for um the fans of the sport to see this, to have an event where you can follow something along different storylines rather than just following the individual athlete that you have the most affinity with or so, right? Um sort of de-emphasizing the sponsor attention and focus on sort of that classical national team element in sports, I think, is cool. Um and I love this in any sport, and so I think it has a right to exist, but yeah, I do not think that um our sport has fully figured this out and has the right kind of um found the right kind of angle. But again, right? I mean, you can just play this out. I mean, if these trail running national associations aren't part of a proper national, fai larger federation or don't have a proper home, then there's no funding there, and then it's shitty for the athletes, and uh, right? And we we uh don't have a good product, a spectator product, you know. I followed it from afar, but I just I don't watch you know crummy YouTube videos. I don't watch it for hardly any events, right? Yeah, that's true. That's true.
National Series Momentum
SPEAKER_02I just want to see the best compete against the best, and I don't want there to be any BS involved, and I think that's one of the things, at least for long trail, UTMB has done a great job of making them there, there's enough incentives there and enough of a world stage there to where generally, and obviously there's years where we're missing Killian, Francois, you know, this, that, and the other, but generally we're getting the best of the best uh against one another. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting, it's a crazy sport, man.
SPEAKER_01No, it it absolutely is, and um um, you know, I'm just I'm just both fascinated and grateful that I can be in it, play a role in it, play a part in it, um, bring this guy around a world series to the US and sort of I mean I'm yeah, I'm not gonna sleep between now and August.
SPEAKER_02Well, hopefully we have more conversations between now and then. Um I want to open up the mic to you if you have any announcements that you want to make when as things get rolling, if you have anything that you want to put out there in the world that I can be a part of and help with, the microphone is yours. I uh any way I can help because I love the fact that you're putting on this event and uh really happy world skyrunners coming to the states. So uh anything else if you wanna you do you think we uh got everything, or is there anything else you want to put out there?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll I'll give you uh give you quickly the rundown. I appreciate you having me on the show. So a couple important things. Um I'm gonna have a website, a dedicated website for Beast of Big Creek uh soon. BeastofbigCreek.com exists, currently redirects to rock or directs to Rock Andy Running. I will have more information for folks who are interested in the nuts and bolts. I mean, there's still a ton of stuff that needs to be sort of ironed out and figured out and built from scratch before I can make the announcements. So be patient. My hope is, and my current announcement is that by January 14th I'll have registration open again that will sort of um, I don't know, include or have included already um previous runners and elites and stuff, they will all go through a different channel. So BeastofBigCreek.com is the website. I just started an Instagram account for that race particularly as well. I'll put that in the show notes so people can follow. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, if you're interested in, I don't know, more of me, not really me at all. And the Trail Running Film Festival is going back on tour mid-March, and we're currently in the process of sifting through a ton of incredible submissions for new films gonna be hopefully in a town near you or not. If you are interested in seeing where it is, calendar isn't fully updated yet, but trailfilmfest.com has information. If you want to host and bring the Trailing Film Festival to your town, um reach out to me and let's make that happen. What else? Electric Cable Car is my daily, daily almost blog where I'm trying to write down all of the things that I just rambled about for an hour.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I love it. And I'll link that in the show notes as well. Uh, dude, you've had some great ones, man. I was so happy that you had Alex Arenzi on, uh, especially with the whole Michelino thing. And what a what a wild time.
SPEAKER_01So this was a this was a really, really tough one for me because I I loved having him on, especially the second time when he sort of like, you know, opened uh up and kind of was able to sort of share what actually went down in this year and a half of legal case, which you can't really talk much about when it's ongoing, right? But I also felt massively out of with my depth. I have absolutely no idea on how to sort of guide this conversation because I don't I'm not experienced in this legal stuff, right? And so I don't really know what words to use in order to say, oh yeah, and then you were doing that. Oh, oh, that's what this is called. Uh I'm an idiot. So that's it was a really Alex is a genius.
SPEAKER_02So he I think pretty sure he went to Harvard Law School, so it's we're all out of our depth effects to talk about.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, I think it was important to bring this conversation um out, right? But I think it's uh um at the same time, um yeah, those conversations are challenging. Right, and I mean let's talk about this, right? I mean, we as hosts, there are now so many podcasts um on trail running, and uh, you know, you know, it's so easy to just grab a mic and finding a unique angle though, finding a new unique way of weaving a story together. Um, I think it's really hard because it's so easy to get started and just shoot the breath for an hour, right? And then say, hey, this was really fun. It was fun catching up or getting to know each other, right? But what's what's the meat? Where are uh the real conversations where the real stories and the value, right? I mean it's it's an interesting challenge to pull out.
The Race Ecosystem: UTMB, Golden, Cirque
SPEAKER_02My take on that is uh yes, anyone can pick up a microphone, but can you be consistent? Can you do it every three times a week for three years, four years, five years until you finally get it to click? Like I think it's I feel like in my opinion, like you're not even like I still don't consider myself a podcaster because I'm not even three years in. Like I uh I feel like it's like anything in life, like running, whatever. You're not good at something until you hit like 10,000 hours of mastery. And even then you're still even then you're still improving and getting better. Listen, man, I've reinvented myself in this a few times. Like I've always had the same angle with short trail, but for me, I used to be so scared to uh to rock the boat or say something that I thought like someone wasn't gonna like, or you know, because just oh god, I would get a negative review on Apple. Now, once I stopped caring about that, I feel like I have had more success with it and it's clicked a lot more. Where I don't mind being the heel and calling someone out and being just as long as it's I'm true to myself and true to what the sport should be and what I think the sport should be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think for me it's about guest selection, right? Because I think especially with Instagram, it's so easy to slide into someone's DM and say, Hey, do you want to be in the show, right? Um, but you need to find an unique angle of what you want to talk to them about. And I think especially as you're going up as a podcast, I think you naturally want um the cooler pe people, the ones that are sort of you know globally known and stuff, right? That feel that gives your ego something and hopefully your clicks too and stuff, right? And but sometimes these people are so polished or you have no real connecting piece other than like gushing over how cool they are. Um, you know, like when I had Francesco Pupi on the show, right? I pretty much said off the bat, I don't want to talk to you at all about your athletic performances, right? I was like, I I feel like we have enough other stuff to talk about. And he was like, Oh, thank God. Yeah, yeah, he was so relieved. No, exactly. And this is the interesting thing that I think like athletes are humans foremost, and they want to be treated as a human. And you know, we sort of you know, we sort of sometimes present, especially us in the media, that we're bored of Courtney Dowater interviews because she's so polished and so, you know, here is my pain cave and here's my candy, right? But I think she wants to be a human, and as a human, she she isn't really I don't think she is hiding some kind of wicked master plan and how her training comes together. I don't think she is I think she just really understands how to embrace the flow state. And man, I was just in Seattle when Killian finished up his um states of elevation thing, and he was interviewed, and I mean he pissed me off so much because he was so low-key about his achievement, right? Everybody in the audience is like, we want to bow down to you, great Killian king and ruler of our sport, right? I mean, genuinely, this achievement was massive, and he's just like, oh yeah, and then I hopped on the bike and uh just like rode for 2,000 miles. What's the big deal, right? And it's like these people are human, they are superhuman in a sense that they um that that they can do things that I can't do that we can't do, right? But by and large, they're humans that are driven by passion and by large lung capacities, right? I mean, they're and and I think those are the conversations for me that are the best, even though sometimes us in the media they infuriate us because we sort of want to dig in.
SPEAKER_02Uh that's a it's an yeah, that's a big thing for me. And it's not so much the it like as an athlete in the sport, I I find it very easy to have conversations with other athletes. That never bothered me. That was always fine, that was never an issue. For me, it's dealing with other media personalities, and I won't like name names, but like when I go through and listen to other podcasts, like like for instance, like I you have a particular angle that I really enjoy. I think Finn from Singletrack has a very good angle that I particularly enjoy. Yeah, she just has a shitty name for a podcast, but before I was gonna ask you about that. I have another question on that afterwards, but like, dude, so many people are so boring because no one wants to say, no one speaks their mind. It's all the same button-up shit. It's all the same, like, let me toe the line and not not not make you upset, and not make this group upset. I'm gonna just kind of stay in the middle and you know, just be very, very careful. And no one has any hot takes where I see more on the Euro side, more people on the Euro side in media have out takes. Like they're they're not afraid to like say something or like speak their mind. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I I hope that changes, and I think that's something like I'm going to continue to lean into um with speaking more of my mind for the sport. Um, so yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I think everybody's just too worried about the advertising revenue. Yes, right. For everybody, everybody's trying to make it a business and feels like, man, you know, if I like do something that you know pisses off a sponsor, either of the athlete that I'm having uh interviewing or the sponsor that I am interviewing, right? Everybody tries to create the most vanilla product in order to sort of create and I don't know, I mean, mass like big mainstream media sports, by and large, is also very hot take-free, right? I mean, they're putting some figureheads on who sometimes have a big head and and stuff, but I I mean, think about it. When the Olympics happen or here, like I mean, in mainstream media, you will not get anybody talk negatively about the FIFA World Cup coming and all the bullshit that's going down. Everybody is gonna just gonna be like, you know, let's just dribble and watch the and and watch the sport and act like charging$3,000 for a ticket for uh the soccer world cup is in any way connected to to the sport. You get this stuff, you know, in think pieces in the Atlantic and the New York Times and stuff like that, right? But in in sort of the main figurehead media, right, you get mostly like, let's just see how cool Messi is.
SPEAKER_02Oh, dude. I could we could we could do a whole other podcast list. I do have one question for you before I let you go. Okay, how did it come up? So Fing got the single track name for his podcast. You had it first. How did that work out?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, you you know how it worked out. I mean, he still has it, and I still have it. Basically, I emailed him, a friend of mine pointed it out to me, and I emailed him and said, dude, I've been doing this for 200 episodes. Do you think you know, 10 episodes in, do you want to change it? And he said, No. No shit.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Finn's a really good guy. I've like he's given me a lot of advice, but like I've never asked that question. So very interesting. That's yeah, damn.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, I w what what can I say, right? Would I would I've appreciated that you know, you'd reconsidered it if somebody um is sort of covering exactly the same sort of angle in the same sport and has a name and has like 200 episodes, that you would respect it. Of course I would have respected that, right? And I appreciated that. But some people feel different.
SPEAKER_02We got a beef in the podcasting world. Here we go. I mean, this is outrageous. Now we have these conversations. Uh I love it.
SPEAKER_01I I I yeah, I don't know, I don't know what to say. I can say that I did not engage with a lawyer.
SPEAKER_02Oh man. Crazy. Crazy too. Well, now you know one. Alex Arenzi, that's the guy. If you if you got a problem, he can get your presidential pardon. There you go. Seriously. Well, listen, Matias, thank you so much for your time. I can't wait to talk more in the future. Uh, super appreciative. And uh best of luck this year with the Beast of Big Creek. And uh, I can't wait to see it uh continue to grow and uh this avenue of the sport grow. So appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. Are you gonna come out?
Worlds Scheduling And Athlete Incentives
SPEAKER_02Yeah, actually, I well that's kind of what I was I was kind of poking around about like elite entries and entries and stuff like that. Maybe we'll see. I'd like to come out and like do pre-pre and post-race interviews. I might race it too if I can get a spot. We'll we'll talk about this.
SPEAKER_01We we should we should talk about it. I I have not I mean I've talked locally with folks and you know, having to completely rebuild my organization because my race is so far on a scale that it's sort of you know my daughter at the aid station and and and stuff, which they want to continue beat the H and I'll have my I have my family do my um uh help out and stuff, but I need obviously a larger group you know, need to set this up completely differently. But I think there is an opportunity in sort of trying to, yeah, I don't know, trying to look at how can we do media without just calling up Mountain Out uh post and saying, hey, do live streams, thank you very much, right? I mean, is there a way of rethinking what media around an event like this can look like? So I think there's some opportunity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we will talk more of that. And it's you know what it's in a favorable spot in the schedule for me because I don't have anything till the end of August uh on that, like it as far as my August calendar. So we'll all we'll talk more of this.
SPEAKER_01I like it. I like it. Well, I uh thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Awesome, dude. Thank you so what you guys think. Oh man, what a fun show. Want to thank Matias so much for coming on for a conversation. Uh poor guy, I hit him with 21 questions about the race, and it literally just got announced last week that it was gonna be on the World Sky Running series. So um I appreciate him being willing to uh to answer all the questions and uh just be willing to uh talk about the race. And I'm so excited to get the hype train rolling for this. August is gonna be here for you before you know it, and uh can't wait to be covering this race and just you know getting the uh word out to the community and uh our our our world of short trail to uh build the hype train for it. So, guys, if you enjoyed this podcast and you've been enjoying our episodes, give us a five star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcasts. That's right. Pan on over to YouTube, hit that subscribe button. Button and uh yeah, definitely check us out on Spotify and Apple as well. And uh special on Apple. Uh write what you've been liking or disliking. Like I'd love to hear what you guys think. Um yeah, all good stuff there. Guys, lots of good stuff coming throughout the rest of the new into the new year. Lots of cool announcements. Supposedly one of these days I'm gonna do a state of the steep stuff episode. I've just been trying to line up a co-host to get that done. Uh Frank Censeri. Um yeah. So uh appreciate you guys, and uh lots of good stuff on the horizon. Thanks so much.
