Best of 2025 - Ryan Becker Fan Favorite Episode

Best of 2025 - Ryan Becker Fan Favorite Episode 

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Transcript

Welcome & Episode Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What's up guys? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello, and I'm super excited today to bring you an episode with none other than Ryan Becker. One of the most consistent athletes to probably ever grace our sport. Ryan was kind enough to come on the podcast and talk about his life. Shared his story and I really appreciate it. It was a really fun episode. We got into some of the issues he'd been dealing with with his Achilles injury. We talked about sponsorship. We talked about just consistency in the sport and how Ryan has just maintained and had the ability to just stay so consistent and healthy despite battling so many Achilles issues throughout his career. We talked about racing goals and how his goals have kind of changed over the last few years as he's moved from the sub ultra and uh to the 50k distance as well as looking at some of the longer stuff for the potential future. Um this was a great conversation. I gotta be honest with you. It was one of uh it was really fun to see the way Ryan thinks and the way he approaches the sport like a consummate professional. Um and it was cool to see who he admires and who he looks up to as he's kind of grown in the sport over the years. So without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one. It is a personal favorite of mine. Um, really, Ryan is someone I've looked up to in the sport since I kind of got into it. And like I said, uh he's just so consistent and just one of the best athletes uh, you know, potentially to come have come in our sport in the last five years or so. So here we go. Without further ado, Ryan Becker. Ladies and gentlemen, sweet listen up, guys. The Steep Stuff Podcast is brought to you by Ultimate Direction USA. Guys, I am so excited. UD just dropped their new race vest 6 liter and Ultra Vest 12 liter in two beautiful aesthetic colors. You guys gotta check these new vests out. They're dynamic in ways, um, like that you just have never seen from an Ultimate Direction vest. Um, very stretchy, lots of storage, uh, beautiful aesthetic colorways coming into coming to you in a new, like a white and blue and an onyx and green. Just absolutely beautiful vests. Um, I think these ones are just like some of the best products we've ever dropped, and I'm so excited for you guys to try them out. Hop on ultimatedirection.com and use code Steepstuff Pod. Again, that's Steep Stuff Pod for 25% off your new vest. I mean, they're already affordably priced, but 25% off is just gonna make it so much more affordable for folks uh in an already increasingly expensive trail running environment. So hop on ultimate direction.com, get yourself a new vest, a pack, or any hydration solution, and let me know what you guys think. Ryan Becker, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How are you, man?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm great and yourself?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I'm doing good, man. I'm doing good. I'm stoked to really like really excited to have you on the podcast. Like I've known about you for a long time, like followed you in the sport. You've been in the sport for the what, the last like five or six years. It's crazy to think that like since 2019, like shit like fast time goes by fast. So yeah, man, just excited to finally have a conversation and uh get you on the pod. How's your uh how's your day going?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Good, yeah, going good. I actually ran this morning with um Dylan uh Bowman and Lindsay up at Big Rock. So yeah, we had a pretty beautiful inversion over there. I'm sure there's a beautiful inversion for the 6 a.m. Tam group also. But yeah, always good to start the day with a little sunrise. That's kind of what it's all about, eh?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

For sure, for sure. Now you just came off a second place at what was the the uh Lake Sonoma Marathon?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

The marathon, yeah. How a hard fought second. I uh yeah, it it was good, but Dan, yeah, Dan Jones is just uh world class and he managed to break away on the on the final downhill. But um, yeah, I I think that was like a pretty I was pretty excited with that result. Um obviously if I'd managed to hold it together a little better, it it would have been a little more talked about maybe, but no. It was it was kind of um not a last minute entry, but um Lindsay and I always spend kind of the telluride off season out here in California, and that race just made sense with our timing to kind of do a hard effort after like a pretty snowy winter and then have three weeks of base training basically. So yeah, I'm I'm super stoked with how that race went.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Nice. Yeah, I mean, I mean it's it's always fun. I mean, uh, especially with Big Alta and then this to like mix it up with world-class competition. It's always good to see where we're at in like early season.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

So big Alta, I was definitely I was I was disappointed with the results, but not with how it happened. I like had the flu pretty bad um in the weeks leading up to that race. So I like kind of missed quite a bit of training, and um yeah, I think that course suits me probably could suit me really well. Um, so I was I was disappointed that I had to come into that race after missing like quite a bit of training, but even for that race, I was pretty happy with how it went with I mean I'd run probably like 15 miles in the last two weeks before that race or something dumb. So I was it was yeah, it was good to also kind of get that one. Um, and that did you know set me up for like snow malls so like the the muscle damage had been done, so it was pretty yeah, it was a nice stepping stone. Nice and the community for Big Alta was really great too to kind of come out of Telluride is like a very small town, um, and you kind of can be like heads down for a while. So it's nice to like go to a race where a lot of your friends who are your competitors are and kind of like catch up with everyone and you know get your feet wet a little bit before the summer really kicks off.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

For sure, for sure. How's uh like how you feeling after both races? You starting to recover pretty well?

Achilles History And Cycling Balance

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yeah, I mean I was messed up after big Alto, like I don't know if I've had quad damage that bad ever. Um but um as you like had maybe gathered if you if you had done any like browsing on my Instagram or anything, I've like had a notorious like Achilles problem. Um, but the last probably 18 months is gonna be going pretty well. So if I like leave any race and am not like uh that was like really damaging in a bad way to the Achilles tendon, like muscle damage is nothing to tendon damage because you'll just need a couple days from that anyway. So I'm always happy to just bounce. And I'm a big like cyclist as well, so I can pretty much always after any kind of race, like just hop on the bike next the next day and like if I wanted to, like potentially get a session in, but I'm not like shuffling around um because I like biking almost more than running sometimes. But yeah, I'm happy to hop on the bike usually um after any kind of hard effort for as long as it takes to get the the soreness to go away.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Nice. Let's talk about you a little bit, man. So you're in you're you reside until you ride. How do you how do you like like I I asked Lindsay this question, so I'm sure you probably knew this one was common, but like how do you how do you like living there? Because it's like I mean it's a great place to train in the summer, it's amazing. I mean, especially if you're a skier as well um in the winter, but like it's so far and hard to get to like everything from there, like how it's got its pros and cons, right? Like, how do you like that?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah, and I think that's just like more generally to like any it's anywhere you're gonna live ever. It's like there's pros and cons. So as long as you that's what I've said in the past to to Lindsay, because we were never gonna be there full time. Um, we were just kind of there. She maybe told you that story. Um, but we were kind of just there for like a month, and then it was COVID and like return to office just kept getting pushback, pushback. And so we ended up obviously staying here now. I don't know what it is, the third or fourth year that we'll be there. But um yeah, I think just so like I always told her, it's just like as long as we're like okay with the trade-offs that we're making for the benefits that we think we're getting, then it's a good place to live. And I think that's the case anywhere, but yeah, it's it's far away from like a lot of things. And you know, if your car needs to get serviced, it's like a pain in the ass to like drive three-hour round trip to like get to the nearest town that has reasonable prices, like grocery prices are really high. It is a long winter. You do have like the I don't know if you saw that like documentary about like depression and veil, like in a resort town, like there are these like high highs and low lows, and and not just in like partying or things like that, or like you're like more than half of like during the on season, the people who are like in the town or like on vacation and you're like working, serving, you know, there's that dynamic, but it's also just like living in a place like as beautiful as Telluride. You're kind of like, well, if I'm not like doing a huge mountain thing, like you know, you're you want to do that every day, but you can't, and so you do have these, you have to always be like walking the line or just like knowing the trade-offs, having that balance. So that's all to say, Telluride is awesome. Um, and it it is hard sometimes, but yeah, I mean, even like I was a little into schemo, Lindsay and I met in Boulder on the front range, and that's kind of why I got into up hailing a little bit before it really not before it took off, but before people started talking about the Olympics and things like that, and when it was like a way more casual activity is kind of what I mean. Like I'm no like schemo racer or anything, I just kind of like doing some fitness skiing. Um, but yeah, in the winter in Telluride, like getting out in the resort before it opens, like doing a couple laps with the dog or catching the sunrise or just ripping a couple groomers, like and you drove there and it took you three minutes from your house, you know what I mean? Like that's pretty awesome. Um, and then yeah, and this summer is the reason we moved moved there or tried it out in the first place, and it's like it is world-class, like it's pretty, it's pretty freaking awesome. Um we I remember like Lindsay, I went to Europe a couple years ago, and I was kind of just like ready to get back home because the summer window is really short and tell you right, also, and you're kind of like, I just want to like be home on my home mountain trails.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So and the San Juans are just epic. I mean, there's like no shortage of things to do, like there's always like basically day trips you can make out of it, and it's I almost feel like for an athlete like yourself, especially on the sub ultra scene and like in that 50k like in down scene, it's like almost like hard to like because there's so much to do, you almost like have to hold yourself back a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Like, yeah, or even like I think um in the past, like we've had Lindsay and I do like to race a lot typically, but like a lot of the races you want to do are in the summer, and then like a lot of the mountain projects you want to do are also in the summer, and then so you you have to like balance actually like getting the right training in with like doing those projects and also knowing that you're gonna be missing weekends to go to a race. So it is like a fine balance, and the and the weekends do run short every summer, basically. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

It's it's such a cool place to live.

Life And Training In Telluride

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Do you think you'd I didn't actually didn't did not ask Lindsay this question, but do you guys you think you'll be there for a while, like long term or um we yeah, I mean we're we're pretty committed, like um yeah, housing is like a major problem in Telluride and obviously in like mountain resort towns more generally, and we're like lucky to not have that problem. So we're like pretty grounded there, and yeah, we're looking to to be there for a while. And again, like as long as that pro con trade-off list is still more pros and cons, then I think it makes sense to stay there. Yeah, yeah, super cool.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, it's just just such a great place to base out of, man. It's uh it's dope.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

But it is, yeah. We're always trying to, I mean, whether we're on the front range or here in California, like right now, we're always like trying to get people to come visit us a little bit because yeah, I love to like show it off a little bit and also just yeah, have some some more training people or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, do you have I know like Willie, what is the name? Willie Malam was out there for a while. I know he was training with you for a bit. Guy's a freak, dude. Um, what do you have anybody like high level to train with out there anymore? Or is it like mostly solo, or like what's what's the deal?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, it's mostly solo. Um Willy was like a great asset, and we had like run a couple times together when we lived in Boulder, but that's kind of when I was like really just getting started um after graduating, and he was like so far, so much better than I was as an athlete that we I was never like training with him in Boulder, but yeah, it was awesome when he was in Telluride and we could do um he would yeah, pull me along on the bike path or whatever. And I mean, even for himself, like he knows how to push himself like really way too hard anyway, and so just like trying to hang on to each other because also you're you're coming from like that's another piece of telluride, is it is so high, yeah. And even like if you're coming from Boulder, which is at 52, 55, whatever, which is altitude, and you're used to hitting like splits that are maybe like a little slower than you ran at sea level, or maybe you're fit enough to do that, and then you come up to Telluride and you like try to run those splits again, and you're gonna be like dry heaving, or just like not able to run those times. But Willie would like push himself to be like still running those times. So he was he was a good one to get to get drug along to. Um but no, there's um there's another like young, young fellow in town, um, Spencer Keating, who's like a telly red local, he grew up there, and um he has been kind of taking some of my KOMs the last like couple years, last summer. And he also has that like insane. Like at this point, I'm I'm like 30, I'm not really like going to the well in training anymore, but like when you're young, I think you still can do that a lot. And so he is like putting some like insane like race efforts almost, I feel like, on some of these climbs, and I'm like, uh shit. Like, I that's that's like a a motivator to yeah, get back and get in shape, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, no, that's super cool. That's interesting too. Like, I don't know, if it depending on like geographic location, like sometimes you'll get like I'm in the springs, right? And there's no shortage of psychos out here to train with. Yeah, like people take it so hard. It's also like funny though, because I'm older now, I'm 34, and it's like you see people like leave race efforts on Strava all the time, and it's like, why would you do that? Versus like, you know, save that for the race day. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Well, it's just easy. I mean, like you can get like a if you put a big KOM down or something, like then you're gonna get a hundred kudos on it, and you you didn't have to travel or do the race, you know what I mean? So yeah, I think and that's kind of like that's to like just social media in general nowadays, is it is just like putting out these big efforts or you know, impressive something just to like show off a little bit. But yeah, I think yeah, I that's the reason why I think um and COVID played a role in that too. I mean, no one was really that wasn't like in my vocabulary like FKTs before the COVID era when people couldn't race. And so I think there is like there has been like some establishment and then also just like continued interest in like FKTs more generally. But I agree with you in that. I hate when people are like, oh yeah, big FKT and it's like a you know half mile segment somewhere, like something dumb like that. It's kind of just like, yeah, you should probably just do a workout rep and not be like racing something dumb.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's it we we'll get into Stravel later on, but yeah, it's an interesting, it's a funny thing. Yeah, I gotta I gotta pivot to um let's talk about your origin story, man. Maybe give me like the five-minute like pitch on like tennis. Talk to me about like Washington University. Tennis. Oh, yeah. I dug a little deep, man. I prepared for this interview. Um, I I thought it was funny just because like I'm you got to race some Remy LaRue, who I'm sure you met at uh Big Alta, he's another tennis guy. So I'm starting to see more tennis guys pop up.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, uh yeah, soccer's on soccer's on the out for the pipeline to mountain running now. It's just tennis.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Sad us, it's sadness. Maybe uh maybe talk about that. I'm stoked to hear.

Origins: Tennis To D3 Running

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, I mean, I I got into running like pretty late. Um I did kind of just like try the like team sport thing, but it wasn't really like a perfect fit for me. Like I never really felt like I never really was like loving soccer or anything like that. Found tennis like a little later, um either just before high school or kind of around that time, and I I really liked that a lot. I I don't know if I appreciated when I first started, but like tennis is like a huge mental component to it, um, and like obviously a skill component more than like necessarily fitness, and so that's kind of like a fun thing to be trying to master. Um but um it was like clear then like I was never gonna, you know, do anything really with tennis. At the time, I was kind of I was like starting to do like you send out kind of videos to colleges in addition to your results with tennis, because they're like looking at your form and and things like that. So I was making those and I was starting to kind of float those around, but ultimately like the colleges I was looking to apply to, it was likely that I was not gonna be able to make uh the team, maybe like a club team or something. But when you're sending those videos, you're obviously not sending it to a club. Um, but then my junior year. Oh, I was kind of yeah, I was laughing with Lindsay about this. I have ulcerative colitis, um, which I was kind of laughing about because um like uh Grayson Murphy just got this like Crohn's diagnosis, and I was like, man, I should have been cashing in on this ulcerative colitis thing for a long time. But no, luckily mine is like well in remission, and it sounds like she just got hers, so it's a completely different story. But but I had a bad flare-up, and as a result, I had like really weakened bones, and so I actually got this like really bizarre and rare fracture in my hand, so I couldn't play tennis for a while. I was trying to like let this heal. Um, and so I was kind of just like jogging around trying to stay fit for the next season, and then eventually did come back, but had been running more, and it was kind of like pushing the boundary of running um like as an exploratory kind of thing, like, oh, I wonder if I can run four miles, six miles, eight miles. Like, and I remember especially like one eight mile run I did. I must have been a junior in high school at this point, and I was like, Wow, if I haven't run eight miles, like only three more of those, like basically a marathon, like I should probably do a marathon this summer. And so that so that was my like intro into. Running a little bit. And so the next high school year, my senior year, I um sort of walked on to the track team and also played tennis in the fall. But then I was um, or I guess it would have been cross-country, but then after that, I was kind of just like loving running too much, and so I I stopped playing tennis and started running a lot more. And eventually I I reached out, I had like got into Washu, where I went to school, Washington University in St. Louis, and um way too slow to like to join the team. But the coach there, Jeff Styles, was like, you're welcome to like try out, of course. And so I did eventually do that and had already been like running more and more. I did a second marathon that summer just to kind of see how much I improved. And the first the first year I ran the first marathon with you know tennis interest training, I think I ran like four hours, 15 minutes. It was like the hardest thing I'd ever done. Had to stop like several times and like like get down on the pavement because my legs were like so hurting so bad. And then the next year I ran like 256, and I was like, all right, well, if I keep doing this, I'll probably like if I can keep this curve up. So anyway, I did walk onto the team eventually, and um yeah, under that kind of training curiosity, plus with the guidance of yeah, coach Styles. Um I ran all four years there and had a great time. Had success, a little bit of success there. Um, shout out Division III. I think that's how you breed people who just love the sport for years. Um, know a ton of D1 friends who don't run anymore, and I still love it. So that that I think was like a major factor in trail running down the road is because I just still loved running and I was never pushed too hard to make me hate it during those like formative college years.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

So let's unpack that a little bit. So you're you're a D3 all-american, which is like insane, pretty crazy. Like it's just it's interesting to me because like you come from like being reasonably fit in high school to being like you just achieved such a high level really quickly in college. Like, was that just I mean, obviously genetics have to play probably a massive role, but probably coaching as well, being able to have the right coaches around you to help you get to that level. Would you would you agree with that?

Mileage, Injuries, And Recovery Lessons

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Or I would say coaching a little bit, um, but actually because I was not recruited to run and was like you can walk on, I had kind of trained myself so that I'd be ready for this walk-on. And that was that was basically just running a lot of mileage. Um and then after then I walked on and was kind of like on the you know JV tier of the team, and so you don't get like a lot of hand holding or anything like that. And so I continued just to run a lot of high mileage and like built up my base probably just really quickly. And then the next year, I don't know if it was my sophomore year, I had just like taken such a big step up that um Jeff was basically Coach Styles was like, whatever you're doing, just keep doing it. And so he would like still like write workouts for me, and I would mostly do like everything that was written, but a large component of my training has just been like figuring it out for myself and keep doing what's working, and at that time it was just like a ton of mileage, and so so coaching does play a role, obviously, but part of the appeal of running, I think, to many people, especially I mean, when you're growing like that, is you do get better at it every year if you just keep doing it. So for me, that was just like doing it to like probably an unhealthy amount that I think like directly it did directly lead to my Achilles injuries. Um, that one summer I was running like 130, uh, I think at 140 mile a week, but a ton of 100 mile weeks for for years, and then it was just like ultimately a little too much for the Achilles, but it did get me like pretty fit in a relatively short time span. Interesting. So mileage is mileage does work, but it will also break you if you do it in the wrong way.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Let's talk about the Achilles ten the both Achilles tendons, because I you pretty candid in Instagram post like semi-recently about like how you considered before last season getting in like surgeries on both of them. Um I did some research for this, uh just like you said, like you you kind of had struggles with the the Achilles tendon all the way back to college, too. So this is something that's been going on for a long time, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, yep. I I I fully tore my left tendon at um D3 Cross National as my junior year, which I s well luckily it was like 400, 200 meters from the finish line, so I was able to finish, and that was my first all-American too. So it was like such a bizarre mix of like this really high moment, but also like in the next week I realized that I wasn't gonna be able to run for like months. So again, kind of a high, high, low, low. But um, so that was kind of the left side. Ultimately, I didn't need surgery then and got back into it eventually, but I'd already been running that high mileage and I knew it had worked, and so I still tried to rush back into it, and I think that was that was when like the right one started going as well. And like I really didn't allow the left one to heal completely during my college years, and so um it it that led to me like taking a ton of time off after graduating and just getting into biking more seriously, which has had like a super positive impact on my athletic career. But but yeah, I mean the last two years of college being so injured year and a half, I guess, was like a really tough time because I just been feeling like like I said, like I got better every year and I was running more every year, and then to just feel like and I'd never been injured because I my running career was so short by that point, then be injured for like so long was like a really, really tough time. But uh yeah, we I spent a lot of time on the altar G that that spring, and um yeah, my senior year was kind of a bummer because you you plan of course like this perfect season for yourself when you're just like riding these highs, and then I didn't end up racing that much senior year, but luckily I was still able to start um cross-nationals and yeah, somehow like a ton of altar G miles like paid off again um for that reason.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

That's insane. Oh man, dude, how did how did trails come into the mix? Like at what point in time was like 15, 16, you you ran your first trail? At least that's what I saw on Ultra Sign Up. But yeah, when did you start getting the itch for that?

Trail Running Breakthrough And Boulder Years

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I had moved to Minneapolis um for my first job out of college, and um there's like a park there that a friend of mine had recommended I go to, Afton State Park, um, which I know Justin Greenwald also runs a lot at. He had like I remember also seeing like on Strava at the time, like, who's this guy that can like run so freaking fast out here? But anyway, so that was kind of my first foray into like running a little more um on trails more intentionally, but also like growing up in Appalachia and Tennessee, I did run on trails. It was just kind of like I didn't know that trail running was like a sport, and even like in Minnesota, like trail running, there was like a Minnesota State champ for trail running at Afton, but it was never like I never thought it was like a global phenomenon or anything like that. Um but I was still interested in running and I was I was still trying to run at a high level, and um my teammates and I from college, as well as like everyone else who's on this site, uses use this really outdated logging site called Loggerun. And um Noah Dradi also used that site, even as a professional, and so we just were like obsessed with Noah. We were like, see these insane workouts all the time, and um I remember that the it it has like a messaging feature for an activity, and I had I think I just messaged him on log run like something, and we became like a little close, and he was like, Hey man, like if you are serious about like getting into running or like running at a higher level, like come out to Boulder and stay with me and just like see what it's all about. And so I had I had I had taken like a trip out to see him. I was like instantly hooked on Boulder, and then I was just like, Man, how can I like get out here? Like I have to just somehow get out here. And so I I applied at my job. I would like talk to my manager to see about um telecommuting. It wasn't remote at the time, it was telecommuting, and so he was like, Yeah, it's fine with me. And so I moved out to Boulder that summer must have been 2018 or 2019, and um Noah didn't have a spot at his house, but he was like, Hey, I know this guy who has like spots at his house that kind of like rotate for athletes. Maybe you could stay with him, and that was Andy Wacker, and so I ended up staying at Andy's house. Um, and I had just gotten off of like a vacation with my parents in Banf, and I'd done some running up there, and Banff is like so amazing, beautiful, and was doing like a little trail running up there, and then I moved in with Andy, and um he was like, Oh, why don't you like go on this run with me? And we went up to Brainerd, and I was like, This is exactly what I did on vacation, like it's the exact same thing, and I and when I was on vacation, I was like, Oh man, it's so beautiful, but like this is not my everyday life. But here I was in Boulder and I was like, man, I could make this my everyday life and training. And so at the time I was like kind of you know testing the waters with a little like short course and 70.3 triathlon, but he took me on that one run to Brainerd and I was like, no, I'm doing trail running, and so that was kind of the trail running um switch.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah, that's crazy, man.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

And he was also and and more important, not more importantly, but he was also like a pro with Nike, who is like Nike was paying him to run on trails, and so it was like here it here is a path, like this exists, which was also very new to me at the time.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah, it's insane to me to think like how many careers Andy has like had his hand in and like showed so many people like it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I mean, the joke used to be like if you lived in Boulder, like even the people living in Boulder, like there was a 30% chance you lived with Andy at some point, you know what I mean? Like an athlete of any kind, like lived with Andy at some point, and that was before like all the trail team stuff. It was just like him just like helping people like get their footing in Boulder, yeah. So it it is like amazing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

So crazy. How long did you stay in Boulder for?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Um, I was there for three years, I think. Um, it is Andy's house, is also where I met Lindsay. Okay, she moved in as a housemate, so that was also um good timing and convenient. But Lindsay and I moved out of Andy's place like around um or during COVID. And um, that's when we eventually moved to Tallyride. Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

No, it makes sense. Dude, it's so crazy to me because I can remember watching it, might have been the 2020, it was either 21 or 22. I think it was the October year when Broken Arrow. There was like they moved the VK and the 23K to October. And I think I remember seeing you on the I I think that was the year you either got second or third. I can't honestly can't remember. Um, you've bought you've run it so many years, but you've had so many fantastic finishes. But I remember seeing you on the live stream and I was like, damn, this kid came out of nowhere. It's like had like some serious finishes, both at the 23 and the VK. So it's just interesting to me, like how you kind of jumped into the sport and have had I'd call you, especially. I mean, dude, we're like five years on now at this point. Like you're one of the most consistent athletes on the sub Ultra scene, like easily, in my opinion. Um, what do you think is the because especially you've dealt with dealt with so many injuries, what do you think is like the secret to your consistency and how you've able been been able to do it for so long?

Consistency, 50K Focus, And Training Philosophy

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Um, I think it's just like a little running more generally, which is kind of like the type of running I like to do. And so for like I I have sort of carved out this like space in the like I I love racing VKs, but I've done a lot more in the like 50k distance, and a lot of that is just because of the availability of that type of race, especially domestically. Yeah, but um I think for me, like the 50k is like this like perfect threshold race, which is also, and I was kind of chatting with Johnny about this the other day. We were just like talking about training a little bit. I just love doing like threshold work, like a ton of threshold work. And like in college, I like did a little more speed because that's what you kind of have to do. But like I just love going out for three hours and kind of hammering on the bike or on the run or on skis or like uphill skis, nordic skis, and like a three-hour hammer fest is basically just a 50k race, yeah. And so I think for me, like that's just like it's what I like to do like in training, and so it kind of makes sense that that's also like the race distance I've gravitated towards as well. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And it's led to, I mean, just like so much consistency as well. Like, what what does your training look like now? Like, especially like with the Achilles stuff. Like, do you like obviously have lesser mileage, but more miles on the bike? Like, what does that look like from time to time?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yeah, and it has changed a lot um over the years. It's taken a really long time. Like now I can kind of look back on this older period of my life, but even when I was in Boulder, you just remember this like athlete that you used to be, and you kind of like put that person on a pedestal and are always like striving for that, even if it's not in your best interest. And so I was always kind of like trying to get back to like 120 miles a week, 100 miles a week, and it's taken a long time to like be like, no, that's like how you used to train, but it probably wasn't healthy for you, and there's other things you can do anyway. Um, but yeah, and boulders kind of like split time-wise between cycling and and running. Um like I I remember thinking like kind of my perfect week was like a 15-hour week where seven and a half was running and seven and a half was biking. But now being in Telluride, it's really seasonally dependent. Um and like with the Achilles stuff, I've also like learned over the years that you can still get the work in, even if you're not running, and that health is really like a lot more important than like hitting a number of run miles on the week. And so if I feel like a little niggle or something in the tendon, um, I can just like shut it down for four days and just bike or ski or whatever. Um so my run miles, like my average run miles can be like zero miles a week to like if I had like a really healthy and week in the summer where I was like really excited about every run, I might hit 90 like once or twice, something like that. But a lot of biking and um definitely in the winter, like quite a bit of skiing, also.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Yeah, dude. I think one of the things that just blew me away was last year your post when you came away at eighth at Broken Arrow in the VK. There was this most stacked VK, and like you were pretty candid. You're like, dude, I didn't really train that much. Like I was trying to do like I uh my my Achilles had been blown up. I'd been dealing with this, and you still like had an amazing finish and such a stacked field. It's bananas.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

That race was so far off my radar because yeah, like you said, I was planning on having had Achilles surgery like weeks before that race. But there's like there's like a local uphill race in Telluride called the Skeedela in the winter and the Rundala in the summer, which is just the gondola um ascent course. And I did the winter one knowing that I was gonna have that surgery, and I was kind of like, well, if my Achilles like, if I blow up my Achilles during this, who cares? I'm like gonna get surgery in two weeks anyway. And then I did that race and had a like a long cooldown back to the parking lot, and I was like, my Achill neither Achilles like hurt at all during that. And then so I just like canceled the surgeries, and I was kind of just like that. I mean, that whole year, that VK at Broken Air was the start of it, was just like we're just gonna be like really cautious, but if things feel good, like maybe we'll jump into a couple races, yeah. Um, and that was the kickoff, but but again, yeah, that whole winter was just was all because I had taken I like really messed it up in the in the fall, or maybe even the spring. And so I took like a ton of time off. I don't think I'd run for for months, four months or five months, something like that. Um, and that whole winter, and it was all just cross-training or you know, skiing and biking. So that again just proves like that proves that like you don't need to run a ton of miles to like be good at running.

Footwear Choices And Tendon-Friendly Gear

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, that's fucking nuts, dude. How you were able to produce like and you had a great season. I mean, like, I know probably not to your standard, but like still, like, even what you did at speedgoat was insane. Like, you had so many solid finishes that like and then you go and win Kodiak, it's like, come on. So, my thought where I'm going with this is like, do you plan to still have the surgeries at some point, or are you just gonna keep rolling?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

I think, I mean, unfortunately, with Achilles stuff, like if you get the surgery, there is a good chance that you will be able to fix whatever problem you have, but you also sort of like diminish your ultimate like max capacity that you can put the tendon through. Okay, so it is kind of like a delay as long. And that's what that's kind of the like calculus I was doing for those surgeries to begin with, which was like, what is my like life outside of running like? Because I wasn't even running and I would still wake up in pain and have to like hobble around the house for three hours before it like warmed up enough to walk normally. And so I was like, if that's happening, like it doesn't matter if I can only run at 80% capacity, but like I can't live my life like this anymore. Um so that's kind of like what I'm still thinking. But again, like I seem to have like sort of been able to figure out what is keeping it at bay right now and possibly have healed it, we'll see. But um interesting for the time being, I I'm not thinking about surgery. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Have you so that's an interesting question too? Like, have you gone to a bunch of PTs to get this thing like figured out? Like people playing around with it and seeing like, all right, maybe I can I I have a good buddy of mine, shout out to Ace, who just like he just got calcane, he had a growth on his calcaneus, and he had to get that thing chipped off. Um just a hagland surgery.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

So I see a lot of people with stuff like that, but if it's just the tendon, I feel like maybe there's ways around that or haglins is yeah, you definitely like need to get you need to remove that part of the bone to have the tendon like move smoothly over it. But yeah, a I would say like a lot of time with PTs, but more time is just like scouring the depths of the internet because like even when I was in college and this first happened, at least at our school's PT clinic, to me, it didn't seem like there was any understanding of the differences between like midpoint and insertional tendonitis, okay, let alone like tendinopathies. And so, like a lot of I've I've just like learned so much about the Achilles tendon and like what has worked for me. Like in college, it was um it was midpoint, but since graduating, both of them are are insertional, and that is like a little more severe. You get a lot less blood flow down um at the heel bone, but they're completely different strategies for how you're gonna like repair or like even make the pain go away for for midpoint versus insertional. So even learning that years ago was like an unlock for me. Um and then there are like Fortunately, now there is like kind of this explosion of this um, you know, like well-rounded athlete on like Instagram and YouTube hybrid athletes. And as a result of that, you also see like a little more like PT content, or at least that's what my Instagram feed is. It's kind of this, and so there are like more people are talking about more ways to like stay healthy in a holistic way, and as a result, you kind of see some more of that. But yeah, it was a lot of years of just like reading a ton of like PubMed and just like reading any research article on tendons generally that I could like try to understand, but um, but yeah, and and that's what I I I feel like I've coached a lot of people through Achilles injuries at this point. Like people will reach out to me all the time, like, I just had this flare up, what do you think? Like, how's it gonna go? And I try to just save people those like hundreds of hours of research that I did and just like tell them exactly what's working. But yeah, I think there's still there's still like interesting findings coming out of like tendon health and strength. Um, but hopefully the Achilles one is gonna be, at least for me personally, like a bygone era.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Oh, dude, I'd love to hear that. Well, I gotta ask you this then. Are you do you spend a lot of time in the gym? Like, or do you do a lot of lifting and stuff like that? Or plyo?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

I don't do any any plyos or lifting. And it's not something that I like recommend to people at all. I just like I haven't carved out the time, or I like you know, I'd almost rather if I have like if I went for a two-hour run in the morning and I have two hours in the evening, like I'd rather just like go bike for two hours. Makes sense. And I know that doesn't make me like the best athlete that I could be, but like it's just like more fun to do that.

Sponsorship Landscape And Frustrations

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Dude, more power, whatever works for you, man. Everybody's got their own their own way of getting to a race. So, you know, some people like for instance, dude, Cam. Cam spends like five hours in the gym a week. The kid's a monster.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah, I have seen some of his videos, yeah, and they get pretty, and it's not to say that I don't want to spend time, it's just like you do have a limited amount of hours in the day, and it's kind of just a trade-off. But um, but yeah, there's not that's not to say that like Cam also, I don't know what his weekly hours is, but he certainly skis a ton. Like, there's no shortage of fun factor in his life, also. It's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

All right, dude. Let's I gotta get to uh the aiming thing I've been trying to like. I this is something conversation I've wanted to have with you for a while, especially on the podcast. So to me, you are one of the most, like I said, I said this earlier, you're like one of the most consistent athletes that there is in the sport. I it is dumbfounding to me as to why you don't have a sponsor yet. What like what do you think? And like, are you looking for one right now?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely looking. I if you can figure out an answer, you just feel free to message me any time of the night or day. But um, yeah, I think the sport has like changed a little bit. Obviously, there's like a lot of conversation around um like what you're doing on your social channels, and even at that like pro-influencer kind of graying of the line, like I think, and and I should say also like my background is in um marketing and brand analytics, and so like I totally understand that like a brand might want to like be paying someone who has like 10x more eyes than like a pro athlete. Um, so I understand that narrative, but it is like a little frustrating to feel like you've done everything right in some ways and are still kind of just like coming up like just short, or you know, there's also like like I don't know how many conversations you you've had with athletes around like contract renewals or things like that, but there is like a timing window, and there's there's like a budget window, and there's a team fit, and who's the athlete manager, and what are they personally looking for, and how are they biasing like what kind of team they're building and how how does that person fit with the brand? And there's like a million factors, and so yeah, for some reason just hasn't lined up for me, but um I can certainly understand um all of those viewpoints, and especially in isolation, but yeah, kind of when you like step back for for me personally, not to get too like just focused on me. I I do sometimes be like, man, how am I like how am I still not sponsored? Or like how or what can I add more value to the brand? And I did like have a little stint with Speedland, and that was kind of on more like an I would not call that like really a sponsorship in the way that we're talking about it, is more of like an ambassador level type of thing. Um but and and they were at the time like they really just wanted a lot of content, and and it's not to say that they were like hard to work with or anything anything, but um it was kind of just like I I understood what they needed as like a really young brand at the time, but and maybe that's that's part of what makes like a good pro athlete to begin with, is either like having the availability, or maybe your partner is into photography, or your group of friends take a lot of photos during your training runs, but like that's how you can just like pump out like a ton of content, and then and now I think that is like very important to brands. I think maybe we're having like slightly more nuanced conversations about partnerships and sponsorships now, but at least like as early or as more as recently as a year or two ago, like it seemed to me like people just wanted like a shit ton of content, which is totally fair. I mean, if that's and again, like if that's what their marketing manager wanted, if that's what their brand manager wanted, like that's still fine. Or even like I mean, you can have the same conversation around like like satisfy, you know, they're they're like going for a certain brand aesthetic, and I don't think they're like really all that interested in the like performance piece. They don't really care if you were like second or a hundredth, but like what story can you tell over those 200 miles that you ran? Like that is what's valuable to that brand. And so there are there are these nuances, of course, that that change with each brand, but um but yeah, I I'm definitely I'm would love to be sponsored. I think that and that's that's kind of a a growing or not a growing, but um a maturing of myself as an athlete, like out of college or whatever. That was kind of like that was the dream, and or that was like that was a piece of the dream that was so major that you couldn't like have something without that component. And I've definitely like matured to the point where it's like no, I'm like really just like interested in trail running and I'm interested in the lifestyle of just like being an endurance athlete and what it can unlock for me. And I'm gonna keep doing that whether or not I have a certain shirt on or wearing a certain pair of shoes or things like that. But but yeah, I mean for a lot of people, like maybe not for a lot of people, but at least that was like my like really deep craving was to have this sort of like honestly just stamp of approval to be like you are this good, and this is like a company that's telling you that you are, and you can kind of take that out. But but yeah, I think I think you do gain more confidence and mature a little bit as you as you go older. And and that's not to say that people can't do that until they cross 30, but like I know there's a lot of mature young athletes out there as well. But for me, it took like a long time to to sort of separate those two worlds and and really um you know, not be not angry, but just like yeah, disappointed or confused or lost, or I mean, even last year, like I really thought I remember thinking like during Kodiak, if I win this, like I'll be sponsored.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

And then it was just like crickets.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Well, dude, I I said this to Lindsay offline after I had her on the pod last week, and I was like, it's just like one of those things is like, what else do you want from me? Like, what else do you want me to do? You know, I think that was the frustrating aspect of it. It was like, you know, you go and win Kodiak, you've beaten quite an like quite a number of already sponsored athletes, many of your peers. You're widely respected by your peers. I just find it frustrating. Like, if it was me, I'd be very frustrated because it's like, what else do you want from me? You know, like I can I can clearly do this, I can clearly do all these different things. It's like why I and there is a lot of athlete managers that listen to this podcast. So hopefully, hopefully something comes out of that. But like, you know, I I don't know. I think it was worth the conversation, mostly because one, for the way I feel, and two, because you wrote this like beautiful Instagram post, man, that was just like, and I think a lot of like I know Kieran Nay commented, quite a few uh guys that I think peers that really respect you, you know, really understand that because I think a lot of guys are in a similar position, you know.

Mindset, Gratitude, And Race Nerves

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Yeah, and I mean it's it's tough as well, because like I said, like either that was like a race that was too late on the year, or like you know, roster spots were already filled, that sort of thing. But it's also like if you're a brand, like you might just be like more interested on like signing a young person who can like knock it out of the park, like and almost to a certain extent, like you could say that consistency is like a negative. And I I've thought about that as well, is like what do brands actually want to see? And you might want to as a brand, like you might not really care about like a dozen second place finishes at a bunch of 50ks, like you might just want to see like four DNFs and one win at like an insane race, because that's the thing they can talk about more, you know, lots of stuff. And so, yeah, and so it yeah, it's it's a little frustrating to feel like you're not rewarded in that way, but um, but again, I understand the perspective from from a brand, or at least that's my speculative understanding. Like I I don't know for sure, of course, but yeah, it's tough. I mean, yeah, Kieran, I remember when I was first like really getting into really getting into mountain running um in Boulder, and I was pretty young, and we must I he must be like a year or two younger than me. I think he probably just graduated college. Um but yeah, he was he was like racing really well at the Cirque series, and um he had this like you know really good look. He had like the long, like flowing curly hair, like he he had it all. He had the look and everything. And and I think maybe he was on like some ambassadorship with with Solomon at that point or something, but um, but yeah, that's it's he's another great example of someone who it seems like had done all the right things, and then either like he had just not had that one race that someone cared about, or he was just at the wrong time of year or something, and and now and then and that's the problem also if you don't have the momentum, like sponsorship begets sponsorship. And so if you don't have the momentum going for you, it's really tough to like start again from zero um when you feel like you're just kind of like rocking up to a race in a black t-shirt or whatever and just doing your own thing. It's kind of hard to catch people's attention, yeah. Even if you're winning, they're kind of just like, I mean, yeah, yeah, even if you're winning. I think like David Sinclair is like a perfect example of someone who like you know, how long was he unsponsored and how how many insane performances did he have before then? So it's and is his story more of a branding one or like a social media frequency one, but there that's just the point I'm getting at is that there's all these factors that can be at play.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

So he's not athletes. I mean, David Sinclair, just like you, like world class, like world beater, you know, and it's like he's another one that you know, out of the blue this year, I guess signed with craft, but like it took a long time, dude. Like you're saying, like it took, I mean, he was like left Solomon like years ago, and just kind of never signed with anybody and just kind of did his own thing, which is weird, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Which, yeah, I mean to that too, I think from an athlete perspective, it is at least I like really respect the people who are like I don't have this like big team, I'm still gonna like show up and like beat a bunch of people. Like, yeah, I'm still here to race, I'm still like an athlete. So, like, yeah, I think I like respect the hell out of that journey, but it can be frustrating when you're the one living it.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Yeah, no, dude, and I think I really appreciate you being candid about it. Like, I think that was the big question was just like, you know, you wrote this beautiful post, and I think like I said, it resonated with a lot of people, and I I think it was it's a story. Like, your story is one that needs to be told and heard. Like, dude, like I don't want to just say consistency, but like you've had so many top finishes, like on the subultra scene, you're you're a hall of famer at this point, dude. Like, I'm not I'm not joking. Like probably you're probably pretty close. I mean, if you like look at your body of work easily, um, you know, when you're comparing dudes, like like I said, consistency means everything. So it's interesting. Well, let me ask you this, uh, not to pivot too hard, but like what what kind of shoes are you rocking? Like, what do you what are you running these days, uh?

Nutrition, Sweat Testing, And Fueling

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yeah, I mean, after like that was kind of the um an unfortunate piece to kind of getting into that like momentum analogy, which is kind of just like I was with Speedland, which was a shoe that like I really wanted to love, but it just didn't work with my tendon. And I kind of stuck with that for a little too long, and maybe some other factors were at play, but it just like really aggravated it. So I'm like very particular about footwear now. I think like and I've tried I think it's yeah, kind of funny also, like living in Telluride, we don't we have like one like mountain shop that has like some Lost Bow stuff, but you're not like going into SFRC or something like that and like trying out all the cool new stuff. So I'll just do these like humongous orders on running warehouse and just like try out a bunch of shoes and then like send them all back. Um but honestly, for the last couple years for me, nothing is still topping the like Adidas Speed Ultra, which again, like at a certain point, like I know Brian Whitfield, I've seen the Instagram post from him where he like or Lestrava post to like blur out his shoes for no no free or the Nike side, you know what I mean? Like, should I even be pumping up the Adidas on this podcast without getting any kickback? I don't know, but no, that shoe is is phenomenal, and it's very it is a very specific type of shoe. Um, and I think it fits the type of running that I like to do. It's got like a humongous rocker in it, it doesn't have a plate, so that is again like not really beating up your tendon that much. Um stability-wise, has it worked for you? Moderate heel to toe offset. Stability's decent. I mean, I think yeah, there's more stable shoes out there. I'm I'm like a really aggressive forefoot striker also. So there, I mean, you can run in any like flat shoe and it's probably more stable, but the I mean, I think like I hadn't run in a ton of road super shoes before I had run in those, and I've run in some sense, and I still think I would I would potentially choose that shoe for a road marathon over some of the road super shoes on the market. Like, I just think it is that good.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Interesting. I've never tried it on. I have a lot of friends that wear them, but that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

It's I mean, it's it's like probably one of the most unique shoes to try on because the rocker is so aggressive. Wow. But like, yeah, it's it's not comfortable like walk around in the parking lot the first time you put it on, but when you like start running, and again, like if you have a very certain type of um stride, yep, some people are gonna like it and some people are really not gonna like it.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Do you run like like what did you wear when you like ran Broken Arrow last year? Did you run in the Agravics as well? I probably did. Interesting. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Either the either that or the speeds, but I probably the agravics, yeah. Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

I gotta one thing going back to sponsorship, I forgot to ask you. Like, I know you're you have a relationship with like Dylan Bowman. Has he been like a mentor for you over the years?

SPEAKER_00 55:51

A little bit, yeah. I mean, I think I I don't know if I would say mentor so much as kind of like a a friend. I suppose like anyone can be a mentor to you in like some capacity. But um no, I mean he yeah, funny, yeah. This is actually kind of funny. I I was on Speedland before Dylan was, to be clear. But uh no, I mean when he came over that that really like projected that company and gave them like an insane visibility, and it seems like it's been a pretty amazing partnership um for both of them, both both parties. But but no, yeah, uh run with him today. He comes out like we ran with him at Hard Rock last year every now and then. I yeah, I don't know if it's like a mental relationship, but I appreciate that he is like open to run with me uh every now and then or reply to a dumb text or something like that. Um he's recently been like a little more vocal about like um mindfulness and mental health and coming at it from an angle that I have sort of also like approached it. And so we've had some conversations about that, but um but yeah, I think he's just like a phenomenal personality for the sport and not just personality, but he's like put in the work to grow the sport. Um so yeah, I respect the hell out of him.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Let's talk let's talk about the mental health piece of it. I I this is something I've actually been trying to approach lately, and I think a lot about is the mindfulness, like especially in our type of sport, like there's only one winner. Obviously, there's three people on a podium. It's very hard to do very well, right? So you put in a ton of work, a shit ton of work, and you hope that you're gonna shine on race day, right? And make it happen. When it comes to the mental health perspective, like how do you deal with that? Like, how do you kind of center yourself to not think about the result and rather just like go and show up and do your thing on race day?

Supplements, Recovery, And Cost–Benefit

SPEAKER_00 57:40

I don't know if I would have said this had you not prefaced the tennis piece, but I think like having that little background of like like tennis matches are like as much a mental battle as a physical one, and so that is like a piece of it where you kind of like tennis more so, like you're directly against one other person every single match, and so it's like win or lose every time there. So I think like I have that is sort of my like background, then comes like collegiate or yeah, high school, a little like one year of high school and then four years of collegiate running, where you're running for time and positions, and that's really like you can be I mean you can win a track race and be upset with your time still in college, you know what I mean? But but that's like so that's like another level of kind of a like a negative for running, and then so when I moved to trails, it's like a totally different thing, and I think this is what draws a lot of people to trail and why we're seeing like a lot of um interest and participation in the sport is like while it is competition, it's as much about like finishing or like conquering the race as it is about like where you finished, and so for me, I wouldn't say like the pressure is off, but the pressure is also like less than it has been at these other points of my life, and I've also like am looking at it through a different lens with like if you I don't know how much you scrolled back. I I at the at the beginning of last year, I kind of started making more of these posts just about like gratitude for going to these races because I did I wasn't expecting to be able to do that kind of anymore, or certainly in this capacity, and so I'm obviously I'm like definitely looking through like a very grateful lens into how I'm racing now, and and I think that is helping performance also. But um, but yeah, I think trail I think trail has the opportunity versus like some other endurance sports to for for people to like be a little more satisfied in the result no matter where they finish. So I I don't know if that's kind of what you were looking for, for that's that's how that's how I view trail running, trail and mountain running right now. Um whether or not that's everyone's experience, I don't know, but I think it has that opportunity. To do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

So when you're standing on a start line like next to Eli Heming, David Roche, and Johnny Lunalima, right? Like, do you get nervous to race these people? Or like are you just like, no, like I'm gonna make this happen? Like, how does it how do you feel on race morning or on the start line?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

I mean, it depends on the time of year. With that race, especially coming out of winter, I think I'd kind of got to this earlier, is like I haven't really seen any of these people in like a really long time. Like, yeah, there's no like training camp in Telluride in the middle of winter, and I'm certainly not leaving Telluride, even though I'd want to, like, a lot of these people see each other all the time in Boulder or whatever, but for me, it's like kind of an exciting time to like see your friends again and kind of see how because that's the thing too. When you come out of Telluride, even in the summer, you're not really sure how fit you are compared to people who have been training lower because all of your workouts are like really nothing looks good in Telluride. You're not running any fast times, like you're not running any fast gap times or anything like that. So for me, it's usually excitement, especially for those first couple of races of the season. Um, in the past, I would definitely probably like get a little more nervous um for a race that maybe I thought mattered um a lot. But there there's also times like at Kodiak you mentioned, I kind of I think I'd done enough racing. That was like one of my last races of that season, and I knew the shape I was in, and that race was like just kind of like I know the shape I'm in, and if nothing goes wrong, I should be able to win this. So it depends on the time of year, whether or not I have like confidence, excitement to see friends. Big altar the pressure was also like really off for me, at least I felt because of having that sickness where it was kind of like if I run well here, that's amazing. If I don't run that well, it was expected. So that one was like a lot more fun for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

How do you how do you view competition? Are you a competitive person?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

I I think yes, but I'm also like a pragmatist. I I understand like what my strengths and weaknesses are too, and so like there are certain races where certain races like suit me and others don't, and I might be more competitive at the ones that do, or there's like parts of the course that are like I am like more competitive on, but um I I don't know. I've I've heard like some some of these, not necessarily on your podcast, but just like an at the interview style. I think some people are like a lot more competitive than I am, or I I think I'm more competitive with myself than I am with like another person. But some people are like really out for like that personal competition, and that's not really like my style so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

Gotcha, gotcha. No, and I think it's a healthy place to be in. Like I've met I've talked to some psychos. So some people are on another level. I'm just like, damn. Like I thought your brains wired a little differently. I was like, wow, like I don't know if running is the sport you should be in. It might be some should be something else, yeah. Um all right, so let's roll this into uh 2025. And you've got broken arrow on deck. You'll be I I know you're signed up for the VK or the Ascent, I should say, and the 46k. Are you planning on starting both of those?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah, definitely. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Is the obviously intentions and goals change. Obviously, both of those are selection races for worlds. Would is worlds possible, like do you is that a goal I should say?

Inspirations, Community, And Media

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

I mean, I think it's like a it's a stretch goal, but I I'm not expecting to make that team at all. I think like if I have the best day of my life, and then you know what is it gonna be? 60% of the field like somehow doesn't have the best day of their life or has a worse than average day, that's kind of the only way I'm like making that team. But um, no, I think it'll just be exciting to kind of I've actually never raced the 46k at Broken Arrow, only the 23k um a number of years ago. And so I'm just kind of excited to do that course. I I'm like excited for that course. I think it can could suit me, especially if the snow melts decently quickly this year. Um and then I just I do love racing VKs a lot, so I don't know. I think I'm just excited for both distances, and the competition should be really deep in both both events, so it'll be exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Yeah, it's gonna be bananas. Do you and this is a personal question, I can cut this out if not. If if broken arrow doesn't go the way you want it to go, like will you because I know there's applications as well. Do you think you might apply from because I think you got a good shot, dude, on some of the vertical stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Yeah, I uh I don't know. Uh I I hadn't considered submitting an application for either distance, actually. Um it just seems more likely that it would be like if Cam or Eli didn't make it, they would get chosen on application anyway. Or yeah, and I don't really see a world where neither of them make one of those distances, and then so yeah, I I I suppose I should just submit an application just to like check my uh you know bases, but but no.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

All right, think about it. You never know. I don't dude, I don't think Eli's been very vocal about wanting to go. I don't know if he's like really stated that goal or said anything about it. Like, I think is he just more focused on CCC? CC is the goal this year, which means interesting that kind of takes him off the board. So I don't know. I think there's opportunities there that people might not be seeing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

And people have different, yeah, different things, but I don't know. Worlds only comes once every two years. CCC's gonna keep being there. So that's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

What else uh besides broken arrow? Um, like do I what was it? There's like a there's a Tahoe race, like a Leadville Tahoe or like Leadville based Tahoe race, is that it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Yeah, um so yeah, Lindsay and I, like I said, we kind of spent a lot of time here, and I've biked a lot of that course, um, just on a mountain bike and gravel bike, and I know I would probably like something like that. So I did sign up for it, and yeah, it does have that Leadville qualifier with it, so that's something I'm interested about. So yeah, that that Tahoe race, yeah, so yeah, it does have it does have a Leadville component. Um and after last year's kind of like second second chance in the sport, um, I've like floated this to a couple people, so it's it might it's I think fine now, but I'm interested in running Leadville, yeah. And so that would be like a huge step out into the unknown, but it would be that's kind of my my like a goal when I like started setting it out, I was like, okay, or I guess not a goal, but like way stretch goals, like you somehow make the world's team, then you should focus on that. But then I was like, I guess my B goal is like run Leadville 100, and so that so it'd be yeah, pretty crazy, but I think like again, going back to like the ASUs and the type of running I like to do and the fact that I live at 9,000 feet is like that's Leadville. Yeah, and so I think that course could like suit me really well. Um, I'm definitely interested in it. It's something that you know it's got a ton of lore. I knew about it in college before I knew trail running is a thing. You still know about Leadville. Um and even back then it had piqued my curiosity. So yeah, I'm I I'm interested in it could be it could be a crazy summer if I if I do that. Um yeah, I I'm like I'm definitely nervous about that. I just did um McDowell 50. That's the longest race I've done. I did that last year, and it was not without problems. So I don't I have like a lot to figure out slash figure out during the race um if I did it, but I don't know, it would be crazy. And I kind of feel like like I was saying earlier, like I have had this sort of like second chance at this sport, and again, like spent a lot of time in when I was 29, just like doing a ton of reflecting, and it is kind of like what else do you want to do? Like, you're not gonna have every opportunity unless you like start taking them. And I was like, Yeah, I I do want to run this race, so no time like the present and not getting any younger, etc. Let's do it, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

I love to hear it, man. Uh, speak that one to existence. I can't wait to I hope you well, obviously you'll probably get in, but like I can't wait to see that happen, bro. Like that it's gonna be that's pretty sick.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah, it'd be crazy. We'll see. We'll see. I recently just got this like new job, and I think I'm gonna have like my hours working like skyrocket. So I'm a little nervous about that. Um, but again, I think if you just care care about something enough, like I'll I'll find the time to train and do it. Yeah, if you want bad enough, you'll you'll get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Yeah. What uh dude, what's nutrition figuring out for you? Like, are you are you big into like solving that puzzle or is that kind of I have I have recently been like really interested in it.

Goals: Broken Arrow, Worlds, Leadville

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

Last year, I like got nauseous at like a ton of races and couldn't like didn't really figure it out, was thinking it was all these other factors. Um and I have been with NAC since this is I must be like two years and a little bit at this point. Um and and I will use their product like all the time in training, but sometimes not always in racing. Um, it wasn't until the release of this like boost line that they had like a pure carb option anyway. There's often like protein and fat in their stuff, which didn't really work with me, um, especially during like a high intensity effort. Yeah, and so yeah, recently, again, not sponsored, but Lindsay, my partner, has been working with um Vic, the nutritionist that like is very famous, getting more and more famous. And he was like, Oh, you like need a better sweat test, like you should check out this age drop thing, which I don't know if you've heard about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like a monitor you can wear. Um, yeah, and so we've kind of been sharing that. And the first couple of sessions, I realized that my sweat rate was like incredibly. I mean, people have higher sweat rates. Like, I know Patty O'Leary has like an insane sweat rate, but my sodium is really, really high. And so I've been yeah, experimenting with getting like a little more sodium um while I'm racing or just training as well. And so far that seems to be helping a lot. And yeah, I'm also sort of like pushing the upper limit of what I thought I could take carb-wise. I just saw that um, which for me is like like McDowell, for example, and I think like the first couple hours of Big Alta, I was like around 140 grams per hour, maybe a little higher. Um, but I just saw that Cam Worth during his like Iron Man split did like over 200 an hour. Jesus. So I mean, like, it's like yeah, it's it's possible to do like a high carb something. And that's not to say that it is like I know carb stuff changes with like body size, body composition. So it's not like every single person listening to this podcast should be like, I'm gonna try to like get as many carbs as I possibly can. Like, you should still do the testing, but yeah, it's been kind of interesting to see that you can at least that I can take more than I I thought I could. And even as recently as a year ago, I was not taking anything near this amount of sodium or carbs.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Interesting. Yeah, it's crazy like the progression that we're seeing in our sport now, people actually starting to figure out like what's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

Yeah, it's like meteoric, honestly. Yeah, yeah. And even I should credit Johnny because I remember I was having like a gel before the rut, and he was like, you know, that has no sodium in it, right? And I I didn't have any idea that it did it didn't have any sodium. So he kind of like started kicking off me like thinking more about this, and then yeah, it was really like Lindsay and Vic that were she's been like doing a ton of work behind the scenes, and um yeah, I was kind of like a man, I should probably try to figure this out a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:57

Dude, Johnny is one of the most like technical and like savvy and like dialed humans I've ever met in my entire life.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:04

Yeah, he definitely, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

Yeah, like very I was very interested to talk to him. Like he's got like a did he like post like I don't know, he put up something like a couple months ago about like some sleep thing he uses, like some sleep mask that like he's just a very dialed human. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

Even even when we were living, so Johnny also lived in that house with Andy during our overlap with Lindsay and I. Yeah, um, but yeah, even back then I know he was he was like experimenting with some like recovery stuff and like red light therapies and things like that. So yeah, I think he he is dialed, but he's also like curious, you know, he's curious to try new stuff. I'm less so on like the that sort of thing, but I'm like I will try out any supplement that is safe sport.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Yeah, but I'm curious about like taking what do you what do you what's on the stack?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

Nothing crazy right now, but yeah, I'm on kind of just like um like a sleep stack and tar cherry pills right now. I also a big unlock, maybe unlock, maybe just pure placebo. Um is the Swiss Rx, has like a tendon pack. I have been like using that for the last couple years, um, sort of on and off. But yeah, big on creatine, iron for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

You take creatine. Do you really does that does this like bother your muscles at all, like with holding water or not holding water?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

No, I mean that's yeah, I'm still amazed. There've been so many studies on creatine, and there's still in endurance sports this like huge stigma against taking creatine because they're like, oh, you don't just gain so much weight. Like on a five gram dose, you're not gonna gain any weight. You might great you might gain one pound, but it's nothing. Yeah, but more importantly, I mean back to like creatine is also like really good for mental health because it's it supports your brain too, so uh or for like depression. So even it's just like a good supplement to like add to your to your daily sex anyway. But um, no, I mean it's the longest studied supplement in in modern history. There's like basically no side effects at the doses that are being recommended. So I I can't recommend it enough. Not to not because it has like such insane benefits, but just because it is so safe, it's like it would be and it's so cheap compared to like a lot of other things. Like people should just try it. Yeah, no, dude, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

I mean, from what I've read on it, like it's supposed to, if you get like a terrible night's sleep, it's supposed to like completely like wipe that away and like some like it's the neurocognitive benefits are supposed to be insane on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

I I haven't heard too much about creatine for sleep, but um, but I won't I won't uh argue against anything until I've read a paper that says otherwise. It's it's it's supposed to be like marrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Dude, you know, I've been I take um oh man, I do you know just like the little things. Like I just started taking more vitamin D and zinc, and just like what that does to your immune system, like yeah, it's like so.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

Zink though, zinc though, you do have to be a little careful because if you're trying to use it to get over a sickness, if you've already been loading with zinc, then your body will respond to it like much sl much more slowly. Really? So, but I mean for daily health, like it's fine, but like if you're like, oh, I I like just got a cold or I feel like I have a cold coming on, time to like slam a bunch of zinc, but you're already taking zinc in a multi in like a medium to high dose, like it's gonna have like a tiny effect. Yeah, good to know. So that's kind of just like a but it's not to say don't take zinc as a multi, that's just like a cautionary zinc thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

Yeah, do you know the brand First Endurance? Yeah, I take what is it, the optimum HP? It's like a VO2 booster with like beta.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:29

Yeah, I I uh at one at one time I was stacking um optogen HP, um Swiss RX, nitric oxide, and uh alt-red beet pills, and that was like too much. But and I would only do that kind of like around race times, but that is kind of like a let's like leave no stone unturned type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

Do you but again like any performance benefit from it? Like, I I'm it's hard for me to tell what's just the optimum HP.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

I don't know. I mean, there's so much beta alanine in that, like you can feel your skin tingling, but like is that gonna do anything for endurance sports? I don't I don't really know. Yeah, and that that again is like I kind of like try to live my life through the pro con list, which we've like talked about already. But yeah, if you like start putting the cost of like all this uh into a spreadsheet and you're kind of like, well, what benefit am I getting? And did I really just spend$500 last month on supplements? Like, what am I doing?

Music, Big Questions, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

It's so true, it's so expensive. Like, dude, that optimum HP alone's like$80 a month. Like it's and then the multivitamins and the same thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

Yeah, for it's the same thing like with athletic greens. Like, do you ever try athletic greens? I take it all the time, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

Yeah, well, it's the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Yeah, I took it. I'm like, yeah, I noticed a difference, but did I notice a hundred dollars a month worth of difference? Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

No, no, if they get you on the shipping, man. If they just charged me 70, I think I'd be happier with that. But I gotta hit up Hayden Hawks, gotta have him send us some some some. I think he's like the only athlete now on the trail scene, like actually sponsored by them. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Um, that's another that's another space I could talk a lot about for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

Uh dude, I I I'm gonna have to like send you some DMs and like pick your brain on this.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:07

Like, I um performance enhancement like any way you can from like the natural stuff, like I'm always interested in it because it's well and it's it's funny too to like talk about like performance enhancement in terms of like percentages or things like that, because then you like I mean during the like initial superstitio era, it was like you're gonna get like four percent running economy benefit, and then like how much can you get from supplements, or how much can you get from like strength training, or like how much can you get from just like an extra five hours of aerobic work? It is kind of fun to like yeah, do that little Tetris game and see what works for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:40

Maximize your yeah, no, it it's interesting. All right, dude. I gotta get into um let's get into some ending questions. I'm very curious who inspires you?

Outro, Follows, And Promo Code

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

Yeah, so I I was prepared for this one. This is one of the things I prepared for because I listened, like I said, I kind of like listen to a ton of your podcasts over the last two days just getting ready, and then I started like going through who actually inspires me. It's it's different people for different things, but then it just got so out of hand. I don't know if I should just like run through this. Dude, take it. I have like literally 30 people here, or if I should just like pick a couple top ones. Um, but I I divided first I I I put competitors, and I think my my like three right now are just like Eli Cam and Seth are kind of like as a they're like my inspirational competitors, I think. And yeah, Eli, I think, because he just is so uh kind and down to earth, and then is still and is so good, like it's almost like it's it's crazy. But yeah, I I think he's like a really amazing human, and obviously what he's doing in the sport is like so fantastic. So I yeah, it it he like pushes me to be better, you know. Like I want to show up better on race day because I'm like gonna be if I'm gonna be racing Eli type of thing. So he's definitely Cam. I think Cam is always just kind of like my VK competitor. And I I'm just always like I like want to race him more in VKs, I want to be like better than him on VKs, but I also want him to be better than me so he can like pull me to faster time. So and then I think, yeah, the this whole like schemo federation thing, it's been like really fun watching his like journey from social media and seeing him do all these races and kind of trying to make a name for himself and for the United States, um, like over with the big boys in Europe has been pretty pretty cool to watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:36

It's kind of crazy to think he'll probably be an Olympian, like more than likely.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:39

I'd like to I mean we'll see. I think it comes down to like North America only gets a couple spots, and so whether or not Canada sends more people or something like that. I'm obviously don't follow the sport close enough to know exactly how it's shaking out right now, but yeah, it it is it is pretty, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah, I think like recently Seth has been like absolutely crushing it. And I I hate to say that it's surprised me because I think like his like closer friends would be like, well, it didn't surprise me. Like I knew how much how good a shape he was in. But it has surprised me how well he's been running. And why I'm like inspired by it is because I think his approach has been like, don't do like humongous, sexy workouts, like just put in the work and like keep your head down a little bit. And it is tempting, like we were saying at the beginning of this conversation on like Strava FKT stuff. Like, it's tempting to upload that like crazy last rep or whatever, you know, where you're like really doing too much in a workout. And it seems to me like he has not been doing that, and the results have really come. And so, yeah, that's in cool to see. I even I did a little track workout last night um with a group here in in San Francisco, and I was kind of thinking about him during that workout. I was kind of like, well, I could like blast a 400 right now, or I could just like run the speed that I'm actually supposed to be like in control and running for. Um so yeah, those are kind of the those are kind of the three right now that I'm that I'm thinking about on the competitor side of things. Um But yeah, I don't know if you want to spend time, if you want me to blast this list.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

Okay, go for it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

Well, I think Lindsay and I were kind of talking about this at the end of her call. Is I have never not that I know this person personally, um, just from like podcasts and social media and and other news reports, but I have never like experienced a more true profession, professional athlete than Kate Courtney. And I think she is just like such a phenomenal human, and yeah, I think like working professional in the sport, like she defines like professional athlete for me. It's not just someone who's like doing a bunch of reps, like showing up on race day, like she is really like created this like insane brand and is now has this like foundation, and she's really like done more than I think has been like asked of an athlete and is like still seeing the the dividends from it. So I think when you're talking about like yeah, especially like American athletes, Kate Gordon cannot be yeah, cannot be overstated.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:20

I gotta agree with that for sure. That's a good one. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:23

Um yeah, I had a I this is gonna take too long. So I had a couple cyclists on here. Like I said, I'm a like a big, big cyclist, so inspired by like definitely the unbound scene right now. Um both both as it is now and kind of like what also the roots of of the lifetime grand prix started out as kind of some of those athletes. I think um like your audience is gonna be like a little more familiar. Like, I think you always gotta call out Heather Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Just that is the that's kind of like my dream, you know, trajectory, or like it'll probably not trajectory at this point, but gravel racing, like mixing up at the front of like long hundreds, 50k's also, had this like insane Iron Man career. Like, yeah, she is truly inspirational to me as well. So that's kind of like my cyclist of the list. I did put like the Williams brothers on here too. I think they're they've like pushed that should be inspirational to like what trail running is right now. Is like they've really taken the media side of cycling and like they've made crit racing like interesting again. Whether or not they're like still at the forefront of doing that, it you can't like talk about road racing in America right now without them like being on the bubble somehow. That's true, I think. So that's kind of two of them. Ton of runners on here. Noah Dradi, like I already mentioned, as a college student, like reading his workouts and feeling that connection because I was like reading his journal basically, was like I yeah, I can't really state enough how like impactful that was to my development. Um, Andy Wacker, we've already talked a little bit about now with the trail team, especially. But I mean, not only that, he's still having like one of the most amazing road seasons I've seen. So, like, yeah, he he definitely has like the fountain of youth, and and maybe it's a trail team. Maybe it's something about this college kids is keeping it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

How old is he? He's what 36 now, 37, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

He must be, yeah. I remember when we first moved in with him, I I was like at his, it was at the house, but um celebrated his 30th birthday, and now it's kind of like wow, 30, that's like kind of old. And and now, I mean that's always how it goes, right? Like, and then you're five years later, you're 30. Yeah but Hattie O'Leary here in in SF, I think is like has become more of a more for this community than for himself. Just like the projects he's put on and like what he does and is interested in the community. He always like makes me want to be a better community member, both in like my running community and in just like telegrade community more generally. I think yeah, he is he is a great person. I don't know if you've got on him on the podcast though.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:11

I was just literally I was spacing out for a second thinking about I'm gonna send him a DM after this.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:15

Yeah, I mean, because he I think you could spend two hours talking about anything but his running and he and it would be engaging. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, so good. Um, Francesco, I've always been a fan of Francesco, but God, these last like two years of him just coming over and just like tearing it up on American soil, let alone what he's doing in Europe, is so insane. But also just with like the Crow Trailrunner Association and stuff like that. Like he's he's another like professional athlete, like he has made it a profession, not just like an athlete first. So that's good. I had some race directors on here, Brennan Madigan, Mike Foot, Forrest Bugner, like really like it's been pretty crazy to watch the sport grow while you're in it. You know what I mean? Like, my first yeah, I got second or third at either the rudder broken arrow like four years ago when the sport wasn't big. And both of those events have gotten so insane now that like the talent does come there, and like people are coming from the they're foregoing like a road career, they're foregoing a track career to come race the trails, and yeah, I think it's those two events especially have like really made at least in my career, like mountain running very cool and desirable, and not just for the athletes, but like sponsor money too, and that's how the sport grows in general. So sure. Yeah, a couple of race director calls out. Let's see if there's any last ones here. I mean, yeah, there's a lot. We've only hit a third, but I think that's pretty good for for where we are. I did call out like classics, yeah. Jim Court and Katie just like having Americans just like crush it in Europe, I think is like keeps the fire alive here in America. Like, and it also like reverses, you know, when they come back here and like do really well at Western, then it makes like European athletes more interested. Like, yeah, look at West what Western is gonna be this year. And I don't think you can say that it's because like Western is like an awesome race by itself, but like what Americans have done in Europe and also here, and people are now like a little more curious about the American racing scene. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:24

Have you gotten a chance to meet Jim or like chop it up with him at all?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:28

I I have, yeah. We've we've gone on a couple runs together and I've like bumped in him in in different ways, but yeah, he's he's he is inspirational in his own right as a runner out outside of that, but yeah, I think he's pretty funny. I I had a couple of people on here who like inspire me as like such a good athlete that they like transcend the like media requirement to be an athlete, you know? And he's one of them, and Keegan Swenson was my other one on there, but yeah, both of them are just like so good that it's it's almost like them kind of.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:07

Is that what you took away from him? Because I mean you got to race him now, like at Broken Arrow VK. Like, what what did you take away from just like him in general? I'm just very curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

No, I mean it's interesting, and that's kind of the interesting piece too. Like, as athletes do have more media requirements, then you see this other side of them, both like in your interaction. Like a couple days ago, we were sitting down with Lindsay's family um after dinner, and we watched like part of the Walmsley. Jim is, I mean, obviously, he's more than an athlete, but he's just like such a good athlete that he's still kind of like that, he still has like halo status. That even though he is like easy to talk to, and you might like have similarities that he likes gravel biking every now and then, you like gravel biking every now and then, he's still like Jim Walmsley. And so you know, or like, yeah, I mean, just some of the stuff he's done, it is so like yeah, it's weird to be like talking with someone who is like down to earth, or you know, you realize that like the people who've done the most amazing things, they're not thinking about those things anymore, they're always thinking about the next thing, but that doesn't mean that the times they ran and like the stuff they've done still hasn't happened, yeah. You know, so they do like whether they know it or not, they still like carry the weight of what they've done. And so even for me, like powerful, feeling like I'm kind of like chilling out a little bit, I still will get like, yeah, starstruck by Jim Walmsley for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

Yeah, I mean it's crazy, dude. I mean, I've walked down, I mean I have met Courtney, I've walked past her, and I'm like, damn, that's Courtney DeWalter. That's kind of crazy. Like when you talk to these people or meet them, it is kind of weird when you see them in real life. I I I haven't had like too many crazy I'm trying to think of who's the most famous. Well, Joe Gray, but like he's a friend, so it's a little bit different. And like, I don't know. I I'm trying to think of like the most famous people I've found on the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Well, and when you live in the same town, probably that also kind of like makes it seem like he's like just that's just Joe Gray. You know, but I don't have that like I'm still like, God, yeah, he's really like a 40-time US champ or whatever it is, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

He's the goat, man. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it's so interesting. Uh I mean I could ask, I'm just so curious out of this, like, out of every runner you've ever met, like who's your favorite runner's favorite runner? Like, who would you say? Like, mine is Cam. I just like really, like, really love Cam. Like, he's just such an interesting character to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:30

My favorite runner's favorite runner?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:33

Yeah. Like, who's my who is your favorite runner? You could say that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:38

Oh, okay. I don't know. I mean, I think it does it changes on this season. Uh yeah, I don't I don't know. Cam is tough because I feel like I'm like you're like friends with someone. I feel like for me, like a favorite runner has to be like unless you just mean like personality-wise, like who could you who could you like rut? Yeah, then it is like a guy like Cam or someone like that who's like, yeah, even like I yeah, I have a couple good Cam stories. One of them I thought was hilarious was like the day before he won like one of the Rud events, he was like he was literally just sleeping in the woods on the course, like he didn't have a hotel or anything like that. So yeah, I mean, Cam is like, but it but that feels like someone you're friends with, you know what I mean? I think there's still like like some of these like Killian stories or the Anton like early years, like some of that stuff is so impactful as like as a college student or something, like a college runner or just someone who's new to the sport that you have these like insane performances or just like they just feel out of reach. And so something like that, you're I feel like you'll always be pulled to, but that's not to say that you're gonna like even like with Anton or Killian, like you're not gonna want to like necessarily grab a beer with them, but you would like want to hang out with Cam.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:53

That's true, that's very true. I don't know about it. I haven't crossed paths with Anton yet. He's somebody I'd like to have on. Killian just feels out of reach just because he lives on another side of the world, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:02

Everyone, I think everyone inspires you in a different way. I actually I've done like a I did a photo shoot with Anton a couple of years ago. Um and he is like it's tough too, because Anton, like what what comes with like Anton's not baggage, but with his status, I think is his writing and his thoughtfulness. Yeah, and that does come out also. So it's almost like with Anton, you're less like you're less interested in like asking him about like how his fastest green time was and more like or or longs time and more like what is the body of like doing longs over like 15 years like mean to you. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like he has a different weight.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:48

It's weird with him too, dude. You know it's funny. I have a friend, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say it all loud, but like I have a friend that's projecting, possibly going for the Chicago basin FKT this summer. And dude, we like like dissected everything from his like FKT. No one's even fucking close. Like within like it's like bananas, how fast he's run there. So Anton's done some mythical shit, but like, yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:12

Which I mean, yeah, and that's that's an interesting piece of like the athlete versus the performance athlete versus the project athlete. I think there's a space for both of those, but yeah, I mean it's like if you're like interested in mountain stuff and like I I don't know how long he's lived in Boulder, but how many times has he like scoped all that stuff? Like it's crazy to have a route that that that is that long. Like, who else could know that route better?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:38

Like it it is crazy, yeah. He's put in he's put in a lifetime of work to like run some of those times.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:46

It's crazy, it's crazy. So Lindsay said you're the music guy. What's what's the walkout song, man? Like, what's your what's your like favorite song before a race?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:54

Or yeah, Lindsay has like five songs that you just play on repeat like all the time, including her race playlist. Um, but I don't know. I my music tastes do change a lot, they change on the season a lot, but right now, because it's like springtime, I'm like definitely into like a little more hype up stuff. I've been listening to like a lot of um like a little more psych rock, punk rock. Um I would say, do you know the band the Chats? No, no, they're they're like an Australian band. Um, you may they're they kind of had one popular song going around called Smoko on Instagram, but anyway, six liter GTR is is definitely my walkout song right now. I've been listening to that on repeat for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:38

Six liter GTR. Alright, I'm gonna plug that in after this and give it a listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:41

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:43

All right, dude. Last last question. Um, it's usually I ask people either about Bigfoot, aliens, AI, all kinds of crazy shit. It's usually the wonky question. Um But you want me to go with the aliens, dude. Do you believe you believe in aliens?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:56

I think um it seems improbable that there would not be uh other life. What I I but it also seems improbable that it would be a type of life that's like how we've seen it in science fiction. It's probably something that we can't communicate with or might not even recognize. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:15

Oh, that's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

Or it's also so far away that like the human race will be extinct by the time that something is near enough to communicate with another type of life. So what do you think or recognize it?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:27

What do you think people see then? Is it like interdimensional shit, or do you think it's just like phenomenon in the sky?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:32

Like, I mean you What do you mean, like in the 60s, like UFOs?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:35

Everybody's talking about UFOs now. Like, I feel like I see it all over social media. Like, people are like in government.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:39

I think people just don't know what a Starlink satellite chain looks like.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:42

That's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:44

Like people are freaking out like in LA when that went by. Yeah, and then it's just clickbait, and that's what happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:50

Yeah, my dude, my mom sent me a photo of one. They live in South Florida, and like obviously in Florida, like the it's flat, so the sky's pretty illuminated at night. My mom's like, oh my god, we saw UFO, like, nah, it's Starlink satellite. Like, yeah. Well, Ryan, dude, it was such a great conversation, man. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:05

Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. Fun chatting.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:08

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hope this is the first of many. Dude, you microphone's always yours. Would hope to have you back on at some point and wishing you the best of luck in your season, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:15

Thanks very much. Maybe I'll see you at one of these upcoming races. Yeah, it'd be great to meet in person.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:20

Yeah, no, for sure. I'll probably be at all the Cirque series this year. I might be at the rut. Are you gonna you're not probably you're probably not going to the rut this year?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:26

I probably I don't know. We uh Lindsay and I both have such a special connection to the rud that we may go even if we don't race. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:34

I'll hope to bump into one at you. We'll I'll be over there. I'll we'll be in touch. Cool. All right, buddy. All right. See you back. Have a great rest of your day. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Want to thank Ryan so much for coming on the podcast. It was great to have a conversation. And I'm actually really excited for round two. Um, he and I probably could have chatted for at least two and a half hours. And uh yeah, can't wait to do a part two to this one. So really thank you to Ryan and uh excited for where his 2025 is gonna take him. I'm glad he kind of stated some of his goals on the podcast. We'll see if uh we'll see if he goes to Leadville and and does the damn thing. So excited for Ryan. It's gonna be fun to follow along. Guys, before you get going, do me a favor, hop on Instagram. The best way you can support Ryan is to give him a follow on Instagram. You could find him in R underscore Beck Beck Z. Yeah, it's kind of funny. Not Beck Z. I mean you can find him like just type in R underscore B-E-C-K-Z. Um again, that's R underscore B-E-C-K-Z, or type in Ryan Becker on Instagram. And he's the first one that comes up. So give him give him a follow. And uh yeah. Let him know what you guys thought about the podcast and uh the episode and send him some words of encouragement as he takes on some big goals for this year. Uh guys, before we get going, if you happen to enjoy this episode and uh you want to support us, give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube, wherever you guys get your podcasts. Um last but not least, this episode was brought to you by Ultimate Direction USA. Use code SteepSuffPod for 25% off. The new race vest 6 liter and ultra vest 12 liter just dropped. You guys are gonna like them, so check them out. And uh yeah, have a great week, guys.