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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#151 - Tom Hooper, Six03 Endurance
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Money is moving up the mountain, and the Northeast is ready for it. We sit down with Tom Hooper of 603 Endurance to unpack how a new partnership with Marathon Sports unlocks bigger prize purses, stronger production, and a smarter sponsor model that gives each race its own brand identity. Sunapee Scramble returns as the U.S. Mountain Running Championship with a $30,000 purse from Brooks and Team USA selection on the line. Loon Mountain leans into its legendary Upper Walking Boss with $20,000 backed by Darn Tough and likely more on the way. Ragged brings a three-day stage race and a $30,000 purse from Altra, while Cranmore gets fresh momentum tied to a new trail-forward retail hub in North Conway.
We go inside the business: why retail distribution changes the ROI for brands, how prize money can reshape athlete contracts, and whether this surge signals a sustainable path or a temporary splash. We talk logistics and legacy—permitting realities in New England, course character across Sunapee, Loon, Cranmore, Kismet, and Ragged—and the growing pipeline from NCAA track and cross-country to the mountains. If you care about the sport’s future, you’ll want the full take on appearance fees, what elites owe in promotion, and the rising urgency of credible anti-doping as purses climb.
This is a candid, ground-level look at how trail running grows up without losing its edge: steep grades, slick roots, and real money on the line. Hit play, share it with a friend who loves mountain running, and leave a quick review so more people can find the show. Your feedback keeps these conversations going and helps the sport take its next step.
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. Today I'm joined by a very special guest, none other than return guest, Mr. Tom Hooper, the race director of 603 Endurance, is back on the show. Tom comes on to talk about a whole slew of new developments with his races and racing series. First and foremost, he came on to announce that the Sun of Scramble that's going to be taking place in the first week of June will once again be the U.S. Mountain Running Championship. And this time it just got better. There's going to be a$30,000, if not more, prize purse. The$30,000 had been put up by Brooks, and I believe there are more potential sponsorships on the way for more prize money for athletes to get involved and go race this race. Pretty exciting stuff. He also talked about a few of his other races that included the Loon Mountain Race and Ragged as well, both with generous prize purses as well that are going to be put up by various brands this upcoming year. Lots of changes on the forefront. We also talked about some bold predictions for 2026 as far as the landscape and the changing landscape of the sport. We talked about appearance fees. We riffed on a lot of really good stuff. Tom is a brilliant mind in the sport. He's a uh a good amigo and someone who I have immense respect for. So it's always fun to get a good conversation going with him and uh you know learn about what's going on in his world. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. It's always a favorite of mine. Uh without further ado, Tom Hooper from 603 Endurance. All right, Tom Hooper. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, my friend? Fantastic. Yeah, dude, it's good to have you. It's good to see you in 4K today. We're fancy now. I was just telling you that. Yeah, you're big time now. Yeah, dude. We're trying. We're trying here. 2026 is a new, new, new look, new me, new everything. Um, dude, how was your holiday? How's it going? It was good. Yeah, pretty low-key, but yeah, it was good. Nice, nice. Well, um, wanted to invite you on the pod because we've got some big news to announce. And well, you kind of already announced it, but we got a lot of things to talk about. So maybe uh take it away. Tell people if they don't know who you are, who you are, and you're the what you were the race director for your series. Um, and then we'll talk about Sunpee.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I it really hasn't been announced yet. This is this is basically the first. I mean, we've put it on the you know, ultra sign-up sites and stuff like that, but we haven't made the poster or official announcement and done all the the hoopla, but it's uh yeah, for the 603 races that I put on, like Sunope Scramble, Dixon's Revenge, Loon Mountain Race, Ragged Kiss Met, Um, Falcon's Fury. Um, we also uh acquired the Cranmore Mountain Race. Um, they are now um basically under the flag of Marathon Sports. Um, so uh nothing will change from the from the runners um perspective except for a better product. Um we had taken these races about as far as they could they could possibly go without big corporate backing. Um and so now we have some some pretty big backing and some big players that are jumping in to help us um elevate these races. I love it. Congratulations.
SPEAKER_01:This is big news, dude. Yeah, I love to hear it. It's pretty it's pretty exciting. Um all right, so you said nothing's gonna change, it's just gonna be a better, better product in the way for athletes, and that means prize money, that means a lot of different things. Maybe go a little bit into some of the changes that you you know you what you can share as far as some of the changes that you you're gonna make in 2026.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I mean, basically with the the backing of Marathon Sports, um, we have access to all the shoe companies. So we basically wanted to like diversify every race to you know let every every shoe brand have its own its own race um and come up with what they want to do to make these races a little bit you know more special. Um so with Sonope Scramble, um it's one, it's the U.S. National Championship for mountain running again. Um the they'll select Team USA to go to Canada in October. Um but there's now$30,000 in prize money uh presented by Brooks. So yeah, Brooks stepped up. Um I mean they have one of the best teams, uh elite teams as it is. I mean, half their team on was on Team USA. Um so this just basically gives these athletes a little bit bigger bump in their contracts if you if they if they perform how they should. Um so that's pretty exciting. Um Loon Mountain, uh$20,000 prize per purse uh put on by Darn Tough, which you know, which we didn't see coming. That was a that was a big step for them. Um they really want to own the sock world, so that's great for them. Um Ragged Mountain, uh they're putting up uh Ultra is putting up$30,000 for that. Um yeah, and then the other ones can't talk about yet, but there's gonna be some really exciting news for Kiss McCliff run. Um, yeah, so the fall is gonna be really interesting. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, I love this, man. And I feel like maybe we can get more into this because I know you and I have had some really productive conversations since TRE and stuff like that. Yeah, and it seems like the landscape of our sport is changing, man. Like I it changed in one week. It's crazy. I mean, we we you and I have talked about broken arrow and things like that, and like their level of prize money, and then now like I love seeing, especially into the Northeast racing scene, a level of monetary injection um for prize money that we just haven't seen in previous years. And uh maybe talk about that. Like how I how this changed.
SPEAKER_00:Well, how this went down. I mean, you know, I I made, you know, I made the the the move, you know, the week or two weeks before TRE, um, and what we thought was going to be a you know a huge splash in in the industry changed in in three days. I mean, with ACG going to broken arrow with 150,000 and then going to Gorge with uh 75,000, you know. So it's uh yeah, I mean, our whole our whole landscape of trail running and prize money and and what we thought was gonna be a huge splash changed instantly. So when we went to TRE, we know we had a meeting every day, you know, 10 meetings every day, um, just trying to figure out how to make this still work. Um, and so we had I mean TRE was a super productive week. That was that one opened my eyes to the retail and how everything works behind the scenes and marketing and and budgets and stuff like that. So that was that was really interesting. Um, and then just trying to to fit everybody everywhere, you know what I mean? Uh, you know, the Northeast gets lost a lot uh in the in the race scene. So we're we're hoping that this kind of puts us on a map a little bit more. I like that.
SPEAKER_01:I like that. And well deserved. I mean, the hardest races in in the country, arguably, um, you know, muddy, technical, gritty, the closest thing you're gonna get, in my opinion, to racing in Europe, just without um, you know, just with different skylines, if you will. I think it it needs its shine. Um, and you know, we've seen a lot, I mean, there's a lot of athletes now training out of the northeast that you're starting to see. Like, you know, speaking of Brooks, I mean, Dan Kurtz, um, you know, Remy Larue, there, there's quite a few elites in the in the area, and I think that will only continue to grow um as as more people kind of see the scene. I mean, you have your your races, you're also the race director for what Cirque Series Killington and Cirque Series Canon. So the Cirque Series now is in the area as well. And yeah, I think if in in as the years go on, I think it'll just continue to uh kind of grow. Um I do want to say one thing too. Uh this is interesting. The landscape, with the landscape changing so fast, um, it's not just one brand like Brooks, for instance, that threw$30,000 for Sunnepe. Um, you've got Darn Tough in there, you've got Ultra. Like was it evident to you that brands are seriously invested in this sport and want to see the growth? And and you know, by putting their money into the prize money scene, they want to see the elites and the uh the competition come out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a tough question to to answer, only because we're doing something that's never been done before, right? So there's no other company like a marathon sports that owns this many races, right? Like Brendan owns App and Glow, one race, or sorry, one store, all you know, big prize money. Jeremy doesn't own a retail store, right? So the for us, we had to have to pitch more return on investment. You know, hey, you put up$30,000, we'll bring you into all these stores. So I think that this is the first step in New England for them to get a taste of what we can possibly do, but it's a safer bet for them because they're still gonna make money in the back end um by so by selling shoes. So I think that there's this is a safe play for them. It's not them all of a sudden going, we need trail. That's that's I don't think that's really what's happening. I think this is just more of a hedge your bet kind of thing, and hey, we can we can make this work, we'll make our money back, let and but we can also make New England like uh a pretty a pretty big mecca of trail running.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this is where and this is what made me confused. Not so not on that end, because that economic model made sense. But where I got confused was something more um, and this is nothing that gets broken air. I think it was amazing with that level of prize money, that's insane. But that in an investment from ACG seemed more like a sunk cost to me because it's like, how can you quantify that you're gonna make, I don't know,$160,000 on the back end in in ACG shoes? That's gonna be really hard to do. That's a huge spend. I mean, I don't know. I don't have the budget of Nike.
SPEAKER_00:I'm what I and the spend isn't so much. It's I think people should be worried about the sustainability.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Can they keep doing this? I mean, how long was Solomon there? Five years, seven years, whatever their contract was there. Long time, yeah. Yeah, did is there a move that was made because the number was so big? But do they pull back in two years being like, we can't keep putting up 150,000? I don't I don't know what's happening on that side. Um maybe it is, maybe it's a seven-year contract. No, I hope it is. That'd be amazing. Yeah, yeah. I just I cannot see that being a sustainable model of for Nike. I mean, yes, who knows?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I in you know, it makes more sense for Broken Arrow to me than it did Gorge, just because Gorge was a much smaller race. And and don't get me wrong, like what Free Trial's been able to do to build it up. Like it's I've been there personally, you've been there personally. It's an amazing race. Um unbelievable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that course I still talk about it. It's it's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:It it's yeah, it's it's so cool. But I just wonder, like, that's uh I don't know, it's a these are big commitments, you know. So it I wonder what I'm trying to get at is what we're seeing here is this a flash in the pen from an investment perspective, and then it goes away um as you know, balance sheets dry up more over time, or is it is it this is a new giant big thing, and this just opens the door for brands to come in uh across the board and start putting prize money because ACG invested a ton. I mean, I saw that they did um oh man, what is that other race in the Pacific Northwest? Uh something, some trail fest uh that they do near like Mount Hood, yeah. Um, which is another like big racing scene.
SPEAKER_00:It's still Jeremy's races, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's just interesting. So well, I mean, I guess that's a that's an interesting thing we'll see. But as far as you're concerned with the Northeast, um, I love to see it. I love the Northeast scene growing. I think it's finally getting the shine that it deserves. Um, let's talk about the the racing, I I guess the prize money breakdown. Um, how will it work for something like Sunnepe? Like, obviously it's a$30,000 purse. How much goes to the first place male and female, and then how does it trickle down from there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so a couple things. Um, one, the$30,000 is from Brooks alone. Uh as we go along, we'll start getting other sponsors, you know, nutrition, more socks, polls, whatever the deal is. Um, so the$30,000 is just for them up front. So we're gonna do$10,000 for first place, male, female, and then we'll we'll start backing it down um first, second, third, and then I believe how we're gonna do the run fund, which the only reason I knew about it is because of your podcast, and I reached out to Eric. Shout out to Eric. Um, we yeah, shout out to Eric. We have him on on all our races now. Um, and then so you can go in and put in money. Um, so that'll be broken down, I think, to five deep. So yeah, so it should be a should be a fairly decent payday for these guys. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's I mean economic opportunity. I think that's that's uh I don't know, I think it's amazing. Um, and I'm glad to see that that's the way it's it's rolling down. Like if you're I mean, who won last year? So if you're somebody like uh you know, I mean, even if you're just in the area, like dude, if Dan Kurtz, like he's gotta be licking his lips, getting ready to to come back and try and prove himself of this race and and make it happen. Like somebody like that, it's there's a lot of economic opportunity there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it I mean, it I I wonder when they see this, if we've if we've screwed up elites where they're gonna start backing down their contracts and say, well, if we're putting up more money at these races, go earn your paycheck. It's it's gonna be an interesting, interesting situation. You know, I I don't know if we've made this better where we went, you know, we wanted to do the right thing, we're trying to get these athletes paid, but now do the companies say, Hey, well, we're putting up this, go to this race that we're sponsoring, earn your extra bonuses there.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's tough to say. This is this is I mean, you do bring up a very good conversation there. Is it I I don't know. Like, I I've always been, and this is a part of the conversation we'll get to later when we start to talk more about like the race directing aspect and like narrow margins and like just trying to put up prize money in the first place, which is not easy for a lot of races and race directors, right? Um but on on the econom or on the athlete side, I feel like for some races, let's say like the ultra side for like Western states, right? Because Western states ever did prize money, they always just kind of relied on the brands through um, you know, basically to subsidize the prize money through race performance bonuses, right? Which which makes sense. I get that. Um if that trickles down to the short trail side, or if it already does, because there obviously are performance bonuses on that side, um, yeah, what does that look like? Will brands start to consolidate those and say, okay, well, it's on a piece scramble, like Brooks is already putting that up. Hey, Dan, hey Taylor, like you gotta go earn your bag there instead of you getting a whatever amount performance bonus. I don't I mean I don't think so, but what do I know? You know? Yeah, I don't I don't know how it'll shake out. Yeah, yeah. This is why I want to grow the sport and get it to a level to where or I want to play a role in helping to grow the sport to where it's like the the big money contracts are here, and that's not even a conversation. Everybody's making money and it's good all around, but I think we're still a few years away from from that. But I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean this is we're we're we're really in the 80s of the NBA right now. Like when you know when Joe Gray posted that his he's leaving, I was like, you know, you've paved the way for the year, you know, the kids in you know five years from now that are making the million dollar contracts. Yeah, like you are the you are the 80s NBA players.
SPEAKER_01:No, seriously. Yeah, I mean what's your I I mean this is something I was gonna say to the end, bro, like for 2026 and 2027 predictions, like even beyond, like what do you think is the the the found like where do you think the sport's gonna go? Like, do you think there'll be a contraction uh economically or do you think this thing is just gonna continue to balloon?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's gonna continue to balloon. Um I know in the Northeast, so marathon sports has the largest scholastic division, so we have an opportunity where we can keep these kids from basically from cross country and track, skip the whole road thing right into trail. So we're I mean, I think that these I think this we're gonna get some some talent that we've never seen before where they come super young, where now you know trail running and ultra running is a little bit of an older, you know, category. I think we're gonna start getting the the younger kids that come straight to to the trail.
SPEAKER_01:Do you so here's my question. This this is something I've been bringing up lately and thinking a lot about. Like I've had uh I have that um Asher Oates kid coming on the podcast, and I've obviously had Noah as well on. And you know, both both young men competed at worlds, both run at the D1 level. And the thing I was thinking about is like, is the D1 level necessary, yes or no, in your development of just getting better? Like, is it possible that like that is such an important aspect of your improvement in some athletes to get better and get that final improvement, like to become your Christian Allen or your Ana Gibson, right?
SPEAKER_00:Or I think so. Iron's iron sharpens iron.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Or is it to where like some people could just forego college and you're you're that good and you just go straight to the league, right? And but I that's also an 18-year-old kid.
SPEAKER_00:Like you're not fully developed. You're not a yeah, yeah, you're not a man yet, or you're not a full, full grown woman. I don't think that that's yeah, I think college is very necessary. I mean, an 18-year-old versus a 21-year-old, that's a big difference. Oh, yeah, dude. In in in physical ability and and body types and stuff like that. Um, yeah, I think college is, you know, you learn how to lift. Hopefully, you know, these colleges have a nutritionist, like you know how to nut. You know, I I think that you get these these track kids into weight rooms, and our whole sport changes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, dude. I that's such a slept-on thing, is is uh weight training and and strength. But like, yeah, it's um I don't know. The landscape is changing a lot. I know I've said that probably like seven times and sound like a broken record, but like even from the D1.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's I mean it's crazy, dude. The the the growth is nuts. But uh like just in the the last like few months, the the amount of like either professional roadies or like McKenna Morley, who came from Cal like Colorado, dude, the amount of kids from Colorado, just like from CU that are jumping from the D1 level to into the trails, um, is nuts. Like it is crazy how many uh people are are just this good coming into the trails. So, yes, I I think the the space is going to be changing a ton. And uh what people used to be able to get away with, they're not gonna be able to get away with anymore. And it the level is just gonna be so high uh that it's gonna be a completely unrecognizable sport in the next five years. Like the professionalization is gonna be crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, just think about those CU kids, right? Like you're they're going to the same coffee shops as us, but now they're seeing like all these people wearing trail gear versus you know roadrunners.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I think it kind of they it kind of just leads them right to it. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:That's crazy. Um All right. So I I want to get into so we already talked about Sun of Peeping, the U.S. mountain running championship this year. Uh I which I think is really exciting. Second year in a row uh for it. Um good timing of the year. It's gonna be first two weeks in June, right? Is it June 13th this year? Something like that. No, it's the seventh. Seventh. That's right. I'm sorry. Yep, June and 7th. Yeah. Okay. So similar timing from last year. Um, dude. Yeah. Anything to add on to that? We already talked about the prize purse. Is re when is registration open or is it open now?
SPEAKER_00:It's it's open now. Yeah, it's good to go. Um, it's also gonna be the collegiate championships again. Um so that'll be that'll be open. Those kids can double dip if they if they really want. There's a$3,000 prize purse for them, but if they've you know, if they they jump into the the podiums, they're they'll they'll have a hell of a payday. Um yeah, and then it's just a selection race for team USA when they race in October in Canada. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And if let's say elites listening to this or athletes that want to get in uh and have an opportunity to compete, um, is the same thing like last year? Like there'll be a thing on the line to fill out like a form and they'll be able to get in touch with you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Right on uh yeah, on Sunipe Scramble.com. You can just click on the bottom link and it'll be the uh elite inquiry. Yep. Sweet.
SPEAKER_01:Do let's talk Loon. I want to get into Loon a little bit because I feel like I mean Sinclair absolutely destroyed that race last year. Um big prize money again. You said 20,000, was it 25,000 for this year?
SPEAKER_00:It'll be 20,000, but I think by the end of it'll be close to 30. Okay. Uh we have some other sponsors jumping on, hopefully by the by the end of the month. Um, yeah, it's kind of a sleeper this year, just because it's not a national championship, it's not a vertical championship, it's not a mountain road uh championship. It's yeah, it's kind of a sleeper, but I think it's I mean, it's always packed. It's always uh, you know, 600 to a thousand-person race. Like it's it just falls on a good time. You know, it's the week after 4th of July, the weather's always perfect. It's just a good day to be in New Hampshire.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, talk about the course a little bit, talk about Upper Walking Boss. Like, give give me give me give me some deets. Because I I feel like new, like new listeners to the podcast that might be less familiar with the Northeast scene. Like Loon for the longest time has been, yeah, vertical champs, uh what in 2024? Are we in 2026 now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 2024. It's been the national champs, I think, like a dozen times. It's it's it's a lot. Um, I mean, all the way back to like I think 2014. Um, so yeah, I mean it's 6.6-ishish miles. Um, but the the most impressive is upper blocking boss. It's the last the last 1k is um you know, for averages 44% grade. It is it is no joke. It hurts. And it is at the last after you've already smoked yourself, it's uh and it finishes on top of the mountain. Yeah. So it's it's a tough race, but it's obtainable by everybody. You know, it you don't have, you know, when you do a hundred miles, your your week is ruined, right? When you do a you know, when you do a six-mile uphill race, it hurts. It's it's gnarly, but you'll go to work on Monday and and be all right.
SPEAKER_01:It's brutal, brutal. I mean the 44% grade, though, I think. Dude, what's that? Do you guys do still do the signs for the I think it's the upper walking boss like ski sign that you give as like a the prize, one of the prizes?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I thought you were getting, I thought you were gonna bring up the no safe word sign, and I was like, oh boy. Uh we used to be there used to be a hashtag for just no safe word, and it was up there for a couple years, and then somebody complained to the mountain about the the hashtag no safe word uh on the on the mountain. So yeah, so we had to take that down. That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01:Uh all right, let's shift gears. One of the things I want to ask you about, um, just because you kind of brought it up in the beginning, was Cranmore. I feel like that's another really iconic race in the collection of races that has hosted uh USATF um championship races before in the past, if I remember correctly. Talk a little bit about that one because the town is cool. Like there's that's a neat area.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, North Conway is a blast. Uh so Kismet and Cranmore, both within like three miles of each other. Um yeah, it's so cranmore is an updown twice, um, but it's it's gnarly. It's it's super steep, up and down. Um, usually there's a good fall storm every time the week before, so it gets a little muddy. Um, yeah, it's it's gonna be fun. It's very grassroots in the sense of like the mountain's not open. They basically give uh Paul Kirsch the key, and they're like, do whatever you want. Yeah. Um, that was actually the first mountain race I ever did. Um you know, here I was a bigger fish in a little pond, and you know, lining up next to this guy named Max King and Joe Gray, you're like, oh, these guys are they're done. They're done here. And I saw them for about seven seven seconds and they were gone.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, man. That's funny.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yep, that was yeah, I think 2011 or so, something like that. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:That's good. That's like the early days, man. That's not is there is there like gonna be like a push? Because that is a very small race, or it was a very small race. Is there gonna be a push? Because like I feel like that's a great course in a uh in a in a very beautiful town. Uh is there gonna be a push to try to get that one a bigger name, get it out more? Because I think that that's one that um it's not that far of a drive, like just like all of them. They're all relatively close drive to Boston if you want to fly into that airport from really anywhere in the country.
SPEAKER_00:Um Yeah. Yeah, so we're actually adding a 4,500 square foot store right down the street in North Conway, um, as like a bit, you know, trail, trail specific home base. So yeah, Cranmore will be like the is gonna be probably turned into one of the their premier races. So that's there's gonna be a huge push um just to make it a a bigger, bigger production, better race. Yeah. Yeah.
unknown:All right.
SPEAKER_01:Let's I I gotta get into Kismet too. I know we can't go into really any details about some of the announcements that are gonna be made for that, but I do want you to talk about the race just because uh that is a gnarly course. Like Dan, I think Dan's got the course record on it, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's the only person to break two hours ever. That's so bananas, dude. That doesn't matter. Yeah, 159 something. Yeah, I mean, so 13 miles, uh 4,300 feet of vert on the most technical stuff you've ever seen. Yeah. I mean, it is it is absolutely gnarly, but it's also the most scenic. Um, you know, you have 360 views once you get up onto the moats, two different moats. Um, when you come down, you finish at the base of Cathedral Leg at Echo Lake State State Park at Echo Lake, where so most people jump in the lake after. And I mean, you're just on this vertical cliff. It's yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah, it's really cool. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Um, all right. And there's there's also, I think there's you have like a five-mile distance for that as well. If someone's like trying to tip their toes in, want to get uh want to just see what it's all about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a five-mile with about 2,000 feet of vert. Um, so it'll still wake you up in the morning. But yeah, it's uh it's a little less you don't get to go out on the moats, but you get to go up over Cathedral and Whitehorse, which are still unbelievable views. Yeah, it's it's really cool. Awesome. Awesome. And then the, I mean, the last race we want to talk about all of them is Ragged. So it's you know, Ragged is an interesting beast in itself because there's not a whole lot of stage races out there. You know, you think of the you know, most iconic Trans Rockies. Um, this is this is basically a shorter version of that where you can, you know, most people can't get away for six days. This is a three-day stage race. So the first day you you race 25 miles, the second day you race 25, yeah, 25, 23, and then the third day is a 50k distance. We also have just the 50k. So what we do is we bus in like 300 athletes from the finish line to the to the starting line of that 50k, and then they run with the stage racers that last day. Um, that morning is is interesting because you have a lot of grumpy stage racers that are tired and sore, and you have all these fresh elites that look, you know, that slept in their bed the night before, and they yeah, we we try to keep them separated so that it's not it doesn't get too hairy. Yeah, fist fights. But I mean, yeah, right. I mean, you know, because all these fresh people are looking to use the bathrooms and stuff like that when uh stage racers have been there all night. So yeah, we try we keep them separate. Um, but Ultra's putting up$30,000 for for Ragged, which is which is huge. Um, it's been the 50k national championship three times. Um, it's 50k with 6,300 feet of vert. Um the the ragged stage race has got almost 16,000 feet of vert. It's it's it's a spicy three days. A lot of technical, a lot of a lot of just nastiness. Yeah. It's a good tour. I feel like a tour of uh of the area, right? For yeah, yeah, you see some stuff. You summit uh basically two mountains a day. Um, yeah, you have you have Sunni in the middle, you have Kearsaj, um, Bog Mountain. Yeah, you have some you have some cool stuff out there.
SPEAKER_01:I I never really asked you this, and maybe I have in the past and I just don't remember. Um, dude, is it like I don't know. I in the in the West, obviously, every most of the mountaintops, everything's like wilderness, right? And then obviously, in where you guys are, you've got the White Mountain uh or the White the Whites Wilderness, if you will. How hard is it to get shit permitted there? Like if we're like in the area that you guys are trying to put these races on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Kisma is is basically would be the most difficult. It's it's you know, we've been doing it for 14 years or whatever, so it's it's pretty easy now. But um, yeah, uh once you get above North Conway, it gets a little hairy. Um, you guys have wilderness areas, but you have such large land, yeah. So you can navigate around them. We have wilderness areas, but it's so condensed in New England that it's hard to get around them, you know. So, and then we all always also have the Appalachian Trail, which we can't do anything with. Uh you can't put races on the AT. Um, yeah, that's a that's a no-go zone. The wilderness, you can only have 10 people. Um, so like when Drummond does his White Mountain 100, it's not a race, he's just doing the support for it and letting people go off. Um yeah, it's kind of a gray area, but yeah, it I mean, yeah, it's it's a constitutional act from the 60s that um I think is outdated. Uh, then it doesn't need to be. It was you know to prevent certain logging situations. Um yeah, I I'm not a hundred percent sure why it hasn't been re-looked at, um, at least for foot traffic. But yeah. That's so interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the reason I ask, I brought like part of like to piggyback off that, and this might be way too inside baseball. I remember having this conversation with Steve when we were doing the uh the what the hell was it? Killington race preview. And because I know there was a section of the race that was supposed to be on like part of the AT, if I remember correctly, and it was changed. Because I was like really looking forward. So I'm like, how is that possible that you can put on a race section of the race on that? And he's like, No, we changed it, but never like went into detail on that. So that's really interesting that I didn't know you couldn't vote.
SPEAKER_00:Right, and that wasn't even the AT. We had we have permission to run on the AT in Vermont. Okay, it's okay, it's 75 feet of the AT. It doesn't, it's it you're basically brushing along it. That wasn't the issue. This trail that's there is they were telling us wasn't a trail. Basically saying it's an out-of-bound ski area, but it's a full-blown trail with signage. It became kind of a pissing match between um the government, two different sides of the government at each other, and then Julie and I sitting there being like, This is ridiculous. Like, we have you guys have had eight months to figure this out, and we have four days till the race. Um, so we had to make a switch before those two uh entities could figure out their nonsense. That's so crazy to me.
SPEAKER_01:It's so interesting, man. I don't think people realize like how much extra stuff goes on behind the scenes to put these things on.
SPEAKER_00:It's yeah, and you think you have everything done, like everything's signed, sealed, delivered. You're like, you know, and I was at Broken Arrow at the time when this went down. So I mean, I'm sitting in the condo just calling every person I I had to, you know, to figure out what's going on. Who is this guy? Why is he all of a sudden bringing this up four days before the race? Like, we're we're not even talking about a you know, the AT anymore. We're talking about, you know, a 400-foot trail that gets us into the woods. So yeah. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I like that stuff. On the race director side, this is actually something I wanted to get uh talk to you about and like maybe maybe bring up on my end because I I did a podcast recently with Eric from Run Fund, and I was very uh, let's say verbose is probably the right word, about going after uh I this is more so on the ultra side and talking about Western states and hard rock and being just uh in a little more intense about prize money and having that conversation. And one of the things I thought you want to apologize for the thing you said. I thought I just want to clarify. I'm not apologizing to Western states, and I'm definitely not apologizing to Hard Rock. No, it was after you and I talked and it had me thinking about Dale, he's not apologizing. It was uh let's admit I'll I'll if I if I do so if I if I fuck up, I'll I'll definitely say it. But like this was more so uh, you know, I think people need to understand, and maybe they do, and I just was not as sensitive as I probably could have been in some degrees that like not all races are are equal. Like not every race is Western states, it doesn't have the balance sheet, it's not a multi-million dollar business, right? Um and that some races uh most races are not created in that way, or are not uh hard rock in Western states. But I do look at them as the pillars of that particular area of the sport to have prize money and should. But it for most race directors, it's not the reality. It's trying to, you know, there's very narrow margins. A lot of times it's very tricky, it's not easy. I mean, you can add more commentary to this, but one of the things I wanted to get across was um I want people to understand that like that's not the way I I don't view all races as the same. Like those were the two that I singled out that I was going after. And Aero Vipa too. Uh and we could talk about that after. Um but that's kind of where I was going with that. And maybe you can add some two sentence to the reality of maybe the economics of it and how it's it's uh it's difficult business, man.
SPEAKER_00:It is. Um, yeah, and I and I think more so starting off, you know, I think there's a you know, I I always talk at the US Trail Running Conference in in Knoxville, and you know, we talk to these race directors, they're starting or they want to start, and it's it's interesting to see how do I want to put this? Uh it's interesting to see how they start off and what they find important and how what are they gonna do with their money. Um because you all I mean all this stuff costs a ton of money. I mean, you want an arch? Like, great, if you have a sponsor that can bring an arch, fantastic. A lot of us don't have that. So um, or at least when we started off, right? So, okay, I need a$5,000 arch. Okay, I need$5,000 worth of water jugs. So like you're always reinvesting, right? Like you're it's not like we are like sitting there rolling in, you know, Scrooge McDuck rolling in the in the golden coins. Like that's not what we're doing. Um, if you don't get that reference, you're too young. Uh um yeah, so it's yeah, you're always trying to reinvest, or you should be always trying to reinvest, and and make your product better, you know. There, what's next? What was missing? What would have made this better? Um, you know, the same thing with you, right? Like with your podcast, like you need to buy new equipment, you need to buy this, what would make it better? Okay, well, now I you know there's so much going on, I'm gonna hire a second person. There's always things to reinvest in. And I think putting it as a prize purse, because those prize purses are going to elites, those elites usually aren't paying the entry fee, anyways. Right. Uh there's nothing coming from that besides maybe them making a post, or hopefully them doing a post for you to say thank you for the entry fee. Um so that doesn't like getting$30,000 for a prize purse isn't going to our pocket. Like that's going right back out the door. So, yeah, so I think yeah, I think there's a fine line for some of these grassroots races where if they want to put up a thousand dollars or two thousand dollars, that's up to them. I don't think that's a requirement. Um if if they have the opportunity, fantastic. Yeah, I so I mean, yeah, I think every every race is different in in the point of what you were trying to say. I I think I don't think fresh race directors should focus on that. I think they should reinvest in their product and what experience they're giving the runner.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I totally no, I totally agree with you. And uh this is all right, so this brings me to an interesting conversation because I'm I'm trying to figure this out right now for Pikes Peak. Um so Sarah, you might be fine.
SPEAKER_00:Have you gone through a whole podcast without mentioning that you're on the board for Pikes Peak? Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, no, but on all seriousness, like we're we're trying to Sarah, Sarah Goul uh and I are trying to figure this out where we are managing the elite athletes, like trying to recruit, uh, you know, build a a repertoire of elite athletes to come and race the race, yada yada yada. And so one of the things I had been thinking about for the longest time, because you brought this up, was making because Brandon does it at Broken Arrow, making it kind of like a mandatory thing where if you're gonna be an elite athlete, you're gonna post about it. And we're gonna give you a free entry, like you need to post about it, you need to do this, you need to do that. Like it's not really like a crazy contract, but it's more so just like, you know, out of your courtesy, uh respectfully, please put something out there on social media so you can help promote the race and yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Because that's something I want to do, and I think like we are gonna roll that out with pikes this year.
SPEAKER_00:I I think you should uh ask it. Um, but I maybe, I mean, you are in a unique position where you have a podcast. Do you say, hey, uh, I'd like to do a pre-race interview? We'll give you an entry, but you have to do you know a five-minute pre-race interview that gives you content, right? So you you know, you can then take that content and do whatever you want to do that you you feel best for Pike Speak. I mean, I I think that that would be a legitimate ask. But you don't you don't require anything like that for your races. You're just like, all right, well, we're just gonna I'm like, here's here's the thing. I would love if you did a post that you were coming. That would be fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. That's interesting. So it's I mean, I it just brings up a whole dynamic and conversation around like that athlete race dynamic as things start to become because that's the thing. There's a lot of races that pay. I mean, you and I both know people and both know races that pay uh appearance fees for big name athletes to come out and and do their things. And I think that's that's cool. And I think we'll probably have more of that in the next few years as this work continues to grow, more money flows into it. Um, but I think it's an interesting relationship there between the RD and and the athlete.
SPEAKER_00:I find that the appearance fee is is interesting. We'll just say it's interesting. I mean, I will never do that. I if you want to come and have a good time, uh I mean I'll pay you in beer, but I'm not I'm not giving you cold hard card hash to uh cold hard cash to come and hang out in New Hampshire. You know what?
SPEAKER_01:And this isn't this is an interesting conversation. I don't know. Well, like I said, I I don't have there's some athletes that I'm like, uh for some races, I'm like, I wonder like if they they do do that. Like for I know a few people that are. are gonna show up to Broken Arrow this like for instance a Killian running the Broken Arrow Ascent. I've always wondered if Brandon gave him if he was ever given an appearance fee for showing up to that race um and doing it. That would have been really interesting. I don't know like the economics behind that would have been if he just chose to do it. That's that's interesting too. Like I think that would that's equally crazy. That's a super competitive race and would have been cool too.
SPEAKER_00:But I've always wondered like that aspect what would he what would he gain out of that? I mean it sells out anyways.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right, right, right. Well but it's also like Killian's one of the few people that trans like I don't know to to normies like like really transcends the sport in a lot of ways. So of course like and he doesn't race on North American soil very often you know he's only ever done Western states and hard rock in North America and maybe like speed goat back in the day.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah I found that really I would guess I would guess that his shoe company isn't crushing it and he needed to put some boots on the ground. Yeah I think that's probably the truth.
SPEAKER_01:Moving on now it it does it is interesting though like as far as the landscape of of appearance fees and kind of where because I've heard I won't say well we'll move on from that um let's talk predictions for 2026 and 2027 as the sport continues to change like do you have any like outrageous things that you think uh the landscape will look different or anything will will change over the next few years no nothing crazy that that I see I think the prize money is going to be the the big one for 2026.
SPEAKER_00:That'll be the storyline um yeah I don't I don't see anything crazy that's gonna I mean I guess you could throw in some Olympians that are gonna do some trail running to see what happens. Yeah I I I got asked this question and I don't know the answer and it kind of sparked it you know now that you have all this money and prize money at all of these races, even smaller races, right? What do we do about drug testing? Ooh bingo yeah yeah so that's gonna be a hairy situation right so I mean Moon Mountain$20 from$20,000 from from darn tough right it's a small it's a it's not gonna be packed with elites I maybe maybe it is I I I it there's no championship. It's just gonna be basically if you want to come get cash get cash. What do we do? Because that's that$20,000 is just an elite I'm not making any extra money to pay for drug testing.
SPEAKER_01:Like am I forking out four thousand dollars or five thousand dollars to pay for for drug testing yeah let's I think this is this is a good conversation I and this is something because I've also been very big on this but not pointing the finger at smaller races put I've been pointing the finger at like races like Aerovipa that rather than pay prize money they their statement is that they choose to invest that money into uh testing which for someone with a with someone for like where your racing series like what is it five thousand dollars or something like that for uh to to to to have a drug testing somewhere in that range but for Aerovipa that has a gazillion people at their race that's that's a rounding error in their revenue right to pay for something like that.
SPEAKER_00:So that's why it's like you know right but so say like a lot of other grassroots like say these companies decide that like this is this is worth the investment. But let's dumb it down. Say it's five thousand dollars in prize money. I mean you could work a scene like you could work you know this is almost like gambling now right like you're just working the the the shitty shark tables at Vegas and just work in the room and then you know make fifty thousand dollars and get out you know you know if you if you're doping you you know you could you could just go school some you know some grassroots races and and then get out and get paid.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah it's gonna be interesting to see when the when the prize money comes where do the sharks come from yeah yeah I mean I don't know there's a lot of races like I feel like um I know Brandon's been outspoken and they're big like Broken Arrow is big on uh doing uh drug testing obviously um there's quite a few that are you know big on drugs but there's it's not as much as people think like I I don't think there's a lot of uh with the prize money rolling in if their companies or brands are gonna invest in that I mean we need uh an out of season testing pool we need an in-season testing pool we need something um yeah but it the other I mean think think about the thing we can't talk about at KISSMET yes what do we do with something like that right if we're if we start getting international that's a good because listen I mean I'm not gonna be that guy but like most of the most of the doping comes from Spain and some of those other just gonna put that out there.
SPEAKER_00:Right you know yes so that's gonna be a whole different level when we get to September I'm gonna have to make some serious yeah thoughts about this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I mean why but here's my question though why can't the government why shouldn't the government buy governing body that that's they should be paying and providing that level of of drug testing in my opinion. Who's our governing body? Well I'm talking about that specific governing body oh right right is what I'm saying. But like in general we I don't know this is something I've thrown around for a long time and uh I don't know maybe the PTRA needs to get stronger and get get their shit together and and figure out like a framework for this and how to get funding for it. I mean there's been ideas thrown around that like you know you try to raise money from the brands to fund it. You try to raise money from another source to fund it. Like I think we just need like a some random billionaire that's like got baller level money and just funds our shit dude. I mean we need to figure out something like does anybody know anybody that we can fund our uh out of season testing pool and then in-season testing pool? Uh well this is something I brought up uh I've talked to Joe Gray about this a few times because like you know there's gonna be a time when he doesn't compete in the sport anymore at the level that he does and he's always been very outspoken and talkative. I mean even in his post the other day he talked about anti-doping and that was very particularly pointed at the Golden Trail series. And um it's it's kind of I hope that he can be a leader in his next phase whenever he's done competing at the level that he's in and we can get more athletes like that to uh try and do something to get a framework in place because it needs to be done if we're ever going to be an Olympic sport whether people want that or not or if we're ever going to get to this proverbial next level where we're actually taken seriously I think athletes too are like I was really cool one of the the things that the awards of 2025 that I'd always love to give away would be to like someone like Cam Smith who I think has be like really become a leader in the sport in the last year. And one of the things I really appreciated about Cam was and at was after that uh particular athlete was popped for um I think it was series now or whatever it was Joe no it was uh OCC uh you know he and among many others were talking about like anti-doping and talking about um you know having a framework in place and you know I think it needs to start with the athletes really pushing for it and hopefully getting changed that way.
SPEAKER_00:You know? Yeah. Can we talk about Cam Smith for a second? Yeah all right it's my guy Sean Sean White was the flying tomato in the Olympics. What are we calling Cam Smith? I don't know if stewed tomatoes like what we gotta come up with a nickname for Cam.
SPEAKER_01:Oh dude he I this is probably the second time I've mentioned this now on a podcast I he's coming on next week and he sent me his like media request for him before like his schedule and I I because I I was texting him I'm like dude I'm sure like how has has the dust settled since solitude how are things going blah blah blah he's like dude the dust is not settled and then he sends me his thing like his calendar it's like I don't know how he finds time to train dude like everyone wants something from him now that he's going to the Olympics it is insane how popular he has gotten which is kind of cool. I don't know that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah that's what I'm saying he needs a nickname he does need a nickname all right at the bottom of this podcast put in the comments what you think what you think Cam Smith's nickname well that was Sean White was the flying tomato so we got to come up with something for for our is there like ginger puns we can make um we gotta come up with a few yeah yeah some schemo some schemo ginger comments oh bad all right so we're at about 45 minutes is there anything you wanted to get to that we we maybe glossed over I know I'm kind of all over the place on this one. No I yeah I think I think we're good. Yeah once once we get into February we can we can talk come back and talk about Kismet and what's going to happen in the in the States and go from there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's that's uh yeah we'll do part two I like that uh Tom Hooper it's always fun man it's always fun catching up with you and having these conversations uh looking forward to sharing many beers with you this summer and uh we'll be in touch dude all right sounds good thanks well what'd you guys think oh man always fun uh to catch up with Tom and hear about what is going on in the world of race directing lots of new and exciting developments uh again super stoked that the US Mountain Running Championship once again will be at Sunope and that there's gonna be a ton of generous prize money throughout the 603 races for this year. So hopefully that uh that brings the that brings the elites out and uh gets some world class competition for a lot of these races which is going to be exciting. Uh guys I hope you enjoyed this one. If you did please give us a five star rating and review on Apple Spotify YouTube or wherever you consume your podcast. You can also give Tom a follow at Tom Hooper on Instagram. Also be sure to hit the uh the like and follow button on Instagram for 603 endurance and most importantly if you're in the Northeast or thinking about doing a race in the Northeast there's a whole slew of good races out there now. Be sure to check out the 603 endurance races as well as the Stirxies Killington and Stirk Series Cannon races which are both RD'd by Tom Hooper as well. So uh appreciate you guys for listening and tuning along lots of good stuff coming down the pipeline.
