The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#153 - Grayson Murphy
A world champion who won’t let algorithms define her worth—Grayson Murphy joins us for a candid, sharp, and hopeful conversation about racing, health, and the future of trail running. From life in Bozeman to the first time grizzlies changed a solo run, we open with place and presence, then dive straight into how she built Wild Strides Paper Co, why multiple identities make better athletes, and how part-time sustainability work keeps her grounded in real-world impact.
Grayson breaks down her pivot from mountain classic mastery to the short trail learning curve: higher volume, more zone 2, poles, and a smarter fueling plan. She walks us through the Crohn’s diagnosis that finally explained 18 months of confusion, and how treatment helped her trust her body again. There’s craft here too. She details the simple-yet-brutal mountain classic formula—empty the tank to the top, descend like a technician—and why short trail requires an entirely new toolkit. Along the way, we unpack selection for Worlds, the value of a coach on-site, and the friendships that keep her inspired.
We also tackle the business of being an athlete. Grayson draws a clear line between athlete and influencer, shares how brands dropped her for “low engagement” after winning Worlds, and explains why she now avoids deals that hinge on reach. The conversation expands to prize purses, athlete support, and the Olympic question—what trail format would resonate, and what professionalization must include: appearance fees, better visibility, and real anti-doping. It’s a blueprint for a healthier sport and a braver career.
If this resonates, follow Grayson on Instagram, check out Wild Strides Paper Co, and share this episode with a friend who loves trail running. Leave a rating and review, hit subscribe wherever you listen, and tell us: should trail be in the Olympics?
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Check out Wild Strides Paper Co Website - Wild Strides Paper Co
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello. And today I am so excited to welcome Grayson Murphy to the show. Arguably the greatest female mountain runner of all time, without a doubt, the greatest female mountain runner of the modern era, two-time world mountain running champion, three-time medalist, and four-time uh U.S. mountain running champ. Uh, it was just an honor and a privilege to be able to catch up and chat with her. Um, this is not your normal origin story episode. This is uh kind of what Grayson's been up to over the last few years. We got into her Crohn's disease diagnosis and what it was like battling through that over the last several years. We talked about her decision to move on from the mountain classic distance and go up into the short trail distance where she competed at worlds as well as throughout the season, both at Broken Arrow as well as Speed Goat. Um, we talked about how she was able to kind of figure things out uh to get ready for worlds over just a few races, figuring that distance out. It's a new Rubik's Cube for her. We talked about entrepreneurship. Uh Grayson owns a business called the Wild Strides Paper Co, which is a planner business. It's linked in the show notes. Um, if you guys have any interest in that, definitely check it out. But we talked about managing and operating that business. Um, we talked about social media. Grayson has a substantial social media following, and we got a lot into the nuts and bolts of you know voicing political opinions on social media. We talked about, you know, kind of managing an image of what that is. We talked about the athlete versus influencer debate, and uh yeah, really interesting stuff. I was very appreciative uh for Grayson to share her thoughts on a bunch of that. Um, I hope you guys enjoy this one. Definitely a favorite of mine. Um, you know, dealt like I said before, honor privilege, and uh just a big fan of Grayson's. So without further ado, Grayson Murphy. All right. Grayson Murphy, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_02:Hi, good. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's I have to be honest with you, honor and a privilege. I am it you were one of the first people I thought of uh that would be great for this show when I originally started it. So it's really cool to be able to finally have a conversation, sit down and chat, and uh just kind of catch up and and talk about your year, talk about uh your story and and kind of go from there. First off, how's your day going?
SPEAKER_02:Day is good, yeah. It's really sunny, weirdly sunny here in Bozeman, nice weather, and got to do some intervals, which I can't take for granted these days. So I'm pretty happy about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, strangely warm. I know we were kind of chatting about that offline, like Colorado today, I think it's in the 60s, and where you are is even even uh like kind of warm as well, which is just it's kind of crazy for January, right?
SPEAKER_02:Very crazy, yeah. Yeah, and guilty, guilty about liking it. I mean so conflicted. I really like the warm weather, but we should have snow, so yeah, I'll take it, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:How do you how do you like Bozeman? Uh it's like a really fun town, right?
SPEAKER_02:It is really fun, yeah. I it's a really fun community. My husband's from here, so I got kind of lucky. I feel like he had that kind of built-in community already that I got to walk into, but um very outdoorsy people, which is fun. Lots of I still I think I'm biased, and the trail access in the Wasatch front is still maybe my favorite relative to like a city. So Salt Lake is still like really cool in um but Bozeman's really cool and it's small town vibes, but uh yeah, it's a cool place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like there's trade-offs, right? Like, I don't know, the Wasatch does have some of the best access, but still Salt Lake's kind of like more of a city, if you will. I uh I did a you know, over the past couple years I've done a bunch of Cirque series races, and every time I'm in the Wasatch, like the access is just amazing, but I find like just the the amount of people in the canyons are it's kind of wild. Like it's it's almost like Colorado in that way where most of the places in the front range the trailheads fill up and it gets busy, and it almost has me like yearning for um almost like a Bozeman, which is a little quieter, a little smaller, a little uh more different, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I think I do. When I was growing up in Salt Lake, it was not like that. It is like really blown up in the last decade, but Bozeman, you can get out there pretty quick, which is nice, and then sometimes we also have grizzly bears, so sometimes they get a little wigged out when I'm by myself and I don't see anyone else for hours, and I'm like, okay, I wish I could see like another person just to make sure I'm not gonna get eaten by a bear, so yeah, trade-offs, but it is nice, like the parking lots are never full, and um I can't complain about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's funny you bring up grizzly bears. I had that earmarked as a question. I asked like everybody in Montana uh that comes on the podcast. Like I asked literally McKenna Morley the same question like how do you deal with the grizzly bears? Like that's in Colorado, we just don't have them. So like the meanest thing in the woods are I guess moose or yeah you know, black bears and stuff like that. But yeah, the grizzly bears are that's a it makes the woods a little wild, a little more like a look over your shoulder kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:McKenna has a good grizzly bear story from this summer, but also one was just seen in this range that generally for the last I don't know, couple of decades, they haven't had any grizzly bears, and they just had a sighting of one, and I was texting her, like, dang it, now we have to bring bear spray to this trail system too, and this was like our safe area.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, we may it's crazy. It's crazy. I'm such a nerd for grizzly bears and stuff like that. I don't know. Like, I um I don't know if you've ever met Steve White from the Cirque series, he's a race director, and he's also an athlete, but he's uh he's a buddy, and he he and I always like share stories about like wild animals and stuff, and he's got like Wolverine stories and all the kind of good stuff. But yeah, the grizzly bear thing, it's it's crazy because I guess they're gonna start. I would it probably won't be long before they're like in the Uintas and like start to come down into Colorado just as their, I guess as things expand and like their range gets bigger, which is I don't know, kind of cool, kind of crazy, kind of weird. Yeah, uh yeah, that's all the all the things. So let's uh get off the topic of animals and uh maybe let's talk a little bit more about you. One of one of the questions, uh I don't know. I feel like in other podcasts I've listened to and in podcasts you've done, um, the conversation's always told around your origin story and stuff like that. And we we can get into some topics of that, but I think one of the big things I really want to ask you about right now is your business, uh, the Wild Strides Paper Co. Um, something that I find really interesting. I think it's really cool to hear more on the entrepreneurial side of what you've been up to. We'll talk about the running too, but maybe talk about your uh your business and what you've been building with that.
SPEAKER_02:Cool. Yeah, it's been a really cool labor of love and learning curve the last this is going on year eight, I believe. Um, and it has really evolved too. The first year, the first six years really that I did it, it was just me, and I was doing it um out of my house, like fulfilling all of the orders, out of my garage and living room, and it has grown to be much bigger, which is cool, but also to the point where I needed to bring on some people to help me manage it. Um and I majored in engineering, so business and running a business was not something that I like really had any background in before, and yeah, it's been a really cool learning experience, and I would highly recommend if anyone I it was nice, I guess, too, because I started it and it was more of a means to connect with the running community and just like kind of have this passion project. Um, it wasn't like my main source of income, and the first year I my grandma gave me a loan and I w broke even and was just barely able to pay her back. And I don't know if I really even profited anything that year, but it was cool, and I just kept doing it. So to be in that position was has been nice, where it's like a low pressure situation to make it work, and my goal with it really has just been to one sell this product that I think I really believe in and use um it's the training log and planner combo, and then connect with the running community outside of my racing and like race results and being a pro. Um, because everyone can use a training log, it doesn't matter what level you're at. So yeah, it's been like super cool and fun. And um as far as entrepreneurial stuff goes, I've always kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit when I was little. We had so many like lemonade stands, and actually our most successful business was leaf raking, and my sister and I would go rake rake people's leaves, bag them, put them in our wagon, take them home, and put them in my dad's garbage, but then his garbage would get so full, and he was like, What? I can't do this. Like, we have no room for our trash for the week. Um, yeah, we've always kind of been into ideas like that, and it's been fun to have one kind of like take off in the way that it has.
SPEAKER_00:It's so cool. I I think it's really interesting for someone like you, and maybe you can kind of you kind of alluded to this before, where you know, someone as high caliber of an athlete as you who always has the microscope on them, you're you're competing at the highest level of the sport. It's very easy to wrap up an identity in that. Whereas when you have a business and other things going on, it it really I don't know, I think it helps a lot of people as athletes to be able to not just identify as one thing, but identify as many things. I have other pursuits to kind of take your mind off of it. Is it is it would that would you say that's like accurate?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think so. Um yeah, I've always been someone that I feel like I have um contained multitudes and have a lot of different identities, and relatively speaking, running being a runner is a new-ish identity for me because I didn't start doing that until later in life. Um, so that's been kind of nice to hold on to those other things that I felt like kind of made me me, and then add running to it. And yeah, I've always been a person that I've tried really hard a couple of times to just focus on running, and I think that hyper focus works really well for some people, but for me it kind of backfires, and I just can't be thinking about one thing for that long all the time. It kind of eats me up inside. So having different outlets and um like getting my master's degree and work having the business and doing other stuff has been like great to not think about how can I win this race like every second of every day? Because I just learned that that is not a great way for me to function.
SPEAKER_00:It's so interesting to me. I mean, I have so many questions to dive in about this, but like, so I know you have a master's degree in sustainability and a bachelor's in uh in civil engineering. Do you ever at any point in time in your life like ever want to work in any of those things? Or like how how do you like justify, I don't know, maybe like the career aspect? Because like you have this world right now where you're an entrepreneur entrepreneur, you're a professional runner, you've got a lot of things going on. You know, do you view that as like, okay, this is career A? And then down the line, like this will be a different career? Like, how do you kind of justify that in your head?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I actually I'm working right now for a sustainability consulting company, um, part-time with my master's degree. So that's been fun because it I and engineering too, engineering's a little hard to get a part-time job in. I've had a couple along the way, but um, it takes some convincing to convince some firms to do that. Um, but yeah, I think it kind of sets me up more for the career after running that I maybe am interested in. And I don't really want to be a lifelong influencer type. Um, I feel like I have expertise and knowledge and experience that I like to share outside of like content creation. So trying to keep my foot in those doors and gain experience along the way so that I set myself up for when I'm ready to retire from running for something like that has kind of been the goal with the master's degree and like keeping these part-time jobs to keep my resume somewhat relevant. So, yeah, I do hope that um these can turn into like more full-time things once running is less full-time at some point.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, you said the I word. Uh, I'm a big fan of your Substack. I've read everything you've put up on there. And I you you wrote a really compelling and something I I gotta be honest with you. I really agree with every word that you'd written in there on your article of the athlete versus the influencer. And you are, I mean, there's a there's an argument that can be made, and we'll talk about this later, but there's an argument that you've made can be made that you're probably the greatest female mountain runner in the North America all time, but you're also but you also have a crazy social media following. Like people want to hear from you. You're a leader in the sport, and you've got what, like a hundred thousand followers or something like that. How do you justify that? Because I know I almost feel like it's disrespectful for someone to call you an influencer because the athlete thing is, or the athlete identity or or you as an athlete should overshadow the whole influence thing because it's just a different, it's a different thing, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, no, I think it is. I think it's interesting because you wouldn't call like uh Dwayne Wade an influencer just because he has a huge uh social media following. He's a pro athlete, but it's interesting in running where we don't have these, like in the NBA, you're in the NBA and you're a professional basketball player, and it's pretty like cut and dry. I feel like with running, there's not like this overarching organization, and a lot of people have blurred the lines between like what a pro runner is, like some people call themselves pro runners, they don't even have sponsorships, and there's just kind of like this weird gray area. So then influencers came in, and to the lay person, maybe they do look similar in some ways. Um, if you like have no context of what a good 10k time is, and you're just looking at like content online, so it is kind of an I think running's a unique sport in that way, like um pretty interesting to I I could write an article too on like how do we define a pro runner, even because it seems kind of subjective for the most part. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting concept. That article got a lot of traction though, and like a lot of people um discourse about it, which was really cool to see. And for the most part, I think people agreed. Um, because I know like part of a pro athlete's job is to sell products for a company, but really you're doing that organically. Like if you win a race in a pair of shoes, people want to buy those shoes. It's not because you like had the coolest reel on Instagram or yeah, it's kind of a cool thought um to have to talk about with people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think it resonated really well, and it it's I don't know, it's a conversation that I think needs to be brought up more and and talked about because yeah, I I do I see a lot of athletes that either don't have contracts, call themselves pro-runners. I see a lot of the I don't know, it's like the hybrid bros are like calling themselves pro athletes now, but also have crazy followings. It's it's a I don't know, it's a very running unique problem. Because like you said, like LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, these are athletes of the highest caliber that have massive followings. And I I think you're you're kind of unique in the way. Because like even Joe, like let's say Joe Gray, for example, like Joe only has like 13,000 followers on Instagram. Like I think he's criminally underrated on social media for the person that he is. But you have really, especially on the short trail side, which is not a big thing in the United States and really, I guess, bigger in Europe, but you've seemed to have eclipsed that with your following and really brought the sport to where it's noticeable or uh really gets the sport out to the world with what you've done on the social media side. So I do I find it very unique and interesting that you've been able to break that mold um on the social media thing.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks. Yeah, it's been it wasn't intentional really on my part. Um it happened pretty naturally, just kind of like in college and coming out of college and sharing authentically. But I would say the landscape has changed a lot in probably the last three years. The algorithms have changed significantly, and they definitely favor different types of content now, and um just sharing yourself organically isn't rewarded as much as it was in the past, and that's been kind of an interesting shift too, and what brands reward versus like what the algorithm is pushing, and there's kind of I feel like something kind of an at odds with that. Um and then it's been weird to see like where the money goes too, and it's shifting. I think I'm hoping the pendulum swings back in the other direction, but yeah, it's been a little interesting to see how contracts have changed and what brands are looking for, what the budget is it a marketing budget or a like an athlete budget paying for this stuff? And what category do I fall under when I'm talking to these brands? So yeah, it's kind of it's an interesting dialogue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, no, it really is, especially on the brand side. I feel like that's a really nuanced conversation. And one that I I don't know if people really understand that, like in a marketing budget, yes, like for instance, if I'm you know, an athlete influencer let's say I'm an influencer, right? That comes out of the general marketing budget. But if you're an athlete, that comes out of a separate budget in the marketing department. And and usually those pools of monies are lesser for the athletes in general than they are for, say, the influencers. And that kind of creates, in my opinion, I feel like that creates some friction because I'm not saying it's difficult, or I'm not saying it's not difficult to become an influencer. I think that's a That's a different thing. But I do understand how hard it is to be an athlete at the highest level and how much of a type like tightrope that is to walk, how hard that is. So I feel like that does create friction in some degrees and is worth a conversation. And hopefully brands start to see that a little bit more as time goes on and as the sport evolves. Like, how they have they planned to reconcile that, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I'm hoping we can see more reconciliation too. And I've purposefully stepped away from any brands or offers where they're focused on reach or engagement. Um, because I've been burned a couple times. The year that I won World Champs for the second time and also got bronze in the VK, I got dropped by two brands because they said that I didn't get enough engagement on like reels on social media. And I was like, okay, this is kind of a breaking point for me. Like, I feel like I just reached the pinnacle of my sport and what I was trying to do. And you're telling me it wasn't good enough. And I think we just have a mismatch here of priorities because my goal is not to sell the most number X number of products, it is to win these races. So yeah, I kind of stepped away from like those monthly posting type of partnerships. Um, partnerships that are big that want to see like engagement metrics, because that's also out of my control. And Instagram can change the algorithm any way they want, and I I don't get to have any say in that, so it's not fair that the responsibility is put on me. Um so yeah, I think that's kind of what the point of my article was was the maybe the jobs look similar on paper, but the priority of the individual differs from is it to sell products or is it to win races? And like what's your number one priority?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I think it was beautifully written, and I I applaud you for putting I I I love any person that's able to put these ideas out into the world and have conversation around it. And uh there was another one that you wrote about, and we don't have to go too deep in the list, but it was athletes talking about uh political views. And we do live in a crazy world right now, times are nuts. Um, but one of the things that I I found like after after reading that, uh it was on the social media side. Like there were some really negatively written things in the comments, and I was just like, it really just like really upset me and like let me down. Uh like I was like, man, like I can't believe people would have such a strong opinion one way or another. But the to like write in your comments and say negative things like that, um obviously you deal with that a lot being having such a big following. How do you deal with that? Do you just like not read comments anymore? Or you just like stay away from all that stuff because you're like that is kind of very public eye-facing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I gotta be honest, I've had to go through like a lot of therapy to learn how to deal with it effectively because I'm not a naturally thick-skinned person. So um, yeah, it's been many years in the making, but I think now I've just realized people are gonna say shit and someone's always gonna disagree. There's gonna be someone that wants to say something just to make you mad, also, and get a rise out of you, and there's no other point to it. Um, so kind of letting that stuff slide off has been I've tried not to let it get to me. There's been like past Reddit threads that I've definitely like had stuck in my brain for way too long and wish I hadn't read those comments, but now I think with the political stuff, and that's partly why I also wanted to get my degree in sustainability, because I felt like I was talking a lot about sustainability and climate change and working with Protect Our Winters on the Athlete Alliance, but it was all just felt kind of performative, like I'm just using this social media platform to spread this message. But is there a way I could make more actual change and like be a bigger cog in this wheel than just like a mouthpiece for these things? So um that was part of why I wanted to pursue my master's, and then it's felt a lot better working with the sustainability consulting job I have now of like, okay, now I'm helping to produce actual sustainability reports for these companies, and we're following federal and international regulations, and I'm like really trying to help them do actual things instead of just like spouting reels on Instagram of like go vote, which I still think is important, but um maybe there's just like better ways to use our talents and our time to yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So interesting to me. Uh so maybe go into, and you don't have to go into crazy detail, but I'm just so curious, like uh with the sustainability background and like what you're doing for your role in that. Like, I my first job, uh I have a geology degree, and my first job I was an environmental consultant in South Florida, and I was so let down by the consulting world to see like, okay, like you know, you read about these credits and wetlands and all this different stuff that a lot of times big business rules, and you know, they're gonna tear up a wetland if they can get their hands on it to be, but they're gonna pay this car for this credit. It's a it's a very complicated world. Um, maybe talk about like your role in sustainability and what you do uh like with that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, my title is sustainability specialist. Um I kind of am like a I work it's part-time, so I feel like I'm kind of a Swiss Army knife for them and kind of do what we need. But for the most part, um the company is called Obata. So if you need a report, come to us. But we write sustainability reports and do design work and consulting for larger companies. Um and yeah, we've seen a fair bit of greenwashing. I hesitate to say that, but it's been nice because the people that I work with are pretty committed to not um releasing reports that are like that. So we've had to have some uncomfortable conversations with clients, like you can't say this, or you need to be able to validate these claims. We can't just be writing them, um, which feels like it's doing something. At least we're like forcing them to think about stuff and not just release things because they think it sounds nice. And then I guess what I do specifically is a lot of the copywriting, proofreading. Um I like the data tables because engineering. So I usually get sent the data tables to verify too, which has been pretty fun and making sure like their CO2 equivalent calculations check out and that they're not fabricating numbers for these reports. And the reports are sustainability reports or ESG reports, kind of depends on the company, and they get sent to investors and customers, clients, um, pretty much any stakeholder. Uh, and most of the reports are publicly available on company websites, so that's nice too, because it just feels like you're doing something and um helping them reach their like net zero targets and tracking them. So yeah, I guess in some ways I've been a little disappointed with consulting too, and how like little power we really have, but it's nice to work with people that are willing to stand up to the client and say, can we say this better, or you can't say this, or um yeah, like you need to do better. So it's a give and a take, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's an interesting field. It's very interesting. And it's I don't know, it's cool work because you get to see, you get to actually put your degree to work and see more of like what goes on behind the scenes. And it's it's different from the training life, which I feel like feel like is more I don't know, training is just different where it's every day you're putting in something uh for a goal, whereas it's I don't know, the the reward benefit is like different in in like a day job. It's kind of yeah, different, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the corporate world reward benefit system is much different from the little bit easier, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. Are you are you just like naturally good at math? Like I'm just so curious because getting an engineering degree in undergrad while also, I guess what you you played soccer and then you went to cross country track and field. How did you manage trying because an engineering degree is not easy to get? Like, I how how did that play out for you? Like, was it like a struggle or was it did it come very naturally for you?
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, I came very naturally. I graduated as the like sumakum laud or whatever of my class. Um I don't know, I've always really liked school and been good at school, and I think it just the structure of it and my brain works well together, which is fortunate because I know that that's not the case for everyone, and it has like no inflect reflection on intelligence, I think. Um, but yeah, I've always liked school and math, and so it wasn't too bad. Interesting. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Very interesting. Um, all right, let's let's shift gears. We got I want to talk athletics with you. Um all right, so this is like mindset stuff. I'm so interesting uh so interesting to talk to you and get to learn more about this aspect. For you, it it you were very good very early on, and you're it seems like your career kind of came on very fast. Very quickly, you became a two-time world champion, you meddled three times at worlds, you became a four-time national champion, and it happened so fast for you. What I'm trying to understand is like what was that level of pressure like in your career to do that and handle that? And and once you won one national title to or world title to try and do another one. Like, I guess what I'm trying to get at is like um the level of pressure you put on yourself and the level of pressure outside and how you handled that and dealt with that.
SPEAKER_02:That's a good question. I think it definitely put a lot of pressure on pretty early, and even from the beginning, I didn't start running until I was 19 and I was a sophomore in college, and the first year went from the worst person on my team to the best person on my team, and then ended up qualifying for nationals in two events, like at year two. Um, by year four, was like competing to win national titles and then CAA. So there wasn't ever like a calm learning period. It felt like every year is like these massive jumps up, and I've always kind of said that my training age has like progressed physically a lot quicker than it has mentally. It took me a long time to catch up to like where I was physically on the mental side. So, like when I signed a pro contract, I'd been running for four years at that point, and I was like, I didn't run an XN, like I didn't have this high school career, I don't have all these like race experiences to fall back on. And um it's been a sometimes a struggle to keep up with maybe the self-pressure more than anything. I think I probably project a lot of the public pressure onto myself that maybe isn't there, but I do hold myself to a high standard, and so when you accomplish something, you want to better it the next time. So when you win worlds, like you want to win again because that's like matching your best, at least. Um so it's been at times can be a little debilitating and probably something I need to keep working on. But I think now that I'm kind of a little bit older, this is year, let's see, I started running professionally in 2020. So this is year going into your eight.
SPEAKER_00:Um crazy, and you've accomplished so much. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:Um, it's getting, I think I'm catching up finally to like where I was physically, mentally, and learning that like not every race has to be this like giant thing, and I can go try stuff. But even last year, like I was pretty disappointed to get fifth at um broken arrow because that was on that was my worst finish at a trail race ever. I've never gotten worse than I think second in something. So getting fifth, I was like, oh man, I suck at 50Ks. And it took a while to like come around to like okay, no, that might be an exaggeration. Maybe you just didn't knock it out of the park, and like you're not gonna do that every time. Um, yeah, and then like the confidence piece too. It took like three national titles before I was like, oh, I'm good at this for some reason. Um, yeah, I guess I'm not like a naturally super confident person when it comes to accomplishments. It's it's a weird dichotomy because then in races I feel like, well, I'll just go try my best and like I'll go do it. But before the race, I have this like panic that I'm like, oh, I'm not good enough, I suck, and maybe other people feel that too. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, this is so interesting to me. And this is kind of piggybacking uh with the question that I have is that like there's there's a period of time, really from I don't know, 2019 to 2024. I mean, obviously this year you you switched things up, you did a lot of different stuff, and so we'll and we're gonna talk about this year a little bit, but there's a period of time where you're absolutely unbeatable, like no one can beat you. And you have there's gotta be you have to have crazy confidence going into these races. I mean, or at least projecting that in some way, shape, or form. Is that just coming from the sheer compet from you being a competitive person? Or is that you just having this confidence when you when you start the race that I'm going to win this? Or are you terrified the whole time? Like what is that mental like what are you what's going through your head?
SPEAKER_02:I think going into it, it's I get really bad pre-race jitter, so going into it, I'm definitely like, I'm gonna the like worst case scenario, I'm gonna like fall off this cliff or like break my leg or something. But for some reason, as soon as the gun goes off, and this has happened my whole career, something like washes over me, and I think maybe I'm just I'm quite competitive in those situations, so then it's just like tunnel vision, like all you got. And for the most part, during the race, I'm not thinking I'm going to win, but I am thinking like I'm gonna run as hard as I can, and if someone happens to beat me, good on them, because I know I'm this like really freaking hurts, so good for them if they can like handle more of this than I can. Um just kind of knowing like you're gonna give it everything you've got, and uh yeah, I think that usually serves me pretty well. I have learned like maybe there should be more finesse to some races, and it doesn't need to be 110% every time you race because that is a great way to get burnt out, and um you can't do that every time, but yeah, it's kind of a nice superpower, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. There's uh I mean there's an argument that I don't even think it's an argument anymore. I mean, in your career, what you've done so far, there's a and I've only handed this compliment out to Joseph Gray. I mean, you're probably uh, you know, the greatest female North American trail runner uh mountain runner of all time. And I mean, if that if if it was to be said and done tomorrow, how does that make you feel? Like, was that ever a goal? Or is it just like I'm just gonna put my body of work together and do everything I possibly can to be the best I can be? But when you hear those words, because it's it's true, like how does that make you feel? Or like how how do you think through something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that is quite the compliment, so thank you. Um yeah, I guess it's kind of weird. That wasn't the goal. I didn't know mountain running was a thing until I did my first Zirk series race, and that was the first day I met Joe, too. Funny enough, but um, yeah, I I just wanted to try my best, and there was never like a body of work that I was shooting for, and it just kind of came naturally. I think now, having more experience, there are like some body of work goals that I'm starting to think about as I'm deeper into the trail world and kind of see what's out there, but yeah, it's kind of it's weird to have that compliment, and that wasn't really happy accident, I guess. But that wasn't really the intent.
SPEAKER_00:It's cool, it's cool to see. I mean, it's neat because we're in this time period now where you know we still have a lot of our greats are still in the sport, you know. Like Joe hasn't moved on yet, he's still doing the thing, and you know, you're still very much a player and doing your thing, and it's cool. We have this new crop of athletes coming up. Uh, it's a very special time in Short Trail right now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm excited to be back.
SPEAKER_00:Can you talk about um because a good friend of the podcast is Jane Moss. I know she's very important to your story, and you guys have been friends for a very long time. Can you tell the story about your first trail race and how she played a very big role in that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, Jane took me to my first trail. Well, her parents drove us. Um and Jane and I have been really good friends since high school. We were on the same soccer team, and we went to high school together, and um, it's been really cool. In high school, she was the runner and she was the track star, and I didn't participate in track, but we met because our freshman year tryout for soccer. I was used to being the fastest one on every soccer team I've ever been on. And then um, freshman year tryout, this girl was with me still, and we were like trying to beat each other at the beep test or one of those stupid tests for soccer. I was like, who is this girl? She's so fast, and I've never been challenged before in a running race. And it was Jane, and she's always been a super talented runner. Um so after college, my in 2019, I was home in Salt Lake, and there was a trail race on my birthday, the Brighton Cirque series, and Jane was doing it, and she was like, You should do this, and she'd been doing dabbling in trail running too at that point. Um, so I was like, okay, and her parents picked me up and we drove up there, and I was I had no idea what to expect, so I just like got on the start line and thought I'd follow the lead women and see what happened, and um finished and ended up getting second anime and was like, oh, that was really cool, like had no context, and then was waiting and expected Jane to be like quite close behind. Um, and she just wasn't there. And me and her parents were like, Where the heck is Jane? What the heck is she doing? And then we get this call. We're kind of starting at this point, it's taking long enough. That we're starting to ask the volunteers, like, do you know has anyone gotten hurt or anything? And they're like, Oh yeah, someone fell and like smashed their face on a rock. And we were like, uh-oh. And then they they're like, they're coming, we'll send them down on the chairlift. Um, so I was standing with her parents at the chairlift, and here comes Jane. Poor Jane. She had fallen and smashed her nose on a rock and blood everywhere, and they sent her down on a chairlift with the tampon in her nose to stop the bleeding.
SPEAKER_00:Poor Jane.
SPEAKER_02:I know. Um, so that we we joke about that, but I think we had a redemption because we both raced at Worlds and she ended up having an awesome day. And so it's not a bad luck of us being in the same race together. We've recovered.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's so cool. I mean, you guys got to race twice this year with Broken Arrow and then Worlds. Um, it's cool to have seen her star like really grow over the last year as an athlete in the sport. I mean, it it's it must be very special for someone like you as well to you know have such a close friend and someone that you've known for so long, uh, you know, really just start to. I mean, she really made a gigantic name for herself this year. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's been really fun. And knew it was in there. Like, I mean, after seeing her that freshman year at that practice, was like, dang, she's a really good runner. So she's always been so talented. So to see it finally, all the pieces come together, and she dealt with some like really frustrating injury stuff too. That was just super unlucky for a couple years. So finally, she's like everything is like coming together and working out, and it's really cool. And I'll just live vicariously through Jane.
SPEAKER_00:That's funny. That's funny. Um, all right, let's pivot a little bit. I want to talk about this year because this was this was an interesting year for you. I know it's been a difficult year. Um, I know you had, and you could talk about it if you uh if you want to be open about it. If not, we don't have to, we can move on. Um, but as far as uh your Crohn's diagnosis and being able to work through that and still race at an extremely high level, I find that crazy, like how you're able to do both. Um, maybe talk a little bit about that. That must have been very difficult for you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that was the diagnosis itself actually felt like a relief and like, oh fine, I know it's wrong, and there's a treatment for this. But the 18 months leading up to that of being untreated and trying to race it and not really being able to, the training was really hard. Um, I keep saying the training with Crohn's was way harder than training with pregnancy husband, if that like puts it into perspective. But yeah, it was like a bittersweet, I guess, to get that diagnosis. Because of course it's really nice to know, and there's treatment and which I've responded really well to, but it's also like a lifelong thing that you're gonna have to kind of manage and deal with. And um part of me was a little bit nervous about the repercussions of what are sponsors gonna think of this? Like, is having this gonna look like a disadvantage? And yeah, so kind of navigating that, but um was lucky that that was part of the reason too why I chose the 50k focus for the year because uh for whatever reason that bigger volume but lower intensity stuff was working a lot better as we tried to get the inflammation down everywhere in my body, and um yeah, it was kind of fun. I felt like broken arrow was cool experience, very painful first 50k. Um, but liked it and then was able to get a lot more volume before speed goat, and that felt like a big step. Um, was closer to Jen, was second or third, and felt like okay, I'm like making progress in this new discipline. Um moving up, yeah, and then was like very excited for worlds because I felt like training had been going so well and was ready for like three third times the charm, and I like yeah. Um so luckily the Crohn stuff after getting the diagnosis has been like a dream recovery, and once the treatment really started working, it's been like really nice, and I have no complaints, and I feel like back to my normal self in that way. So I'm really grateful that that kind of for at least right now and knock on wood, um, has been okay.
SPEAKER_00:I love to hear that. It I mean, I I can ask you this just because uh I don't know, I feel like it's a particularly interesting it's an athlete problem, but it's also a uniquely American problem. Trying to, when you have something going on, going to multiple doctors, trying to figure out what in the world is wrong with me and getting different stories from this one, this doctor, going to another one. What was your journey like through that? Was it very much asking a lot of people, trying to get it figured out? I know it probably took a while, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it took really long time. I think I started noticing symptoms after Worlds in 2023. Um, and that was June, and then it didn't it took until I guess February of 2025 to get a diagnosis. And through that time, I have been told some of the craziest things by doctors. You would not believe like some of the things they've said. And pretty much the last couple months I had just started to kind of think, oh, this is in my head. Um, because I'd heard so many times, nothing's wrong with you, you're fine, like it looks fine. And Crohn's is an autoimmune disease, so then that kind of like I feel like those are tricky to pin down in general, too. And sometimes a lot of times, your blood work could be fine, and you're kind of chasing these like vanishing symptoms at times. Um, I had one doctor tell me that it was the altitude, like, oh, it's just because you live at altitude. And I was like, what are you talking about? No, it's not. Um, yeah. So, and then they just all started to be like, maybe just have anxiety, um, or you're depressed or something. Yeah. Well, I'm starting to get depressed because I feel so bad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, speaking of that, I mean, that's kind of like my next question was that has to be a horrible feeling to be feeling a certain way, going to all these doctors, getting different stories, being told these things, knowing something's wrong with me clearly, and uh, you know, and it taking this long to finally to get an answer. So that's gotta, I can't imagine that. That's gotta be horrible.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was a mind F.
SPEAKER_00:You could say fuck on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was a mind fuckers, for sure. Because I too, I remember when I transferred schools in college, um, when I talked to the Utah coach, the thing I told him, I was like, I'm really good at listening to my body, and I feel really confident about this, and I'm really good at this. So then to have that kind of like have a bunch of people in their professional field tell you you're wrong, at the end of 18 months, I started to like not trust my body at all, not trust any signal that I was getting from it. And I was like, what the heck happened? Like, I I built this whole career on being good at listening to my body, and now everyone's telling me I'm wrong, and I'm so confused. Um, so getting that diagnosis was I almost I we kind of did celebrate just because it felt like, oh my gosh, I I was right this whole time. Something was wrong, and I should listen to my body. Um gaining that trust back in training took probably till after Speed Goat, so through the whole summer, but yeah, like learning to trust the signals from my body again and not tell myself, no, you're wrong. Um, don't listen to it was a process.
SPEAKER_00:I bet, I bet. Well, athletes know their bodies the best. Like, I mean, I think and I've had this conversation with doctors before in the past for like an injury. If I have something like coming on, I'll immediately, you know, go to a PT or something and get it looked at. And that's always the conversation is athletes know their bodies best. Like they're so in tune with what's going on. So for a doctor to tell you otherwise, it's like, what are we doing here? Um I'm gonna shift gears a little bit and get to talk about the mountain classic versus the short trail and that change for you. The first question I have, and I'm just so excited to ask this because Mountain Classic is my favorite distance. It really like I love the Cirque series races, I love that distance in general. What like you developed this like mastery for it? Like you figured it out, and I've heard you talk about in other podcasts. Like that was a Rubik's Cube that like you had put together and seemed to have figured out really well. What about that distance? Like, what is it? Like, what like what did you figure out? Just because I'm just so intrigued to ask that. Like, what what is it about that one that you have seemed to have cracked?
SPEAKER_02:I guess I don't know. It seems like a simple formula. Um, in general, the races are an up and a down for the most part. Um, sometimes they're two laps, and so it's I don't know, it's like all gas. Um and usually I'm very well, I am very confident in my downhill running abilities and downhill technical running abilities. So for the most part, my strategy was always like all 100% to the top, and then your downhill technical ability will carry you through to the bottom, and it just like seemed to work time and time again. And I I wasn't afraid to after a while after doing it a handful of times, I wasn't afraid to like literally at the top have like emptied myself out, and then but you have a downhill, and aerobically it's not challenging, so if you can flush that lactate quickly, um, and then be good at downhill running, you're good. And for the most part, like no one was able to put together the two pieces in that same way, so it felt like, oh, I just do this over and over again and it keeps working.
SPEAKER_00:So interesting. Did you like in your builds? I know uh like you had been very verbose and like talked about just the the training difference between this type of distance versus something like a short trail, obviously way more intensive. Were you spending a lot more time on the track? Was it a lot more workouts? Like, what did that I guess that training structure look like?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was a lot more high-intensity stuff, uh, a lot less volume, less time on feet. Because the races are only up to 90 minutes or less. Um they were like 75 minutes, so it's basically like running a half marathon on the road time-wise, and so I would kind of train like I was trying to run like my fastest 10k to half marathon road time, and then aerobically you were just so efficient, and there wasn't really a need. I'm good at climbing, and then the descending part too, so that was maybe like I just got lucky with those pieces, but I didn't really need to train 30 minutes worth of climbing, um, or 40 minutes worth of technical descending, and in the race, too. The two-lap ones are a little more complicated, like how the format was for worlds this time and last time. Um, a little more consideration of like the effect of the eccentric loading on the downhill on the first lap and how that affects the second lap. But when it's a one-lap race, who cares if you're like super sore and ripped up by the bottom of your it's the finish line, so it's okay. Um, I was a lot of track stuff, a lot of road workouts, and then with the short trail, it was a lot more volume, time on feet, uh, a lot more zone two, which I wasn't used to, and it's like a whole new art that I'm learning. Um holes, yeah, eating. That was all like crazy different things to add in. So yeah, it's a lot more similar to a road race, I think, than the short trail stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. I mean, that explains why track athletes seem to cross over and have such success at that those types of distances right away. Um, was it was it exciting for you to do something different this year to kind of leave the leave the the mountain classic behind and go to the short trail?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely. It was a fun new challenge, and I've never been the person, I guess kind of back to your other question of like, was this the intent the whole time? And I want to be good at lots of stuff, but also like challenge myself with new things. My goal is never to win like a hundred short mountain races. Um yeah, I think like feeling like okay, I like get I have this mountain running skill, so now I want to have like a sub ultra 50k skill too, and let me go like work on that tool and sharpen that tool instead. Um, so it felt like a new challenge, a new puzzle, like all the the again, the food piece has been like a big change here out there for just way longer. Um polls was a new addition. Yeah, lots of zone two, lots of like just long hours in the mountains, and that wasn't really what I was used to. So that was just like a lot of fun new things to try and be open to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it mixes it up, it keeps things fresh. It's like, you know, like you said, it's just something different, different challenge too. There's new, you know, you get to race a lot of kind of new faces, like you know, Danny and like uh, I don't know, Jen Lichter, like a lot of those athletes that you competed against this summer, like you know, weren't doing the shorter stuff, the really short stuff, right? They get to do the longer stuff, a little bit longer stuff. So I guess it's fun to mix it up with them and just have different competition, fresh faces, new things, right?
SPEAKER_02:New expectations, no expectations. That was a nice part too. Coming back from Crohn's, um, it was kind of tough to be like, oh, you need to get back to where you were. And so also part of picking 50k stuff was let's try this new thing, and there's no expectation, and it's a lot less pressure because if you're not good at it, no one really expects. I mean, maybe people think you could be, but it's not like you're Jen and you're the best 50k runner in the world right now, so just like go try it and see. Um, so that helped too, I think, like setting those expectations, and it was actually like a lot more, even though it was frustrating to get fifth um at Broken Arrow, it was more motivating than when I won the US title in 2024. Because I felt like, oh, that wasn't that fun. Like, I just I don't know, um, need like more of a kick in the butt, I guess. So then getting fifth was like, I have stuff to work on and go like perfect this. And I was maybe getting lazy with the mount and stuff because it just felt like X plus Y equals Z every time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, you had the formula cracked. I mean, and then and then you didn't, and something new, you know. It's but at the same time, like, I don't know. Like, if if like as you start to figure out working through your autoimmune disease and start working through all that, um, like I I no doubt in my mind you'll have it figured out within the next yeah, you know, a few months. It's not that you know, I I don't know. Someone like you and your caliber of athleticism, like it's it's pretty straightforward. Um, I gotta ask you about like just inside baseball stuff on Worlds. I mean, this is just out of pure curiosity because I felt like it was it was really cool to see you move up, go to a different uh distance, and then it created an opportunity for someone like Courtney Coppinger, right? Who um had a great race at Sun of P. She's had an amazing season in her own right, and it created an opportunity for her to go to Worlds. How like was that always kind of the plan? Like you had obviously had the auto bid to go to uh back to worlds on the short trail or on the uh up down. When you applied though, you had to have thought like there's no way I'm not gonna get a spot. Like, you have to get a spot, right?
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah, I thought I would. I knew that they were um weighting broken arrow more heavily just because that was a selection race, and I I went into the race wanting to get the one of the auto spots from there, but then I knew that um Danny was likely not going to take her spot, and same with Helen. Well, she ended up taking the 50k, but Jen too, uh into the 100k. So knew kind of like okay, like top five should get you in um within reason. So I wasn't like super shocked, but did have to like kind of apply, even though it was kind of a they just took the like top five of us from Broken Arrow. But yeah, it was cool. And I had told Courtney beforehand too, like this is kind of my plan, so be ready. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I love that. So cool, so cool. I'm a big Courtney Coppinger fan, so I'm glad that that worked out. Um, so cool. What um I don't know, like it must have been pretty cool going out there, and like the entire women's team was like coached by Rick Floyd. Like that I thought that was pretty dope. Shout out to Rick Floyd.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was cool to have him there. I've never had a coach at a race before like that, so in my whole pro career. Um, so it's just like really cool to have a coach there and felt like college again a little bit. It was unfortunate that it was like the race that I had. Um, but he was still, it was like nice to have his like come for after. And yeah, he's awesome. And he coaches great athletes. For sure.
SPEAKER_00:For sure, for sure. All right, I I gotta ask you the question as we start to wind down to an hour. As far as goals go, like what else do you want to do? Like, you've done so much. It's gotta be a mind fuck to be like, all right, like what else do I do? Um, is it more so stick with the this did the longer distances, that marathon to 50k and perfect that? Well, is you do you want to go back to the mountain class? Like, like what do you kind of want to do going forward over the next few years?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess my more immediate goals and kind of coming back postpartum, I would like to run a fast road marathon. That's been on my bucket list for quite some time and things keep getting in the way. So um, yeah, I would love to get a fast time, at least an OTQ, but I'm hoping a much faster time than that, uh, this fall, late fall, and then kind of go from there. I think I haven't done a lot of the golden trail stuff I would like to do. Um that distance where it's like a little longer than like a classic mountain race really interests me. And winning the whole series sounds like a cool career resume item. Um, and then yeah, still dabbling in that longer stuff. And seeing like how does it feel? I do think because I still want to run fast on the road, the training diverges a little too far for like the hundred mile, 100K and road marathon. So I'm gonna need to plan that out. But um yeah, I think that's kind of where my head's at right now.
SPEAKER_00:Very cool. I mean I was gonna bring up series and all because I would that's a race that I you have all the tools in the world to absolutely demolish. So it would be really cool to see. Yeah, I think of all the ones, like that's the to to have a good race there, I feel like would would mean a lot. That's a really storied course, and so many incredible athletes have done well there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think road marathon training, I've always said I think if you trained to run 225 on the road and then showed up at series and all, you would crush. And I think that could be a really good plan. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, definitely, definitely. I got I got a question for you. I I actually meant to ask this earlier. Who inspires you in the sport? Like, I feel like everyone's always been inspired by you. So who who gets who who gets you excited in the sport?
SPEAKER_02:I think my friends do. So Courtney and Jane and Danny and um the people that I'm close to, and just seeing them work through like they all have their own things to work through, but then they work through it and have these breakthrough moments, and it is so worth it, and it pays off. And I think what inspires me the most is like persistence through those things. Um yeah, and maybe that's just because I've had like a tumultuous last two-ish years. Um, so seeing people like persist through that and then come out the other side and still crush has been like really inspiring. And then lately, I guess seeing the moms that come back and crush, that's a fear of mine. And I yeah, I know people come back, but it's still a fear. So seeing that be a reality and that like you can come back from this um is really cool.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, the mom energy, serious. Like, I've seen some some moms come back and and do really well.
SPEAKER_01:So absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Um what's your what's your thought on the sport right now? Like, are you uh I know maybe I save this for too late, but like are you are you excited about the direction of the sport? Like, is there anything that has you really stoked? Like I know there's a lot of talk about the Olympics and this, that, and the other, and now there's like pretty significant professionalization and it's starting to improve a lot. What's your take on it? Like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, maybe this is another of my hot takes. Um I I like the idea of it being in the Olympics. Um maybe that's because too I came at trail running. One where I I revere mountain running, I'm not like a ultra snob, and I think that it's just as hard or harder, and just because the it's like saying the 800 just because it's not as long as the 10k on the track isn't as respectable, which is so silly. Um so yeah, I guess I get the perspective of people like it's a dirtbag sport, and like we want to keep it that way, but I also think the opportunity to go to the Olympics and have it on that stage is really cool, and it would really settle the argument of what's the like pinnacle of mountain running right now, because I think you have like Golden Trail saying it's them, and then you have world champs saying no it's us, and um, it'd be nice to settle that argument, but yeah, I guess I on that side I do like it. I think professionalization-wise, if we're gonna go that route, there's some things that need to change, like it shouldn't cost me$500 to sign up for OCC. Um the pros should be they should be paying us to attend the race, uh, just like how it's set up in road running. And so I think, yeah, there's some like give and take there. I think if they want us to pay, then they can't be asking for like media stuff and all this stuff for free. Because at the end of the day, like we get paid to do this, it is our job, our full-time job to do this, most of us. And it's like asking us to work for free and pay to work, which is kind of silly. Um, so yeah, maybe another hot take.
SPEAKER_00:No, I like it. I like it. On the hot take, like, I one of the things I think a lot of folks appreciate, because you are a leader in our sport, are are you oh like I think you should start a podcast or like have more of these discussions? Because I don't know, like I think having these conversations is how, in my opinion, how things get done. Like, I've tried to be more verbose lately in talking about like, well, why do we favor Ultra so much in America? Like, why isn't there more of a short trail discussion? Why why is it such a hassle to try and build this fan base and all these different things? And I think people would really appreciate hearing more from someone like yourself, and um, especially from where you're at. Because I, you know, I know Joe's been very big on the anti-doping, he talks about that all the time. Um, but it's from someone like yourself, like I think the audience would genuinely appreciate the hot takes. So keep keep them going.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I'll keep them going. Yeah, I have plenty of hot takes to go around.
SPEAKER_00:I like it. I like it. Do you um uh like one last question on this is like uh we are a very ultra-centric sport in the United States, and and short trail is finally, it seems like there's a lot more D1 athletes starting to roll into the system and it's growing the sport and it's getting more eyes through things like Golden Trail and the Cirque series and onward and onward. But like we have, I feel like we have a star problem. Like, I I we don't have as many people like you where everyone is starting, like everyone knows who you are, but like people now are starting to learn who Ana is and and Lauren Gregory and athletes like that. How do we build those stars? How do we get the sport bigger and have more of a North American audience? That's that's like what I want to say more.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That's a good question. I think that building that interest and even just a knowledge that those races exist. I think a lot of people, like when I go to a doctor or some some random place, and then I'm like, oh, I do trail running, and they're like, oh, so ultras like hundred miles. And it's like the everyone knows a marathon too. Um is kind of the most recognizable distance. But maybe if we just more more eyeballs on like the shorter races, um, it'll be cool to see what Broken Arrow does this year with that prize purse that they have, and uh like what what athletes are gonna show up from that, and are some random trail or road athletes gonna show up just to try and win like 30 grand? Because I think I would if I was a random road athlete.
SPEAKER_00:Um absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that could be like a cool way to inject some eyes into the sport and get people excited, but then again, with that's why I like the idea of the Olympics because it would likely be a mountain classic race um to half marathon, like flower style, kind of like Golden Trail does. But I think people would be really into that. And if you did it somewhere like in LA, for example, and you had it on Mount Tam, a lot of people have like hiked or run it, so they have some concept of how hard it is. And then if you were like, oh look, Remy can run up it in 25 minutes, people would be like, My mind is blown, that is so fast, and I think that could get people on board too, just like making it relatable to people and more eyeballs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's uh, you know, I I always had mixed opinions on the Olympics for us, but I I have to think that it's it's the benefits outweigh the negatives. The reason I was had mixed opinions on it was because uh I don't know. My big thing is I want athletes to make it's not a long career, and I want the athletes to make as much money as humanly possible before it's all said and done. No, seriously, and like I feel like in the Olympics, because of the TV rights and things like that, you know, they still consider Olympians uh amateurs, not necessarily pros, which always drove me nuts. And I always thought that yes, there's sponsors involved, but I think the benefits of it would outweigh the negatives in the sense that it would attract more big sponsors to the sport. It gets the sport on the map with um on television, people learn what it is. It's gonna bring in, you know, a lot more non-endemic sponsors, and I think that helps grow the entire thing from the professional end. So yeah, it's it's it's interesting. It's gonna be wild to see what happens in the next two decades because I I think it probably will become one an Olympic sport, and to see like where that level of professionalization goes in that period of time, uh, just as far as athletes coming into the sport and things changing will be will be nuts.
SPEAKER_02:Do you have a here's a question for you um between cross country and trail running, which one should they add if they had to pick one?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, trail running, obviously. But the there, you know, there could be an argument for cross-country in the Winter Olympics. I've heard this brought up, I've heard this brought up a bunch. And that actually could work with cross-country putting the Winter Olympics somewhere. Um could make a different. But trail running, obviously, like like you said, the VK or you can add multiple distances. The VK would be an easy one, or at least an uphill race of some kind. And it's not that hard to find a hill, you know. I mean, some vertical relief of at least like give me 1800 feet to 3600, and we we're cooking then. Um, and then on the same hill, if you have, you know, three to six miles, you can put together a pretty solid race and and make it happen. So yeah, I think it's easy to do those, and I don't think it would be that difficult. I think the big question is, and this is a whole nother podcast, but how do we get our act together with anti-doping in the next few years? And I think we need, you know, we would need some sort of governing body. We need the uh, you know, we really would need an in and out of season testing pool. Like there's so many things we gotta go through to figure out, which I feel like sets us back immensely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think well, back to the cross-country trail. I think I I would love cross-country too, but I like the idea of trail because it selects from a different group of athletes. A lot of the cross-country athletes also compete on the track and the road, and you're gonna have the same 10 athletes uh competing for those spots, but the trail opens it up to like a new group and a new segment of the trail running or running community, which I like, but then with anti-doping, it's interesting because mountain running falls under like in the US, the USATF, oversees mountain ultra trail running, and a lot of people don't know that. But even though like I've won Worlds twice, I've never been on whereabouts because of those wins under USAT. But I was on whereabouts before that because I was on the NACAC cross country team, which is like a much lower tier, I would say, of competition. And then it's weird, like giving the I had to get a TUE for my Crohn's medication, and you saw that, it might have been Wada. They were like, sorry, you don't qualify under Wada. And I was like, What are you talking about? You test me all the time, like at every world I've been tested. You test at every US championship race. I've literally been tested so many times by you, and then they came back and they were like, Oh, you're right. So they even within the organization, like have a hard time knowing that trail falls under that umbrella, which is kind of crazy. Um, that's a I know, kind of scary, yeah, yeah. Um, Golden Trail is adding more like actual anti-doping stuff this year, which is cool. Um that was nice to see. Yeah, and that's a good progress, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's interesting. The Golden Trail topic is an interesting one because I and I'll be careful with what I say here, but like it's I've heard a lot more athletes be critical of the testing in recent years, um from like Pike's peak onwards. So, what is that 2023-ish onwards of the like the several years? And and it's it's come up a lot. And I'm I'm happy and stoked that like they'll start to do more with the testing and and there'll be more of that conversation involved because it does, it feels like there's an athlete it that it gets brought up with one or several of those athletes every year. So it's it's tricky, it's tricky. Um, yeah, I don't know. And it's it's very expensive to do an out-of-season testing pool or just a testing pool in general. And you know, there's that conversation. Do we figure out a way to work with the brands to have them subsidize it? But it's not really their space, their place to do that, you know. Like what do we do? And maybe we just need a billionaire. We just need someone with a lot of money that just comes in and throws the bag.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, uh UTMB could they make plenty of money, I think, but they can definitely afford to do more testing than I think they've done, but yeah, that's a different conversation.
SPEAKER_00:No, I agree. It's a whole other podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's optic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's you know what we are in the Wild West, like almost quote unquote the Wild West. I've had this conversation with uh with Joe numerous times and he's I hope that he will do more as his career uh, you know, as things change and as he starts, if he can obtain more power to be more of a voice, but not just a voice, but like play a role in the anti-doping stuff. Because I feel like we need an athlete that knows the the athletic side and can can contribute on that way um to play a big role and and hopefully others can step up and do that too. Because yeah, it's a big thing. I mean, it gets brought up all the time, and it's definitely like a hot topic, and we all want to compete in a fair and safe sport. And um, yeah, I don't know. It's funny. I I like Cam's take. Cam Cam Smith was joking about because now he's got all his whereabouts for the Olympics and stuff like that. Find that interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Olympic team, though.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, so I don't know. Well, listen, Grayson, I want to say thank you so much for your time. It was such a pleasure finally getting a chat with you and and learn more of your story. And um, yeah, I can't wait to do this again and uh wishing you the best of luck and the rest of your winter and spring, and we'll definitely be in touch.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thanks for having me on. It was really fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, appreciate it. What'd you guys think? Oh man, I want to thank Grayson so much for coming on the show. As always, it was an honor and a privilege, and uh just super stoked to uh have an opportunity to get to chat with her and help tell her story. Um, guys, the best way you can support Grayson is in a few different ways. First way, give her a follow on Instagram. It's gonna be linked in the show notes. You can find her at rayson underscore grayson. And the other way you can support her is by checking out her business. That's gonna be the Wild Strides Paper Company. You can find that on Instagram as well. It's gonna be linked in the show notes at Wild Strides Paper Co. Definitely give them a follow and check out all the really cool planners that they have. Um, some really cool. I mean, if you're thinking about stocking stuffers for next year or I need a quick gift for somebody, um, you know, that might be a runner in your family. Some really, really cool looking, eloquently designed planners in here. Um, I think everybody can benefit from some of these and just good stuff. So definitely give her some support there. Um, want to thank her, want to thank you guys for listening. Lots of really cool uh episodes coming down the pipeline. Um, if you guys have been enjoying the podcast, please give us a five-star rating on and review on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. And if you do listen to the show on YouTube and haven't subscribed yet, please hit that subscribe button. And uh yeah, and uh, it's all good stuff there. We've got episodes dropping with uh Mr. Mason Copi soon. Um we just did a podcast with uh none other than Soon to be Olympian Cam Smith. That'll be dropping in a few days as well. Um big week for the pod. We've also got some announcements coming down the pipeline that'll probably be shared in the next few weeks that I'm very excited for. And uh yeah, I really want to thank you all so much for supporting us and tuning in. Uh have a great rest of your week, everybody. Thank you.
