The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#154 - Mason Coppi
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What does it take to race on the edge, fix your flaws, and build a season that holds up under pressure? We dive deep with Mason Copi, fresh off a blistering run at the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships and a domestic campaign that turned him from underrated to undeniable. Mason opens up about starting fast when the course rewards it, working the early road section, and the moment when cramps hit yet belief held. You’ll hear how teammates on the course and a fired-up Team USA on the sidelines fueled each surge and why chasing the podium sometimes means accepting the crash.
Then we get practical. Mason breaks down how he transformed downhill running from a fear response into an advantage using exposure reps on technical segments and a simple “monster truck” form cue. He shares the training blueprint that keeps him healthy while racing often: threshold work for speed and lactate clearance, high aerobic volume buffered by the bike, and minimalist strength focused on hips, glutes, calves, and soleus. No fluff, no gimmicks—just the boring, repeatable work that lets you push hard again next week. We also explore how rising U.S. depth—think Taylor, Cam, Christian—lifts everyone, turning rivalry into fuel.
Looking ahead, Mason maps an ambitious 2026: sharpening for the USATF Half in Atlanta, testing range at the Boston Marathon, mixing mountain classics like Big Alta and Gorge, and stepping into the unknown at Speedgoat 50K to build muscular endurance and dial nutrition. He’ll chase a WMRA team spot at Sunapee and aim for an Olympic Trials qualifier at CIM, answering the bigger question of how fast a sub-ultra mountain runner needs to be now. We close with a candid look at free agency—why sponsorship timing is tricky, what autonomy enables, and how to keep betting on yourself when the budget says camp and the goals say compete.
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Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello. Today I am so excited to welcome Mason Copi back to the show. Not just return guest. I haven't talked to Mason since uh right before World. So it was really exciting to catch up with him and just talk about his 2025 season. Uh in his season, Mason was absolutely undeniable. Um there's no way around it. 14th in the world in the Massic Mountain Classic distance. He was second at the U.S. Mountain Running Championship at the Sun of Pete Scramble. He won at the Sturk Series Target race, the Snowbird race, the Alta race, Kendall Mountain Run Champion. I mean, you're talking about one of the best running seasons uh that we have seen in a very long time on the short trail side of the sport. And I felt like it was very underrated. And so, because of that, we brought Mason back on to chat and talk all about the season, talk about coaching, training, what he's been up to as of late, and uh what he's got planned for 2026. I hope you guys enjoy this one. I'm a giant fan of Mason's, and I think you should be too. So without further ado, Mr. Mason Copey. Ladies and gentlemen, all right, Mason Copey. Welcome back to the Deep Stuff Podcast. How are you doing, man?
SPEAKER_02:I'm doing well. How are you? So happy to be back on.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I know. It's great, man. I feel like this was uh, as always, I I genuinely enjoy our conversations, and uh, I feel like this one was long overdue. Um, having talked to you before Worlds, and then you have an amazing performance there. And we we didn't really get a chance to recap the summer or kind of talk about plans for 2026. So I'm uh really stoked to have you back on and and have a conversation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I'm I'm stoked as well. Like 2025 was really kind of like the dream year, you know, like ever like things just went so well um throughout the season, and to to cap it off with worlds was was really amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what did that I mean like obviously we talked before worlds, and it's obviously this huge honor to go represent your country and and and go perform over there. Well, like looking back on it now, being a few months removed, like is it like a dream? Like what like what were your like what are emotions like? Like, are you like, I'm like, are you hungry? What I'm trying to ask, I guess, is are you hungry to go back and try and do this again? Because I it's gotta be hard for someone of your caliber to reach this like crazy high level, and then now it's like, oh shit, I gotta go do this again. Like, here we go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, definitely. Like it's like a lot of things. Like it was a dream, dream uh event and and really good performance, and like so many things about that that race and that experience were special. So even from like going back before the race, like the really bonding with like my other team members on the classic team, um, both on the men's and women's side, like we did a training camp over the summer to get to know each other. And so I felt really close going in, like um knowing everyone, and that just made me really want to compete like for the team, like it felt like an actual team. Um, and so got to like go out to Spain, enjoy being like around everyone. Everyone was so like stoked together, and like then the race just like went really well. Like um, I it was actually really cool. I ended up packing up with um Taylor. Um, Taylor's back for a lot of the lot of the race. Um, we were kind of like right next to each other for a lot of times. Um, I would fall back, he would start pushing, I try to match that push, and like we're just constantly pushing together and working together. And I haven't really experienced that since like college, right? Like running, like actually working together with a team member, like that that hasn't been something I've experienced like in in so long. And so to be able to to do that on the world stage was was awesome. And um and so yeah, I think I think that was awesome and um really, really stoked with the result, getting 14th in in the world. Uh again, that was that was really exciting, and I was really happy with that result. Um, but to kind of go to the second part of your question, yeah, I I I did finish feeling like I was really happy with things, but that I wanted more. Like I did go into that race um wanting to get um top 10, or if we're being honest, top five. And I actually think there's a point in the race where I was top six, and I was thinking to myself, I want to be on the podium. Like that was just my thinking. Um, I I always want to like be pushing myself all out. And um I raced that way as well. Like I you could argue it was poor pacing because I was just kind of hammering from the gun.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I went out super.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you have to. I mean, I don't know if anyone saw the video of the the vertical race um right at the start, like how it like um narrowed down into a single file. People were crawling over each other. I remember talking to Cam Smith, and he said like someone grabbed him and he had to like brush off an arm just full on, like, yeah, throw an album. It was intense. And and so I had that context um before going into the into the classic race. So yeah, I kind of I went out very hot. Um, just gave myself space. I wasn't leading, so I didn't go out that crazy, but definitely like um I know my my general foot speed and and road speed uh is kind of one of my strengths. And we start off with like uh a mile of of road, not super steep, nothing like that, maybe a slight incline. And so really use that to my advantage to get out. Um and then again, like Taylor found me pretty quickly, and we just started kind of getting after it and like really trying to put ourselves up there just constantly throughout the race. And um we had so many people from from Team USA on on the sidelines um because we were the final event of world. So that also made it special. But the whole time, like we had people like all from Team USA saying, Oh, you're in this position, you're in this, oh, just a little bit more, a little bit more, and like you can get on the podium, and like with that, like that would just like gave me so much stoke, you know? Like I just wanted to keep pushing in. So I kept on going, kept on going until basically wheels fell off. Like uh I started like I it was a two-loop course, and um first loop got out really well. Um, second loop I knew was gonna be uh a really big challenge. And um I ended up like again, like I was constantly throwing out moves. Um I threw down a move at the start of that like second, second climb back up on the second loop, and around halfway, like about a mile or two, legs just started cramping, going out on me and stuff like that. But again, like I think I knew that was a risk from the start. Um I was running at my absolute limit. And I knew that was a risk of running at my limit. Um, but it was a risk that I was like willing to take, you know, because like how many more opportunities like this am I going to get, right? Like worlds only comes around every two years. Um, and how long am I going to be at this competition level? Who knows? And so you you have to take these opportunities as they come up. And I would rather like try to like race at my limit and push past my limits at this this world's event than leave something on the table, right? And so I like when the cramps came, they weren't, they weren't a surprise. Um, it was frustrating, of course. Like I I wish that like uh I had more in the legs, but started cramping up. And at that point, it's just like, all right, how do we manage this? How do we keep moving? Like my team still needs me. Um, I still want us to to place as best as possible. I still want to place as best as possible. So it was just sort of like, all right, grit through and and keep on, keep climbing and and keep pushing. And I won't lie, the the last mile of the of the race, you come down this big descent, and then the last mile is this flat, flat road. Um and really it should be a victory lap, right? Like everyone's down there, everyone's screaming, and that last mile, like really, I should be able to open up, I should be kicking, I should be closing. It felt like I was running through molasses, like absolute everything was just tight, and I just was barely moving, just like it felt like I had weights all over my body because like everything was was cramping up and um across the line, again, ecstatic, but like my whole body just shaking from just like muscle fatigue, muscle failure, everything's threatening to cramp on me, and I'm just like trying to stand up right. There's um we end up like taking a picture afterwards once everyone finishes. And I remember like while we were standing there, like take getting our pictures taken, I just felt like I was gonna fall over the whole time. Um, and so yeah, no, and I think like coming off of that, like feeling that way was actually really gratifying though, because yeah, I think like I proved to myself like I did I did send it like fully and I did really give it my all. Um and so yeah, I was I was super, super happy with that. Um, but of course, like yeah, I I want more. Um, and I definitely want to like I that experience was so enjoyable. Um, but I I want to go and to the next world and improve my time, and I think I am capable of doing so. Um and so yeah, very, very excited for for the future.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, dude, you're still so young. You have I mean 2027 will be here in the blink of an eye. So yeah, there's a lot of opportunities still, and uh yeah, I'm I'm excited to see the next the next title run, uh, more or less. I gotta ask you this, and this is interesting to me. I and I I really gotta give hats off to all the competitors, but like Philemon to go win that race, I was very not that I was surprised, it's just that I I've seen Philemon be beaten on and especially like in American races, I've seen Philemon be beaten. And so I don't know, I feel like for all of you guys, like in the front, like it's less than one percent of of like getting just that much better, like just having a little bit of the better day. And I think you're right there, dude. Like it's so close.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, definitely. And that's why I took the risk. That's why I took the gamble. Like, again, like I it's that sort of thing of like, okay, on a good day, I know I can be up there and I I know I can I can be competing with these guys. And to a certain extent, when you're you're competing at at a world event, you need to have that belief. You need to have that that understand, like that belief in yourself, or you're you're never gonna put yourself in it and you might get like left left in the dust, like even from the start, and you just won't be able to like navigate through the navigate through the field. So to a certain extent, it does require like this certain like leap of faith. And that's the fun thing about racing in general, anyways. Like, right? Like it's always this like this leap, like seeing like, okay, what what's gonna happen? And that's what makes it fun. That's what that's what makes it exciting. And um, particularly for like subultra running, I think that's a really cool thing. Um, is because like it is so it is so competitive and it is so much like okay, who's who's having it? Um who's feeling good today, and and all that. And so it makes for a very dynamic race, it makes for a very exciting race. You don't know what's gonna happen. Um, there's no like really runaway favorites, and um even then, if you have a favorite, they can get beat. Um, and so I think it makes it really exciting and fun.
SPEAKER_00:Do you feel like I mean, I my big takeaway after this, obviously I was not there. Obviously, like I was viewing this as a fan, but I just felt like you guys put some serious respect because the mountain classic is generally it a lot of times it's dominated by the African countries, right? Or Spain will be in the mix, Italy will be in the mix, but it's it's been a long time since the Americans on the Mountain Classic, at least on the men's side, um, get, you know, I feel like you guys really put some respect on on that side of the sport for for the Americans. And um But you guys just brought a squad this year. I mean, it was it was a good group of of gentlemen that went over there to compete, man.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were the fourth team in in the world, um, and just off the podium, just by by a few spots. Um, and I am like incredibly stoked with the team that we we sent and incredibly proud that I was I was able to be a part of it, you know? Like, and I think the the progress that the the team has been has been making has been really awesome, and especially to like show up on on the course that it was. Like it was a course that really rewarded um fast runners and uh it wasn't it definitely had technical bits to it. I wouldn't say it was like non-tech, like super non-technical. Um, but it was definitely like it rewarded speed, especially with that start being on roads and the end being on roads and like it not being like the craziest rocky thing in the world. Um, but to show like, okay, we have the fitness, we have the capability. Um I think that is really exciting. And I think another exciting thing with that is that um the US team, like there is still is like a lot of young guys on the team. And so we have this opportunity to continue to progress. Um and of course, the team was awesome and the team was really good. But another thing with that too is like you looked at if you look at like last year's US Mountain Champs, that was also a really deep field feeding in and like kind of creating this team. So like the US like subultra running space is really, really taking off. And um I'm really excited to see see the future of that and and to get to be a part of that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god, dude. And you're right in the mix right now. I mean, it and poised, you know, along with yourself, with Cam, you know, with Taylor, David, like there's you guys are all poised to really be the leaders of this in the next few years, which is and really right now. I mean, you guys are the guys right now. And as we continue to roll into 2026 and 2027, I mean, with that next build-up to South Africa and Cape Town, like, you know, you guys will be the standard until you know others, and it's kind of crazy too. Like, yeah, Christian competed um, you know, in the vertical, like, you know, there's a world where Christian's also on the team. There's a world where Danny Hurtz is on the team. Yeah, like the guys that didn't even make the team are absolute killers, too. So the depth is is nuts in uh in the sport. It's kind of crazy, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and again, like I think that depth really, really helps, right? Like that's like that's pushing us. Like that's pushing each and every one of us, like both the the people who made the team and like the people just off the team. Like, we're all pushing each other. We're constantly competing against each other at the big US races. Um, she even at like broken arrow last year in the 23K, it was like again, it was uh Taylor, Cam and I packed up like pushing each other like as as hard as we could. And um it has really made for for a cool, cool environment of like where we're all like pushing each other to to be our best. And I'm seeing what what Taylor did at the Golden Trail series. I'm seeing Cam make the Olympics, I'm seeing like Christian Allen throw down insane CIM marathon time. I'm seeing all these guys, and I'm like, gosh, that's what I need to compete with, that's what I need to be able to do and be doing. And I know I can do that, like they're doing it, and so can I. And so I I see all this stuff, and it just like inspires me, it pushes me to be a better athlete. And um, it's just so exciting that like this is this is where it's at. It also helps that all these guys are amazing and they're just super nice, and I I just enjoy them all. Um, so it's kind of cool where it's like, um, I feel like it can be said that that we're rivals, and like, of course, I want to beat all those guys. Like, I'd be lying if I if I wasn't saying or wasn't thinking that. And but at the same time, I want to see those guys succeed so much. Like, I want to see them do their best, and I want us to be like pushing each other to to be our best. And I know like they have like the same thinking about me and and how we talk, and they're rooting for me, I'm rooting for them. Um, and so yeah, it's just like this really cool environment that's like one, like we're all pushing each other, but also it's just in a very positive way, um, in a very sustainable way, which again makes me really excited for our potential as a team. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I mean, it's uh to that, and like to piggyback off of that, it's um I I think the best days are still ahead. I mean, and it's not even close. Like, I I think there is potential. What you get all of these guys on good days. Uh, I mean, dude, there's there's gold medals in the future at World. Yeah. And and I it's and in it's gonna be fun because I think the uh I think the African nations are starting to figure it out too on the trail side. I think the Americans are really starting to figure it out. And I think it's gonna create some like really interesting matchups and dynamics across a lot of the racing series over the next few years leading into worlds. Like I think there's gonna be uh I know Andy put up something, I think he was talking about cross it was like uh cross country worlds from like last week, and talking about like how those countries are starting to figure it out and Man, it's gonna be um the rivalries are gonna be nuts in the next few years. It's just gonna I yeah, we have the dream team coming. I I think it's it's it's gonna have and then dude, like on the women's side, like Lauren Gregory, Anna Gibson, like we don't even know how good Anna is at this point. Like, yeah, you know, also an Olympian, like it's yeah, it's how much talent is in the sport now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and every everyone on like the the women's like sub subultra teams, like from the vertical and and the classic, like talk about dream teams there as well. Like just the the depth um on on that um on the women's side as well is just amazing. And again, like uh I can't like speak fully because like of course I wasn't on the women's team, but just like we were like training, like we did the training camp together with the um the men's and women's team, and just like seeing them interact. And it seems very similar where it's like so like again, like I think it's so cool that we have a group of people so competitive with each other, but also so uplifting with each other and so supportive of each other, especially like coming from my background in like track and field and like college, like you know, like if you saw someone from a rival team or or like a rival place, like that you don't want them to succeed, you don't want them to succeed at all. Like they're like you you want to crush them, and that's it. You I hope that they get sick that day and like can't show up and like stuff like that, but like it's so cool that in our sport and with the the people competing right now, that's just not a thing, uh at least as I perceive, um, and um how I'm like talking to people and how people are talking to me. It's and I think that's going to be one of our secret weapons going forward, is that again, we're like it's the the quote iron truck urban's iron um to some extent, but also to some extent, like we're all helping each other. Like we're not just like beating each other down, um, wishing for each other's downfalls, like we're getting inspired by each other and like helping each other. Um, and I think that's gonna really pay off um in the in the long term.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it's the highest ideals of competition. It's it's the best aspects. And dude, everybody in the sport's so well, like I really you don't have a bad egg. Like everybody's really freaking cool. Uh and they're also kind and like you said, supportive. And yeah, it's it's gonna filter in over the next few years and like really like none of you guys are really like even mid-30s yet. Everybody's like really young. So yeah, it's uh it's gonna be fun to watch and and see. I want to pivot a little bit and talk to you about um, you know, I mean, obviously you're seasoned, dude. Like if it wasn't like you were a few seconds away from winning from being the US mountain running champion, but outside of that, dude, like you probably were the most dominant mountain classic. You are the most dominant mountain classic athlete in the country this year. Um you went you won every Cirque Series race you touched, you won Kendall, you were right there in Broken Arrow, um, which was a little bit longer of a race. You can't really call that a classic. Um, would you say these races and that level of competition adequately prepared you to go over and compete?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, definitely. Like I think it did. Like, I again, like I was constantly, and that was something I was thinking about while I was designing my schedule, right? Like, I wanted to like be pushing myself in these these short um subultra or like these classic style mountain races, especially with the Cirque series, just like super steep up, super steep down. Um, and um being very intentional about working on things like I feel have been gaps in in my abilities in the past. So, like in the past, I would say like things that I didn't consider myself super strong at was like technical um slash like descending. Like I was getting caught on descents. And this year, like I I really committed to like figuring that out and and working on that. And part of that was uh a little bit through training and and practicing that, but part of that was also through through racing and and doing hard, hard events and like really seeing what I can do if like I open up on the downhills and I was kind of getting to getting to a point where like I was putting down some like kind of insane, insane times where I was closing out races, at least for like for what I was like thought was possible for myself. Like there would be races where I'm closing in like uh like a sub 415 mile or like a 410 mile, um, which which is crazy to me, like to think about like still like like now for me to like even look at that like result and like to finish like when I finish, I'd be like, whoa, that was nuts. Like just to be able to do that. And um, that gave me so much confidence going going into worlds. Like, okay, I I know that I if it things get more technical than I expected, I I'm gonna be okay. I know I can climb with the best, I know I can descend with the best, I know I have flat foot speed. It got to the point where the biggest thing I was actually nervous about before worlds was uh a bunch of people were getting stung by bees and wasps, and I'm mildly allergic. And so that was the biggest thing I was worried about.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, oh, what if I get stung? That's the one thing I've been prepared for.
SPEAKER_01:Um and so like all leading up, like I I really feel like that the season was um good for for preparing me um for four worlds. I I love it.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. It's all right, so you kind of addressed like some of the things like it was really interesting to me to see this progression because I I got to meet 2024 you and also got to hang out with 2025 you and just seeing this progression into this like dude, you went from being really, really good to like world class good. And it was just really cool to see you put the pieces together and just like have it figured out. Um can you talk a little bit about like figuring out the downhill stuff? I know you kind of just went into it a little bit, but maybe emphasize on that as well as your training. Like it was like it you're just so consistent on like I follow your Strava and your training is so consistent. You're putting in you know nice solid blocks of just not sective workouts, but like just really just consistent training and time on the bike. Like your base builds are insane. Um, maybe talk about some of the things that you filled the gaps with and started to figure it out. And the only reason I asked this too is because I just had Grayson Murphy on yesterday, and she's like the Mountain Classic goat, right? On the field side. And I asked her to elaborate, like, what did you figure out about the Mountain Classic that you just have, you know, that you just became almost unbeatable in? Like, dude, this this season I watched you at Targee like dismantle the entire field. Uh, I mean, a fresh Joe Damore, a fresh Jackson. Uh and I saw you before, and you're like, dude, I'm I'm pooped. I'm pretty tired. Like, especially from driving, going from Alta back to Colorado, then back out to Targee. That's all that's a really tough two weeks. So maybe elaborate on that and how you were able to uh put that all together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's been it's been a process like figuring things out. Like the the downhill uh has been like this element that I've I really had to kind of like really tinker and try to figure out. And as a coach, like this is something I've like I've always struggled with. Like athletes come to me and they'll be like, oh, I'm not very good at downhills. Um, and for the longest time, I'm like, I don't I don't know how to coach that, right? Like that that's not in a training book, like that's not like not this physiological thing, right? Um, it's not um something like you can do necessarily like this super structured, like VO2 max downhill, whatever um um thing. And so it took me a while to kind of figure out how I I want to approach it. And basically what I ended up doing is kind of thinking about it as like again through the lens of a coach and through the lens of like training and like okay, what are the what are the limiters? And what are how do I train those limiters? How do I improve those limiters? So on a downhill, like aerobic isn't the limiter, and that's what most of training theory focuses on. So God tossed that out the window. That doesn't really matter. Um, other things that that matter are like, okay, eccentric contractions. I was already training eccentric contractions, I was already doing big vert runs and and all that sort of stuff. So I I kind of have that down. I can keep working on that, but like that's not necessarily this big limiter. Um, next thing I started thinking about was like, okay, well, maybe it's like this neuromuscular thing. Maybe it's a form thing. Like maybe I just need to unlock, unlock this form thing. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. That's something I can work on. Another thing that occurred to me is like, okay, maybe it's this, maybe this is a fear thing. Like, am I just not confident to run on the downhills, especially talking to some of my athletes that had it built up in their heads a little bit more? Whereas, like, okay, I'm seeing a fear response here. And it's like, okay, so I started looking at like, okay, how do you work through phobias? How do you start working through like uh a fear response? And how do you how do you get past that? And so um, especially with the fear response thing, uh, like a big thing is just like um exposure, like exposure therapy and just like repeating things and stuff like that. But the key thing with that is like if you do have too big of an exposure, you're going to freak out and you're going to have like an opposite effect. Now you can't do anything. So it's about finding that happy threshold, that happy medium of like, okay, this is putting me on edge, but I can handle this. Like, I'm I'm a little bit out of my comfort zone, but not completely out of my depth. Um, and so yeah, I started looking into doing that. Like, so I would go and I'd run repeats of like technical trails that made me uncomfortable. I didn't love them, but I didn't, I wasn't hitting the full-on panic button. And so I started, I started doing those and I would just repeat them. They're super boring. But that was kind of the point, right? I made the scary boring because I would just do like laps of this one like technical section, and I'd do it easy. I would do it as like one of my easy runs where like I don't really care about speed, I don't really care. Like, I'm just trying to get like aerobic time on feet. And so I just repeat technical sections. Um, and I'd learn the movements, I would try different form techniques. Um, one of the form techniques that ended up really being helpful for me, this actually came from my uh coach David Roach, um, was like run like a monster truck. Um, and basically what that was like was like worry less about picking the perfect line and just like steamroll things. And as long as your shoes have good grip and like this will be different in um different trail areas. Like, for instance, like if you're in the if you're in the northeast, rocks will be a lot more slick, so don't trust those. But if you're out west, rocks actually are probably one of the better traction surfaces because everything else is kind of like this like sandy, like loose stuff that you can slide out on. So target the rocks. Um, but again, like I was practicing on different types of trails and I was learning how the trails worked and um figuring out where to where to place my foot and um all those things. And it was kind of this this repetition thing. So my body, one, learned the form. Um, and two, like I just I just exposed myself to it and then match that up with doing races um and where I got to practice those things even further. Like the Cirque series is actually, I think, a great um training grounds for this because their races have such a variety of terrains, like they have really technical sections that are really going to push you, but they don't last the entire race. So then you'll get like a more less technical uh section where okay, now you're just practicing opening it up. Um, and so that was one area where like I really got to practice with races. Um, and that's part of the reason why I race so much in general. Like I think I probably race more than your average um athlete, because like I'm also using those races as like training stimuli um and and utilizing that. So I'd say that's how I I approach the downhills and and training, training that element and really figuring that out. Um for the uphills and stuff, that's just that's aerobic. Like that's that's aerobic power, that's uh like taking in your lactate threshold and and and all that sort of stuff. And so to train for that, um, it's just like you said, like it's consistency. It's uh I don't think I probably have like the sexiest like straba out there. Um the big thing that I'm trying to do is I'm just like trying to stack week after week after week. And what that ends up looking like is like a lot of threshold work on the track where I'm I'm working on that foot speed. I'm just like getting my body really good at shoveling lactate and and all that good stuff. Um and then I'm doing a lot of volume on the bike so I don't break down mechanically. Um, and I think that has really worked well for me in terms of keeping me healthy while also letting my aerobic system really progress. Um and that consistency has like really helped me out like on the climb. So I think like tackling those two things has has really been huge. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:I I gotta ask you this as far as peaking goes, did you how how were you able to do that in your blocks? Like, did you I would assume you peaked for Sunopee, and then I would assume you peaked for worlds? Is that how you did it? And then everything else was just kind of a workout for you? How did you because you do you did race a lot of races this year? Like, how did you put all that together?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so uh I would say like yes, I was peaking for for Sunopee, and I was I was peaking um for worlds to to a certain extent, but a lot of it was still just like coming off of coming off of the summer. Um, but I guess to back it up, like before Sunopee, I was also putting in um pretty big aerobic volume. Um I was doing a lot more 20-mile long runs. Again, I I had added in the bikes, so I was getting like extra volume there. So we're talking like stacking multiple, like um, I don't know, like right around like 15-hour training weeks, sometimes getting up into like the 18-hour range, like at the highest high. Um and so like stacking like these really big long weeks, but again, like even though that sounds like a lot, I was only doing like I don't know, 50 to 60 miles per week because so much of it was on the bike. Um, and so I built up this giant aerobic base over the winter and and spring. Um, then tapered off a little bit in terms of volume, going into Senepe, race centipede. Um and then over the summer, it was just kind of, yeah, the the races themselves did serve like workouts. Uh I would taper for them uh to a certain extent, um, definitely going into them a little bit easier. Um and then I would still run them pretty hard. Like I I'm not gonna say like I was doing those as cakewalks, like I'm not that impressive of an athlete. Like, oh my god. That wasn't me jogging, like that, like I was going really hard with those, but like it just required a little tweak of training. So like instead of um yeah, so I'd have to back up running, back off running mileage that week, a little bit of volume. Um, a lot of times at the races, I would try to do a little bit of extra long cooldowns if I was feeling good just to get like the long run stimulus in. And then the the following day after the race, I do these big long bites. Um and I do them super easy because mechanically I'm beat up, but on the bike, it's so concentric that like that pound, like I'm not dealing with that pounding, so I can fit a little bit more aerobic work. Um, and so I just get on the bike, pedal around super easy. Um and that's kind of that's kind of how I balanced it. So it wasn't like these big tapers for those ones. And so I was training, I was training through those. Um, but I think really because of the biking and using that strategically and taking rest days, like I would take um complete rest days, extra rest days here and there if I ever was feeling extra fatigue. I think I was just able to find a balance to be able to like, okay, really perform well at these races um and maintain fitness.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I would say, dude, like you've got the blueprint. Like it's it's it's so obvious that like it's you you got it. So you don't have to change anything for really 25 days, which is kind of nice when you got the system down. I'm a big system guy. Like once the system's kind of in place, like uh it's nice because then you can just like you're doing now, you're just building and building, building, you have your consistency and you're inactive. Do you do a lot of like extra stuff? Like, do you ever do I was just talking to Michelino about this yesterday, and and uh because there's a lot of people that like you see this on social media now where everybody's all into the extra stuff, the sauna, the cold plunge, the breath work, there's this and that. Do you subscribe to any of that stuff? Like, are you like particularly like resolute or are you like how how do you play that game?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so um yes and no.
SPEAKER_01:Um I I like to joke that like my favorite recovery tool is peanut butter. Like if I just like am feeling a little beat up, just have a little like extra scoop of peanut butter and like here and there. Because I do feel like fueling is one of like the biggest things is just like making sure you're getting enough. But like in terms of like all like small stuff, like um not really, like I'm I'm not really into the sauna. Um in my my perspective is I'd rather get more time in on the bike than than the sauna. But again, like I don't really train or I'm not really targeting hot races. Part of my strategy is I just don't target doing hot races because I just don't enjoy it. So I'm I'm not really doing that. Um and so I I think a big thing for me too is like the enjoyment side of things. Like I train, like I do this training partially because it works, but also partially because I just really enjoy it. Like I I love the training that I do. I'm excited to get out the door. I love the biking, I love the running. Like all these things are are fun to me. So they're like it's hard training, but like I enjoy it all. Like, so it's easy for me to get out the door. The little stuff, it's uh it's a bit harder for me to do. Like, I'm not like sitting here like, yeah, can't wait to sauna. Sick. Like and so I the little things aren't as like exciting for me or or as like uh attractive to me. That doesn't mean I don't think they can like be beneficial or like uh or I don't think that people like shouldn't be doing them or or anything like that. It's just for me, it isn't something I'm really excited about. One of the things that I do find really important and and do really prioritize is um like some strength work. So it's pretty minimal dose. Like I'm not doing any crazy crazy routines and I'm I'm not lifting anything heavy but like I'm doing some uh like I'm doing some uh squats, RDLs, um I do a lot of prehab work um in terms of hip and glute activation, taking care of my uh uh lower legs, calves, and solia. So I'm targeting all those things. Um and small plug here, but if anyone wants to learn what those are, like you can find them on my website, like um hello torunner.com. Yeah, go for it. Um but I have all my routines online. But basically it's just like a lot of stuff where it's just injury prevention through strength work and I I really prioritize that. But smaller things where I see them more as like marginal gains. Um I don't I don't invest a lot of uh a lot of time into that.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Gotcha. Dude hips it's so interesting. I have had I have I have this talk with everybody. I'm like a big hip guy. Just because I feel like hip strength is so like underrated and so important. What are you doing for the hips?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so um the hips are a tricky one like especially hip flexor. So uh I do some um kind of like knee drive things either with a band or with a uh with a weight um doing like dead bugs and stuff that's more activation um but uh I'll do a little like stuff like that. So nothing crazy again just trying to activate the area trying to get them a little bit stronger. The hip ones are kind of tricky. So I have a buddy who's um uh a PT and like this is something we've been talking about for a long time like what is a good hip exercise that you can get in with minimal equipment um and like he just texted me like the like I think it was two days ago he's like I've I found one and it's like him doing like a glute bridge and like lifting his leg and like so these are the things I talk about with my friends. It's important yeah it's super important. Like I think I think about with like the hip and like the glute activation like I think that's so important. Like and I remember when like I was in in college and I was coming off of an injury and I was told like for the umpteenth time that I wasn't recruiting my glutes and I was given the exact same set of exercises from the PT that I was always given and I'm like why am I not just doing this all the time and like once I realized that I was like yeah I should just be doing this all the time and so I started doing that. I have my athletes doing that. Again it's like this small little thing that you can do and like if like PTs are always on it I feel like we should probably be on it too. And so yeah that's that's one of the things I do.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean dude it's like my biggest fear is a torn labrum. Not that it like happens a ton in runners like technically we all have like kind of small tears in our labrums.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah but that said still still a fear well any injury is a fear right and like that can get in the way of training that can get in the way of like enjoying the process right like so we want to do like these these little things to to protect ourselves from that and um and so I I do subscribe to like taking like doing like the strength worse just since there is so much evidence behind it. It's just other things where I'm just like I don't know if I'm gonna make time for it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah well that's the thing you don't really know like that's the thing like yeah there's some science out there with the sauna but it's like I don't know it's the hemoglobin like I don't know there's a lot to it but it's also like that type of it can also dehydrate the shit out of you too which I don't think people like pay attention with which also leads to bigger issues of running down the line. So yeah there's it's interesting. Let's talk 2026. I know you're you're on deck for Broken Arrow 23K um what else is on the schedule? Where am I gonna see you this summer?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so I think you asked a a really good question like at the at the start of the podcast where it's like what's next and and that's what like something I was thinking so like it's actually taken me a really long time to come out with like my 2026 schedule and come up with what I want to be doing because it's like okay I I want to push myself and what how do I level up? How how what is the next chapter like what I'm doing right now is really working but like how do we progress it? How do how do we move it forward? And what new experiences can um improve things. So uh things that I'm looking at um this one technically isn't race but I'm super excited for it. I'm gonna do be doing my first pacing job at Black Canyon. So I'm super stoked about that. Like I get to live out my dream of being a domestique. And like I'm I'm super stoked for that and get to learn about um being uh being an ultra pacer and like what what you can be doing for for another another athlete and and kind of how to help them through those things. So super stoked for that um then I'm gonna be doing the Atlanta half marathon which is the US um USATF half marathon road champs um so gonna be doing a bit of a speed block for that um I'm also targeting Big Alta and Gorge um again starting off spring with some races I've never done before and uh sounds like those uh will be competitive hopefully um and so trying trying to get out to those um also targeting doing my first Boston marathon um all right all right throwing a bit of a curveball but uh really excited for that one um I have a lot of athletes who that's their main goal um and so just to be able to understand what it's like to to be uh at the Boston learn all the logistics and also get to push myself on on the Boston course I think will be really exciting um uh other things I am looking at doing Sunope got do the US mountain champs um and so super excited to to see how much funding they've gotten um and how much like has been invested um in the US Mountain Champs um and of course I'll be trying to shoot for the uh WMRA um like team um and making the US team um for that for that event in the in the fall other bit of a curvefall this year I do think I'm gonna be well I'm signed up for it so I better be committed to doing it I'm doing the speedgoat 50k nice um I love that area of of mountains and uh one of the things that I feel like is is a weak point for for me um and again like I'm constantly thinking through like what are my weak points how do I improve that is um muscular endurance um I've I feel like I've figured out the the one hour events um and those classic races like we were talking about like I I feel like I've really figured those out um and with this being a year where there is no world world mountain champs uh I have an opportunity to experiment and I don't have to be locked in on those one hour events. So I'm gonna be taking going to speed goat trying to learn about um muscular endurance and five to six hour event have fun there. Yeah exactly it's going to be an experience and we will see how that goes uh but again I'm trying to learn I'm trying to um again take take care of things that um I haven't quite mastered yet and and things that I still need to learn about um after after speed go um of course there's WMRA um and then also big big target is CIM in December going after that Olympic trials qualifier uh I feel like gotta target that. Again we talked about Christian and um I've talked about in previous podcasts where I feel like he keeps setting the bar for what sub ultra speed is and I'm I'm not close to him but I have to keep on trying to respond as close as I can uh because again that's that's the competition level that's the he's setting the bar and I need to do my best to to try to compete with that and and try to keep up with that. Outside of that I'm sure I'm gonna throw in a lot more races. Those are just like the the for shirts that I'm kind of like thinking about right now. Of course I'm gonna be coming back to search series events and um all that and fitting in uh as much as I can. So yeah I think I think it's gonna be be a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00:Dude what a season I am so looking forward to this. I really I'm I'm so happy you chose Speed Goat too because I think that's a it's a really I think this is a good year for you especially coming off the year that you had like you said to experiment do new things try new things find success in different things because I mean dude I don't know about you but like I'm confident for you. So I can't imagine what your confidence level is. That's probably I would be so confident coming off that season. And it's also a really good opportunity for you to continue to build your name for people to this is something I've been talking about on the podcast a lot as far as from the media side. How do we continue to turn athletes like yourself and others into stars so people know who you are. So the audience knows who you are so brands know who you are. And I think things like Gorge, things like the big Alta, speed go, a lot of these particular events will have more eyeballs on them. And I think it's really good for your star power and your brand as an athlete as you know for more people to get to learn who you are.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah no I think I think that's super cool. And like I I do have a lot of confidence going in this another thing though that I am partially thinking about is like yeah getting out of my comfort zone and getting my butt kicked a little bit I think that's also beneficial. This is a good year to get my butt kicked and like try try some try some hard things and and experiment with that and like put myself out there again like that's all part of the process and and like a part of the fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I'm very curious to see if you can nail speak out the first time. The reason is is because like some people do and some people don't and it's like a very mixed bag. So yeah it's pretty cool. I don't know it's uh it's the unknown well that's the thing in a one hour race you are are you already kind of know like that comes a lot of that comes down to fitness there is some skill to it but I think a lot of it comes down to fitness and you know that's kind of a Rubik's cube that you've had you've had figured out so there's not as many unknowns. It's either you win the race or you lose the race. Whereas with some of these longer things there's a lot of things that like yeah you haven't really tried out because a marathon I mean you're running under what to up under 230 in the marathon. That's not a very long race you know like when it I mean obviously it's hard but like these five hour events six hour potentially six hour events I'd say five probably five a little higher than five for you probably for speaker I think it's this course record there. I think it is like the course record's either 504 or 505 between five and six right so like probably low under 530 somewhere in that range I'd guess so yeah I mean there's a lot of cool things to learn and figure out about yourself and plus the nutrition side like that's different you know yeah right like hydration I don't know um I mean I objectively like know from like coaching like athletes and and understanding that but like again it's it's it's a completely different experience for me.
SPEAKER_01:And so yeah really excited to to like up like approach that and um and really learn from that experience.
SPEAKER_00:It's exciting very exciting. All right last topic I want to get to is uh free agency and kind of where you're at with that right now um I've told you this a million times as as your as your friend I I feel like I I tell you this every time I see you it's I think it's it's criminal that like you do not have a sponsor yet. I feel like you are criminally underrated as an athlete. I know you're going through this right now trying to figure out the sponsorship trying to navigate that world. Maybe talk about that a little bit about your free agency, where you're at with that and uh yeah we'll talk about that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah uh sponsorship stuff has been tricky this year if if I'm being honest. Like I think I I went like I was coming off of this year um especially after Sunpee and and that performance that I had there I was very proud of that. And uh after getting like second second in the US and only being off of first by like a handful of seconds I was like oh I'm I'm I'm a shoe in and like even like looking at the at the top 10 at the US Mountain Champs like I was one of the few people who wasn't wasn't sponsored and I was second and like like that close to first I'm like oh well like I'm I'm at that caliber like it's time it's it's gonna happen. And like this has been something I've been thinking about since like I I started doing the sport. And I have learned this year that it's not that simple. Like I think like I thought it was this simple thing especially like coming off of like my background as like a D1 athlete and knowing people who've gotten track and road sponsorships where it's like okay if you make a a US world team you're shooing. Like if you're an all-American like all these things it's like okay that's that's sponsorship material. There's questions on how much you're gonna get and and stuff like that, but you are sponsorship material. And so I was like okay easy. But then I started figuring out oh man the process is complicated. So much of it falls on the on the athlete there are starting to be some agents in the space but um a lot of it does fall on the athlete to to be reaching out to companies to be finding contacts to be reaching out to the agents and and so much of that. And I I was trying my best to to reach out to people and people weren't biting and and and that's like something else that I learned is like timing is a big thing. And I think like a few years ago um we saw like a lot of brands investing a lot especially in the subultra space um and and sponsoring a lot of people and like a lot of new athletes is another key there. They're sponsoring a lot of up and coming athletes and stuff like that. And I wasn't quite quite in on their radar at that point. So I kind of missed the boat. And now that I'm at that point a lot of people are telling me okay rosters are full we we we don't have have the budget right now. It's like any job right like you can be super qualified for a job but if like people aren't taking the aren't accepting positions it's like well that that that's tough. And so something that I've really been trying to work on is like seeking validation through the sponsorship. Because I think especially like when I first started out like that's what I needed in order to be validated. I wanted to be a professional like a professional trail runner. I want to be I wanted to have that contract and that was going to be the thing that said hey I've made it um and this year has been has been weird right like I had the dream year I I had I I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish I I did the things and I still didn't get that and so I think like it has been a struggle right like it has been a struggle being like okay like am I good enough and stuff like that. And that's that that is like a thing it's like these brands are are betting on these other athletes. They're not betting on me. And that's kind of a that's kind of a weird position to be in. And so I think I've had to do a lot of work to say be more internally motivated and more internally validated of like you know what no I am proud of my season. I'm proud of what I accomplish I know I can compete with these all all these athletes who are sponsored and if I show up to a race with like anyone who's sponsored I I don't care. I'm going to compete with you and I know about my capabilities and that's something that I've had to work on and um honestly I'm I'm really like happy that I have gotten that opportunity and like I've been able to do that. That's not to say that I don't want to be sponsored um there's a lot of like of course like with anything there's pros and cons of being sponsored like you know like um a sponsorship would be super helpful from a travel standpoint. Like I I can't be doing these big races out in Europe because I just can't afford to fly myself out to Europe all the time. And like I just can't afford that. And I can't afford to be uh at every single race like a race that's super exciting this year that I'm just not gonna have the travel budget to get out to um is the the beast at like Big Creek like right like that's the skyrunning series. That's so fun. But I just I I can't budget it in. And that's actually why I chose Speed Goat instead was because I can drive to speed goat and I can camp out at speed goat and like so these are the decisions I have to make as as an unsponsored athlete. So there is a limitation there. And um of course like finances are a thing and um it would be nice to be like making making some money money on um on the side here. And another thing uh again that validation is kind of nice that is a pro o of having a sponsor like you have a team that believes in you you have other teammates on your brand who believe in you and and all that stuff but there's also cons to sponsorships right like um you get less flexibility in the races you get to pick. Your sponsors are saying like I want you going to this race and I want you going to that um and so I get to set my schedule I get to pick whatever I want. Of course I'm limited by travel but outside of that I get to pick whatever event I want to do I'm gonna be doing um there's also like expectations with having a sponsor and I'm really thankful of that of like well no one's breathing down my neck about how I how I perform. Like it is completely up to me and um I'm completely like self-motivated with that. And so I'm thankful of that. Also thankful that I don't have to run in any bad gear. Like I don't have to be in any bad shoes. If you see me in like a product or something chances are I like it because I'm I'm picking it out and buying it with my own money um and I'm not using something I don't believe in. So that's another benefit uh that at least I tell myself I get to do um again there's a lot of great products from from all these all these companies and I know a lot of uh pro pro athletes like really like believe in their product. So that one last one was more of a joke. But oh I'm sorry. Yeah I I think those those those are the big things. So it's just like balancing balancing that like validation versus internal validation thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah no I do know I think you're in such a good headspace. One of the things I was going to say I think you hit on something really important there. It's like just from the support level, like every time I've seen you at a race, you're usually like camping, dude. And it's like, how much nicer would it be to be able to stay in an Airbnb or a hotel and get a shower the day before like the morning of the race? I'm not saying I'm not saying you don't shower. I don't know. But I I mean I've seen you like uh you know, I think I saw you the morning before Targi. Uh I think we were just both finishing our our warm-up runs. Um and I actually you were I think you were coming out of the canyon from uh camping. And yeah, I mean, not that camping's not great, but like for an athlete of your level, it would be a heck of a lot nicer to be, you know, cooking a nice dinner in an Airbnb or a hotel and just chilling the night before a race. And it it just it takes a it's just a little bit of a help to get you uh a little more ready for the event that you're about to do. And then you still win anyway, which is great, but like still I I think those things help a lot and and go the extra distance. And you know, there's a lot of perks too with the teams, you know. Um like Adidas and some of the Ahoka and some of the other brands, like dude, like some of the things they're doing in Shamani for like these UTMB weeks are nuts. Like you get like a team house, team physio, they're taking photos for you. It's kind of wild. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I I think you're in a good you're in a good head headspace for it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, there's definitely nice things, and like, yeah, I I am dirt bagging it at all the races. I'm not gonna lie, I kind of like it. Like it is kind of fun where like I love camping.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's fun. It's also kind of fun to show up at races and be like, all right, I camped the night before, and I'm I'm still gonna like show up and I'm gonna compete. And I I think that's part of the fun, and like feels very trail runner-esque, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Like I feel like I'm I'm living the living like the ideal.
SPEAKER_01:Um and so like again, I I'm having fun with it. Of course, like more help would would would be awesome to to do more things, do bigger things. Um but yeah, no, so again, like it's that balance of like it would be nice, but I'm also happy where I am. Um and I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing, and I'm going to like keep racing, I'm gonna keep showing up, I'm gonna keep betting on myself, and like with or without a sponsor, that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna compete at the highest level uh that I possibly can.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. I love it. I think it's a good place to put a pin in it for the next one. Macy Kopey, I'm such a fan, dude. I I can't wait to see what you do this summer. Obviously, we'll talk before then. Um thank you so much for coming on, and uh I I think this was a good good discussion. Damn proud of this one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm super stoked. Thank you so much for having me on. Always always a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:Uh microphone's always yours, man. Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome, awesome.
SPEAKER_00:What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a great episode. Always want to thank Mason so much for coming on for a chat. I mean, his insights in training and racing, um, and just you know, being able to, he's just so relatable, you know. I mean, he's going through his own own stuff trying to figure it out for his own racing. Um, and he just makes the sport so relatable and approachable. So want to thank him so much for being uh able to do that. Um, I mean, also on the performance side, it's just absolutely crazy. Like some of the rate, like the course record that he dropped at Cirque Grantargy to me was just absolutely bananas. Uh, dude is a monster. Um, one quick note Mason is still a free agent. I know I'm as baffled as you are about that. So let's let's uh let's get him off the free agency list and uh find him a find him a brand. Um, if you are an athlete manager or uh any any person with brand representation that is interested in getting in contact with Mason, please do so. You can find him on his Instagram, and that's gonna be linked in the show notes, or you can reach out to him and contact him uh through his coaching business. That's gonna be at hello to running, and that'll be uh linked in the show notes as well. So you can shoot him an email there. Um yeah, all good stuff there. Um like I said, I think uh Mason would just be a great addition to any mountain running team out there. Um dude's 14th in the world in the mountain classic. That's a talent right there. Um yeah. So if you guys also enjoyed this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcasts. Uh, I would greatly appreciate that. That's how we can continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes. And uh yeah, guys, we've got some great interviews dropping, all kinds of fun stuff. We've got one dropping uh later on this week with none other than soon-to-be Olympian Mr. Cam Smith. Um, all kinds of fun stuff. So thanks for tuning in. I really appreciate your support, and thanks so much.
