#159 - Travis Macy, Host of Skimo Gold

You press play for stoke, but stay for substance. We sit down with legendary endurance athlete and coach Travis Macy to unpack ski mountaineering’s Olympic debut, the rise of Skimo Gold as “SportsCenter for Skimo,” and how smart storytelling can turn niche talents into household names. From the first shotgun blast at Leadville to adventure racing across continents, Travis connects the dots between joyful beginnings and professional systems that actually grow a sport.

We dig into the sprint and mixed relay—how three minutes of mayhem can hinge on a flawless skin rip—and why Team USA’s duo of Cam Smith and Anna Gibson has real medal potential. Travis explains the physiology behind these formats, why training low builds the power you can’t access at 9,000 feet, and what a modern program looks like when you balance sleep-high, train-low blocks with precise transition practice and downhill control under redline fatigue. If you’ve ever wondered how to watch schemo like an insider, start by watching hands and feet.

The conversation also tackles the big question: can schemo scale without losing its soul? We weigh the broadcast-ready sprint against the long, romantic epics of Pierramenta, and the absence of vertical and individual at the Games. Along the way, we spotlight youth pipelines in the U.S., how European systems give rivals a head start, and why star building—done with authenticity—creates the next wave of fans and athletes. Travis even opens up about auditioning for Olympic commentary and what it takes to make technical sport coverage sing.

If you enjoyed this deep dive, follow Skimo Gold and the Travis Macy Show, share this episode with a friend who loves mountain sport, and leave a quick rating or review. Your support helps more people discover the athletes, stories, and ideas reshaping ski mountaineering and short trail.

Follow Travis on IG - @travismacy

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I am so excited to welcome Travis Macy to the show, legendary endurance athlete in the space. Travis was kind enough to come on the show and talk a lot about his project, which is the Schemo Gold Podcast. I'm sure many of you are familiar with it, especially as the legendary sport of ski mountaineering has started to uh pick up steam with its uh bid into the Olympics this year and just a few weeks away. Travis was kind enough to come on the show and talk all about the Olympics, talk about some of the major players. We got a lot into the conversation around Cam and Ana. Um we talked about Travis himself, his background. Um he's also the host of the Travis Macy show. Um, and just just kind of uh rambled on about the sport. It was a really great conversation, uh, good opportunity to talk about Schemo and kind of its place in the world right now uh with the Olympics and where trailrunning could potentially be in the next uh probably few decades, as uh you know, as early as the next, I guess 2030s they're looking at uh trail running to enter the Olympics and at least to have a conversation around it, which is interesting in its own right. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. Big fan of Travis's, super kind human, and uh just a good dude. And uh yeah, definitely gotta get throw some supports behind the uh schemo gold podcast. So without further ado, Travis Macy.

Travis On Intros, Fun, And Stoke

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Ladies and gentlemen, we James, it's going great. I am honored to be here. I've been listening to your show. My one of well, there's many favorite parts, but one of my favorite parts is right at the start, James. The this great intro. It's time. And just like it, uh, I was thinking about it like it kind of hits me at the very sweet spot of like just a little bit of kind of you know, playfulness or cheesiness, but also just like bringing the stoke, you know. And and I think it's um it's kind of what we went for in the in the intro of the schemo gold podcast. Like, you know, talking about schemo, talking about trail running. Of course, many of the things are serious, but it's also like it's fun, you know, these are things that people are doing outside of the work and the other obligations. And in some ways, it's you know, it's kind of an escape from the obligations of life. And like, let's just have fun. So, like when I push play, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm having fun. Like, I wanna I wanna go running. I'm excited to hear these guys talking about whatever they're talking about. So, anyway, uh good work, and I'm I'm just I'm pumped to be here, dude.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I appreciate the compliment so much. I have to be honest with you. My my agent messaged me the other day. He's like, your intro's too long. He's like, I have to fast forward through it. I'm like, get ready, stay, it's never going anywhere, so you better get used to it, buddy. Um, yeah, I uh I gotta hand the compliment forward likewise. Uh, dude, you're like it's like 80s inspired kind of techno beat that you've got for Schemo Gold. I love that. I and I it's funny, I had a note to actually bring that up to you earlier. Um, yeah, whatever however you created that, I think you did an amazing job.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

So well, it was produced by Palm Tree Podco, the the podcast production company, and they do a good job. And I I don't know where they found it, but they sent me the draft, and I was like, hell yeah, we're doing this. Oh, dude.

Travis’s Endurance Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah, they did a great job. Phenomenal. And good, good taste, good selection there. Um, all right, let's get into I'm gonna talk about you and get into your background and talk about Schemo Gold, get that out into the world. Um, so maybe first and foremost, give me, I know you've done so much in the endurance space, but maybe give me like the give me like the 10-minute elevator fit pitch. Talk about what you've been up to now and talking about uh just kind of your background in general.

From Racing To Coaching And Media

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I'll start at the start and I'll try to make the cliff notes uh brief, but um, you know, I I I got into trail running in in 1988. I was five years old, and my dad was doing the Leadville 100 run, and and I just remember a visceral sense of being there at 6 in Harrison in Leadville, you know, at 4 a.m. in the cold, and you got this old cowboy, Ken Kluber, and he's you know saying things like, You're better than you think you are, you can do more than you think you can. And he's and he's shooting off a shotgun. And like that stuff has always uh stuck with me. It's always been real, it's always been powerful, and it's an energy that you know has kind of guided my life in in many ways. You know, here I am 43 years old, and I'm still pumped about this this same stuff. So, you know, um growing up got to see my dad doing Leadville and Badwater and you know the snowshoe races and marathon desab and that kind of stuff. Uh, and then in in the 90s, he got into the eco challenge races, you know, the um expedition adventure races that were on USA Network, Discovery Channel, MTV, etc. And um I was a teenager at the time, so I was doing, you know, the normal sports and starting to get into tracking cross-country. But I was I was just intrigued by by the adventure of uh you know these things that were happening in faraway places and kind of knew that uh I would probably want to do those uh at some point sooner rather than later. And, you know, it kind of ended up being sooner, I guess. Uh, you know, in in college I ran um ran with the Buffaloes, as it were, for a couple of years there um at CU. And I was kind of, you know, I was trying to survive. I was with uh Dathan Ritzenhein and the Torres brothers and you know, some of these uh, you know, incredible um future uh Olympians and record holders. And, you know, I was literally just trying to survive, running way too much, not taking care of myself, didn't know anything about energy uh, you know, uh nutrition or recovery or anything else. Uh and and you know, I think I made a good choice that two years of that was was enough for me. Uh then I switched to the CU Tri-Team my junior year and had had fun uh with that. And then my senior year kind of got into the uh the longer stuff, starting to um do these long adventure races domestically and internationally, um beginning to explore some some ultra running as as well. Um and then that brought us to, you know, I finished college in in 2005 and sort of for the next um 10 or 12 years, in addition to uh being a high school teacher for a number of years, I was also uh competing, you know, at a at a very high level, um, you know, with sponsorships and travel budget and and some monthly stipends and and all that kind of stuff, and got to go around the all around the world, do some big races and adventure racing, ultrarunning, trail running, vertical Ks, um, a lot of mountain bike racing. And um, you know, is uh it was, and I guess, you know, to some extent still is uh a great um a great part of my life. Um, you know, about 10 years ago I shifted away from high school teaching uh and and into coaching is uh my primary job, um coaching adult endurance athletes in uh in running, that's ultra and trail running, but also in in multi-sport in terms of uh adventure racing and schemo and uh many athletes who just do a number of individual sports throughout the year. Um and then in addition to that, I've gotten uh, you know, kind of like you, uh the you know, the sort of media or production side of things. Like when I hear the word content creator, it's uh it it seems weird to me because I'm you know in this realm, like, you know, I'm kind of an old guy and I don't do video editing, like I don't know much about social media, I don't look at social media, but in in terms of uh podcasts, I do a Travis Macy show, I do Schemo Gold that we started about a year ago. So that's you know a lot of content, as it were. Um, and I've also done, you know, quite a bit of sort of traditional long form content uh in terms of um to uh publish nonfiction books and and also uh a fiction uh novella. So um, you know, kind of lots lots of different things. Um, you know, I I I have ADHD, which can be a challenge, but is also I think a strength in terms of energy and dynamism and you know, enjoying many things at once uh with a lot of uh novelty. Um and I also you know, you know, I spend a ton of time as as a dad. Uh my kids are 13 and 15 and they play sports. And we live in Salida, Colorado, which is a small rural town, which means the away games are usually at least two hours away. So I spend a lot of time driving to uh teenage sports games, and that gives me time to listen to things like the Steep Stuff podcast.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

I appreciate that. Man, I have so many questions for you. First and foremost, um I guess we'll start off on you, kind of said you're you know, a content creator. And I know as an athlete first, I always view myself as an athlete first. So when I hear the words content creator or influencer, I kind of poo-poo on that. I don't I don't like that. Uh I don't know, like I don't like that statement or saying or whatnot. How do you grapple with that? Like, what are your what are your thoughts on that?

Athlete vs Content Creator Identity

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Yeah, that's it. I'm I mean, I think um as I started exploring sort of that nuance or that mix, you know, this is 10 to 15 years ago. Like, I don't know if the term content creator existed because it was such a different landscape. I mean, when I was applying for sponsorships, or when I was, we would have these, you know, bonuses, it either it'd be a podium bonus or it would be like, and maybe some of these still exist, but but they it was you know, uh you a photo of yourself wearing the product and the circulation is X, and and you would, you know, literally I'm copying pages from the Denver Post or from Adventure Sports Magazine or or whatever, uh, you know, as content to give to sponsors, you know, for for a bonus. But in some ways, that was the early form of quote uh content creation. So um yeah, that exact term when when I think of the you know, the YouTuber or the content creator, like that is very far from my own experience or at least stereotypically. Um but I also think, you know, as I've gotten more into this, or even just recently with Schemo Gold, like, you know, kind of like you, I I I heard your State of the Steep Stuff podcast where you're reflecting, you know, kind of in a metacognitive way, like you're making this thing, this is the spot for um, you know, subulture trail running. Like that's what we want to do for schemo. Yeah. And one thing I've realized is like, okay, maybe the YouTube or the social media, these, these may not be sort of my wheelhouse, but these are things for me to learn about and to at least have a team that's really, you know, nailing it with it. Um, and it's it's like uh, you know, one story is like, oh, this is kind of a hassle and it's not me. Another story is like, this is intellectual development, and I love learning and I love growing, and this is a way for me to uh to learn and engage. So um, you know, I think it's I think it's legit. And I also, you know, I look at um we I recently did a schema gold podcast with my friend Sage Candidate, who, you know, lives great up close here in in Chafee County. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, and and but like Sage is such a great example of someone who is and has been a super legit professional runner for decades now. And like he is a really smart, hardworking, funny, creative guy who who creates uh you know fantastic content. And and that doesn't like that doesn't just happen overnight. Like this is a guy who's approaching it like a job because it is a job and he does a really good job at it. So um yeah, I I think it's uh I I think it really has um has value. And I also think like there's it's not like one thing is better than the other. Like, you know, in my mind, you know, as someone who's written books, as someone who enjoys the long-form conversation like we're having right now, sometimes I sort of eschew, you know, uh the real or the short or these kind of quick hit sort of things. And maybe that's just because that's not my it's not my way of consuming, you know. I just I don't even see that stuff myself. But I'm also learning like that takes a scum a ton of skill, you know. To me, it's almost like writing a poem. A great poem says a whole lot very quickly. And you could say the same thing about an Instagram uh reel or a YouTube short. Like, if you can say something really powerful very briefly, that's really hard to do. And and that deserves a lot of um credit.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

I agree. I agree. Uh, so many things to say off that. First and foremost, if Sage Kennedy does listen to this, keep an eye out for an email because that is someone I really want to have on the show sooner rather than later. I have his email address and I've been meaning to reach out to him. I've just been so busy. Um, dude, I can't wait to have him on. I want to talk about like some of the early days with Golden Trail and some of his uh, I mean, second place to Killian at the 2019 Pike's Peak. There's so like Sage has done so much in the sport. Um moving on, I don't want to bury the lead too much. I I want to get into Schemo Gold. I think that's kind of one of the cruxes of the topic, if not the biggest topic of this conversation. How did you come up with the idea to do this podcast? Um, I've had frequent co-host of yours, Cam Smith, on many times. He's a buddy of mine. Um, and I'm just sending all the cheering in the world on for him as he gets ready to go race at Milana Cortina at the end of the month. But uh yeah, maybe talk about how you started the show and and uh kind of your plans for it.

Why Launch Schemo Gold

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, well, uh, you know, this actually goes back to 2005 or six uh as well. Um at that time, podcasting was just getting started. Uh and a guy I was in touch with, so I was a you know a professional adventure racer at the time. We had a good sponsorship from Spider and we were traveling around and doing all the the big events. Um, and a random guy from uh New York named Fred Abaroa emailed me and he said, Hey, you want to do a podcast with me? And I was like, What's a podcast? And he told me, and and I'm like, hell yeah. Like I love talking to people, I love doing the interviews. He was a tech guy. So we did for man, I don't know, probably a year and a half or two years, we did this GoFar Adventure podcast where I was, you know, talking like this. I I don't think we were doing video calls at the time. Um, I can't remember exactly what we were using. I was doing some in-person with this little MP3 recorder thing. Um, but we put it out a bunch of, it was adventure racing specific. Um, and and it, as most podcasts do, it it petered out. And, you know, I I went my way. I I started, I got a full-time teaching job. Like, you know, the bandwidth just wasn't there, but it it sparked this interest. Like, I love talking to people. I love especially talking with people about stuff that they're excited about because I like sharing that energy with the world and I like taking in that energy for for my own life. Um, so it was kind of on the back burner. And then finally, uh, you know, as per most people, uh COVID rolls around and I'm like, I'm gonna start another podcast. So I did. That was 2021. Uh, and it was the Travis Macy show, Adventure, Mindset, and Life. Um, and we're still going with that. We could, we're kind of on break this winter because we're doing so much with Schemo Gold. Um, but I've done, you know, over 200 episodes with that and and learned as as you, I'm sure you have, James. You've done so many episodes, you've done it so frequently. I'm sure, I'm sure you've learned a lot. Like, what works, what doesn't work, what's your style, how do you prepare, how do you produce, um, all those kind of things. So uh, you know, about um, I don't know, what just about a year ago now, um, you know, I had those skills, but I also like I was ready to change it up. And one thing I wanted, honestly, was more team, you know, especially those of us who are self-employed, we work from home. Um, I just I love team sports. I think that life is a team sport, and I wanted more team in terms of this podcasting thing. So um I thought, how how can I do that? And like what's some what's something I'm interested in? And what's also something, you know, you've probably heard this this advice in podcasting and maybe content creation in general. Um, there's there's so many generalists and there's so many people doing that so well. You know, I think of Rich Roll, for example, is a podcast I listen to a lot. It's it's pretty hard to be the next Rich Roll now because there are so many people creating just lots of good stuff. But if you go very narrow with something uh, you know, niche, uh, such as ski mountaineering, you know, there's basically one other scheme podcast out there. They do a great job. They aren't quite as uh, you know, um consistent or frequent as as I would like to be. And I thought, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for this. And and it's you know, again, it's it's very uh it's unique. There's some components that are like pretty geeky and nerdy, and just like you can with trail running, you can get way into the weeds about weird little stuff. And and like I just I love that. And I also love talking with people from around the world. So anyway, that was uh schemo gold about a year ago. Like, hey man, uh, you know, instead of ready, aim fire, more of uh, you know, fire, fire, aim ready or something like that. But uh we've had it going, and and then uh you mentioned, of course, the one and only Cam Smith, not only one of, of course, the best athletes in the country and in the world, as we will see in the Olympics, and we've seen on the trails many times, but Cam is just an incredible person. And and I was like, okay, episode one, that is Cam Smith. So I called Cam. We did the episode, and then I don't know if it was the next day or what, but he's like, hey man, you want someone to host a lot of these with you? And I'm like, hell yeah, Cam. I want you on as many of these as uh as you want to. So um Cam's done as many as he can. You know, obviously his schedule is is uh a little busy uh this winter with things called getting ready for the Olympics. Um, but it's been super fun to do those with Cam. You know, I talked about the production team at Palm Tree Pod. And and then uh I have um Katie Friend, who is an announcer uh based in Switzerland, who's been, you know, in person and on the live stream doing schemo forever. And that's been super fun to collaborate with her for um these race analysis episodes where we're kind of and you've done many of these with with your pre and post-race coverage, you know. It's like, okay, we're we're the sports center of schemo. Like let's get into the nuts and bolts and what happened and you know, following those stories, and and um Katie's fantastic uh for that.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

It's just so necessary. So I'll give you a funny backstory. This is like over a year ago. Uh, I was talking to Davide Giordini, uh, who's a uh buddy of mine, and uh he's uh internal uh marketing at La Sportiva. And he had said something to me along the lines that, like, yo, someone needs to do a schemo podcast. And I had thought about it for a really long time to the point where I was it's funny, the day I think you guys announced it or somewhere in that time frame, I was gonna text Cam and be like, someone needs to do this, like you need to do this. Uh so I find it like it's it's so it was such a need that you you covered in the sport, especially not just with uh trying to bring the sport to the North American audience and and teach them and educate them about multiple sides of the sport, not just the Olympic disciplines, but you know, different aspects of it, like the vertical, so many important parts. Um but I don't know, I just I'm trying to, I'm just riffing off that idea, but like I'm just happy that you brought this to the audience and that people can actually learn about the sport. Um, because that's the thing, like in ultra running, there's a million podcasts. There, there's it's so densely populated, but there's no one doing short trail and having that conversation. And you can draw a very similar parallel on to the North American audience for uh ski mountaineering. There's really not a lot of podcasts out there that are having these conversations, not just with the athletes, but trying to educate them on what is going on in the sport, who the players are, who the stars are, and uh kind of what it means, especially for a year like this.

Star Building And Athlete Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we're going for. Yeah, shout out to uh Davide. He was he was uh maybe episode two or three or something. He he was someone I wanted on there as well, and and uh and we had a lot of fun. And I'm I'm glad that you mentioned um that star building, uh James, because that's another thing you touched in in the in the on your state of the steep uh stuff, uh, you know, whatever that was a few weeks ago. Um because that's I I'm I'm I'm glad that you introduced that idea. I think it's important to um tell those stories and and also bringing notoriety to athletes. Um, you know, in an authentic way, but also with some mystique and excitement. It's important for the sports, it's great for those athletes. And it's also great as I think about that, you know, five-year-old Travis there standing at the Leadville 100. Like part of what made that exciting is I I had seen, you know, I had seen it wasn't Leadville 100, but I had seen uh Mark Allen versus Dave Scott, you know, on TV in The Iron Man. And I had seen uh Greg Lamond riding in in the Tour de France. And like seeing those athletes, that like made it. I'm I still have chills, like thinking about, you know, Lamont winning the tour on the time trial on the final day. Um, like those are the stories that I want to bring to kids who see Cam Smith or Anna Gibson, you know, who you've talked about on your podcast, or you know, uh Emily Harrip of of uh France, like the gold medal medal favorite, or her teammate Thibaut Anselme, uh, you know, like that's a big, a big question. Like, can France win all three Olympic golds? Um, they may have a shot. They have two athletes who are both the best. They might walk away with all three Olympic golds. Um, stories like that are pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah, on the topic of starbuilding, it's um, yeah, I just I don't know. Like I grew up, uh I played football in high school. I grew up a fan of uh wrestling, mixed marshall, a lot of like non-sports even related to running. And like I played soccer as my primary sport. And yes, it's where I built an endurance base, but it's you can borrow ideas from different sports. Like uh I think soccer is a great one where they did it, they do an amazing job at starbuilding. Yes, these guys are making millions of dollars, and there's there's tons of money flowing through that sport with sponsorship and things like that. But there's a lot of ideas that you can borrow from you know from adjacent sports to bring into our sport. And I think one of the things that ultra running traditionally has done an amazing job at in the last decade, especially in North America, um, because we are so long trail focused, is how do we build stars on the short trail side? You know, we have athletes like Joseph Gray in our sport, and half the people have never even heard of Joseph. And he's I mean, there's a good argument that you can make that he's probably one of the greatest. I mean, he was voted by WRMA, and nobody even knows this, but voted by WRMA the greatest mountain runner of all time. And it's like, how do we go about building these stars and telling, you know, people like Joseph's stories and conveying these stories to the world? Like, I I I and it's crazy to me because you know, Ana Gibson is, I don't know, weeks away be from becoming a global star. Like more people around the world will get to know her name, which I think is so cool. But who is that gonna inspire uh as a young gun in North America to become the next Anna Gibson or the next Cam Smith? And what is that gonna look like for our sport decades down the line? So it's kind of cool that you know, this is just paving the way for what our sports are gonna look like, you know, decades down the line when uh hopefully traw running is an Olympic sport and schemo's even bigger. Maybe they'll have a hopefully they have a vertical by then. Um it's I heard it's sounding good for a vertical to be thrown in. I don't know why that's not a discipline. It kind of makes me scratch my head, but all good.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see. I think some of these other disciplines could could be added. You know, obviously I I'm I'm not, you know, I on the Olympic committee or anything, but I I I think they would be really cool and I hope they will. And um a question for you, James, on on the star building, like what are your strategies for that? Is it is it just talking with the athletes to let their stories and personalities uh shine? Is is it uh intentional collaborations in terms of uh content? Is it really of course there's different uh personalities, you know? So some people love being in front of the camera and media, some people don't as much. I mean, you mentioned uh Joe Gray, like I mean, that guy, he has been the best trail runner, you know, in the country and and likely beyond, you know, my entire post-collegiate running and and life experience, like literally that whole time, you know, 20 years. It's crazy. He's been at the top. Like, yeah, people should know who he is. You know, I've I've seen him here and there at races or or competed against him and you know, seen him for a very short period of time. Um, yeah, the guy's incredible.

Team USA’s Ceiling: Cam And Anna

SPEAKER_01 26:21

So I think the way we have to do it is let personalities shine through. Like most of the people in our sport, uh, see, I don't know. I find short trail to be more meritocracy than ultra running. I think it's a little bit different and a little more nuanced, right? And I think the way we approach this from the steep stuff perspective is multiple different things. We're gonna have partnerships with individual athletes. We'll we'll help to partner with them for different films and short like short film projects to try and tell their stories. We'll have more stuff involved on social media. But I think most of all, it's let the personalities shine through. Like Joe, if you ever get him alone, like he's the he's the ultimate competitor. He reminds me so much of some of the greatest athletes that you've ever heard. Like your Kobe Bryants of the world. Like you're some of your the athletes you think of that just have like that switch that they can flick on and they just are true professional, that like it kind of gives you the chills when you hear them talk because it's so inspiring. Joe is like that dude. Um, and it's how do we how do we let that personality shine through? Because I think if you let the sh the true him come through in short videos and things like that, and and trying to build his star power and and get his name out there through more personality-based stuff, I think that's where you make these like global stars. Like, I mean, we they've done different things in the past, like with Jim. I think what made Jim so interesting, Jim Walmsley, uh, in the wasn't so much the stuff Jim does now. I think it was the early years for Jim Walmsley when he was putting out this uh the cat the uh Coconino Cowboy films of like um making the wrong turn at Western states. Like he was a very he was borderline arrogant, man, in his abilities, but that's some of the stuff that gets like people interested and wanting to learn more because they almost want to root against you, right? So I think there's more you can put there in short trail um for that ability. And then there's also you know a lot of really strong, amazing, humble people, and I think those stories can be told too. I think there's people with different backgrounds of different things. Um, so I think a lot of it's having the partnerships with these athletes to be able to help tell their story, but also really convey their personality of the type and level of person they are. Like, dude, Cam's a great example. I I always I think about Cam a lot when it comes to this. Um, because he's he's just a kind, he's such a kind person and he's kind of unassuming, and you would never know that he is like the ultimate competitor and like takes this so seriously. Um and I I don't think the world knows as much of like I don't think enough of Cam, who Cam truly is, has been really captured from uh other than you know some interviews and some some things like that. So I think there's a lot of really good storytelling ability um to show like who this athlete is uh kind of in the space, which would be kind of neat, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um I uh Cam and I did an interview, it's gonna come out during our Olympics coverage. Uh we co-interviewed a guy named Pete Kadushin, who is a uh mental performance coach. He he's a really interesting guy and and cool backstory. He was Cam's profession professor uh in college um in Gunnison. Cam took like 21 credit hours from this guy. And anyone who knows Cam, you're right. He has a true uh professional and also killer mindset that works really well and works for him, and it's it's authentic to who he is. And so uh Dr. Kadushin gave us the advice that uh if we can behave and perform as athletes with a sense of unobstructed self-expression, um, that is where we will not only feel the happiest and the most authentic, but also achieve our best results and outcomes. So we talked a little bit uh for Cam, you know, that self-expression, it's it's joy and it's excellence. And by pursuing first joy and excellence as the ultimate motivators, um, those actually lead to something like qualifying for the Olympics, much better than saying, I'm gonna try to qualify for the Olympics and you know put the personal expression behind. So yeah, I think that's that's what we see with with Cam. If you have a conversation with him, I was just watching the World Cup that they did yesterday in in Spain, and even in brief little clips. And I think my perception is that Anna is kind of wired this the same way. They are they are fierce competitors, and clearly they both like fun and human connection, and I think that's what's uh what's making them um a good team.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yeah, no, I I agree. I agree. What is I mean, I was gonna save this to the end of the conversation, but like, what do you think the ceiling is for for this type of team? Like for Anna and Cam. Like, dude, here I I don't know anything. So here I am, like, this is the Cinderella team, like they're gonna upset the world, here we go. Like, what do you I mean from a true professional and someone that understands this a hell of a lot better than I do, like, what do you think?

Olympic Formats: Sprint And Mixed Relay

Funding, Systems, And Youth Pipeline

SPEAKER_00 31:15

That's that's a that's a good question, James. I mean, they are they are so so good, and there's a lot of Americans in schemo who are like just at that that threshold. Um, so for example, there was a World Cup in Spain this weekend um in the sprint race, or maybe maybe I'll give a little bit of background. So, what what are the Olympic disciplines? There's two races. One's called the sprint that lasts about uh three minutes or so, and it's six people who go off at the line together. It's head to head, it's super exciting. It's kind of like a skier cross or a BMX race, you know, in the sense of anyone who's watching can tell what's going on. So the gun goes off and they take off, and they are they're literally sprinting. I mean, they are running full speed on skis with a unique form because your skis, you don't want them coming off the ground. You want them sliding still, but you're going incredibly fast. And then gradually it gets steeper, it goes through a short section called the diamond, where there's kind of a um, you know, some uh flagging that you have to go around, and they make it look easy, but it's actually really hard to do these relatively sharp corners at that speed. Uh, then you keep going up a bit more, you get to a designated transition area, you take your skis off, you put them on your back, you know, clip them to your pack, pick up your poles, and then take off running slash hiking up a very, very steep hill. Sometimes it's deep snow. Uh, very often in the Olympics, we'll we'll see um stairs that are made. So you're basically running or and or hiking, power hiking, you know. Uh it's the same trail running stuff, up these steep stairs. Uh, then you get to another transition area, put your skis back on your feet, skin uphill. Again, you have climbing skins on the skis. That's what's allowing you to go up. And then you get to the top of the hill, rip those skins. Uh, people have probably seen that. That's the that's a sexy shot, the double skin rip, right? You jump up, you fling the skis back, you stick them in your pouch, uh, you adjust your boot and your binding so that the boot is stiff and your heel clips in, and then you take off downhill skiing uh through gates to the finish. So, again, that's about three minutes. That's called the sprint. And then the other race, and this is where uh uh the team USA um is more competitive currently, is called the mixed relay. And um, it's it's again super exciting. One woman and one man. The woman goes first. Uh, she does a course that takes something around six minutes, and within that six minutes, uh, there's two climbs and two descents and a number of transitions as well. So these transitions, the skins on and off, the skis on and off, they're they're very important. Uh woman hands off to the man, he does that same course again, six minutes or so, hands off back to the woman, she does the same course again, back to the man, he does the same one again. So each athlete is doing, you know, two by six minutes or so. So the the sprint, you know, from a running standpoint, that's that's imagine run run your 800 meter on the track, and then at the end of it, ski downhill full speed and do this transition where you know, uh anyone who's running 800, you know at the end you can't think straight, you got blood in your mouth, like you can't breathe. And in that state, you have to do these transitions and then ski downhill full speed on these 6,500 foot matchstick skis. Uh, whereas the the mixed relay, you know, slightly different energy systems in that you're doing, you know, again, two by six minutes. So, you know, it's not quite as much VO2 Max. And it's also doing that twice is pretty unique with having that that rest uh in between. So um anyway, that's kind of uh that's what we're that's what we're looking at. And then what was oh, you were saying, what's the ceiling for the US? Um I you know it just put you on the scene. Like we we are yeah, we're we're coming, man. That's that's my answer. We in USA schemo, I mean not, I'm not an athlete, but like we as a country, we we are coming. Um we are getting closer and closer. In the World Cups, Americans in the sprint are more often qualifying um for the heats. So the at a World Cup in the sprint, let's say there's um, you know, like this last one, 60 men were competing. So the first round, all 60 men do a time trial, and then the top 30 go on to to the heats, and then uh a portion of those go to the semis and then the finals. So in order to at to win a World Cup, you've actually done that four times. You've done a three-minute all-out effort four times. And if you're the very best person, you can probably make it through the qualifying in the heats and maybe even the semis, you know, kind of holding back a little bit. Almost everyone else has to just go all out just to try to make it uh, you know, out of the qualifiers. So more and more Americans are making it into uh the heats. Um we do have uh, let's see, about 12 years ago, an American woman, um Nina Silich, uh, we did an interview with her on Schemo Gold, uh, and she won some World Cups uh in the sprint and also got a medal at the World Championship. So she kind of uh she's hit that level. Again, this is 12 years ago. She was living in Europe at the time, you know, kind of had a bit of an inside track, of course, worked really hard, was an incredible athlete. So she's shown that it can be done. Um Cam has podiumed uh in verticals uh in the World Cup circuit. So he, you know, he's right there. And again, the Americans are typically a little more competitive as the distances get longer. And then, as many listeners know, uh the first World Cup this year was in December at Solitude in Utah, and uh Team USA had two teams in in the B final for the relay. They got first and second in the B final, and then the team of uh Caminana got first in the A final for the relay. And and that was a huge breakthrough to get that victory in a World Cup. And some of the very top teams, um France and Spain in particular, were not there, uh, but they beat a very, very good Italian team. And they're you know, they're in the mix. They the race had happened um as we record this. What is it? It's February 2nd. So um two days yesterday or the day before the World Cup in Spain, I think they finished sixth or seventh. Um, and and that was that was a big jump from last year, and and they they didn't have the smoothest race. Um, I think Cam Ski fell off at one point. Um, there's unique conditions in terms of you can imagine, um, as with any trail race, you know, the conditions vary from race to race, like what shoes are you wearing, what you know, pacing, hydration, all this kind of stuff. Like the the snow and um the atmospheric conditions were kind of unique. And so there they had some issues with skins and some other stuff. Um, but they were still like right in there, you know. And I I I think this Olympics, I think there's a chance at a medal. Um, that would be an incredible performance, you know, and if they're top five, top six, like that would be awesome. From these teams, um, you know, you think of France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, like these countries have been so much into this sport for a long time. Um, a lot of them, like in in Spain, they have schemo academies where all these kids are going to a residential school for schemo. Um, you know, in Italy and France, a lot of these athletes um are military athletes. So they're in the military, which, you know, pays for their professional lifestyle uh as an athlete and also pays their salary, and all they have to do is be an athlete. And, you know, that's a bit different, as we know, from from US, where you're figuring out sponsors. Many people are still working other jobs. I mean, you know, Cam was always working another job until this year, uh, you know, when when Dinafit um kind of increased their support of him and he's able to, you know, really be a full-time pro athlete. So so crazy. Yeah. Anyway, they they've got we'll we'll see. I'm I'm just super pumped. The fact that they made it was awesome because you know, they were right on the edge, um, and and they're they're making jumps, you know, and and and Anna's been a big piece of that, and it's been incredible to see uh um uh you know all the pieces fit together. She was a great alpine skier as a kid, she was a uh Nordic national champion as a teenager, she's of course been a great runner, you know. Basically, she had to learn the transitions and stuff, and now she's right in the mix. She's you watch a race, she transitions as fast as any of these people who've been pro schemo athletes, you know, for a decade.

Altitude, Power, And Training Philosophy

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Which is nuts, too, man. Like, that's crazy that she and what's wild is like she's only gonna get better, you know. Like that's that's the thing. Like she's only gonna find improvement. Anna is like a Swiss Army knife athlete, man. It is so crazy to the think that we have like that level of talent, like in our just in our trail running pool. Um, you know, not just can she do it on the track and the trials, but now she's going to the Olympics and in you know the mixed relay. That's so crazy. I one thing I was gonna make a point on is I feel like, man, like now the US is uh I hope this is great for the future, for uh bringing up younger athletes kind of into USA schemo and into the fold. Because you know, you look at like the future. I mean, guys like Griffin Briley, who I've had a chance to race at a Cirque Series race, kid is immensely talented. And he's very I don't even think what is he, like 19 years old? Um that kid is the future of the sport in so many different ways, and whatever uh you know discipline he so chooses. Um I know Cam had made a uh a comment that like he was gonna be uh you know pushing Cam, you know, in in future uh Olympic cycles and things like that. So I find it really interesting and really neat that you know as as Cam and Ana continue to develop, there's amazing other talent waiting in the wings to you know take their spot when you know they so choose to not do this anymore, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Oh yeah, totally. I I think you're right on in the the future is now in terms of young talent coming up in schemo. We see that there's a number of youth programs, probably the the lead is the Silver Fork Schemo program in the uh Salt Lake area. I mean, they've got dozens and dozens of kids uh who come to almost all the schemo races uh throughout the West. They do international trips. We've got teams in uh in Summit County and Bend, Oregon, and uh um Durango, and and it's it's uh it's it's there already, and and it's super exciting. I I did uh a vertical schemo at Wolf Creek um earlier this year. And you know, there were, in my estimation, let's say 100 people on the starting line, and and I bet at least 60 of them appeared to be college age or younger. Um, and that was that was led by Griffin. He won the race. Um, you know, it took me 25 minutes and it took Griffin 20, you know, and I'm still uh, you know, pretty good going uphill, but like, you know, uh take Griffin's time and add 25%. Like, you know, that's that just shows how good uh he is. And I was racing back and forth with a uh young woman named McCall who's on the uh U.S. national team. She's an 18-year-old high school student, and we're racing back and forth. And I'm just thinking, wow, this is this is awesome that an 18-year-old is just uh taking it to me here. So um, yeah, they're they're coming. And they and there is um, you know, we're all hearing those names Cam and on them because they're the ones who qualified for the Olympics, but it really has been a team effort with many athletes over the years accruing these World Cup points to get to the point where, you know, two athletes had the chance to go. It really has been a team effort, and it also um, you know, Cam kind of reflected on before before they qualified, uh, there were conversations around like, well, in order to really get um funding from sort of the the national U.S. Olympic uh governing bodies, you need to show that you can put athletes in the Olympics. Um, but then there's kind of the you know, the catch 22. How do we get someone into the Olympics before we, you know, have have that um funding? And and now that they've made the Olympics, I think there will be a lot more support in things like you talk about Colorado Springs, access to the Olympic training. Training center, you know, where young athletes can can go and do offseason work and just all all of this other stuff. Um, yeah, I I absolutely think it it can grow. And I and I think if we look at um, you know, I'm really into mountain biking. Look at the um starting with the Colorado High School Mountain Bike League, and then that became NYCA, and just it's become this national thing, and and the best American men and women cyclists on the mountain bike and on road and on gravel have now come out of the high school league. Um, I I think that we can see, not that there's schemo is probably never going to be a high school sport, but like it can grow even even at that uh at that age.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. It I I have uh a kind of a semi-related, not so related question for you. Uh that's more coaching related um with your with your coaching hat. And I I've debated, not debated this, but I've had this conversation with Cam. I've had this conversation with a lot of people, but I've never geared it toward schemo before. Do you think in order to be very like I find it interesting because Cam is a little bit of an anomaly where he lives very high in crested butte. Um and what I always think can come back to is the power generation that you need to have, because a lot of times they're racing those schemo races at lower altitudes and being able to generate that level of power and get, I guess, X amount of load in as well, um, because it's it's obviously much harder to get that load, that training load in at higher altitudes versus lower altitude where you can recover faster. Do you think it's more optimal to get really good at these races and get really good at the sport living in Europe? Or can you do it? I mean, Cam has really shown, and so is Ana, uh coming out of Jackson, like that you can do it in North America in some locations. Like, what's your take on that?

Olympic Schedule, Coverage, And Access

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, James. I mean, I mean, I would say in some ways both. Um, you know, living and training at a high altitude, you know, crested butte is 9,000 feet. Here I am at Solida at 7,000, and you're, you know, we got this step down, you're in the springs at at 5,000 to 6,000 feet. You know, in some ways, they're all good for different things. I I mean, honestly, I would say if if your goal is to compete in especially a a sprinter mixed relay race, these very short races where uh power and raw speed are really important, you know, it'd probably be better to live if there was a bunch of snow in a ski hill, to live in the springs at 5,000 feet and train there because you can just go faster. You can put out more power. So um I think what we're seeing from an athlete like Cam is well, most of the year you're in crested butte and you're, you know, living and breathing and being very good at high altitude, but especially for a short fast race, you you just can't get that super high end. And I think this is true running or cycling as well. You need to do some training at a at a lower altitude. And that's you know, you look at um pro cycling teams when they go, you know, train on the volcano, they're sleeping at the top of the volcano, but most days they're riding to the bottom, and at a much lower elevation is where they're doing shorter, punchy stuff uh and then coming back up high um for sleeping. And and the vice versa can work, but um I'm a big fan of um training low to get the speed and power. And I would say, yes, if your goal is to race um, especially many races throughout the year at a high level in Europe, probably you need to spend most of the season there. And that's what we see with the top schema athletes. We see that with, you know, the top cyclocross athletes or or cyclists uh, you know, who are doing a European calendar. Pretty much they're living there. Um and and the you know, the back and forth, the time zones, that's hard on the body too. So you you gotta choose a bit. And and and there is, yeah, you know, come hang out in Colorado, train, train high, live high. That can be helpful, especially again as you get into longer things. You know, maybe the the Pierra Menta, for example, that's that's uh in March, that's the long distance world championship this year. And we have um, I think four really good American teams going, these are teams of two, and and then two or three really good uh American women's teams, you know, that that it'd be tough for any of them to win, but they can they could be in that mix. And that's something where an athlete like John Gaston, who is, you know, living and training in the Aspen area, because that race is it's still super high end, but it's just longer, it's more endurance-based. I don't know John's exact schedule, but he could probably stay in Aspen uh, you know, up until a week before the race and then go over there and and be fine for something that is taking three or four hours a day for four days in a row.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Yeah. Super interesting, man. The physiological stuff is always uh it's always like for instance, like I always scratch my head. Like Noah Williams is a teammate of mine uh for the Lost Prativa team. But he lives at Leadville at 10,000 feet. And I'm like, dude, how the hell are you so fast and you live at 10,000 feet, and you're always training so high up? Like, how do you do that? And without like doing any speed work. So some people are just genetic anomalies and they can just do that, but I don't know. I was always kind I always came from the camp that like living lower, you could produce like I don't know. I've talked to Dan Kurtz about this as well, who lives in uh like New Hampshire, Vermont area, and he always swears that yeah, you can produce so much more power down there and get so much faster. Um, but it's always your Achilles heel then, because you're gonna have to readapt to altitude when you go back or if you want to race high. So I guess a lot of it depends on where you're racing, too. That plays such a magic role as well.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Exactly. What's what's your what's your final goal? Uh or you know, you use run on a treadmill, or or I, you know, when I was running much more seriously, I would do a lot of fast running downhill, you know, a gentle downhill dirt road. And like, okay, I can't run as fast on flat ground, but if it's downhill, I can run pretty darn fast. So that's a way to you know get the legs. It's not the full-on explosivity and power, but it is just leg speed running fast. Um, you know, go downhill.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah, so cool. So cool. Um, all right. Really quick, one of the things I want to get into before we uh start to wind down is the Olympic um just this kit the calendar. If I remember correctly, is it the sprint that's on February 19th? And I think it's the mixed relays of 21st. Do you know what those which ones are?

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Which? Yep. Exactly. Yeah, you got it. The sprint is February 19th, the mixed relay is February 21st, so those are both towards the the end of the Olympics, uh, you know, on Schemo Gold. We're doing an episode every day, kind of leading up to it. This is background, it's interviews. We got one with Cam and Anna coming up and in other podium contenders. Um, we got Max Valverde, he's gonna be the uh announcer on NBC, so we get a little bit of of his take. And uh yeah, so something to I I mean Olympics are are awesome. Probably a lot of listeners to both of our shows and enjoy the Olympics, and and I think it's kind of neat to, at least for me, have the thing that I'm most excited about uh coming coming at the end and looking forward to, but getting to follow uh the other stories along the way. I I've I've sort of thought if I ever I never will, but if I ever went to the Olympics, and it maybe you'll maybe you'll still go, James. But if if we go to the Olympics, I hope we get to compete on day one because then then it's like you get your thing done, and then you just get to, you know, be a fan and hang out and uh, you know, whatever, hang out with the Australian babes and stuff. Um, but Caminana don't get to do that. They they've gotta they'll probably do opening ceremonies. And then I think a lot of the schemo athletes, you know, I was actually talking to one guy, uh Belgian skier who lives in Switzerland. He's gonna go home. You know, he's doing opening ceremonies, and then he's just gonna be back at his house for the next 10 days or so and until coming, you know, back before the race. It'll be more like a normal World Cup for him in in that way.

Commentary Dreams And Auditions

SPEAKER_01 51:56

That might be, you know, I don't know. I get conflicted on it because it's like you want to control. I don't know, the athlete in me is like, how do we control as many variables as possible? Like everything from the diet to your sleep. And I almost feel like that's gotta be so hard to control all of that, like kind of going into a race where you know, I I guess they uh I mean I I went into some of this with Cam, but we didn't we were kind of limited on time. But I guess they put you up in a place to sl to sleep, they pay for your food, they're they at least they feed you. Um, but it's like still it's not what you're used to, so sometimes it's not as optimized of a diet. So yeah, as far as controlling the controllables, it's gotta be a tricky thing. And then on top of that, it's do you know how much they can like touch the course or like see the course ahead of time?

SPEAKER_00 52:39

That's a good question. Yeah, I don't really know. I I heard on your podcast when Cam was talking about the the gear check, like you bring your race gear and then you check it in at the beginning of the Olympics, and then basically don't see it, you know, until race day. And of course they have multiple sets of the same stuff. Um they did a test event. So the the the um schemo events are in a venue called Bormio, and they race the exact course last year, so they know you know, in terms of the steepness, it's gonna be exactly like it was last year. Uh that said, the uh schemo course, it's at the bottom, it's at the base of this uh Bormeo ski mountain. I believe they're using that same ski mountain for the men's alpine events uh this year in the Olympics. So my understanding is is like at some point, uh right now the schemo course doesn't even exist in terms of the steps, and they've made these cool berms for the corners, but right now that's like literally just the bottom of the downhill course. And I think that they wait until those, you know, whatever finishes there, the downhill, the super G, etc., they wait till those are done, and then they like literally build the course back up, you know, with snowplows or however they do it. So um I think that course, it may not even exist till a day or two before. So I'm not sure exactly where they'll be training, you know. They they find uh similar stuff. There's other ski areas and glaciers, and and again, I think different people will be different uh places, whether it's literally their home base or uh somewhere else, you know, that they've been for training. Um yeah, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Do you know what times we're gonna be able to tune in and like watch this? I already told my wife. I was like, hey, we're I don't care what time of the day it is. We're shutting things down that Saturday and we're we're cheering everybody on.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Yeah, I don't know exactly what time, and it won't be these races go pretty quick. There'll be more in the sprints because they'll they'll have some you know heats, but they go through um pretty fast. Uh the the the entire mixed relay uh you know is just about half an hour. Um they I off the top of my head, I don't know what time I would say. If you want to watch it live, it's gonna be early in the morning um just because of uh the time difference. And and then coverage leading up to it on NBC, that'll be an interesting choice. What do they do they decide to do any spotlights? Do they uh this guy, Max, he's um he's he's creative, he's a great entertainer. You know, he's I know he's pitching to NBC to let him come into the studio and do some of these funny things, demonstrate transitions, that kind of stuff. So hopefully we'll get to see Max doing that, you know, on NBC or Peacock, but uh who knows?

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Interesting. That's so cool. I have a question for you about commentating and just having the podcast in general. Like, do you think maybe the next Olympic cycle you'll try to be a uh a commentator of some kind? I feel like you just are so knowledgeable about the sport. You literally have like the biggest and only North American podcast doing this, and by that time it's gonna be huge. So like what uh and you've got the connects now. That could be cool. I feel like that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

James, I was gonna ask you the same thing because I heard you say that uh again on one of your podcasts. Sounds like you you answer first. You're it sounds like you've got some. Tell me what you're thinking in terms of of commentating. Would it just be trail running? Are you thinking these live streams? What are what are you interested in? And then I'll tell you my answer.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

Oh man. So I'll be uh so I will be commentating the US Mountain the US uh Mountain Running Championship this year at the Son of Peace Scramble, which I'm super excited for. I did that last year with uh Danny and MK, but I'll get to do it again this year. But as far as like long term for like real like Olympic stuff, dude, absolutely. I mean, I'll be old by that time. Like I'll probably be be, you know, who knows, in my 50s by the time we become uh a uh, you know, an Olympic sport. Maybe not, I don't know. I mean, I turned 35 in a few days, and so I feel like we gotta uh I mean, probably in my 50s by the time it becomes an Olympic sport, but absolutely, I'd love for that to happen. Um, you know, I'll probably be super old and not know what the sport's all about by that time. I'll just know the players, but forget like it'll probably be a completely different, different sport. Uh yeah, we'll see. I don't know. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Yeah. Oh, you'll yeah, you'll you you won't be you you'll be old, you'll be the age I am now, which is still, you know, you can still do it. Um in some things you get even wiser. You need more notes, but there's some things you get better at. You're young though, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 57:07

You're like low 40s, aren't you? 40, 41, 42. Yeah, yeah.

Hot Takes: Has Schemo Lost Its Soul?

SPEAKER_00 57:10

I'm 40, I'm 43. So um yeah. But anyway, um to answer your question, um, yes, I am interested in it. And I actually I I tried out for it for this Olympics. I I I auditioned with uh NBC and and they ended up choosing Max, as I mentioned. Um, Max is very good. He he has more experience than me. He's been doing some of the live streams uh for U.S. national championships and stuff. So, you know, cheer, cheers, cheers to Max. I'm sure he'll do a great job. Um, and then I also got to uh last June um I went to London for another audition with uh a group called OBS, Olympic Broadcasting Uh Systems. And OBS has the exclusive rights to do all filming at all Olympics. So any video footage that we see of summer or winter Olympics comes out of OBS cameras. And in the US, NBC uh is the media rights holder who pays OBS a lot of money uh to get that footage, and then NBC puts their own commentary over that OBS footage. Uh, but OBS also has their own commentators for live stream online uh if you go to Olympics.com and also for other countries where there isn't, you know, an NBC or a BBC or someone who's putting their own commentary over it. So uh they they put on, it was actually really cool. They put on this, it was a training camp uh for Winter Olympics um, you know, aspiring commentators. Most of the people at the camp were former Winter Olympians um andor World Cup athletes. Uh, you know, out actually out of all the athletes there, I was sort of the the least competitive of, you know, it's all these Olympians. And then I was there with uh Nicki La Rochelle here from Colorado, who's a great mountain runner. And she's of course been on the schemo World Cup. You know, I was just kind of the guy who like has done some schemo races, and you know, somehow I talked my way in and I got to go to this training camp. And it was awesome. And they gave us a lot of great instruction on on the preparation, on the delivery, on the um, we went into it was like a movie, James. You go in and you got all these TV screens and and like the the Giro was going on, the Giro d'Italia. So there's all these screens with cycling, and you can see who's commentating. And then they have all these recording booths where you know each one has multiple panels and it's got all the mics and and just the the full setup. So we did a few days of training and then we did an actual audition where you know I'm in there as the analyst. So two people, you got the lead commentator who's you know the man or woman who's been doing it forever, and you know, hello and welcome to Mario, blah, blah, blah. And they introduce it and then they're Travis, tell us what schemo is, and uh, you know, and then I tell them what schemo is, and we go through the races and stuff. Um, and that was a ton of fun. And I I got I got some good good feedback and and really enjoyed it. Um, I didn't end up getting that job uh either. Um Nikki got that, Nikki from Colorado, so she'll be doing some OBS commentary again. Nikki, Nikki's awesome, and cheers to to Nikki. Definitely looking forward to her her coverage online. Um, and it's like, you know, I mean, it's just like a race or any professional or academic opportunity. Like, dude, you put yourself out there and sometimes it comes through and sometimes it doesn't. And then you get to decide, is this something I want to pursue or not? Um, and for me, it is something I want to pursue. And in, you know, within Schemo, there's not very many uh commentary opportunities similar to trail running. But like, hey, if it's something you're interested in, keep learning, keep trying, and you know, and and maybe it happens. And and, you know, regardless of commentary or not, I know that I love podcasting. I know that this is something I can do, you know, from my home in the context of you know, my family. And even, you know, monetarily, um, probably it's more consistent and sustainable than kind of the one-off things of commentary here and there. It's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

No, it's very true. Now, and I feel like I don't know, you see a lot of other adjacent uh sports that you can pull from. I think there's so many. Um I mean, where it's kind of a good mix, man. You see former professional athletes get into it and they seem to have a good knack. Like, dude, you have you have the voice for it, um, you have the knowledge base, and obviously. So I I think, you know, I don't know what goes into making those decisions, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see you uh see on NBC Sports there in uh in another four years.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

We'll we'll see. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one here's another question for you about it, James. As you've as you've thought about being a commentator yourself, has that changed ever your viewing experience as a as a sports fan, whether it's trail running or you know, could be anything else, basketball, football?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Uh yeah, I don't know. It's uh I I draw a lot of uh I take things from other sports too, and I take things from other sports commentators as well. Like you'll hear me every now and then say he's going sizzler or he's uh for seamall violence. Like I'll say like weird things like that and be like, where did you get that from? Um and I'll just get them from random commentators that I find really interesting and and different people that I, you know, that I uh, you know, that just kind of rub off on me. Um but as far as has it changed my views? No, I think the most important thing going forward is just be be you, be you know, be authentic and be. And I just I I always say just be one of one, be completely different. And I find that in trail running specifically, it's easy to do that just because there's not a ton of players, right? And I think it's schemo, same thing. You know, it's very easy to be your own self, be one of one, be completely different than um you know, than other people in the sense where you're just truly being yourself and being authentic.

Vertical And Individual Missing In Olympics

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

So I like it. Yeah, nice. As we wrap up, I got one, I got one more question for you, uh James. You um I I know you're into hot takes and and even in terms of you know starbuilding and just uh intrigue, uh, you know, hot takes, maybe saying a little something controversial. Controversial question. What's what's on your mind right now? What's your it could be schemo, it could be trail running. Give me a give me a I I've got one in my mind, but first give me one. Uh uh a hot take or something a little controversial, James.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Oh, a hot take. Oh, this is a cool place to announce this. I mean, I talked I talked about it on my uh um Oh yeah, yeah, I guess I could say a few things. All right, let me let me I'll give you I'll give you something good. So one of the things that has driven me crazy in this offseason is uh something called Trailrunner of the Year. And uh it's been on my mind a lot lately because I just have found like you see Dylan Bowman defending himself, and there's been a lot of people uh you know criticizing him for it's such a big sport. How do you just make 10 of the best it we're everybody's an amazing athlete, everybody has good performances? One of the things that I always just it was mind-boggling to me is like, why didn't why don't we just make this based on math? Like, why don't we just let the math speak for itself? So I'm in the process of developing a short trail-based uh ranking top 10 for the end of 2026, and I'm so excited for it. And it's gonna just be for short trail athletes. It'll be across Golden Trail, it'll be across Cirque Series, uh WRMA, the whole shebang, any person that's running anything less than a 50k. And we're gonna just give a good old-fashioned uh math-based off your top, I don't know if it's gonna be three or five performances yet. We're still working on that, and we're gonna develop weighted averages based off of those and competition level and interest scores and all that good stuff. And uh the math will not lie, and we will have something that is purely math-based and super exciting to roll out for 2020, the end of 26. So that's my hot take. That's what's been on my mind lately.

Post-Olympic Paths And Pierramenta

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

All right. Yeah, you heard her first. I like it. I'll I'll check it out. I look, I look forward to it. Yeah. Uh well, I I got a couple from Schemo. I'll I'll make it uh real quick. Um one of them is is a question, and those who are kind of you know familiar with the world of schemo, and maybe you know, adjacent runners who follow it to some extent, it's it's this question of like, has schemo lost its soul because of these Olympic formats? And and you kind of touched on that. Like most of us, when we think schemo, we think this romantic thing where one or two people are up in the mountains and they're you know climbing up a ridgeline with a fixed with a uh fixed line, and then they're doing a boot pack up this technical thing, and then they're skiing down, you know, through some steep, nasty couloir with rocks on the sides, like Piramenta. That's schema, right? Exactly. The Piramenta. Go to go to Piramenta Instagram, you'll see what I mean. And now in the Olympics, we have something that that's similar, but it's different. We I told you the formats. They they are. Are in some ways, you know, constructed. It has all of the same uh disciplines, uh, the same skills, but you know, the experience is much different. And even you take an athlete like Cam Smith, who has did did and does so well in these longer, more technical races over many years, he completely reworked his training and his focus to be great in a two by six minute event, which I think is incredible. So, you know, that's a question people to think about has has schemo lost its soul? Um my answer is no. I think there's room for both. Like, I I look at running and I'm like, running is awesome. And I don't care if that's UTMB or Western States or the Boston Marathon or you know, a 400 or 800 on the track. They're all running and they're all awesome. Uh and that's my view of schemo as well. But some there are some strong opinions uh on this. Um, and we'll share we'll share some of them on our podcast during the Olympics. And then here's my other hot take. Um maybe the two best schemo athletes are not in the Olympics. Oh, dude, I was just gonna ask you. Okay, yeah, and this this speaks to that format when you look at the vertical in the individual. Um, on the men's s we have Remy Bonnet from Switzerland, who, you know, at the moment, this guy is like the today Pagachar of Schemo. And you know, he rarely, if ever, is beaten. His last vertical, he was quite sick. And you see his interview at the end, he says, I just wanted to do what what I needed to win. And he can like barely talk, but he still wins by nine seconds. And usually he wins by a minute or a minute and a half, you know, over the course of 20 to 25 minutes. Um, and then we've got on the women's side uh Axel Gachet Molleret um from France, who is, you know, maybe equally as dominant in the individual and the vertical and the teams races. Um and they're not doing the Olympics because they've they've stayed with their traditional format. So that's uh, you know, it's kind of interesting. It it is what it is. And I'm not taking away the the top Olympic athletes, they are incredible as well. Um Emily Harup in the sprint has you can make the case, has been just as dominant in that discipline. Um, maybe not a single athlete on the men's side, but they are they're incredible as well. Um, but you know, two for sure of the very top schemo athletes are not in the Olympics because their disciplines are not being featured.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Which is it's a crying shame. Like, all right, so we would this is I feel like the soul aspect, this is going this goes back to um climbing, man, when when the climbing disciplines were introduced.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

That's right, yeah. The first climbing in the Olympics, wasn't that weird?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

And that got super weird. And then they you know, they did the same thing with schemo to make it a little like I I don't know. Like to me, I I this is in the athlete of me, and I'm sure you, as someone that has raced a bunch of VKs, like, dude, how cool would it be for a vertical race? I mean, vertical races are always relatively short, you know. They're not only are they over fast, it's musty TV. People are going to the depths of their souls, you know, going up these super steep uh gradients. And I was just like, why is that not uh that's such an easy discipline? Now, I do have to say one thing though, and the caveat, like how interesting that is that Cam completely reworked the system for himself and got himself to be really good at the mixed relay when he was probably I mean, already the best vertical athlete that that the United States had to offer, and then goes and does that. So it goes to speak to like what kind of athlete he is. And dude, Anna, in the same way, like Anna, I would take Anna 10 times out of 10 when it came to a vertical race, um, especially on skis, they call her the motor, don't they? Because she's like unbeatable uphill, which is kind of crazy. So it's interesting to me how these athletes aren't even in their, I guess, um best disciplines, if you will, and they're still competing at the highest level and they're gonna go do incredible things. Um I was gonna ask you the Remy Bonet question, because I I, you know, I I follow certain things I can only follow so much. Um, and obviously the American audience, especially uh the American trail running audience, everybody for the most part knows who Remy Bonnet is. So to see him not being in the Olympic cycle for this year is is a bummer. And I I hope they re like I said, I think Cam said something uh when he was on the last show about them potentially adding uh I know it'll come back around, but maybe they'll add a discipline. And that's really what they should do. Is it I guess the uh what is it? There's the individual and then there's the vertical that didn't make it. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:31

Yeah, I would not yeah, I would not be surprised in four years from now if if they keep the sprint in the mixed relay and add the individual and or the vertical, and with the vertical being, you know, like in running, start at the bottom, finish at the top, and then the individual is more of kind of like a cross-country mountain bike race where we're talking typically 90 minutes to two hours, multiple different climbs, various uh descents, you know, the Pierra Menta uh kind of stuff. And and that's you know, man, TV, get some drones out there. Like it's harder to control if there's inclement weather, but it is it is so awesome. And the the you know, in terms of controlling a course, the vertical is a little easier because uh, you know, it's just more simple. But uh, you know, an individual could be done. The ISMF has been doing it with World Cups for a long time and having great filming. So uh the standards are there. So yeah, I I wouldn't be surprised if in you know four years, I think it's in France, and and then four years after that, uh, we have in in Utah, the home state of of Griffin Briley. I think we could absolutely see these things, and and I think they would be awesome on TV. Um and then I'll maybe I'll make a final point. I I gotta go in just a minute, but um, you know, a lot of these athletes, it's not either or. I think it's gonna be interesting to see after the Olympics this year, which athletes just through the end of this ski season, who is gonna stick around for the World Cups and really keep emphasizing uh the sprint and or the mixed relay, you know, and go for those World Cup points, go for the world title, et cetera. And who maybe is gonna shift focus for something like the Pierramento, which is again a four-day stage race, long stages each day, and it's the long course world championships this year. So it has a special notoriety. Um, my understanding is I think uh Cam Smith and David Sinclair are slated to do that together. Yeah, and and we have again a few other very good American teams, uh, both men and women. So that'll be really interesting to see. And I I don't think there's a right or wrong way. Maybe you want to keep doing the shorter stuff, or you know, I can imagine if it was me, it might be like, boy, I'm kind of tired of doing three minute races. Like, I want to go back and just do something that's like huge and awesome. And I think some people may do that, which is fine too. And they'll do great. You know, these athletes are so versatile, they can do both.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

I'm so curious to see what David Sinclair does with Western States training in his legs. I I know he's probably getting ready for the I mean, what are we in now? February. So I'm sure he's starting to layer block on the block on the block. I don't know how his skiing kind of fits into that, but yeah, it's gonna be very interesting. Those two together, dude, you're talking two of the best athletes the United States has ever produced. Oh my god. Uh killer, straight killers.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

And I heard Killian's doing it too. I can't remember Killian's teammate, but I I I yeah, I I unverified, maybe just a rumor, but uh we'll uh we'll see. All right, Paramenta will be in there. James, this has been awesome. I got I got a I got a coaching call here. I could I could talk to you all day long. Maybe we'll have to do another one sometime. Same, sometimes.

Wrap-Up And Support Calls

SPEAKER_01 1:13:41

Awesome. Travis, thank you so much. And uh yeah, we'll definitely be in touch. I appreciate your time. All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

Sounds good, James. Really appreciate it. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

You too. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun ramble session. Always a good conversation. I always love talking with thought like thought leaders in the sport and uh just hearing what their takes are on certain things and just an interesting guy. Uh Travis has been around the sport for a very long time. Um, and some would even consider a legend. That's what I would say. I always like talking to the legends. So uh guys, hope you enjoyed this one. The best way to support Travis is a bunch of different ways. The first one is to hop on over to Instagram, and you can do two follows right now. Follow the Schemo Gold podcast, also follow Travis Macy. They're both gonna be linked in the show notes. In addition, if you listen to the podcast or to your podcast on Spotify, YouTube, or uh Apple Podcasts, head on over and subscribe to the Travis Macy show as well as Schemo Gold. Definitely give them a follow. Definitely tune in, especially around the Olympics. This is the best time. Um if you're even schemo curious um or just want to learn more about you know the sport, schemo gold is kind of the best entry point. Um, frequent co-host Cam Smith, who's gonna be competing for Team USA in the Olympics, who we talked about on the show, is a uh is a frequent co-host and uh often teams up with Travis to interview a lot of these amazing athletes in the space. So lots of crossover between the short trail space and schemo. Uh that's part of the reason why we did this conversation, just because there's uh, for instance, Anna Gibson is an insane short trail athlete. So is Cam Smith. So many of the amazing athletes in the ski mountaineering world um cross over to short trail. So definitely uh leads to some good stuff there. Good synergies. I guess that's a new word I've been using. Um good stuff there. Guys, if you've been enjoying the podcast, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. If you are liking some of the content that we've been putting out into the world, like, share, follow along, and uh yeah, put it out to the world so we can continue to tell these amazing stories of these great athletes. Uh, we've got some good interviews, good conversations. We've got some free agency talk coming out, and then finally a big announcement. Whenever uh these goons over at uh over at Golden Trail decide to announce their calendar, we've got some cool things to roll out with that. I don't know what's going on there. Um so yeah, good stuff coming down the pipeline. Thanks for tuning in, guys. Love you all. Have a great rest of your week.