The Steep Stuff Podcast
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, your source for all things Short Trail
The Steep Stuff Podcast
#160 - Jackson Cole
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Steep grades, sharper ideas, and zero fluff—this conversation with Jackson Cole tracks a season where grit meets growth. We start with the highlights: a win at Cirque Series Alyeska, more Cirque podiums at Killington and Grand Targhee, a strong Rut 28K, and a proud top‑26 at the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships short trail. Then we zoom out to what shaped it all: a two‑week, 1,100‑mile bikepacking trip across New Zealand’s South Island that built deep aerobic strength and reconnected Jackson with the Southern Alps, from Aspiring and Aoraki’s glaciated faces to the ridge‑rich basins of Arthur’s Pass and Nelson Lakes.
Jackson breaks down why low‑altitude alpine can still feel massive, how technical courses reward decision‑making as much as VO2, and what The GOAT race showed him about grit over turnover. We revisit his hard push on T‑Winot in the Tetons—route choice, switchback ethics, and the line between fourth‑class flow and fifth‑class traps—and unpack the honest realities of chasing the Grand Teton FKT: weeks of scouting, precise acclimatization, and respect for the gold standards already set.
Worlds in Canfranc gets the spotlight it deserves: a steep, technical course that elevated skyrunners who are lesser known stateside, a New Zealand team that punched above its weight with minimal federation support, and a personal moment of pride that lingers longer than a ranking. From there, we look at the sport’s fault lines and opportunities—brand money flowing into short trail, the need to keep true skyrunning alive in North America, the promise of Beast of Big Creek, and why governance, fair access, and year‑round anti‑doping have to catch up with the cash.
We wrap with a living 2026 sketch: Mount Marathon in Seward, a possible return to Minotaur, Beast of Big Creek, and a decision tree that includes Whistler, Speedgoat, and a Skyrunner World Series run depending on support. If you care about real mountains, real talk, and a future where athletes can race hard without selling the soul of the sport, this one hits home.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves steep trails, and leave a quick review so more mountain‑minded listeners can find us.
Follow Jackson on IG - @jayrcolee
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oreal. And today I'm so excited to welcome Jackson Cole back to the show. Friend, teammate, in my opinion, one of the best mountain runners on the planet. So excited to welcome Jackson Cole back on for a conversation. I really appreciate his perspective on the sport, and uh it's always fun to just kind of banter about what's going on. And uh this episode is no different. We talked and went deep into his 2025 season. We talked about his win at the Cirque Series Aliaska and podiums at Cirque Series Killington and Cirque Series Grand Targy. We also talked about his podium at the Rut 28K and then went pretty deep into worlds. Uh Jackson represented Team New Zealand this year in the short trail discipline at the World Mountain Running Championship in Con Frank. And uh we talked about what it meant to represent Team New Zealand and compete at the highest level in the sport, where Jackson had a top 26 finish in the world, which was pretty cool. Gnarly course. Um we also talked about what Jackson had been up to as of recent. He uh just got back from a long bikepacking tour in New Zealand, um, which was very close to his roots, where he uh went and did, I think it was over a thousand mile bike pack as well as climbing a bunch of peaks, and he did a sky race as well, a um or mountain race uh that should be designated as a sky race, but did one in New Zealand and uh just had himself a blast out there, um, just doing long bikepacking days and uh building a ton of fitness, which was fun to chat about and uh just get his perspective on. Last but not least, we got into his plans for 2026, which are still very much trying to get figured out now. Um hopefully we have uh some announcements soon. Um looks like we did finally uh well, we'll get some more announcements as we go. But um, yeah, all good stuff there. Really appreciate Jackson for coming on the show. Uh, always appreciate his uh conversation. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy this Jackson call.
SPEAKER_02:Good. Thanks for having me back on, James.
SPEAKER_01:It's good to chat with you. Sort of a yearly catch up. I always have this like penciled in for around this time of year to do uh kind of check-in and uh kind of recap the season, talk about plans for the next year. And I know it was kind of fun this season, though. I got to see you a bunch, so it was it was more fun to kind of do these incremental catch-ups, and now we get to do one on the pod. So welcome back, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, it was good to see you at a few of the circ races, just catch up in person. It's always a little bit nicer to just chat while you're drinking a beer or something.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, good times in Killington and good times in Target. It was uh it was a fun, fun summer nonetheless. Uh, dude, I don't want to hide uh or bury the uh lead. How how are you doing, man? I know you just got back from a huge trip to New Zealand. You did this really fun uh bikepacking tour that was really fun to follow. Maybe talk, jump, jump into that, talk about your experience, why you went to New Zealand, some of the races that you did, and talk about this tour that you did.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um so uh just before Christmas, I went back to New Zealand, um, obviously where I grew up, and uh I was telling you offline. Um it had been quite a long time since I'd been back um home and um even longer since I'd spent Christmas there. So it was really nice to get back and hang out with family, have a Kiwi Christmas, which is you know it's summertime there, so you're kind of having barbecues and and uh laying low hanging out, so that was really fun. Um and then after Christmas, I um I bought a bike down there and um decided to do a big two-week uh bikepacking trip down the South Island of New Zealand, which is not where I grew up. I grew up in the North Island, but the South Island is notorious for having the epic mountain range. The Southern Alps runs through um the South Island of New Zealand, and I guess I I just wanted to um, I don't know, reconnect uh with with New Zealand in a way that felt uh more like in tune with who I am now. Um I'd been back to New Zealand a few times in the last 10 years, but never as a a mountain runner, never got to really experience the mountains in New Zealand in that way. So it was special to go back there, do this two-week bike trip where I feel like I fully immersed myself in the in the mountains. Um all the weather, all the rain, all the wind, uh totally get my shit rocked some days. Um it was a huge learning curve. I've never done a bikepacking or really a backpacking trip before, so I did sort of throw myself into the deep end there. Um and uh yeah, it ended up being the experience I wanted it to be. It was challenging, super challenging at times. Um, but really rewarding to sort of um yeah, get up and down uh this mountain range under my own power, visiting these national parks and places that I'd always wanted to see. Um and uh yeah, doing it by bike's really special and extremely rewarding. At the end of the day, you get to your campsite and you're just totally knackered from biking for 10 or 12 hours. And um yeah, I had plenty of mechanical issues and um everything else, but it all ended up working out in the end. And uh yeah, it was a pretty, pretty special time uh for me just personally, getting to be back in uh my home country and getting to see the mountains in that way.
SPEAKER_01:What are those peaks like? Talk about uh I mean, is there anything maybe in the Alps or North America that you might be able to compare them to, like altitude-wise and and just ruggedness-wise?
SPEAKER_02:I would say the um so the the Southern Alps is a more or less a coastal range, so it sort of runs along the west coast of New Zealand. Um and so I compare them most the the like Aspiring National Park for sort of where all the bigger glaciated peaks are, Aspiring, and then um Mount Cook National Park. Um they remind me a lot of uh the Cascades. Um these really steep approaches, super bushy and roody trails to get up into the Alpine, and then it's this yeah, epic glaciers, um jagged peaks, really challenging terrain. Um New Zealand, like anywhere else, is experiencing the effects of uh climate change, and so the the glaciers are receding in a big way, uh, making the terrain a little trickier to navigate. Um actually in New Zealand, it's far more common to take a helicopter into the Alpine than to do it under your own power from the the valley floor. Um so anyway, it was um fully immersive and uh the um further north you get so closer to like a town like Nelson. There's Nelson Lakes National Park and Mount Aspiring, or uh and uh the Arthur's Pass National Park. And that area reminded me more of um Montana, Colorado, sort of the classic US lower 48 Rocky Mountains. Um you got these like big ridgelines. There's still some presence of glaciers there, but it's not as abundant. Um and yeah, just really fun trail running ridgeline connections. Um totally awesome. It was great.
SPEAKER_01:What's the altitude like? Is it I think the high point somewhere like three to six thousand feet, something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's um so again, it sort of depends. The the high point, so in Mount Cook National Park and in Mount Aspiring, you've got some 3,000 meter peaks, so just sort of a touch above 10,000 feet, with the high point being uh Aldaki, which is Mount Cook, which is at like 12,000-ish feet. Um and uh so that's the high point of New Zealand. Um but for the most part you're sort of climbing peaks between seven like Alpine is around five or six thousand feet. Um so you're sort of in that range. Once you get above six thousand feet, you're in the alpine, and the peaks in most of New Zealand are like between eight and nine thousand feet. Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Um the reason I ask is is it it really intrigues me. Uh like learning more about this is like I've been doing a deep dive. I always found it interesting. Like uh you could take a zone like um I guess Wyoming's like pretty, pretty interesting zone, right? The winds, and then you get into the Tetons, and you realize their their tree line is so much lower than like ours in Colorado because we're so much further south. I didn't realize that and started doing more research. And then the further north you go, the tree lines get lower based off the altitudes, which I find to be like it's it's very odd, it's very interesting. So I don't know, it's kind of one of the reasons why I asked.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's funky too, because obviously I have lived there a long time in Elamosa and the San Luis Valley, which is at 7,500 feet. Um, and so yeah, in New Zealand I'd be climbing some peak, and uh you feel like you're in you know, this big alpine terrain at 7,000 feet, and then thinking about, oh man, I used to live at 7,500 feet, and that was just my day-to-day. So it's it's kind of a weird contrast, but that's one of the more unique things about the US.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's interesting. Your uh so your Straba, the um official stat you put up was something like 585 miles or somewhere along the range of that. Was it about that? Was that pretty spot on for the distance? Like it's pretty pretty solid, dude.
SPEAKER_02:It's a it's a uh for one way. So it ended up being 1100 uh miles out and back. Um so yeah, in in basically two weeks, um I cycled down. Uh it was like 500 and oh, I don't remember the exact stats, but five hundred and chains getting down, and then on the way back, I had some detours to get to a few different national parks. Um and then in the end it was just shy of 1100 miles, or like just shy of 2,000 kilometers. Um so yeah. And like going into it, I'd never biked more than I think 40 miles was the longest bike ride I'd ever done. And like day one, I think it was like 120 or 130 miles on the bike, and my butt was really sore, my legs are really sore, my knees are sore with all it was so tough. I ended up uh eating so many sweets and chocolate bars and everything else to just survive. It was great.
SPEAKER_01:So long term though, because I know we'll talk about the race you ran after. Um, but uh I mean, because it's a different type of like training stimulus being on the bike like that. Um do you think it was a like a great aerobic stimulus for you to just for an off-season kind of thing to just do this giant like aspect of the build? Um, especially for like climbing legs. I feel like lots of cycling can help with the climbing legs a ton. What do you what's your thoughts on this?
SPEAKER_02:Big time. I totally agree with that. Um, I thought it was great because I was looking for something to do. You know, in the winter I just like to do as much skiing as possible. Um, and so going to New Zealand and obviously there's no skiing to do at this time of year, but um, I was thinking that it would be awesome to do something that wasn't just running. Um so adding the bike to it was great, uh, and a great training stimulus, sort of in that same low zone for a long time. And it's easy-ish. It's not easy, but it's more manageable to do 10 hours on the bike every day. Or maybe I probably wasn't doing 10 hours a day, but you know, between six and eight hours a day on the bike, um, as opposed to just doing a couple hours of running every day. Um so no, I think it was great um boost for my my fitness. Um I feel really fit at the moment, um and have sort of I did like a local schema race last week um and had like the best result I've ever had in one of those schema races. So it's promising. You never know how it'll translate to race performance, but um yeah, I think it was a good stimulus uh at the end of the day. And I think something I'm gonna implement a bit more in my training, doing more cycling now that I've got a nice bike.
SPEAKER_01:The bike is dead, man. I got into a last year when I was injured, and yeah, I fell in l fell in love with it. It's yeah, you can just do, I don't know, I feel like Colorado, Montana, great places with big open spaces, so you can get just tons of hours and plenty of mileage in. Uh it's gonna be you know conducive for lots of hours of training. What um uh talk about this race that you did, the GOAT uh that you did in New Zealand, this like epically technical sky race or something along the lines of a sky race.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. Yeah, it definitely had all the requirements to be a sky race. Um it was uh awesome, it's this race I'd heard a lot about through um some of my Kiwi teammates who had run it before. And my aunt and uncle had also run it a few times. Um, and I'd only heard good things about it. Everyone knows that I love technical trails, and so they were saying that if you're in New Zealand in January, you've got to do the goat. Um, so it was a tight turnaround from the bike trip, being that I got back on the the 15th and then raced on the 17th. So uh definitely um I think energy-wise kind of felt that turnaround, it was tough, but um luckily the course is so technical you didn't have to have good running legs, you just had to have a bit more grit and termination on that course. Um so yeah, it was it was super fun and cool to that was the first trail race I'd ever done in New Zealand. Um, and it was fun to not only line up with some of my uh teammates from Spain, uh Ryan Carr and Maya Flint. Um so it was fun to line up and race those uh people again, um, and then just hang out with them. So yeah, it was a really cool experience. So anyone that goes to New Zealand in January, I'd highly recommend doing that race because it's also in a really cool area of the North Island. Um the uh like Mount Ropehu is a really um amazing mountain in New Zealand, and the there's a classic alpine crossing called the Tongodero crossing, um, just outside of that area. So um definitely worth the trip if you're uh going over for a visit to New Zealand in January, you should do that race. Dude, it's sound highly recommended.
SPEAKER_01:Uh is there more any plans to start going back like more often? Because I feel like the the mountain running there just sounds absolutely epic.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, I think at least once a year I'm gonna try and make it back. Um seems like all of the mountain races happen in February and March. That's sort of the true summer in New Zealand. January is kind of like equivalent of maybe May or June in the States. So it's kind of on the cusp of summer. Um whereas uh February, March, April, that's like the true, that'd be like July, August, September um equivalent. So yeah, I'd like to go back, do some more races over there. Um there's a full race series there now called the Kia series, um, which is kind of mimicking off of things like the Cirque series and Skyrunner World series. So um yeah, I would love to go back and do a full full circuit in New Zealand. Um there are some frickin' talented athletes in New Zealand that don't really get showcased internationally, but um absolutely crush in the local scene. So um it would be fun to go back and race those people. Uh and then also just be more immersed in that in that trial running scene. The New Zealand trial running and ultra scene is really strong, so it's like fun to be a part of that for a short period of time. And I'd like to be be part of it a little bit more if I could.
SPEAKER_01:So that's interesting too, especially being a a well-known athlete like yourself in the space who's had so much success in the skyrunning realm of the sport. Like hopefully, I mean, others like you and yourself like could be a champion to maybe bring a skyrunning race, like a true like stop on the Skyrunner World Series to something like New Zealand. Because that would be really cool for international athletes to get to come down and experience not just the culture, but just the area, everything that they're you know, that there is there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, big time. I think it'd be a great opportunity for Skyrunners who maybe don't participate in scheme mode to race um in that like February, March range. I know Skyrunner, you know, this year have a few races in South America and Spain that are really early season. Um, so it makes sense to add New Zealand to that list. Um the the process is difficult, obviously, but I'm sure there's there's a race director in New Zealand that's stoked on it for sure. So I think um it will be really awesome because there are a few actually pretty young New Zealand mountain runners at the moment that could make waves on the Skyrunning World Series um or any World Series that they chose. So um it's sort of a matter of giving them the opportunity to um, without traveling to Europe, show that they can race fast on these technical courses, and then the Skyrunner, you know, will give them support to go overseas eventually. But it just takes you know, I got my chance at Minotaur, was basically how that all happened for me. So giving a New Zealander the chance to race a sky race would be awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Um I mean yeah, makes logical sense. I mean, especially I think the first stop on the series is like February, like last week in February or second to last week in February. So yeah, it's like coming up not too far off. So it makes logical sense. I mean, if they wanted to do something, they could definitely uh yeah, we gotta we gotta lobby for that. It'd be dope. Um speaking of teammates, I I want to talk to you about worlds, man. We we hung out I think just before you ran the rut, and then you went off the worlds like a few weeks after. Obviously, had a great showcase there. Um, I think what 25-26 in the world in the short trail, which is an incredible result. Talk about your experience there, talk about what it was like to represent New Zealand uh on the world stage like that, especially now that worlds has gotten so much more legit. Uh and all like really all eyes on the sport uh have really come down on and watching worlds.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that was uh that was awesome because worlds, I think, more than any other year, showcased the the best athletes in the sport showed up for that race, um, or those races. Um so it was it was interesting um just to talk about worlds for a sec outside of like my own competition. It was cool to see some of the athletes that had competed on the Skyrunner World Series, who are much lesser known in the US, uh go and basically it was like one through ten Skyrunner athletes at on at least on the short course. And uh, you know, I'd uh I'll have to give shit to some of the you know American teammates because they had no idea who Frederick was, they know he'd no idea who Manuel was, you know, it's like these heavy, heavy hitters on the international scene who, you know, crushed it at worlds and uh yeah, I think kind of took the Americans by surprise a little bit. Um and the course too was pretty technical and pretty steep, so it was probably favored them a little bit more than someone like Eli Hemming, who's obviously like one of the fastest 50k runners in the world, but maybe not as good on the the technical terrain. So um yeah, it was it was fun just for me personally, being someone who's really into skyrunning to go to that race and um see everyone get get kind of shocked by the course and the competition. Um so yeah, that was really fun. And then for me personally, it was uh exciting time to be representing my country for the first time um at that level. So it was special to be around a bunch of different Kiwi teammates, um, see them compete and have success. Uh and I think at the end of the day, New Zealand was I think ended up placing 15th overall, sort of men and women combined. Um so I felt like that was a Great performance for us considering the amount of support the New Zealand team gets is basically nothing. We get a cat that we have to pay for, we have to pay for all our travel. There is some uh help from uh the admin uh like Athletics New Zealand to get some like we had a coach or a couple of people out there like helping us, um, which was awesome. But uh, you know, at the end of the day, the amount of support that we get's nothing compared to even what the US athletes were provided, um, and absolutely nothing compared to what like the Spanish, French, and Italian teams are are given. So that was cool to to see, and New Zealand is obviously uh punches above their weight in a lot of ways. Um, and I think trial running was no exception. We showed up and raced hard and we also partied really hard at DMs. It was a good time. Yeah, we we had a rowdy, rowdy night waiting. We had I think the very last finisher of the long course uh was this Kiwi, and uh she finished, you know, well into the night, but we were all there waiting for her, and we got a few drinks from the local uh supermarket or whatever and just had a good time out there. So yeah, it was it was so fun. I had a great time with everyone and getting to know all the Kiwi trail runners and um yeah. And you know, also it was fun to hang out with like Noah and Adam and Gene were all out of worlds too. So I also got to hang out with some of my close friends from the States there. Um so it was a great experience.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever think, I mean, how do you feel about the result, dude? Uh did you ever think in a million years like this guy who goes to Adam's State and then you know kind of quits the team to go pursue mountain running? You know, your story has come such a long way, and now you're top 25 in the world at this discipline. It's been really cool, both as a fan and a friend of yours, to see you kind of just grow in the last, you know, since we started the podcast, even to have these conversations with you and watch you develop and grow as this athlete, um, to have the season that you had and then go finish, you know, top 25 in the world. Uh, how do you feel about that? Is that is that a little weird?
SPEAKER_02:Like um, yeah, it was sort of it was always the the dream, right? You wanted to work towards something like that. Um, representing your country is uh something so special. And uh I feel like when I look back on my trail running, mountain running career in like 50 years, I'll look back on that moment quite fondly. Um and it's special too. Like um, I think my parents were pretty psyched that I had a New Zealand uniform and just all those things. It's all really special. Um I think the race itself was maybe like not exactly what I had envisioned. I was hoping for a little bit more out of it. But um yeah, at the end of the day, it's I can't be upset with that placement considering who who lined up that day. Um most races you wouldn't be too psyched with 26th place, but at the World Champs that year, it was definitely a performance I was proud of. Um so yeah, it was um a great uh a great chance to like race on that stage. Um and I'm super fortunate that I had the opportunity to do so. Uh especially on a course like that. I think worlds can kind of go either way. The course doesn't always maybe play into the strengths of a mountain, like a true mountain runner, but this one definitely did. So it was even bonus bonus uh for me to get to race that course as well at Worlds.
SPEAKER_01:Uh 2027 crossed your mind at all with South Africa, because I feel like that should be a pretty technical course, I would assume. I mean, I would hope.
SPEAKER_02:I think so, yeah. Um honestly I would uh I would hope that Athletics New Zealand provided a little bit more support um if I were to go back to the world champs. Um because as it stands right now, that's a really expensive trip. And the way they do it is Athletics New Zealand kind of sorts all the accommodation out for you and then invoices you for that amount. So, you know, it would be cheaper if I just stayed at an Airbnb or got my own hotel room, but instead you're kind of like you're not forced to do it, but it makes the most sense to do what Athletics New Zealand kind of tells you to do. But it's not cheap, and uh South Africa would be no exception. Um so I would consider doing it again. I would love to race in South Africa. I think Cape Town was a perfect place for the world champs. Um but uh yeah, I'll see. I know Athletics New Zealand is starting to put a lot more emphasis on trail running. Um I think they see the value in it, and um, so I'd hope that the level of support grows a little bit more, or else um I don't know that I would I would do it again if if I had to purchase my own uniform and everything else again. It's kind of like a slap in the face. You're competing for your country, but you're not really being appreciated.
SPEAKER_01:So you know there's athletes like yourself. Uh Caitlin Felder is a Kiwi too, right? Caitlin Felder is a Kiwi too, right? She's from New Zealand, I believe.
SPEAKER_02:Caitlin Felder. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was on the Kiwi too.
SPEAKER_01:What I'm trying to get at is like, is there more athletes that maybe could speak up and and maybe get a direct line to uh you know to Athletics New Zealand to maybe have that dialogue to see if you know for 2027 they can increase their uh you know uh increase their app.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I know it's been an issue because like uh Ruth Croft was a silver medalist at the I think the short course um at World Champs years ago. And she had a similar issue with Athletics New Zealand um being not being very supportive of their athletes. Um and I think Caitlin ended up going to Worlds because she lives in uh Andorra, so it was really close for her. Um she was a last minute addition to that team um because I think she just didn't have anything else going on and she thought she could just drive over. And that's what she did, she just drove from her home to to Spain to uh Can Franc and and raced. So um yeah, I think once you've kind of gotten a a taste of what athlete support should look like, paying your own way to world championships feels kind of like ridiculous. So um and of course your sponsors don't really care about the world champs, it is just you're doing it like for your country is the reason to do it. Um so yeah. It wouldn't take much support, it would just mean Athletics New Zealand gives a little bit more like just the just knowing that they cared a little bit to provide you a uniform even that's would make a huge difference. So I can agree more.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, well, I 2027, while it is not that far away, hopefully that's something can be done and there can be more uh just we have a long ways to go between over the next few years, too. I mean, just what you said too, in the sense where a lot of contracts now, there's very few, if not any, sponsor bonuses built in for world champs. It's never a conversation. Uh because what you're wearing a pair of Sportiva shoes, but it's not like we can wear that on our shirt. So yeah, it gets kind of weird. It's hopefully more can be done in the long term to uh legitimize that and have more conversations. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's shift gears in a world. I want to I want to talk to you about your season, dude. Outside of that, you had three Cirque Series podiums, you won Aliaska. I got to hang out with you at uh Targy, which was great. I want to talk to you about Targy because there was a particular, not that race result, but you said the FKT on T1Ot, which I thought was super legit and super overlooked for the year. And I feel like not enough people had a conversation around that. Um for the listeners that might not know what T who what T1 is as far as the peak, maybe talk about its distance, talk about the peak, its prominence, and what it is, um, and why you chose specifically that peak to go absolutely hammer down just a all-star time.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, thanks, dude. Um I will say with the with T1, I'm not sure that I have the fastest time. There are there are rumors circulating that someone from uh actually I don't know if they're Salt Lake based, but I heard it from someone from Salt Lake that it had gone under two hours, trailhead trailhead. Uh and I was like, Oh, what did I do it in? It was like 2-0. 2-0 something. 203. So I won't uh I won't claim the speed record for that one because I don't know 100% that it was the fastest time, but it's at least the fastest recorded time or whatever. So um, but that was uh doing T1ot um was sort of like both uh uh like personal challenge. I wanted to go really hard on that mountain because it's so aesthetic. It's just straight from the valley floor, rises almost 7,000 feet. Um, it's such a steep, iconic mountain. Um and uh at the time I was sort of training for and wanting to go for the grand Teton FKT, but um it wasn't in the cards with the weather um and racing schedule, and I honestly don't know that I was fit enough to break Mikelino's time. So um yeah, it was uh cool to be out there and give T Wanot a rip. Um and it was also like a bit of a I don't know, this maybe I'll regret saying this, but like an F U to everyone that was so like anti-Mikelino cutting switchback because I cut every single switchback I possibly could have on T Winot. And uh that was received with mixed reviews, but um T Winot isn't like a recognized uh trail, so it was all fear game. But uh yeah, people probably would take issue with that, but um yeah, I just cut every trail on T Wenot, and that's what made it so fast.
SPEAKER_01:So you uh one of the things I I found really interesting and compelling in your Strava post is you said something very compelling, and it it just uh mountain running is alive and well, and uh I felt like that was a very I don't know, different athletes have different forms of expression, and I thought that was a very valid expression of what mountain runners in the United States, particularly Michelino, had been going through and what a lot of athletes go through, especially for someone like you that you know has the all the ability in the world to go for that record, and now there's all this political bullshit around it and all this stuff that's like very frustrating. Um, but the fact that you won for T1, I found it to be very interesting, and I thought that peak was very neat. I've never been on that one particularly. I plan on going for going on it this summer of T1. Is it a lot of like fifth-class climbing and scrambling? What yeah, because it's it's hard to tell based off of like looking at the maps and watching YouTube videos on it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's um a definitely a scramble. It's a technical mountain. Um if you climb it via the east face, you um end up doing a lot of fourth class scrambling. Um I'd say the challenge with that route is the the route finding can be a little tedious um and challenging. Uh but if you go sort of the way of least resistance, it never exceeds fourth class. Um but that being said, it's really, really easy to all of a sudden find yourself on some sort of fifth tricky, weird move, um, fifth class move. So um yeah, if uh if you're out there and I'm out there, I'd take we could go up it together for either out there.
SPEAKER_01:If you go back to Target this year, I'm gonna go out probably a few days before the race and then hang out for like a week after. Just because like every time I go out for the race, like I never really get to explore much of that zone. And there's so many things I want to do. So uh yeah, 100% I'll be out there for at least a week afterwards to go play in the mountains and see what's see what's happening.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, awesome. I think I mean I don't know for sure if I'll be out for Tahi, but um regardless, getting out to the Tetons at some point in the summer's always uh on my to-do list every summer. So yeah, there's so many cool things to do. The rock is generally really good out there. Um, so the scrambling is super, super fun.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think you'll try to go back one of these days and try to go for the grand? Or do you think that's like uh because I feel it's the reason I bring it up is because you're one of the few people residing in the country right now with the ability to go do that and and get that record. Like it's it's within reach for someone like you. Um yeah, like I feel like it'd be obviously for people that don't know, the weather was abysmal last year in the time frame that you were trying to go for it. Um but yeah, I'd love to see you go back and give it a try, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's always it's always in the back of my mind. Um last year, I did put I did go out there for a solid two weeks to eventually give it a an effort. Um the problem I ran into was I got out there, I knew I needed 10 days to acclimatize to the altitude and get re-familiar with the route. And by the time that happened, it was it was storming, it snowed up there, um, so the mountain got shut down for like not that long. It probably was only like three or four days. Um, but at that point I was kind of like getting ready to leave for um some other races, and uh it didn't didn't pan out the way I'd hoped. Um so it's challenging. Uh you know, it almost takes living in you just need to dedicate like a month to being out there, honestly, to not only scout the route because there are so many options and nuances to that route. Um I remember being up there one day and talking to Mikelino about like uh a way, a certain route that I was gonna take up high on the mountain. He I remember he just looked at me and was like, why would you take that way? That's so slow. I was like, I didn't know there was another option. So there are a lot of things like that. You just have to be out there for a long time and figure it all out. But uh yeah, I think uh you need at least a month to be out there and um at least now. Michelino set the bar really high, Jane obviously set the bar really high uh for the woman's FKT. So it's it takes a lot to break that time. It always has, but even more so now. Um so yeah, I would have to go out there with a real intention to break it. Um I don't know if that'll be this year, but man, it's always it's always on my mind.
SPEAKER_01:Because like I said, you're one of the few uh the few people in the country that has that rare ability to be able to go do it, the the mix of skills. So it would be cool. What so on that topic then, what do you think you what do you what do you have planned for 2026? I know we're still early out, it's like first few days in February. Yeah. Uh what are you thinking so far as far as like a goals?
SPEAKER_02:Um that's also sort of up in the air at the moment. I'm figuring that all out at the moment. Um but I think one a few things are for sure. I will definitely be out for the Mount Marathon uh in the last in Seward. Um so that's like a there's no way I'm gonna pass up that opportunity to to do that race. Um and then I think um I'll probably go back to Minotaur. Um I'd really like to do the Beast of Big Creek Sky Race in Washington. Um and um because obviously that's part of the Sky Runner World series this year, so having a quote unquote home race uh in the Skyrunner World series is always something you want to take advantage of.
SPEAKER_01:Um that place just looks really sweet too, running out there.
SPEAKER_02:Um and um then yeah, I don't know. I I am currently signed up for both Speed Goat and uh the Whistler 50k with the intent to make it to OCC next year. Um I don't know. I think I'm leaning a little bit more towards racing Whistler. Um I think that's the sort of tail end of August. Um so yeah, we'll see. There's also a chance I do a full Skyrunner World Series circuit, so that would have me out in France all of May. And then back in um uh I'd go to Spain for the tail end of the season. Um, but yeah, it's all sort of up in the air right now. I'm waiting on uh the Skyrunner contract to come through um to see what they provide me with in terms of travel support, um, and then also just some various life things that I'm trying to suss out at the moment. So yeah, nothing's guaranteed, but except nothing's guaranteed except for uh Mount Marathon. There's no no way I'll miss that race.
SPEAKER_00:I'm so excited to go see you do that.
SPEAKER_01:Like I so it's funny, I've been talking to Nollie Strabel a lot about doing um like we're gonna do some preview episodes for it, and we're gonna we're gonna really just really try to put it more on the global slash like North American map. Because I think for the Alaskan running scene just seems to be so special. And uh yeah, I just I want more people to learn about it. It's such an interesting race. So to have you out there, I think is gonna be very cool. Uh, you know, for um, you know, as far as what the uh field is gonna look like. So it's gonna be that'll be super interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I know I'm I'm so psyched for that race. Um if it's anything like Aliaska, it's gonna be awesome. And uh Mount Marathon just seems like it's it's that race. I think I saw the that video that Solomon put out years ago with Killian and Ricky Gates, and ever since I've just been really psyched on that uh that style of running in Alaska's really cool. Um so somebody's gonna be David Norris before I think my my time at Allies go was at least a minute under his or a minute slower than his course record there. So man, he's he's a beast on the especially on those really, really steep climbing grades. He's so good. Um so yeah, that'd be fun. Hopefully, I don't know if he's racing, I would assume he's racing out marathon this year. I don't know. But he's a quiet, yeah. Hopefully, he's a quiet one.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna get him back on the show because he's uh he'll like do a bunch of stuff and then disappear and then re reappear like when the season comes and become the US national men's what is he? He was the not running champ last year. So uh interesting. Um interesting, dude. All right, so that I mean that's a great calendar. What do you think about Beast of Big Creek? Are you stoked that we finally got one in the like stateside? I I mean I was a little upset to see Minotaur fall off because I really was interested in going to do that race on like a I was hoping that we'd have like a global audience, um which is still an amazing race. But what do you think about Beasts of Big Creek and kind of all the things surrounding that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I'm really excited for it. I think the the race director, I listened to your podcast with him and he seems like a really stoked, excited person, and so that's sort of what yeah, what it takes to be part of the series is someone with the that kind of level of passion. Um and so I think regardless of what uh happens, that race is going to be exciting and fun and be a good showcase of skyrunning in the US. Um I'm excited that it's in Washington because I think that's probably one of the few places where sort of true skyrunning can happen in the lower 48. Seems like Washington, Montana, and I guess Colorado. A few spots in Colorado where you have like some true sky races happening or like potential for that. So um, no, the beast of Big Creek is gonna be really, really fun. Um, I think I was looking on Ultra sign up the other day, and there's already like a slew of really fast guys and girls that have signed up for that race. Um and then uh obviously whoever signs up through Skyman will be will be out there as well. Um so it's gonna be fast and competitive. Um I had uh my buddy Corey said he had run that peak before and he said it was really fun. Sort of seems to be this gradual, easy trail that leads into some pretty steep narrowly terrain. So I think the the back half of that race will be pretty sweet. Um and uh yeah, it's gonna be exciting. I hope a lot of Europeans come out for it. It was nice to see that Skyrunner this year requires that you do a race outside of Europe uh to count towards your overall season points. And so I hope that a lot of the European uh crushers decide that Beast of Big Creek is an event they want to do. I think I saw that um the Peruvian runner um was his name. Uh is it Jose Manuel? His last name is Manuel. I can't remember his first name. Um, but he's like one of the better skyrunners in the world and an absolute crusher. And so he's gonna be out for that race. Um and uh yeah, it should be exciting. Um do you think you'll be out there for it, or I know you'll be covering it, obviously.
SPEAKER_01:But say, I don't know. Because it's August, right? So I feel like um like that side of my schedule is completely free. Like I I literally like purposely cleared the schedule from July 11th onward to like the end of August. So it's like maybe if there's uh like it's very hard for me to pass up an opportunity to go um like do uh commentary and like be there, boots on the ground, um, you know, either potentially racing or at least from a coverage perspective as well. I think there is very compelling. Because it is the first like legit Skyrunner series race that we've had in a very long time in the United States. Um, I don't know, we'll see. A lot of right now I'm trying to figure like finalize stuff with sponsors as far as uh race coverage for Broken Arrow, The Rut, definitely be there, Speed Goat, um, and then the the U.S. Mountain Running Champs at Sun of P. So there's a possibility. Um we'll see. That's the best thing I can. Because it's like trying to find this balance right now of like I want to be really selfish with my time to be able to still have time in the summer to get out in the mountains and train and do all the things I want to do at a very high level. Um, but also be able to do the commentary stuff and and do the coverage stuff and try to find this perfect balance, which I know I'm not gonna find a perfect balance, but at least try to try to balance. Yeah. Uh so we'll see. It's gonna be interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's tricky. You sort of wearing two hats being such a vocal person in the sport, but then also an athlete yourself. It's hard to hard to find the the balance there at all.
SPEAKER_01:Created something. Yeah. Uh yeah, I might I might regret it.
SPEAKER_02:We'll we'll see.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's awesome. Um yeah, dude, we'll see. It's gonna be the season. I mean, so the my conversation for with for where I wanted to take this was I'm hearing more and more chatter around like regional series for Skyrunning that they're trying to put out into the world, and that I guess will soon be announced probably by the time March rolls around. Um, and there'll be a lot of like household-named races that'll be in a part of this regional series that they're trying to put together uh for Skyrunning. But it's just it's very interesting to me. Do you do you think there's enough of an audience in North America that this that something like that can survive? Because I really do. I think it it can be a big thing in in North America.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think um well, I think skyrunning just as a sport has grown tremendously in the last few years in the US. I know when I had first signed up for Meet the Minotaur, I remember talking to a buddy of mine and uh I was living in Flag stuff at the time, and he had no idea what the Skyrunner World Series was. Um and I feel like that narrative has shifted quite a bit to now I think everyone more or less knows what Skyrunner World World Series is, knows what it means. Um and so I think it's a golden opportunity in the US to really push it and showcase it. Um so it's exciting that there's you know chat over a national series. I don't know anything about that, so I don't know what's besides the like three races that have been three or four races that have been mentioned so far. Um what is it like Minotaur, Broken Arrow, the Alaska, creating, and then uh Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. There's one more. It's in the Northeast.
SPEAKER_02:There's one on the East Coast, uh, uh there'll be another one on the East Coast.
SPEAKER_01:Um, that I heard about Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Um so yeah, I think it's really exciting. I hope that um, you know, with anything at the end of the day, especially now what it takes is like a sponsor to put up substantial prize money. Um I feel like now you're at the point where you know you've got uh ACG and Brooks putting out these huge purses um for the you know short course uh short trail events. Um if you know Meryl wants to have a big skyrunning scene, or if you know Skyrunning wants to make it in the US, it has to uh match that almost, or be there needs to be some sort of incentive for the athlete. Um so you can't just have a series now and just expect people to come like Cirque Series is successful because they put up a lot of prize money, and um at least in terms of being still like relevant in the pro running side of things. Um and I think right now what skyrunning needs is probably that elite athlete presence in order to boost the popularity and in eyes on those events. Um because it's it's one of the things like I feel like without it skyrunning's a little too niche for the general public still. Um so you're not gonna get the like mass sign-up that you would for a Cirque series race. And so the thing that Skyrunning is so good at is being really spectator, uh, or it's like really intriguing to watch video recaps of a sky race. Um, and so you sort of need the elite athletes there to showcase what you can do on those courses. Um, so yeah, hopefully there's a lot of incentive and um prize money and everything else for for elite athletes to show up. Um, because otherwise I feel like it would fizzle out pretty quickly if there wasn't any of that. Um what's your take?
SPEAKER_01:Now like ACG coming in and making massive investments in the sport and all these brands throwing throwing cash. Are you are you like as an athlete? Like I want as many opportunities for athletes to make as much money as possible because this the athletes aren't really killing it in the sport, one and two. It's uh it's a finite lifestyle in the sense where you know it comes and goes very easily. It's not a long life as an athlete. Um what's your take on on kind of this evolution as as we've seen more and more money kind of get invested in the sport in the last really 12 months, even?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um yeah, it's really exciting. Um I feel like for me personally, I don't think I'm gonna see any of that. Uh at least not like personally, I don't feel excited by it because I don't think I'm gonna benefit from racing the broken arrow 28 or 23k. That's that's definitely not my not my event. Um but I think for um for the people that like uh my girlfriend Maya, she signed up for the Broken Arrow 23k, and she's someone that could have a legitimate chance of being in the top three there. So I think for that sort of group of athletes that are still really fast, um, it's extremely exciting. Uh I think yeah, I wish of course some of that money went it was like instead of a 30k prize burst, I maybe wish it was dispersed a little bit more evenly across events. Um ACG uh uh you know uh being that they're claiming to be some sort of like mountain apparel brand that could sponsor a more mountainous race, but uh this is, you know, an opinion that I hold that isn't held by many others. I I I'm totally aware of that. Um but yeah, I just I hope that like there seems to be this continued trend that trail races are getting shorter and more runnable. Um and I hope and now that there's all this money being thrown at those that style of racing, it's like a little worrisome that the trend is just gonna continue to go that way. Um and then races like you know, we have races like uh the Tallyride Mountain Runner in the US. That legitimate mountain running that just gets kind of like sidelined by all these other events. Um so it would be cool if a company like Arterics came to the table and because they sponsor that race, if they came to the table and they said, hey, we want to throw a bunch of money at this, get a really stacked field. Um, I think that would be awesome. Uh like the potential's there, it's just that you know, Nike doesn't Nike's not a mountain running brand. Like that's not their their avenue at all. They're trying to sell, you know, road trail shoes. Um, and that's they're doing that like really well right now. Um so yeah, I don't know. I hope it's sustainable though. That like my thought on it.
SPEAKER_01:It's like I think that amount of money for this year will happen, but I'm very curious to see if that happens three years from now. Just because you can't track an ROI on that. How am I supposed to sell$130,000 worth of shoes and be able to track that in the like mathematically? To me, at least that I don't think that makes sense, but what do I know? I hope they uh everybody makes money, whatever. But like at the same time, I just I wonder if it's more so just a flashy, flashy thing in the short term.
SPEAKER_02:It could be. I all of a sudden, I mean it I think there was always this sentiment that if Nike wanted to be the biggest company in trail running, they had the finances to do it whenever they wanted to. And I think right now that's this is the time. I think they they saw the value in trail running. They obviously, you know, they picked up someone like Jen Lichter, who's dominating the best, you know, short trail runner in the world. Um so uh, you know, they're throwing a lot of money at the sport, clearly, right now, and whether or not it's uh flash in the pan, I think is that's to be determined. But um yeah, throwing thirty thousand dollars all of a sudden at one race seems pretty bold. And clearly, I mean the marketing they're doing, everything else, it's like pretty clear that they're they're trying to make a big um big name for themselves in the trail running world. Um so yeah, we'll we'll see how it pans out. But um yeah, I don't know. I'm pretty removed from all that all that stuff. I don't know, I don't know what their return on investment would look like, but I'm sure there'll be more people probably wanting to buy Nike trailrunning shoes, but at the same time, I feel like people in trail running are pretty admin on the tried and true. Like everyone's got their brand. Not many people venture outside of it. Um and like, yeah, I don't know. I would never I'd never wear a Nike trail shoe. I'd never wear an Eddie Dash trail shoe. Like that's not not for me, but for a lot of people, it's probably exactly what they're looking for.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't think styles, you know, I mean in the sense where style for what particular type of uh discipline that you you know you run in. Like for you, you are the closest thing to a full-on mountain runner that you're gonna find, you know, and running in what is the agravic speed, whatever, like down a mountain or up a mountain, like it's not gonna work for you, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, big time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Do you grab it?
SPEAKER_02:No, but I mean at the end of the day, it's just it's exciting to see um see the sport growing so rapidly. It's it's cool to be a part of it.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting too, because like now I feel like we've just like jettisoned now, especially with Cam and Anna going to the Olympics in a few weeks, and you know, that puts a lot of eyes as well on the trail running space, and and get at least get some conversation around that. And I'm starting to see more and more articles around trail running in the Olympics and this, that, and the other. It's I I worry personally that like we're just gonna get jettisoned on this rocket ship to the moon, and you know, there's still a lot of really soul level aspects to our sport. It's a soul sport more than above anything, at least I think so. Um, so I wonder how we'll be able to grapple with multiple like factions of the sport and multiple parties wanting to do different things with it as we continue to professionalize and as it changes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I think at some point there's gotta be some sort of real well, I don't know. I was gonna say governing body in mountain trail running. Just uh because sponsors right now are really they sort of have all the control. I think in a lot of other sports there is some sort of like governing body that makes sure that there are certain rules and requirements to what a course looks like and whatever else. But in trail running right now, it is kind of the Wild West in the sense that if you have enough money, you can kind of claim the narrative. And I think Nike's doing that right now. And um uh yeah, with well, obviously Hoker has done that big time with you know all their U-Team devices and everything else. So it's kind of like uh it's tricky to navigate because um yeah, if you're not um if you're not like a Hoka athlete, it's tough. If you're not a Solomon athlete, it's tough in the Golden Trail series. Like it it's annoying that um if you're uh aligned with a with a sponsor that's uh sponsoring certain events, you get like this upper hand almost. Um like for me, you know, I if I wanted to run the level 100, it's just like a click of a button away. I could just do it if I wanted to, which is unfair, it's like shouldn't be the case. Um but I still I wish there was more just like a general if you're good at running, you know, it's an open door, like come race this race because you're good, but instead it's kind of like this. Uh if you're associated with a certain company, you get like uh this upper hand to go to a race or something, or you get more support. Um so yeah, if there was more of a governing body that was unbiased and not sponsored by Nike or or Trix or La Sportiva or whatever company, it might be a little bitter for everyone as a whole, but right now that's certainly not the case.
SPEAKER_01:You know something really important here. And like in and this is something I actually meant to bring up to you before is the ISF, which is the governing body more or less for skyrunning. They designate courses, they have course certifications and all these different things. And whether people agree with them or not, it's still a governing body, governing aspect of a sport that has like its own thing. So I don't know. Like I think we do we definitely need some things, and especially with the anti-doping as well. We need a governing body on some sort of framework.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, uh yeah. I mean that's a yeah, that's such a problem in the sport as well. I know that's one of the biggest critiques with uh with Skyrunning is that there's no no doping control. They leave it up to the race directors, and nine times out of the ten, the race directors don't have the finances to implement a doping control protocol at their races. Um and ultimately, like that doesn't really work. You need out of competition testing and everything else. Um, which I think would be kind of funny for uh trail runners because there are so many nomadic trail runners that would constantly have wear routes issues. But um yeah, I think uh yeah, that's another huge problem. I think now if you know people are making$30,000 off of a race or you know, 50k bonus for winning Western States or UTMB, whatever else, it's kind of at the point where it seems insane that there isn't more doping control. Because now there's a legitimate reason to do in trail running. You know, if you are someone who's like living in poverty or just, you know, trying to make ends meet, doping seems like a pretty reasonable thing to want to do. Um if you feel like you're never gonna get caught. Um so it's kind of a scary, scary time to be in trail running. Um luckily, like there are some doping control. There's some uh testing being done, like at UT and B races, and like Cirrus and Al is probably like the best race for doping control. And I did see it happening at Worlds, but um, you know, they're only testing the top, you know, five athletes most of the time. And it's right after competition, which is like the worst time to test for athletes doping. So yeah, there's a lot that can be done. Um and with the amount of money being put into the sport now, it seems like it's the right time to do that. But yeah, who knows? Again, it's a problem because like I'm sure Nike and Solomon don't want uh more doping control in the sport. Solomon clearly doesn't. Like that's hurt them in the past big time. Uh so yeah, I'm sure those companies aren't like advocating for it. But if they're the ones who are the biggest investors in the sport, then they're gonna have all the say power. So that's where you know, some sort of governing body would be helpful to say, okay, you know, XYZ race has to have uh or if you're if you're signed up for the uh Golden Trail World Series, you get put into the pool of athletes getting tested. Um yeah, it seems like a no-brainer, but uh obviously there's a lot of money that has to go into that as well. But if track and field can make it work, trail running can as well.
SPEAKER_01:It just needs like a billionaire, someone to just give us tons of money. Yeah, yeah, just just a nice billionaire that feels compelled to uh you know, to just pass it down and hook us up and nice, give give us a framework.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, a nice billionaire seems like an oxymoron though. I don't think we'll get a nice billionaire to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely not. Well, uh yeah, if the podcast ever, you know, just takes over, dominates, we'll uh yeah, we'll we'll be the first one guess, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Jackson, read about an hour, dude. I don't want to take up uh too much of your afternoon. Um want to say thank you again so much. Looking forward to seeing you again this summer and hanging out, sharing a beer. Um, yeah, man. Thanks for coming on and uh always appreciate our conversations.
SPEAKER_02:Great to talk to you, man. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Cool, we're done. Stop. Sweet. Awesome, dude. What'd you guys think? Oh man, uh, I want to thank Jackson so much for coming on the show. As always, giant fan. Um, guys, the best way you could support him, give him a follow on Instagram. Uh, you can also find him on Strava. Get his uh Instagram at J R Cole with a double E. That's J-A-Y-R-C-O-L-E-E. Give him a follow on Instagram, and you can find him at Jackson Cole on Strava as well. Both will be linked in the show notes. Uh, guys, if you've been enjoying the podcast, please give us a five-star rating and review. And if you haven't already, please tune in to our new show series that just dropped with Rachel Tomaichek, the Substack, which is going to be all the short trail news you guys can possibly get your hands on. Um, everything from free agency moves to race calendars to race updates, podium performances, performances in general, course records, you name it. We got it. Um, definitely tune into that. Like, share, and subscribe. Um, like I said, if you've been enjoying this, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. Hit that subscribe button on YouTube. And uh, yeah, we're growing this thing, people. We're we're we're we're moving along. Um, thanks for tuning in. I've got some great episodes coming down the pipeline. We've got some new reveals with Julian Carr, um, the founder of the Cirque series. He's gonna be coming on this week for some big news. Um, and on top of that, uh, we've got another fun one with uh friend, coach, athlete, Mr. Mickelino Censeri. So all good stuff. And uh yeah, guys, thanks for tuning in.
